WEBVTT - Michael Stipe 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:23.516 Pushkin. Hey y'all, Today we have a conversation between old 0:00:23.556 --> 0:00:27.076 friends Rick Rubin and Michael Stipe. Along with this former 0:00:27.076 --> 0:00:30.716 Georgia based band RM, Stipe helped to popularize what was 0:00:30.796 --> 0:00:34.876 once called alternative music. With his open, arted lyrics. Stipe 0:00:34.876 --> 0:00:38.276 gave voice to the sensitive and misunderstood among us with 0:00:38.356 --> 0:00:42.036 hits like the One I Love, Everybody Hurts, and Losing 0:00:42.076 --> 0:00:45.836 My Religion. On today's episode, Michael plays Rick a new 0:00:45.876 --> 0:00:49.556 song of his called Future If Future, produced by Andy LeMaster. 0:00:50.436 --> 0:00:53.036 The song, as he explains, was released in partnership with 0:00:53.076 --> 0:00:55.796 Earth Percent, which gives artists a simple way to support 0:00:55.836 --> 0:01:00.476 groups fighting climate change, something Stipe cares deeply about. Michael 0:01:00.476 --> 0:01:03.436 Stipe also talks about the upcoming solo album he's recording 0:01:03.636 --> 0:01:07.276 and how he always intended to be super famous and 0:01:07.356 --> 0:01:12.516 then what it was like when it actually happened. This 0:01:12.756 --> 0:01:15.636 is broken record, line of notes, but a digital age. 0:01:15.756 --> 0:01:20.956 I'm justin mission. Here's Rick Rubin and Michael Stipe. Hello. Rick, 0:01:21.276 --> 0:01:23.156 it has been a very long time since I've seen you, 0:01:23.196 --> 0:01:25.396 and you look great. You too. How long have you 0:01:25.436 --> 0:01:28.036 lived in New York? It depends on which government agency 0:01:28.116 --> 0:01:30.956 you talked to, but I've been here since nineteen eighty seven, 0:01:31.156 --> 0:01:34.276 I see, do you ever go back to Georgia. I 0:01:34.316 --> 0:01:37.236 spent most of lockdown in Georgia with my mother, my sisters, 0:01:37.276 --> 0:01:40.596 and a few very close my family. I had some 0:01:40.676 --> 0:01:43.236 vulnerable people in my family, so I spent most of 0:01:43.236 --> 0:01:46.676 lockdown there, and then starting last summer summer of twenty one, 0:01:47.156 --> 0:01:50.556 was able to travel to our home in Berlin because 0:01:50.596 --> 0:01:52.876 I now lived between New York and Berlin, and then 0:01:52.916 --> 0:01:54.836 and then came back when things got bad again with 0:01:55.076 --> 0:01:57.956 a delta. When you're in Georgia, is that at home, 0:01:58.196 --> 0:02:01.276 in the house that you grew up in? No, that's 0:02:01.316 --> 0:02:03.956 a misnomber that I grew up in Georgia. My father 0:02:04.036 --> 0:02:06.476 was in the army, so I traveled my whole life 0:02:06.476 --> 0:02:08.356 with him. He was in Vietnam twice, he was in 0:02:08.436 --> 0:02:11.596 Korea once during my lifetime, and we would pick up 0:02:11.596 --> 0:02:13.996 and move every couple of years. So I was born 0:02:13.996 --> 0:02:17.436 in Georgia. I returned to Georgia when I was eighteen 0:02:17.796 --> 0:02:19.916 because my father retired. He and my mom moved to 0:02:19.956 --> 0:02:22.756 Athens because there's a college there that my uncle went to. 0:02:22.836 --> 0:02:26.076 He was this great he is this incredible activist and 0:02:26.316 --> 0:02:29.676 spent the sixties and seventies in Athens as an activist 0:02:29.716 --> 0:02:32.036 at the University of Georgia. My mom and dad liked 0:02:32.036 --> 0:02:34.356 the sound of it, and so they moved there in 0:02:34.436 --> 0:02:37.036 nineteen seventy eight when I was eighteen, and I followed them. 0:02:37.076 --> 0:02:40.716 I was living with a punk rock band in Granite City, Illinois, 0:02:40.916 --> 0:02:43.276 and I ran out of money and I moved with 0:02:43.276 --> 0:02:45.396 my tail between my legs. I moved to Athens, Georgia, 0:02:45.676 --> 0:02:47.996 thinking that it was a hippie cowtown and that I 0:02:48.236 --> 0:02:50.636 didn't fit in because I was just, you know, urban 0:02:50.676 --> 0:02:52.836 punk rocker. And it turns out that one of the 0:02:52.836 --> 0:02:55.476 most incredible punk rock scenes in America was happening right 0:02:55.636 --> 0:02:57.516 under my nose in Athens, Georgia, and I became a 0:02:57.556 --> 0:03:00.156 part of it. Unbelievable. What are the odds of that 0:03:00.356 --> 0:03:03.076 being the case. It's just a remarkable You would never 0:03:03.116 --> 0:03:04.836 guess it. Also that it would be, you know, the 0:03:04.836 --> 0:03:06.316 band that kicked it off, of course, of the B 0:03:06.436 --> 0:03:08.796 fifty twos. And that's a band, in my opinion, that 0:03:08.836 --> 0:03:13.116 had yet gotten their due recognition for the degree to 0:03:13.156 --> 0:03:16.876 which they altered the trajectory of contemporary music. Who with 0:03:17.156 --> 0:03:19.996 other bands in the Athens scene at that time, like 0:03:20.556 --> 0:03:23.916 post B fifty two's pre Rim, what was that window 0:03:24.476 --> 0:03:29.316 Brim would include the Method Actors and Pylon and that's 0:03:29.356 --> 0:03:31.876 about it. With Rim came a band called the Side Effects, 0:03:31.916 --> 0:03:33.676 and then a couple of other bands. There was a 0:03:33.716 --> 0:03:36.236 whole scene going on in Atlanta, but there's always been 0:03:36.236 --> 0:03:40.116 this weird thing like San Bernardino, La County kind of 0:03:40.156 --> 0:03:43.036 thing between Atlanta and Athens. There was a band called Vietnam. 0:03:43.116 --> 0:03:46.636 There there was a Ruphole's early band Ruphol and Weipole, 0:03:46.916 --> 0:03:49.996 a band called the Now Explosion, and that was They 0:03:49.996 --> 0:03:51.756 were all really fun people and we would hang out 0:03:51.756 --> 0:03:53.636 with them from time to time, but it was really 0:03:53.676 --> 0:03:55.876 Athens had its own thing going on. A lot of 0:03:55.876 --> 0:03:58.396 that had to do with Jeremy Arrows, my mentor the 0:03:58.396 --> 0:04:01.356 first really the first love of my life in a way, 0:04:01.436 --> 0:04:04.236 and he had moved from Athens where he grew up, 0:04:04.556 --> 0:04:07.836 to New York became involved in Andy Warhol's factory as 0:04:07.876 --> 0:04:11.436 a drag queen named silver Then, who Andy loved, but 0:04:11.476 --> 0:04:14.476 Paul Morrissey, who made all the movies, didn't like very much. Anyway. 0:04:14.516 --> 0:04:17.716 Andy really hung onto Silva until Jeremy decided to move 0:04:17.756 --> 0:04:21.556 back to Athens, and then he was really profoundly involved 0:04:21.556 --> 0:04:24.876 in the beginnings of the B fifty twos and helped 0:04:24.956 --> 0:04:28.396 kind of set the stage for what Athens would become 0:04:28.476 --> 0:04:31.316 as this like hotbed of new music. What was your 0:04:31.356 --> 0:04:35.956 first memory of the punk rock world in the United States? 0:04:35.956 --> 0:04:38.996 So we're not including sex pistols, We're not including like 0:04:39.036 --> 0:04:42.196 your first US experience of punk rock? What was it? Well, 0:04:42.196 --> 0:04:45.996 it predates the sex pistols. I was sent attention in 0:04:46.076 --> 0:04:51.196 high school in nineteen seventy five, and under my desk 0:04:51.356 --> 0:04:53.956 where I sat, someone had left a torn up copy 0:04:53.956 --> 0:04:57.356 of Cream magazine and there was an article written by 0:04:57.396 --> 0:05:02.196 Lisa Robinson about CBGB, and she was comparing the CBGB 0:05:02.316 --> 0:05:05.636 scene to as a black and white, scratchy TV to 0:05:05.796 --> 0:05:10.996 the technicolor, bloviating, bloated rich were better than everyone else 0:05:11.116 --> 0:05:14.796 kind of rock scene that was happening in modern America 0:05:14.836 --> 0:05:17.156 and saying, this is so much more real and so 0:05:17.236 --> 0:05:19.596 much more raw, and so much cooler, and these are 0:05:19.596 --> 0:05:21.316 the people involved in it. And there was a photograph 0:05:21.316 --> 0:05:23.756 of Patti Smith and she looked for all the world like, 0:05:23.996 --> 0:05:27.276 you know, like a vampire black and white picture. She's 0:05:27.556 --> 0:05:30.036 got her eyes wide open and I saw the picture 0:05:30.076 --> 0:05:31.796 and I was like, these are my people. And I 0:05:31.836 --> 0:05:33.396 read the article and I was like, this is it? 0:05:33.516 --> 0:05:38.036 So I wound up accidentally subscribing to the Village Voice. 0:05:38.476 --> 0:05:41.996 My sister had one of those Columbia House subscriptions where 0:05:42.116 --> 0:05:43.956 you paid a dime and you could get ten magazines 0:05:43.956 --> 0:05:46.316 for free, and the Village Voice just sounded like fun. 0:05:46.396 --> 0:05:48.716 So she asked me to pick a few magazines and 0:05:48.756 --> 0:05:51.476 I picked that one, and suddenly I was immersed into 0:05:51.916 --> 0:05:55.036 the whole CBGB scene and I started following it. And 0:05:55.076 --> 0:05:58.316 I bought Patti's first album the day that it came out, 0:05:58.396 --> 0:06:00.676 when I was fifteen years old, and I decided then 0:06:00.676 --> 0:06:03.076 and there that I was going to become a singer 0:06:03.276 --> 0:06:06.436 in a band and that was going to be my life. 0:06:06.716 --> 0:06:10.996 And I naively moved forward with that, and I outrageously 0:06:11.236 --> 0:06:14.436 and very luckily I was succeeded at it. It's unbelievable. 0:06:14.476 --> 0:06:16.876 It's a beautiful story. And was what was your experience 0:06:16.916 --> 0:06:19.596 of music prior to the punk rock experience? Did you 0:06:19.756 --> 0:06:23.276 love music from young childhood or no. I loved music, 0:06:23.316 --> 0:06:25.836 but I was only exposed really to pop radio, and 0:06:26.156 --> 0:06:28.276 the five years that are kind of probably most significant 0:06:28.316 --> 0:06:30.596 to me or the years that we spent in Texas. 0:06:30.956 --> 0:06:34.556 We had moved from Frankfort. Outside of Frankfort, Germany, where 0:06:34.796 --> 0:06:36.916 there was pop radio, but it was all German, so 0:06:36.956 --> 0:06:40.236 it was like the Beatles singing Michel Mabel in German. 0:06:40.716 --> 0:06:43.556 I distinctly remember that as a child standing in a 0:06:43.556 --> 0:06:45.716 cabbage garden, if you can believe it, it was very 0:06:45.756 --> 0:06:49.436 German in nineteen sixty seven and moving as a seven 0:06:49.556 --> 0:06:52.276 or eight year old to Texas and then hearing pop 0:06:52.356 --> 0:06:56.436 radio which included Tammy Wynette and a lot of country music, 0:06:56.436 --> 0:06:59.476 but then also the Archies and the Banana Splits and whatever. 0:06:59.636 --> 0:07:02.516 You know. The Flintstones were primetime TV at that point 0:07:02.636 --> 0:07:06.636 during the Vietnam War. Yeah, my exposure to pop radio 0:07:07.236 --> 0:07:10.476 during those those years between sixty seven and seventy three, 0:07:10.796 --> 0:07:15.196 that was really primo amazing radio in terms of music 0:07:15.196 --> 0:07:19.396 that I really clocked as as a young team. I 0:07:19.436 --> 0:07:23.156 always cite rock On by David Essex, which I then 0:07:23.476 --> 0:07:27.716 kind of extrapolated into the song drive by RIM's. It's 0:07:27.716 --> 0:07:30.396 a very very That whole album in fact, is really 0:07:30.436 --> 0:07:33.596 referencing the nineteen seventies and the song by song you 0:07:33.676 --> 0:07:36.636 can go to everybody Hurts is Nazareth the band Nazareth 0:07:36.636 --> 0:07:38.916 Guy that covers Love Hurts, which was an earlier song 0:07:39.036 --> 0:07:42.356 from I think the nineteen fifties or sixties. Drive was 0:07:42.756 --> 0:07:46.116 my homage to David Essex and rock On. The other 0:07:46.116 --> 0:07:48.836 song that I always name is my now very very 0:07:48.916 --> 0:07:50.556 very dear friend and a man who I love very much. 0:07:50.596 --> 0:07:53.156 But Elton John put up bidding in the Jets and 0:07:53.236 --> 0:07:56.596 I had never heard anything like that before. It was 0:07:57.156 --> 0:07:59.876 absolutely mind blowing to me that the production it was 0:07:59.956 --> 0:08:01.836 really and I'm talking to you about this, but it 0:08:01.876 --> 0:08:04.076 was really the production. The song is a great song, 0:08:04.276 --> 0:08:06.956 and he's of course an amazing artist, but the production 0:08:06.996 --> 0:08:09.996 of the song was so whacked out. In the production 0:08:10.036 --> 0:08:12.996 of rock On by David Essex was so whacked out. 0:08:13.196 --> 0:08:15.156 But I think that was coming out of well, you know, 0:08:15.196 --> 0:08:18.116 what was happening with the glam rock in England, early 0:08:18.196 --> 0:08:22.276 kind of Mark Bowland, very early David Bowie, Slade, the 0:08:22.276 --> 0:08:24.036 Basicity Rollers might have come a little bit later, and 0:08:24.076 --> 0:08:25.916 they were very pop of course, but I think a 0:08:25.956 --> 0:08:28.396 lot of that production stuff was coming from there. So 0:08:28.476 --> 0:08:30.516 after you saw the picture of Patty, did you go 0:08:30.636 --> 0:08:32.516 to find her? Is that? Is that? The next step. 0:08:32.516 --> 0:08:34.916 You went to New York. That was what drew you. 0:08:35.636 --> 0:08:38.036 I did not go to New York for another three years. 0:08:38.356 --> 0:08:41.036 I didn't actually meet Patty until twenty years later. Wow, 0:08:41.276 --> 0:08:44.476 nineteen ninety five that we actually met each Incredible, incredible. 0:08:44.596 --> 0:08:46.636 We can continue from nineteen seventy nine when I first 0:08:46.756 --> 0:08:48.676 came to New York. But um, you and I go 0:08:48.716 --> 0:08:51.156 back a long long way, and we all have our 0:08:51.276 --> 0:08:53.556 past that are maybe a little bit embarrassing. But I 0:08:53.596 --> 0:08:55.116 know that you used to spend a good bit of 0:08:55.156 --> 0:08:59.236 time in New York at Exterminator Chile. Yes, remember that 0:08:59.236 --> 0:09:02.116 place I loved. My two best friends worked there, Tom 0:09:02.156 --> 0:09:05.956 Gilroy and Jim McKay, both artists, and Michael Imperioli from 0:09:05.996 --> 0:09:09.076 who went on to do The Sopranos, worked there as well. 0:09:09.516 --> 0:09:13.596 But you used to go for lunch and occasionally for dinner. Yes, 0:09:13.676 --> 0:09:16.636 And the person who managed Exterminated Chili, whose name I 0:09:16.636 --> 0:09:18.276 can't think of now because I haven't thought about it 0:09:18.316 --> 0:09:21.636 since then, managed band and we ended up signing that 0:09:21.676 --> 0:09:25.156 band called Masters of Reality that were a super cool 0:09:25.396 --> 0:09:30.556 kind of psychedelic psychedelic rock band. I remember Masters of Reality. 0:09:30.596 --> 0:09:32.916 That's pretty cool. And also, but why are eight there. Wow, 0:09:33.516 --> 0:09:36.116 the Chili Peppers made a video there, I think, and 0:09:36.156 --> 0:09:39.076 that might have been before your time. Yeah, thinking about 0:09:39.556 --> 0:09:43.516 the early days of punk rock and starting your post 0:09:43.556 --> 0:09:46.036 punk band, I guess would you would you qualify rim 0:09:46.076 --> 0:09:48.756 as a post punk I think so. Yeah, Yeah, it 0:09:48.796 --> 0:09:52.476 was alternative music. Could you possibly imagine that it would 0:09:52.516 --> 0:09:57.356 become as popular and as mainstream as it ended up being? 0:09:58.116 --> 0:10:00.316 I think, to be completely honest, I think that was 0:10:00.356 --> 0:10:02.116 my intention all along. I wanted to be as big 0:10:02.156 --> 0:10:03.716 as I could possibly be. I just wanted to be 0:10:03.796 --> 0:10:07.956 really super fucking famous and not by any means necessary, 0:10:08.556 --> 0:10:10.636 which is what you find in today's culture. You know, 0:10:10.676 --> 0:10:12.956 there are people that are famous for the sake of 0:10:12.956 --> 0:10:15.676 being famous, and you know, then they become a billionaire 0:10:15.676 --> 0:10:18.596 with a makeup line or whatever. That's that's a little insulting, 0:10:18.716 --> 0:10:21.716 frankly for those of us who actually work at more 0:10:21.716 --> 0:10:25.036 than just business. But yeah, I wanted. I knew that 0:10:25.076 --> 0:10:26.996 I had something to offer. I didn't know what it 0:10:27.036 --> 0:10:29.156 was when I was nineteen or when I was fifteen, 0:10:29.676 --> 0:10:31.636 but you know, over the course of a few records, 0:10:31.676 --> 0:10:33.916 I figured out that I had a voice and that 0:10:34.396 --> 0:10:36.436 and then much later I found out that voice was 0:10:36.476 --> 0:10:39.436 quite unique and uh, and I started really enjoying the 0:10:39.436 --> 0:10:42.196 process of writing. And you know, Peter, Mike and I 0:10:42.396 --> 0:10:45.436 and Bill when he was in the band, we're the 0:10:45.476 --> 0:10:48.356 best of friends, and we supported each other, We loved 0:10:48.356 --> 0:10:51.676 each other. We kept each other alive many times, and 0:10:51.716 --> 0:10:54.796 we had a great grand adventure together, which you know, 0:10:54.836 --> 0:10:58.396 for me lasted thirty two years. The postpartum after thirty 0:10:58.436 --> 0:11:01.396 two years is let me tell you, that's something that's 0:11:01.636 --> 0:11:03.956 that's a high that you don't come down from easily. 0:11:04.396 --> 0:11:06.236 And so it took me several years to kind of 0:11:06.276 --> 0:11:08.356 I had really had to step away from music because 0:11:08.676 --> 0:11:10.836 I'm all and you know, I don't do anything halfway. 0:11:11.276 --> 0:11:14.716 I accept the defeats and the embarrassments along with the 0:11:14.756 --> 0:11:17.676 triumphs and the hit singles, but if I don't do 0:11:17.716 --> 0:11:20.796 anything halfway. And so when when ari Am finally disbanded, 0:11:21.516 --> 0:11:23.596 I needed to take a break and I needed to 0:11:23.956 --> 0:11:27.196 not think about or look at music for a long time. 0:11:27.236 --> 0:11:28.956 And it turned out it was like five years before 0:11:29.476 --> 0:11:32.116 I actually kind of accidentally fell back into it through 0:11:32.516 --> 0:11:37.076 Fisher Spooner and then working with Andy on that project, 0:11:37.316 --> 0:11:39.996 I realized that he and I had this really good 0:11:40.076 --> 0:11:43.516 rapport as as co writers, and we started working together 0:11:43.756 --> 0:11:46.116 and now we're involving all these other people. Galen Lea 0:11:46.236 --> 0:11:49.316 do you know her. She's this astonishing singer songwriter from 0:11:49.356 --> 0:11:52.636 the Minneapolis Saint Paul area. She has this astonishing, incredible, 0:11:52.676 --> 0:11:57.436 incredible presence and a very very unique voice, and our 0:11:57.516 --> 0:12:02.516 voices meld together beautifully. So so Galen is contributing on 0:12:02.556 --> 0:12:06.276 the record, some other people have stepped in to do work, 0:12:06.276 --> 0:12:08.596 and I'm just really very excited about it. It's it's 0:12:08.836 --> 0:12:11.196 it's a very different you know, I have no representation now, 0:12:11.236 --> 0:12:13.636 I have no record company. I was. I was under 0:12:13.636 --> 0:12:16.716 contract since I was twenty two years old, and now 0:12:16.836 --> 0:12:20.156 I'm sixty two years old, and uh, and I'm a 0:12:20.156 --> 0:12:22.596 free agent. I can do whatever I want, and I don't. 0:12:22.676 --> 0:12:26.436 There's nothing forcing me or making me make the choices 0:12:26.436 --> 0:12:28.076 that I make other than just wanting to create things 0:12:28.116 --> 0:12:30.876 that are beautiful and that inspired people in somewhere. And 0:12:30.956 --> 0:12:33.436 the reason I asked about what you thought was possible 0:12:33.716 --> 0:12:36.476 was I remember being in my parents house and seeing 0:12:37.236 --> 0:12:42.236 looking at the New York Times Sunday calendar section, and 0:12:42.276 --> 0:12:45.476 there was a full page ad for the police at 0:12:45.516 --> 0:12:48.316 Madison Square Garden and I remember looking at it, I think, 0:12:48.396 --> 0:12:51.156 I think this is a mistake. The Police can't play 0:12:51.156 --> 0:12:53.676 at Madison Square Garden. They play at the club's you 0:12:53.676 --> 0:12:56.036 know they play. I went to the Roxy and to 0:12:56.116 --> 0:13:00.116 the Ritz and to you know, to the Palladium. They 0:13:00.116 --> 0:13:01.956 could maybe play at the Palladium. They can't play at 0:13:01.956 --> 0:13:05.436 Madison Square Garden. That's not where That's not where the 0:13:05.476 --> 0:13:09.476 Police play. That's not where the groups that I like play. 0:13:09.516 --> 0:13:12.196 That must have been after Roxane. Yeah, you know my band, 0:13:12.436 --> 0:13:15.636 my former band Oriam, opened for the Police, actually not 0:13:15.716 --> 0:13:19.436 at Madison Scrub Garden but at Shay State when they 0:13:19.436 --> 0:13:21.676 played there. And we had the same booking agent who 0:13:21.996 --> 0:13:26.036 Mike and Bill, the drummer and bass player for former 0:13:26.116 --> 0:13:29.836 drummer and bass player knew Ian Copeland very well. They 0:13:29.836 --> 0:13:32.396 worked for him in Bacon when when he first started 0:13:32.716 --> 0:13:34.956 and he put us on this bill. It was us 0:13:34.956 --> 0:13:37.876 and Joan Jett in the Black Hearts and the Police, 0:13:38.276 --> 0:13:41.236 and we played a twenty minute set in the pouring rain. 0:13:41.596 --> 0:13:47.116 I was twenty three, I think, and Andy Warhol was 0:13:47.156 --> 0:13:50.076 there and Joan Jett came and said hello, and I 0:13:50.116 --> 0:13:52.916 was really because I loved the Runaways. I loved Joan Jett, 0:13:53.236 --> 0:13:55.396 who else? Matt Dillon came, Matt telling he was a 0:13:55.436 --> 0:13:57.876 big fan, and he came by and said hello. So 0:13:57.996 --> 0:14:00.756 that was a That was an August afternoon for us. 0:14:01.036 --> 0:14:03.316 What was it like walking out onto that stage? What 0:14:03.436 --> 0:14:06.196 was the feeling? I imagine what size places were you 0:14:06.236 --> 0:14:08.836 playing at that time? At twenty three, we were playing 0:14:08.836 --> 0:14:11.996 clubs seven people rick, nobody knew who arium was. Nobody cared, 0:14:12.236 --> 0:14:14.116 and that's fine, you know, I mean, it was just 0:14:14.676 --> 0:14:16.796 it was like throwing raw meat to dogs. You know, 0:14:16.956 --> 0:14:19.076 they had no idea who we were. We were on 0:14:19.116 --> 0:14:21.356 and off before they could get angry and like throw 0:14:21.396 --> 0:14:23.796 bottles at us. And you know, we did a really 0:14:23.836 --> 0:14:27.676 tight set. Everything was very very like Ramone speed at 0:14:27.716 --> 0:14:30.876 that point with Orium, so it actually I kind of 0:14:30.916 --> 0:14:34.956 developed a singing style because the band refused to play 0:14:35.436 --> 0:14:38.236 slower than they did. Mike was really loved the Ramones 0:14:38.276 --> 0:14:41.636 and really loved a really fast bass part, so everything 0:14:41.716 --> 0:14:44.796 was really like rockabilly Ramons kind of fast. And I 0:14:44.836 --> 0:14:46.636 got tired of singing that fast and I thought it 0:14:46.676 --> 0:14:49.516 was boring, so I started slowing down my part. It's 0:14:49.516 --> 0:14:51.236 the one thing I could do. They wouldn't slow down, 0:14:51.316 --> 0:14:53.076 so I slowed down my part, and that actually became 0:14:53.156 --> 0:14:55.676 a singing style for me. By the time we recorded 0:14:55.676 --> 0:14:58.196 our first album and a song like talk about the Passion, 0:14:58.356 --> 0:15:00.836 they were playing everything really fast and jangly, and I 0:15:00.916 --> 0:15:05.236 was just singing very very slowly and holding my vowels, 0:15:05.396 --> 0:15:09.516 and that became what that became, well, something like a install. 0:15:09.676 --> 0:15:11.756 I guess I'm so happy to see I have to say. 0:15:11.836 --> 0:15:14.636 I feel I miss you and I love you, and 0:15:14.676 --> 0:15:16.236 it's so nice to talk to you, and I feel 0:15:16.236 --> 0:15:18.156 like we I feel there are a million things for 0:15:18.196 --> 0:15:21.636 us to talk about, because everything you said is the 0:15:21.636 --> 0:15:23.956 beginning of another conversation. Like we could talk about the 0:15:23.996 --> 0:15:26.996 Village Voice alone forever. I was a pack rat when 0:15:27.036 --> 0:15:30.596 I was a kid, and I subscribe to the Village Voice. 0:15:30.596 --> 0:15:32.676 And at one point there was an entire room of 0:15:32.716 --> 0:15:35.396 my family house that I grew up in Florida ceiling 0:15:35.556 --> 0:15:39.836 the entire room of just Village Voice newspapers because I 0:15:39.876 --> 0:15:42.916 saved everyone, and I didn't save them in any way 0:15:42.916 --> 0:15:45.636 that I could refer back to them. But when my 0:15:45.676 --> 0:15:47.516 mom would say we have to throw away these newspapers, 0:15:47.556 --> 0:15:49.636 I said, you can't throw them away, because I might 0:15:49.676 --> 0:15:52.196 have to refer back to something in those There was 0:15:52.236 --> 0:15:55.116 no way for me to do that, but I wanted 0:15:55.156 --> 0:15:58.156 to know all of the information in all of these newspapers. 0:15:58.396 --> 0:16:00.916 It was our life's blood. We have a lot in 0:16:00.916 --> 0:16:04.076 common record. I'm pack rat would be a very friendly 0:16:04.156 --> 0:16:05.996 term for what we call me and my father. I'm 0:16:05.996 --> 0:16:09.756 a hoarder, and I happen to have really good taste, 0:16:09.796 --> 0:16:12.396 and I've had a fascinating life thus far. So the 0:16:12.476 --> 0:16:15.436 things that I've parted are for the most part, pretty interesting. 0:16:15.516 --> 0:16:19.756 Stacks and piles, and you know, Warhole had his time capsules, 0:16:19.756 --> 0:16:22.316 which was just cardboard boxes and he would jam everything 0:16:22.356 --> 0:16:24.516 that came to him would go into a cardboard box 0:16:24.556 --> 0:16:27.156 and that became time capsules. It was my friend Todd 0:16:27.156 --> 0:16:31.676 Everley who used to He's a photographer, very talented artist, 0:16:32.276 --> 0:16:34.876 and he worked for Vanity Fair forever. But he was 0:16:34.996 --> 0:16:39.156 called to the Warhole Museum and he was handed the 0:16:39.196 --> 0:16:43.276 task of photographing time capsules that Warhole had left when 0:16:43.276 --> 0:16:46.036 he died that had never been open before, and he 0:16:46.076 --> 0:16:49.916 found some unbelievable things. I still regard Warhole as the 0:16:49.916 --> 0:16:54.076 greatest artists of the twentieth century, the close second being 0:16:54.116 --> 0:16:59.076 Brenkouzi Brenkouzi managed to bring modernism and traditionalism together, not 0:16:59.236 --> 0:17:02.556 capital tea but small tea, traditionalism together in art, and 0:17:02.916 --> 0:17:04.236 do so in a way that was that was not 0:17:04.276 --> 0:17:08.476 only elegant, but but insanely timeless. Yeah, and felt new. 0:17:08.676 --> 0:17:12.516 It's interesting when someone can make something traditional and modern 0:17:12.996 --> 0:17:16.236 and it lives in both worlds. It still feels new. 0:17:16.356 --> 0:17:18.316 That's the thing. You see your brand Cuisy piece and 0:17:18.356 --> 0:17:20.996 you're like, what is this? This is the most elegant, 0:17:21.036 --> 0:17:23.436 the most I'm using that word a lot, but it 0:17:23.476 --> 0:17:28.316 does describe I think it's his work. I remember one 0:17:28.316 --> 0:17:30.636 of my fondest memories of things that we got to 0:17:30.676 --> 0:17:35.476 do together was we went to Manhattan's Center for an 0:17:35.476 --> 0:17:38.636 event for Johnny Cash and it was a tribute to 0:17:38.676 --> 0:17:41.276 Johnny Cash. But he sang at the tribute and it 0:17:41.316 --> 0:17:43.516 was a beautiful I remember we were sitting up in 0:17:43.516 --> 0:17:46.236 the left balcony and it was just a beautiful night, 0:17:46.276 --> 0:17:48.316 and I was just so glad that we got to 0:17:48.316 --> 0:17:50.676 do that together. I think, I think that's because of 0:17:50.756 --> 0:17:52.636 you that I've managed to make it backstage before the 0:17:52.636 --> 0:17:54.916 show and I met Johnny for the first time. I 0:17:54.916 --> 0:17:58.556 had met June several times before because of charity events 0:17:58.556 --> 0:18:01.236 that we were both attending, but I had never met Johnny, 0:18:01.236 --> 0:18:02.716 and as it turns out, of course, that was one 0:18:02.996 --> 0:18:04.876 that was in the last year of his life. So 0:18:05.036 --> 0:18:07.356 thank you for allowing me to meet Johnny Cash, one 0:18:07.356 --> 0:18:10.276 of my great heroes. We have to take a quick break, 0:18:10.316 --> 0:18:12.676 but we'll be right back with more from Michael Stipe. 0:18:16.676 --> 0:18:20.316 We're back with more from Rick Rubin's conversation with Michael Stipe. 0:18:20.756 --> 0:18:23.436 When you guys first toured, what was your first tour vehicle? 0:18:24.396 --> 0:18:27.716 A Dodge Van van Green? How many years were you 0:18:27.716 --> 0:18:30.236 guys in a Dodge Van. We didn't have a bus 0:18:30.316 --> 0:18:32.436 until nineteen eighty four, so we were four years in 0:18:32.476 --> 0:18:34.636 the in a van. It's just I think it's interesting 0:18:34.676 --> 0:18:38.436 for people to understand at the time that you guys 0:18:38.516 --> 0:18:41.956 became who you became, what work went into it, because 0:18:41.996 --> 0:18:44.356 I don't know that that really exists in the world anymore. 0:18:44.356 --> 0:18:46.436 It's a it's a little bit of a loss people 0:18:47.476 --> 0:18:49.676 going out on the road and building up a following 0:18:49.756 --> 0:18:52.436 and someday getting to play at the Rose Bowl. Let's 0:18:52.436 --> 0:18:54.556 say where where. I remember when I heard that you 0:18:54.596 --> 0:18:56.956 were playing at the Rose Bowl and you were already 0:18:57.076 --> 0:18:59.276 r Am and I was surprised you were playing at 0:18:59.276 --> 0:19:02.276 the Rose Bowl, because like, that's the Rose Bowl. It's unbelievable. 0:19:02.756 --> 0:19:05.996 Patti Smith did an interview with The Guardian. She was 0:19:06.156 --> 0:19:07.876 quoting someone I don't know who said up but in 0:19:08.596 --> 0:19:15.316 referencing work as an artist, it's a ten percent inspiration 0:19:15.436 --> 0:19:18.516 and ninety percent perspiration. And in the nineteen eighties we 0:19:18.636 --> 0:19:22.436 certainly put in our fair share of perspiration. And in 0:19:22.476 --> 0:19:27.076 the process of building up that that audience and a 0:19:27.156 --> 0:19:30.556 reputation as a band, we actually got our chops. You know, 0:19:30.596 --> 0:19:32.716 we grew up in public. I mean, we had no 0:19:32.756 --> 0:19:34.476 idea what we were doing. I didn't know that a 0:19:34.516 --> 0:19:37.396 bass guitar made the loan notes until our second album. 0:19:37.676 --> 0:19:39.876 I didn't know that. I knew that it was the 0:19:39.916 --> 0:19:41.916 one with four strings. That's all I knew. I mean, 0:19:41.956 --> 0:19:45.716 I was that ignorant of music. And and yet we 0:19:45.756 --> 0:19:49.476 managed to create this these songs that were really quite stunning, 0:19:49.516 --> 0:19:51.396 and we were lucky to work with people like Mitchister 0:19:52.036 --> 0:19:54.796 and Don Dixon or in the early days to help 0:19:54.876 --> 0:19:57.476 us kind of form what was a sound. You know, 0:19:57.516 --> 0:19:59.836 at the time in the early eighties, everybody wanted the 0:19:59.876 --> 0:20:01.756 vocal really loud and the drums really loud because it 0:20:01.756 --> 0:20:04.636 was post disco, and even if you were no matter 0:20:04.636 --> 0:20:06.316 who you were, if you turn the drums up, you're 0:20:06.316 --> 0:20:08.196 going to have a hit, or you're more likely to 0:20:08.196 --> 0:20:10.396 have a hit. And we were like, turned the drums down, 0:20:10.436 --> 0:20:11.756 and turn the vocal down, and turn it. We were 0:20:12.036 --> 0:20:13.956 the people that were saying turn everything down. We don't, 0:20:13.956 --> 0:20:17.116 we want everything quieter. Thank God for remastering because we're 0:20:17.116 --> 0:20:20.676 able to go back onto those recordings now and bring 0:20:20.716 --> 0:20:23.036 it up to speed to what these things sound like. 0:20:23.116 --> 0:20:26.636 With digital technology, with the advent of of all of 0:20:26.676 --> 0:20:28.636 our devices, and the way that we hear things now 0:20:28.716 --> 0:20:31.076 was very, very different from nineteen eighty two. Was the 0:20:31.196 --> 0:20:36.316