Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a reduction of shondaland
Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with My Heart Radio. We're still not
Speaker 1: extending the care that we need to the people who
Speaker 1: are always going to be left out, who are always
Speaker 1: going to be quote unquote ugly. And when I'm thinking
Speaker 1: about what do I want an ideal society to be,
Speaker 1: what I would want is even those people who don't
Speaker 1: fit any beauty, ideal, any standard, right that you can
Speaker 1: have access to the care that you need. Hello, and
Speaker 1: welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. I've become a huge
Speaker 1: consumer of YouTube content lately, and one of the YouTube
Speaker 1: channels I love is called for Harriet, which features the
Speaker 1: cultural commentary, interviews, and nuanced critical perspectives of Kimberly Foster,
Speaker 1: who centers the experiences of black women. Kimberly Foster is
Speaker 1: a writer, cultural critic, and media contributor. She's also the
Speaker 1: founder and editor in chief for Harriet, a multi platform
Speaker 1: digital community, as well as a national live events series
Speaker 1: recognized the leading voice online by teen Vogue and Huffington Post.
Speaker 1: Kimberly's video commentaries on current events have accumulated millions of
Speaker 1: views and appeared on owns, black women own the conversation.
Speaker 1: She always has her finger on the pulse because she
Speaker 1: is part of the pulse. Honey. Kimberly made a video
Speaker 1: about beauty as a commodity that illuminated some of the
Speaker 1: thoughts I already had about the subject and made me
Speaker 1: think about so many other things. On today's episode, we're
Speaker 1: going to be talking to the outspoken feminist and founder
Speaker 1: about beauty as capital. I find her so inspiring and smart,
Speaker 1: and she always makes me think about something I hadn't
Speaker 1: considered before. Please enjoy my conversation with Kimberly Foster. Hello,
Speaker 1: kim really, welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling today?
Speaker 1: I am great? First of all, thanks so much for
Speaker 1: the invitation. I said I'm great, But that's always a lie,
Speaker 1: right like in COVID times. That's not real. But I'm okay.
Speaker 1: I am good. I really value the fact that I
Speaker 1: have a job and I am not sick and my
Speaker 1: family is not sick. But every once in a while
Speaker 1: I get a little set because life is going by
Speaker 1: and I can't do the stuff I want to do.
Speaker 1: But it's it's okay. I'm okay. I follow your channel,
Speaker 1: your YouTube, channel. That's how it became aware of you
Speaker 1: and love it, and now I follow you on Instagram,
Speaker 1: et cetera. You've been so prolific during quarantine. From my view,
Speaker 1: I feel like you're constantly putting out videos talking about
Speaker 1: what's going on in the world right now, and for
Speaker 1: me that it takes a toll, especially when we're talking
Speaker 1: about things like racial justice and imprisoned, that abolition and
Speaker 1: all they really intense, complicated things that you talk about
Speaker 1: on your channel. Is that taking a toll on you emotionally?
Speaker 1: How do you balance putting out content that is really
Speaker 1: intense with like your I guess self care. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: for the first six months of Quarantine, I was super prolific.
Speaker 1: I was on it, and I know that I have
Speaker 1: a cycle of using work to evade dealing with my emotions.
Speaker 1: That's like a long running theme in my life. And
Speaker 1: so I absolutely was diving head first into making stuff.
Speaker 1: And people are at home, so they're gonna click and
Speaker 1: watch and don't throw away your shot. Get in fun people,
Speaker 1: And honestly that has paid off in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: But over the past couple of months, I have really
Speaker 1: been feeling it like I'm not doing as much as
Speaker 1: I need to be doing, and I'm letting myself down.
Speaker 1: And I built this community and they expect things that
Speaker 1: I'm not delivering. I definitely feel that right now that
Speaker 1: has taken a huge emotional toll on me. And then
Speaker 1: I do feel like I have a little bit of
Speaker 1: seasonal effective disorder. I'm just hearing that and I'm taking
Speaker 1: it in and I'm reminded of this phrase that I
Speaker 1: learned years ago, I forget where, and the phrase is
Speaker 1: I am enough. I have enough and I do enough.
Speaker 1: And I've had so many moments over the years where
Speaker 1: it's like I need to be doing more. I am
Speaker 1: not successful enough, I'm letting people down. I need to
Speaker 1: just keep going. And I know that it's not really
Speaker 1: working for me anymore. That I that just going going doing.
Speaker 1: It's not the best for my mental health physical health.
Speaker 1: So I have to slim myself down. Is where I'm
Speaker 1: at with all that. Yeah, yeah, I think it's really
Speaker 1: difficult as a creator. I mean, because of the rhythms
Speaker 1: of the Internet, we are used to being in constant
Speaker 1: consumption mode. So what's the new thing, new TikTok, new
Speaker 1: Instagram post, new tweeks, you know, and because I recognize
Speaker 1: that is the expect patient, I do internalize that I
Speaker 1: do want to be great at my job. I don't
Speaker 1: want to be good at my job. I want to
Speaker 1: be great. I want to believe a legacy. I want
Speaker 1: to be exceptional. And I understand that people are turning
Speaker 1: to me to maybe say things that they might not
Speaker 1: have the words for, and I want to deliver that
Speaker 1: for them. But I also do want to be gentle
Speaker 1: with myself. I do want to extend myself the kind
Speaker 1: of grace that I make it a point to extend
Speaker 1: to other people. Yeah, what I've come to understand is
Speaker 1: that I'm not going to be of use to anyone
Speaker 1: if I'm physically, emotionally, psychologically depleted. That I must put
Speaker 1: the life mask on myself first, and if it's not on,
Speaker 1: then I'm not really going to be able to really
Speaker 1: be of service in the way that I want to be.
Speaker 1: Absolutely Yeah, I think it's always important to put that
Speaker 1: out into the world. I know I can't hear it
Speaker 1: enough for the folks who don't know you and your work.
Speaker 1: Can you tell them about what for Harry it is
Speaker 1: and how it all began. Absolutely so, I started for
Speaker 1: it as a blog from my college dorm room a
Speaker 1: decade ago, which sounds crazy. It is crazy that I'm
Speaker 1: in my thirties right now, but let's not talk about that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I decided that I wanted to create a
Speaker 1: space where I could have really thoughtful, intergenerational conversations about
Speaker 1: black womanhood and black feminism in particular. I have really
Speaker 1: a dedicated set of politics that I'm really committed to.
Speaker 1: I wanted to have those progressive conversations in interesting and
Speaker 1: innovative ways. And eventually it evolved from just being blogging
Speaker 1: just written posts, to me making videos, and the YouTube
Speaker 1: channel has really blown up over the past two years
Speaker 1: eighteen months. The title for Harriet and you talked about
Speaker 1: it being about black women, black women feminism. Why Harriet?
Speaker 1: I just I think I know why? Um, but everyone sure?
Speaker 1: So I founded the site on the day before June tenth,
Speaker 1: and it's named for Harriet because of Harriet Tubman. I
Speaker 1: always want to embody a liberatory politic. I want to
Speaker 1: take risks. I don't want to be worried about what's popular,
Speaker 1: and I feel like if there is a guiding light
Speaker 1: or shining star, then it's absolutely for me going to
Speaker 1: be a Harriet Tubman. Oh that's so beautiful. That's so beautiful. Um.
Speaker 1: I love the way in which you talk about pop
Speaker 1: culture and use pop culture as a way to critically
Speaker 1: analyze systemic you know, structures like racism, sexism, et cetera.
Speaker 1: And clearly watching your videos, I'm like, this woman has
Speaker 1: read her bell Hooks. I'm a bell Hooks stand lover.
Speaker 1: Do not get me started. The way the way you
Speaker 1: talk about so many things, it's like a nuanced understanding
Speaker 1: of Hooks that I feel like a lot of people
Speaker 1: don't haven't really done that work with and it's it
Speaker 1: really writing for me. And I just think bell Hooks
Speaker 1: is so crucial, so crucial in so many different ways,
Speaker 1: and so pop culture is the only thing you talk about.
Speaker 1: But there's so many moments with pop culture that you
Speaker 1: use this teachable moments. Why do you do that? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So I Number one, I'm obsessed with pop culture. From
Speaker 1: the time I was a little kid, was obsessed with movies,
Speaker 1: and I was obsessed with the Internet and music and
Speaker 1: read all the magazines and all that like. But as
Speaker 1: I got older and my politics evolved, I recognized that
Speaker 1: this stuff that I was consuming and internalizing. It's not harmless,
Speaker 1: it's not a political There's so much stuff in there
Speaker 1: that when you really dig into it, it connects to
Speaker 1: all of these superstructures. It connects to feminism, it connects
Speaker 1: to social justice. And when I decided that I wanted
Speaker 1: to start creating content, I understood that I have all
Speaker 1: of these deep political commitments. And sometimes it's really heavy
Speaker 1: and people are like, you're using the jargon, what are
Speaker 1: you talking about? And so using pop culture as an
Speaker 1: entry way to get to those really deep sometimes heavy
Speaker 1: conversations makes it accessible to folks who are outside of
Speaker 1: the academy or who are not reading bell Hooks all
Speaker 1: the time, who are not reading Patricia Hill Collins, Right,
Speaker 1: you know it's the hook Well, bell Hooks is really
Speaker 1: interesting in being accessible as well, right, she wrote in
Speaker 1: a very specific way, so that people can access the
Speaker 1: information even though she is an academic. That's lineups as
Speaker 1: with her, Like, I feel like I referenced bell Hooks
Speaker 1: all the time, because it's easy to feel like we
Speaker 1: on YouTube who do this commentary stuff, like we're the
Speaker 1: first people to do it, or we're innovating, like no,
Speaker 1: like we are building on a foundation that has already
Speaker 1: been set, and I think it's really important for us
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that, like somebody like Bell Hooks, Black Looks,
Speaker 1: come on, Okay, Like Black Looks is the first Bell
Speaker 1: Hooks book I read, and it changed my life in
Speaker 1: a very substantial way. And you know, I have traveled
Speaker 1: the country doing college lectures and people would stand up
Speaker 1: with these critiques of feminism and say white feminism ists
Speaker 1: and white feminism, and I'm just excuse me. The way
Speaker 1: I came to feminism was through people like Bell Hooks
Speaker 1: and people like Audrey Lord. And it just it pisces
Speaker 1: me off, if I'm being honest, when feminism is always
Speaker 1: reduced to this this white feminism that like just totally
Speaker 1: erases like centuries of work that black women have been doing,
Speaker 1: that it's always been intersectional. Yes, it's deeply, deeply upsetting.
Speaker 1: I mean it's especially upsetting when you think of the
Speaker 1: work that those women did to make themselves known, to produce.
Speaker 1: I mean, they had to found their own presses and
Speaker 1: they booked their own speaking tours and like, but against
Speaker 1: the white women, like, do not dismiss that, Like it's
Speaker 1: it's really deep, it's really really deep. The main reason
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you is because of this
Speaker 1: specific post where you talked about beauty being a really
Speaker 1: bad investment. And I think it hit me in such
Speaker 1: an intense way because it was something that I understood
Speaker 1: intellectually and in my gut, but I never really heard
Speaker 1: someone put it into words, specifically the way that you
Speaker 1: did around beauty as a commodity, beauty and capitalism. Um.
Speaker 1: For me, I'm in this space as a black trans
Speaker 1: woman who was an actress, and you know, I'm walked runways,
Speaker 1: and I'm forty eight years old, and I'm sort of
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways just getting started in my career,
Speaker 1: and I'm in this anxiety around aging out. You know,
Speaker 1: it's just really deep and it's complicated, and can you
Speaker 1: talk to me a little bit about where your thoughts.
Speaker 1: Beauty is a commodity and and all of that come from. Sure.
Speaker 1: So I love to talk about beauty because a lot
Speaker 1: of the conversations that I hear about it are just
Speaker 1: really silly and disingenuous. You know a lot of that stuff.
Speaker 1: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and you
Speaker 1: just have to love yourself. No, when I'm talking about beauty,
Speaker 1: I am talking about beauty as a form of structural inequality.
Speaker 1: We have all of these hierarchies in the world, class, race, gender,
Speaker 1: but we don't often talk about beauty as a way
Speaker 1: that many people and women in particular, are exceptionally marginalized,
Speaker 1: and we are expected to invest deeply in the pursuit
Speaker 1: of beauty. If we don't naturally have what is deemed beautiful,
Speaker 1: we are expected to spend all of our time and
Speaker 1: all of our money chasing it. Right And if you
Speaker 1: are not able to chase it, if you are not
Speaker 1: able to acquire it, you're a failed woman. If you
Speaker 1: don't have it, then you can just expect to be
Speaker 1: on the margins. You can expect for people to not
Speaker 1: hire you, You can expect to not be picked if
Speaker 1: you desire a partner. Right Like, they are all of
Speaker 1: these things that we just accept as natural, normal and inevitable,
Speaker 1: but they're not right like, They're reinforced structurally all around
Speaker 1: us all the time, and a lot of us are
Speaker 1: participating in that. The first time I heard the phrase
Speaker 1: pretty pretty vilege, Janet Mock, the writer now director, producer,
Speaker 1: used the term to talk about her pretty privileged as
Speaker 1: a black trans woman who was often assumed to be
Speaker 1: SIS gender and it was really intense for me and
Speaker 1: really important to hear someone say that, because I find
Speaker 1: it's really rare and open. Her interview with her for
Speaker 1: Super Soul Sunday, Oprah was like, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for saying pretty privileged, because she was like, I talked
Speaker 1: to so many beautiful women who don't seem to acknowledge
Speaker 1: that that's a thing, that don't seem to acknowledge that
Speaker 1: there are privileges that come with being considered beautiful, and
Speaker 1: we should say being as very beautiful within I would
Speaker 1: say SIS normative white supremacists, sort of patriarchal standards, right,
Speaker 1: and so the the hierarchy, the inequality that comes with
Speaker 1: that is really really deep. And as a trans woman,
Speaker 1: I'm keenly aware too of the ways in which I'm evaluated,
Speaker 1: right in terms of my femininity since I started my
Speaker 1: medical transition twenty two years ago, in the ways in
Speaker 1: which I'm sort of evaluated and expected to embody femininity
Speaker 1: that are often deeply problematic. Remember when I was on
Speaker 1: the cover of Time magazine and there were all of
Speaker 1: these older, white late transitioning trans women who were so
Speaker 1: upset that I all of a sudden with the face
Speaker 1: of the trans community because I was dropped dead Gortis
Speaker 1: in their in their eyes, and I was like, when
Speaker 1: did I become When did I become dropped dead Gorgias.
Speaker 1: I was like when, Because in my estimation, I was
Speaker 1: always that trans woman who wasn't quote unquote possible enough.
Speaker 1: I would go to trans parties and other trans women
Speaker 1: would tell me how much surgery I needed to be
Speaker 1: more possible. And that is really problematic language. I'm using
Speaker 1: you to shorthand when I say passing. So I just
Speaker 1: think about those experiences in the context of this conversation.
Speaker 1: So something that I always have to underscore is when
Speaker 1: I am laying out these theories about beauty as a commodity,
Speaker 1: about beauty as the primary form of capital and thus
Speaker 1: access to power that most women and have access to.
Speaker 1: I am not doing it in a judgmental way. I
Speaker 1: understand that we are all operating in these really coercive systems,
Speaker 1: like there are incredible consequences if you opt out. You
Speaker 1: want to get hired, you want to eat, you want
Speaker 1: to have access to healthcare and stable housing. If you're
Speaker 1: a woman, you're probably gonna do what you have to do.
Speaker 1: And that means for a lot of us that we're
Speaker 1: going to participate in the system and get our hair
Speaker 1: done and put on makeup. And I know that I
Speaker 1: was always as a kid encouraged because I'm a black
Speaker 1: girl at a brown skin, kinky hair and all that
Speaker 1: be feminine, put on the dress where the heels right,
Speaker 1: to try to offset all of the stereotypes, the historical
Speaker 1: baggage that my body contains as I moved through the world.
Speaker 1: And so I understand the critiques right of saying, oh,
Speaker 1: it really sucks that this is the kind of normative womanhood, right,
Speaker 1: or like the kind of performance of femininity or gender
Speaker 1: that is most celebrated and most visible. I just think
Speaker 1: that often when we are trying to say you, she's
Speaker 1: too pretty, and like, you know, I think Beyonce gets
Speaker 1: this a lot right in the Beyonce thing. It's complicated.
Speaker 1: It's complicated. I have feelings about it. But I do
Speaker 1: think that if we are going to love those kinds
Speaker 1: of critiques, we do also have to grapple with the reality. Right.
Speaker 1: We have to understand that, you know, white supremacist society,
Speaker 1: you have to play certain kinds of games and to
Speaker 1: varying degrees. We're all playing, but like not playing means
Speaker 1: that you're gonna be sideline, you're gonna be marginalized, you
Speaker 1: might not be able to eight. So I just think
Speaker 1: that like the nuance is really important. Absolutely absolutely Wow.
Speaker 1: Bellhook Star said that we're all living in contradiction when
Speaker 1: it comes to particularly the capitalist part of what is
Speaker 1: required to survive, and so we have to just be
Speaker 1: in the truth of that and and not go into
Speaker 1: this uncritically. And I think that's the reality for me
Speaker 1: that I'm very keenly aware. It's very tricky and it's
Speaker 1: really complicated trying to maintain authenticity and integrity in these
Speaker 1: systems where I'm also trying to survive and hopefully create
Speaker 1: space for other people do exist as well. Oh honey,
Speaker 1: how's that for a little truth after a tiny little break,
Speaker 1: We've got so much more for you, alrighty, then let's
Speaker 1: just dive right back in. They are these channels that
Speaker 1: really target darker skin black women around being feminine. Right,
Speaker 1: there's this sort of pushed to be like more feminine,
Speaker 1: and there's a suggestion that like darker skinned women are
Speaker 1: not portrayed femininely enough in the media. Do you have
Speaker 1: thoughts about that, because this is a really interesting I'm
Speaker 1: sure you do. Yeah, oh my, yeah, I have thoughts
Speaker 1: about that. So I understand what motivates those channels. Life
Speaker 1: is really hard. If you're a black woman, it's super hard.
Speaker 1: If your dark skin, it's super hard. If you have
Speaker 1: broad features, if you have kinky hair, And so what
Speaker 1: can we do to ameliorate some of that violence? What
Speaker 1: can we do to stop it? Right? And so, if
Speaker 1: wearing the dress is gonna stop it, let's wear the dress.
Speaker 1: If wearing the heels is gonna stop it, if talking
Speaker 1: in the high voice is gonna stop it, let's do
Speaker 1: that stuff. The problem is that doesn't really work. It
Speaker 1: might work sometimes, but it's not going to work all
Speaker 1: the time. And so what are you gonna do when
Speaker 1: those kinds of performances fail you. My problem is that
Speaker 1: a lot of those spaces and those channels aren't really
Speaker 1: dealing with the reality of we're not treated poorly because
Speaker 1: we don't put on dresses. That's not it, right, Like
Speaker 1: an enslavement, when our fore mothers, our ancestors were being
Speaker 1: brutalized and raped, it wasn't because they weren't putting on dresses. Contemporarily,
Speaker 1: when black women who are birthing black people, when their
Speaker 1: doctors ignore their pain and allow their babies to die, like,
Speaker 1: it's not because you're not wearing dresses, it's because we're
Speaker 1: navigating white supremacist capitalist patriarchy in which our beings are
Speaker 1: not valuable, and there is no performance of femininity that's
Speaker 1: going to be able to undo that. The only thing
Speaker 1: that's really going to be able to undo that is
Speaker 1: if we tip away and ultimately dismantle those structures. And
Speaker 1: when and when I hear that and what I just
Speaker 1: came up from me and what everything you said is
Speaker 1: the deep pain underneath all of the sort of brutal
Speaker 1: nature of the ways in which imperialist, wide supremacist, capitalist
Speaker 1: patriarch is played out in the lives of black women specifically.
Speaker 1: So it's like, what can we do to lessen the pain?
Speaker 1: Then the trauma attached to all of that without a
Speaker 1: critique of this system right probably places the problem with
Speaker 1: a black women that like, our marginalization is our fault
Speaker 1: when we'd say that we need to be more feminine,
Speaker 1: and it sort of absolves the system of any responsibility.
Speaker 1: And this is actually not it's not empowering, it's something
Speaker 1: that you can aedge out of. It's something that you
Speaker 1: you may still not be ait enough for someone. Right,
Speaker 1: as much as I have in so many ways performed
Speaker 1: a traditional kind of femininity in my life as a
Speaker 1: trans woman, I'm not feminine enough for some people. I'll
Speaker 1: never be a voice. I'm still really tall. Like, there's
Speaker 1: just ways in which I fall short. You know. I
Speaker 1: started the hashtag trans as Beautiful as a way to
Speaker 1: sort of reckon with that, But like, there has to
Speaker 1: be another way. There has to be another lens, another
Speaker 1: gaze that we can engage with. I think feeling beautiful
Speaker 1: is something that is actually really important I think for
Speaker 1: us to have on an individual level. And I guess
Speaker 1: with the proliferation of more plus size models, with more models,
Speaker 1: you know, with disabilities and darker skin models, and is
Speaker 1: there a way that beauty as capital can sort of
Speaker 1: be revisioned away from those gazes that are problematic? Or
Speaker 1: if we are making beauty a commodity, even if they're
Speaker 1: different bodies and skin tones, are we still replicating the
Speaker 1: same system. You know, this is something that I really
Speaker 1: struggle with because I spend so much time on the Internet.
Speaker 1: I spend so much time on social media, and I
Speaker 1: recognize that there are so many women who are able
Speaker 1: to find body positive Instagram pages or let's celebrate dark
Speaker 1: skin Instagram pages, or even I follow up a young
Speaker 1: girl who says, my acne is beautiful, and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: I wish I had this when I was thirteen. Right,
Speaker 1: So I get that it is important for you to
Speaker 1: be able, for us all to be able to see
Speaker 1: ourselves and feel affirmed and validated and good in our bodies.
Speaker 1: I have trouble with this idea because I do feel
Speaker 1: like a lot of it goes back to this thing
Speaker 1: of we're afraid to be ugly. We don't want to
Speaker 1: feel ugly, we don't want other people to call us ugly.
Speaker 1: Can we pause for a second when you said we're
Speaker 1: afraid to be ugly and I don't for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: that hit me in my gut. Can you. I don't
Speaker 1: want to stop your thoughts, but can you unpack that
Speaker 1: a little bit what that means for you. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: in our quests to redefine beauty ideals, to expand the
Speaker 1: definition of beauty, we want to pull more and more
Speaker 1: people in because we want everybody to feel good. That's
Speaker 1: a that's a worthy goal, I understand. But then the
Speaker 1: flip side is everybody can't be in the bubble of beauty,
Speaker 1: right Like we're trying to expand and rethink and reimagine,
Speaker 1: but ultimately we're still setting boundaries. Were just setting boundaries
Speaker 1: different places depending on who we are or how we
Speaker 1: feel we're affected by the standard, or where we live
Speaker 1: or what day of the week it is, And so
Speaker 1: there are always going to be people left on the outside.
Speaker 1: And what about those people? I don't think that in
Speaker 1: our quest to do all of the stuff, which again
Speaker 1: I get it, but we're still not extending the care
Speaker 1: that we need to the people who are always going
Speaker 1: to be left out, who are always going to be
Speaker 1: quote unquote ugly. When I'm thinking about what do I
Speaker 1: want an ideal society to be, what I would want
Speaker 1: is even those people who don't fit any beauty ideal,
Speaker 1: any standard, right that you can have access to the
Speaker 1: care that you need, that you can have access to safety,
Speaker 1: that you don't have to spend your life on the
Speaker 1: treadmill of self doubt and anxiety and worry. And that's
Speaker 1: only gonna happen if we dismantle that stuff like I
Speaker 1: don't want to be I have to be the feminist
Speaker 1: skill joy all the time and the Debbie Downer. But like, yeah,
Speaker 1: every time you erect a new boundary, it's keeping people out,
Speaker 1: and I just think it's important for us to underscore that.
Speaker 1: I think about the capitalist piece of all of it, right,
Speaker 1: I think for for a brand, it's like, oh, we
Speaker 1: can bring a lot more people, and we have more customers,
Speaker 1: and we have more people who feel seen and included
Speaker 1: in so we can sell more product. And so I
Speaker 1: think for in terms of a business model, it's great
Speaker 1: to be inclusive. But that's a very Western value, the
Speaker 1: right to be a consumer, right, Like I want to
Speaker 1: be in on that right. Like when we are compelling
Speaker 1: these fashion houses to to put plus size models on
Speaker 1: the runway, it is about you don't want my business,
Speaker 1: you don't want me to be able to buy your fire,
Speaker 1: And it's like, oh, maybe we should question that desire. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: some designers, I mean the late great Carlographel, I think
Speaker 1: he literally said he didn't want women of certain sizes
Speaker 1: wearing his clothes. And as an actress who has never
Speaker 1: been a sample size, there are a lot of designers
Speaker 1: that I've just never worn and probably never will wear
Speaker 1: because I just I'm not the right size. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, but again it goes back to the hierarchy thing.
Speaker 1: But also as a black woman, we are taught to
Speaker 1: view that rejection as a personal affront, like, how dare
Speaker 1: you deny me the right to build my worth off
Speaker 1: of what I can acquire. You're intentionally keeping me out.
Speaker 1: That's anti American, you know. So I just think I
Speaker 1: just want to I want people to interrogate just a
Speaker 1: little bit. I think it's really really tricky right to
Speaker 1: not be dismissed when you have an opinion that it's
Speaker 1: outside of the status quo. To not be positioned, it's
Speaker 1: just crazy radical who needs to be silenced. And I think,
Speaker 1: like for me, when I think about critics of capitalists,
Speaker 1: I think about critiques of predatory capitalism, right, and the
Speaker 1: ways in which capitalism historically has preyed on certain people
Speaker 1: and bodies, and that capitalism has already been predatory historically,
Speaker 1: like just looking at the truth of how it functions.
Speaker 1: And I say, this is someone who engages in capitalism,
Speaker 1: is someone who wants to make money. You know who
Speaker 1: I've been for most of my life, and that was
Speaker 1: not cute, Like not knowing if if I'd be able
Speaker 1: to pay the rent, not being able to go to
Speaker 1: the dentist or go to the doctor, and all the
Speaker 1: things that like you experience when you're poor. It's really
Speaker 1: really not cute. Yeah, again, I think that I love this.
Speaker 1: I think that this nuance is important because I understand
Speaker 1: the fundamental exploitation that capitalism requires, but I also recognize
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to be my own safety net, and
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna have to make financial decisions so that
Speaker 1: I can go to the doctor when I'm in my
Speaker 1: sixties and seventies and eighties, so that I don't have
Speaker 1: to rely on my nieces because I don't really plan
Speaker 1: on having children, because if I don't make those plans
Speaker 1: that are unfortunately invested in this capitalist culture, that they're
Speaker 1: going to suffer. The people who love me and who
Speaker 1: are still around, then I'm going to be a drain
Speaker 1: on them and their children. So living in this society
Speaker 1: it forces you you can't again with all of these
Speaker 1: hierarchies opting outcomes with enormous consequences, not just for you,
Speaker 1: for anybody in your community for your family, for the
Speaker 1: people who love and care for you, and so those
Speaker 1: are the things that are always in our minds. This
Speaker 1: reminds me of something you said in the video about
Speaker 1: beauty being a bad investment, and it was really deep
Speaker 1: for me as someone who thinking about aging and desirability.
Speaker 1: And I think so much of like beauty is also
Speaker 1: tied to whether or not you get loved. And I
Speaker 1: think the tricky thing about being a woman who is
Speaker 1: attracted to men and who dates men is that space
Speaker 1: of wanting to be found desirable, because I think we
Speaker 1: all need love, we all need to be cared for
Speaker 1: and seeing is worthy of love, and so many of
Speaker 1: these sort of beauty standards and the ages and that
Speaker 1: is so attached to that. I think that becomes a
Speaker 1: tricky thing about being a feminist, And the tricky thing
Speaker 1: about being a feminist who is attracted to men and
Speaker 1: wants to be in a relationship with them navigating that
Speaker 1: you know what, I coined this phrase. Have you heard
Speaker 1: the term pick me before? I have heard you say it? Yes,
Speaker 1: So I say all the time that so many of
Speaker 1: us are feminists in the streets and pick mes in
Speaker 1: the sheets because we have these politics and we're vocal
Speaker 1: in public, and we understand what's right is right and
Speaker 1: inequality is wrong, and we stand up. But when it
Speaker 1: comes time to be partnered, when it comes time to
Speaker 1: cuddle up, maybe you're getting with a man who don't
Speaker 1: quite have the politics that you need to have. Maybe
Speaker 1: you are accepting a kind of treatment that you understand
Speaker 1: is fundamentally unequal, is unjust. Maybe you're reproducing some inequality
Speaker 1: in your home, you know, just to keep the peace right,
Speaker 1: because that desire to be loved and care for and
Speaker 1: honestly have sex. That's it's so natural and normal and
Speaker 1: foundational to who we are as beings, as women, that
Speaker 1: we're all making some concessions, you know, like we're all
Speaker 1: doing it. And I think, as a feminist woman who
Speaker 1: does partner men, what I've had to say to myself is, Okay,
Speaker 1: what are you willing to give up? What are you
Speaker 1: willing to deal with? How are you gonna address it?
Speaker 1: You know when the stuff comes up, because inevitably the
Speaker 1: stuff comes up? Right? And also, are you okay being alone?
Speaker 1: Are you okay saying I'm not gonna participate in this,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna deal with the aunts phobia or the
Speaker 1: homophobia just because Okay, I'm not gonna get explicit, but
Speaker 1: just because you're cute, Like I'm not going I'm not
Speaker 1: going to know what you're gonna say, yes girl, and
Speaker 1: right right hang yeah, But like but it's like, where
Speaker 1: does my integrity lie? Because maybe I could deal with
Speaker 1: that stuff and nobody would ever know, nobody would ever
Speaker 1: see it. But does it matter to me that I'm
Speaker 1: I'm aligning myself with this person who I know has
Speaker 1: nasty politics. It does matter to me, And that means
Speaker 1: sometimes you're not always gonna be able to get picked.
Speaker 1: I was having a conversation with my girlfriends about how
Speaker 1: hard it is to just find someone who can lay
Speaker 1: it down the way it needs to be laid down
Speaker 1: when it comes to just to the physical part, and
Speaker 1: that he's going to be respectful enough that I can
Speaker 1: like deal And so I'm like, just the respect, the attraction,
Speaker 1: the chemistry, those things are really hard to find. So
Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, I may need to compromise on some
Speaker 1: of these other things, and SE's some really clear boundaries, right,
Speaker 1: So I think for me at this point in my life,
Speaker 1: it's okay because I'm like hanging out with this dude
Speaker 1: now who has politics that are very different from mine.
Speaker 1: There have been some conversations that I'm like, Okay, I
Speaker 1: don't agree with this, and we've talked about it very respectfully.
Speaker 1: That when I actually do believe, and I preached publicly
Speaker 1: that it's important to be able to have conversations across
Speaker 1: your friends and to be able to be in relationship
Speaker 1: with people who we don't agree with in a respectful,
Speaker 1: loving way. And I don't feel unsafe and I don't
Speaker 1: feel compromised. My mother always says, if you're with a man,
Speaker 1: you're putting up with some ship. So what exactly are
Speaker 1: we willing to put up with? And what are we
Speaker 1: not willing to put up with? But that is it? Right? Like,
Speaker 1: I recognize that we are all humans and messy and
Speaker 1: a lot of times men, and since men in particular,
Speaker 1: they're behind, you know. And so if I do desire
Speaker 1: to be partnered, if I do desire love and affection
Speaker 1: and care, I'm probably gonna be dealing with somebody who
Speaker 1: it's not where I think they should be. And so
Speaker 1: how much time am I going to be willing to
Speaker 1: invest in trying to get them where they need to be?
Speaker 1: Are they open to my ideas like that now factors? Okay,
Speaker 1: maybe you're not there, but are you open to having
Speaker 1: a conversation? Are you going to listen to me? Honestly?
Speaker 1: But I don't believe that you can get into a
Speaker 1: relationship with anybody and change them. People change if they
Speaker 1: want to change, but I cannot change somebody. So when
Speaker 1: I think about that in terms of someone's politics, I
Speaker 1: don't like assume that I can change them in that
Speaker 1: realm either. So are you talking about, like, you know,
Speaker 1: are their political fixed or upper because I don't know
Speaker 1: if that's really I don't know if that's a thing.
Speaker 1: I think that's a good point. No, you can't expect
Speaker 1: people to change. But I do enter all of my relationships, romantic, familial,
Speaker 1: friendly with the idea that everybody is capable of change.
Speaker 1: So I know that I have been transformed because of
Speaker 1: my connection with folks, and I know it is possible
Speaker 1: that my connection to those people can have a similar
Speaker 1: kind of effect. But I also am with you. You
Speaker 1: cannot enter a relationship with the expectation that in six
Speaker 1: months they're going to be reading belt hooks Like it's
Speaker 1: just not realistic. And I think too what I found
Speaker 1: in my life just living my life is an openly transperson.
Speaker 1: Is that like, it's not always even about talking about
Speaker 1: gender or whatever with people, but just living my life
Speaker 1: and being myself as authentically as I can be. Connect
Speaker 1: you up is my full authentic self and be accepted
Speaker 1: and not be rejected or shut down or or subjected
Speaker 1: to conversations or viewpoints that I find violent or offensive
Speaker 1: or whatever. Yeah, and I am so with you too.
Speaker 1: Everybody in my life does not have perfect politics. Family,
Speaker 1: people that I've dated, friends, what I would deem perfect politics.
Speaker 1: I know that this is sect does it even exist? Right? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So that's not a That's not a deal breaker for me.
Speaker 1: It's just not I don't think that's hut. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: gotta take a teensy break here, but I'll be fast.
Speaker 1: That wasn't so bad, now, wasn't Okay, Let's get back
Speaker 1: to it, speaking as partnered and being partnered. There was
Speaker 1: a video that you did about the rap song Whop.
Speaker 1: I think you've titled the Spectacle of Sexual Liberation. I
Speaker 1: think something like that, And what I loved about it
Speaker 1: is that they're talking about the spectacle of it. I
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, this is it. It felt very hooksing
Speaker 1: into me to sort of talk about the spectacle. But
Speaker 1: oh I love that. Oh yes, yes, thank you so much. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: to talk about the spectacle at all, but I think
Speaker 1: that it's a really interesting way to ground and frame
Speaker 1: the conversation around sort of sexual liberation and the idea
Speaker 1: of sexual liberation. And I love how much you talk
Speaker 1: about music in the music industry. Can you talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about some of your thoughts on what you
Speaker 1: call the spectacle of sexual liberation when it comes to
Speaker 1: particularly Black women's sexuality and music. Yeah, So my concern
Speaker 1: is that we have put so much emphasis on the
Speaker 1: display of a liberated sexuality, meaning liberated Black women's bodies
Speaker 1: look like this, and they do this, and they wear that,
Speaker 1: and and she's wearing no clothes because she is liberated.
Speaker 1: And if you question it, you are questioning her liberation.
Speaker 1: And I just think that we should question that framing
Speaker 1: the expectation that they will show up in that way.
Speaker 1: The expectation is that they will perform their sexuality in
Speaker 1: that way. In fact, there isn't really a lot of
Speaker 1: space for women rappers, women in hip hop, women in
Speaker 1: R and B to do anything other than that, and
Speaker 1: why aren't we critiquing that lack of space. Why aren't
Speaker 1: we critiquing the fact that so many Black women are
Speaker 1: siloed into a singular kind of perform Harman's If we
Speaker 1: are really invested in sexuality, we should be invested in
Speaker 1: the idea that liberated bodies, that sexual bodies look and
Speaker 1: move all kinds of ways, that it can feel different
Speaker 1: for all kinds of people. Like I think that our
Speaker 1: ability to imagine and innovate and think outside of the
Speaker 1: box is dampened because we are socialized in a certain way,
Speaker 1: and it is incumbent upon us who are deeply invested,
Speaker 1: truly in the liberation of black women's sexuality and the
Speaker 1: liberation of black women's body, so that we can exist
Speaker 1: outside of these boxes, to just question, right like, why
Speaker 1: is that the thing that we always go to? Why
Speaker 1: is that the thing that we deem the sexiest? And
Speaker 1: we should also think about I'm always interested in consequences.
Speaker 1: We should think about what happens if you choose to
Speaker 1: step outside of that. Are you gonna be able to
Speaker 1: get worldwide fame? Probably not. Are you gonna be able
Speaker 1: to sell a whole bunch of bread words? Probably? Not
Speaker 1: right because it's again market places and desirability and higher
Speaker 1: warchies and all of that. And if we are not
Speaker 1: invested in just questioning that stuff, like again, we are
Speaker 1: saying that we are okay with honestly the vast majority
Speaker 1: of women, the vast majority of black women being left out.
Speaker 1: Cardi b There was one moment that I think a
Speaker 1: lot of black male rappers were sort of critiquing Cardi
Speaker 1: and Nicky and other women who talk about sex a lot,
Speaker 1: and they were critiquing in and Cardi came out in
Speaker 1: a very Cardi way and said, well, you know, I
Speaker 1: put out this song and I was talking about this
Speaker 1: and it wasn't about my vagina and sexuality, and people
Speaker 1: weren't checking for it. So it becomes this whole thing
Speaker 1: of you know, the consumer and what it's a consumer want.
Speaker 1: You talked about on one of your channels. You looked
Speaker 1: at what songs were in the top one hundred by
Speaker 1: black women, and most of them had to do with sexuality.
Speaker 1: And so there was something about the market, right, thinking
Speaker 1: about the market, what people are responding to and not
Speaker 1: responding to. So what is our responsibility as consumers if
Speaker 1: we're coming back to this capitalist model again around empowering
Speaker 1: different kinds of content. Yeah, you know, that's just what
Speaker 1: they like. Don't be mad at her. But it's like,
Speaker 1: these are really smart businesswomen. These women understand the marketplace.
Speaker 1: They have huge machines behind them that are doing all
Speaker 1: the testing and here's where you're going to get the
Speaker 1: sales and all of that, and the streams and all
Speaker 1: of that. This is ultimately, for them about a profit
Speaker 1: making endeavor, and so we should consume it and view
Speaker 1: it as a profit making endeavor where these women do
Speaker 1: have the opportunity to play in a way that is
Speaker 1: stimulating and fun. But like they're trying to get bags,
Speaker 1: you know, they're trying to get money. You're referencing Cardi
Speaker 1: talking about her song Be Careful, which is like a
Speaker 1: slower kind of song and it is about her husband
Speaker 1: cheating on her and all of that, and that was
Speaker 1: a cute song, and we don't want that from Cardi.
Speaker 1: We have said, Cardi, you are this, so be that right.
Speaker 1: And so I do talk about all the time the
Speaker 1: kinds of coercion that's involved. And yes, these women are choosing.
Speaker 1: Cardi chose to be a rapper, Meg chooses to be
Speaker 1: a rapper, they maybe have a hand in choosing the singles,
Speaker 1: But the coercion part is what are we responding to,
Speaker 1: what are we streaming, what are we buying? What gets
Speaker 1: them on the covers of magazines? And it is again
Speaker 1: that narrow kind of performance. So, as a black woman
Speaker 1: who desires to see all kinds of bodies and all
Speaker 1: kinds of performances and explorations, and I want black women
Speaker 1: to have the space to innovate, I have to think
Speaker 1: about where I spend my money, but also where I
Speaker 1: focus my attention because in this economy, right in the
Speaker 1: social media economy, attention is super super valuable. So who
Speaker 1: am I following? Who am I subscribing to on Patreon?
Speaker 1: Am I buying their books? And all of that? Right,
Speaker 1: that is the way that I can't push back against
Speaker 1: all of these struck sures. And again we can't do
Speaker 1: individual solutions to structural problems. But I feel good in
Speaker 1: saying this is where I'm going to spend my time,
Speaker 1: this is where I'm going to invest. And I will
Speaker 1: say that we are so focused I think in our
Speaker 1: conversations about sexuality on the external, how are we externalizing liberation?
Speaker 1: It looks like this, it, it wears, this and all
Speaker 1: of that. But for me, just personally, as a thirty
Speaker 1: one year old woman, the work of finding my true
Speaker 1: passion and pleasure and having the best sex sorry mom,
Speaker 1: has been internal That work has been internalized. When I
Speaker 1: was doing the most too to telegraph to the people
Speaker 1: that I found desirable, that I'm sexy and do you
Speaker 1: want me and all of that, I was having the
Speaker 1: worst sex now that I am. Why do you think
Speaker 1: you were having the worst sex because I was focused
Speaker 1: on what they were seeing. How does this make you feel?
Speaker 1: What is your reaction? Can we get a little even?
Speaker 1: You know, I can remember being younger and having sex
Speaker 1: and being like is this the right position? Like? How
Speaker 1: does my backroll look? Does my body look weird when
Speaker 1: I'm in this position? Okay, wait, Kimberly, what are your
Speaker 1: facial expressions doing? Like I couldn't even be focused on
Speaker 1: the pleasure because to a certain degree, because you know,
Speaker 1: he don't want to be sexy. You can't be so conscious.
Speaker 1: I think that there's a there's a we have an
Speaker 1: awareness of like whatever, but like the consciousness is not
Speaker 1: going to be pleasurable. Yeah, yeah, yeah totally. And it's
Speaker 1: even like I used to when I was younger, try
Speaker 1: to like face tune my nudes, right, like smooth out
Speaker 1: cellulite and all of that. And now I'm like, this
Speaker 1: is the body, This is the body you gonna get. Okay,
Speaker 1: if you don't want this body, then I don't need
Speaker 1: to come. Let me know, we faith tuned yours. I
Speaker 1: don't take nudes just because, but you faith tuned your
Speaker 1: That's deep to me. I wonder I'm sing not the
Speaker 1: only one he's done that. I am sure I've smoothed
Speaker 1: out cell you like tried to even out skin zone
Speaker 1: and all of that. Oh totally, yeah, yeah, yeah wow.
Speaker 1: But I think one of the important things that you
Speaker 1: alluded to when that you talk about in your channel
Speaker 1: is framing certain spectacles and performance and sexuality as empowering.
Speaker 1: Is a way for the consumers to sort of absolve ourselves,
Speaker 1: right participating in something that may or may not be
Speaker 1: empowering for someone, but like we can call it empowerment
Speaker 1: and feel more venerated. So of just saying I really
Speaker 1: like this song, I love Walk, you know I love Walk.
Speaker 1: I'm like I when he came out, I was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is pornographic that was my first thought,
Speaker 1: and then I couldn't get it out of my mind,
Speaker 1: and then I was just running around my apartment dancing
Speaker 1: to it. And now I just live for it. I
Speaker 1: like a couple of really sexually explicit songs from a
Speaker 1: younger rapper named Mulatto, first of all, and now I
Speaker 1: am problematic as also songs not super progressive. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to pretend like that's feminism. I'm not gonna pretend
Speaker 1: like Mulatto getting us free like what. I just like it, Okay,
Speaker 1: I just like it. And it's okay, like let's free
Speaker 1: ourselves to not have to ascribe political meeting to every
Speaker 1: single thing we enjoy. I just like it. Amen. So
Speaker 1: I like to end the podcast with a question that
Speaker 1: comes from my therapy Stay with Me. What else is true? Um?
Speaker 1: And it's based in the community resiliency model, and it's
Speaker 1: the idea of both and that if there's something challenging
Speaker 1: going on in my life and I feel that in
Speaker 1: a really specific way, where in my body is it
Speaker 1: neutral and positive? What else is true? And even though
Speaker 1: things might be challenging right now in the world and
Speaker 1: in your life, Kimberly, what else is true? For you.
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, oh, I'm afraid to answer this. Okay, So
Speaker 1: recently I've been thinking about how I am a person
Speaker 1: who is deserving of love and care and affection. And
Speaker 1: it is not tied to what I'm producing. It is
Speaker 1: not tied to how much money is in my bank account.
Speaker 1: It's not tied to the fact that COVID has shut
Speaker 1: down so many of my dreams for this year. That
Speaker 1: I'm valuable just because I am able to move through
Speaker 1: the world, and I'm valuable because I'm generous, and I'm
Speaker 1: valuable because I'm kind, and I'm so lucky to have
Speaker 1: so many people in my life who make it a
Speaker 1: point to take time out of their day to affirm
Speaker 1: that value. Like that's really been getting me through that
Speaker 1: I can just show up as Kim who is sometimes
Speaker 1: a mess and be worthy. Yeah. I love that. I'm
Speaker 1: a Burnee Brown scholar and stand as everyone knows. And
Speaker 1: one of the things that Brinie brown Um says in
Speaker 1: her work is that worthiness is a birthright. Worthiness has
Speaker 1: no prerequisite. And that's what came up from me from
Speaker 1: what you just said. And that's so beautiful. That's a
Speaker 1: beautiful what else is true? Thank you? So much, Kimberly.
Speaker 1: Where can people find you on social media? What's going on? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So follow for Harriet on YouTube just type in for
Speaker 1: Harriet for Harriet is also freely active on Instagram for
Speaker 1: dot Harriet. I'm all over the internet at Kimberly and
Speaker 1: Foster and Kimberly and Foster dot com. I'm just out
Speaker 1: here just saying stuff, just saying whatever comes to my mind.
Speaker 1: I value what you have to say. You have these
Speaker 1: very difficult conversations that are nuanced and for me, very
Speaker 1: very necessary. I'm so honored and I'm so glad we
Speaker 1: got to have this time together. Thank you, Kimberly. Thank
Speaker 1: you to learn. I think get older, I often think
Speaker 1: about is there going to be a moment when I'm
Speaker 1: sort of put out to pastor particularly as an actress,
Speaker 1: dually as a woman. I feel like I look pretty
Speaker 1: good for my age. I'm forty eight years old, and
Speaker 1: I think that I have achieved some of the success
Speaker 1: I've achieved because I'm intelligent and because I'm talented. But
Speaker 1: I would be silly to think that, Um, I've been
Speaker 1: on all these magazine covers because I, you know, just
Speaker 1: because I'm smart and talented, I think how I look
Speaker 1: is a part of what makes me marketable or not marketable.
Speaker 1: But I think about it in terms of dating and relationships,
Speaker 1: and it's something that I accept, but it's something that
Speaker 1: I have a lot of ambivalence about. It's something that
Speaker 1: scares me because people get older, god willing, and I
Speaker 1: know that in an agist, misogynist, transmissive agonist culture that
Speaker 1: older women are not often regarded in the same way
Speaker 1: as younger women are. So I hope as I get
Speaker 1: older that you know, my intelligence, my brain will stay
Speaker 1: with me, and my talent will expand as my body changes.
Speaker 1: But I wanted to have this conversation with Kimberly because
Speaker 1: she has thoughts on this subject that made me think
Speaker 1: about it differently, and I hope it will make you
Speaker 1: think about the subject differently as well. Thank you for
Speaker 1: listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Join me next week
Speaker 1: when I'll be talking to T. S. Madison YouTube sensation,
Speaker 1: media personality, and now the start of her own show
Speaker 1: on we TV, The T. S. Madison Experience. If you
Speaker 1: like what you hear, please rate, review, subscribe and share
Speaker 1: with everyone you know. You can find me on Instagram
Speaker 1: and Twitter at Laverne Cox and on Facebook at Laverne
Speaker 1: Cox for Real. Until next time, stay in the lock.
Speaker 1: The Laverne Cock Show is the production of Shondaland Audio
Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from
Speaker 1: Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
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