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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Laverne Cox Show, a reduction of shondaland

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Speaker 1: Audio in partnership with My Heart Radio. We're still not

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Speaker 1: extending the care that we need to the people who

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Speaker 1: are always going to be left out, who are always

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Speaker 1: going to be quote unquote ugly. And when I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: about what do I want an ideal society to be,

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Speaker 1: what I would want is even those people who don't

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Speaker 1: fit any beauty, ideal, any standard, right that you can

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Speaker 1: have access to the care that you need. Hello, and

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Speaker 1: welcome to the Laverne Cox Show. I've become a huge

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Speaker 1: consumer of YouTube content lately, and one of the YouTube

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Speaker 1: channels I love is called for Harriet, which features the

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Speaker 1: cultural commentary, interviews, and nuanced critical perspectives of Kimberly Foster,

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Speaker 1: who centers the experiences of black women. Kimberly Foster is

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Speaker 1: a writer, cultural critic, and media contributor. She's also the

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Speaker 1: founder and editor in chief for Harriet, a multi platform

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Speaker 1: digital community, as well as a national live events series

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Speaker 1: recognized the leading voice online by teen Vogue and Huffington Post.

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Speaker 1: Kimberly's video commentaries on current events have accumulated millions of

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Speaker 1: views and appeared on owns, black women own the conversation.

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Speaker 1: She always has her finger on the pulse because she

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Speaker 1: is part of the pulse. Honey. Kimberly made a video

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Speaker 1: about beauty as a commodity that illuminated some of the

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Speaker 1: thoughts I already had about the subject and made me

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Speaker 1: think about so many other things. On today's episode, we're

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Speaker 1: going to be talking to the outspoken feminist and founder

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Speaker 1: about beauty as capital. I find her so inspiring and smart,

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Speaker 1: and she always makes me think about something I hadn't

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Speaker 1: considered before. Please enjoy my conversation with Kimberly Foster. Hello,

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Speaker 1: kim really, welcome to the podcast. How are you feeling today?

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Speaker 1: I am great? First of all, thanks so much for

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Speaker 1: the invitation. I said I'm great, But that's always a lie,

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Speaker 1: right like in COVID times. That's not real. But I'm okay.

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Speaker 1: I am good. I really value the fact that I

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Speaker 1: have a job and I am not sick and my

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Speaker 1: family is not sick. But every once in a while

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Speaker 1: I get a little set because life is going by

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Speaker 1: and I can't do the stuff I want to do.

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Speaker 1: But it's it's okay. I'm okay. I follow your channel,

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Speaker 1: your YouTube, channel. That's how it became aware of you

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Speaker 1: and love it, and now I follow you on Instagram,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. You've been so prolific during quarantine. From my view,

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Speaker 1: I feel like you're constantly putting out videos talking about

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Speaker 1: what's going on in the world right now, and for

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Speaker 1: me that it takes a toll, especially when we're talking

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Speaker 1: about things like racial justice and imprisoned, that abolition and

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Speaker 1: all they really intense, complicated things that you talk about

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Speaker 1: on your channel. Is that taking a toll on you emotionally?

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Speaker 1: How do you balance putting out content that is really

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Speaker 1: intense with like your I guess self care. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: for the first six months of Quarantine, I was super prolific.

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Speaker 1: I was on it, and I know that I have

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Speaker 1: a cycle of using work to evade dealing with my emotions.

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Speaker 1: That's like a long running theme in my life. And

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Speaker 1: so I absolutely was diving head first into making stuff.

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Speaker 1: And people are at home, so they're gonna click and

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Speaker 1: watch and don't throw away your shot. Get in fun people,

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Speaker 1: And honestly that has paid off in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 1: But over the past couple of months, I have really

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Speaker 1: been feeling it like I'm not doing as much as

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Speaker 1: I need to be doing, and I'm letting myself down.

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Speaker 1: And I built this community and they expect things that

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Speaker 1: I'm not delivering. I definitely feel that right now that

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Speaker 1: has taken a huge emotional toll on me. And then

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Speaker 1: I do feel like I have a little bit of

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Speaker 1: seasonal effective disorder. I'm just hearing that and I'm taking

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Speaker 1: it in and I'm reminded of this phrase that I

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Speaker 1: learned years ago, I forget where, and the phrase is

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Speaker 1: I am enough. I have enough and I do enough.

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Speaker 1: And I've had so many moments over the years where

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Speaker 1: it's like I need to be doing more. I am

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Speaker 1: not successful enough, I'm letting people down. I need to

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Speaker 1: just keep going. And I know that it's not really

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Speaker 1: working for me anymore. That I that just going going doing.

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Speaker 1: It's not the best for my mental health physical health.

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Speaker 1: So I have to slim myself down. Is where I'm

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Speaker 1: at with all that. Yeah, yeah, I think it's really

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Speaker 1: difficult as a creator. I mean, because of the rhythms

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Speaker 1: of the Internet, we are used to being in constant

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Speaker 1: consumption mode. So what's the new thing, new TikTok, new

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Speaker 1: Instagram post, new tweeks, you know, and because I recognize

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Speaker 1: that is the expect patient, I do internalize that I

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Speaker 1: do want to be great at my job. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to be good at my job. I want to

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Speaker 1: be great. I want to believe a legacy. I want

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Speaker 1: to be exceptional. And I understand that people are turning

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Speaker 1: to me to maybe say things that they might not

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Speaker 1: have the words for, and I want to deliver that

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Speaker 1: for them. But I also do want to be gentle

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Speaker 1: with myself. I do want to extend myself the kind

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Speaker 1: of grace that I make it a point to extend

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Speaker 1: to other people. Yeah, what I've come to understand is

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Speaker 1: that I'm not going to be of use to anyone

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Speaker 1: if I'm physically, emotionally, psychologically depleted. That I must put

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Speaker 1: the life mask on myself first, and if it's not on,

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Speaker 1: then I'm not really going to be able to really

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Speaker 1: be of service in the way that I want to be.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely Yeah, I think it's always important to put that

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Speaker 1: out into the world. I know I can't hear it

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Speaker 1: enough for the folks who don't know you and your work.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell them about what for Harry it is

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Speaker 1: and how it all began. Absolutely so, I started for

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Speaker 1: it as a blog from my college dorm room a

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Speaker 1: decade ago, which sounds crazy. It is crazy that I'm

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Speaker 1: in my thirties right now, but let's not talk about that.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I decided that I wanted to create a

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Speaker 1: space where I could have really thoughtful, intergenerational conversations about

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Speaker 1: black womanhood and black feminism in particular. I have really

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Speaker 1: a dedicated set of politics that I'm really committed to.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to have those progressive conversations in interesting and

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Speaker 1: innovative ways. And eventually it evolved from just being blogging

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Speaker 1: just written posts, to me making videos, and the YouTube

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Speaker 1: channel has really blown up over the past two years

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Speaker 1: eighteen months. The title for Harriet and you talked about

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Speaker 1: it being about black women, black women feminism. Why Harriet?

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Speaker 1: I just I think I know why? Um, but everyone sure?

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Speaker 1: So I founded the site on the day before June tenth,

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Speaker 1: and it's named for Harriet because of Harriet Tubman. I

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Speaker 1: always want to embody a liberatory politic. I want to

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Speaker 1: take risks. I don't want to be worried about what's popular,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like if there is a guiding light

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Speaker 1: or shining star, then it's absolutely for me going to

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Speaker 1: be a Harriet Tubman. Oh that's so beautiful. That's so beautiful. Um.

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Speaker 1: I love the way in which you talk about pop

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Speaker 1: culture and use pop culture as a way to critically

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Speaker 1: analyze systemic you know, structures like racism, sexism, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: And clearly watching your videos, I'm like, this woman has

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Speaker 1: read her bell Hooks. I'm a bell Hooks stand lover.

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Speaker 1: Do not get me started. The way the way you

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Speaker 1: talk about so many things, it's like a nuanced understanding

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Speaker 1: of Hooks that I feel like a lot of people

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Speaker 1: don't haven't really done that work with and it's it

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Speaker 1: really writing for me. And I just think bell Hooks

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Speaker 1: is so crucial, so crucial in so many different ways,

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Speaker 1: and so pop culture is the only thing you talk about.

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Speaker 1: But there's so many moments with pop culture that you

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Speaker 1: use this teachable moments. Why do you do that? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So I Number one, I'm obsessed with pop culture. From

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Speaker 1: the time I was a little kid, was obsessed with movies,

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Speaker 1: and I was obsessed with the Internet and music and

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Speaker 1: read all the magazines and all that like. But as

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Speaker 1: I got older and my politics evolved, I recognized that

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Speaker 1: this stuff that I was consuming and internalizing. It's not harmless,

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Speaker 1: it's not a political There's so much stuff in there

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Speaker 1: that when you really dig into it, it connects to

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Speaker 1: all of these superstructures. It connects to feminism, it connects

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Speaker 1: to social justice. And when I decided that I wanted

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Speaker 1: to start creating content, I understood that I have all

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Speaker 1: of these deep political commitments. And sometimes it's really heavy

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Speaker 1: and people are like, you're using the jargon, what are

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Speaker 1: you talking about? And so using pop culture as an

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Speaker 1: entry way to get to those really deep sometimes heavy

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Speaker 1: conversations makes it accessible to folks who are outside of

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Speaker 1: the academy or who are not reading bell Hooks all

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Speaker 1: the time, who are not reading Patricia Hill Collins, Right,

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Speaker 1: you know it's the hook Well, bell Hooks is really

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Speaker 1: interesting in being accessible as well, right, she wrote in

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Speaker 1: a very specific way, so that people can access the

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Speaker 1: information even though she is an academic. That's lineups as

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Speaker 1: with her, Like, I feel like I referenced bell Hooks

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Speaker 1: all the time, because it's easy to feel like we

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Speaker 1: on YouTube who do this commentary stuff, like we're the

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Speaker 1: first people to do it, or we're innovating, like no,

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Speaker 1: like we are building on a foundation that has already

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Speaker 1: been set, and I think it's really important for us

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Speaker 1: to acknowledge that, like somebody like Bell Hooks, Black Looks,

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Speaker 1: come on, Okay, Like Black Looks is the first Bell

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Speaker 1: Hooks book I read, and it changed my life in

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Speaker 1: a very substantial way. And you know, I have traveled

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Speaker 1: the country doing college lectures and people would stand up

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Speaker 1: with these critiques of feminism and say white feminism ists

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Speaker 1: and white feminism, and I'm just excuse me. The way

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Speaker 1: I came to feminism was through people like Bell Hooks

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Speaker 1: and people like Audrey Lord. And it just it pisces

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Speaker 1: me off, if I'm being honest, when feminism is always

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Speaker 1: reduced to this this white feminism that like just totally

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Speaker 1: erases like centuries of work that black women have been doing,

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Speaker 1: that it's always been intersectional. Yes, it's deeply, deeply upsetting.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's especially upsetting when you think of the

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Speaker 1: work that those women did to make themselves known, to produce.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they had to found their own presses and

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Speaker 1: they booked their own speaking tours and like, but against

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Speaker 1: the white women, like, do not dismiss that, Like it's

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Speaker 1: it's really deep, it's really really deep. The main reason

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Speaker 1: I want to talk to you is because of this

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Speaker 1: specific post where you talked about beauty being a really

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Speaker 1: bad investment. And I think it hit me in such

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Speaker 1: an intense way because it was something that I understood

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Speaker 1: intellectually and in my gut, but I never really heard

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Speaker 1: someone put it into words, specifically the way that you

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Speaker 1: did around beauty as a commodity, beauty and capitalism. Um.

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Speaker 1: For me, I'm in this space as a black trans

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Speaker 1: woman who was an actress, and you know, I'm walked runways,

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Speaker 1: and I'm forty eight years old, and I'm sort of

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways just getting started in my career,

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Speaker 1: and I'm in this anxiety around aging out. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's just really deep and it's complicated, and can you

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Speaker 1: talk to me a little bit about where your thoughts.

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Speaker 1: Beauty is a commodity and and all of that come from. Sure.

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Speaker 1: So I love to talk about beauty because a lot

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Speaker 1: of the conversations that I hear about it are just

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Speaker 1: really silly and disingenuous. You know a lot of that stuff.

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Speaker 1: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and you

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Speaker 1: just have to love yourself. No, when I'm talking about beauty,

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Speaker 1: I am talking about beauty as a form of structural inequality.

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Speaker 1: We have all of these hierarchies in the world, class, race, gender,

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Speaker 1: but we don't often talk about beauty as a way

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Speaker 1: that many people and women in particular, are exceptionally marginalized,

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Speaker 1: and we are expected to invest deeply in the pursuit

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Speaker 1: of beauty. If we don't naturally have what is deemed beautiful,

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Speaker 1: we are expected to spend all of our time and

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Speaker 1: all of our money chasing it. Right And if you

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Speaker 1: are not able to chase it, if you are not

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Speaker 1: able to acquire it, you're a failed woman. If you

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Speaker 1: don't have it, then you can just expect to be

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Speaker 1: on the margins. You can expect for people to not

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Speaker 1: hire you, You can expect to not be picked if

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Speaker 1: you desire a partner. Right Like, they are all of

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Speaker 1: these things that we just accept as natural, normal and inevitable,

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Speaker 1: but they're not right like, They're reinforced structurally all around

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Speaker 1: us all the time, and a lot of us are

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Speaker 1: participating in that. The first time I heard the phrase

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Speaker 1: pretty pretty vilege, Janet Mock, the writer now director, producer,

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Speaker 1: used the term to talk about her pretty privileged as

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Speaker 1: a black trans woman who was often assumed to be

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Speaker 1: SIS gender and it was really intense for me and

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Speaker 1: really important to hear someone say that, because I find

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Speaker 1: it's really rare and open. Her interview with her for

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Speaker 1: Super Soul Sunday, Oprah was like, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for saying pretty privileged, because she was like, I talked

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Speaker 1: to so many beautiful women who don't seem to acknowledge

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Speaker 1: that that's a thing, that don't seem to acknowledge that

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Speaker 1: there are privileges that come with being considered beautiful, and

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Speaker 1: we should say being as very beautiful within I would

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Speaker 1: say SIS normative white supremacists, sort of patriarchal standards, right,

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Speaker 1: and so the the hierarchy, the inequality that comes with

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Speaker 1: that is really really deep. And as a trans woman,

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Speaker 1: I'm keenly aware too of the ways in which I'm evaluated,

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Speaker 1: right in terms of my femininity since I started my

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Speaker 1: medical transition twenty two years ago, in the ways in

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Speaker 1: which I'm sort of evaluated and expected to embody femininity

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Speaker 1: that are often deeply problematic. Remember when I was on

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Speaker 1: the cover of Time magazine and there were all of

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Speaker 1: these older, white late transitioning trans women who were so

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Speaker 1: upset that I all of a sudden with the face

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Speaker 1: of the trans community because I was dropped dead Gortis

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Speaker 1: in their in their eyes, and I was like, when

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Speaker 1: did I become When did I become dropped dead Gorgias.

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Speaker 1: I was like when, Because in my estimation, I was

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Speaker 1: always that trans woman who wasn't quote unquote possible enough.

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Speaker 1: I would go to trans parties and other trans women

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Speaker 1: would tell me how much surgery I needed to be

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Speaker 1: more possible. And that is really problematic language. I'm using

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Speaker 1: you to shorthand when I say passing. So I just

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Speaker 1: think about those experiences in the context of this conversation.

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Speaker 1: So something that I always have to underscore is when

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Speaker 1: I am laying out these theories about beauty as a commodity,

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Speaker 1: about beauty as the primary form of capital and thus

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Speaker 1: access to power that most women and have access to.

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Speaker 1: I am not doing it in a judgmental way. I

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Speaker 1: understand that we are all operating in these really coercive systems,

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Speaker 1: like there are incredible consequences if you opt out. You

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Speaker 1: want to get hired, you want to eat, you want

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Speaker 1: to have access to healthcare and stable housing. If you're

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Speaker 1: a woman, you're probably gonna do what you have to do.

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Speaker 1: And that means for a lot of us that we're

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Speaker 1: going to participate in the system and get our hair

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Speaker 1: done and put on makeup. And I know that I

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Speaker 1: was always as a kid encouraged because I'm a black

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Speaker 1: girl at a brown skin, kinky hair and all that

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Speaker 1: be feminine, put on the dress where the heels right,

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Speaker 1: to try to offset all of the stereotypes, the historical

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Speaker 1: baggage that my body contains as I moved through the world.

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Speaker 1: And so I understand the critiques right of saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: it really sucks that this is the kind of normative womanhood, right,

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Speaker 1: or like the kind of performance of femininity or gender

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Speaker 1: that is most celebrated and most visible. I just think

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Speaker 1: that often when we are trying to say you, she's

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Speaker 1: too pretty, and like, you know, I think Beyonce gets

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Speaker 1: this a lot right in the Beyonce thing. It's complicated.

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Speaker 1: It's complicated. I have feelings about it. But I do

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Speaker 1: think that if we are going to love those kinds

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Speaker 1: of critiques, we do also have to grapple with the reality. Right.

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Speaker 1: We have to understand that, you know, white supremacist society,

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Speaker 1: you have to play certain kinds of games and to

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Speaker 1: varying degrees. We're all playing, but like not playing means

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Speaker 1: that you're gonna be sideline, you're gonna be marginalized, you

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Speaker 1: might not be able to eight. So I just think

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Speaker 1: that like the nuance is really important. Absolutely absolutely Wow.

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Speaker 1: Bellhook Star said that we're all living in contradiction when

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Speaker 1: it comes to particularly the capitalist part of what is

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Speaker 1: required to survive, and so we have to just be

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Speaker 1: in the truth of that and and not go into

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Speaker 1: this uncritically. And I think that's the reality for me

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Speaker 1: that I'm very keenly aware. It's very tricky and it's

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Speaker 1: really complicated trying to maintain authenticity and integrity in these

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Speaker 1: systems where I'm also trying to survive and hopefully create

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Speaker 1: space for other people do exist as well. Oh honey,

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Speaker 1: how's that for a little truth after a tiny little break,

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Speaker 1: We've got so much more for you, alrighty, then let's

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Speaker 1: just dive right back in. They are these channels that

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Speaker 1: really target darker skin black women around being feminine. Right,

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Speaker 1: there's this sort of pushed to be like more feminine,

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Speaker 1: and there's a suggestion that like darker skinned women are

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Speaker 1: not portrayed femininely enough in the media. Do you have

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Speaker 1: thoughts about that, because this is a really interesting I'm

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Speaker 1: sure you do. Yeah, oh my, yeah, I have thoughts

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Speaker 1: about that. So I understand what motivates those channels. Life

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Speaker 1: is really hard. If you're a black woman, it's super hard.

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Speaker 1: If your dark skin, it's super hard. If you have

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Speaker 1: broad features, if you have kinky hair, And so what

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Speaker 1: can we do to ameliorate some of that violence? What

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Speaker 1: can we do to stop it? Right? And so, if

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Speaker 1: wearing the dress is gonna stop it, let's wear the dress.

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Speaker 1: If wearing the heels is gonna stop it, if talking

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Speaker 1: in the high voice is gonna stop it, let's do

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Speaker 1: that stuff. The problem is that doesn't really work. It

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Speaker 1: might work sometimes, but it's not going to work all

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Speaker 1: the time. And so what are you gonna do when

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Speaker 1: those kinds of performances fail you. My problem is that

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Speaker 1: a lot of those spaces and those channels aren't really

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Speaker 1: dealing with the reality of we're not treated poorly because

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Speaker 1: we don't put on dresses. That's not it, right, Like

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Speaker 1: an enslavement, when our fore mothers, our ancestors were being

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Speaker 1: brutalized and raped, it wasn't because they weren't putting on dresses. Contemporarily,

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Speaker 1: when black women who are birthing black people, when their

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Speaker 1: doctors ignore their pain and allow their babies to die, like,

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Speaker 1: it's not because you're not wearing dresses, it's because we're

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Speaker 1: navigating white supremacist capitalist patriarchy in which our beings are

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Speaker 1: not valuable, and there is no performance of femininity that's

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Speaker 1: going to be able to undo that. The only thing

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Speaker 1: that's really going to be able to undo that is

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Speaker 1: if we tip away and ultimately dismantle those structures. And

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Speaker 1: when and when I hear that and what I just

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Speaker 1: came up from me and what everything you said is

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Speaker 1: the deep pain underneath all of the sort of brutal

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Speaker 1: nature of the ways in which imperialist, wide supremacist, capitalist

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Speaker 1: patriarch is played out in the lives of black women specifically.

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Speaker 1: So it's like, what can we do to lessen the pain?

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Speaker 1: Then the trauma attached to all of that without a

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Speaker 1: critique of this system right probably places the problem with

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Speaker 1: a black women that like, our marginalization is our fault

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Speaker 1: when we'd say that we need to be more feminine,

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Speaker 1: and it sort of absolves the system of any responsibility.

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Speaker 1: And this is actually not it's not empowering, it's something

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Speaker 1: that you can aedge out of. It's something that you

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Speaker 1: you may still not be ait enough for someone. Right,

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Speaker 1: as much as I have in so many ways performed

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Speaker 1: a traditional kind of femininity in my life as a

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Speaker 1: trans woman, I'm not feminine enough for some people. I'll

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Speaker 1: never be a voice. I'm still really tall. Like, there's

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Speaker 1: just ways in which I fall short. You know. I

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Speaker 1: started the hashtag trans as Beautiful as a way to

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Speaker 1: sort of reckon with that, But like, there has to

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Speaker 1: be another way. There has to be another lens, another

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Speaker 1: gaze that we can engage with. I think feeling beautiful

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Speaker 1: is something that is actually really important I think for

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Speaker 1: us to have on an individual level. And I guess

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Speaker 1: with the proliferation of more plus size models, with more models,

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Speaker 1: you know, with disabilities and darker skin models, and is

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Speaker 1: there a way that beauty as capital can sort of

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Speaker 1: be revisioned away from those gazes that are problematic? Or

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Speaker 1: if we are making beauty a commodity, even if they're

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Speaker 1: different bodies and skin tones, are we still replicating the

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Speaker 1: same system. You know, this is something that I really

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Speaker 1: struggle with because I spend so much time on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: I spend so much time on social media, and I

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Speaker 1: recognize that there are so many women who are able

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Speaker 1: to find body positive Instagram pages or let's celebrate dark

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Speaker 1: skin Instagram pages, or even I follow up a young

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Speaker 1: girl who says, my acne is beautiful, and I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I wish I had this when I was thirteen. Right,

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Speaker 1: So I get that it is important for you to

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Speaker 1: be able, for us all to be able to see

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Speaker 1: ourselves and feel affirmed and validated and good in our bodies.

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Speaker 1: I have trouble with this idea because I do feel

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Speaker 1: like a lot of it goes back to this thing

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Speaker 1: of we're afraid to be ugly. We don't want to

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Speaker 1: feel ugly, we don't want other people to call us ugly.

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Speaker 1: Can we pause for a second when you said we're

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Speaker 1: afraid to be ugly and I don't for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: that hit me in my gut. Can you. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to stop your thoughts, but can you unpack that

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Speaker 1: a little bit what that means for you. Yeah. So,

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Speaker 1: in our quests to redefine beauty ideals, to expand the

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Speaker 1: definition of beauty, we want to pull more and more

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Speaker 1: people in because we want everybody to feel good. That's

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Speaker 1: a that's a worthy goal, I understand. But then the

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Speaker 1: flip side is everybody can't be in the bubble of beauty,

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Speaker 1: right Like we're trying to expand and rethink and reimagine,

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Speaker 1: but ultimately we're still setting boundaries. Were just setting boundaries

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Speaker 1: different places depending on who we are or how we

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Speaker 1: feel we're affected by the standard, or where we live

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Speaker 1: or what day of the week it is, And so

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Speaker 1: there are always going to be people left on the outside.

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Speaker 1: And what about those people? I don't think that in

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Speaker 1: our quest to do all of the stuff, which again

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Speaker 1: I get it, but we're still not extending the care

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Speaker 1: that we need to the people who are always going

400
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Speaker 1: to be left out, who are always going to be

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Speaker 1: quote unquote ugly. When I'm thinking about what do I

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Speaker 1: want an ideal society to be, what I would want

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Speaker 1: is even those people who don't fit any beauty ideal,

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Speaker 1: any standard, right that you can have access to the

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Speaker 1: care that you need, that you can have access to safety,

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Speaker 1: that you don't have to spend your life on the

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Speaker 1: treadmill of self doubt and anxiety and worry. And that's

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Speaker 1: only gonna happen if we dismantle that stuff like I

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Speaker 1: don't want to be I have to be the feminist

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Speaker 1: skill joy all the time and the Debbie Downer. But like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: every time you erect a new boundary, it's keeping people out,

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Speaker 1: and I just think it's important for us to underscore that.

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Speaker 1: I think about the capitalist piece of all of it, right,

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Speaker 1: I think for for a brand, it's like, oh, we

415
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Speaker 1: can bring a lot more people, and we have more customers,

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Speaker 1: and we have more people who feel seen and included

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Speaker 1: in so we can sell more product. And so I

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Speaker 1: think for in terms of a business model, it's great

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00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: to be inclusive. But that's a very Western value, the

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Speaker 1: right to be a consumer, right, Like I want to

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Speaker 1: be in on that right. Like when we are compelling

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00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 1: these fashion houses to to put plus size models on

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00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 1: the runway, it is about you don't want my business,

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Speaker 1: you don't want me to be able to buy your fire,

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00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 1: And it's like, oh, maybe we should question that desire. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: some designers, I mean the late great Carlographel, I think

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Speaker 1: he literally said he didn't want women of certain sizes

428
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 1: wearing his clothes. And as an actress who has never

429
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: been a sample size, there are a lot of designers

430
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: that I've just never worn and probably never will wear

431
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 1: because I just I'm not the right size. Yeah yeah,

432
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 1: I mean, but again it goes back to the hierarchy thing.

433
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: But also as a black woman, we are taught to

434
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: view that rejection as a personal affront, like, how dare

435
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 1: you deny me the right to build my worth off

436
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: of what I can acquire. You're intentionally keeping me out.

437
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 1: That's anti American, you know. So I just think I

438
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: just want to I want people to interrogate just a

439
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:04,560
Speaker 1: little bit. I think it's really really tricky right to

440
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: not be dismissed when you have an opinion that it's

441
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 1: outside of the status quo. To not be positioned, it's

442
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 1: just crazy radical who needs to be silenced. And I think,

443
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: like for me, when I think about critics of capitalists,

444
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: I think about critiques of predatory capitalism, right, and the

445
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: ways in which capitalism historically has preyed on certain people

446
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:27,040
Speaker 1: and bodies, and that capitalism has already been predatory historically,

447
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: like just looking at the truth of how it functions.

448
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 1: And I say, this is someone who engages in capitalism,

449
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: is someone who wants to make money. You know who

450
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: I've been for most of my life, and that was

451
00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: not cute, Like not knowing if if I'd be able

452
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 1: to pay the rent, not being able to go to

453
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 1: the dentist or go to the doctor, and all the

454
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 1: things that like you experience when you're poor. It's really

455
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 1: really not cute. Yeah, again, I think that I love this.

456
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 1: I think that this nuance is important because I understand

457
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 1: the fundamental exploitation that capitalism requires, but I also recognize

458
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to be my own safety net, and

459
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna have to make financial decisions so that

460
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: I can go to the doctor when I'm in my

461
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: sixties and seventies and eighties, so that I don't have

462
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 1: to rely on my nieces because I don't really plan

463
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: on having children, because if I don't make those plans

464
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: that are unfortunately invested in this capitalist culture, that they're

465
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 1: going to suffer. The people who love me and who

466
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 1: are still around, then I'm going to be a drain

467
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: on them and their children. So living in this society

468
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 1: it forces you you can't again with all of these

469
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: hierarchies opting outcomes with enormous consequences, not just for you,

470
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 1: for anybody in your community for your family, for the

471
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: people who love and care for you, and so those

472
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: are the things that are always in our minds. This

473
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: reminds me of something you said in the video about

474
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 1: beauty being a bad investment, and it was really deep

475
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: for me as someone who thinking about aging and desirability.

476
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: And I think so much of like beauty is also

477
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 1: tied to whether or not you get loved. And I

478
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: think the tricky thing about being a woman who is

479
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: attracted to men and who dates men is that space

480
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: of wanting to be found desirable, because I think we

481
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 1: all need love, we all need to be cared for

482
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: and seeing is worthy of love, and so many of

483
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: these sort of beauty standards and the ages and that

484
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: is so attached to that. I think that becomes a

485
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,919
Speaker 1: tricky thing about being a feminist, And the tricky thing

486
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: about being a feminist who is attracted to men and

487
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: wants to be in a relationship with them navigating that

488
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 1: you know what, I coined this phrase. Have you heard

489
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: the term pick me before? I have heard you say it? Yes,

490
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: So I say all the time that so many of

491
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: us are feminists in the streets and pick mes in

492
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 1: the sheets because we have these politics and we're vocal

493
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 1: in public, and we understand what's right is right and

494
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: inequality is wrong, and we stand up. But when it

495
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: comes time to be partnered, when it comes time to

496
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: cuddle up, maybe you're getting with a man who don't

497
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: quite have the politics that you need to have. Maybe

498
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,160
Speaker 1: you are accepting a kind of treatment that you understand

499
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 1: is fundamentally unequal, is unjust. Maybe you're reproducing some inequality

500
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: in your home, you know, just to keep the peace right,

501
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: because that desire to be loved and care for and

502
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 1: honestly have sex. That's it's so natural and normal and

503
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: foundational to who we are as beings, as women, that

504
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: we're all making some concessions, you know, like we're all

505
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: doing it. And I think, as a feminist woman who

506
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: does partner men, what I've had to say to myself is, Okay,

507
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: what are you willing to give up? What are you

508
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: willing to deal with? How are you gonna address it?

509
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: You know when the stuff comes up, because inevitably the

510
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: stuff comes up? Right? And also, are you okay being alone?

511
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: Are you okay saying I'm not gonna participate in this,

512
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna deal with the aunts phobia or the

513
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: homophobia just because Okay, I'm not gonna get explicit, but

514
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: just because you're cute, Like I'm not going I'm not

515
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: going to know what you're gonna say, yes girl, and

516
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: right right hang yeah, But like but it's like, where

517
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: does my integrity lie? Because maybe I could deal with

518
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: that stuff and nobody would ever know, nobody would ever

519
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: see it. But does it matter to me that I'm

520
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: I'm aligning myself with this person who I know has

521
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: nasty politics. It does matter to me, And that means

522
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: sometimes you're not always gonna be able to get picked.

523
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: I was having a conversation with my girlfriends about how

524
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: hard it is to just find someone who can lay

525
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: it down the way it needs to be laid down

526
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,840
Speaker 1: when it comes to just to the physical part, and

527
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 1: that he's going to be respectful enough that I can

528
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: like deal And so I'm like, just the respect, the attraction,

529
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: the chemistry, those things are really hard to find. So

530
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, I may need to compromise on some

531
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: of these other things, and SE's some really clear boundaries, right,

532
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: So I think for me at this point in my life,

533
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: it's okay because I'm like hanging out with this dude

534
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: now who has politics that are very different from mine.

535
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: There have been some conversations that I'm like, Okay, I

536
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,360
Speaker 1: don't agree with this, and we've talked about it very respectfully.

537
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: That when I actually do believe, and I preached publicly

538
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: that it's important to be able to have conversations across

539
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: your friends and to be able to be in relationship

540
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: with people who we don't agree with in a respectful,

541
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: loving way. And I don't feel unsafe and I don't

542
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: feel compromised. My mother always says, if you're with a man,

543
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: you're putting up with some ship. So what exactly are

544
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: we willing to put up with? And what are we

545
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: not willing to put up with? But that is it? Right? Like,

546
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: I recognize that we are all humans and messy and

547
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: a lot of times men, and since men in particular,

548
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: they're behind, you know. And so if I do desire

549
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: to be partnered, if I do desire love and affection

550
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: and care, I'm probably gonna be dealing with somebody who

551
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: it's not where I think they should be. And so

552
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: how much time am I going to be willing to

553
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: invest in trying to get them where they need to be?

554
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: Are they open to my ideas like that now factors? Okay,

555
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: maybe you're not there, but are you open to having

556
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,080
Speaker 1: a conversation? Are you going to listen to me? Honestly?

557
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: But I don't believe that you can get into a

558
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,239
Speaker 1: relationship with anybody and change them. People change if they

559
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: want to change, but I cannot change somebody. So when

560
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: I think about that in terms of someone's politics, I

561
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 1: don't like assume that I can change them in that

562
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: realm either. So are you talking about, like, you know,

563
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: are their political fixed or upper because I don't know

564
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: if that's really I don't know if that's a thing.

565
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: I think that's a good point. No, you can't expect

566
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: people to change. But I do enter all of my relationships, romantic, familial,

567
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: friendly with the idea that everybody is capable of change.

568
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: So I know that I have been transformed because of

569
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: my connection with folks, and I know it is possible

570
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: that my connection to those people can have a similar

571
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: kind of effect. But I also am with you. You

572
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: cannot enter a relationship with the expectation that in six

573
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: months they're going to be reading belt hooks Like it's

574
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: just not realistic. And I think too what I found

575
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: in my life just living my life is an openly transperson.

576
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: Is that like, it's not always even about talking about

577
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: gender or whatever with people, but just living my life

578
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,959
Speaker 1: and being myself as authentically as I can be. Connect

579
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: you up is my full authentic self and be accepted

580
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: and not be rejected or shut down or or subjected

581
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: to conversations or viewpoints that I find violent or offensive

582
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: or whatever. Yeah, and I am so with you too.

583
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: Everybody in my life does not have perfect politics. Family,

584
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 1: people that I've dated, friends, what I would deem perfect politics.

585
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: I know that this is sect does it even exist? Right? Yeah?

586
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 1: So that's not a That's not a deal breaker for me.

587
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: It's just not I don't think that's hut. Yeah, I

588
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: gotta take a teensy break here, but I'll be fast.

589
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: That wasn't so bad, now, wasn't Okay, Let's get back

590
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: to it, speaking as partnered and being partnered. There was

591
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: a video that you did about the rap song Whop.

592
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: I think you've titled the Spectacle of Sexual Liberation. I

593
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: think something like that, And what I loved about it

594
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: is that they're talking about the spectacle of it. I

595
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: was like, Oh, this is it. It felt very hooksing

596
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: into me to sort of talk about the spectacle. But

597
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: oh I love that. Oh yes, yes, thank you so much. Yes, yeah,

598
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: to talk about the spectacle at all, but I think

599
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: that it's a really interesting way to ground and frame

600
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: the conversation around sort of sexual liberation and the idea

601
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: of sexual liberation. And I love how much you talk

602
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: about music in the music industry. Can you talk a

603
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: little bit about some of your thoughts on what you

604
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 1: call the spectacle of sexual liberation when it comes to

605
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 1: particularly Black women's sexuality and music. Yeah, So my concern

606
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 1: is that we have put so much emphasis on the

607
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: display of a liberated sexuality, meaning liberated Black women's bodies

608
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: look like this, and they do this, and they wear that,

609
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: and and she's wearing no clothes because she is liberated.

610
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: And if you question it, you are questioning her liberation.

611
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: And I just think that we should question that framing

612
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: the expectation that they will show up in that way.

613
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: The expectation is that they will perform their sexuality in

614
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 1: that way. In fact, there isn't really a lot of

615
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 1: space for women rappers, women in hip hop, women in

616
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 1: R and B to do anything other than that, and

617
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: why aren't we critiquing that lack of space. Why aren't

618
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 1: we critiquing the fact that so many Black women are

619
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: siloed into a singular kind of perform Harman's If we

620
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 1: are really invested in sexuality, we should be invested in

621
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 1: the idea that liberated bodies, that sexual bodies look and

622
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: move all kinds of ways, that it can feel different

623
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: for all kinds of people. Like I think that our

624
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 1: ability to imagine and innovate and think outside of the

625
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,919
Speaker 1: box is dampened because we are socialized in a certain way,

626
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: and it is incumbent upon us who are deeply invested,

627
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 1: truly in the liberation of black women's sexuality and the

628
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: liberation of black women's body, so that we can exist

629
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: outside of these boxes, to just question, right like, why

630
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 1: is that the thing that we always go to? Why

631
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: is that the thing that we deem the sexiest? And

632
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: we should also think about I'm always interested in consequences.

633
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: We should think about what happens if you choose to

634
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 1: step outside of that. Are you gonna be able to

635
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,919
Speaker 1: get worldwide fame? Probably not. Are you gonna be able

636
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: to sell a whole bunch of bread words? Probably? Not

637
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 1: right because it's again market places and desirability and higher

638
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: warchies and all of that. And if we are not

639
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: invested in just questioning that stuff, like again, we are

640
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: saying that we are okay with honestly the vast majority

641
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: of women, the vast majority of black women being left out.

642
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: Cardi b There was one moment that I think a

643
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 1: lot of black male rappers were sort of critiquing Cardi

644
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: and Nicky and other women who talk about sex a lot,

645
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 1: and they were critiquing in and Cardi came out in

646
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: a very Cardi way and said, well, you know, I

647
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 1: put out this song and I was talking about this

648
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 1: and it wasn't about my vagina and sexuality, and people

649
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: weren't checking for it. So it becomes this whole thing

650
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: of you know, the consumer and what it's a consumer want.

651
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: You talked about on one of your channels. You looked

652
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: at what songs were in the top one hundred by

653
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: black women, and most of them had to do with sexuality.

654
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: And so there was something about the market, right, thinking

655
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,040
Speaker 1: about the market, what people are responding to and not

656
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 1: responding to. So what is our responsibility as consumers if

657
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: we're coming back to this capitalist model again around empowering

658
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: different kinds of content. Yeah, you know, that's just what

659
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: they like. Don't be mad at her. But it's like,

660
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: these are really smart businesswomen. These women understand the marketplace.

661
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: They have huge machines behind them that are doing all

662
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 1: the testing and here's where you're going to get the

663
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 1: sales and all of that, and the streams and all

664
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 1: of that. This is ultimately, for them about a profit

665
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: making endeavor, and so we should consume it and view

666
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 1: it as a profit making endeavor where these women do

667
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 1: have the opportunity to play in a way that is

668
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: stimulating and fun. But like they're trying to get bags,

669
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,760
Speaker 1: you know, they're trying to get money. You're referencing Cardi

670
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 1: talking about her song Be Careful, which is like a

671
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: slower kind of song and it is about her husband

672
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: cheating on her and all of that, and that was

673
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: a cute song, and we don't want that from Cardi.

674
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 1: We have said, Cardi, you are this, so be that right.

675
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: And so I do talk about all the time the

676
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 1: kinds of coercion that's involved. And yes, these women are choosing.

677
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 1: Cardi chose to be a rapper, Meg chooses to be

678
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 1: a rapper, they maybe have a hand in choosing the singles,

679
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: But the coercion part is what are we responding to,

680
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: what are we streaming, what are we buying? What gets

681
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: them on the covers of magazines? And it is again

682
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: that narrow kind of performance. So, as a black woman

683
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,839
Speaker 1: who desires to see all kinds of bodies and all

684
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: kinds of performances and explorations, and I want black women

685
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 1: to have the space to innovate, I have to think

686
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: about where I spend my money, but also where I

687
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 1: focus my attention because in this economy, right in the

688
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 1: social media economy, attention is super super valuable. So who

689
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: am I following? Who am I subscribing to on Patreon?

690
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: Am I buying their books? And all of that? Right,

691
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: that is the way that I can't push back against

692
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 1: all of these struck sures. And again we can't do

693
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 1: individual solutions to structural problems. But I feel good in

694
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: saying this is where I'm going to spend my time,

695
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: this is where I'm going to invest. And I will

696
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: say that we are so focused I think in our

697
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 1: conversations about sexuality on the external, how are we externalizing liberation?

698
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: It looks like this, it, it wears, this and all

699
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,960
Speaker 1: of that. But for me, just personally, as a thirty

700
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,280
Speaker 1: one year old woman, the work of finding my true

701
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: passion and pleasure and having the best sex sorry mom,

702
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: has been internal That work has been internalized. When I

703
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,800
Speaker 1: was doing the most too to telegraph to the people

704
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: that I found desirable, that I'm sexy and do you

705
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: want me and all of that, I was having the

706
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 1: worst sex now that I am. Why do you think

707
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: you were having the worst sex because I was focused

708
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:57,280
Speaker 1: on what they were seeing. How does this make you feel?

709
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: What is your reaction? Can we get a little even?

710
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: You know, I can remember being younger and having sex

711
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 1: and being like is this the right position? Like? How

712
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 1: does my backroll look? Does my body look weird when

713
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: I'm in this position? Okay, wait, Kimberly, what are your

714
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: facial expressions doing? Like I couldn't even be focused on

715
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 1: the pleasure because to a certain degree, because you know,

716
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,720
Speaker 1: he don't want to be sexy. You can't be so conscious.

717
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 1: I think that there's a there's a we have an

718
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 1: awareness of like whatever, but like the consciousness is not

719
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: going to be pleasurable. Yeah, yeah, yeah totally. And it's

720
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: even like I used to when I was younger, try

721
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: to like face tune my nudes, right, like smooth out

722
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 1: cellulite and all of that. And now I'm like, this

723
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 1: is the body, This is the body you gonna get. Okay,

724
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: if you don't want this body, then I don't need

725
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 1: to come. Let me know, we faith tuned yours. I

726
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 1: don't take nudes just because, but you faith tuned your

727
00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: That's deep to me. I wonder I'm sing not the

728
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: only one he's done that. I am sure I've smoothed

729
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 1: out cell you like tried to even out skin zone

730
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 1: and all of that. Oh totally, yeah, yeah, yeah wow.

731
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: But I think one of the important things that you

732
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: alluded to when that you talk about in your channel

733
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: is framing certain spectacles and performance and sexuality as empowering.

734
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 1: Is a way for the consumers to sort of absolve ourselves,

735
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 1: right participating in something that may or may not be

736
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: empowering for someone, but like we can call it empowerment

737
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 1: and feel more venerated. So of just saying I really

738
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: like this song, I love Walk, you know I love Walk.

739
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: I'm like I when he came out, I was like,

740
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is pornographic that was my first thought,

741
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 1: and then I couldn't get it out of my mind,

742
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: and then I was just running around my apartment dancing

743
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: to it. And now I just live for it. I

744
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 1: like a couple of really sexually explicit songs from a

745
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: younger rapper named Mulatto, first of all, and now I

746
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: am problematic as also songs not super progressive. I'm not

747
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 1: going to pretend like that's feminism. I'm not gonna pretend

748
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:10,880
Speaker 1: like Mulatto getting us free like what. I just like it, Okay,

749
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: I just like it. And it's okay, like let's free

750
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:19,000
Speaker 1: ourselves to not have to ascribe political meeting to every

751
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:27,880
Speaker 1: single thing we enjoy. I just like it. Amen. So

752
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 1: I like to end the podcast with a question that

753
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: comes from my therapy Stay with Me. What else is true? Um?

754
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: And it's based in the community resiliency model, and it's

755
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 1: the idea of both and that if there's something challenging

756
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: going on in my life and I feel that in

757
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 1: a really specific way, where in my body is it

758
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: neutral and positive? What else is true? And even though

759
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: things might be challenging right now in the world and

760
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: in your life, Kimberly, what else is true? For you.

761
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: Oh gosh, oh, I'm afraid to answer this. Okay, So

762
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: recently I've been thinking about how I am a person

763
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: who is deserving of love and care and affection. And

764
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: it is not tied to what I'm producing. It is

765
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 1: not tied to how much money is in my bank account.

766
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: It's not tied to the fact that COVID has shut

767
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 1: down so many of my dreams for this year. That

768
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: I'm valuable just because I am able to move through

769
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 1: the world, and I'm valuable because I'm generous, and I'm

770
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 1: valuable because I'm kind, and I'm so lucky to have

771
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,360
Speaker 1: so many people in my life who make it a

772
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: point to take time out of their day to affirm

773
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 1: that value. Like that's really been getting me through that

774
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,240
Speaker 1: I can just show up as Kim who is sometimes

775
00:43:54,280 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 1: a mess and be worthy. Yeah. I love that. I'm

776
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,400
Speaker 1: a Burnee Brown scholar and stand as everyone knows. And

777
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: one of the things that Brinie brown Um says in

778
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 1: her work is that worthiness is a birthright. Worthiness has

779
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 1: no prerequisite. And that's what came up from me from

780
00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 1: what you just said. And that's so beautiful. That's a

781
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: beautiful what else is true? Thank you? So much, Kimberly.

782
00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:24,479
Speaker 1: Where can people find you on social media? What's going on? Yeah?

783
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: So follow for Harriet on YouTube just type in for

784
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: Harriet for Harriet is also freely active on Instagram for

785
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 1: dot Harriet. I'm all over the internet at Kimberly and

786
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: Foster and Kimberly and Foster dot com. I'm just out

787
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: here just saying stuff, just saying whatever comes to my mind.

788
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:48,359
Speaker 1: I value what you have to say. You have these

789
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: very difficult conversations that are nuanced and for me, very

790
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: very necessary. I'm so honored and I'm so glad we

791
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,839
Speaker 1: got to have this time together. Thank you, Kimberly. Thank

792
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: you to learn. I think get older, I often think

793
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 1: about is there going to be a moment when I'm

794
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 1: sort of put out to pastor particularly as an actress,

795
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 1: dually as a woman. I feel like I look pretty

796
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,840
Speaker 1: good for my age. I'm forty eight years old, and

797
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 1: I think that I have achieved some of the success

798
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: I've achieved because I'm intelligent and because I'm talented. But

799
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: I would be silly to think that, Um, I've been

800
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 1: on all these magazine covers because I, you know, just

801
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,919
Speaker 1: because I'm smart and talented, I think how I look

802
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 1: is a part of what makes me marketable or not marketable.

803
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 1: But I think about it in terms of dating and relationships,

804
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 1: and it's something that I accept, but it's something that

805
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 1: I have a lot of ambivalence about. It's something that

806
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: scares me because people get older, god willing, and I

807
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: know that in an agist, misogynist, transmissive agonist culture that

808
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 1: older women are not often regarded in the same way

809
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: as younger women are. So I hope as I get

810
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: older that you know, my intelligence, my brain will stay

811
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: with me, and my talent will expand as my body changes.

812
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: But I wanted to have this conversation with Kimberly because

813
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 1: she has thoughts on this subject that made me think

814
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: about it differently, and I hope it will make you

815
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: think about the subject differently as well. Thank you for

816
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: listening to The Laverne Cox Show. Join me next week

817
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 1: when I'll be talking to T. S. Madison YouTube sensation,

818
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,919
Speaker 1: media personality, and now the start of her own show

819
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: on we TV, The T. S. Madison Experience. If you

820
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 1: like what you hear, please rate, review, subscribe and share

821
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: with everyone you know. You can find me on Instagram

822
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:58,280
Speaker 1: and Twitter at Laverne Cox and on Facebook at Laverne

823
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:02,279
Speaker 1: Cox for Real. Until next time, stay in the lock.

824
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: The Laverne Cock Show is the production of Shondaland Audio

825
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from

826
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,

827
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.