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Speaker 1: People think that you were born with your personality and

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Speaker 1: you're just stuck with it. But just because you've always

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Speaker 1: been a certain way doesn't mean you have to stay

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Speaker 1: that way. Alga Hazad, the author of Me But Better,

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Speaker 1: The Science.

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Speaker 2: And Promise of personality shame. Can an introvert actually become

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Speaker 2: an extra if they want to?

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Speaker 1: Rather than permanently changing? Learn the ability to try on

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Speaker 1: this personality trade put on extraversion?

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Speaker 2: Is there an age at which it's impossible to change

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Speaker 2: our personality?

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Speaker 1: Some people change more after their thirty Different choices that

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Speaker 1: we make can change us throughout our lives.

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Speaker 2: What's the difference between changing our habits and changing our

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Speaker 2: personality traits?

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Speaker 1: So you can actually fake it until you make it.

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Speaker 1: Once you do your habits often enough, they will become

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Speaker 1: part of your personality and it won't feel fake anymore.

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Speaker 1: It'll feel like it's part of your identities both.

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Speaker 2: How does this apply to people who had diagnosed with

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Speaker 2: depression or ADHD? Can they also change? Is that very different?

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Speaker 1: There's actually been this push in psychology to identify the

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Speaker 1: personality traits that are associated with things like depression and ADHD,

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Speaker 1: and actually has gone head to head with Lexibro the

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Speaker 1: anti depressant and it works just as well.

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Speaker 2: The number one health and wellness podcast Jay Setty, Jay

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Speaker 2: Chetty See Only Jetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming back to listen, learn

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Speaker 2: and grow. Today's guest is Olga Hasan, an award winning

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Speaker 2: writer for The Atlantic and the author of Me But Better,

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Speaker 2: The Science and Practice of Personality Change. In her work,

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Speaker 2: she dives deep into the science of why we are

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Speaker 2: the way we are, and more importantly, how we can

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Speaker 2: actually change it. Olga hasn't just reported on the research,

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Speaker 2: but actually experimented on herself to see if changing your

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Speaker 2: personality is really possible. Please welcome to On Purpose, Olga

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Speaker 2: asan Olga, thank you so much for being here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks so much for having me Oga.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to dive straight in, and the first thing

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Speaker 2: I wanted to ask you is, if someone listens to

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Speaker 2: this episode, if someone reads your book, what are you

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Speaker 2: hoping they can change and shift in their life? What

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Speaker 2: are you hoping for them?

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Speaker 1: I hope that they realize that whatever is kind of

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Speaker 1: wrong in their life or not working for them currently,

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Speaker 1: that they can change that no matter what age they

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Speaker 1: are or where they live or what kind of job

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Speaker 1: they have, you know, if they feel like they don't

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Speaker 1: have enough community support, they don't have enough friends, that

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Speaker 1: they can go out and make those friends. If they

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Speaker 1: feel like their progression in their career is being blocked

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Speaker 1: by inability to publicly speak or connect with large audiences,

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Speaker 1: that they can learn those skills, you know, if they

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Speaker 1: feel kind of disorganized or like they can't really get motivated,

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Speaker 1: that they can learn organizational skills and make that happen

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Speaker 1: for themselves. So it's really just whatever your goals are,

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Speaker 1: and that you're able to align your traits and your

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Speaker 1: behavior with your goals.

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Speaker 2: I love that. I mean that sounds like something we

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Speaker 2: all need and applies to each and every one of us.

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Speaker 2: How did you discover this to be a block? Like

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Speaker 2: when did you recognize that this was a block for people?

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Speaker 2: And what was that block that you were facing in

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Speaker 2: trying to sew.

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Speaker 1: It was really just that I was very unhappy and

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Speaker 1: there was no particular reason for it. So it wasn't like, oh,

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Speaker 1: if this just gets resolved, I'll be happy again, you know.

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Speaker 1: I kind of start my book with this anecdote about

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Speaker 1: being in Miami in December a beautiful time to be

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Speaker 1: in Miami. You know, the weather is unimpeachable, cannot be

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Speaker 1: improved upon, staying in this great place, having a great

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Speaker 1: work life balance. Things with my partner were good. It

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Speaker 1: was before we had our baby, so we weren't tired.

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Speaker 1: But I just had this day where I had all

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Speaker 1: these like minor frustrations. You know. I got a really

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Speaker 1: bad haircut, and I got stuck in traffic, and I

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Speaker 1: got some photos taken to me that I wasn't crazy about.

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Speaker 1: I was just like, I hate these photos, and I

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Speaker 1: knew they were going to be released widely. I had

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Speaker 1: this like frustrating incident at a grocery store, and I

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Speaker 1: get back to our airbnb where we're staying, and I

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Speaker 1: just kind of have a meltdown and I kind of

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Speaker 1: feel just broadly unhappy with everything.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: I immediately turned to alcohol, which is what I would

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Speaker 1: do at the time to manage my emotions. And I

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Speaker 1: was just sort of so frustrated. And then even like

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Speaker 1: a few minutes later, I kind of thought, Hey, why

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Speaker 1: am I Why is this all getting to me? Like

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Speaker 1: if you look at anything about this situation, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm in this beautiful setting, nothing is really wrong. I

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Speaker 1: didn't get in a car accident, or you know, I

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Speaker 1: wasn't even late for anything. You know, I didn't get

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Speaker 1: fired from my job, my air whatever goes back. I

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Speaker 1: kind of realized that so often minor frustrations would really

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Speaker 1: add up to me because of my high level of

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Speaker 1: this trait called neuroticism, which is kind of associated with

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Speaker 1: depression and anxiety, and so I kind of would get

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Speaker 1: in these negative spirals where I would kind of add

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Speaker 1: up these small things, these small negative events, and let

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Speaker 1: them kind of ruin my whole day or my whole week,

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Speaker 1: or start this narrative where my life is so bad

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Speaker 1: I can never be happy because these small frustrations happen

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Speaker 1: to me. And I decided to kind of try to

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Speaker 1: change that, because you're never going to have a life

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Speaker 1: without small frustrations, Like nothing is ever going to go perfectly,

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Speaker 1: So the only way to be happy is to be

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Speaker 1: able to be happy despite that.

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Speaker 2: How did that link to personality?

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Speaker 1: There are some interesting research coming out that people can

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Speaker 1: actually change their personality traits, and when they do change

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Speaker 1: their personality traits, they actually become happier, healthier, whatever it

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Speaker 1: is that that trait is correlated with it can really

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Speaker 1: kind of increase all these positive elements of their lives.

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Speaker 1: And so we think of personality as something that we're

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Speaker 1: just kind of stuck with, Like I am this kind

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Speaker 1: of person and this is what I will always do.

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Speaker 1: I'm the kind of person who will always get frustrated

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Speaker 1: by small inconveniences. But really, we have the ability to

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Speaker 1: change the way we respond to situations. We have the

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Speaker 1: ability to change our behaviors, even our kind of typical

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Speaker 1: thought patterns, and really by changing those consistently, we have

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Speaker 1: the ability to change personality. So that's kind of when

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Speaker 1: I was like, maybe I should try a version of

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Speaker 1: this for myself.

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Speaker 2: What is personality? Like? How do you define it? Because

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Speaker 2: I feel like he gets thrown around and then it

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Speaker 2: gets mixed with so many different words. How do you

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Speaker 2: define it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people are like, oh, is it

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Speaker 1: like the kind of jokes you tell, or you know,

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Speaker 1: whether you're kind of loud and boisterous, those are all

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Speaker 1: kind of elements of personality. The way that personality scientists

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Speaker 1: define it is the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors that come

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Speaker 1: most naturally to you. So something happens, someone honks at you,

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Speaker 1: at a red light, you know, or something you know?

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Speaker 1: Do you flip them off? Do you wave at them

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Speaker 1: because you're really good natured, you know, do you you know,

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Speaker 1: meditate to yourself? That kind of shows your personality. And

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Speaker 1: the researcher that I follow the most for this book

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Speaker 1: Nathan Hudson, who has done a lot of the research

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Speaker 1: on personality change. He actually adds another element to that,

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Speaker 1: which is that personality helps you get what you want.

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Speaker 1: So personality is how we go about pursuing our goals. Agreeableness,

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Speaker 1: which is another personality trait, can help you make more friends,

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Speaker 1: It can attract people to you. It can kind of

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Speaker 1: make you, you know, one of those people as like

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Speaker 1: a huge bridal party at your wedding. Conscientiousness can help you,

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Speaker 1: you know, get up earlier, get more done during the day,

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Speaker 1: get promotions at work, and things like that, if that's

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Speaker 1: what you're into. So kind of on top of being

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Speaker 1: this like reflex and habit, it's also a way that

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Speaker 1: we pursue what we want out of life.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think all of us feel so stuck

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Speaker 2: in who we are and start to believe things like

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Speaker 2: I'm just not a funny person, I'm just a disorganized person.

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Speaker 2: I'm just a negative person. Why do we get so stuck?

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Speaker 1: I think it's because we've been told for a long

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Speaker 1: time that personality is permanent and that we just are

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Speaker 1: a certain way. I think some of this comes from

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Speaker 1: the fact that personality is partly genetic. So you think that,

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Speaker 1: you know, if something is genetic, it's inherited, You're going

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Speaker 1: to be just like your parents parents. What are your

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Speaker 1: parents like? They're like this, and that you're going to

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Speaker 1: be a combo of that. It doesn't really work that way.

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Speaker 1: We do. Obviously, personality is like everything, partly genetic, but

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Speaker 1: that means that it's kind of a combination of different genes.

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Speaker 1: The environment that you're in, and also your own decisions

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Speaker 1: and your own actions and what you choose to do

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Speaker 1: can shape your personality. But I think for a long time,

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Speaker 1: the way scientists have talked about it, it sort of

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Speaker 1: did feel like a death sentence, kind of like you're

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Speaker 1: going to be this way forever, you know. The famous

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Speaker 1: uh William James quote personality is set like plaster after

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Speaker 1: the age of thirty, and so especially after thirty, people

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Speaker 1: think that they're stuck being a certain way. But really

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Speaker 1: the more recent psychological literature has shown that people actually

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Speaker 1: change both naturally just like without really trying to. They

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Speaker 1: kind of change over time, and people can also change

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Speaker 1: over shorter periods of time by taking concerted effort.

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Speaker 2: Do we know how much personality is nature of vesus? Natcha.

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Speaker 1: It depends on the trait and kind of the person.

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Speaker 1: But it's about forty to sixty percent heritable, and I

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Speaker 1: want to caveat that heavily. So that means it's let's say,

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Speaker 1: let's call it half comes from your genes. But if

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Speaker 1: you think about it, you're not like your parents twin, right,

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Speaker 1: So your genes, you get genes from them, but they

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Speaker 1: kind of get combined in these unexpected ways, and they

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Speaker 1: might manifest in different ways depending on the environment that

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Speaker 1: you grew up, the environment that you live in, now,

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Speaker 1: what kind of job you have, And so it's really

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Speaker 1: this gene environment interaction that creates a lot of unpredictability

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Speaker 1: in how your personality is going to manifest. Just because

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Speaker 1: you know that you have something genetically doesn't mean that

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Speaker 1: you're kind of doomed to be that way or that

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Speaker 1: it's definitely going to turn out a certain way.

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Speaker 2: Is there an age from which we can't change your personality.

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Speaker 2: You just gave that example of you know that old

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Speaker 2: core about the idea of thirty and it's sett in plaster.

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Speaker 2: Is there an age at which it's impossible to change

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Speaker 2: your personality?

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Speaker 1: There have been studies that show that some people change

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Speaker 1: more after they're thirty than before. So most people change

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Speaker 1: a lot during their teen years and especially during their

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Speaker 1: early twenties, So that's a time of makes very rapid change.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people kind of become a version of

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Speaker 1: who they'll be for a part of their life during

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Speaker 1: that time. Both in my interviews with people and in

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Speaker 1: just the scientific literature, people kind of change throughout their

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Speaker 1: lives across all the traits. Different life events can change us.

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Speaker 1: Different social roles, different goals that we have, and different

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Speaker 1: kind of choices that we make can change us throughout

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Speaker 1: our lives.

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Speaker 2: I like how everything you mentioned the things that people

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Speaker 2: want to change for themselves, but not changing for people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's been a big misconception about this topic,

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Speaker 1: as people are like, well, I don't want to change

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Speaker 1: my personality to please anyone. I don't do that. Don't

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Speaker 1: change your personality to please anyone, Like that's definitely not

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Speaker 1: my message. I think you should change your personality to

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Speaker 1: please yourself and to get what you want out of life,

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Speaker 1: not to please other people. So that's yeah, that's a

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Speaker 1: key distinction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And how do we even go about knowing how

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Speaker 2: we have to change our personality? Because I think when

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Speaker 2: you really believe, it's almost like living in a city.

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Speaker 2: So it's like, let's say I was talking to someone

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Speaker 2: yesterday and they said, I have lived in this town

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Speaker 2: for thirty one years, and I'm about to move to

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Speaker 2: a bigger city, and I'm scared and nervous. That's almost

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Speaker 2: what it feels like when you're changing your personality, because

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Speaker 2: you're like, I have lived in this body and this

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Speaker 2: mind and this personality for thirty one years. I don't

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Speaker 2: even know which other city I want to live in.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know which other personality I need or want.

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Speaker 2: How do you even unearth and uncover how you may

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Speaker 2: want to change your personality and what the right trait is.

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Speaker 1: So there's kind of the dorky scientific way, and then

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Speaker 1: there's sort of less scientific, like wu wu ways that

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Speaker 1: might even work better. So the scientific way is there's

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Speaker 1: a big five personality test. It'll it'll measure where you

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Speaker 1: fall along the five personality traits, so it'll tell you

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Speaker 1: kind of, compared to everyone else on earth, you are

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Speaker 1: much less extroverted than other people. So you know, you're

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Speaker 1: very low on extraversion, and so you might look at

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Speaker 1: that score and think to yourself, I'd like to change that.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to be more outgoing, I'd like to make

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Speaker 1: new friends. Whatever it is to do with extraversion that

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Speaker 1: you want, and so then you can go about pursuing

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Speaker 1: that goal. What I think you could also do is

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Speaker 1: just like think about your values and think about what

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Speaker 1: it is you want out of life. Like a lot

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Speaker 1: of people say they don't want to become more extroverted,

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Speaker 1: and I kind of think that's fine if that's not

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Speaker 1: a value that you have. But I've also talked to

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who are like, look, I want

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Speaker 1: to get, you know, a job as a manager at work.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to, you know, be rank and file forever.

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Speaker 1: I want to grow in my career and that requires

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Speaker 1: a certain amount of extraversion. Like to lead people, to

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Speaker 1: speak persuasively, even just to manage people requires you to

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Speaker 1: have extraversion skills. So if you think about that as

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Speaker 1: a value for yourself, you could start to consider whether

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Speaker 1: extraversion might be a trait that you want to work on.

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Speaker 1: Another way that I did this personally is that I

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Speaker 1: kind of looked at the people in my life that

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Speaker 1: I was jealous of. So I have a friend who's

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Speaker 1: very good at making friends, Like she just is a

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Speaker 1: huge people person and people love her and are drawn

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Speaker 1: to her, and she could move to a new city

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Speaker 1: and make ten friends and be having dinner with them

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Speaker 1: that night, and I was really jealous of that. I

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Speaker 1: was like, I kind of want that skill. Like I

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Speaker 1: was actually like texting her, like how do you do that?

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Speaker 1: And so you could just look at your life at

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Speaker 1: you know, the people who do things that you're kind

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Speaker 1: of like, oh that's cool, Like I kind of want

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Speaker 1: to do that, cause that'll tell you the personality traits

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Speaker 1: that matter to you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've always talked about how you can transform envy

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Speaker 2: into study, and that's kind of how I've been my

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Speaker 2: whole life. Anytime I've looked at someone and admired them

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Speaker 2: or liked something that they have, whether it's a trait

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Speaker 2: of skill and ability, I'm like, how did you get that?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: And it's that idea, but it's interesting. I've always been

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Speaker 2: wired that way, so that's always been my natural kind

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Speaker 2: of when you were seeing your thoughts that you naturally had,

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Speaker 2: that's kind of how it naturally always been. If I

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Speaker 2: find something impressive, I want to know how to do

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Speaker 2: it and how to build it and how to grow it,

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Speaker 2: as opposed to feeling like they're special and I can't

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Speaker 2: have that. If that makes sense, What about those of

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Speaker 2: us who just feel what people should like me for

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Speaker 2: the way I am. If I can't make friends as

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Speaker 2: being authentically me and the word authentic now has become

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Speaker 2: this big buzzword and trend, So how does that fit

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Speaker 2: into that idea of Well, people should love to hang

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Speaker 2: out with you just the way you are. You shouldn't

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Speaker 2: have to be extrovert like your friend. Are you being

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Speaker 2: inauthentic by changing your personality?

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Speaker 1: I mean the truth is is that no one has

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Speaker 1: ever authentically themselves one hundred percent, right. That could be

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Speaker 1: kind of off putting if you just said everything that

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Speaker 1: came to you your mind without any kind of filter

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Speaker 1: or like I think there was like a movie once

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Speaker 1: where it's like someone just said whatever they were thinking,

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Speaker 1: and it like people were very offended because you know,

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Speaker 1: it's we actually do have a filter between ourselves and

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Speaker 1: other people because we know that people kind of don't

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Speaker 1: want that like completely raw, like spur of the mind

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Speaker 1: thoughts that come to us. So that's one thing is

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Speaker 1: that one you're probably already filtering yourself at least a

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Speaker 1: little bit. Maybe you're doing it in a in a

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Speaker 1: kind way where like, you know, if a friend is

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Speaker 1: in a bad relationship, you don't necessarily want to be like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: keep dating that guy, you know, but you might say like, hey,

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Speaker 1: like have you thought about like what you're getting out

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Speaker 1: of this? You know, but you you might not just

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Speaker 1: launch into a rant about how that person sucks, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: you find ways of saying things that appeal to people.

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Speaker 1: The other thing is that like, how do you know

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Speaker 1: what your authentic self is? Like, yeah, well that's what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying, is like I don't know that, like we

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Speaker 1: have necessarily a genuine, consistent, authentic self that we need

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Speaker 1: to like preserve at all costs. I think that a

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Speaker 1: lot of times our emotions are kind of fleeting, and

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Speaker 1: if you say something one day, you might not say

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Speaker 1: it again the same way the next day. Or if

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Speaker 1: you feel something about about something one day, you might

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Speaker 1: not feel that same way the next week, So you

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Speaker 1: know which one of those is authentic? You know, are

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Speaker 1: you exactly the same as you were in college? If not,

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Speaker 1: are you are you faking it?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean? It's we all kind of

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Speaker 1: change and shift over time and depending on the situation.

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Speaker 1: I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with that. I

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Speaker 1: think that's called the growth.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's weird how we're fascinated by this addiction to

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Speaker 2: authenticity right now. Yeah, when I agree with you, I

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Speaker 2: think authenticity is you showing up in different ways at

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Speaker 2: different times with different people because you can't possibly be

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Speaker 2: the same person with everyone, and you're not going to

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Speaker 2: expose your self to everyone at all times. It's just

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Speaker 2: not a natural thing to do. But it's weird that

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Speaker 2: we have this guise of authenticity that seems to be

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Speaker 2: clouding our ability to grow when actually probably the most

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Speaker 2: authentic thing we can do as humans is to grow, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and to choose to change.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't know, I just think that that's

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Speaker 1: what survival is, right, Yeah. No, no one is going

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Speaker 1: to call you out for I don't know, trying new

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Speaker 1: things or trying new skills or trying new new traits.

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Speaker 1: I think that that can also be a part of authenticity.

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Speaker 1: Anything that you do for the first time is going

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Speaker 1: to feel a little inauthentic.

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Speaker 2: That's the interesting part is that we had vingiangon recently

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Speaker 2: who's a communication expert and public speaking expert, and he

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Speaker 2: was saying that we change how we dress, and we

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Speaker 2: don't think that's an authentic but then we don't change

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Speaker 2: the way we speak. He was saying that our communication

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Speaker 2: style remains exactly the same our whole life. So if

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Speaker 2: we're monotonous and boring and we just think that's who

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Speaker 2: we are, but the reality is that we are changing

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Speaker 2: other parts of ourselves. And you're right, when you try

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Speaker 2: a new hairstyle, it feels a little uncomfortable for the

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Speaker 2: first week. When you try a new pair of shoes

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Speaker 2: or a new fit of clothing, it feels a bit uncomfortable,

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Speaker 2: and that's not inauthentic. It's you trying to change your

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Speaker 2: style or what fits you. And we can do the

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Speaker 2: same with our personality. What's the difference between changing our

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Speaker 2: habits and changing our personality traits? How do they connect

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Speaker 2: to do?

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Speaker 1: This is a huge debate within psychology. I will try

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Speaker 1: to give the uh not super nerdy version of it.

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Speaker 1: So some psychologists think that habits basically become personality traits

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Speaker 1: after a period of time. So if it's your habit

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Speaker 1: to do something and you do it consistently for years, okay,

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Speaker 1: now this is your personality. Some psychologists think that there's

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Speaker 1: also an element of like thought behind that, where if

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Speaker 1: you do something and you really like to do it,

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Speaker 1: you kind of start to incorporate it into your personality.

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Speaker 1: You start to kind of make it part of your identity.

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Speaker 1: This is like, you know, people who become runners and

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Speaker 1: then they like kind of identify as runners, and they're

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Speaker 1: like as a runner, you know, and they're like running marathons.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: That's sort of like more part of their personality is

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Speaker 1: like exercising a ton and being you know, really we

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Speaker 1: would say conscientious about running more so than someone who

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Speaker 1: just like kind of mindlessly takes a job every day

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Speaker 1: and they don't really think too much about it. It's

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Speaker 1: a gray area between those two poles. Like I didn't

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Speaker 1: used to be very conscientious, but I am now. And

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Speaker 1: I can't tell you exactly when the switch happened from

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Speaker 1: me just making a ton of to do lists and

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Speaker 1: like leaving a relief for everything, and like being like

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Speaker 1: remember this, remember this to like now me just doing

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Speaker 1: it naturally.

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Speaker 2: To me, it makes sense that our habit somewhat lean

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Speaker 2: into our personality because a repetitive action or a consistent

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Speaker 2: action feels like it becomes normality, and then once it

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Speaker 2: becomes normality. But I, but I appreciate the distinction between

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Speaker 2: For example, a habit I have is to brush my

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Speaker 2: teeth twice a day, but I don't identify five Yeah,

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Speaker 2: as a brusher of teeth, right, It's something I do,

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Speaker 2: but it's not an identity. So I noticed that nuance.

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Speaker 2: Whereas I played pickaball three to four times a week,

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Speaker 2: and I consider myself to be a piccolar. Right, that

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Speaker 2: idea is there's an identity associated with that. And I

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Speaker 2: guess that's what you're saying, is the difference between personality

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Speaker 2: and habit. Before we dive into the next moment, let's

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Speaker 2: hear from our sponsors. Thanks for taking a moment for that.

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Speaker 2: Now back to the discussion.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you incorporated into yourself a little bit more. I

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Speaker 1: have one example, which is public speaking is part of

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Speaker 1: my job. Like speaking at events, moderating events, doing stuff

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Speaker 1: like this. And when I first started many years ago,

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Speaker 1: I was not good at it. I was kind of

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Speaker 1: painfully just like really shy. It made me really uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: to do things like this, and I kind of just

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Speaker 1: brute forced kind of tried to get better at it,

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Speaker 1: and I worked super hard, and it did become a

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Speaker 1: habit I did. I had to do a ton of

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Speaker 1: these events, and like we were always having them, especially

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Speaker 1: before COVID, and I kind of felt like eventually, I

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Speaker 1: now really don't think about it, like I kind of

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Speaker 1: like if an event is coming up and I have

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Speaker 1: to moderate something, I'm like, Okay, what time do I

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Speaker 1: need to be there. It's not even a process of

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Speaker 1: like psyching myself up or oh gosh, I'm so nervous.

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Speaker 1: Even my physiological responses are not the same, Like I

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Speaker 1: don't get like sweaty palms and kind of jittery and

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. So I don't know, like, is being

436
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,879
Speaker 1: extroverted in that way. I guess it's part of my

437
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,359
Speaker 1: personality now because I kind of reflexively do it, But

438
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 1: in that intervening time, it was definitely like I'm not extroverted.

439
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 1: I'm trying really hard to be, and I'm building this

440
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 1: habit so that I can be.

441
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, my experience is exactly the same my I was

442
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,440
Speaker 2: so shy growing up as a kid. My parents forced

443
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 2: me to go to public speaking in drama school from

444
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 2: age eleven to eighteen, and I took exams in public speaking.

445
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,920
Speaker 2: I was trained nine hours a week for seven years,

446
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:01,040
Speaker 2: eight years in my life, and it transfered my ability

447
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 2: to stand up in front of a room. I've now

448
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 2: been public speaking since I was eleven and thirty seven now,

449
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 2: so it's what twenty six years of experience. So you

450
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:11,120
Speaker 2: could ask me to give a talk on any subject

451
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 2: in three minutes and I'd feel comfortable. Granted the subject

452
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 2: would have to be something I'm aware of, not something

453
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,920
Speaker 2: out of my expertise, but it would feel comfortable and

454
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 2: easy and I'd feel calm. If you asked me to

455
00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,399
Speaker 2: do that when I was eleven, that would not be

456
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 2: the case. And if you asked me to do that

457
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 2: at twenty one, I would have had the skills, but

458
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 2: I wouldn't have had the passion to talk about things,

459
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 2: and so I had to find what I was passionate about.

460
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 2: But I fully believe that people aren't just born with

461
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,680
Speaker 2: skills that we notice them. And I think we've created

462
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,680
Speaker 2: this myth in society where people are just magical or

463
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 2: special or gifted, and that actually does two things. The

464
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 2: first is it limits us from becoming those people or

465
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 2: achieving those things. And the second thing is it actually

466
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 2: discres credits those people for the amount of work they're

467
00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 2: put in. So when you look at the greatest athletes

468
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 2: in the world. I had the fortune of interviewing Kobe

469
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: Bryant a few months before he passed. He was in

470
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 2: the gym for twice as long as everyone else. That's

471
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 2: what he said in his words, So you could argue

472
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,159
Speaker 2: he was gifted and special in all those things. And

473
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 2: I'm not saying he wasn't, but he would say it

474
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,399
Speaker 2: was because he was in the gym for twice as

475
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 2: long as everyone else. He was getting a four hour

476
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,680
Speaker 2: shift in the gym before anyone woke up, and that

477
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,159
Speaker 2: was the difference maker in his mind. When you look

478
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,400
Speaker 2: at Cristiano Ronaldo, who's the biggest soccer player in the world,

479
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 2: it's the same. Anyone who's been in his vicinity will say, well,

480
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 2: he has a chef that's dialed in for his health,

481
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 2: and he has the best recovery program, and he has

482
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,199
Speaker 2: the best fitness and wellness expert. When you look at

483
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 2: it through his head, it's all work, Whereas when you

484
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 2: look at it from the outside, you think it's magic

485
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 2: and gifted. Right, And so I think we discredit that

486
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 2: person's work ethic by saying it's magic and special, and

487
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 2: we actually steal the opportunity from ourselves from saying I

488
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,399
Speaker 2: can't do that because I wasn't born with that. And

489
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,359
Speaker 2: so I hope everyone who's listening is having that recognition

490
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 2: to say you can do it. And anyone that you

491
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 2: admire is just put in the work, whether it's public

492
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 2: speaking like yourself, or whether it's playing four hours of

493
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 2: basketball more than the average person.

494
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's a great example. And that is the

495
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 1: same with personality change. Anyone who has a skill or

496
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 1: a trait that you admire has probably put a lot

497
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 1: of effort into that.

498
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,240
Speaker 2: How long does it take then to change a personality trait?

499
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 1: That's a good question, and it really depends on the trait.

500
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 1: So I found with extraversion, extraversion was one of the

501
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: traits that I wanted to increase. I kind of felt

502
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: socially isolated and like I didn't just really know a

503
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 1: lot of people in my community. And also just especially

504
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: after COVID, I was like I kind of just don't

505
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: talk to anyone, Like I'm in my house all the time,

506
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 1: and I even though it was safe to do so.

507
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: So for that one I noticed the change is really

508
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: like I found that I went from a preference to

509
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 1: just stay at home on my couch and watch Netflix

510
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 1: to a preference to get out there and talk to people,

511
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: meet up with people, even if it's just in a

512
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 1: surface level way. I found that change happened after like

513
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 1: a couple months, like maybe a month or two. It

514
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 1: was something more performative, like I did improv classes as well.

515
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: That took several months for me to truly get comfortable,

516
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,400
Speaker 1: just because I'm not, as I said, a natural performer,

517
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 1: and that gave me a lot of anxiety, so that

518
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: one took a little bit longer. With something like neuroticism,

519
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 1: which is depression and anxiety, it's something that can be

520
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 1: really rooted in yourself, Like it's not purely behavioral, right,

521
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: Like you can notice that someone is pretty calm seeming

522
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 1: that they could be really anxious on the inside. That

523
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: can take a rather long time to change and to shift.

524
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: Are it's supposed toble Yes, So those studies that we

525
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 1: have show like it's like a few months of therapy

526
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: can really create a significant change in neuroticism. What I

527
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: did was like a meditation class that I think it

528
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: lasted eight weeks or twelve weeks or something like that.

529
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: It was MBSR and it's just pure mindfulness meditation for dummies,

530
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,479
Speaker 1: nothing special to it, and that did work to decrease

531
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: MI neuroticism after I think like three months.

532
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 2: How what did it do?

533
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 1: I am still totally not sure what meditation specifically does

534
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 1: in the mind. I will tell you what I think

535
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 1: it did for me. So this meditation class was a

536
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: combination of sitting silently for forty five minutes every day

537
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 1: or some sort of other mindful activity like yoga or walking,

538
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: and once a week our teacher would give like a

539
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 1: presentation about a topic in Buddhism that is probably very

540
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 1: very obvious to all of your listeners, Like it's something

541
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 1: that probably they have heard of or have come across

542
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: or are aware of.

543
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 2: Right. It was.

544
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 1: It was not super esoteric or like late breaking like

545
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: Buddhist thoughts it was very kind of simple, and I

546
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: sort of was like the whole time, I was like,

547
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 1: is this really doing anything? Like I kind of already

548
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: know about all this Buddhist stuff. I've come across it

549
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,960
Speaker 1: in my research, and this meditation is just really boring,

550
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: you know, is what is this working? And it did work.

551
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 1: My especially my depression score went down considerably throughout the

552
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: course of this class.

553
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 2: Is that a self score or is it a So

554
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 2: all of these.

555
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: Are self scores. There's really not a way to measure

556
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: personality outside of self assessment. I would recommend for if

557
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 1: people really want to get super accurate scores, just do

558
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: the tests a lot frequently, because then you'll kind of

559
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: get a sense of like where you're falling and it

560
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 1: won't be like a random fluke result. But they're all

561
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: self scores. But mine went down from the ninety fourth

562
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: percentile to the thirty ninth percentile, which is a lot.

563
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 1: My anxiety went down, My depression just went significantly low

564
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: to I think like I was considered like not depressed.

565
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: And I think it was from these like Buddhist lessons

566
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: that they taught us that somehow, okay, So there's one

567
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: you're probably familiar with this. Have you heard of the

568
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: double arrow? So the double arrow for people who don't know,

569
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 1: is this idea that something bad happens to you. Let's

570
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: say you don't get as much work done as you

571
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: wanted to one day, and then you sit there and

572
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 1: berate yourself, why didn't I get as much work done

573
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 1: today as I wanted. Now it's going to screw up

574
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: tomorrow and I'm not going to get it done on time,

575
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: and my boss is going to be mad. That second

576
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: part is a second arrow that you're basically shooting yourself

577
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: with after the initial misfortune has happened. I knew this

578
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: going into the meditation program, but there was something about

579
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: someone kind of explaining it to me as like a

580
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: universal human phenomenon and something that you actually have control over,

581
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: Like you don't have to shoot yourself with this double arrow,

582
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 1: the second arrow. You don't get any extra points in

583
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: life from having two arrow injuries. You can just acknowledge

584
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: that something bad happened and think about, Okay, what am

585
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: I going to do? How am I going to move

586
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 1: forward in a calm way without a lot of self blame.

587
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,040
Speaker 1: I think that really made the difference for me. A

588
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: part of my neuroticism came from self blame, and I

589
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: think a lot of other peoples does too, And that

590
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,719
Speaker 1: class was really good if you're like a self blamer.

591
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: It was very good at increasing self compassion.

592
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 2: Having meditated for a long time now, I feel like

593
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 2: it's really beautiful hearing about someone having an experience that

594
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 2: in eight weeks was able to reduce depression that significantly,

595
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 2: and even hearing about your experience is really special because

596
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 2: I think one of the things I find most interesting

597
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 2: about the human mind is we think because we've heard

598
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: something often that we understand it and that we've realized it,

599
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 2: and therefore we're always looking for something new, not realizing

600
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 2: that actually it's that age old repetition of an idea

601
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: that then you get to live and breathe and apply

602
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden it transforms your life.

603
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 2: And it isn't always about finding a new And I

604
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 2: think this idea of always want to watch a new

605
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 2: show or a new episode makes sense because that work

606
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 2: isn't healing or transformative. But these ideas that are timeless,

607
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 2: that have been around for thousands of years, there's a

608
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 2: reason why when they finally hit they have this effect

609
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,479
Speaker 2: that you know, you're smiling in front of me right

610
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: now and nodding. It's it's that feeling that you get

611
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 2: that you only get from something that heals you and

612
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: transforms you. Yeah, that you've heard it a million times,

613
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 2: but then when the penny drops, it stays with you forever.

614
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: So there's a couple things about it. It was a

615
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: group class. It was zoom because of the pandemic. People

616
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 1: were kind of all sharing their struggles and we were

617
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: all kind of going through these realizations together too, and

618
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: so just seeing how it applied to different situations, even

619
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: like very simple. Like one thing my meditation teacher said

620
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: was she would always say, is things happen that we

621
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: don't like? And like, how simple is that? Obviously things

622
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: happen that we don't like. Every day something happens that

623
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 1: we don't like. But for me, I was like, oh, oh,

624
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: every single person here, sitting here has things happened to

625
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: them that they don't like. It's part of life. It's

626
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: not always your faults. Even if it is your faults

627
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: sitting there and going ah, why am I always causing

628
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: things to happen to me that I don't like? Is

629
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: not going to fix the thing. Yeah, and for me

630
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: that was really I don't know, that was therapeutic in

631
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: a way, as silly as it seems.

632
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 2: No, it's I don't think it's silly at all. And

633
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 2: I remember looking into and I'm sure you're well aware

634
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 2: of this, but the frequency illusion and that idea has

635
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 2: totally given me so much confidence on how what we're

636
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 2: both talking about is so real and so true. So

637
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 2: for those who don't know, the frequency illusion is when

638
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: you're thinking about buying a red car, and now every

639
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 2: car that you see on the road is red, and

640
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 2: you think, wow, everyone's just buying red cars. It must

641
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 2: be in fashion, it must be in vogue, like everyone's

642
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 2: buying red. The reality is there are not more red cars.

643
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 2: It's just that now that you're noticing red cars, so

644
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 2: what you notice appears more often. So when you notice

645
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 2: things happen that I don't like, now all you're noticing

646
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 2: is the things that happen that you don't like. And

647
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 2: I always say to people that when I look at

648
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 2: my life, and if you've reflected on your life, you

649
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 2: can always tell two stories based on what you notice.

650
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 2: So I could either say today I love what I do.

651
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful to do it. I'm really passionate about it.

652
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 2: I wake up and I'm really excited about it, and

653
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: I get to work with great people. Or I could

654
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 2: say the more I've done what I've loved, I've attracted

655
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 2: more negativity. I've had people steal money from me, I

656
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 2: had people want to take advantage of me, I've been exploited,

657
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 2: and whatever else it is. Now both of those are true,

658
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 2: and I don't want to encourage positive thinking, which is

659
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 2: no only good things happen to me, because that's not true.

660
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: Things happen that I don't like, But the reality is

661
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 2: I don't have to notice them as much. And ultimately

662
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 2: all that's multiplying is what I'm noticing. And that's exactly

663
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 2: what you're saying in this idea that and that's what

664
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 2: I think mindfulness does, especially NBSR, is this idea of

665
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 2: the ability to notice what am I paying attention to?

666
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 2: And is it helping me? And then all of a

667
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: sudden you go, wait a minute, when I focus on

668
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 2: the double arrow, it doesn't help me, it doesn't serve me,

669
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 2: it doesn't get me anywhere. I just criticized myself and

670
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 2: hurt and hate myself even more, and now I've dug

671
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 2: an even deeper hole that's really hard to get out

672
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 2: of tomorrow to get any work done exactly.

673
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: And another common suggestion for reducing neuroticism is to have

674
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: a gratitude journal. And of course, like when I started this,

675
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: I was like, this is stupid. Why would anyone journaling

676
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: about gratit? Your Russians are not big on kind of

677
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: positive little journaling practices like that, And kind of the

678
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: more I did it, the more I realized that it

679
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: was helping you notice the positive story. So like even

680
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: on a dumb day where people on Twitter would yell

681
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: at me, and my boss is mad at me, and

682
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: my husband and I got in a fight or whatever,

683
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: you know, I could always find a few things that

684
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: went relatively well, you know, just even small things or

685
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: just things that I was happy that I had, you

686
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: know that I have that other people don't have, And

687
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: you know, it really does change your mindset a little bit,

688
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 1: It makes it It just breaks you out of that

689
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: cycle of like everything is bad and my life is bad.

690
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the reason we have to do is because

691
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 2: we're all so wired. When have you ever got to

692
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 2: a meeting smoothly and said yeah, it was really smooth

693
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 2: getting here today. Most of the time, if it was

694
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 2: a bad journey to get to work that day, you

695
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 2: would talk about it with everyone the whole day. You

696
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 2: keep repeating it, so you would say it ten times

697
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 2: and you woul't even think about it. Every meeting you'd go, oh,

698
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 2: my god, I had the worst journey here to work today.

699
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 2: This guy coming off there was an accident. You know,

700
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 2: you saw the news and you just keep telling that story,

701
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 2: whereas you'd never say, yeah, I was really smooth today.

702
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 2: It was amazing. I'm just so thankful that every light

703
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 2: was green, and you know, you just don't say that,

704
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 2: and so we have to practice it. The gratitude journal,

705
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,879
Speaker 2: I think has become such a meme now because it's

706
00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 2: like whatever, it's kind of been so watered down. The

707
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: point of it is the repetition of noticing a good

708
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 2: story in your day because you're so wired to notice

709
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 2: the bad stories every day. I wanted to ask you,

710
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 2: what are the gender effects on personality?

711
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: Women tend to be more conscientious in some ways, more agreeable,

712
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: and also much more neurotic. Neuroticism is like highly associated

713
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: with being female, and then men Men tend to be

714
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 1: much less agreeable, less conscientious in certain ways, and then

715
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 1: less neuroticism. Men tend to have more of a like this,

716
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 1: like it's called a dark triad or basically like kind

717
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: of an antagonistic personality trait that women, because of socialization

718
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: or whatever, tend not to display as much.

719
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: And that's what makes heterosexual relationships so hard because there's

720
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 2: oh yeah, there's a complete alterative all of.

721
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 1: The like my husband never mops the floor or whatever.

722
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: That's personality based.

723
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, But the thing is it's shed cross men, as in,

724
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 2: it's not like it's just my guy.

725
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: You occasionally will find someone you know. Obviously these are

726
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: all averages, so you'll find someone who's like, sure below

727
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: the average or above, but yeah, it tends to be shared.

728
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's something that all men need to work on.

729
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,240
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, exactly.

730
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 2: And that's the hard part with that, right, because romantic

731
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 2: relationships is probably where we see this the most, where

732
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 2: we just say to a partner, but that's not who

733
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 2: I am. I don't want to be that. And also

734
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 2: because you feel the pressure that your partner wants you

735
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 2: to be that way, what do you do when your

736
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 2: partner wants you to be that way, but you don't

737
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 2: want to be that way for them.

738
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: You know, there could be another reason to be that

739
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: way though, like even if it would just make your

740
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: relationship a little bit balmy, or you know, maybe you

741
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: understand each other better, maybe you communicate better because you

742
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: agree to say things a certain way. My husband has

743
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: this with like various things. He likes things like he

744
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: tends to think that eating the very last bit of

745
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: something is rude, and I think that leaving a big

746
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: bag with the tiny bit of something in it is rude.

747
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: But so now though I see when I see a

748
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: big bag with a little bit piece of something, I'm like, oh,

749
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: he's trying to be kind to me, right, Like I'm

750
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 1: seeing it through his eyes of like he's being empathetic.

751
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: And when I like gobble down the last of the

752
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 1: cheese and throw the package away, he tries to see

753
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: it as like I'm being efficient and showing him love

754
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: by not leaving crab in the fridge.

755
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And that again goes back to the underlying need,

756
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 2: because that's an underlying expression of the same thing. Yeah.

757
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: Could you name for us the five personality traits and

758
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 2: then the personalities that are associated with those.

759
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 1: So there's five traits that make up personality. You can

760
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: remember them with the acronym ocean, which is nice because

761
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: we're in California. So it's openness to experiences, which is

762
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: this is the hardest one, so stay with me. But

763
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 1: it's kind of like people who are open minded, kind

764
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,719
Speaker 1: of down for whatever, kind of just you suggest a

765
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: new restaurant to them and they're like, okay, yeah, let's

766
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 1: check it out. See for conscientiousness, these are the go getters.

767
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 1: They wake up early, they run every day, they know

768
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: where all their stuff is, They work really diligently at everything,

769
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: They pursue their goals. These are type A individuals. E

770
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: For extroversion. We all have some sense of what this is.

771
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: It's not just talking a lot. It's also like how

772
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: much you like being around people and how kind of

773
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: active you are. You know, are you kind of more

774
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: the sit on the couch person or are you out

775
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: and about doing stuff with other people? Is extroversion even

776
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: if you're not talking. Agreeableness is a and it gets

777
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 1: a bad rap because people think it means just agreeing

778
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 1: with everything, but it's really how warm and empathetic you

779
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,839
Speaker 1: are in your relationships. So you know, are you someone

780
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: who is filled with a lot of antagonism? Do you

781
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: start a lot of conflict with the people in your life?

782
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 1: Or are you someone who is able to take the

783
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 1: perspective of others puts other needs before your own. So,

784
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: people high in agreeableness tend to have like really deep

785
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: and meaningful friendships and relationships, but.

786
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 2: It could lead to people pleasing. On the negative end, it.

787
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: Can, and I've heard from people who are like, I

788
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: want to be less agreeable because I want to be

789
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: less of a people pleaser. And there are ways to

790
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 1: set boundaries in relationships that can still be agreeable and

791
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: that don't lead to people pleasing. And then N is neuroticism.

792
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: It's kind of it's basically the two components of it

793
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: are depression and anxiety. So and it's it's kind of

794
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:36,439
Speaker 1: all about how negative your inner weather is, Like how

795
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: gloomy is it in there?

796
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 2: You know?

797
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: Is it all like, you know, I had the worst

798
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: commute into work today because a guy cut me off

799
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:44,919
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah, you know, or are you able

800
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: to kind of take a minute in there and smile

801
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,439
Speaker 1: at something, laugh with someone, even just appreciate it being

802
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 1: a normal day. That would be someone who's more emotionally stable,

803
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: which is the opposite of neuroticism.

804
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 2: Got it. An introversion fits into extraversion. It's the opture scale, yes, yeah,

805
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 2: to openness closed, yes, exactly. So they're all gnciousness. Yeah,

806
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 2: I'm being unconscious.

807
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: Yes, So they're all a spectrum. So no one is

808
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: one hundred percent one or the other. People are like,

809
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: I'm a total introvert. It's you're probably like twenty three

810
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: percent of the way.

811
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now we all mixed? Are we all of them? Right?

812
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 2: We have, we have, we have a score on the

813
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 2: spectrum of each and every one of them. But first,

814
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 2: here's a quick word from the brands that support the show.

815
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 2: All right, thank you to our sponsors. Now let's dive

816
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 2: back in.

817
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: We all have each of these traits inside of us

818
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,439
Speaker 1: to varying degrees. Generally, you want to be pretty high

819
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: on all of them. Other than neuroticism, you want to

820
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 1: be low on that one. But pretty high doesn't mean

821
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: all the way high or extreme or in every situation

822
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 1: or every day. It just means that, like, if called

823
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 1: upon to give a wedding toast, you're capable of doing that.

824
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 1: You know, you're not going to melt down. That would

825
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: be like an appropriate amount of it extroversion.

826
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so interesting to say that, because I was

827
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 2: looking at a study that was saying that if we're

828
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 2: asked to give a toast as the maid of honor

829
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 2: at a friend's wedding, we literally feel like we're being

830
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 2: chased by a tiger, right, Like that's the response in

831
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 2: the brain because we're so scared of how it could go.

832
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 2: You're saying, ideally, you don't feel that way, and that's

833
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 2: a healthy level to be. Yeah.

834
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 1: So, and then that doesn't mean that you would give

835
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 1: a toast every day, you know. It doesn't mean that,

836
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 1: like what you would prefer most in the world is

837
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 1: to give a toast. You might still need a lot

838
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: of quiet time to yourself, but it's someone who can

839
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:35,240
Speaker 1: kind of rise to those occasions.

840
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 2: So I have a friend who always says to me,

841
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 2: I'm not as ambitious as you. I'm a lot more

842
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 2: content and I'm stable is the words he uses. But

843
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 2: then when we get into it, he'll be honest and

844
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 2: say I think I'm lazy, I'm not organized, and disguise

845
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 2: my lack of ambition as contentment, but really I'm not happy,

846
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,240
Speaker 2: like I'm anxious, some stress them not in a good place.

847
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 2: Is that changeable? Yeah.

848
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,840
Speaker 1: So for my book, I interviewed several people exactly like that.

849
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,879
Speaker 1: So they kind of thought they were just kind of, oh,

850
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 1: whatever happens happens, kind of like, you know, I'm content,

851
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: I'm not very ambitious. But then one of the women, Julia,

852
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 1: she really wanted to start her own business. She wanted

853
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 1: to have her own copywriting business. But she worked as

854
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 1: like an assistant at a hair salon, which was not

855
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 1: really what she wanted to be doing it. It was

856
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 1: a little bit menial and like just kind of she

857
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 1: felt like she had skills beyond that, and she really

858
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: just struggled to get motivated or like figure out how

859
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: she was going to start this business. She kind of

860
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 1: just like flipped overnight, like she again kind of like

861
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 1: my thing with the MBSR class, she read that like

862
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:47,879
Speaker 1: you can accomplish your goals by just working at them

863
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: for twenty minutes a day, just in some self help book.

864
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: This is not the secret to conscientiousness. But for her,

865
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: this was like, oh, like I could just do a

866
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: little bit every day toward my goals, Like I don't

867
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: have to suddenly wake up and be a different and

868
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: she did. She got super organized. She's like one of

869
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,319
Speaker 1: the most organized people I've ever talked to. She has

870
00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: like all these to do lists, she has a calendar,

871
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 1: she has Gira tracking of her client. You know, she's

872
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: like very together. And this was someone who quit her

873
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: job to start a business and then watched Game of

874
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 1: Thrones for you know, months, because she didn't have that

875
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,320
Speaker 1: skill initially. So yeah, it's completely possible.

876
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 2: So how do we do it?

877
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: So what I found seems to work for people is

878
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: that you have to have This is now like a

879
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: cliche at this point, but you really have to have

880
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 1: a why. One of the other people that I talked

881
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: to in that chapter, he came from this like very

882
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: poor rural part of Virginia and he had never like

883
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: studied really, he just wasn't into school and he had

884
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: never written a paper before, and he didn't realize that

885
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: you can study for tests and in that way you

886
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,400
Speaker 1: can improve your score. So he gets to college somehow,

887
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 1: like the you know whatever low college. He gets into

888
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: and everyone thinks he's going to fail out because he's

889
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 1: just not schools his thing, and then he takes one

890
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,760
Speaker 1: psychology class, and he's like, oh, this is so interesting.

891
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 1: I'm learning about why people do what they do, the

892
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,719
Speaker 1: science of the mind. This is applicable to me. This

893
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 1: is fascinating. And he decides he wants to become an

894
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 1: academic psychologist, like a researcher in psychology, which is so

895
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: far beyond where he is at that moment, and he does.

896
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:28,240
Speaker 1: He honestly just completely turns his life around. He gets organized,

897
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 1: He gets like a filing cabinet with all of his

898
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 1: homework and all that stuff. He finds a study buddy,

899
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: which having a partner in whatever journey you're on is

900
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 1: always going to be more effective. They stay up all

901
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 1: night reading and studying together and writing essays together and

902
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 1: like puzzling through like what does this mean? What does

903
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 1: that mean? He finds a mentor in psychology who kind

904
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: of keeps him going and gives him hope. He makes

905
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,359
Speaker 1: flashcards for every test, He sets like timelines for when

906
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 1: he's going to start studying for each psychology quiz, and

907
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: he is a He is now a tenured professor psychology.

908
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,439
Speaker 1: He got into UGA, which is a great grad school

909
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 1: for psychology. And this is someone who I think made

910
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: D's in high school, and it's really about having that

911
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 1: thing that he's like, this is what I want to

912
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 1: be doing. This is absolutely how I see it playing out,

913
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,479
Speaker 1: and nothing else in his life up until that point

914
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 1: had ignited him in that same way.

915
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 2: What are the strongest types of whys?

916
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:24,879
Speaker 1: I would say, it's something that is going to kind

917
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 1: of fuel you for the rest of your life. So

918
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:30,320
Speaker 1: people often it's like their kids. People will do anything

919
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 1: for their kids because they just kind of consume you,

920
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 1: and you're like an infinite amount of energy to pour

921
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: into them. For me, it was really I really wanted

922
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: to do journalism, and that was a big part of

923
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: what made me more conscientious because I had a series

924
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: of really boring jobs before I became a journalist, and

925
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: I was like, I can't spend my whole life being

926
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 1: this boared, Like I cannot go in day and day

927
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 1: out and not look forward to anything or learning anything,

928
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: or any kind of interesting conversation. Just to you know,

929
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: I was. I was a secretary at a mail order

930
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,800
Speaker 1: mailbox company. I was like, this is this is so tedious,

931
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 1: this is so boring. I hate mailboxes. I don't care,

932
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 1: And I was like, I can't do this for the

933
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 1: rest of my life, no shade to the people who

934
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 1: work there. So that is something. It's like you can

935
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: be kind of running away from something, you can be

936
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: running towards something. It's something that's going to just kind

937
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 1: of fuel you forever, not not for the next you

938
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: know week.

939
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:29,399
Speaker 2: Okay, so you need a why what else?

940
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 1: As I mentioned previously, having someone who's kind of on

941
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: the journey with you can be, for some reason, really empowering.

942
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 1: It's called the mutually reinforcing effect, and it essentially means

943
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: that you kind of are are learning from someone, right,

944
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: You're getting strategies from them. So he was getting these

945
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 1: like study skills from this other person, but he was

946
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: also kind of learning alongside him, like they were kind

947
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,879
Speaker 1: of It kind of creates this positive sense of peer

948
00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 1: pressure where you're like, let's do it together, let's like

949
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: run this race together. It makes you feel like less alone,

950
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 1: especially when things get really hard, like I think it

951
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 1: was for him at times.

952
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 2: Okay, and then what else?

953
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: There's a final concept called episodic future thinking. So a

954
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 1: lot of times we have trouble being conscientious because we

955
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: can't see how it will all kind of look in

956
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 1: the end. So I am not talking about the secret here,

957
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 1: but it's kind of about visualizing with very specific details,

958
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 1: either the outcome that you're trying to generate or the

959
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: outcome that you're trying to avoid. So for Julia, the

960
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 1: woman who had the business, it was, you know, I'm

961
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 1: working for myself. I set my own schedule, I have

962
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 1: all these clients. You know, I never have to see

963
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 1: this hair salon again. And it was it was very

964
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: clear to her, like how she was going to set

965
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 1: up her home office, how she was going to run

966
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 1: her day, how she was going to do this. So

967
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: she had all the like kind of visualized pieces of it,

968
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 1: and that would kind of keep her motivated when it

969
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,320
Speaker 1: inevitably got hard. For some people, it can be something negative,

970
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 1: and as long as you're not so bogged down in

971
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:03,759
Speaker 1: the negativity, that can be motivating. So the guy who

972
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: became a psychologist, his big fear was becoming an assistant

973
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: manager at Wendy's because that was like the only job

974
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: that was available in his hometown. And so he was like,

975
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 1: if I have to go back to my hometown and

976
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 1: be an assistant manager at Wendy's, like I can't. I

977
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: can't do that. I can't handle that I have to

978
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 1: do well at school because I can't have this like

979
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: Wendy's future happen to me. So that kind of thing

980
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,839
Speaker 1: can be really motivating, and that's you know, connecting things

981
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: to a bigger vision. Like that, A lot of the

982
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: stuff that you're going to be doing for conscientiousness is

983
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: going to be kind of tedious, like you know, scheduling

984
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 1: guests for your podcasts, I bet is like not the

985
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 1: most fun process, like sending these emails and like finding

986
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 1: a time, but it's like necessary for the larger vision.

987
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:49,919
Speaker 1: So if you keep your focus on that larger vision,

988
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,720
Speaker 1: it will motivate you through those like difficult times.

989
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's such a big and poem part

990
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,360
Speaker 2: because I often think when people think of their purpose

991
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 2: or they're calling or a better life life, it's without

992
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 2: any difficult, tedious tasks. Yes, and that's just not reality.

993
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 2: I talk to friends all the time, and I keep

994
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 2: reminding them that you're always doing things you don't want

995
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 2: to do to do more of the things you want

996
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 2: to do, and that's how life works. There's very few

997
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,360
Speaker 2: people on planet Earth, if any, that only wake up

998
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 2: and do everything they want to do, and anyone who

999
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 2: says that it's probably just paraphrasing for well, it all

1000
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 2: is things I love because it's feeding and serving a

1001
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 2: bigger vision. And I also like what you were saying

1002
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,399
Speaker 2: because I think for me it was like that when

1003
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 2: I was in a stable consulting job before I do

1004
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 2: what I do now. The only thing that got me

1005
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 2: out of there was I didn't want to be like

1006
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 2: the people who are twenty years senior to me in

1007
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 2: those roles. Again, no offense to anyone who works there.

1008
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 2: They're happy there, that's great. I just couldn't see myself

1009
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 2: being someone there when I was forty five or fifty

1010
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,440
Speaker 2: or whatever it was. And at the same time, I

1011
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 2: couldn't imagine getting to the end of my life and

1012
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 2: thinking I didn't try. And that visual for me was

1013
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,359
Speaker 2: really really powerful and even probably the one I use

1014
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 2: most today, where I'm like at the end of my life,

1015
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:19,240
Speaker 2: if I'm lying there and I'm hopefully conscious enough to reflect,

1016
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 2: I'm never ever ever going to be sad that I

1017
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 2: tried something and people thought I was bad at it,

1018
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 2: or there was terrible criticism or people laugh at me,

1019
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 2: because at that point, none of that will matter, because

1020
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,920
Speaker 2: I'll be forgotten in a matter of moments, and the

1021
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:39,879
Speaker 2: most important thing will be what I'll remember about my life,

1022
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,320
Speaker 2: which is I tried, I gave it a shot, I explored,

1023
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 2: I experimented, and I'll be proud of myself for doing that.

1024
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,120
Speaker 2: And I think that visual is such a powerful way

1025
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:52,879
Speaker 2: of whether it's like you said, five years, ten years,

1026
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,359
Speaker 2: twenty years, or whether it's all the way to the end.

1027
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,399
Speaker 2: It's such a powerful motivator that really puts things into

1028
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 2: context that you caught right now exactly.

1029
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I mean even you know, people who are

1030
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 1: professionals at being gritty struggle with this. Is one example.

1031
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,359
Speaker 1: One of the people I interviewed was Angela Duckworth, who

1032
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 1: literally wrote grit So, the book about how to stick

1033
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 1: with your goals. She has trouble sticking with her goals,

1034
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: so she doesn't like making the PowerPoint slides for her

1035
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 1: classes that she told me like, so she this is

1036
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 1: a tedious thing for her. It's not fun. It's like

1037
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: fixing the font and like making it readable and all

1038
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 1: that stuff is. She doesn't enjoy it, but she does

1039
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:32,359
Speaker 1: it because it's so important to her to teach people

1040
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 1: about psychology and to be, you know, a good professor.

1041
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 1: And to connect with her students that she's like powers

1042
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 1: through these like PowerPoint sessions. So I think that was

1043
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,440
Speaker 1: like a really good example because I'm like, if anyone

1044
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 1: knows how to be gritty, it's it's her, you know,

1045
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: but even she struggles with it.

1046
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, if someone wants to be more extraverted, what do

1047
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 2: they do every day? What do they need to change?

1048
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 1: All you have to do is talk to people. And

1049
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,879
Speaker 1: it can take yes, it can take whatever form you want.

1050
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 1: But my recommendation for people who are introverts, who are

1051
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 1: kind of just starting out, maybe you just moved somewhere

1052
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 1: new and you want to meet new people, sign up

1053
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 1: for an activity that happens regularly that you don't have

1054
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 1: to organize, because I think where people get stuck is

1055
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 1: in the endless text chain of doom of like how

1056
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 1: about Tuesday? How about Wednesday? How about drinks? How about here?

1057
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 1: How about there? Like it's really hard to make things

1058
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:27,879
Speaker 1: happen in our society because everyone's so overscheduled, everyone's busy.

1059
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 1: Everyone kind of has this inclination toward introversion. So just

1060
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 1: sign up for something like pickleball or like whatever your

1061
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 1: thing is, whatever you can tolerate that's like a group

1062
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 1: activity that's going to happen with or without you, because

1063
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 1: that's to me, like seeing the same people regularly over

1064
00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 1: time is how you build connections and how you build

1065
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: friendships and not through like just being really good at scheduling.

1066
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost I remember for me it was I

1067
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 2: was around fifteen years old. I was doing work experience

1068
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 2: at this company that my i'd been connected to, and

1069
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 2: my job was to cold call three hundred companies and

1070
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:13,800
Speaker 2: try and sell event space for an exhibition. And I

1071
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 2: had never cold called in my life. At fifteen years old,

1072
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 2: I didn't even know what that meant. And I remember

1073
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 2: getting a quick coaching session with someone who was really

1074
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 2: warm and actually really nice. His name was Joel and

1075
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 2: just such a kind guy at the time, like he

1076
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:30,280
Speaker 2: was in his thirties probably but showing me the ropes.

1077
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 2: And I remember just calling three hundred and he told me, hey,

1078
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,400
Speaker 2: most of them won't respond, most of them will say no.

1079
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 2: And I probably only sold three out of three hundred

1080
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 2: exhibition spots. But I felt so confident to be rejected

1081
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 2: in cold call from that point because I'd picked up

1082
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:50,680
Speaker 2: the phone and talked to three hundred people and I

1083
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 2: didn't feel like a failure, which is a really bizarre,

1084
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 2: counterintuitive feeling because I failed two hundred and ninety seven times,

1085
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 2: but the three exhibitions I sold were just such big wins,

1086
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:04,320
Speaker 2: and he was just like, yeah, those are the odds,

1087
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 2: Like that's just how it works. And I feel like

1088
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:08,800
Speaker 2: that was the moment I built a sense of confidence

1089
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,480
Speaker 2: around being exposed to rejection. So it's almost like, what

1090
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 2: you're saying, is that exposure therapy of Hey, if you're

1091
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 2: not good at talking to people and you're bad at

1092
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 2: organizing yourself, pick something that's organized and just talk to

1093
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 2: one person and then next week talk to two people there,

1094
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 2: and then next week talk to three people, and that

1095
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 2: exposure therapy slowly, slowly, slowly, by the end of the

1096
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 2: eight weeks, you're like, oh, wow, I'm comfortable talking to

1097
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 2: people at pickleball now.

1098
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 1: Yeah whatever, Yeah, And it's you know, not every conversation

1099
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 1: is going to go perfectly, like, not every person you

1100
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 1: meet is. I had some really awkward conversations that I

1101
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: describe in the book, like with these new people I

1102
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 1: was talking some of them. So doing a lot of

1103
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 1: meetup where you go on like group outings with people

1104
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 1: usually it's like hiking or something like that. So it's

1105
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:53,640
Speaker 1: a bunch of strangers who hike together. Again, if you

1106
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 1: go regularly, hopefully you get to know some of them.

1107
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 1: And I was doing a lot of like bumble yeah,

1108
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 1: bumble bff, and the bumblebff actually worked for me. I

1109
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,240
Speaker 1: did meet a friend on bumblebff and we're still friends.

1110
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 1: But one of them was like, oh, she was trying

1111
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 1: to tell me that women peak in high school, that

1112
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 1: she was not looking for a partner and was not

1113
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,319
Speaker 1: ever interested in dating again because we were in our

1114
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 1: thirties and women peak physically in high school. And I

1115
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 1: was like, I really don't think women peak in high school.

1116
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:30,200
Speaker 1: That's really depressive. And I was just like, how do

1117
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 1: I navigate out of this like very like specific thing

1118
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 1: that you said that I really don't agree with And

1119
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,239
Speaker 1: that makes me sad that you think that. But so yeah,

1120
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 1: you're going to meet people who were like, wow, I

1121
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:42,840
Speaker 1: don't agree with you at all about that. You know,

1122
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 1: we're just people who have like political opinions that are

1123
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 1: different from yours or whatever it might be. But you know,

1124
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: then you'll meet someone like my bumblebff Alex exactly.

1125
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 2: I think what's hard about it is that humans feel

1126
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:59,000
Speaker 2: the more certain we are about who we are, the

1127
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 2: safer we are. And so when you start becoming uncertain

1128
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 2: about who you are and open to the idea that

1129
00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 2: you could be more, it's a scary place to live

1130
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 2: because it's uncomfortable. But you don't like the idea that

1131
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 2: you met someone at thirty they're really outgoing, and now

1132
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 2: you're like, no, no, no, I'm a homebody. That's who

1133
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:24,799
Speaker 2: I am, Like, stop trying to change me? And yeah, sure,

1134
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 2: I agree with you. Don't change for that person. But

1135
00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 2: have you ever asked yourself whether you want to be

1136
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:33,319
Speaker 2: more than a homebody? Have you explored have you experienced

1137
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 2: it to even know whether that's what you want? And

1138
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 2: I think we're scared to do that because we feel

1139
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 2: sure that no, no, no, I'm a homebody and that's

1140
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 2: my identity and that's what my friends know me for,

1141
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 2: and all my friends will be like, yeah, you're a homebody,

1142
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,800
Speaker 2: and it evokes a sense of identity and purpose to

1143
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 2: some degree, even though it isn't a purpose, but it

1144
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:52,719
Speaker 2: makes me feel like people know who I am and

1145
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:54,480
Speaker 2: I know who I am. So as soon as I

1146
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 2: start changing my wife went through this. So my wife

1147
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 2: was someone who was considered by her friend's family and

1148
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 2: people around her that she was unorganized. She was spontaneous,

1149
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 2: although she's the best time. So my wife is the

1150
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:11,480
Speaker 2: best energy. She is magnetic. Everyone loves her, adores her.

1151
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 2: She didn't used to make plans. She didn't have a plan,

1152
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 2: and it was really hard to get hold of her.

1153
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 2: And that's the reputation she'd build up. And then when

1154
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:23,919
Speaker 2: she started to change that, so when she started to say, hey, sorry,

1155
00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 2: I can't actually make that. I've got work right now,

1156
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 2: or do you know what that day I've got an event,

1157
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 2: I can't make it. Before she was always available, always open.

1158
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 2: Because she didn't have a schedule, people started to make

1159
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 2: her feel bad about that, being like, oh, you've changed. Oh,

1160
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 2: but you always used to be up for this before,

1161
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:42,800
Speaker 2: Oh I realized you're too busy for me now. And

1162
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 2: it was really interesting to watch her go through that

1163
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 2: because she was doing it for all the right reasons,

1164
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 2: because she wanted to be someone who was organized, disciplined.

1165
00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 2: She was always disciplined in her workouts, but not as

1166
00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 2: much in her work and that shifted for her, and

1167
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 2: now she's extremely productive and effective and all the rest

1168
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 2: of them happy about it, but that changed. She had

1169
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 2: a lot of friends who didn't react well to that,

1170
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 2: And I think that's what people are scared of. Does

1171
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 2: that make sense? Oh yeah, I.

1172
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:11,919
Speaker 1: Completely identify with that on so many levels. So first,

1173
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 1: I think anyone who's ever given up drinking has had

1174
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 1: this exact thing play out where everyone in your life

1175
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:21,200
Speaker 1: suddenly says like come on, like you're a partyment, like

1176
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 1: what's going on with you? Like You're not gonna be

1177
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 1: fun anymore, and then you have to like create this

1178
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 1: new identity of someone who still has friends but doesn't drink.

1179
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,600
Speaker 1: The thing that was really resonant about that for me

1180
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 1: was that so for a long time, I identified as

1181
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: someone who would almost certainly be a bad mom. I

1182
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 1: was like, I am the kind of person who if

1183
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:41,120
Speaker 1: I ever have a kid, I would mess up my

1184
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 1: kid because I would be such a bad mom. I'm

1185
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:44,919
Speaker 1: not fit to have kids. I just had this story

1186
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 1: about myself that like I can't do it, even though

1187
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 1: I kind of wanted to do it, but I was

1188
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 1: like no, no, no, like it's not for me. I'm

1189
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 1: not a kid person, right, And people kind of reinforced

1190
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:58,240
Speaker 1: this in my life. So I remember when I got pregnant,

1191
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:00,840
Speaker 1: my mom told me, I can't you as a mother,

1192
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:04,800
Speaker 1: And I think for me, there was like some comfort

1193
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 1: in that, because, like, having a child is scary, and

1194
00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that everyone should or anything like that,

1195
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 1: but it is is a big leap. It's like it

1196
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:14,200
Speaker 1: feels like a big It is a huge change in

1197
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: your life, and it's a big decision to make it

1198
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 1: really like that fear. I was kind of explaining it

1199
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:21,360
Speaker 1: away by like, I don't need to make this decision

1200
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 1: because I won't be a good mom anyway. That totally

1201
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 1: has not played out, Like I'm a great mom. Like

1202
00:59:27,360 --> 00:59:29,960
Speaker 1: I love my son and I adore him. The stuff

1203
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:31,760
Speaker 1: that I thought I wouldn't like about it is the

1204
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 1: stuff I like the most. The stuff that I thought

1205
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 1: I would be best at is like I actually don't

1206
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 1: find that enjoyable. I always ask myself, like why did

1207
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 1: I tell myself for so long that I was certain

1208
00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:42,520
Speaker 1: to be a certain way or that I'm just like

1209
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 1: doomed to be a bad mom. I think we get

1210
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 1: that way about so many things in our lives, and

1211
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 1: it's counterproductive.

1212
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's hard because at one point it's it's

1213
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:56,240
Speaker 2: hard because there's a sense of honesty and self awareness

1214
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 2: at a point in time. It's when that story beg

1215
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:04,440
Speaker 2: comes finite and fatalistic that it becomes dangerous. Right there

1216
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 2: have been points in my life where me saying I'm

1217
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 2: just not the type of entrepreneur that goes on vacation

1218
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 2: right now has served me. But if I'm the entrepreneur

1219
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:18,840
Speaker 2: forever that never goes on vacation, that is going to

1220
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 2: hurt me. And so I think it's that nuanced balance

1221
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 2: between how is this self awareness but not a self

1222
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:30,280
Speaker 2: defeating story? That's a really hard balance for people to

1223
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:37,160
Speaker 2: toggle almost because it requires so much awareness, honesty not

1224
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:40,120
Speaker 2: falling into the extremes. It just requires I don't even

1225
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 2: know what the right word is. Maybe it's maturity. It

1226
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:45,200
Speaker 2: requires such a maturity to be able to hold an

1227
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 2: idea and not make it your identity, if that makes sense.

1228
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:49,280
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

1229
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 1: And the thing you have to keep in mind is

1230
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:54,920
Speaker 1: that people and situations will bring things out in you

1231
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:58,520
Speaker 1: that you didn't think were there. Like, very few people

1232
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:01,160
Speaker 1: before they've ever had a baby, you like, are naturally

1233
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 1: baby people. You know, first of all, they're only a

1234
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 1: baby for a year. So you don't even really have

1235
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 1: to worry about that much. But you know, I kind

1236
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 1: of surprise myself that, like, you know, we bring this

1237
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 1: little bundle home, a couple months go by, they start

1238
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:16,080
Speaker 1: kind of being more interactive and smiley and stuff, and

1239
01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 1: you do you start singing Baby Beluga and you know,

1240
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 1: cooing at them and cuddling. You know, you start doing

1241
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 1: all this stuff because as you take on social roles

1242
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 1: or as you kind of pursue goals that are important

1243
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 1: to you, you kind of find things within yourself that

1244
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: you didn't think were there before. Like we kind of

1245
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 1: have these like latent traits that come out when the

1246
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:38,160
Speaker 1: moment is right. So even if like you don't think

1247
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 1: of yourself as a certain kind of person, you might

1248
01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:42,920
Speaker 1: surprise yourself when that situation comes up.

1249
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I'm trying to figure out. It's like,

1250
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:48,040
Speaker 2: it's almost not like because you can't live this kind

1251
01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 2: of willing really approach to life of just or it

1252
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 2: doesn't matter, I'll figure it out when I get there,

1253
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:56,480
Speaker 2: because that could be dangerous. And then at the same time,

1254
01:01:56,520 --> 01:02:00,440
Speaker 2: you can't be the over planner and the over whelmed

1255
01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 2: person who's trying to get every meticulous detail right of it,

1256
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 2: because certain skills are only going to come up in

1257
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 2: the moment. What is that balance called? Is there even

1258
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 2: a word for it? Before we dive into the next moment,

1259
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 2: let's hear from our sponsors and back to our episode.

1260
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:20,240
Speaker 1: I think this is called social investment theory, but it's

1261
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 1: essentially this idea that over time, situations do change us,

1262
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:25,880
Speaker 1: like as there you know, there have been studies that

1263
01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 1: found that as people, you know, you get a job

1264
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 1: that they're really interested in and become really committed to,

1265
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:35,000
Speaker 1: they become more conscientious. Naturally, of course they're like learning

1266
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:36,960
Speaker 1: this skill in order to do it for their job.

1267
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:40,479
Speaker 1: After people fall in love, they've done studies that found

1268
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 1: that they become more extroverted and more agreeable because your

1269
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:47,160
Speaker 1: partner is bringing out those qualities in you, Like they're

1270
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 1: kind of like highlighting these good parts of you and

1271
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 1: saying like, look, luckily you have this in you, And

1272
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 1: I think that's really cool. Like I think it's good

1273
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 1: to know that as you take on these roles eventually

1274
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 1: over time, you know it's going to be gradual. You'll

1275
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 1: kind of shape shift to meet the moment, and you know,

1276
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:06,040
Speaker 1: you have to want to do it. You know, there's

1277
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 1: a lot of like parents out there who could probably

1278
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 1: stand to put more of a concerted effort into it.

1279
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:14,360
Speaker 1: But I do think it's it's hopeful that situations will

1280
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 1: bring out qualities in us.

1281
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 2: How does this work apply to people in relationships where

1282
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:23,440
Speaker 2: they want their partner to change? And you'll hear someone go,

1283
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 2: I just see their potential. I know who they could be,

1284
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 2: they could they could really get it together, but they

1285
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,960
Speaker 2: don't see it in themselves. Yeah, someone's thinking that way.

1286
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 2: How would you encourage them to think about change?

1287
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:36,880
Speaker 1: I really wish I had written a chapter of this

1288
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 1: book called how to change your partner, because every single

1289
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 1: interviewer has asked me that question, and I don't really

1290
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 1: have a good answer because we haven't really studied how

1291
01:03:45,240 --> 01:03:47,760
Speaker 1: to change other people. Like this is like the brick

1292
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:50,440
Speaker 1: wall that all of society like bangs their head against,

1293
01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 1: which is that we all wish our partners were a

1294
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 1: certain way, and that our partners are never going to

1295
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 1: be that way completely. So first of all, like any

1296
01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:02,080
Speaker 1: profound and serious change over time, time has to come

1297
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 1: from within, right, Like if you really want to make

1298
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:07,880
Speaker 1: someone like less anxious, saying like just calm down, stop worrying.

1299
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:09,960
Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't work. They have to want to

1300
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 1: be less anxious. For some of the skills though, or

1301
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:15,680
Speaker 1: for some of the traits, it can be something where

1302
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:20,200
Speaker 1: like maybe you introduce your partner to some of the

1303
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:22,920
Speaker 1: tools that will help them be more conscientious. Maybe like

1304
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:27,760
Speaker 1: you start an exercise program together. For example, maybe you start, hey,

1305
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 1: let's like both set a time every week where we're

1306
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 1: going to sync up our calendars and figure out who

1307
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 1: needs to be where when. You can do these like

1308
01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:38,000
Speaker 1: little tools and strategies to kind of move them closer,

1309
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:41,240
Speaker 1: especially to conscientiousness. This has been found to work well,

1310
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:43,000
Speaker 1: where like you can kind of do it in the

1311
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 1: background and it just kind of works. They don't have

1312
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 1: to really want it. It's hard because in order to

1313
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 1: keep that going, in order to go on a run,

1314
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:53,080
Speaker 1: you know, without you, they have to want to do it.

1315
01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:56,280
Speaker 1: People want different things in life. That's that's like part

1316
01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 1: of what motivates personality change and what motivates everything else.

1317
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:02,800
Speaker 1: You could try, you know, asking them if they seem

1318
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:05,840
Speaker 1: to be living in accordance with their values. It's like, hey,

1319
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 1: you said that you really wanted to exercise this year,

1320
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:11,160
Speaker 1: and we haven't done anything in weeks. Do you feel

1321
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:14,400
Speaker 1: like we're exercising enough, Like you could do some motivational interviewing,

1322
01:05:14,680 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 1: but ultimately, you know, people have to find it in

1323
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 1: themselves to do the things that are good for them.

1324
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:26,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. People don't change for people, No, they change for themselves. Yeah. Yeah,

1325
01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 2: they change when they want to, They change how they

1326
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 2: want to, and they change at their pace and their time.

1327
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 2: And this idea that you have the power to change anyone,

1328
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 2: if you just stop for a moment and thought about

1329
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 2: how hard it's been to change yourself, right, you'd immediately

1330
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:45,160
Speaker 2: realize that you have zero power over anyone else. And

1331
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:47,960
Speaker 2: the reason why you're being asked by everyone is because

1332
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:51,080
Speaker 2: I think it's the biggest myth. Because we think that

1333
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 2: if we can see someone's potential, we can change them.

1334
01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 2: We think that if we can see someone's amazing future,

1335
01:05:57,600 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 2: we can change them. And we think if we can

1336
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 2: see what someone could be and achieve that, we're somehow

1337
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:06,200
Speaker 2: holier than them for seeing that, and we think of

1338
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 2: it as well intentioned, but actually it's not, because well

1339
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:14,160
Speaker 2: intentioned means I let you become who you want to become,

1340
01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:17,120
Speaker 2: and I accept that that's who you are, and sometimes

1341
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 2: it's painful because you can truly see what someone's capable of,

1342
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 2: and that can be well intentioned, but until they really

1343
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:27,240
Speaker 2: believe they want that for themselves, it really doesn't matter.

1344
01:06:27,960 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 2: And that is one of the most painful things to watch,

1345
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:32,720
Speaker 2: is someone lose out on their potential.

1346
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:34,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and you can talk to any you know,

1347
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 1: relative of an addict, or anyone who sees a clear

1348
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:41,880
Speaker 1: path for someone and they won't take it. It's very

1349
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 1: hard to make other people do things that you think

1350
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:44,520
Speaker 1: are good.

1351
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:49,200
Speaker 2: How does someone who's more pessimistic and negative and is

1352
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:52,800
Speaker 2: listening to us right now and thinking, oga, I want

1353
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:56,280
Speaker 2: to become more of an optimistic or at least realistic person,

1354
01:06:57,200 --> 01:06:59,400
Speaker 2: where do I start? How does that personality change?

1355
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:01,280
Speaker 1: Look, well, you've come to the right place. Because I

1356
01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:04,439
Speaker 1: am very negative and pessimistic. I would say I still

1357
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:06,760
Speaker 1: am even despite you know this this huge project that

1358
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:09,920
Speaker 1: I did where I really really tried to change myself.

1359
01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:12,960
Speaker 1: So something that I came across that was really helpful

1360
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:16,000
Speaker 1: for this is the work of Tracy Dennis Tawari, who's

1361
01:07:16,160 --> 01:07:19,960
Speaker 1: a psychologist who studies anxiety and a big thing kind

1362
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:21,960
Speaker 1: of an idea that I had about my anxiety was

1363
01:07:22,040 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 1: that I need anxiety to kind of help me avoid

1364
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:28,120
Speaker 1: bad stuff, like I need like I will I will

1365
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:30,920
Speaker 1: screw up and like not get where I need to

1366
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:32,960
Speaker 1: be or like you know, mess things up unless I

1367
01:07:32,960 --> 01:07:36,240
Speaker 1: stay really anxious and vigilant. And eventually what that would

1368
01:07:36,280 --> 01:07:40,880
Speaker 1: do is is turn into just constantly worrying and constantly

1369
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 1: being in a negative space. Where I was I was

1370
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:46,240
Speaker 1: never really enjoying anything because I was worrying about the

1371
01:07:46,280 --> 01:07:50,280
Speaker 1: next thing. So anxiety, you can worry. You can think

1372
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:52,520
Speaker 1: about the things that could go wrong right, Like if

1373
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:55,200
Speaker 1: you're putting in an offer on a house or trying

1374
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:57,280
Speaker 1: to get a new job or whatever you're doing. You

1375
01:07:57,400 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 1: can think about, like, oh, how how could this interview

1376
01:07:59,600 --> 01:07:59,919
Speaker 1: go wrong?

1377
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:00,280
Speaker 2: Right?

1378
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:03,479
Speaker 1: But also think about how it could go right. Really,

1379
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:05,920
Speaker 1: most things in life, some things go wrong and some

1380
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:08,760
Speaker 1: things go right, like you know what we were saying earlier,

1381
01:08:09,120 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 1: And you can actually make a list of your worries

1382
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:13,600
Speaker 1: of like things that could go wrong with this, but

1383
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:16,000
Speaker 1: then make another column of like things that could go

1384
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:18,720
Speaker 1: right with this, and how will I try to move

1385
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:22,320
Speaker 1: like more of these into this other column, because it

1386
01:08:22,520 --> 01:08:26,200
Speaker 1: is it's unrealistic to only worry and to only think

1387
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:29,320
Speaker 1: about the negative because some amount of things will will

1388
01:08:29,400 --> 01:08:31,920
Speaker 1: go well, or even if some of those bad things happen,

1389
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:34,960
Speaker 1: there might be good in them or things that are,

1390
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:37,640
Speaker 1: you know, maybe not so bad as you feared. So

1391
01:08:37,760 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 1: I would just I call it reverse worrying. And it's

1392
01:08:40,280 --> 01:08:43,120
Speaker 1: just it's not just like positive thinking. I'm sure everything

1393
01:08:43,160 --> 01:08:45,479
Speaker 1: will be fine, it's some things will be fine.

1394
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:48,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I like the idea of consciously having to

1395
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:52,080
Speaker 2: think about those again, it's just rewiring those thoughts that

1396
01:08:52,200 --> 01:08:56,799
Speaker 2: are so habituated to constantly pull you in that negative cycle.

1397
01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:01,519
Speaker 2: And you're right, it isn't this false toxic positivity, because

1398
01:09:01,560 --> 01:09:05,679
Speaker 2: that isn't helpful or healthy at all. And it does

1399
01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 2: take a lot of practice and repetition, because yeah, you're

1400
01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:10,840
Speaker 2: likely to wake up in the morning and the first

1401
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:13,160
Speaker 2: thought you have as oh, I'm so tired, I just

1402
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:14,720
Speaker 2: don't want to get out of bed, and so your

1403
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:17,840
Speaker 2: first thought of the day is a negative, pessimistic one

1404
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:21,720
Speaker 2: as opposed to an optimistic, thoughtful one of all, right,

1405
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:23,800
Speaker 2: I'm glad I got six hours last night, you know,

1406
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:27,000
Speaker 2: or okay, well, yeah I didn't get enough sleep last night.

1407
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:29,360
Speaker 2: Let me get a bed early tonight. Whatever that may

1408
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 2: be could make the shift. What about someone who's feeling

1409
01:09:33,479 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 2: like they're a people pleaser and they want to set boundaries,

1410
01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:41,040
Speaker 2: but they struggle with it because they're scared of being

1411
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:46,599
Speaker 2: seen as selfish or assertive. How did they start making

1412
01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:47,200
Speaker 2: that shift.

1413
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:51,160
Speaker 1: I've really had to apply this with parenting, but you

1414
01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:54,479
Speaker 1: can kind of in a way, you can kind of

1415
01:09:54,600 --> 01:09:57,559
Speaker 1: parent people around you, not literally, but you can kind

1416
01:09:57,600 --> 01:10:00,760
Speaker 1: of like use some of the tools from parenting with

1417
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:03,880
Speaker 1: other people, which is make people feel heard, Like if

1418
01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:06,679
Speaker 1: someone's upset with you about something. To give you an example,

1419
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:08,880
Speaker 1: I had a friend who texted me to say that

1420
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:12,160
Speaker 1: she wanted me to check in with her via text

1421
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:15,680
Speaker 1: message at least once a week and that we were

1422
01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:18,960
Speaker 1: not going to be friends unless I text check in

1423
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:22,400
Speaker 1: with her once a week. And I don't like texting.

1424
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:26,760
Speaker 1: It's a very like a scheduling platform for me, not

1425
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:29,360
Speaker 1: a like emotional one, and I just don't like it.

1426
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:31,760
Speaker 1: And so at the time I sort of was like,

1427
01:10:32,040 --> 01:10:34,240
Speaker 1: because it was before this project, I was like, Oh,

1428
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:37,360
Speaker 1: of course I'll do whatever you want. I'll people please, right,

1429
01:10:37,479 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 1: I'll text you every week. And of course I did

1430
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:41,160
Speaker 1: it twice and then forgot because I don't actually like

1431
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:44,320
Speaker 1: doing it. So what I learned from Miriam Kermeyer, who's

1432
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:46,360
Speaker 1: like a friendship expert, is you can say like, hey,

1433
01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:48,560
Speaker 1: I hear you. You feel like I'm not checking in

1434
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:50,600
Speaker 1: with you enough, you feel like we're not connected. I

1435
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:53,920
Speaker 1: totally get that. The thing is, I really don't like

1436
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:57,639
Speaker 1: texting people in order to have conversations. It interrupts my workflow.

1437
01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:00,040
Speaker 1: Is there another way that we can do this? We

1438
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:03,400
Speaker 1: will meet your underlying need of being seen in this

1439
01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:06,120
Speaker 1: friendship and being checked in on and going through this

1440
01:11:06,240 --> 01:11:09,080
Speaker 1: hard thing, you know, with me checking on you, but

1441
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:11,840
Speaker 1: not require me to use this platform that I really

1442
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:14,519
Speaker 1: don't like to do this thing that I really feel

1443
01:11:14,520 --> 01:11:16,600
Speaker 1: like it's not well equipped for. You know, maybe we

1444
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:19,160
Speaker 1: could schedule a weekly phone call, Maybe we could go

1445
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:21,080
Speaker 1: for a walk, and maybe we could do you know,

1446
01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:24,160
Speaker 1: those other list of activities. There's almost always a solution

1447
01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:27,240
Speaker 1: like that where you're meeting the underlying need, but you're

1448
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:29,200
Speaker 1: not doing it in this way that is like not

1449
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:30,040
Speaker 1: workable for you.

1450
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:33,080
Speaker 2: I love that because it is an underlying need. That

1451
01:11:33,200 --> 01:11:36,720
Speaker 2: person doesn't really want a text every week, No, that's

1452
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:39,760
Speaker 2: that's them trying to find the bare minimum way to

1453
01:11:39,920 --> 01:11:42,240
Speaker 2: keep you in them life. That's really what they're doing,

1454
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:45,080
Speaker 2: is what's the least I can ask for to try

1455
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:47,400
Speaker 2: and keep this person alive in my life. But what

1456
01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:49,920
Speaker 2: I actually want is a really meaningful conversation once a

1457
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:52,640
Speaker 2: month on the phone or in person, where we go

1458
01:11:52,720 --> 01:11:55,120
Speaker 2: out for dinner or have tea or whatever it may be.

1459
01:11:55,960 --> 01:11:58,439
Speaker 2: That's what I'm really looking for. And I think the

1460
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:03,400
Speaker 2: more relationships go to solving the underlying need, the less

1461
01:12:03,479 --> 01:12:06,280
Speaker 2: bitter will feel around. Hey, but I texted you every

1462
01:12:06,280 --> 01:12:08,400
Speaker 2: week and you still don't feel close to me. I

1463
01:12:08,479 --> 01:12:11,599
Speaker 2: remember one of my friends said to me, she said,

1464
01:12:12,400 --> 01:12:16,240
Speaker 2: I just don't spend any time with my partner and

1465
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:17,960
Speaker 2: I said, well, he just taught me. You guys went

1466
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:21,519
Speaker 2: away last weekend and she said, yeah, but he was

1467
01:12:22,120 --> 01:12:25,600
Speaker 2: reading a book or the news or whatever it was,

1468
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:28,600
Speaker 2: and I was trying to entertain the kids and we

1469
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:33,080
Speaker 2: didn't spend any time together. And I was like, well,

1470
01:12:33,200 --> 01:12:38,599
Speaker 2: the underlying need is alone time, presence connection. It's not time.

1471
01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:41,000
Speaker 2: You did have time together, you were both in the

1472
01:12:41,040 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 2: same place at the same time. But the underlying need

1473
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:47,960
Speaker 2: is wanting connection in a safe space probably, and you know,

1474
01:12:48,040 --> 01:12:50,760
Speaker 2: it's asking that person what is that underlying need, and

1475
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:53,280
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you start to realize it's eye contact,

1476
01:12:53,400 --> 01:12:58,080
Speaker 2: it's vulnerability, it's being able to share something that I've

1477
01:12:58,080 --> 01:13:01,439
Speaker 2: been struggling with. And I find that no one ever

1478
01:13:01,479 --> 01:13:04,040
Speaker 2: communicates that. We always communicate as like, oh, can we

1479
01:13:04,160 --> 01:13:06,240
Speaker 2: just see each other once a week? Yeah, and that's

1480
01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:08,600
Speaker 2: not really you know what you're looking for?

1481
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:12,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, And this also works I found with like political disagreements.

1482
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:14,600
Speaker 1: So when someone just comes at you with I have

1483
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:16,679
Speaker 1: people in my life who I really disagree with politically

1484
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:19,640
Speaker 1: on very important issues. When someone comes at you and

1485
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:22,280
Speaker 1: just starts ranting at you about their worldview that you

1486
01:13:22,360 --> 01:13:25,280
Speaker 1: don't agree with, often it's because they are kind of

1487
01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:28,160
Speaker 1: making a bid for connection, Like they're like, hey, this

1488
01:13:28,280 --> 01:13:30,839
Speaker 1: thing is so important to me, Like is it important

1489
01:13:30,840 --> 01:13:32,639
Speaker 1: to you too, Like they're kind of trying to get

1490
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:35,560
Speaker 1: you into their world. And once you see that, it

1491
01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:38,080
Speaker 1: becomes less about like this person is my political enemy

1492
01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:42,040
Speaker 1: and more about this person wants to establish a friendship.

1493
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:44,200
Speaker 1: Let's find something else to like base it on because

1494
01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:45,960
Speaker 1: we don't agree on this, but you know, it can

1495
01:13:46,040 --> 01:13:48,280
Speaker 1: become almost like a like a friendly thing as opposed

1496
01:13:48,280 --> 01:13:49,839
Speaker 1: to this you know, political fight.

1497
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:52,759
Speaker 2: That's a really beautiful nuance point of If you notice

1498
01:13:52,960 --> 01:13:58,960
Speaker 2: people's conversations as a expression of them inviting you into

1499
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:03,760
Speaker 2: their world, which is often what it is, you start

1500
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:06,160
Speaker 2: realizing it it's actually not that much of a It

1501
01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:08,320
Speaker 2: doesn't have some deep agenda or something. It's just them

1502
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:11,639
Speaker 2: saying this is what I think about. It's really tough

1503
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:15,040
Speaker 2: because we're all so busy and moving so fast that

1504
01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:17,280
Speaker 2: when you see something you don't like or doesn't and

1505
01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:19,200
Speaker 2: I think that's what we've got to in society today

1506
01:14:19,280 --> 01:14:21,639
Speaker 2: is if I see a message or someone posts something

1507
01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:24,519
Speaker 2: on their stories that I don't like, I start labeling

1508
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:26,439
Speaker 2: them as someone that I don't want to interact with,

1509
01:14:27,040 --> 01:14:29,280
Speaker 2: rather than seeing that person as just a human who's

1510
01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:32,839
Speaker 2: expressing their thoughts, beliefs, and things they're interested in exactly.

1511
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:34,840
Speaker 2: And we just don't have the time and capacity for that.

1512
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:39,840
Speaker 2: I was going to ask, can an introvert actually become

1513
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:41,360
Speaker 2: an extrovert if they want to?

1514
01:14:41,720 --> 01:14:44,799
Speaker 1: So I think they can, But I would recommend against

1515
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:49,320
Speaker 1: thinking of yourself as a pure introvert or extrovert. It's

1516
01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:52,439
Speaker 1: really uncommon to be all the way to one end

1517
01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:55,479
Speaker 1: or the other of introversion and extroversion let's say you

1518
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:59,920
Speaker 1: are quite introverted, though likely you would basically consider your

1519
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:03,160
Speaker 1: almost all the way introverted. I think it is possible

1520
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:05,840
Speaker 1: to become extroverted, but it's it's going to take a

1521
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:08,960
Speaker 1: lot of work. It's going to take a lot of effort.

1522
01:15:09,000 --> 01:15:11,200
Speaker 1: I think I kind of realized that I was more

1523
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:14,320
Speaker 1: extroverted than I maybe was thinking at the beginning of

1524
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 1: this project, Like I kind of found that I when

1525
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:18,120
Speaker 1: I didn't go to improv I would really miss it,

1526
01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:20,320
Speaker 1: or when I didn't go to my little silly meetups,

1527
01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:22,559
Speaker 1: I was kind of like the weekend felt a little empty.

1528
01:15:23,240 --> 01:15:25,880
Speaker 1: So I would kind of avoid categorizing yourself and I

1529
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:28,599
Speaker 1: would just see what it feels like to have more

1530
01:15:28,680 --> 01:15:31,720
Speaker 1: social interaction than you're used to. But let's say it

1531
01:15:31,840 --> 01:15:35,120
Speaker 1: doesn't feel amazing. Like let's say you're like, it's is

1532
01:15:35,200 --> 01:15:37,320
Speaker 1: actually quite exhausting, and you're like, I do need that

1533
01:15:37,439 --> 01:15:40,599
Speaker 1: quiet time alone to recharge. There's this concept called free

1534
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:44,000
Speaker 1: traits that some psychologists have, which is that like, rather

1535
01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:47,479
Speaker 1: than permanently changing to where it's like I'm a total

1536
01:15:47,640 --> 01:15:49,920
Speaker 1: extrovert in every situation I want to talk to people,

1537
01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:53,639
Speaker 1: you kind of learn the ability to kind of try

1538
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:56,880
Speaker 1: on this personality trait. It's almost like an invisibility cloak

1539
01:15:57,040 --> 01:15:59,080
Speaker 1: or something where you can kind of like put on

1540
01:15:59,240 --> 01:16:01,519
Speaker 1: extroversion and then do whatever it is you need to

1541
01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:04,679
Speaker 1: do with that extraversion. So a lot of times college

1542
01:16:04,720 --> 01:16:07,160
Speaker 1: professors will do this because they have to give these

1543
01:16:07,240 --> 01:16:10,000
Speaker 1: like interesting lectures, you know, but they're the way they

1544
01:16:10,040 --> 01:16:11,479
Speaker 1: got to where they are is because they're good at

1545
01:16:11,520 --> 01:16:14,200
Speaker 1: like reading papers for you know, twelve hours at a time,

1546
01:16:14,439 --> 01:16:17,360
Speaker 1: so they're usually they are pretty introverted. And Brian Little

1547
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:21,840
Speaker 1: he kind of does say that he puts on extraversion,

1548
01:16:21,920 --> 01:16:24,280
Speaker 1: like he puts on the free trade of extraversion, goes

1549
01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:26,240
Speaker 1: out and gives his lecture, and then he has to

1550
01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:29,160
Speaker 1: like go hide by himself. He can't you know, stay

1551
01:16:29,200 --> 01:16:30,800
Speaker 1: in that room and glad hand. He has to go

1552
01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:34,519
Speaker 1: retreat and kind of restore to his introversion. So that's

1553
01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:36,720
Speaker 1: another way to think about about it. I think that's

1554
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:40,000
Speaker 1: still personality change because it's still allowing you to meet

1555
01:16:40,040 --> 01:16:43,040
Speaker 1: your goals that you have and it's not permanent. But

1556
01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:45,679
Speaker 1: you know, to anyone who talks to him, he would

1557
01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:46,680
Speaker 1: be an extrovert, and.

1558
01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:51,240
Speaker 2: It's just reconciling that with Again, I just see this

1559
01:16:52,280 --> 01:16:54,120
Speaker 2: challenge that we have with that today, which I don't

1560
01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:57,280
Speaker 2: think is it's valid, but it's not justified this idea

1561
01:16:57,400 --> 01:16:59,439
Speaker 2: of oh, but that's an authentic like you're just you

1562
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:03,639
Speaker 2: just using, you're just manipulating something, or you're adopting a skill,

1563
01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:06,479
Speaker 2: and it's like, well, no, we all have to have

1564
01:17:06,640 --> 01:17:09,439
Speaker 2: skills at work that we don't use at home. Yeah, right,

1565
01:17:09,520 --> 01:17:11,599
Speaker 2: you're not that person at work, and you wouldn't try

1566
01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:13,920
Speaker 2: and organize your family and the way you project manage

1567
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:17,120
Speaker 2: at work, and it's not inauthentic to turn that off

1568
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:20,280
Speaker 2: at home. It's normal to do that. And so yes,

1569
01:17:20,360 --> 01:17:23,839
Speaker 2: if you need to develop communication skills to get promoted,

1570
01:17:24,360 --> 01:17:27,160
Speaker 2: that's a healthy investment because that's an important part of

1571
01:17:27,200 --> 01:17:30,559
Speaker 2: your life if it is, and those skills will probably

1572
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:32,439
Speaker 2: come in handy at home and in your personal life too.

1573
01:17:32,680 --> 01:17:33,639
Speaker 1: Oh totally. Yeah.

1574
01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:35,880
Speaker 2: So it's almost like, how do we start looking at

1575
01:17:36,000 --> 01:17:40,080
Speaker 2: life as the accumulation of skills and abilities and traits

1576
01:17:40,120 --> 01:17:44,679
Speaker 2: and habits as opposed to shifting our entire identity because

1577
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:46,600
Speaker 2: of that Just in the same way as if you

1578
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:49,800
Speaker 2: wore color today, you're now not someone who just wears

1579
01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:52,720
Speaker 2: color exactly. Yeah, you know, but it's weird how the

1580
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:55,920
Speaker 2: mind kind of plays that trick in saying, Oh, I'm

1581
01:17:56,040 --> 01:17:58,600
Speaker 2: just people pleasing or I'm just shape shifting, which I

1582
01:17:58,640 --> 01:17:59,880
Speaker 2: think has become such a worry to.

1583
01:18:00,479 --> 01:18:03,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, or masking people. Yeah, I've heard about like people

1584
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:08,400
Speaker 1: saying I'm masking if I'm like doing anything functional, and

1585
01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:11,120
Speaker 1: I'm like no, I mean we are all masking to

1586
01:18:11,280 --> 01:18:13,000
Speaker 1: some extent. Like you know, I have to go on

1587
01:18:13,080 --> 01:18:17,040
Speaker 1: the radio sometimes, and that's definitely. You know, I don't

1588
01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:19,320
Speaker 1: talk all the time like I talk on NPR, like

1589
01:18:20,040 --> 01:18:22,960
Speaker 1: you know, we all have different ways of presenting ourselves

1590
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:23,880
Speaker 1: depending on the situation.

1591
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:26,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. I wanted to ask you a last few

1592
01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:29,559
Speaker 2: sections a question, how does this apply to people who

1593
01:18:29,640 --> 01:18:34,639
Speaker 2: are diagnosed with depression or ADHD. Can they also change

1594
01:18:34,800 --> 01:18:36,880
Speaker 2: that through this work or is that very different.

1595
01:18:37,320 --> 01:18:40,200
Speaker 1: There's actually been this push in psychology to identify the

1596
01:18:40,280 --> 01:18:43,760
Speaker 1: personality traits that are associated with things like depression and ADHD.

1597
01:18:44,600 --> 01:18:48,080
Speaker 1: So my depression score went way down with changing neuroticism.

1598
01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:52,720
Speaker 1: Neuroticism and depression and anxiety are very closely linked. A

1599
01:18:52,800 --> 01:18:54,479
Speaker 1: lot of these things that we think of as sort

1600
01:18:54,520 --> 01:18:57,680
Speaker 1: of mental illnesses or mental health conditions actually have a

1601
01:18:57,760 --> 01:19:02,320
Speaker 1: personality trait component to them, and NBS are the class

1602
01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:04,639
Speaker 1: that I took actually is gone head to head with lexipro,

1603
01:19:04,720 --> 01:19:07,640
Speaker 1: the antidepressant, and it works just as well. So in

1604
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:11,920
Speaker 1: some ways changes yeah wow, So in some ways, changing

1605
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:15,200
Speaker 1: your personality traits can address some of these whatever you

1606
01:19:15,240 --> 01:19:18,320
Speaker 1: want to call them, mental health conditions that you might

1607
01:19:18,400 --> 01:19:20,360
Speaker 1: not be thrilled with to have in your life. So

1608
01:19:20,920 --> 01:19:23,640
Speaker 1: if it is depression, you know, something like meditation or

1609
01:19:23,720 --> 01:19:26,560
Speaker 1: therapy can really go a great deal to addressing that.

1610
01:19:27,240 --> 01:19:29,760
Speaker 1: If it's something like ADHD, some people think that's just

1611
01:19:29,840 --> 01:19:32,120
Speaker 1: like a form of low conscientiousness. So if you think

1612
01:19:32,120 --> 01:19:35,160
Speaker 1: about it, it's just not having the systems in place

1613
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:36,960
Speaker 1: to remember where your stuff is and where you need

1614
01:19:37,040 --> 01:19:39,640
Speaker 1: to be and what's on your calendar. So a lot

1615
01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:43,439
Speaker 1: of the therapists who work with adults with ADHD basically

1616
01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:47,600
Speaker 1: just give them the tools that they use for conscientiousness.

1617
01:19:47,680 --> 01:19:50,200
Speaker 1: So it's like, here's a Google calendar, like fill it

1618
01:19:50,240 --> 01:19:52,000
Speaker 1: out with every single thing you need to do this week.

1619
01:19:52,080 --> 01:19:54,240
Speaker 1: Here's you know to do list, It's an app that

1620
01:19:54,320 --> 01:19:56,920
Speaker 1: I use. Here's a clock that you can set fifteen

1621
01:19:56,920 --> 01:19:59,599
Speaker 1: minutes at a time. It's coming up with the tools

1622
01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:02,880
Speaker 1: that people use to change personality traits too, And there's

1623
01:20:02,920 --> 01:20:07,439
Speaker 1: actually a new effort to treat a borderline personality disorder,

1624
01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:11,280
Speaker 1: which is a mental condition, it also has a personality

1625
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:15,400
Speaker 1: component obviously. By changing personality traits, it's using some of

1626
01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:18,400
Speaker 1: the strategies in the book and through therapy to actually

1627
01:20:18,560 --> 01:20:22,799
Speaker 1: shift people's levels of agreeableness and so forth and actually

1628
01:20:22,880 --> 01:20:24,679
Speaker 1: help cure BPD.

1629
01:20:25,200 --> 01:20:26,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think we're just living at that time right

1630
01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:30,680
Speaker 2: now where it feels like work to go to MBSR

1631
01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:33,800
Speaker 2: or to therapy and you don't actually end up having

1632
01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:36,760
Speaker 2: any skills. Yeah, right, like with the pill, Like you

1633
01:20:37,160 --> 01:20:40,960
Speaker 2: don't change your reality. You're numbing something or you're better

1634
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:44,840
Speaker 2: at dealing with it, or there's a sense of this

1635
01:20:45,040 --> 01:20:49,600
Speaker 2: doesn't worry me anymore. But there's not really an expansion

1636
01:20:49,680 --> 01:20:52,599
Speaker 2: of ability and skill. And my I mean, I'm mindful

1637
01:20:52,640 --> 01:20:55,080
Speaker 2: of the fact that people are on very very different

1638
01:20:55,160 --> 01:20:57,800
Speaker 2: levels and may need it, but it's quite fascinating to

1639
01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:01,320
Speaker 2: hear that MBSR has that ability in similar scores.

1640
01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:03,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what you have to keep in mind is

1641
01:21:03,400 --> 01:21:06,519
Speaker 1: that I pro antidepressants whatever works for people, but you know,

1642
01:21:06,640 --> 01:21:08,479
Speaker 1: they can reach a point where they don't work very

1643
01:21:08,520 --> 01:21:11,160
Speaker 1: well anymore. But the skills that you learn through something

1644
01:21:11,240 --> 01:21:14,960
Speaker 1: like meditation, mindfulness, even like a you know, a cognitive

1645
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:18,000
Speaker 1: behavioral therapy, they'll be with you through life, even when

1646
01:21:18,040 --> 01:21:22,160
Speaker 1: you don't have your xanax, andy or whatever. So it's

1647
01:21:22,160 --> 01:21:25,520
Speaker 1: something I recommend maybe doing, even in tandem with whatever antidepressant.

1648
01:21:25,800 --> 01:21:29,080
Speaker 2: We end every episode of On Purpose with a final five,

1649
01:21:29,479 --> 01:21:32,160
Speaker 2: So these questions have to be anested in one word

1650
01:21:32,240 --> 01:21:34,960
Speaker 2: to one sentence maximum. Okay, so Olga has on. These

1651
01:21:34,960 --> 01:21:37,360
Speaker 2: are your final five. Question number one is what is

1652
01:21:37,439 --> 01:21:39,800
Speaker 2: the best advice you've ever heard or received and you

1653
01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:42,360
Speaker 2: can apply it well to personality in your world? So

1654
01:21:42,880 --> 01:21:45,360
Speaker 2: what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?

1655
01:21:45,760 --> 01:21:48,000
Speaker 1: Go work at a place that will let you do

1656
01:21:48,680 --> 01:21:51,599
Speaker 1: exactly what you want to be doing, even if it's

1657
01:21:51,760 --> 01:21:54,080
Speaker 1: a very small establishment.

1658
01:21:54,640 --> 01:21:56,920
Speaker 2: Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever

1659
01:21:56,960 --> 01:21:57,679
Speaker 2: heard or received?

1660
01:21:57,880 --> 01:22:00,519
Speaker 1: That if something is difficult, it's not worth doing.

1661
01:22:00,800 --> 01:22:04,240
Speaker 2: Question number three, what's something that you used to think

1662
01:22:04,400 --> 01:22:07,599
Speaker 2: was true about personality but now you've changed your mind

1663
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:07,840
Speaker 2: on it.

1664
01:22:08,040 --> 01:22:10,280
Speaker 1: I used to think that your birth order was the

1665
01:22:10,400 --> 01:22:14,320
Speaker 1: most important thing that determined your personality interesting, and it

1666
01:22:14,439 --> 01:22:16,040
Speaker 1: is actually not at all important.

1667
01:22:16,240 --> 01:22:18,240
Speaker 2: Let's talk about that, because people feel like I from

1668
01:22:18,320 --> 01:22:20,400
Speaker 2: the first child, or the third child, or this middle.

1669
01:22:20,280 --> 01:22:21,280
Speaker 1: Child, eldest daughter.

1670
01:22:21,479 --> 01:22:23,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, none of that stuff's real. No.

1671
01:22:24,439 --> 01:22:26,880
Speaker 1: Wow, there are some gender effects so that you could

1672
01:22:26,920 --> 01:22:29,240
Speaker 1: be picking up on, like being a daughter versus a son,

1673
01:22:29,360 --> 01:22:34,040
Speaker 1: But the birth order, it's very negligible. It's extremely small.

1674
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:39,200
Speaker 2: Question Number four, What is the biggest change that you've

1675
01:22:39,240 --> 01:22:42,120
Speaker 2: seen in yourself going on this journey that you're most

1676
01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:43,639
Speaker 2: grateful for now looking back?

1677
01:22:44,040 --> 01:22:46,560
Speaker 1: Oh, it's that I think I need to connect with

1678
01:22:46,640 --> 01:22:48,160
Speaker 1: other people in order to be happy.

1679
01:22:48,520 --> 01:22:49,840
Speaker 2: And you didn't used to believe that. No.

1680
01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:51,760
Speaker 1: I used to think that I could just be a

1681
01:22:52,080 --> 01:22:54,439
Speaker 1: little astronaut in space and never talk to anyone and

1682
01:22:54,560 --> 01:22:57,200
Speaker 1: be totally fine. I think I, especially as a new mom,

1683
01:22:57,520 --> 01:22:59,680
Speaker 1: I joined a bunch of new moms groups and I

1684
01:23:00,040 --> 01:23:01,800
Speaker 1: I really need those. You can't do it alone.

1685
01:23:02,040 --> 01:23:04,720
Speaker 2: I love that. Fifth and final question. We asked this

1686
01:23:04,840 --> 01:23:07,000
Speaker 2: to every guest who's ever been on the show. If

1687
01:23:07,040 --> 01:23:09,439
Speaker 2: you could create one law that everyone in the world

1688
01:23:09,520 --> 01:23:11,040
Speaker 2: had to follow, what would it be?

1689
01:23:11,439 --> 01:23:14,479
Speaker 1: No flaking on plans at the last minute. What's with that?

1690
01:23:15,400 --> 01:23:16,920
Speaker 2: I love it when someone cancels on it.

1691
01:23:19,080 --> 01:23:20,000
Speaker 1: The joy of missing out there.

1692
01:23:20,040 --> 01:23:22,599
Speaker 2: I never canceled last minute, because I'm not that guy.

1693
01:23:23,040 --> 01:23:25,360
Speaker 2: But I love someone canceling over me last minute, No

1694
01:23:25,720 --> 01:23:26,000
Speaker 2: and so.

1695
01:23:26,120 --> 01:23:28,160
Speaker 1: And it's always like, you know, I just can't today,

1696
01:23:28,200 --> 01:23:30,639
Speaker 1: It's like, yes, you can. You do it every other day,

1697
01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:31,160
Speaker 1: Like come on.

1698
01:23:31,840 --> 01:23:33,760
Speaker 2: I love it. There's to be some punishment for that.

1699
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:36,120
Speaker 2: Then if you break that loan, I know.

1700
01:23:36,360 --> 01:23:38,120
Speaker 1: Hanging out with that person for a whole week.

1701
01:23:37,920 --> 01:23:38,240
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1702
01:23:38,680 --> 01:23:39,000
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1703
01:23:39,720 --> 01:23:42,600
Speaker 2: I love it. Everyone on the book is called Me

1704
01:23:43,000 --> 01:23:46,680
Speaker 2: but Better, The Science and Promise of Personality Change by

1705
01:23:46,760 --> 01:23:49,720
Speaker 2: Olga Hazan. I hope you've enjoyed this conversation. Make sure

1706
01:23:49,720 --> 01:23:53,400
Speaker 2: you share your favorite reflections, the experiments you're trying, the

1707
01:23:53,479 --> 01:23:56,000
Speaker 2: takeaways from the book as you're reading it. Please post

1708
01:23:56,040 --> 01:23:58,799
Speaker 2: them and tag both of us on Instagram on TikTok.

1709
01:23:59,000 --> 01:24:00,960
Speaker 2: I love seeing all your story and reels to see

1710
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:03,360
Speaker 2: what resonates with you. Olga, thank you so much for

1711
01:24:03,439 --> 01:24:05,800
Speaker 2: coming on the show again. It's been wonderful to meet you,

1712
01:24:05,920 --> 01:24:09,000
Speaker 2: and thank you so much for helping us teach us

1713
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:11,160
Speaker 2: how to be ourselves but better. So thank you so much.

1714
01:24:11,320 --> 01:24:12,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much.

1715
01:24:12,640 --> 01:24:15,479
Speaker 2: If you love this episode, you love my conversation with

1716
01:24:15,640 --> 01:24:20,519
Speaker 2: doctor Joe Dispenser on why stressing overthinking negatively impacts your

1717
01:24:20,600 --> 01:24:23,519
Speaker 2: brain and heart and how to change your habits that

1718
01:24:23,640 --> 01:24:27,080
Speaker 2: are on autopilot. Listen to it right now. How many

1719
01:24:27,200 --> 01:24:30,879
Speaker 2: times do we have to forget until we stop forgetting

1720
01:24:30,880 --> 01:24:31,799
Speaker 2: and start remembering.

1721
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:33,080
Speaker 1: That's the moment of change.

1722
01:24:33,240 --> 01:24:34,479
Speaker 2: Who cares how many times

1723
01:24:34,560 --> 01:24:36,679
Speaker 1: You fell off the bicycle if you ride the bicycle,

1724
01:24:36,720 --> 01:24:37,840
Speaker 1: Now you ride the bike.