1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:23,516 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey y'all, Today we have a conversation between old 2 00:00:23,556 --> 00:00:27,076 Speaker 1: friends Rick Rubin and Michael Stipe. Along with this former 3 00:00:27,076 --> 00:00:30,716 Speaker 1: Georgia based band RM, Stipe helped to popularize what was 4 00:00:30,796 --> 00:00:34,876 Speaker 1: once called alternative music. With his open, arted lyrics. Stipe 5 00:00:34,876 --> 00:00:38,276 Speaker 1: gave voice to the sensitive and misunderstood among us with 6 00:00:38,356 --> 00:00:42,036 Speaker 1: hits like the One I Love, Everybody Hurts, and Losing 7 00:00:42,076 --> 00:00:45,836 Speaker 1: My Religion. On today's episode, Michael plays Rick a new 8 00:00:45,876 --> 00:00:49,556 Speaker 1: song of his called Future If Future, produced by Andy LeMaster. 9 00:00:50,436 --> 00:00:53,036 Speaker 1: The song, as he explains, was released in partnership with 10 00:00:53,076 --> 00:00:55,796 Speaker 1: Earth Percent, which gives artists a simple way to support 11 00:00:55,836 --> 00:01:00,476 Speaker 1: groups fighting climate change, something Stipe cares deeply about. Michael 12 00:01:00,476 --> 00:01:03,436 Speaker 1: Stipe also talks about the upcoming solo album he's recording 13 00:01:03,636 --> 00:01:07,276 Speaker 1: and how he always intended to be super famous and 14 00:01:07,356 --> 00:01:12,516 Speaker 1: then what it was like when it actually happened. This 15 00:01:12,756 --> 00:01:15,636 Speaker 1: is broken record, line of notes, but a digital age. 16 00:01:15,756 --> 00:01:20,956 Speaker 1: I'm justin mission. Here's Rick Rubin and Michael Stipe. Hello. Rick, 17 00:01:21,276 --> 00:01:23,156 Speaker 1: it has been a very long time since I've seen you, 18 00:01:23,196 --> 00:01:25,396 Speaker 1: and you look great. You too. How long have you 19 00:01:25,436 --> 00:01:28,036 Speaker 1: lived in New York? It depends on which government agency 20 00:01:28,116 --> 00:01:30,956 Speaker 1: you talked to, but I've been here since nineteen eighty seven, 21 00:01:31,156 --> 00:01:34,276 Speaker 1: I see, do you ever go back to Georgia. I 22 00:01:34,316 --> 00:01:37,236 Speaker 1: spent most of lockdown in Georgia with my mother, my sisters, 23 00:01:37,276 --> 00:01:40,596 Speaker 1: and a few very close my family. I had some 24 00:01:40,676 --> 00:01:43,236 Speaker 1: vulnerable people in my family, so I spent most of 25 00:01:43,236 --> 00:01:46,676 Speaker 1: lockdown there, and then starting last summer summer of twenty one, 26 00:01:47,156 --> 00:01:50,556 Speaker 1: was able to travel to our home in Berlin because 27 00:01:50,596 --> 00:01:52,876 Speaker 1: I now lived between New York and Berlin, and then 28 00:01:52,916 --> 00:01:54,836 Speaker 1: and then came back when things got bad again with 29 00:01:55,076 --> 00:01:57,956 Speaker 1: a delta. When you're in Georgia, is that at home, 30 00:01:58,196 --> 00:02:01,276 Speaker 1: in the house that you grew up in? No, that's 31 00:02:01,316 --> 00:02:03,956 Speaker 1: a misnomber that I grew up in Georgia. My father 32 00:02:04,036 --> 00:02:06,476 Speaker 1: was in the army, so I traveled my whole life 33 00:02:06,476 --> 00:02:08,356 Speaker 1: with him. He was in Vietnam twice, he was in 34 00:02:08,436 --> 00:02:11,596 Speaker 1: Korea once during my lifetime, and we would pick up 35 00:02:11,596 --> 00:02:13,996 Speaker 1: and move every couple of years. So I was born 36 00:02:13,996 --> 00:02:17,436 Speaker 1: in Georgia. I returned to Georgia when I was eighteen 37 00:02:17,796 --> 00:02:19,916 Speaker 1: because my father retired. He and my mom moved to 38 00:02:19,956 --> 00:02:22,756 Speaker 1: Athens because there's a college there that my uncle went to. 39 00:02:22,836 --> 00:02:26,076 Speaker 1: He was this great he is this incredible activist and 40 00:02:26,316 --> 00:02:29,676 Speaker 1: spent the sixties and seventies in Athens as an activist 41 00:02:29,716 --> 00:02:32,036 Speaker 1: at the University of Georgia. My mom and dad liked 42 00:02:32,036 --> 00:02:34,356 Speaker 1: the sound of it, and so they moved there in 43 00:02:34,436 --> 00:02:37,036 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight when I was eighteen, and I followed them. 44 00:02:37,076 --> 00:02:40,716 Speaker 1: I was living with a punk rock band in Granite City, Illinois, 45 00:02:40,916 --> 00:02:43,276 Speaker 1: and I ran out of money and I moved with 46 00:02:43,276 --> 00:02:45,396 Speaker 1: my tail between my legs. I moved to Athens, Georgia, 47 00:02:45,676 --> 00:02:47,996 Speaker 1: thinking that it was a hippie cowtown and that I 48 00:02:48,236 --> 00:02:50,636 Speaker 1: didn't fit in because I was just, you know, urban 49 00:02:50,676 --> 00:02:52,836 Speaker 1: punk rocker. And it turns out that one of the 50 00:02:52,836 --> 00:02:55,476 Speaker 1: most incredible punk rock scenes in America was happening right 51 00:02:55,636 --> 00:02:57,516 Speaker 1: under my nose in Athens, Georgia, and I became a 52 00:02:57,556 --> 00:03:00,156 Speaker 1: part of it. Unbelievable. What are the odds of that 53 00:03:00,356 --> 00:03:03,076 Speaker 1: being the case. It's just a remarkable You would never 54 00:03:03,116 --> 00:03:04,836 Speaker 1: guess it. Also that it would be, you know, the 55 00:03:04,836 --> 00:03:06,316 Speaker 1: band that kicked it off, of course, of the B 56 00:03:06,436 --> 00:03:08,796 Speaker 1: fifty twos. And that's a band, in my opinion, that 57 00:03:08,836 --> 00:03:13,116 Speaker 1: had yet gotten their due recognition for the degree to 58 00:03:13,156 --> 00:03:16,876 Speaker 1: which they altered the trajectory of contemporary music. Who with 59 00:03:17,156 --> 00:03:19,996 Speaker 1: other bands in the Athens scene at that time, like 60 00:03:20,556 --> 00:03:23,916 Speaker 1: post B fifty two's pre Rim, what was that window 61 00:03:24,476 --> 00:03:29,316 Speaker 1: Brim would include the Method Actors and Pylon and that's 62 00:03:29,356 --> 00:03:31,876 Speaker 1: about it. With Rim came a band called the Side Effects, 63 00:03:31,916 --> 00:03:33,676 Speaker 1: and then a couple of other bands. There was a 64 00:03:33,716 --> 00:03:36,236 Speaker 1: whole scene going on in Atlanta, but there's always been 65 00:03:36,236 --> 00:03:40,116 Speaker 1: this weird thing like San Bernardino, La County kind of 66 00:03:40,156 --> 00:03:43,036 Speaker 1: thing between Atlanta and Athens. There was a band called Vietnam. 67 00:03:43,116 --> 00:03:46,636 Speaker 1: There there was a Ruphole's early band Ruphol and Weipole, 68 00:03:46,916 --> 00:03:49,996 Speaker 1: a band called the Now Explosion, and that was They 69 00:03:49,996 --> 00:03:51,756 Speaker 1: were all really fun people and we would hang out 70 00:03:51,756 --> 00:03:53,636 Speaker 1: with them from time to time, but it was really 71 00:03:53,676 --> 00:03:55,876 Speaker 1: Athens had its own thing going on. A lot of 72 00:03:55,876 --> 00:03:58,396 Speaker 1: that had to do with Jeremy Arrows, my mentor the 73 00:03:58,396 --> 00:04:01,356 Speaker 1: first really the first love of my life in a way, 74 00:04:01,436 --> 00:04:04,236 Speaker 1: and he had moved from Athens where he grew up, 75 00:04:04,556 --> 00:04:07,836 Speaker 1: to New York became involved in Andy Warhol's factory as 76 00:04:07,876 --> 00:04:11,436 Speaker 1: a drag queen named silver Then, who Andy loved, but 77 00:04:11,476 --> 00:04:14,476 Speaker 1: Paul Morrissey, who made all the movies, didn't like very much. Anyway. 78 00:04:14,516 --> 00:04:17,716 Speaker 1: Andy really hung onto Silva until Jeremy decided to move 79 00:04:17,756 --> 00:04:21,556 Speaker 1: back to Athens, and then he was really profoundly involved 80 00:04:21,556 --> 00:04:24,876 Speaker 1: in the beginnings of the B fifty twos and helped 81 00:04:24,956 --> 00:04:28,396 Speaker 1: kind of set the stage for what Athens would become 82 00:04:28,476 --> 00:04:31,316 Speaker 1: as this like hotbed of new music. What was your 83 00:04:31,356 --> 00:04:35,956 Speaker 1: first memory of the punk rock world in the United States? 84 00:04:35,956 --> 00:04:38,996 Speaker 1: So we're not including sex pistols, We're not including like 85 00:04:39,036 --> 00:04:42,196 Speaker 1: your first US experience of punk rock? What was it? Well, 86 00:04:42,196 --> 00:04:45,996 Speaker 1: it predates the sex pistols. I was sent attention in 87 00:04:46,076 --> 00:04:51,196 Speaker 1: high school in nineteen seventy five, and under my desk 88 00:04:51,356 --> 00:04:53,956 Speaker 1: where I sat, someone had left a torn up copy 89 00:04:53,956 --> 00:04:57,356 Speaker 1: of Cream magazine and there was an article written by 90 00:04:57,396 --> 00:05:02,196 Speaker 1: Lisa Robinson about CBGB, and she was comparing the CBGB 91 00:05:02,316 --> 00:05:05,636 Speaker 1: scene to as a black and white, scratchy TV to 92 00:05:05,796 --> 00:05:10,996 Speaker 1: the technicolor, bloviating, bloated rich were better than everyone else 93 00:05:11,116 --> 00:05:14,796 Speaker 1: kind of rock scene that was happening in modern America 94 00:05:14,836 --> 00:05:17,156 Speaker 1: and saying, this is so much more real and so 95 00:05:17,236 --> 00:05:19,596 Speaker 1: much more raw, and so much cooler, and these are 96 00:05:19,596 --> 00:05:21,316 Speaker 1: the people involved in it. And there was a photograph 97 00:05:21,316 --> 00:05:23,756 Speaker 1: of Patti Smith and she looked for all the world like, 98 00:05:23,996 --> 00:05:27,276 Speaker 1: you know, like a vampire black and white picture. She's 99 00:05:27,556 --> 00:05:30,036 Speaker 1: got her eyes wide open and I saw the picture 100 00:05:30,076 --> 00:05:31,796 Speaker 1: and I was like, these are my people. And I 101 00:05:31,836 --> 00:05:33,396 Speaker 1: read the article and I was like, this is it? 102 00:05:33,516 --> 00:05:38,036 Speaker 1: So I wound up accidentally subscribing to the Village Voice. 103 00:05:38,476 --> 00:05:41,996 Speaker 1: My sister had one of those Columbia House subscriptions where 104 00:05:42,116 --> 00:05:43,956 Speaker 1: you paid a dime and you could get ten magazines 105 00:05:43,956 --> 00:05:46,316 Speaker 1: for free, and the Village Voice just sounded like fun. 106 00:05:46,396 --> 00:05:48,716 Speaker 1: So she asked me to pick a few magazines and 107 00:05:48,756 --> 00:05:51,476 Speaker 1: I picked that one, and suddenly I was immersed into 108 00:05:51,916 --> 00:05:55,036 Speaker 1: the whole CBGB scene and I started following it. And 109 00:05:55,076 --> 00:05:58,316 Speaker 1: I bought Patti's first album the day that it came out, 110 00:05:58,396 --> 00:06:00,676 Speaker 1: when I was fifteen years old, and I decided then 111 00:06:00,676 --> 00:06:03,076 Speaker 1: and there that I was going to become a singer 112 00:06:03,276 --> 00:06:06,436 Speaker 1: in a band and that was going to be my life. 113 00:06:06,716 --> 00:06:10,996 Speaker 1: And I naively moved forward with that, and I outrageously 114 00:06:11,236 --> 00:06:14,436 Speaker 1: and very luckily I was succeeded at it. It's unbelievable. 115 00:06:14,476 --> 00:06:16,876 Speaker 1: It's a beautiful story. And was what was your experience 116 00:06:16,916 --> 00:06:19,596 Speaker 1: of music prior to the punk rock experience? Did you 117 00:06:19,756 --> 00:06:23,276 Speaker 1: love music from young childhood or no. I loved music, 118 00:06:23,316 --> 00:06:25,836 Speaker 1: but I was only exposed really to pop radio, and 119 00:06:26,156 --> 00:06:28,276 Speaker 1: the five years that are kind of probably most significant 120 00:06:28,316 --> 00:06:30,596 Speaker 1: to me or the years that we spent in Texas. 121 00:06:30,956 --> 00:06:34,556 Speaker 1: We had moved from Frankfort. Outside of Frankfort, Germany, where 122 00:06:34,796 --> 00:06:36,916 Speaker 1: there was pop radio, but it was all German, so 123 00:06:36,956 --> 00:06:40,236 Speaker 1: it was like the Beatles singing Michel Mabel in German. 124 00:06:40,716 --> 00:06:43,556 Speaker 1: I distinctly remember that as a child standing in a 125 00:06:43,556 --> 00:06:45,716 Speaker 1: cabbage garden, if you can believe it, it was very 126 00:06:45,756 --> 00:06:49,436 Speaker 1: German in nineteen sixty seven and moving as a seven 127 00:06:49,556 --> 00:06:52,276 Speaker 1: or eight year old to Texas and then hearing pop 128 00:06:52,356 --> 00:06:56,436 Speaker 1: radio which included Tammy Wynette and a lot of country music, 129 00:06:56,436 --> 00:06:59,476 Speaker 1: but then also the Archies and the Banana Splits and whatever. 130 00:06:59,636 --> 00:07:02,516 Speaker 1: You know. The Flintstones were primetime TV at that point 131 00:07:02,636 --> 00:07:06,636 Speaker 1: during the Vietnam War. Yeah, my exposure to pop radio 132 00:07:07,236 --> 00:07:10,476 Speaker 1: during those those years between sixty seven and seventy three, 133 00:07:10,796 --> 00:07:15,196 Speaker 1: that was really primo amazing radio in terms of music 134 00:07:15,196 --> 00:07:19,396 Speaker 1: that I really clocked as as a young team. I 135 00:07:19,436 --> 00:07:23,156 Speaker 1: always cite rock On by David Essex, which I then 136 00:07:23,476 --> 00:07:27,716 Speaker 1: kind of extrapolated into the song drive by RIM's. It's 137 00:07:27,716 --> 00:07:30,396 Speaker 1: a very very That whole album in fact, is really 138 00:07:30,436 --> 00:07:33,596 Speaker 1: referencing the nineteen seventies and the song by song you 139 00:07:33,676 --> 00:07:36,636 Speaker 1: can go to everybody Hurts is Nazareth the band Nazareth 140 00:07:36,636 --> 00:07:38,916 Speaker 1: Guy that covers Love Hurts, which was an earlier song 141 00:07:39,036 --> 00:07:42,356 Speaker 1: from I think the nineteen fifties or sixties. Drive was 142 00:07:42,756 --> 00:07:46,116 Speaker 1: my homage to David Essex and rock On. The other 143 00:07:46,116 --> 00:07:48,836 Speaker 1: song that I always name is my now very very 144 00:07:48,916 --> 00:07:50,556 Speaker 1: very dear friend and a man who I love very much. 145 00:07:50,596 --> 00:07:53,156 Speaker 1: But Elton John put up bidding in the Jets and 146 00:07:53,236 --> 00:07:56,596 Speaker 1: I had never heard anything like that before. It was 147 00:07:57,156 --> 00:07:59,876 Speaker 1: absolutely mind blowing to me that the production it was 148 00:07:59,956 --> 00:08:01,836 Speaker 1: really and I'm talking to you about this, but it 149 00:08:01,876 --> 00:08:04,076 Speaker 1: was really the production. The song is a great song, 150 00:08:04,276 --> 00:08:06,956 Speaker 1: and he's of course an amazing artist, but the production 151 00:08:06,996 --> 00:08:09,996 Speaker 1: of the song was so whacked out. In the production 152 00:08:10,036 --> 00:08:12,996 Speaker 1: of rock On by David Essex was so whacked out. 153 00:08:13,196 --> 00:08:15,156 Speaker 1: But I think that was coming out of well, you know, 154 00:08:15,196 --> 00:08:18,116 Speaker 1: what was happening with the glam rock in England, early 155 00:08:18,196 --> 00:08:22,276 Speaker 1: kind of Mark Bowland, very early David Bowie, Slade, the 156 00:08:22,276 --> 00:08:24,036 Speaker 1: Basicity Rollers might have come a little bit later, and 157 00:08:24,076 --> 00:08:25,916 Speaker 1: they were very pop of course, but I think a 158 00:08:25,956 --> 00:08:28,396 Speaker 1: lot of that production stuff was coming from there. So 159 00:08:28,476 --> 00:08:30,516 Speaker 1: after you saw the picture of Patty, did you go 160 00:08:30,636 --> 00:08:32,516 Speaker 1: to find her? Is that? Is that? The next step. 161 00:08:32,516 --> 00:08:34,916 Speaker 1: You went to New York. That was what drew you. 162 00:08:35,636 --> 00:08:38,036 Speaker 1: I did not go to New York for another three years. 163 00:08:38,356 --> 00:08:41,036 Speaker 1: I didn't actually meet Patty until twenty years later. Wow, 164 00:08:41,276 --> 00:08:44,476 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five that we actually met each Incredible, incredible. 165 00:08:44,596 --> 00:08:46,636 Speaker 1: We can continue from nineteen seventy nine when I first 166 00:08:46,756 --> 00:08:48,676 Speaker 1: came to New York. But um, you and I go 167 00:08:48,716 --> 00:08:51,156 Speaker 1: back a long long way, and we all have our 168 00:08:51,276 --> 00:08:53,556 Speaker 1: past that are maybe a little bit embarrassing. But I 169 00:08:53,596 --> 00:08:55,116 Speaker 1: know that you used to spend a good bit of 170 00:08:55,156 --> 00:08:59,236 Speaker 1: time in New York at Exterminator Chile. Yes, remember that 171 00:08:59,236 --> 00:09:02,116 Speaker 1: place I loved. My two best friends worked there, Tom 172 00:09:02,156 --> 00:09:05,956 Speaker 1: Gilroy and Jim McKay, both artists, and Michael Imperioli from 173 00:09:05,996 --> 00:09:09,076 Speaker 1: who went on to do The Sopranos, worked there as well. 174 00:09:09,516 --> 00:09:13,596 Speaker 1: But you used to go for lunch and occasionally for dinner. Yes, 175 00:09:13,676 --> 00:09:16,636 Speaker 1: And the person who managed Exterminated Chili, whose name I 176 00:09:16,636 --> 00:09:18,276 Speaker 1: can't think of now because I haven't thought about it 177 00:09:18,316 --> 00:09:21,636 Speaker 1: since then, managed band and we ended up signing that 178 00:09:21,676 --> 00:09:25,156 Speaker 1: band called Masters of Reality that were a super cool 179 00:09:25,396 --> 00:09:30,556 Speaker 1: kind of psychedelic psychedelic rock band. I remember Masters of Reality. 180 00:09:30,596 --> 00:09:32,916 Speaker 1: That's pretty cool. And also, but why are eight there. Wow, 181 00:09:33,516 --> 00:09:36,116 Speaker 1: the Chili Peppers made a video there, I think, and 182 00:09:36,156 --> 00:09:39,076 Speaker 1: that might have been before your time. Yeah, thinking about 183 00:09:39,556 --> 00:09:43,516 Speaker 1: the early days of punk rock and starting your post 184 00:09:43,556 --> 00:09:46,036 Speaker 1: punk band, I guess would you would you qualify rim 185 00:09:46,076 --> 00:09:48,756 Speaker 1: as a post punk I think so. Yeah, Yeah, it 186 00:09:48,796 --> 00:09:52,476 Speaker 1: was alternative music. Could you possibly imagine that it would 187 00:09:52,516 --> 00:09:57,356 Speaker 1: become as popular and as mainstream as it ended up being? 188 00:09:58,116 --> 00:10:00,316 Speaker 1: I think, to be completely honest, I think that was 189 00:10:00,356 --> 00:10:02,116 Speaker 1: my intention all along. I wanted to be as big 190 00:10:02,156 --> 00:10:03,716 Speaker 1: as I could possibly be. I just wanted to be 191 00:10:03,796 --> 00:10:07,956 Speaker 1: really super fucking famous and not by any means necessary, 192 00:10:08,556 --> 00:10:10,636 Speaker 1: which is what you find in today's culture. You know, 193 00:10:10,676 --> 00:10:12,956 Speaker 1: there are people that are famous for the sake of 194 00:10:12,956 --> 00:10:15,676 Speaker 1: being famous, and you know, then they become a billionaire 195 00:10:15,676 --> 00:10:18,596 Speaker 1: with a makeup line or whatever. That's that's a little insulting, 196 00:10:18,716 --> 00:10:21,716 Speaker 1: frankly for those of us who actually work at more 197 00:10:21,716 --> 00:10:25,036 Speaker 1: than just business. But yeah, I wanted. I knew that 198 00:10:25,076 --> 00:10:26,996 Speaker 1: I had something to offer. I didn't know what it 199 00:10:27,036 --> 00:10:29,156 Speaker 1: was when I was nineteen or when I was fifteen, 200 00:10:29,676 --> 00:10:31,636 Speaker 1: but you know, over the course of a few records, 201 00:10:31,676 --> 00:10:33,916 Speaker 1: I figured out that I had a voice and that 202 00:10:34,396 --> 00:10:36,436 Speaker 1: and then much later I found out that voice was 203 00:10:36,476 --> 00:10:39,436 Speaker 1: quite unique and uh, and I started really enjoying the 204 00:10:39,436 --> 00:10:42,196 Speaker 1: process of writing. And you know, Peter, Mike and I 205 00:10:42,396 --> 00:10:45,436 Speaker 1: and Bill when he was in the band, we're the 206 00:10:45,476 --> 00:10:48,356 Speaker 1: best of friends, and we supported each other, We loved 207 00:10:48,356 --> 00:10:51,676 Speaker 1: each other. We kept each other alive many times, and 208 00:10:51,716 --> 00:10:54,796 Speaker 1: we had a great grand adventure together, which you know, 209 00:10:54,836 --> 00:10:58,396 Speaker 1: for me lasted thirty two years. The postpartum after thirty 210 00:10:58,436 --> 00:11:01,396 Speaker 1: two years is let me tell you, that's something that's 211 00:11:01,636 --> 00:11:03,956 Speaker 1: that's a high that you don't come down from easily. 212 00:11:04,396 --> 00:11:06,236 Speaker 1: And so it took me several years to kind of 213 00:11:06,276 --> 00:11:08,356 Speaker 1: I had really had to step away from music because 214 00:11:08,676 --> 00:11:10,836 Speaker 1: I'm all and you know, I don't do anything halfway. 215 00:11:11,276 --> 00:11:14,716 Speaker 1: I accept the defeats and the embarrassments along with the 216 00:11:14,756 --> 00:11:17,676 Speaker 1: triumphs and the hit singles, but if I don't do 217 00:11:17,716 --> 00:11:20,796 Speaker 1: anything halfway. And so when when ari Am finally disbanded, 218 00:11:21,516 --> 00:11:23,596 Speaker 1: I needed to take a break and I needed to 219 00:11:23,956 --> 00:11:27,196 Speaker 1: not think about or look at music for a long time. 220 00:11:27,236 --> 00:11:28,956 Speaker 1: And it turned out it was like five years before 221 00:11:29,476 --> 00:11:32,116 Speaker 1: I actually kind of accidentally fell back into it through 222 00:11:32,516 --> 00:11:37,076 Speaker 1: Fisher Spooner and then working with Andy on that project, 223 00:11:37,316 --> 00:11:39,996 Speaker 1: I realized that he and I had this really good 224 00:11:40,076 --> 00:11:43,516 Speaker 1: rapport as as co writers, and we started working together 225 00:11:43,756 --> 00:11:46,116 Speaker 1: and now we're involving all these other people. Galen Lea 226 00:11:46,236 --> 00:11:49,316 Speaker 1: do you know her. She's this astonishing singer songwriter from 227 00:11:49,356 --> 00:11:52,636 Speaker 1: the Minneapolis Saint Paul area. She has this astonishing, incredible, 228 00:11:52,676 --> 00:11:57,436 Speaker 1: incredible presence and a very very unique voice, and our 229 00:11:57,516 --> 00:12:02,516 Speaker 1: voices meld together beautifully. So so Galen is contributing on 230 00:12:02,556 --> 00:12:06,276 Speaker 1: the record, some other people have stepped in to do work, 231 00:12:06,276 --> 00:12:08,596 Speaker 1: and I'm just really very excited about it. It's it's 232 00:12:08,836 --> 00:12:11,196 Speaker 1: it's a very different you know, I have no representation now, 233 00:12:11,236 --> 00:12:13,636 Speaker 1: I have no record company. I was. I was under 234 00:12:13,636 --> 00:12:16,716 Speaker 1: contract since I was twenty two years old, and now 235 00:12:16,836 --> 00:12:20,156 Speaker 1: I'm sixty two years old, and uh, and I'm a 236 00:12:20,156 --> 00:12:22,596 Speaker 1: free agent. I can do whatever I want, and I don't. 237 00:12:22,676 --> 00:12:26,436 Speaker 1: There's nothing forcing me or making me make the choices 238 00:12:26,436 --> 00:12:28,076 Speaker 1: that I make other than just wanting to create things 239 00:12:28,116 --> 00:12:30,876 Speaker 1: that are beautiful and that inspired people in somewhere. And 240 00:12:30,956 --> 00:12:33,436 Speaker 1: the reason I asked about what you thought was possible 241 00:12:33,716 --> 00:12:36,476 Speaker 1: was I remember being in my parents house and seeing 242 00:12:37,236 --> 00:12:42,236 Speaker 1: looking at the New York Times Sunday calendar section, and 243 00:12:42,276 --> 00:12:45,476 Speaker 1: there was a full page ad for the police at 244 00:12:45,516 --> 00:12:48,316 Speaker 1: Madison Square Garden and I remember looking at it, I think, 245 00:12:48,396 --> 00:12:51,156 Speaker 1: I think this is a mistake. The Police can't play 246 00:12:51,156 --> 00:12:53,676 Speaker 1: at Madison Square Garden. They play at the club's you 247 00:12:53,676 --> 00:12:56,036 Speaker 1: know they play. I went to the Roxy and to 248 00:12:56,116 --> 00:13:00,116 Speaker 1: the Ritz and to you know, to the Palladium. They 249 00:13:00,116 --> 00:13:01,956 Speaker 1: could maybe play at the Palladium. They can't play at 250 00:13:01,956 --> 00:13:05,436 Speaker 1: Madison Square Garden. That's not where That's not where the 251 00:13:05,476 --> 00:13:09,476 Speaker 1: Police play. That's not where the groups that I like play. 252 00:13:09,516 --> 00:13:12,196 Speaker 1: That must have been after Roxane. Yeah, you know my band, 253 00:13:12,436 --> 00:13:15,636 Speaker 1: my former band Oriam, opened for the Police, actually not 254 00:13:15,716 --> 00:13:19,436 Speaker 1: at Madison Scrub Garden but at Shay State when they 255 00:13:19,436 --> 00:13:21,676 Speaker 1: played there. And we had the same booking agent who 256 00:13:21,996 --> 00:13:26,036 Speaker 1: Mike and Bill, the drummer and bass player for former 257 00:13:26,116 --> 00:13:29,836 Speaker 1: drummer and bass player knew Ian Copeland very well. They 258 00:13:29,836 --> 00:13:32,396 Speaker 1: worked for him in Bacon when when he first started 259 00:13:32,716 --> 00:13:34,956 Speaker 1: and he put us on this bill. It was us 260 00:13:34,956 --> 00:13:37,876 Speaker 1: and Joan Jett in the Black Hearts and the Police, 261 00:13:38,276 --> 00:13:41,236 Speaker 1: and we played a twenty minute set in the pouring rain. 262 00:13:41,596 --> 00:13:47,116 Speaker 1: I was twenty three, I think, and Andy Warhol was 263 00:13:47,156 --> 00:13:50,076 Speaker 1: there and Joan Jett came and said hello, and I 264 00:13:50,116 --> 00:13:52,916 Speaker 1: was really because I loved the Runaways. I loved Joan Jett, 265 00:13:53,236 --> 00:13:55,396 Speaker 1: who else? Matt Dillon came, Matt telling he was a 266 00:13:55,436 --> 00:13:57,876 Speaker 1: big fan, and he came by and said hello. So 267 00:13:57,996 --> 00:14:00,756 Speaker 1: that was a That was an August afternoon for us. 268 00:14:01,036 --> 00:14:03,316 Speaker 1: What was it like walking out onto that stage? What 269 00:14:03,436 --> 00:14:06,196 Speaker 1: was the feeling? I imagine what size places were you 270 00:14:06,236 --> 00:14:08,836 Speaker 1: playing at that time? At twenty three, we were playing 271 00:14:08,836 --> 00:14:11,996 Speaker 1: clubs seven people rick, nobody knew who arium was. Nobody cared, 272 00:14:12,236 --> 00:14:14,116 Speaker 1: and that's fine, you know, I mean, it was just 273 00:14:14,676 --> 00:14:16,796 Speaker 1: it was like throwing raw meat to dogs. You know, 274 00:14:16,956 --> 00:14:19,076 Speaker 1: they had no idea who we were. We were on 275 00:14:19,116 --> 00:14:21,356 Speaker 1: and off before they could get angry and like throw 276 00:14:21,396 --> 00:14:23,796 Speaker 1: bottles at us. And you know, we did a really 277 00:14:23,836 --> 00:14:27,676 Speaker 1: tight set. Everything was very very like Ramone speed at 278 00:14:27,716 --> 00:14:30,876 Speaker 1: that point with Orium, so it actually I kind of 279 00:14:30,916 --> 00:14:34,956 Speaker 1: developed a singing style because the band refused to play 280 00:14:35,436 --> 00:14:38,236 Speaker 1: slower than they did. Mike was really loved the Ramones 281 00:14:38,276 --> 00:14:41,636 Speaker 1: and really loved a really fast bass part, so everything 282 00:14:41,716 --> 00:14:44,796 Speaker 1: was really like rockabilly Ramons kind of fast. And I 283 00:14:44,836 --> 00:14:46,636 Speaker 1: got tired of singing that fast and I thought it 284 00:14:46,676 --> 00:14:49,516 Speaker 1: was boring, so I started slowing down my part. It's 285 00:14:49,516 --> 00:14:51,236 Speaker 1: the one thing I could do. They wouldn't slow down, 286 00:14:51,316 --> 00:14:53,076 Speaker 1: so I slowed down my part, and that actually became 287 00:14:53,156 --> 00:14:55,676 Speaker 1: a singing style for me. By the time we recorded 288 00:14:55,676 --> 00:14:58,196 Speaker 1: our first album and a song like talk about the Passion, 289 00:14:58,356 --> 00:15:00,836 Speaker 1: they were playing everything really fast and jangly, and I 290 00:15:00,916 --> 00:15:05,236 Speaker 1: was just singing very very slowly and holding my vowels, 291 00:15:05,396 --> 00:15:09,516 Speaker 1: and that became what that became, well, something like a install. 292 00:15:09,676 --> 00:15:11,756 Speaker 1: I guess I'm so happy to see I have to say. 293 00:15:11,836 --> 00:15:14,636 Speaker 1: I feel I miss you and I love you, and 294 00:15:14,676 --> 00:15:16,236 Speaker 1: it's so nice to talk to you, and I feel 295 00:15:16,236 --> 00:15:18,156 Speaker 1: like we I feel there are a million things for 296 00:15:18,196 --> 00:15:21,636 Speaker 1: us to talk about, because everything you said is the 297 00:15:21,636 --> 00:15:23,956 Speaker 1: beginning of another conversation. Like we could talk about the 298 00:15:23,996 --> 00:15:26,996 Speaker 1: Village Voice alone forever. I was a pack rat when 299 00:15:27,036 --> 00:15:30,596 Speaker 1: I was a kid, and I subscribe to the Village Voice. 300 00:15:30,596 --> 00:15:32,676 Speaker 1: And at one point there was an entire room of 301 00:15:32,716 --> 00:15:35,396 Speaker 1: my family house that I grew up in Florida ceiling 302 00:15:35,556 --> 00:15:39,836 Speaker 1: the entire room of just Village Voice newspapers because I 303 00:15:39,876 --> 00:15:42,916 Speaker 1: saved everyone, and I didn't save them in any way 304 00:15:42,916 --> 00:15:45,636 Speaker 1: that I could refer back to them. But when my 305 00:15:45,676 --> 00:15:47,516 Speaker 1: mom would say we have to throw away these newspapers, 306 00:15:47,556 --> 00:15:49,636 Speaker 1: I said, you can't throw them away, because I might 307 00:15:49,676 --> 00:15:52,196 Speaker 1: have to refer back to something in those There was 308 00:15:52,236 --> 00:15:55,116 Speaker 1: no way for me to do that, but I wanted 309 00:15:55,156 --> 00:15:58,156 Speaker 1: to know all of the information in all of these newspapers. 310 00:15:58,396 --> 00:16:00,916 Speaker 1: It was our life's blood. We have a lot in 311 00:16:00,916 --> 00:16:04,076 Speaker 1: common record. I'm pack rat would be a very friendly 312 00:16:04,156 --> 00:16:05,996 Speaker 1: term for what we call me and my father. I'm 313 00:16:05,996 --> 00:16:09,756 Speaker 1: a hoarder, and I happen to have really good taste, 314 00:16:09,796 --> 00:16:12,396 Speaker 1: and I've had a fascinating life thus far. So the 315 00:16:12,476 --> 00:16:15,436 Speaker 1: things that I've parted are for the most part, pretty interesting. 316 00:16:15,516 --> 00:16:19,756 Speaker 1: Stacks and piles, and you know, Warhole had his time capsules, 317 00:16:19,756 --> 00:16:22,316 Speaker 1: which was just cardboard boxes and he would jam everything 318 00:16:22,356 --> 00:16:24,516 Speaker 1: that came to him would go into a cardboard box 319 00:16:24,556 --> 00:16:27,156 Speaker 1: and that became time capsules. It was my friend Todd 320 00:16:27,156 --> 00:16:31,676 Speaker 1: Everley who used to He's a photographer, very talented artist, 321 00:16:32,276 --> 00:16:34,876 Speaker 1: and he worked for Vanity Fair forever. But he was 322 00:16:34,996 --> 00:16:39,156 Speaker 1: called to the Warhole Museum and he was handed the 323 00:16:39,196 --> 00:16:43,276 Speaker 1: task of photographing time capsules that Warhole had left when 324 00:16:43,276 --> 00:16:46,036 Speaker 1: he died that had never been open before, and he 325 00:16:46,076 --> 00:16:49,916 Speaker 1: found some unbelievable things. I still regard Warhole as the 326 00:16:49,916 --> 00:16:54,076 Speaker 1: greatest artists of the twentieth century, the close second being 327 00:16:54,116 --> 00:16:59,076 Speaker 1: Brenkouzi Brenkouzi managed to bring modernism and traditionalism together, not 328 00:16:59,236 --> 00:17:02,556 Speaker 1: capital tea but small tea, traditionalism together in art, and 329 00:17:02,916 --> 00:17:04,236 Speaker 1: do so in a way that was that was not 330 00:17:04,276 --> 00:17:08,476 Speaker 1: only elegant, but but insanely timeless. Yeah, and felt new. 331 00:17:08,676 --> 00:17:12,516 Speaker 1: It's interesting when someone can make something traditional and modern 332 00:17:12,996 --> 00:17:16,236 Speaker 1: and it lives in both worlds. It still feels new. 333 00:17:16,356 --> 00:17:18,316 Speaker 1: That's the thing. You see your brand Cuisy piece and 334 00:17:18,356 --> 00:17:20,996 Speaker 1: you're like, what is this? This is the most elegant, 335 00:17:21,036 --> 00:17:23,436 Speaker 1: the most I'm using that word a lot, but it 336 00:17:23,476 --> 00:17:28,316 Speaker 1: does describe I think it's his work. I remember one 337 00:17:28,316 --> 00:17:30,636 Speaker 1: of my fondest memories of things that we got to 338 00:17:30,676 --> 00:17:35,476 Speaker 1: do together was we went to Manhattan's Center for an 339 00:17:35,476 --> 00:17:38,636 Speaker 1: event for Johnny Cash and it was a tribute to 340 00:17:38,676 --> 00:17:41,276 Speaker 1: Johnny Cash. But he sang at the tribute and it 341 00:17:41,316 --> 00:17:43,516 Speaker 1: was a beautiful I remember we were sitting up in 342 00:17:43,516 --> 00:17:46,236 Speaker 1: the left balcony and it was just a beautiful night, 343 00:17:46,276 --> 00:17:48,316 Speaker 1: and I was just so glad that we got to 344 00:17:48,316 --> 00:17:50,676 Speaker 1: do that together. I think, I think that's because of 345 00:17:50,756 --> 00:17:52,636 Speaker 1: you that I've managed to make it backstage before the 346 00:17:52,636 --> 00:17:54,916 Speaker 1: show and I met Johnny for the first time. I 347 00:17:54,916 --> 00:17:58,556 Speaker 1: had met June several times before because of charity events 348 00:17:58,556 --> 00:18:01,236 Speaker 1: that we were both attending, but I had never met Johnny, 349 00:18:01,236 --> 00:18:02,716 Speaker 1: and as it turns out, of course, that was one 350 00:18:02,996 --> 00:18:04,876 Speaker 1: that was in the last year of his life. So 351 00:18:05,036 --> 00:18:07,356 Speaker 1: thank you for allowing me to meet Johnny Cash, one 352 00:18:07,356 --> 00:18:10,276 Speaker 1: of my great heroes. We have to take a quick break, 353 00:18:10,316 --> 00:18:12,676 Speaker 1: but we'll be right back with more from Michael Stipe. 354 00:18:16,676 --> 00:18:20,316 Speaker 1: We're back with more from Rick Rubin's conversation with Michael Stipe. 355 00:18:20,756 --> 00:18:23,436 Speaker 1: When you guys first toured, what was your first tour vehicle? 356 00:18:24,396 --> 00:18:27,716 Speaker 1: A Dodge Van van Green? How many years were you 357 00:18:27,716 --> 00:18:30,236 Speaker 1: guys in a Dodge Van. We didn't have a bus 358 00:18:30,316 --> 00:18:32,436 Speaker 1: until nineteen eighty four, so we were four years in 359 00:18:32,476 --> 00:18:34,636 Speaker 1: the in a van. It's just I think it's interesting 360 00:18:34,676 --> 00:18:38,436 Speaker 1: for people to understand at the time that you guys 361 00:18:38,516 --> 00:18:41,956 Speaker 1: became who you became, what work went into it, because 362 00:18:41,996 --> 00:18:44,356 Speaker 1: I don't know that that really exists in the world anymore. 363 00:18:44,356 --> 00:18:46,436 Speaker 1: It's a it's a little bit of a loss people 364 00:18:47,476 --> 00:18:49,676 Speaker 1: going out on the road and building up a following 365 00:18:49,756 --> 00:18:52,436 Speaker 1: and someday getting to play at the Rose Bowl. Let's 366 00:18:52,436 --> 00:18:54,556 Speaker 1: say where where. I remember when I heard that you 367 00:18:54,596 --> 00:18:56,956 Speaker 1: were playing at the Rose Bowl and you were already 368 00:18:57,076 --> 00:18:59,276 Speaker 1: r Am and I was surprised you were playing at 369 00:18:59,276 --> 00:19:02,276 Speaker 1: the Rose Bowl, because like, that's the Rose Bowl. It's unbelievable. 370 00:19:02,756 --> 00:19:05,996 Speaker 1: Patti Smith did an interview with The Guardian. She was 371 00:19:06,156 --> 00:19:07,876 Speaker 1: quoting someone I don't know who said up but in 372 00:19:08,596 --> 00:19:15,316 Speaker 1: referencing work as an artist, it's a ten percent inspiration 373 00:19:15,436 --> 00:19:18,516 Speaker 1: and ninety percent perspiration. And in the nineteen eighties we 374 00:19:18,636 --> 00:19:22,436 Speaker 1: certainly put in our fair share of perspiration. And in 375 00:19:22,476 --> 00:19:27,076 Speaker 1: the process of building up that that audience and a 376 00:19:27,156 --> 00:19:30,556 Speaker 1: reputation as a band, we actually got our chops. You know, 377 00:19:30,596 --> 00:19:32,716 Speaker 1: we grew up in public. I mean, we had no 378 00:19:32,756 --> 00:19:34,476 Speaker 1: idea what we were doing. I didn't know that a 379 00:19:34,516 --> 00:19:37,396 Speaker 1: bass guitar made the loan notes until our second album. 380 00:19:37,676 --> 00:19:39,876 Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I knew that it was the 381 00:19:39,916 --> 00:19:41,916 Speaker 1: one with four strings. That's all I knew. I mean, 382 00:19:41,956 --> 00:19:45,716 Speaker 1: I was that ignorant of music. And and yet we 383 00:19:45,756 --> 00:19:49,476 Speaker 1: managed to create this these songs that were really quite stunning, 384 00:19:49,516 --> 00:19:51,396 Speaker 1: and we were lucky to work with people like Mitchister 385 00:19:52,036 --> 00:19:54,796 Speaker 1: and Don Dixon or in the early days to help 386 00:19:54,876 --> 00:19:57,476 Speaker 1: us kind of form what was a sound. You know, 387 00:19:57,516 --> 00:19:59,836 Speaker 1: at the time in the early eighties, everybody wanted the 388 00:19:59,876 --> 00:20:01,756 Speaker 1: vocal really loud and the drums really loud because it 389 00:20:01,756 --> 00:20:04,636 Speaker 1: was post disco, and even if you were no matter 390 00:20:04,636 --> 00:20:06,316 Speaker 1: who you were, if you turn the drums up, you're 391 00:20:06,316 --> 00:20:08,196 Speaker 1: going to have a hit, or you're more likely to 392 00:20:08,196 --> 00:20:10,396 Speaker 1: have a hit. And we were like, turned the drums down, 393 00:20:10,436 --> 00:20:11,756 Speaker 1: and turn the vocal down, and turn it. We were 394 00:20:12,036 --> 00:20:13,956 Speaker 1: the people that were saying turn everything down. We don't, 395 00:20:13,956 --> 00:20:17,116 Speaker 1: we want everything quieter. Thank God for remastering because we're 396 00:20:17,116 --> 00:20:20,676 Speaker 1: able to go back onto those recordings now and bring 397 00:20:20,716 --> 00:20:23,036 Speaker 1: it up to speed to what these things sound like. 398 00:20:23,116 --> 00:20:26,636 Speaker 1: With digital technology, with the advent of of all of 399 00:20:26,676 --> 00:20:28,636 Speaker 1: our devices, and the way that we hear things now 400 00:20:28,716 --> 00:20:31,076 Speaker 1: was very, very different from nineteen eighty two. Was the 401 00:20:31,196 --> 00:20:36,316 Speaker 1: road from the Dodge van up to the state eventually stadiums. 402 00:20:36,956 --> 00:20:40,276 Speaker 1: Was it a consistent road or were there like moments 403 00:20:40,316 --> 00:20:42,916 Speaker 1: on the way where they were breakthroughs. You remember the 404 00:20:42,916 --> 00:20:45,556 Speaker 1: first time something big happened, Well, the first big thing 405 00:20:45,556 --> 00:20:47,156 Speaker 1: was when I walked on stage for the first time ever, 406 00:20:47,196 --> 00:20:49,076 Speaker 1: and I was like, this is a this is where 407 00:20:49,076 --> 00:20:51,756 Speaker 1: I like, I loved it. And half the time again 408 00:20:51,796 --> 00:20:53,676 Speaker 1: I was you know, I tranced when I performed, so 409 00:20:54,196 --> 00:20:56,196 Speaker 1: half the time I was kind of not really there. 410 00:20:56,756 --> 00:20:58,836 Speaker 1: I could be reminded of something and be like, oh, yeah, 411 00:20:58,836 --> 00:21:00,716 Speaker 1: that's when I stumbled over and I hit that note 412 00:21:00,716 --> 00:21:03,116 Speaker 1: that I don't usually hit, or that's when someone threw 413 00:21:03,156 --> 00:21:05,116 Speaker 1: something and it hit me in the shoulder. But I 414 00:21:05,156 --> 00:21:07,276 Speaker 1: would go into really a trance state when I performed, 415 00:21:07,276 --> 00:21:09,836 Speaker 1: and and that's very lucky for me. You know, it 416 00:21:10,156 --> 00:21:13,356 Speaker 1: kept me from becoming terribly self conscious. I was as 417 00:21:13,356 --> 00:21:18,996 Speaker 1: pretentious as anyone, and I embrace that pretension. I love pretensions, 418 00:21:19,116 --> 00:21:20,676 Speaker 1: as you know. If you think of it as a 419 00:21:20,876 --> 00:21:23,356 Speaker 1: way to rise out of yourself and to allow yourself 420 00:21:23,396 --> 00:21:26,476 Speaker 1: to become something bigger than what you are, then wow, 421 00:21:26,596 --> 00:21:29,276 Speaker 1: I'm really pretentious. And look where it placed me. I'm 422 00:21:29,316 --> 00:21:31,836 Speaker 1: okay with that. Yeah, I love to perform. What was 423 00:21:31,876 --> 00:21:33,756 Speaker 1: the question, Rick, That was a good question. We're talking 424 00:21:33,796 --> 00:21:36,316 Speaker 1: about the first moment where like something big happened. So 425 00:21:36,356 --> 00:21:38,236 Speaker 1: the first one you gave me was stepping on stage 426 00:21:38,236 --> 00:21:40,756 Speaker 1: and realizing this is for you. And then in the band, 427 00:21:40,796 --> 00:21:43,076 Speaker 1: when was the first moments like oh this is things 428 00:21:43,116 --> 00:21:45,956 Speaker 1: are things are changing. I can answer that and it 429 00:21:45,996 --> 00:21:49,316 Speaker 1: echoes the rest of our conversation. Yeah, we were voted 430 00:21:49,636 --> 00:21:53,476 Speaker 1: band of the Year Jazz and Pop Pass and Job. Yeah, 431 00:21:53,996 --> 00:21:58,876 Speaker 1: Vollage Voice Murmur, our first album nineteen eighty three Record 432 00:21:58,876 --> 00:22:01,996 Speaker 1: of the Year by the critics choice, and that was 433 00:22:02,036 --> 00:22:05,756 Speaker 1: over Michael Jackson's Thriller. So the enormity of that to us, 434 00:22:06,196 --> 00:22:09,516 Speaker 1: you know, we were living in this rundown fleaback hotel 435 00:22:09,876 --> 00:22:13,276 Speaker 1: in Times Square. I would eat one knish a day. 436 00:22:13,636 --> 00:22:15,316 Speaker 1: I knew where I could go to get it. I 437 00:22:15,396 --> 00:22:17,596 Speaker 1: knew where I could go and bat my eyelashes and 438 00:22:17,636 --> 00:22:19,956 Speaker 1: get someone to buy me a beer and not have 439 00:22:20,036 --> 00:22:21,956 Speaker 1: to you know, not have to get laid in the 440 00:22:21,956 --> 00:22:23,836 Speaker 1: prop but I you know, I would, I would. I 441 00:22:23,956 --> 00:22:26,756 Speaker 1: lived off of a knish. We were living on five 442 00:22:26,796 --> 00:22:28,636 Speaker 1: dollars a day and a bag of M and m's 443 00:22:28,636 --> 00:22:30,756 Speaker 1: that my uncle left when he traveled through New York. 444 00:22:31,076 --> 00:22:35,036 Speaker 1: We had nothing, and our record was the Village Voice 445 00:22:35,476 --> 00:22:38,116 Speaker 1: Record of the Year over Michael Jackson's Thriller. We were 446 00:22:38,116 --> 00:22:40,596 Speaker 1: playing clubs to twelve and fifteen people at a time, 447 00:22:40,676 --> 00:22:42,436 Speaker 1: you know. But but anyway, I mean those were the days. 448 00:22:42,476 --> 00:22:44,796 Speaker 1: You know, it was good fun and we made the 449 00:22:44,796 --> 00:22:47,236 Speaker 1: most of it. And I'm glad I had those experiences. 450 00:22:47,556 --> 00:22:50,356 Speaker 1: And what was the next like breakthrough moments like oh, 451 00:22:50,396 --> 00:22:53,116 Speaker 1: this is bigger than that. What were just looking for 452 00:22:53,156 --> 00:22:56,676 Speaker 1: like the stages of development. Fall On Me was the 453 00:22:56,836 --> 00:23:00,196 Speaker 1: video that MTV had to play. I was disgusted by 454 00:23:00,316 --> 00:23:02,716 Speaker 1: most music videos. I thought they were cheesy and stupid, 455 00:23:03,036 --> 00:23:04,796 Speaker 1: so I refused to lip sync and we refused to 456 00:23:04,796 --> 00:23:06,836 Speaker 1: perform in them, and fall On Me became kind of 457 00:23:06,836 --> 00:23:10,316 Speaker 1: a minor hit and so in America. And so the 458 00:23:10,436 --> 00:23:13,116 Speaker 1: video I was I shot with a sixteen millimeter camera 459 00:23:13,356 --> 00:23:16,076 Speaker 1: and a rock quarry outside of Bloomington, Indiana, with a 460 00:23:16,076 --> 00:23:17,836 Speaker 1: guy that I had a giant crush on at the time, 461 00:23:18,156 --> 00:23:21,796 Speaker 1: and I developed the film, turned it upside down, ran 462 00:23:21,876 --> 00:23:26,636 Speaker 1: it backwards, ran the words to the song over this 463 00:23:26,876 --> 00:23:29,076 Speaker 1: really shitty black and white footage of a rock quarry, 464 00:23:29,116 --> 00:23:31,916 Speaker 1: and that became the weirdest music video of the year 465 00:23:31,996 --> 00:23:34,516 Speaker 1: on MTV. And so that was a big moment because 466 00:23:34,556 --> 00:23:36,556 Speaker 1: I was like, wow, I can manipulate this. I can 467 00:23:37,636 --> 00:23:39,516 Speaker 1: I can make them do things that they don't want 468 00:23:39,556 --> 00:23:41,276 Speaker 1: to do just because they have to do it because 469 00:23:41,276 --> 00:23:43,676 Speaker 1: the song is that good. Then of course we had 470 00:23:43,676 --> 00:23:46,396 Speaker 1: a hit song, top ten song with the one I 471 00:23:46,436 --> 00:23:48,676 Speaker 1: Love and that was the video was by Robert Longo, 472 00:23:49,076 --> 00:23:53,276 Speaker 1: who's a pop artist and a great friend. And then 473 00:23:53,516 --> 00:23:56,036 Speaker 1: the next big moment after that was was the Green 474 00:23:56,076 --> 00:23:59,076 Speaker 1: World Tour, and then after that was losing my religion. 475 00:23:59,116 --> 00:24:01,716 Speaker 1: And when losing my religion hit, you know, if I 476 00:24:01,756 --> 00:24:04,276 Speaker 1: ever had I'm not a person who has ambitions. If 477 00:24:04,276 --> 00:24:07,756 Speaker 1: they're they're they're unconscious or they're subconscious. I don't know 478 00:24:07,796 --> 00:24:09,916 Speaker 1: which to call it. But I did always want to 479 00:24:09,916 --> 00:24:12,516 Speaker 1: be really famous, and I didn't realize what really that entailed. 480 00:24:13,236 --> 00:24:15,796 Speaker 1: And looking at it from the other side, it's nice 481 00:24:15,796 --> 00:24:18,076 Speaker 1: to be anonymous again. I'm on the subway and nobody 482 00:24:18,116 --> 00:24:19,756 Speaker 1: knows who I am. They don't look at me. If 483 00:24:20,356 --> 00:24:22,316 Speaker 1: anyone under the age of thirty does not even look 484 00:24:22,316 --> 00:24:24,676 Speaker 1: at me, because they just register old. And I'm fine 485 00:24:24,716 --> 00:24:27,876 Speaker 1: with that. It's totally amazing. But losing my religion was 486 00:24:27,876 --> 00:24:30,756 Speaker 1: when I went from being someone that was recognized by 487 00:24:30,756 --> 00:24:33,676 Speaker 1: people in my age group who loved a certain type 488 00:24:33,716 --> 00:24:40,276 Speaker 1: of music to being universally wildly, insanely famous and on 489 00:24:40,316 --> 00:24:43,556 Speaker 1: the street like I couldn't know anywhere, and it was okay. 490 00:24:43,556 --> 00:24:45,716 Speaker 1: It was kind of charming. In New York, people yell 491 00:24:45,836 --> 00:24:47,316 Speaker 1: whatever they want to yell at you. They tell you 492 00:24:47,396 --> 00:24:48,756 Speaker 1: if they like you, they tell you if they think 493 00:24:48,756 --> 00:24:50,876 Speaker 1: you suck, and I kind of love that about New York, 494 00:24:50,876 --> 00:24:53,476 Speaker 1: and I never liked LA because I never knew where 495 00:24:53,476 --> 00:24:56,156 Speaker 1: I stood with people there. Everyone's your friend there. It's 496 00:24:56,356 --> 00:24:59,316 Speaker 1: very isolating and very kind of aggressively calm, and I 497 00:24:59,356 --> 00:25:01,836 Speaker 1: can't stand it. But I'm sorry, Los Angeles. There are 498 00:25:01,876 --> 00:25:03,396 Speaker 1: aspects to it that I love, and there are people 499 00:25:03,396 --> 00:25:06,156 Speaker 1: that I love but can't can't do it. But losing 500 00:25:06,156 --> 00:25:09,516 Speaker 1: my religion really changed it for me. And one thing 501 00:25:09,556 --> 00:25:11,916 Speaker 1: if I ever had an ambition, it might be to 502 00:25:11,996 --> 00:25:14,356 Speaker 1: have a song of the summer, and losing my religion 503 00:25:14,396 --> 00:25:18,196 Speaker 1: became RIM's song of the Summer and that was that 504 00:25:18,236 --> 00:25:21,476 Speaker 1: was thrilling. Yeah, what do you remember about writing first? 505 00:25:21,516 --> 00:25:23,436 Speaker 1: First of all, when you wrote it, did you know 506 00:25:23,516 --> 00:25:27,716 Speaker 1: that song was special? No? No, In fact, we released 507 00:25:27,756 --> 00:25:30,156 Speaker 1: it as a first single thinking that it was going 508 00:25:30,196 --> 00:25:34,116 Speaker 1: to set up the next song, which was something much 509 00:25:34,116 --> 00:25:36,276 Speaker 1: more pop. I don't remember what it was. And then 510 00:25:36,316 --> 00:25:38,556 Speaker 1: eventually I Think Everybody Hurts, which was a big ballad, 511 00:25:38,756 --> 00:25:40,876 Speaker 1: and that became a hit song around the world, and 512 00:25:40,916 --> 00:25:43,316 Speaker 1: so that was also really good for us. But and 513 00:25:43,316 --> 00:25:46,476 Speaker 1: that's a beautiful video as well. Yeah, no, we did. 514 00:25:46,596 --> 00:25:48,156 Speaker 1: We didn't know it was going I mean, it's such 515 00:25:48,156 --> 00:25:49,676 Speaker 1: a weird song. We had no idea that it was 516 00:25:49,716 --> 00:25:52,156 Speaker 1: going to resonate the way that it. What do you 517 00:25:52,196 --> 00:25:54,956 Speaker 1: remember about writing it? I changed one lyric. I remember, 518 00:25:55,116 --> 00:25:56,876 Speaker 1: that's me in the kitchen, that's me in the spotlight. No, 519 00:25:56,956 --> 00:25:59,756 Speaker 1: that's the that's me in the corner. That's me in 520 00:25:59,796 --> 00:26:02,716 Speaker 1: the spotlight. That's me in the corner, that's me in 521 00:26:02,756 --> 00:26:05,436 Speaker 1: the kitchen. So what I was pulling from was being 522 00:26:05,756 --> 00:26:09,276 Speaker 1: the shy wallflower who hangs back at the party or 523 00:26:09,276 --> 00:26:12,276 Speaker 1: at the dance and doesn't go up to the person 524 00:26:12,316 --> 00:26:14,236 Speaker 1: that you're maddly in love with and say, I've kind 525 00:26:14,236 --> 00:26:15,596 Speaker 1: of got a cross on you. How do you feel 526 00:26:15,636 --> 00:26:18,716 Speaker 1: about me? So there's this whole relationship that's happening only 527 00:26:18,716 --> 00:26:22,756 Speaker 1: in the person's mind, and he doesn't know whether he's 528 00:26:23,036 --> 00:26:25,356 Speaker 1: said too much or hasn't said enough. So he's like 529 00:26:25,556 --> 00:26:28,316 Speaker 1: in the corner of the dance floor watching everyone dance 530 00:26:28,356 --> 00:26:31,236 Speaker 1: and watching the love of his life on the dance 531 00:26:31,276 --> 00:26:33,756 Speaker 1: floor dancing with everyone because that's the most exciting person. 532 00:26:34,436 --> 00:26:37,236 Speaker 1: Or he's in the kitchen, you know, behind the refrigerator, 533 00:26:37,516 --> 00:26:41,036 Speaker 1: and I changed the kitchen to spotlight, and instantly, of course, 534 00:26:41,036 --> 00:26:42,836 Speaker 1: the song became about me, which it never was. I 535 00:26:42,836 --> 00:26:46,196 Speaker 1: don't think. I mean, I'm pretty self aware, but the 536 00:26:46,316 --> 00:26:49,836 Speaker 1: video with Tarsaum is what really pushed it over the edge, 537 00:26:49,876 --> 00:26:51,876 Speaker 1: and that was probably the queerest video of all time, 538 00:26:52,236 --> 00:26:55,276 Speaker 1: and that was kind of nice. Yeah, I'm harping on 539 00:26:55,316 --> 00:26:56,836 Speaker 1: it because I heard it the other day in a 540 00:26:56,876 --> 00:27:00,356 Speaker 1: shop that I was in and me and my partner 541 00:27:00,436 --> 00:27:02,356 Speaker 1: stopped and listened to it, and we both looked at 542 00:27:02,356 --> 00:27:04,476 Speaker 1: each other, and I don't know if we actually teared 543 00:27:04,556 --> 00:27:06,716 Speaker 1: up or if we just had the feeling of tearing up, 544 00:27:06,756 --> 00:27:08,996 Speaker 1: do you know what I'm talking about, Like the emotion came. 545 00:27:09,276 --> 00:27:12,636 Speaker 1: I don't know if there were actual tears. It's amazing 546 00:27:12,476 --> 00:27:16,156 Speaker 1: that the song to this day has this power to 547 00:27:16,276 --> 00:27:20,116 Speaker 1: it and I don't truly understand it, you know, I don't. 548 00:27:20,116 --> 00:27:22,636 Speaker 1: I don't know that it's the words. I don't know. 549 00:27:22,756 --> 00:27:25,356 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know why it has so 550 00:27:25,436 --> 00:27:30,356 Speaker 1: much emotional resonance. But it's one of these songs that 551 00:27:30,436 --> 00:27:33,116 Speaker 1: when you hear it, you know, the world stops and 552 00:27:33,156 --> 00:27:36,876 Speaker 1: you're you're put in the place of wherever this song 553 00:27:36,996 --> 00:27:39,836 Speaker 1: is happening, and you're in the void of the song. 554 00:27:40,036 --> 00:27:43,196 Speaker 1: It's mystical. It's very that's very generous. Thank you very much. 555 00:27:43,236 --> 00:27:44,996 Speaker 1: That means a lot to me coming from you. Thank you. 556 00:27:45,516 --> 00:27:47,476 Speaker 1: Just tell me about the experience of writing. Where did 557 00:27:47,476 --> 00:27:50,116 Speaker 1: the music exist first? How did it happen? The music 558 00:27:50,116 --> 00:27:52,836 Speaker 1: has just existed. First, I know that Peter Peter was 559 00:27:53,116 --> 00:27:57,596 Speaker 1: tired of playing guitar and didn't Oriam's former guitars after 560 00:27:57,796 --> 00:28:00,836 Speaker 1: touring for nine ten years in the nineteen eighties, and 561 00:28:00,956 --> 00:28:04,836 Speaker 1: he was buying wild interesting instruments that he did not play, 562 00:28:04,876 --> 00:28:09,356 Speaker 1: and his experimentation as a musician was to throw roads 563 00:28:09,396 --> 00:28:11,476 Speaker 1: in front of himself by trying to play something that 564 00:28:11,516 --> 00:28:14,716 Speaker 1: he couldn't play. So this was one of his first 565 00:28:14,756 --> 00:28:18,036 Speaker 1: experiments on mandolin. We still have the original cassette that 566 00:28:18,076 --> 00:28:20,796 Speaker 1: he gave me of Losing My Religion, and it is 567 00:28:20,796 --> 00:28:25,276 Speaker 1: exactly the same arrangement. It sounds identical to what wound 568 00:28:25,396 --> 00:28:27,796 Speaker 1: up as the final version of the song. So that's 569 00:28:27,796 --> 00:28:32,276 Speaker 1: all Peter. You know, everybody hurts was Bill Berry and Supernatural, 570 00:28:32,276 --> 00:28:35,276 Speaker 1: super serious was Mike Mills. I mean, those guys quite 571 00:28:35,276 --> 00:28:37,876 Speaker 1: often would turn in things that were so brilliant and 572 00:28:38,436 --> 00:28:40,556 Speaker 1: you know, even day, I think in the arrangement they 573 00:28:40,676 --> 00:28:43,316 Speaker 1: might not realize that. Well, I can flesh this out 574 00:28:43,356 --> 00:28:46,516 Speaker 1: with a story I can throw a trajectory and a 575 00:28:46,636 --> 00:28:49,876 Speaker 1: narrative into this and make this arrangement work. Sometimes, no, 576 00:28:50,036 --> 00:28:53,196 Speaker 1: sometimes we had to make a lot of arrangement changes 577 00:28:53,436 --> 00:28:56,116 Speaker 1: in order to fit the vocal or the melody into 578 00:28:56,396 --> 00:29:00,196 Speaker 1: the song. I was always about shorter songs. I always 579 00:29:00,236 --> 00:29:02,436 Speaker 1: wanted to get in and get out, leave him wanting 580 00:29:02,476 --> 00:29:04,876 Speaker 1: more always, and so a lot of the stuff that 581 00:29:04,916 --> 00:29:07,916 Speaker 1: I'm doing as a solo artist is much It's very pop, 582 00:29:08,196 --> 00:29:12,116 Speaker 1: but it's incredibly short songs. Would you start with like 583 00:29:12,156 --> 00:29:14,716 Speaker 1: a scat vocal or would you start by writing? To 584 00:29:14,876 --> 00:29:17,076 Speaker 1: just tell me the process of you? You hear music, 585 00:29:17,396 --> 00:29:20,276 Speaker 1: you're inspired by it. How do you get to a song? 586 00:29:20,596 --> 00:29:24,356 Speaker 1: What's your process? Historically, I hear music and I'm inspired 587 00:29:24,396 --> 00:29:26,316 Speaker 1: by it, and there's a melody that comes along, and 588 00:29:26,356 --> 00:29:29,236 Speaker 1: I close my eyes and I see a landscape and 589 00:29:29,516 --> 00:29:32,836 Speaker 1: music translates to me as as as a visual and 590 00:29:32,916 --> 00:29:36,196 Speaker 1: so a good music. Bad music is just fucking horrible, 591 00:29:36,356 --> 00:29:38,636 Speaker 1: like bad, like what my dentist was playing this morning, 592 00:29:38,636 --> 00:29:41,116 Speaker 1: by the way, I hope he's listening. I was like, 593 00:29:41,356 --> 00:29:42,596 Speaker 1: I was like, we have to we have to talk 594 00:29:42,636 --> 00:29:44,756 Speaker 1: about the music. We have a very good rapport now 595 00:29:44,796 --> 00:29:48,756 Speaker 1: because his dental assistant, and he had very different musical tastes. 596 00:29:48,996 --> 00:29:51,076 Speaker 1: So they'll they'll throw a song on when I'm there 597 00:29:51,196 --> 00:29:53,116 Speaker 1: just to see how I react, and one of them 598 00:29:53,116 --> 00:29:55,196 Speaker 1: will say, Michael, and I'll say, like turn it off now, 599 00:29:55,556 --> 00:29:59,316 Speaker 1: like next, next, next, and she'll crack up because she'll 600 00:29:59,356 --> 00:30:01,236 Speaker 1: have told him he's going to hate this song. This 601 00:30:01,276 --> 00:30:03,316 Speaker 1: is not a good song. Do you write just the 602 00:30:03,396 --> 00:30:05,116 Speaker 1: number of lyrics that are in the song are there's 603 00:30:05,116 --> 00:30:08,356 Speaker 1: sometimes more verses like how does it happen? There's often 604 00:30:08,436 --> 00:30:10,916 Speaker 1: there's often more verses, but it really depends on how 605 00:30:10,996 --> 00:30:13,756 Speaker 1: much I going back to the conversation earlier about trusting 606 00:30:13,796 --> 00:30:15,716 Speaker 1: your gut, you know, when I close my eyes and 607 00:30:15,716 --> 00:30:18,516 Speaker 1: I see that music, I always saw my job as 608 00:30:18,556 --> 00:30:20,276 Speaker 1: my job is now to put a narrative on top 609 00:30:20,316 --> 00:30:22,676 Speaker 1: of that, to create some kind of story that people 610 00:30:22,676 --> 00:30:25,036 Speaker 1: can follow along with. And it doesn't have to make 611 00:30:25,196 --> 00:30:29,156 Speaker 1: really linear sense. I'm really good at not making linear sense. 612 00:30:29,396 --> 00:30:31,636 Speaker 1: Sometimes it makes a lot of sense, and sometimes you 613 00:30:31,676 --> 00:30:35,036 Speaker 1: need a little bit of an indication of what's happening, 614 00:30:35,076 --> 00:30:37,916 Speaker 1: but clues as to what the story is actually about, 615 00:30:38,476 --> 00:30:41,436 Speaker 1: and I hope to provide those as a lyricists. I 616 00:30:41,476 --> 00:30:43,316 Speaker 1: hope that by the end of the song, I will 617 00:30:43,356 --> 00:30:46,236 Speaker 1: have provided some clue to what's going on. I did 618 00:30:46,236 --> 00:30:48,116 Speaker 1: that with RM, and I'm doing it now as a solo, 619 00:30:48,476 --> 00:30:51,596 Speaker 1: so hopefully it's going to work. There's another song that 620 00:30:51,596 --> 00:30:53,996 Speaker 1: we're working on right now. The working title is I'm 621 00:30:54,036 --> 00:30:57,396 Speaker 1: the Charge and everything you need to know about this 622 00:30:57,476 --> 00:31:01,996 Speaker 1: character is in the second verse and the last three words, 623 00:31:01,996 --> 00:31:03,876 Speaker 1: which have nothing to do with the rest of the song, 624 00:31:04,396 --> 00:31:07,156 Speaker 1: But they set up another song which is an entirely 625 00:31:07,196 --> 00:31:10,636 Speaker 1: different piece of music the same character thirty years later. 626 00:31:11,236 --> 00:31:14,436 Speaker 1: And I'm following the arc of this character over time, 627 00:31:14,836 --> 00:31:20,556 Speaker 1: and I'm imbuing this character with this extremely shifting sense 628 00:31:20,636 --> 00:31:25,636 Speaker 1: of self, going from someone who's extremely vulnerable and quite difficult, 629 00:31:25,996 --> 00:31:29,836 Speaker 1: but always in charge, always in power, to someone who's 630 00:31:29,836 --> 00:31:34,716 Speaker 1: extremely invulnerable and almost cynical in their work. But they 631 00:31:34,796 --> 00:31:38,036 Speaker 1: have developed, They've developed this very tough skin, but they're 632 00:31:38,076 --> 00:31:41,436 Speaker 1: now using the vulnerability of their youth to be able 633 00:31:41,476 --> 00:31:46,196 Speaker 1: to create work that, although is uninteresting for them, inspires others. Boy, 634 00:31:46,356 --> 00:31:49,556 Speaker 1: that sounded like a really bad off Broadway played. Admit, 635 00:31:49,636 --> 00:31:52,476 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm talking to myself here and you just 636 00:31:52,516 --> 00:31:54,876 Speaker 1: happen to be present. Sorry, Rick. Anyway, the song is 637 00:31:54,876 --> 00:31:57,276 Speaker 1: called I'm the Charge, and the second song is called 638 00:31:58,396 --> 00:32:00,396 Speaker 1: it doesn't have The working title would be a Pull 639 00:32:00,436 --> 00:32:03,076 Speaker 1: of Love. Will the whole album have an arc like that? 640 00:32:03,196 --> 00:32:05,276 Speaker 1: I don't know yet because I'm still working on it. No, 641 00:32:05,436 --> 00:32:08,156 Speaker 1: I don't tend to write. I will revisit characters from 642 00:32:08,196 --> 00:32:10,876 Speaker 1: time to time, and then I have to question. Often 643 00:32:10,916 --> 00:32:12,996 Speaker 1: I have to question myself, like how did I embody 644 00:32:13,076 --> 00:32:15,796 Speaker 1: this person? What what gender did I make them? What 645 00:32:16,116 --> 00:32:19,196 Speaker 1: political leaning did I give to them? What what horrible 646 00:32:19,236 --> 00:32:20,716 Speaker 1: position did I put them in that they now have 647 00:32:20,756 --> 00:32:22,716 Speaker 1: to work their way out of or have some cathartic 648 00:32:22,756 --> 00:32:24,556 Speaker 1: moment that pulls them out of it, like the song 649 00:32:24,596 --> 00:32:27,796 Speaker 1: Sad Professor, or one of my favorite RIM songs, Country Feedback. 650 00:32:28,396 --> 00:32:31,596 Speaker 1: That song, I think in my memory, I sang it 651 00:32:31,716 --> 00:32:33,716 Speaker 1: one time and that was it. I think. In the 652 00:32:34,316 --> 00:32:37,916 Speaker 1: rerelease the band put out the twenty fifth anniversary rerelease, 653 00:32:38,196 --> 00:32:41,076 Speaker 1: they found a demo. But you hear at the very 654 00:32:41,076 --> 00:32:43,916 Speaker 1: beginning of the song, I say these clothes and I 655 00:32:44,396 --> 00:32:46,716 Speaker 1: pause because I came into early, and then I say, 656 00:32:46,756 --> 00:32:49,036 Speaker 1: these clothes unfit us right, and I'm to blame. It's 657 00:32:49,036 --> 00:32:51,356 Speaker 1: all the same, It's all the same. I didn't know 658 00:32:51,436 --> 00:32:53,996 Speaker 1: the song I hadn't worked it out. I hadn't mapped 659 00:32:53,996 --> 00:32:56,676 Speaker 1: it out. Peter has this memory of me walking into 660 00:32:56,756 --> 00:32:58,756 Speaker 1: the studio with a piece of paper that had a 661 00:32:58,836 --> 00:33:01,596 Speaker 1: drawing of an Indian, a pencil drawing of an Indian 662 00:33:01,636 --> 00:33:03,476 Speaker 1: on it, and a few words on a piece of paper, 663 00:33:03,676 --> 00:33:05,796 Speaker 1: and he said he walked in with that, and that 664 00:33:05,876 --> 00:33:09,076 Speaker 1: was the song, and that became Country Feedback. The working 665 00:33:09,196 --> 00:33:13,196 Speaker 1: title was Country Feedback because it sounds like a country song. 666 00:33:13,236 --> 00:33:17,436 Speaker 1: It was very obviously inspired by Neil Young, and it 667 00:33:17,476 --> 00:33:20,076 Speaker 1: has feedback on feedback aatana, so that the working title 668 00:33:20,156 --> 00:33:24,076 Speaker 1: became the title of the song. I remember performing it, 669 00:33:24,436 --> 00:33:27,756 Speaker 1: and it was at John Keene's studio in Athens, Georgia, 670 00:33:27,836 --> 00:33:31,036 Speaker 1: and it was in a ISO booth, and I was 671 00:33:31,076 --> 00:33:34,396 Speaker 1: in headphones, which I can't stand to sing into because 672 00:33:34,796 --> 00:33:37,316 Speaker 1: the engineers can never get the mix right for me, 673 00:33:37,996 --> 00:33:40,276 Speaker 1: and it makes me crazy. I hear myself too much 674 00:33:40,356 --> 00:33:43,036 Speaker 1: or I don't hear enough, and I like singing into 675 00:33:43,196 --> 00:33:46,036 Speaker 1: an open mic at a desk, but that of course 676 00:33:46,076 --> 00:33:49,396 Speaker 1: causes all kinds of problems with digital technology. Anyway, I 677 00:33:49,476 --> 00:33:53,756 Speaker 1: remember singing it walking out and walking out of the 678 00:33:53,796 --> 00:33:56,156 Speaker 1: house and the studio and I was done that was 679 00:33:56,196 --> 00:34:00,076 Speaker 1: it for the night. I didn't remember it until I 680 00:34:00,116 --> 00:34:01,876 Speaker 1: don't think they even played it for me. The next day, 681 00:34:02,316 --> 00:34:04,356 Speaker 1: the band listened to it, and I think they listened 682 00:34:04,356 --> 00:34:06,636 Speaker 1: to it a few times, and then I came in 683 00:34:06,676 --> 00:34:08,876 Speaker 1: two days later and listened and I was like, this 684 00:34:08,956 --> 00:34:11,116 Speaker 1: is I'm not going to resing it. That's a that's 685 00:34:11,116 --> 00:34:13,236 Speaker 1: the take. I did the same thing with World Leader 686 00:34:13,276 --> 00:34:17,676 Speaker 1: Pretend Rip, another song that the heavy of obvious inspiration 687 00:34:17,756 --> 00:34:20,676 Speaker 1: there was Leonard Cohen. I lifted everything that I could 688 00:34:20,796 --> 00:34:24,716 Speaker 1: from from that beautiful, beautiful writer of a man, beautiful 689 00:34:24,716 --> 00:34:29,076 Speaker 1: man of a writer, and I used, you know, the language, 690 00:34:29,476 --> 00:34:34,956 Speaker 1: the dialect of war to describe an inner battle, a 691 00:34:35,036 --> 00:34:40,356 Speaker 1: deep emotional turmoil inside the protagonist of that song. And 692 00:34:40,476 --> 00:34:42,596 Speaker 1: I sing it once and I was so impressed by 693 00:34:42,636 --> 00:34:45,036 Speaker 1: myself that it was the first time that RM put 694 00:34:45,516 --> 00:34:47,876 Speaker 1: that I allowed the lyrics to be printed on the 695 00:34:47,876 --> 00:34:50,876 Speaker 1: album's sleep that we were I think nine years into 696 00:34:50,916 --> 00:34:52,916 Speaker 1: our career at that point, and I had yet to 697 00:34:53,756 --> 00:34:55,676 Speaker 1: lip sync in a video. I refused to do it. 698 00:34:55,716 --> 00:34:57,756 Speaker 1: I thought it was too cheesy. So we were you know, 699 00:34:57,876 --> 00:35:00,436 Speaker 1: we we I mean, as a band, we always knew 700 00:35:00,476 --> 00:35:02,196 Speaker 1: what we didn't want to do. We knew that we 701 00:35:02,196 --> 00:35:04,196 Speaker 1: didn't want to be cheesy. If we were gonna be cheesy, 702 00:35:04,196 --> 00:35:07,516 Speaker 1: we're gonna be cheesy on our own terms, and god 703 00:35:07,516 --> 00:35:10,436 Speaker 1: knows we were, but they were on our terms, yeah, 704 00:35:10,556 --> 00:35:12,516 Speaker 1: and they were quite beautiful when it happens. You know, 705 00:35:12,876 --> 00:35:14,676 Speaker 1: there was a there was an element of cheese there 706 00:35:14,676 --> 00:35:18,196 Speaker 1: and sinamentality, and that's okay, that's part of pop music. 707 00:35:18,316 --> 00:35:20,476 Speaker 1: But it was on our terms always, and I'm so 708 00:35:20,676 --> 00:35:22,436 Speaker 1: very proud of that. You know, what we left behind 709 00:35:23,076 --> 00:35:26,156 Speaker 1: is this body of work that I include the times 710 00:35:26,156 --> 00:35:27,956 Speaker 1: that we fell on our face publicly, and I did 711 00:35:28,036 --> 00:35:31,196 Speaker 1: many many times, and I humiliated and embarrassed myself over 712 00:35:31,236 --> 00:35:34,916 Speaker 1: and over again in public. But guess what I embraced 713 00:35:34,956 --> 00:35:38,396 Speaker 1: those moments along with the hit singles and the triumphs 714 00:35:38,396 --> 00:35:42,956 Speaker 1: and the moments of absolute joy and being able to 715 00:35:44,036 --> 00:35:47,036 Speaker 1: meet people like yourself and Fatilkhan and Patti Smith and 716 00:35:47,076 --> 00:35:49,996 Speaker 1: Tom Verlaine, my hero. You know, I don't even like guitar, 717 00:35:50,076 --> 00:35:52,636 Speaker 1: and here's Tom Verlaine, you know, the one guy that 718 00:35:52,676 --> 00:35:55,716 Speaker 1: I could actually watch play guitar and not blink for 719 00:35:55,716 --> 00:35:59,076 Speaker 1: forty minutes other than Peter Back, of course. Yeah, what 720 00:35:59,156 --> 00:36:02,396 Speaker 1: a life that provided me, and what a journey I've 721 00:36:02,396 --> 00:36:05,276 Speaker 1: been on. I feel like really a very, very lucky person. 722 00:36:05,316 --> 00:36:09,756 Speaker 1: I had this ridiculous teenage fantasy dream idea of what 723 00:36:09,796 --> 00:36:12,276 Speaker 1: I was going to do with my life, and I actually, 724 00:36:12,356 --> 00:36:14,396 Speaker 1: with a lot of work, I actually made it happen. 725 00:36:14,476 --> 00:36:16,516 Speaker 1: And here I am kind of looking back on it, 726 00:36:16,996 --> 00:36:20,276 Speaker 1: but I'm also looking forward because you know the songs 727 00:36:20,276 --> 00:36:22,996 Speaker 1: that we've put out that I've put out each song 728 00:36:23,356 --> 00:36:26,156 Speaker 1: for the first year of its release. All of the 729 00:36:26,196 --> 00:36:28,156 Speaker 1: money that I would make on that song, whether it's 730 00:36:28,156 --> 00:36:31,236 Speaker 1: through a movie, through a TV show, being in a 731 00:36:31,276 --> 00:36:33,676 Speaker 1: commercial which hasn't happened yet, but I'm offering it up 732 00:36:33,756 --> 00:36:36,796 Speaker 1: right now on this podcast, all of the publishing that 733 00:36:36,876 --> 00:36:38,636 Speaker 1: I would make from the first year of the release 734 00:36:38,636 --> 00:36:42,116 Speaker 1: of that song goes to a charitable organization of my choosing. 735 00:36:42,676 --> 00:36:47,676 Speaker 1: So far, it's been Extinction Rebellion and Pathway to Paris. 736 00:36:47,676 --> 00:36:51,596 Speaker 1: Extinction Rebellion for the first song that I released as 737 00:36:51,596 --> 00:36:56,996 Speaker 1: a solo artist, which is called Your Capricious Soul, and 738 00:36:57,036 --> 00:37:01,316 Speaker 1: then Pathway to Paris is an organization trying to hold 739 00:37:01,556 --> 00:37:04,436 Speaker 1: the United States and other nations to the Paris Agreement 740 00:37:04,676 --> 00:37:07,756 Speaker 1: in terms of environmental a blueprint for where we need 741 00:37:07,796 --> 00:37:10,796 Speaker 1: to go in order to not wipe ourselves out and 742 00:37:11,076 --> 00:37:13,756 Speaker 1: take a lot of other species with us. And that 743 00:37:13,876 --> 00:37:15,596 Speaker 1: was a song called Drive to the Ocean, which I'm 744 00:37:15,876 --> 00:37:18,276 Speaker 1: extremely proud of. And I think I'm just gonna release 745 00:37:18,276 --> 00:37:20,276 Speaker 1: sum a single at a time. I don't feel like 746 00:37:20,316 --> 00:37:24,116 Speaker 1: I need to compete with Duelppa or name Whoever's amazing 747 00:37:24,196 --> 00:37:27,756 Speaker 1: right now? Who's amazing? Rosalia? What the fuck? She? Where 748 00:37:27,756 --> 00:37:31,476 Speaker 1: the fuck did that come from? She's incredible. We'll be 749 00:37:31,556 --> 00:37:33,996 Speaker 1: right back after a break with more from Michael Stipe 750 00:37:34,156 --> 00:37:41,196 Speaker 1: and Rick Rubin. We're back with Michael Stipe, but before 751 00:37:41,196 --> 00:37:44,036 Speaker 1: we jump back into this conversation with Rick, let's hear 752 00:37:44,116 --> 00:37:55,436 Speaker 1: his new song future a future feature. Future feature is 753 00:37:55,716 --> 00:38:14,116 Speaker 1: fast goodtion, co hearted cards, still seats, fly flies words 754 00:38:14,956 --> 00:38:25,876 Speaker 1: ha ha ha I am I am got flight up 755 00:38:26,116 --> 00:38:33,636 Speaker 1: the meek with the event between one stable. Please save 756 00:38:33,876 --> 00:38:46,196 Speaker 1: us a termpion purpose sweeing smacking with ecstatic fresh. Please 757 00:38:46,636 --> 00:39:02,116 Speaker 1: don't stare with doing all week. Please don't stare with 758 00:39:02,956 --> 00:39:18,236 Speaker 1: doing all we can dy come she is a sea. 759 00:39:20,116 --> 00:39:29,556 Speaker 1: We uns much now it's fair. Please don't stare you 760 00:39:29,716 --> 00:39:50,276 Speaker 1: know can future future the futures start to high has 761 00:39:51,436 --> 00:40:08,436 Speaker 1: guess you've got dear us. We've got the power. Please 762 00:40:08,876 --> 00:40:21,036 Speaker 1: tell stay, tell me how that got written, tell me 763 00:40:21,076 --> 00:40:23,276 Speaker 1: the story of writing it. It's one of those songs 764 00:40:23,276 --> 00:40:25,676 Speaker 1: that just flew out, and I didn't think too much 765 00:40:25,676 --> 00:40:28,276 Speaker 1: about the lyric the music. I believe most of the 766 00:40:28,316 --> 00:40:30,676 Speaker 1: music came from Andy Lemster, but we worked together in 767 00:40:30,716 --> 00:40:32,876 Speaker 1: the studio. We you know, I don't play an instrument. 768 00:40:33,036 --> 00:40:35,836 Speaker 1: I played classical piano when I was a child. I 769 00:40:35,836 --> 00:40:38,516 Speaker 1: played accordion as a as a as a very young man. 770 00:40:38,916 --> 00:40:40,396 Speaker 1: I think I was eight or nine years old when 771 00:40:40,396 --> 00:40:43,036 Speaker 1: I picked up accordion, and then I stopped both and 772 00:40:43,316 --> 00:40:46,156 Speaker 1: forgot everything that I knew about music and reading reading 773 00:40:46,236 --> 00:40:49,676 Speaker 1: music because I read classical piano, you know, off the 774 00:40:49,916 --> 00:40:52,196 Speaker 1: off the page. But but I don't play anything. So 775 00:40:52,316 --> 00:40:54,996 Speaker 1: I became the singer in ORIM and that's good and fine. 776 00:40:55,156 --> 00:40:56,836 Speaker 1: And from time to time I would like, you know, 777 00:40:56,956 --> 00:40:58,676 Speaker 1: have a guitar and pretend like I could play it, 778 00:40:58,676 --> 00:41:01,716 Speaker 1: but I couldn't. I still can't play an ef A B. 779 00:41:02,076 --> 00:41:04,956 Speaker 1: But I started writing after RIM disbanded ten years ago. 780 00:41:04,996 --> 00:41:09,116 Speaker 1: I started writing music on synthesizer and really enjoyed the process. 781 00:41:09,196 --> 00:41:12,236 Speaker 1: Us and realize how really difficult composing is. I mean, 782 00:41:12,316 --> 00:41:16,996 Speaker 1: it's a way different story from lyrics and melodies and singing, 783 00:41:17,076 --> 00:41:19,196 Speaker 1: you know, it's just a way different thing. And also 784 00:41:19,756 --> 00:41:23,476 Speaker 1: working on music, I would almost go into a trance state, 785 00:41:23,916 --> 00:41:26,716 Speaker 1: which is good because I would forget who made the music, 786 00:41:26,716 --> 00:41:28,276 Speaker 1: and it was in fact me or me and Andy 787 00:41:28,436 --> 00:41:31,396 Speaker 1: working together. This one is mostly Andy, I think musically, 788 00:41:31,436 --> 00:41:33,916 Speaker 1: and then the lyric flew out of me. I didn't. 789 00:41:33,916 --> 00:41:36,276 Speaker 1: I didn't really question it or overthink it, and I 790 00:41:36,276 --> 00:41:39,556 Speaker 1: think that that's really my superpower now. My superpower as 791 00:41:39,636 --> 00:41:42,756 Speaker 1: the singer of Brim was realizing that as a man 792 00:41:43,316 --> 00:41:46,716 Speaker 1: presenting as a man in my era, in my time period, 793 00:41:46,996 --> 00:41:50,596 Speaker 1: that my vulnerability and my ability to express that vulnerability 794 00:41:50,716 --> 00:41:54,316 Speaker 1: was was really something that we had not seen in 795 00:41:54,356 --> 00:41:58,236 Speaker 1: a way that wasn't just super hyper cheesy and manipulative. 796 00:41:58,476 --> 00:42:02,036 Speaker 1: So that vulnerability became a superpower. Now. I think my 797 00:42:02,036 --> 00:42:05,996 Speaker 1: superpower is recognizing that and my gut is really really good. 798 00:42:06,196 --> 00:42:09,516 Speaker 1: And if I don't overthink things, you know, right, drunk 799 00:42:09,676 --> 00:42:12,156 Speaker 1: edit sober, you take that in extrapolated and you move 800 00:42:12,196 --> 00:42:15,196 Speaker 1: it into a not like Norman Mailer or Gore Vidal 801 00:42:15,316 --> 00:42:19,316 Speaker 1: like universe. I write without thinking, I write, I go in, 802 00:42:19,636 --> 00:42:21,716 Speaker 1: I go into a trance, and I write right right, 803 00:42:21,756 --> 00:42:24,556 Speaker 1: I write, and then I edit and I edit sober, 804 00:42:24,556 --> 00:42:27,556 Speaker 1: and I go, Okay, that's crap. That's bad poetry. That's 805 00:42:28,396 --> 00:42:31,036 Speaker 1: not bad, not great poetry. But if we repeated a 806 00:42:31,036 --> 00:42:33,756 Speaker 1: few times, maybe it's a good chorus. And you use 807 00:42:33,796 --> 00:42:36,436 Speaker 1: those tricks that you learn. But I don't ever think 808 00:42:36,516 --> 00:42:38,556 Speaker 1: things anymore. I just kind of let them flow out, 809 00:42:38,596 --> 00:42:40,836 Speaker 1: and when they're not flowing, I put them aside and 810 00:42:40,876 --> 00:42:43,796 Speaker 1: I go work in photography or other mediums. And I'm 811 00:42:43,836 --> 00:42:45,876 Speaker 1: working in all these different things now. I'm putting out 812 00:42:45,916 --> 00:42:48,556 Speaker 1: photo books and I have a big show in Milan. 813 00:42:48,956 --> 00:42:52,556 Speaker 1: I'm having a solo exhibition at the Ica in Milan 814 00:42:52,676 --> 00:42:55,836 Speaker 1: of all the work that the plastic work that I do, 815 00:42:55,876 --> 00:42:59,196 Speaker 1: the stuff that's sculptural or photo based. And there will 816 00:42:59,236 --> 00:43:02,836 Speaker 1: be a music musical component to that show. But yeah, 817 00:43:02,916 --> 00:43:05,836 Speaker 1: if the music is feeling a little stale, then I 818 00:43:05,916 --> 00:43:08,076 Speaker 1: just jumped to one of my other things, and one 819 00:43:08,076 --> 00:43:09,956 Speaker 1: of my other things, and I come back around and 820 00:43:09,956 --> 00:43:12,156 Speaker 1: I listened to it with fresh years, and they go, well, 821 00:43:12,236 --> 00:43:14,076 Speaker 1: that's one of the worst courses I've ever written, so 822 00:43:14,156 --> 00:43:16,236 Speaker 1: let's re examine it. I want to I want to 823 00:43:16,236 --> 00:43:18,596 Speaker 1: come to the show in Milan. When that happens, beautiful 824 00:43:18,636 --> 00:43:21,436 Speaker 1: It's opening. In early November twenty three, you said something 825 00:43:21,516 --> 00:43:26,636 Speaker 1: interesting that your superpower in RM was your vulnerability. When 826 00:43:26,636 --> 00:43:28,996 Speaker 1: did you realize that, because I imagine in the early 827 00:43:29,076 --> 00:43:31,716 Speaker 1: days you were just vulnerable. You weren't somebody who understood 828 00:43:31,716 --> 00:43:34,716 Speaker 1: that your vulnerability was a superpower. No, I didn't understand 829 00:43:34,716 --> 00:43:36,236 Speaker 1: that at all. I didn't understand. I mean I didn't 830 00:43:36,276 --> 00:43:38,356 Speaker 1: understand from the very early moment that we spoke about, 831 00:43:38,396 --> 00:43:40,276 Speaker 1: where I decided at the age of fifteen that I 832 00:43:40,276 --> 00:43:42,036 Speaker 1: was going to become a singer in a band. It 833 00:43:42,076 --> 00:43:43,756 Speaker 1: didn't occur to me that you have to You have 834 00:43:43,756 --> 00:43:45,356 Speaker 1: to have a modic amout talent. You have to be 835 00:43:45,396 --> 00:43:47,276 Speaker 1: able to do something. You have to be able to 836 00:43:47,316 --> 00:43:49,156 Speaker 1: stand on stage and perform. You have to be able 837 00:43:49,196 --> 00:43:51,036 Speaker 1: to write songs. You have to be able to sing 838 00:43:51,076 --> 00:43:53,876 Speaker 1: those songs. You have to work with other people. You 839 00:43:53,876 --> 00:43:56,596 Speaker 1: have to travel NonStop, you have to eat really shitty 840 00:43:56,636 --> 00:44:00,756 Speaker 1: food most of that time. You have adrenaline and addiction 841 00:44:00,836 --> 00:44:04,436 Speaker 1: issues to deal with, because adrenaline is the most hardcore 842 00:44:04,476 --> 00:44:06,276 Speaker 1: drug I've ever ever in my life taken and not 843 00:44:06,396 --> 00:44:08,596 Speaker 1: taken everything. But you know, I quit drugs when I 844 00:44:08,596 --> 00:44:11,516 Speaker 1: was twenty three, I drink occasionally. Now I still love 845 00:44:11,556 --> 00:44:13,116 Speaker 1: to drink, but I know it's not good for me, 846 00:44:13,156 --> 00:44:15,076 Speaker 1: so I try to limit it. I'm thinking about going 847 00:44:15,076 --> 00:44:17,596 Speaker 1: back to gummies. You know. I'm excited here in New York. 848 00:44:17,596 --> 00:44:20,476 Speaker 1: You know, it's it's now illegal, and I haven't touched 849 00:44:20,476 --> 00:44:23,556 Speaker 1: weeds since I was seventeen years old. So although actually 850 00:44:23,716 --> 00:44:25,756 Speaker 1: the truth says, I worked on a record with a 851 00:44:25,756 --> 00:44:30,236 Speaker 1: Fisher Spooner kind of accidentally reintroduced me to music about 852 00:44:30,276 --> 00:44:32,956 Speaker 1: five years ago, and I wound up producing their album, 853 00:44:32,956 --> 00:44:34,636 Speaker 1: and it's a it's a really good record, culled sir, 854 00:44:35,116 --> 00:44:37,756 Speaker 1: And it's a very very very very very queer, very 855 00:44:37,796 --> 00:44:41,676 Speaker 1: gay record in terms of its thematic content and it's trajectory. 856 00:44:41,756 --> 00:44:45,716 Speaker 1: But in writing that record, I experimented with weed a 857 00:44:45,716 --> 00:44:47,516 Speaker 1: little bit, and I smoked weed for the first time 858 00:44:47,596 --> 00:44:51,756 Speaker 1: since Wow, I was a kid, and some pretty good 859 00:44:51,756 --> 00:44:53,316 Speaker 1: songs came out of it. I have to say, so, 860 00:44:53,596 --> 00:44:57,356 Speaker 1: who knows, I'm excited. I'm really really sensitive, Like I'm 861 00:44:57,396 --> 00:44:59,996 Speaker 1: really sensitive. I'm allergic to all these foods and I'm 862 00:45:00,036 --> 00:45:01,676 Speaker 1: allergic to all this stuff, and I have to be 863 00:45:01,796 --> 00:45:03,796 Speaker 1: very careful, you know, like what kind of things I 864 00:45:03,836 --> 00:45:05,796 Speaker 1: breathe and all this blah blah blah. But so I 865 00:45:05,836 --> 00:45:08,476 Speaker 1: can take the tiniest amount of weed that would, you know, 866 00:45:08,556 --> 00:45:11,796 Speaker 1: the what other people wouldn't even feel, and it knocks 867 00:45:11,796 --> 00:45:14,636 Speaker 1: me over, but it makes for a really good lyric writing. 868 00:45:14,836 --> 00:45:16,836 Speaker 1: So maybe I'll maybe I'm going to move into weed now. 869 00:45:17,036 --> 00:45:19,716 Speaker 1: That'll be a third act for me. What's your favorite 870 00:45:19,716 --> 00:45:21,556 Speaker 1: song on the Fisher Spooner record. Well, the one that 871 00:45:21,596 --> 00:45:24,396 Speaker 1: I wrote We Too is called I Need Love, and 872 00:45:24,436 --> 00:45:26,596 Speaker 1: I'm actually I'm thinking about covering it. I think it's 873 00:45:26,596 --> 00:45:29,996 Speaker 1: such a good song. What motivated you to feel like 874 00:45:30,036 --> 00:45:32,796 Speaker 1: it's time to do a solo project? It's it's interesting 875 00:45:32,836 --> 00:45:34,876 Speaker 1: that you haven't done one yet, and the fact that 876 00:45:34,916 --> 00:45:37,796 Speaker 1: now you're deciding to do one makes it interesting. With 877 00:45:37,836 --> 00:45:40,356 Speaker 1: this window of time, I can be really honest, and 878 00:45:40,356 --> 00:45:42,036 Speaker 1: I've said this before, but I love my voice. I 879 00:45:42,076 --> 00:45:43,956 Speaker 1: love my singing voice. I don't like my speaking voice, 880 00:45:43,996 --> 00:45:47,076 Speaker 1: although I'm really glad we're talking, but I love my voice, 881 00:45:47,116 --> 00:45:48,916 Speaker 1: and I feel like I have a limited amount of 882 00:45:48,956 --> 00:45:50,916 Speaker 1: time in which to use that voice. You know, I 883 00:45:50,956 --> 00:45:52,876 Speaker 1: kind of feel like, I mean, I'm not a Christian, 884 00:45:52,916 --> 00:45:55,996 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm a deeply spiritual person, but I don't 885 00:45:55,996 --> 00:45:59,396 Speaker 1: really follow any particular path, but I do feel in 886 00:45:59,436 --> 00:46:01,836 Speaker 1: a way that I don't know. I've got a beautiful voice, 887 00:46:01,836 --> 00:46:03,596 Speaker 1: and I really I really enjoy it, and a lot 888 00:46:03,636 --> 00:46:06,156 Speaker 1: of people like hearing me sing, and music has a 889 00:46:06,196 --> 00:46:08,636 Speaker 1: really powerful medium, and I feel like I've got a 890 00:46:08,636 --> 00:46:11,516 Speaker 1: lot to say, so why not use that voice and 891 00:46:11,676 --> 00:46:15,196 Speaker 1: stop talking, just get back to sing. And I enjoyed 892 00:46:15,196 --> 00:46:18,476 Speaker 1: a lot. It's My first real love was photography, and 893 00:46:18,636 --> 00:46:20,876 Speaker 1: I've now been putting on a book a year and 894 00:46:21,036 --> 00:46:22,556 Speaker 1: I intend to do that for the rest of my life, 895 00:46:22,556 --> 00:46:24,116 Speaker 1: and I hope that I love a really long time. 896 00:46:24,556 --> 00:46:26,716 Speaker 1: We have forty or fifty more books coming as much 897 00:46:26,756 --> 00:46:30,236 Speaker 1: as as much as I find immense joy and putting 898 00:46:30,276 --> 00:46:33,556 Speaker 1: together images that I've taken or things that I've collected 899 00:46:33,876 --> 00:46:36,876 Speaker 1: and showing them to kind of introduce the way that 900 00:46:36,956 --> 00:46:39,196 Speaker 1: I see and feel and interpret the world and the 901 00:46:39,196 --> 00:46:40,876 Speaker 1: way that I moved through it, because I do feel like, 902 00:46:41,156 --> 00:46:42,756 Speaker 1: you know, we're all unique in our own ways, right, 903 00:46:42,836 --> 00:46:45,796 Speaker 1: We're all little snowflakes. But but there is there is 904 00:46:45,836 --> 00:46:48,836 Speaker 1: something to the way I put things together that I 905 00:46:48,916 --> 00:46:52,396 Speaker 1: think is enjoyable for other people. So I really like 906 00:46:52,876 --> 00:46:56,356 Speaker 1: doing that but nothing beats coming up with a lyric 907 00:46:56,396 --> 00:47:00,476 Speaker 1: and a melody that people come back to you two days, 908 00:47:00,516 --> 00:47:02,996 Speaker 1: three days, four days later and say, I can't stop 909 00:47:03,276 --> 00:47:06,076 Speaker 1: singing your song. Thank you for that. That song was 910 00:47:06,116 --> 00:47:07,876 Speaker 1: there for me at a very important moment for me. 911 00:47:08,276 --> 00:47:10,956 Speaker 1: You know that kind of I sang last night. In fact, Rick, 912 00:47:11,116 --> 00:47:13,756 Speaker 1: you knew how Wellner, I'm sure. And we had a 913 00:47:13,796 --> 00:47:16,436 Speaker 1: memorial for him the last night at Saint Anne's warehouse, 914 00:47:16,476 --> 00:47:19,156 Speaker 1: and I did a song written by his best friend 915 00:47:19,236 --> 00:47:22,836 Speaker 1: lou Reid that I had covered for the Velvet Underground 916 00:47:23,276 --> 00:47:26,436 Speaker 1: record that came out with Todd Haynes's documentary, and I 917 00:47:26,756 --> 00:47:29,196 Speaker 1: told how I said I would participate in the project 918 00:47:29,276 --> 00:47:32,956 Speaker 1: if I could have the first song on. It's a 919 00:47:32,996 --> 00:47:35,396 Speaker 1: recreation of the first album by the Velvet Underground, which 920 00:47:35,836 --> 00:47:37,556 Speaker 1: in my life ranks as one of the top five 921 00:47:37,596 --> 00:47:41,156 Speaker 1: records of all times. You have to interpret music like 922 00:47:41,196 --> 00:47:44,116 Speaker 1: that in the same way that you interpreted Hurt. And 923 00:47:44,516 --> 00:47:47,716 Speaker 1: handed that to Johnny Cash and said do what you'd 924 00:47:47,756 --> 00:47:50,436 Speaker 1: do with this, and he took that and he made 925 00:47:50,476 --> 00:47:52,476 Speaker 1: it a better song than it ever was or ever 926 00:47:52,516 --> 00:47:54,396 Speaker 1: will be again. And we have you to thank for that. 927 00:47:54,836 --> 00:47:57,876 Speaker 1: And Mark Romanick did the video for that correct. Yes, beautiful, 928 00:47:57,916 --> 00:48:01,036 Speaker 1: astonishing video with June, one of the most It's really 929 00:48:01,076 --> 00:48:04,396 Speaker 1: one of those like moments. And you know, I know 930 00:48:04,436 --> 00:48:06,516 Speaker 1: you're not a boastful person, but you should be very 931 00:48:06,596 --> 00:48:10,196 Speaker 1: very proud of that moment that you offered us just 932 00:48:10,356 --> 00:48:13,996 Speaker 1: in that one single collaboration. That's such a beautiful, beautiful thing. 933 00:48:14,196 --> 00:48:15,756 Speaker 1: Do you like singing in front of people? Do you 934 00:48:15,756 --> 00:48:18,196 Speaker 1: like the feeling of how being in front of an audience? 935 00:48:18,676 --> 00:48:20,876 Speaker 1: I've blacked out last night on stage because there were 936 00:48:20,876 --> 00:48:22,956 Speaker 1: no vocals in the monitor, and I just went into 937 00:48:23,156 --> 00:48:27,156 Speaker 1: kind of I had rehearsed it three times, so I 938 00:48:27,156 --> 00:48:29,756 Speaker 1: don't really remember the performance, but everything before it and 939 00:48:29,796 --> 00:48:31,396 Speaker 1: after it was okay. As soon as I found out 940 00:48:31,396 --> 00:48:34,756 Speaker 1: that the voice was actually in the house, then I 941 00:48:34,876 --> 00:48:37,156 Speaker 1: was okay. I couldn't tell if my voice was actually 942 00:48:37,196 --> 00:48:39,676 Speaker 1: being projected into the house or not. But yeah, when 943 00:48:39,716 --> 00:48:42,556 Speaker 1: you do something that's not just one song at a 944 00:48:42,596 --> 00:48:45,836 Speaker 1: memorial or on a TV show, you know, you go 945 00:48:45,836 --> 00:48:48,356 Speaker 1: into a journalized state. And as I mentioned earlier, that's 946 00:48:48,716 --> 00:48:51,676 Speaker 1: the most powerful drug I've ever taken. And it's why 947 00:48:51,716 --> 00:48:54,836 Speaker 1: I think so many of our people, and I'm speaking 948 00:48:54,836 --> 00:48:57,596 Speaker 1: of creative people wind up in trouble because you you 949 00:48:57,636 --> 00:49:00,276 Speaker 1: come off of a tour, you wind up, you finish 950 00:49:00,316 --> 00:49:02,076 Speaker 1: a movie, or you know, if you're in the heart 951 00:49:02,116 --> 00:49:04,716 Speaker 1: of Globe Shatters, or if you're you're a professional athlete, 952 00:49:05,156 --> 00:49:07,556 Speaker 1: you stopped the tour and your adournaline is writing at 953 00:49:07,596 --> 00:49:10,876 Speaker 1: a rate that's superhuman, and you can't really match that 954 00:49:10,996 --> 00:49:13,356 Speaker 1: with with anything. The only thing that I found, and 955 00:49:13,396 --> 00:49:17,716 Speaker 1: I started this in the late eighties to combat that um, 956 00:49:17,756 --> 00:49:23,236 Speaker 1: that hyper adrenalized state, was acupuncture. A lot of body work, 957 00:49:23,276 --> 00:49:26,396 Speaker 1: but mainly acupuncture really helps a lot to kind of 958 00:49:26,436 --> 00:49:31,076 Speaker 1: retune the endocrine system in particularly the kidneys to kidney energy. 959 00:49:31,116 --> 00:49:34,156 Speaker 1: As a Chinese would call it beautiful. So it's almost 960 00:49:34,196 --> 00:49:36,636 Speaker 1: like it's just that the nervous system is on high 961 00:49:36,676 --> 00:49:38,756 Speaker 1: alert and you just need to calm it down, and 962 00:49:39,116 --> 00:49:41,796 Speaker 1: it seems like acupuncture does that fight or flight. And 963 00:49:41,796 --> 00:49:43,636 Speaker 1: then you know, after after you make an album, and 964 00:49:43,676 --> 00:49:45,996 Speaker 1: you know this from from working on from working as 965 00:49:46,036 --> 00:49:48,476 Speaker 1: a producer and otherwise, you know that you have this 966 00:49:48,556 --> 00:49:51,236 Speaker 1: kind of postpartum You know, you work, you intensely work 967 00:49:51,276 --> 00:49:54,396 Speaker 1: on something, so you put everything that you are into 968 00:49:54,436 --> 00:49:56,716 Speaker 1: it and then it's over. And whether it's a tour 969 00:49:56,836 --> 00:49:58,756 Speaker 1: or a record or what what, what have you? You 970 00:49:58,796 --> 00:50:00,916 Speaker 1: go through this kind of postpartum and the adnal, the 971 00:50:00,916 --> 00:50:03,276 Speaker 1: adrenaline has to go back down to not a fight 972 00:50:03,356 --> 00:50:06,076 Speaker 1: or flight kind of place, and for most people that's very, 973 00:50:06,156 --> 00:50:09,236 Speaker 1: very difficult, and to try to try to mimic the 974 00:50:09,476 --> 00:50:12,756 Speaker 1: high that you get from adrenaline is literally impossible. Well, 975 00:50:12,796 --> 00:50:15,036 Speaker 1: I want to thank you just for the songs. There's 976 00:50:15,156 --> 00:50:18,436 Speaker 1: so many songs that you've written that have meant so 977 00:50:18,516 --> 00:50:21,796 Speaker 1: much and that are so beautiful, and uh, I just 978 00:50:21,796 --> 00:50:24,356 Speaker 1: want to thank you because I love them. I love 979 00:50:24,396 --> 00:50:26,916 Speaker 1: the songs. Thank you, Rick, and I love you and 980 00:50:27,076 --> 00:50:30,436 Speaker 1: I love how well I love receiving compliments from you. 981 00:50:31,116 --> 00:50:35,396 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, thank you. I'm I'm really um, you know, 982 00:50:35,516 --> 00:50:38,556 Speaker 1: I can, I can pretend to have humility, but I'm 983 00:50:38,556 --> 00:50:40,356 Speaker 1: really proud of a lot of the work that I've 984 00:50:40,396 --> 00:50:42,916 Speaker 1: done in my short time on this earth, And thank you. 985 00:50:42,996 --> 00:50:46,036 Speaker 1: I really appreciate that. Obviously, I'm a giant fan of 986 00:50:46,076 --> 00:50:47,836 Speaker 1: your work, and um, and it's a it's a good 987 00:50:47,876 --> 00:50:49,996 Speaker 1: pleasure after all these years. We haven't seen each other 988 00:50:50,036 --> 00:50:51,636 Speaker 1: in some time, huh, in a while, but it's really 989 00:50:51,676 --> 00:50:53,476 Speaker 1: it's really great to talk to you and be able 990 00:50:53,516 --> 00:50:56,516 Speaker 1: to just unravel some of these some of these threads, 991 00:50:56,596 --> 00:50:58,836 Speaker 1: huh same and we will change that and see each 992 00:50:58,876 --> 00:51:01,156 Speaker 1: other soon, I know at one one place or another, 993 00:51:01,316 --> 00:51:04,996 Speaker 1: maybe in Milan, you never know. Please come to Milan. Okay, great? 994 00:51:05,116 --> 00:51:10,996 Speaker 1: Thanks bye. Thanks to Michael Stipe for given insight into 995 00:51:10,996 --> 00:51:13,956 Speaker 1: his early days with RM and sharing details about his 996 00:51:14,076 --> 00:51:17,516 Speaker 1: upcoming solo project. To hear our favorite RM and Stipe 997 00:51:17,556 --> 00:51:20,956 Speaker 1: solo songs, check out the playlist at Broken Record podcast 998 00:51:21,036 --> 00:51:24,156 Speaker 1: dot com. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel 999 00:51:24,236 --> 00:51:27,276 Speaker 1: at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast, where we 1000 00:51:27,316 --> 00:51:30,236 Speaker 1: can find all of our new episodes. You can follow 1001 00:51:30,316 --> 00:51:33,316 Speaker 1: us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is producing 1002 00:51:33,396 --> 00:51:37,236 Speaker 1: help from ly Arose, Jason Gambrell, Beentaladay, Eric Sandler, and 1003 00:51:37,356 --> 00:51:41,396 Speaker 1: Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chaffe. Our executive 1004 00:51:41,396 --> 00:51:45,156 Speaker 1: producer is Neil Aval. Broken Record is a production of 1005 00:51:45,196 --> 00:51:48,316 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. If you like this show and others from Pushkin, 1006 00:51:48,476 --> 00:51:52,356 Speaker 1: consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast 1007 00:51:52,396 --> 00:51:56,316 Speaker 1: subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted ad free listening 1008 00:51:56,436 --> 00:51:59,516 Speaker 1: for four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus 1009 00:51:59,556 --> 00:52:02,876 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts subscriptions, and if you like the show, 1010 00:52:02,996 --> 00:52:05,316 Speaker 1: Please remember to share, rate, and review us on your 1011 00:52:05,356 --> 00:52:09,076 Speaker 1: podcast app. For the musics by Kenny Beats, I'm justin Richmond. 1012 00:52:10,156 --> 00:52:10,436 Speaker 1: Four