Speaker 1: M Hi. I'm Ethan Natalman and this is Psychoactive, a
Speaker 1: production of my Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is
Speaker 1: the show where we talk about all things drugs. But
Speaker 1: any views expressed here do not represent those of my
Speaker 1: Heart Media, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed,
Speaker 1: heed as an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they
Speaker 1: may not even represent my own and nothing contained in
Speaker 1: this show should be used as medical advice or encouragement
Speaker 1: to use any type of drouth. One of the most
Speaker 1: popular episodes the Psychoactive to date has been the one
Speaker 1: where I invited my friend Julie Holland to service my
Speaker 1: co host and answer questions with me from you the audience.
Speaker 1: So we're going to record another one of those episodes,
Speaker 1: and we need your questions. Leave us a voicemail with
Speaker 1: a question as detailed as possible at one eight three, three, seven,
Speaker 1: seven nine sixty, or you can record a voice memo
Speaker 1: and send it to Psychoactive at protozoa dot com. I'm
Speaker 1: sure it's going to be a great second go with this. Hello,
Speaker 1: Psychoactive listeners. I find myself these days doing more episodes
Speaker 1: about psychedelics, and I think part of that is just
Speaker 1: I'm so fascinated by everything that's going on in that area.
Speaker 1: Part of it was just attending to conferences on psychedelics
Speaker 1: in Miami and New York at the latter part of
Speaker 1: One of the more remarkable people I met at these
Speaker 1: conferences is a woman named Hanifa Nio Washington. She's the
Speaker 1: co founder and chief strategy officer of the Fireside Project,
Speaker 1: which is the Psychedelic Piers Support Line, which just sounds
Speaker 1: like a great idea to me. It's been written up
Speaker 1: in Rolling Stone, Forbes, Esquire, a whole bunch of other places. Hanifa,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining me today. Thank you. I'm
Speaker 1: so having to be here with you. Ethan. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: good to be doing this. You know, we had to
Speaker 1: keep postponing for all sorts of reasons. I'm glad to
Speaker 1: finally have you on here. So let me just start
Speaker 1: off when I heard about what you were doing and
Speaker 1: met you and the Psychedelic Peer Support Line. Obviously, I'm
Speaker 1: doing episodes about all the sort of research studies and
Speaker 1: the researchers who are looking at psychedelics and people are
Speaker 1: doing ketamine assisted psychotherapy, but you're really operating at a
Speaker 1: different level with the people you're talking about in a
Speaker 1: psychedelic peer support line are essentially people who are doing
Speaker 1: this outside the research setting, doing it quite illegally, even
Speaker 1: if it's nobody's or almost nobody' getting arrested for anymore.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to ask you what exactly is this
Speaker 1: line doing? Who are the people calling? What do they
Speaker 1: understand is going to happen when they call the line? Sure? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So Fire syd Project runs and operates the Psychedelic Peer
Speaker 1: Support Line, and this line is really for anybody who
Speaker 1: is actively tripping, anybody who's a facilitator or in the
Speaker 1: psychedelic space, holding space for others and wanting to support
Speaker 1: and understand processing their trip afterwards. So we're are supporting
Speaker 1: people who are actively tripping, we're s supporting people who
Speaker 1: are supporting other people tripping, and we're supporting people who
Speaker 1: are seeking to process or integrate any past trip. So
Speaker 1: that trip could be last night, or could be a
Speaker 1: trip that happened twenty years ago. And this is a
Speaker 1: service that is free, This is a service that is confidential.
Speaker 1: We feel as we move into this next psychedelic space,
Speaker 1: in history. Here, as we legalize and decriminalize, we have
Speaker 1: to have risk reduction and support. Without risk reduction, the
Speaker 1: decrim movement and legalization, it's maybe taking a step backward
Speaker 1: or moving itself into risky spaces, and so we also
Speaker 1: want to help support people understand psychedelic uses happening. Though
Speaker 1: we do not condone the use of illegal substances or
Speaker 1: want people to be partaking any legal activities, we know
Speaker 1: that people are using more and more, sometimes for the
Speaker 1: first time, and often now in these COVID times, people
Speaker 1: are alone in their apartments wanting to seek healing and relief,
Speaker 1: and we know folks are having more access to it,
Speaker 1: and so at any time, if someone has a phone
Speaker 1: and is in a headspace enough while they are working
Speaker 1: with psychedelics or afterwards, you can call six to Fireside
Speaker 1: from three o'clock PM to three am specific time, and
Speaker 1: an amazing volunteer will be there to support you either
Speaker 1: through call or text, and we provide emotional support. We're
Speaker 1: not replacing emergency services, we're not replacing medical services, and
Speaker 1: we are getting folks calling in. We've just reached a
Speaker 1: fillar mark, which is amazing, and about of our calls
Speaker 1: are people who are actively in a psychedelic experience, and
Speaker 1: I'm roughly about sixty year cent or so of the
Speaker 1: other calls for folks who are integrating our processing and
Speaker 1: past experience. We also get people calling in like print calls,
Speaker 1: we get people wanting information and something that's outside of
Speaker 1: the scope of our line is supporting people pre trip.
Speaker 1: So if someone wants to call in and has a
Speaker 1: question about well how much should I take and can
Speaker 1: I mix these two things together and where should I
Speaker 1: do this and where can I get this, we don't
Speaker 1: provide that type of support. So we're really supporting people
Speaker 1: during and after and really not wanting anyone to be alone.
Speaker 1: We see ourselves as a safety net ensuring that anybody
Speaker 1: who's actively tripping, anybody who needs support afterwards, has at
Speaker 1: least somewhere to call to be supported and without judgment.
Speaker 1: We are seeing people calling from all over the nation.
Speaker 1: We are a nationwide service. We have people calling from
Speaker 1: east coast, west coast, midwest, four corners, all over. We're
Speaker 1: getting calls from all regions of the country. And we definitely,
Speaker 1: like many people, have our eyes and hearts and organ
Speaker 1: and are going to be really doing a big push
Speaker 1: in doing outreach there as organ moves into three with
Speaker 1: implementing Measure one on nine. And if you just explain
Speaker 1: to our audience what Measure one on nine in Oregon
Speaker 1: is the ballot initiative one on nine And Oregon makes
Speaker 1: it legal for there to be psilocybin therapy facilities and facilitators,
Speaker 1: so folks will be able to open clinics or facilities
Speaker 1: that support patients with the use of psilocybin. So this
Speaker 1: measure really is going to have a big impact on
Speaker 1: access to psychedelic therapy with psilocybin as well as impacting
Speaker 1: the entire ecosystem around that in terms of patients coming in, education, awareness, growers,
Speaker 1: and et cetera. Let me ask you this, So tell
Speaker 1: me more about the volunteers. Have all of them done psychedelics?
Speaker 1: Have all of them had at least one bad trip?
Speaker 1: Have all or many of them previously worked on support
Speaker 1: lines suicide hotlines? And are the types of hotlines like that?
Speaker 1: How do you decide who's deciding whether somebody can be
Speaker 1: a volunteer or who are you rejecting? What can you
Speaker 1: tell me? Yeah, when we first started, we were unsure
Speaker 1: who all wild apply for this type of position. It
Speaker 1: is a volunteership. We invite people to volunteer for a year.
Speaker 1: We invite people to volunteer for a four hour shift
Speaker 1: every week at the same time, and we've had over
Speaker 1: four and fifty people apply for what it is to
Speaker 1: be about seventy slots, and we are really looking for
Speaker 1: folks who have various lived experiences, different identities, and who
Speaker 1: ultimately ethan really understand the value of peer support that
Speaker 1: is forced and foremost not everybody has done every or
Speaker 1: has experience with every single psychedelic out there. Right, I
Speaker 1: think it's important that it is uplift and say there's
Speaker 1: no monolitht psychedelic experience. Everyone has different reactions to different
Speaker 1: substances and chemicals and amounts and things like this. But ultimately,
Speaker 1: in our volunteers, we are looking for people who, if
Speaker 1: I was having a really challenging trip experience when I
Speaker 1: called in or we're texted in, is this person able
Speaker 1: to reflect to me and listen to me and hold
Speaker 1: me an unconditional care and non judgment. So we really
Speaker 1: encourage our volunteers to hang their credentials at the door.
Speaker 1: We're not looking for one type of volunteers so we
Speaker 1: do a four day training with our volunteers and it's
Speaker 1: really focused on removing the ego or removing the self
Speaker 1: out of the way. We're not wanting to fix people
Speaker 1: or to guide them. We're not shamans. And in a
Speaker 1: way like this for really peers and peers who have
Speaker 1: had their own experiences, their own life altering experiences or
Speaker 1: transformational experiences, be that with psychedelics or not, and really
Speaker 1: are ready to beat with someone in their journey. And
Speaker 1: so we're with them, we're side by side. We're not
Speaker 1: guiding them to change or not be in a space
Speaker 1: that might be challenging, but we're there to listen, to
Speaker 1: reflect that, to support, to ask questions that matter. And
Speaker 1: it's a really special and I would say sacred experience
Speaker 1: to hold that space for others. And so our volunteers
Speaker 1: also come from all over the world. We accept volunteers
Speaker 1: from all different countries of people in Germany and Australia,
Speaker 1: the UK and Canada, and all across the United States,
Speaker 1: all different ages, all different lived experiences and identities. Some
Speaker 1: folks are deep in the psychedelic space. Some people are
Speaker 1: students and teachers, mothers and parents. So we really don't
Speaker 1: have one type of stereotype or type of character we're
Speaker 1: looking for. But really, at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: it's about is this person able to hold space? Can
Speaker 1: they be with someone in their experience, whether that experience
Speaker 1: is challenging or euphoric, and are they able to also
Speaker 1: grow and be open to growth and feedback and learning
Speaker 1: along the way. Is it safe to assume that all
Speaker 1: of the volunteers have had psycholo experiences? Are almost all
Speaker 1: it's safe to say that all of our volunteers have
Speaker 1: had transformative life experiences, whether they're psychedelic or not. That's
Speaker 1: our volunteers. They apply. The application process is pretty extensive.
Speaker 1: It's the application has a lot of narrative. So we're
Speaker 1: asking questions about mindfulness, We're asking questions about people's experiences
Speaker 1: with life changing and spiritual experiences. We're asking people questions
Speaker 1: about how they hold space for others, and also about
Speaker 1: their basic background education, more history and things like this.
Speaker 1: And so when we say pure support, we mean that
Speaker 1: people who get at people who understand, yes, people have
Speaker 1: had their own psychedelic experiences and or other spiritual or
Speaker 1: transformational experience. Because I would think that if I was
Speaker 1: calling such a line. I'd want somebody who has the
Speaker 1: types of skills and background and disposition understand that you're describing.
Speaker 1: I'd also, you know, hope that person had their own,
Speaker 1: you know, share of bad trips so they could on
Speaker 1: some level empathize. Obviously, bad trips take all sorts of directions.
Speaker 1: I think about two of the bad trips that I had.
Speaker 1: By and large, mushrooms have been my favorite psychedelic and
Speaker 1: most of the experiences have been very good and sometimes
Speaker 1: memorable for decades thereafter. But I think about two where
Speaker 1: I fell into a sort of really you know, deep depression.
Speaker 1: I've never really struggled with depression that much, but when
Speaker 1: I read about her talk about having they'll sometimes describe
Speaker 1: it as like there's black edges around everything, the dark
Speaker 1: side of you can't see the light, you can't see
Speaker 1: the joy. It's all of that. And I handled those experiences.
Speaker 1: I think one time I was at myself. One time
Speaker 1: went with a partner, but I didn't really have somebody
Speaker 1: who was trained to tell me out of that, and
Speaker 1: I used two different approaches. The first time was I
Speaker 1: had some M d m A on hand, and when
Speaker 1: I went into a very dark space, I just took
Speaker 1: the M D M A and that kind of helped
Speaker 1: lifted from a dark place into a light place. And
Speaker 1: the second time it happened was really dark, was on
Speaker 1: a beach and everything was looking like like death and dark,
Speaker 1: and I know you can't run away from a bad trip,
Speaker 1: and so in that time what I did was I
Speaker 1: almost envisioned the bad trip as being like this big
Speaker 1: ominous wave that I couldn't run away from, and where
Speaker 1: I had no alternative but to dive into the belly
Speaker 1: of this big dark wave. And I literally, like in
Speaker 1: my body, I dived into the sand, but figuratively went
Speaker 1: deep into that wave, and and at work that came
Speaker 1: out the other side and the depression lifted, and it
Speaker 1: also it became almost like a one eighty where what
Speaker 1: had been dark and ugly and ominous and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden was becoming beautiful and enlightened. Those are my
Speaker 1: own experiences. I've told that to people when somebody's asking
Speaker 1: in advance, like what happens if it goes in a
Speaker 1: dark place. Those are the types of advice I give.
Speaker 1: But I want to wonder what you think of the
Speaker 1: advice I gave, and whether that's ever the sort of
Speaker 1: advice that your volunteers would be getting. Wow, thanks so
Speaker 1: much for sharing your experience. That sounds really powerful and
Speaker 1: similar to some experiences. But I've also had and I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: this concept of the only way out is through, right,
Speaker 1: It's like, this is happening, it's normal, and we're going
Speaker 1: to get through it. Just so just keep taking the
Speaker 1: breath of the time, step at a time, and just
Speaker 1: keep going. And so absolutely that advice is something similar
Speaker 1: to what we would share the line and have shared
Speaker 1: on the line. And what's so powerful too is and
Speaker 1: you may have heard that in your life of work,
Speaker 1: in your time. We don't believe in bad trips, and
Speaker 1: we are also not like the Bad Trip hotline. So
Speaker 1: we're support line and so we provide emotional support and
Speaker 1: care for folks. And so it's really about listening. So
Speaker 1: if you get called and with this experience you had
Speaker 1: or something, I would be listening to you, I would
Speaker 1: reflect back to you what I heard you say. I
Speaker 1: would share with you. Yes, this feeling of darkness is
Speaker 1: a normal feeling that people experience with psilocybin, and that
Speaker 1: you're okay and that you're going to move through this
Speaker 1: experience I think that when we talk about bad trips,
Speaker 1: we associate darkness with negativity, with feeling uncomfortable with bad
Speaker 1: and there's so much growth and potential and learning and
Speaker 1: possibility in that darkness and in that challenge and in
Speaker 1: that resistance. Really is what that is. And so when
Speaker 1: we allow, and like you said, just allow and just
Speaker 1: go into it, it's magical and beautiful and powerful the
Speaker 1: alchemy and the transmutation that can happen. And so I
Speaker 1: think that people call the line when they are in
Speaker 1: challenging spaces. People call the line when they are in
Speaker 1: a youth for work space and just want to know
Speaker 1: that someone's there with them and that they're tethered right
Speaker 1: to some sense of grounding and reality, and it's really
Speaker 1: quite powerful. I'm really still sitting with what you shared,
Speaker 1: and I just really appreciate it. We'll be talking more
Speaker 1: after we hear this ad. I downloaded your app, the
Speaker 1: fireside a Project app, and I looked at the website
Speaker 1: and I noticed that some of it he's emphasizing as
Speaker 1: you start off by saying we're here to offer emotional support,
Speaker 1: and then a lot of it looks a bit like
Speaker 1: it is written by a lawyer saying it's not medical,
Speaker 1: it's not therapeutic, we're not a suicide hipeline. Here's all
Speaker 1: the things we're not doing. So there's the requisite language
Speaker 1: that a lawyer puts there to say, how are your
Speaker 1: ass and all this sort of stuff, and you have
Speaker 1: to also be upfront with people. But I'm curious when
Speaker 1: it goes into a very difficult place. Have there been
Speaker 1: people who have called the line since you started a
Speaker 1: year or so ago who have really been having suicidal
Speaker 1: ideation or where they'vevolunteer has been worried that this was
Speaker 1: beyond what they were either equipped or allowed to deal with. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: there absolutely have been suicide audition calls on the line,
Speaker 1: and our volunteers do go through a four day training
Speaker 1: and there are things that are inside the scope of
Speaker 1: what we do and there are things that are outside
Speaker 1: of the scope. It's so interesting that you picked up
Speaker 1: on that. There's this sort of two b sides of
Speaker 1: what we're saying in our communication to the world, which
Speaker 1: is we're here promotional support, we're here for you, We're
Speaker 1: glad you're here, and then there's the got to cover
Speaker 1: your ass. These are the hard lines. The other founder
Speaker 1: is background is a lawyer. So interesting, it's just a
Speaker 1: reality that we face right now. We do have to
Speaker 1: be really cleared up front that we're not medical professionals,
Speaker 1: that we are not emergency support staff, and we have
Speaker 1: processes within our protocols to pause calls or stop calls
Speaker 1: and transfer them out if they are moving into space
Speaker 1: where it feels like the Suicide Prevention hot and for example,
Speaker 1: needs to be referred to or urgency services. And it
Speaker 1: has been growing and a challenge because our volunteers are
Speaker 1: very empathetic for the most part and very wanting to help,
Speaker 1: and it's not always a hun percent clear is this
Speaker 1: called moving to a space where this is outside of
Speaker 1: the scope. Is this person who's exhibiting suicidal ideation do
Speaker 1: they have the means? Are they just saying that they
Speaker 1: feel suicidal? So there's a lot of gray area there,
Speaker 1: and we really are very conservative when it comes to
Speaker 1: that because we want people to have the care that
Speaker 1: they need by professionals or by people who can support them.
Speaker 1: And so we have had to transfer calls outside of
Speaker 1: the scope of our line, and we're thankful the National
Speaker 1: Suits of Prevention Hotline. We're thankful for the crisis text line,
Speaker 1: and that we have the means to also within the
Speaker 1: technology do live transfers to emergency services as well. Now
Speaker 1: tell me that we're the volunteers, some of them are
Speaker 1: going through the very conversations. What is happening in terms
Speaker 1: of they're processing it themselves. Are there periodic kind of
Speaker 1: group conversations among the volunteers to process some of the
Speaker 1: conversations they've had, are their therapists who have volunteered to
Speaker 1: assist the volunteers and processing what they had to deal with?
Speaker 1: Or what's the cumultive learning experience for the volunteers once
Speaker 1: you've done this ten times to what extent is there's
Speaker 1: some collaborative process and therapeutic process having among and for
Speaker 1: the volunteers. That's awesome. Question is so interesting. As the
Speaker 1: line launched in April, we went from a very low
Speaker 1: call volume and now we're you know, each week you're
Speaker 1: getting more and more calls, more texts coming through, and
Speaker 1: different types of calls and starting to notice patterns and
Speaker 1: repeat callers and things like this. So we're really learning
Speaker 1: a lot as we go. Without our volunteers the support
Speaker 1: learn when existence so thankful for them and there's a
Speaker 1: lot of support during the shift. So volunteer comes in
Speaker 1: when they log in there at home or in a quiet,
Speaker 1: safe place, they log into the system and then there
Speaker 1: with a team during their shifts. So there's two to
Speaker 1: three other volunteers with them, and then there's a supervisor
Speaker 1: and so the supervisors there to support the volunteers, and
Speaker 1: so there are updates that the supervisor gives folks, but
Speaker 1: they're also like listening to two calls if the volunteer
Speaker 1: needs kind of support, they're giving feedback about their approach
Speaker 1: and also debriefing with either the individual volunteer or with
Speaker 1: the whole squad. So if there was a challenging call
Speaker 1: and the volunteer needs sort of one on one support,
Speaker 1: the supervisor that's on duty does that, and then if
Speaker 1: it makes sense it feels right, the whole team during
Speaker 1: that time will debrief what was going on. And we've
Speaker 1: had community meetings where we bring and invite the entire
Speaker 1: community of volunteers together to share how things are going
Speaker 1: on the line, to share new protocols, just be witnessed
Speaker 1: as they share in process what some of the experiences
Speaker 1: have been like for them on the line. We are
Speaker 1: moving in the space where We've actually just brought on
Speaker 1: a clinical consultant who's going to be available for individuals
Speaker 1: but also to support us building and fortifying our protocols
Speaker 1: as well. And there are spaces where we offer ongoing training.
Speaker 1: We offer looks like a once a month ongoing training.
Speaker 1: It's different things, and sometimes it's some of our volunteers
Speaker 1: offering their expertise and they're really building the communities. One
Speaker 1: of our volunteers offers yoga sessions, there's a meditation session
Speaker 1: you can drop into, and so as we grow, we're
Speaker 1: going to be really building that tool kit of support
Speaker 1: for our volunteers. Before I turned to asking you about
Speaker 1: the Zendel Project, which is the second carm aduction project
Speaker 1: at Burning Man, the last question I wanted to hit
Speaker 1: you with was when you think about the experiences you've
Speaker 1: had as a volunteer taking calls, are there one or
Speaker 1: two that really stand out that you keep coming to
Speaker 1: mind in terms of being particularly intense or profound, or
Speaker 1: would you feel you made an unusual difference or were
Speaker 1: transformed by being in an experience with somebody going from
Speaker 1: love this question, there are two calls that kind of
Speaker 1: stick out for me. One is one of the first
Speaker 1: calls that actually came into the line. So on our
Speaker 1: opening day April fourteen one, the first session, it was
Speaker 1: all three of the founders. We were on shift together
Speaker 1: that day, and the first call that I got it
Speaker 1: was just amazing. So the line opened at like three
Speaker 1: o'clock that day and maybe up three fifteen or so,
Speaker 1: a call came in and it was my first call,
Speaker 1: and there was something just like really euphoric about like,
Speaker 1: my goodness, one minute ago, like this didn't exist and
Speaker 1: now people know about it and our calling in for support.
Speaker 1: And I talked to this young man who's out in
Speaker 1: Seattle and he was processing of heroes dose on psilocybin
Speaker 1: that he had experienced two nights before. And it was
Speaker 1: really powerful to remember my training, to be in that
Speaker 1: reflective space and to be with this person as they
Speaker 1: were just remembering and walking through and trying to understand.
Speaker 1: And what was powerful about it was one just being
Speaker 1: so proud of like, wow, we created this thing and
Speaker 1: people are calling, but also the power of listening without
Speaker 1: interjecting my opinions or thoughts or how powerful that was
Speaker 1: for him. And after about twenty minutes, I really just listened.
Speaker 1: I asked maybe one or two questions, and at the
Speaker 1: end of the call, of which he sort of motivated,
Speaker 1: he was like, this has been great and I feel
Speaker 1: so much better and thank you so much. I feel
Speaker 1: like it's very powerful for him to know that I'm
Speaker 1: not being judged and I'm not crazy. And I can't
Speaker 1: tell you when I'm reading the call logs, because our
Speaker 1: voluntaries fill out callogs after each call summarizing what they
Speaker 1: did and what was going on. How many people sort
Speaker 1: of say this, and we get testimonials right back, people
Speaker 1: saying I felt hurt and seen, and I didn't feel
Speaker 1: judge and I didn't feel like a bad person. So
Speaker 1: it just felt really amazing to do that. And the
Speaker 1: other call was maybe a couple of months ago. I
Speaker 1: took a call from a young woman who was in
Speaker 1: Texas and she was a facilitator and so she worked
Speaker 1: at a facility doing retreat work and she was a spaceholder,
Speaker 1: and she had a heck of a weekend. There was
Speaker 1: a runner, there was drama going on with staff, and
Speaker 1: she just was like, I need to talk to somebody.
Speaker 1: And so it was amazing that she found out about us,
Speaker 1: since she knew we were here and that I could
Speaker 1: sit and provide support and offer my insights to a spaceholder,
Speaker 1: someone who's other holding space for other people, and that
Speaker 1: felt really remarkable and special to me. Thanks for sharing
Speaker 1: those stories. I saw it that you and the others
Speaker 1: have arranged for Fireside project to be evaluated by a
Speaker 1: team at University of California, San Francisco, and so I
Speaker 1: wonder are there any preliminary results is yet from that
Speaker 1: evaluation and when will a more complete suation be forthcoming? Yes,
Speaker 1: so we're so blessed to be able to work with
Speaker 1: UCSF and Dr Joseph's A Mario who is on our board,
Speaker 1: and also having the support of Dr Rachel Yehuda. I
Speaker 1: think that there are definitely poliminary numbers coming out of
Speaker 1: that study. So we have, like we said, after each call,
Speaker 1: we do send out a post call survey, and that's
Speaker 1: what the study is based on. We have about two
Speaker 1: and thirty or so responses, and from that we know
Speaker 1: that of folks who call in or text in feel
Speaker 1: supported and seen. We know that we are impacting folks
Speaker 1: calling the e er or if it wasn't for Fireside,
Speaker 1: I'm about thirty of those folks said they would have
Speaker 1: gone to the r called. And what's interesting about that
Speaker 1: is that when we're on the call with folks, we
Speaker 1: don't necessarily know how intense things are for folks, you know,
Speaker 1: they're not sharing that with us. So they get those
Speaker 1: numbers back is pretty powerful, and then we know the
Speaker 1: rough amount of who's calling in, who's actively tripping, and
Speaker 1: then what substances or psychedelics folks are using. For the
Speaker 1: most part, more than seventy of folks who are calling
Speaker 1: or six are folks who are working with psilocybin. And
Speaker 1: then it goes like psilocybin lsd m DM iwaska and
Speaker 1: then the others, And there's hope. I think that the
Speaker 1: results of the study will be coming out, I think
Speaker 1: before the summer. How about d m T. I'm curious.
Speaker 1: You read about people to take this fifteen minute blast
Speaker 1: to the universe and feel like lifetimes and they come
Speaker 1: back and some don't feel like they're getting back to
Speaker 1: baseline or anything approaching it for quite a while. Have
Speaker 1: you handled any calls like that or do you know
Speaker 1: of other volunteers who have. We have definitely taken some
Speaker 1: calls for people who have ingested d m T in
Speaker 1: various ways and there are a lot of people who
Speaker 1: asked this question a lot will I ever be normal again?
Speaker 1: Or will I come back? It's been two weeks or
Speaker 1: it's been a couple of days, and I just don't
Speaker 1: feel like I did before. And so we're not gonna
Speaker 1: lie to people and say, yes, you're fine, everything's okay,
Speaker 1: and you are going to return back to normal exactly
Speaker 1: the way you were before. We really try to ask
Speaker 1: questions about how do you want to feel, and let's
Speaker 1: talk about what was the experience like and what are
Speaker 1: you noticing? And I think that there are a lot
Speaker 1: of people also doing these things alone by themselves and
Speaker 1: not with a sitter or with a group. And again,
Speaker 1: it feels super important for the support line to be
Speaker 1: there to help people at least sit and reflect. And honestly,
Speaker 1: that's in my opinion, having that time to sit and
Speaker 1: reflect and to be in a place of questioning and
Speaker 1: exploring is where the growth happens, and it also releases
Speaker 1: people from the worry. When I met you a few
Speaker 1: months ago, it's at Miami Wonderland Psychelis conference, around the
Speaker 1: same time I met your co founder White, the lawyer
Speaker 1: turned the Psychedelic Peers support founder. So tell me about
Speaker 1: the origins of that relationship and how this project came
Speaker 1: about in the first place. So Josh and I met
Speaker 1: in out at a place called black Rock City, Burning
Speaker 1: Men in and just a funny, strange story of how
Speaker 1: the desert brings people together. But one of my very
Speaker 1: good friends, her sister, is friends with Josh, and so
Speaker 1: my friend and I went to go visit her sister's
Speaker 1: camp and there was like a small gathering and in
Speaker 1: that gathering, Josh was there and that's where we met.
Speaker 1: And we were with a group of about I don't
Speaker 1: know it twelve or fifteen people, and we all decided
Speaker 1: that we were going to ride our bikes out to
Speaker 1: the playa. And it was at night and folks are
Speaker 1: delighting in various things, and we are on our bikes
Speaker 1: were riding out to the playa, and it became very
Speaker 1: very intense for a bunch of folks, including myself, And
Speaker 1: so there was a fraction of us who decided we
Speaker 1: were to go back to camp because we just couldn't
Speaker 1: be out there. It's just people are just like whizzing
Speaker 1: by on bikes and everything's glowing. And this is my
Speaker 1: first time to Burning Man by the way, six of us,
Speaker 1: we ride our bikes back to camp and just you know,
Speaker 1: are grounding, getting in tune with our set and setting,
Speaker 1: making sure we felt safe and grounded. And can I
Speaker 1: assume you were under the influence of psychelics during this
Speaker 1: bike right at night? You can assume yes, okay? And
Speaker 1: so we come back to camp, and so I was
Speaker 1: there with Josh and we were just just connecting and
Speaker 1: holding space for each other as we explored consciousness and whatnot.
Speaker 1: And that was our kind of first real connection. And
Speaker 1: then we saw each other a few times over the
Speaker 1: course of the week a burning man exchanged information and
Speaker 1: then played a like wicked game phone tag. For about
Speaker 1: a year and last summer we reconnected around the concept
Speaker 1: of what became Fireside Project. Josh is a lawyer and
Speaker 1: also worked many years on a support line or a
Speaker 1: crisis line in San Francisco and thing it's called the
Speaker 1: talk line where I want to say, six or seven
Speaker 1: years a long time, and he really had the idea
Speaker 1: of if there was a support line for psychedelics, and
Speaker 1: what would it also mean to ensure that this type
Speaker 1: of service is available for all people and helped too
Speaker 1: broad in the psychedelic community, and we had all types
Speaker 1: of conversations for several months. First we were meaning like
Speaker 1: every two weeks, and it was like once a week,
Speaker 1: and then it was like we were talking every day
Speaker 1: and just really moving this idea forward and officially joined
Speaker 1: forces as co founders. I want to say, it was
Speaker 1: like August or September something of toy. So what was
Speaker 1: it about your background that brought you to this and
Speaker 1: to this connection with Josh. Was it about a deep
Speaker 1: background in psychedelics or in helping to heal people or
Speaker 1: where were you coming from on this? My interest in
Speaker 1: this was I saw the need for something like this,
Speaker 1: and also a deep part of who I am is
Speaker 1: helping to create healing spaces, so helping to create spaces
Speaker 1: of healing and wellness. In twenty nineteen, I found out
Speaker 1: a project called One Village Healing, which is a bypox
Speaker 1: centered wellness platform, And so we're doing reiky, we're doing meditation,
Speaker 1: we're doing talk groups, we're doing art therapy, and now
Speaker 1: moving towards teaching and educating on psychedelic wellness. And I've
Speaker 1: always had a mind and a heart for what I
Speaker 1: would call sacred activism, and so really helping to support
Speaker 1: creating spaces, creating the means and the infrastructure for folks
Speaker 1: to have access to what brings them alive, and to
Speaker 1: also name and call out the systems and obstructions that
Speaker 1: deter or get in the way of people being most alive. So,
Speaker 1: at my heart of hearts, I am what I always say,
Speaker 1: a sacred activists. How would you define sacred activism? To me,
Speaker 1: sacred activism is using and utilizing the gifts, the innate gifts,
Speaker 1: the tools that one has two support deliberation and healing
Speaker 1: for all and doing that without wanting to seek gain
Speaker 1: or accolades or awards, but because it's the right thing
Speaker 1: to do with your life force. And so for me,
Speaker 1: that includes organizing, it also includes design elements. I'm a
Speaker 1: Rickey Master practitioners also supporting active as well as facilitating,
Speaker 1: so I facilitate on all types of different levels, but
Speaker 1: really bringing groups together and ensuring that people feel hurt
Speaker 1: and seeing that there's a way for ideas also to
Speaker 1: be ideated and then moved into action. You've talked about
Speaker 1: sacred activism, but in terms of what you think about
Speaker 1: sacred activism, what's the role of the psychaelics to me,
Speaker 1: sacred activism is not something that I like made up.
Speaker 1: It's a term that's been used. And when we talk
Speaker 1: about the sacred, we're talking about like spirit, and we're
Speaker 1: talking about interconnectedness, and I'm talking about seeing beyond my
Speaker 1: lifetime and understanding that there's impact on an energetic level
Speaker 1: of what a legacy and like what we do and
Speaker 1: how that might show up years and generations from now.
Speaker 1: And in my experience within the psychedelic space, it is
Speaker 1: for me been psychedelics that have opened my eyes and
Speaker 1: heart two that type of reality and work, and that
Speaker 1: have helped me see and feel that I have bigger
Speaker 1: work to do that's not just for me, and that's
Speaker 1: not about building a career, but it's about helping to
Speaker 1: support the world and the planet and the humanity generations on.
Speaker 1: I read in looking at your background that you spent
Speaker 1: quite a number of years some years ago working at
Speaker 1: and ultimately directing a project called Amistad America. And Amistad
Speaker 1: was the famous the slave ship back in the eighteen
Speaker 1: thirties or forties where the Africans who have been slaved
Speaker 1: overthrew the captain and the sailors and landed up sailing
Speaker 1: into the US and being captured, and somehow the Amistade
Speaker 1: showed up in my early years as an academic writing
Speaker 1: about the internationalization from the law enforcement, and it was
Speaker 1: a remarkable moment when other governments were trying to extradite
Speaker 1: the Africans who had revolted, and this thing went to
Speaker 1: the U. S. Supreme Court, and it was one of
Speaker 1: the I think more elevated moments in the history of
Speaker 1: the abolition movement, with the Supreme Court actually ruled in
Speaker 1: favor of the Africans who had been enslaved. But I
Speaker 1: wonder what was that Amistad American project and what was
Speaker 1: the connection, if you can think about this, between your
Speaker 1: work on that and the work that you're doing now. Yes,
Speaker 1: thank you for going there and bringing that forward. I
Speaker 1: love history and I love the process of remembering that
Speaker 1: we are all here, that we're all equal, and that
Speaker 1: we're here to live our fullest lives. And my time
Speaker 1: with Amiston was remarkable and intense, to say the least.
Speaker 1: And I was a part of the crew for many years.
Speaker 1: So I was a cook and one of the head
Speaker 1: educators and became the director of education and then the
Speaker 1: enterim executive director towards the end, and I really believed
Speaker 1: in the mission of Amiston America, which was about utilizing
Speaker 1: the ship. So it was a replica of Amistad Lamistad,
Speaker 1: and the ship was the US Coasts certified, had all
Speaker 1: the modern day things, a crew of fifteen and literally
Speaker 1: its goal was to transverse the triangle of trade in
Speaker 1: real time and along the way to teach about the
Speaker 1: history of Alamistad and also to talk about how racism
Speaker 1: and white supremacy exists still today and help people remember
Speaker 1: their role in combating and fighting that. And so we
Speaker 1: selled all over The ship sells to England, it's selled
Speaker 1: to Serra Leone, It's selled throughout the Caribbean, to South Carolina,
Speaker 1: all the way up and down the Eastern seaboard up
Speaker 1: to Nova Scotia. At really teaching this history thousands of
Speaker 1: people every year. And I do see my life when
Speaker 1: I look back at my life and the experiences that
Speaker 1: I've had, that it is moving in a direction towards
Speaker 1: in my own personal life, be the more free, having
Speaker 1: more liberation, helping people to have that, and not forgetting
Speaker 1: that there are disparities, not forgetting for whatever privileges one
Speaker 1: might have that there is bigger work to do and
Speaker 1: that it's all of our responsibility to move that forward,
Speaker 1: and that for me it is like what we should
Speaker 1: be up to. And so I carry the work of
Speaker 1: liberation from my work with Amastad. For sure, it have
Speaker 1: carried that into my own personal work and into the
Speaker 1: work that I've done for about seven or ten years
Speaker 1: now around working with nonprofits and community serving organizations to
Speaker 1: support those organizations to be better, to help people understand
Speaker 1: what power disparities are happening within their organization and how
Speaker 1: to reimagine and reconstruct the those systems. So I've done
Speaker 1: a lot of work around diversity, equity and systems change work,
Speaker 1: and I feel I get to bring my Ricky mastership,
Speaker 1: I get to bring my facilitation, I get to bring
Speaker 1: my liberation work. I get to bring my art and
Speaker 1: design work into this psychedelic arena. Something that I kept
Speaker 1: hidden for a long time from my loved ones and
Speaker 1: my community members. I didn't share that I have had
Speaker 1: psychedelic experiences that I sit in ceremony that it's a
Speaker 1: part of my healing and I'm wanting to as part
Speaker 1: of my work with Fireside Project, help people understand, particularly
Speaker 1: brown and black folks and those who have been traditionally
Speaker 1: marginalized in this country, that there is possibility and for
Speaker 1: deep healing with psychedelics, and that it is available, that
Speaker 1: it is possible, and that it is our history right
Speaker 1: and it is our our birthright to it. So we're
Speaker 1: really helping or have a vision to help broaden the
Speaker 1: arena or broaden who is in the psychedelic space. So
Speaker 1: we have plans for launching an equity plan this year,
Speaker 1: just very citing, so are volunteers who are coming from
Speaker 1: under resource communities or traditionally marginalized communities will have access
Speaker 1: to an equity fund to continue to further their education
Speaker 1: and training within the psychedelic space. We are also launching
Speaker 1: an Affinity Cohort program which will be volunteers who come
Speaker 1: from the bipop communities as well as the veterans, military
Speaker 1: veterans and trance communities to be on call for integration
Speaker 1: calls for people who come from those identities. We know
Speaker 1: people aren't a monolith identity, but it's our step forward
Speaker 1: and offering choice and power sharing and so those folks
Speaker 1: will support people who share those identities. So, say you've
Speaker 1: had a psychedelic experience, and you really want to integrate,
Speaker 1: and you really want to talk to somebody who shares
Speaker 1: with that identity. So as a black woman, I want
Speaker 1: to talk to somebody who's black. I now, you know
Speaker 1: that we're going to be launching this in June, can
Speaker 1: call or text and say, hey, I would like to
Speaker 1: speak with someone from this identity to do an integration call.
Speaker 1: That's going to be available, and that's just the beginning.
Speaker 1: We also want to again resource those volunteers to have
Speaker 1: access to the Equity Fund so that if they want,
Speaker 1: they can continue their training and education within the psychedelic space,
Speaker 1: so they can be leading research, so they can be
Speaker 1: become facilitators, so they can be writing the books, so
Speaker 1: they can be writing the articles, and really expanding who
Speaker 1: is in the psychedelic space, because right now it is
Speaker 1: predominantly why predominantly male lead. And I know in my
Speaker 1: heart that the people who have suffered a lot, and
Speaker 1: maybe the most in this country are those who are
Speaker 1: coming from communities that are enslaved, communities that were persecuted,
Speaker 1: communities that don't have wealth. And it is a deep
Speaker 1: desire to ensure that their pathways for as many of
Speaker 1: those people to have access us too, psychedelics and the
Speaker 1: healing that egg can offer. Let's take a break here
Speaker 1: and go to an agg If you look at the
Speaker 1: latest local ballot initiatives to decriminalize psychedelics. Two of the
Speaker 1: places that happened, we're in d C, which is half black,
Speaker 1: and Detroit, which I guess is where you're from, which
Speaker 1: is three quarters black. So you know, you put these
Speaker 1: popular initiatives and people are voting for them, and you're
Speaker 1: beginning to see some famous black people more like in sports,
Speaker 1: I mean Mike Tyson with his Toad medicine experience, the
Speaker 1: or the NBA star lamar Ow talking about his experience
Speaker 1: with some of this sort of stuff. So we're beginning
Speaker 1: to see it. Why has there been this kind of
Speaker 1: psychedelics renaissance emerging? And I oftentimes credit Rick Doblin and
Speaker 1: Maps and all their work, and I credit that their
Speaker 1: network of researchers who are doing this sort of stuff.
Speaker 1: And then I credit also, I think Michael Pollen with
Speaker 1: this kind of breakthrough crossover book that many people have
Speaker 1: never done psycholics are reading. But I've been thinking about it.
Speaker 1: The other key thing is when you have guys like
Speaker 1: podcast hosts like Joe Rogan or Tim Ferris or Sam Harris,
Speaker 1: who have huge reach, each reaching different communities, but millions
Speaker 1: tensibly as the people, and people are just tuning into
Speaker 1: them because they like listening to these guys in their guests.
Speaker 1: Is there anybody out there in a prominent way among
Speaker 1: black media folk who are doing what's ay Rogan or
Speaker 1: Harris or Ferris are doing or anything resembling that as yet,
Speaker 1: because it seems that might make a significant difference, I
Speaker 1: would have to say no, not yet. Anyway, there's a
Speaker 1: carefulness that I believe that black folks have to have
Speaker 1: when transversing things that are illegal. So there's a privilege
Speaker 1: right that we don't have or don't act upon when
Speaker 1: it comes to openly talking about the use and using
Speaker 1: psychedelics because of their legal status. And so I know
Speaker 1: that there's also a very healthy underground that, in my
Speaker 1: experience is full of brown and black folks who have
Speaker 1: whole systems and networks and are providing support, are growing,
Speaker 1: are distributing, are sitting in ceremony. So there's a I think,
Speaker 1: a desire to see more people above ground who aren't
Speaker 1: sort of holding the banner. And I think that there
Speaker 1: are and has been historically people of color utilizing psychedelics
Speaker 1: for a long time, but people aren't just out about it.
Speaker 1: They're not on the radio or writing articles are being
Speaker 1: public because of the legalities. The work that you're doing
Speaker 1: and a few others are doing is very important. And
Speaker 1: I see some of the folks who black people who
Speaker 1: go to Burning Man are talking out a bit. And
Speaker 1: I saw Jada Pinkett Smith doing an interview right about
Speaker 1: her psycholics use, so the words getting out and I
Speaker 1: understand what you're saying about the reservations, right. The fact
Speaker 1: that blacks have been dispersonally targeted by the drug war
Speaker 1: and more vulnerable all makes sense. But nonetheless, I think
Speaker 1: sometimes in the way that Michael Pollen played a key role,
Speaker 1: or you think about the role that Michelle Alexander when
Speaker 1: she wrote her book The New Gym Crow. It was
Speaker 1: other people who been making similar arguments, but Michelle stood
Speaker 1: out with a book the right time, the right place,
Speaker 1: the right person, framing the argument in a way that
Speaker 1: put it together that really is catapulted things forward. I
Speaker 1: remember when Black Lives Matter emerged a number of years ago.
Speaker 1: One of the things that was so inspiring for me
Speaker 1: is that I saw it from where I was sitting
Speaker 1: as almost one of the first sort of black civil
Speaker 1: rights manifestations that was fully embracing more or less the
Speaker 1: totality of drug policy reform and becoming our uninhibited allies
Speaker 1: on drug policy reform. Now, the psychelic piece wasn't really
Speaker 1: part of that discussion, but I think we need that
Speaker 1: sort of weaving together of different strands of drug policy reform,
Speaker 1: social justice, criminal justice with the psychedelics area. Yes, when
Speaker 1: I was first coming into a butt like into this
Speaker 1: space or people wanting me to speak and whatever, and
Speaker 1: I would get these questions about what do we need
Speaker 1: to do to have more brown and like people in
Speaker 1: the psychedelic movement and how's the movement? And I was like,
Speaker 1: what movement? There's a psychedelic movement. It was very curious
Speaker 1: language to me, because when I think about movement work,
Speaker 1: I was like, has this movement been going on since
Speaker 1: the sixties? Like when't this movement start? And who's leading in?
Speaker 1: What are the objectives and what are we asking for.
Speaker 1: I think that there's a lot of different lenses and
Speaker 1: a lot of different opinions about what the psychedelic spaces
Speaker 1: or movement or indra street people are putting it in
Speaker 1: all these different buckets, and so I think that there's
Speaker 1: a lot to be said around how do we really
Speaker 1: move things forward in an active way and help to
Speaker 1: amplify the objectives of all the goals of these different pieces.
Speaker 1: To me, ultimately, all movements are one movement. It's about liberation.
Speaker 1: Everything is moving people toward greater liberation, greater freedom, greater
Speaker 1: access to be resourced to be healthy, whole and happy.
Speaker 1: And yes, I'm all about how do we pull in
Speaker 1: psychedelics into the conversation when we're talking about social justice
Speaker 1: so that it's not taboo or dangerous, but actually as
Speaker 1: a tool for our well being as round and black
Speaker 1: folks in this country. I mean, I tell you when
Speaker 1: people would ask me who is the drug policy reform movement,
Speaker 1: and one of my answers to that would be, it's
Speaker 1: the people who are there, and it's your showing up
Speaker 1: in this space in the last year or two is
Speaker 1: making a difference and other people beginning to show up.
Speaker 1: And I think we think about indigenous folks, we think
Speaker 1: about Native Americans in Peyote, we think about ayahuasca and
Speaker 1: Latin American all of this. There's also with Eboga and
Speaker 1: the weety tradition in West Africa. So it's not as
Speaker 1: if this is entirely alien. In fact, some of this
Speaker 1: tradition comes from the same part of the world where
Speaker 1: many African Americans who came here in shackles originally came from.
Speaker 1: All of our people come from land folks. We all
Speaker 1: come from folks who had tribes. We all come from people. Literally,
Speaker 1: Like why we created Fireside project of the name is
Speaker 1: that for millennia people have been gathering around the fireside
Speaker 1: in ceremony and healing in community. We all come from
Speaker 1: people who utilized medicine, plant medicines, whether they be psychedelic
Speaker 1: or not, for our healing and our advancement. And so
Speaker 1: it's a reclamation. And we live in a global society now,
Speaker 1: so we don't have to just be like, Okay, you
Speaker 1: came from this country or these regions and so you
Speaker 1: can only use this. But it's like, how do we
Speaker 1: have reciprocity, like you're lifting, how do we acknowledge our
Speaker 1: roots and understand that like this isn't foreign or alien
Speaker 1: to us. And there's so much around education that needs
Speaker 1: to be done in a deep and powerful way about
Speaker 1: undoing from the war on drugs and not just facts
Speaker 1: and figures, but like and as somatic and in our body.
Speaker 1: And then how do we build true relationship again with
Speaker 1: psychedelics in a way that is helpful to us and
Speaker 1: for generations to come. Yeah. Yeah, I feel optimistic about
Speaker 1: where this is headed. And I just thinking especially on
Speaker 1: the issue of more black people showing up and being
Speaker 1: part of this in the way that you have, and
Speaker 1: then some of the major figures in sports and entertainment
Speaker 1: making a difference. I do hope a book is going
Speaker 1: to be forthcoming one of these years about Black people
Speaker 1: in psychedelics that be early begins to tie it all
Speaker 1: together in terms of the ways that you've been doing.
Speaker 1: In our conversation when you were speaking, the person who
Speaker 1: came to my mind immediately. I saw her speak a
Speaker 1: couple of times, and I'm so grateful in my life
Speaker 1: is Dr Droid de Grew. Her work has been really
Speaker 1: foundational to how I view and think about systems and
Speaker 1: how they can change. And I remember her talking and
Speaker 1: she was sharing a story, and one of the things
Speaker 1: that she shared was like, you gotta find your lane
Speaker 1: doing movement work and system stage work, Find your lane
Speaker 1: and stay there, any lane, and stay in it, and
Speaker 1: then just go. And I think about that often. I
Speaker 1: think about that often as a resentering, as fuel um
Speaker 1: to continue my sacred activism. And I think about, Okay, now,
Speaker 1: what if I don't stay in my lane? What if
Speaker 1: I want to go in this lane over here? I
Speaker 1: want to be in this lane over So see if
Speaker 1: I'm swerving and switching lanes every five minutes or whatever?
Speaker 1: Am I also been laboring someone else? Am I slowing
Speaker 1: down the movement because I can't decide what lane I
Speaker 1: want to be in and how I want to contribute?
Speaker 1: And so for me, I think about, there has been
Speaker 1: war and turmoil for humanity from the beginning, however far
Speaker 1: you want to go back, And I think where we
Speaker 1: are now, I truly believe that we need constant resiliency work,
Speaker 1: physical resilience, spiritual resilience to stay. If you're showing up
Speaker 1: to change, if your eyes are open and you can
Speaker 1: see that these systems are broken, how do we build
Speaker 1: new ones? How do we build access? And so for me,
Speaker 1: I think those who have decided to be in the
Speaker 1: space of a psychedelic healing and psychedelic wellness. No, it's
Speaker 1: not a luxury to me. It is about creating awareness
Speaker 1: and pathways in access and educating people about not only
Speaker 1: the science of psychedelics but also about how they can
Speaker 1: help and support in the long term ones spiritual and
Speaker 1: physical resilience. And it's also about this idea of coalition
Speaker 1: building and no, that psychedelics aren't a monolith, that they
Speaker 1: must work in tandem with other tools and with other movements.
Speaker 1: And I'm someone who can do many things well and
Speaker 1: have struggled, and I've been that person swerving on the
Speaker 1: highway between lanes, the highway of life. I want to
Speaker 1: do this, I want to do this, do this, And
Speaker 1: so I feel like I have arrived in a very
Speaker 1: outweigh about being an advocate and an activist for access
Speaker 1: to healing spaces, including psychedelics or use of psychedelics. And
Speaker 1: I think if I had advice for other people who
Speaker 1: are listening, it's be aware that systems are broken and
Speaker 1: ship's fucked up, and that there's work to do. Choose
Speaker 1: what work you want to do and do it well
Speaker 1: and keep yourself fortified and healthy. Good parting words ANIFA
Speaker 1: to listen. Thanks so much, I'm going to send in
Speaker 1: my contribution to Fireside Project now that you've been on here,
Speaker 1: and I just want to wish you and your co
Speaker 1: founder Josh White, and all the volunteers and others involved
Speaker 1: with this project more power to you. I hope it
Speaker 1: grows and grows beautifully. I hope the evaluations come back
Speaker 1: powerfully and the word gets out, and I hope you
Speaker 1: find yourself leading and helping people enter this space who
Speaker 1: just a year or two ago would not have imagined
Speaker 1: entering it, but really need to be, and that good
Speaker 1: things will happen there. So thank you, thank you. If
Speaker 1: you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it, or
Speaker 1: you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear from
Speaker 1: our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories,
Speaker 1: comments and ideas, then leave us a message at one
Speaker 1: eight three three seven seven nine sixty that's eight three
Speaker 1: three psycho zero, or you can email us at Psychoactive
Speaker 1: at protozoa dot com, or find me on Twitter at
Speaker 1: Ethan Natalman. You can also find contact information in our
Speaker 1: show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart Radio
Speaker 1: and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman. It's
Speaker 1: produced by no h'm osband and Josh Stain. The executive
Speaker 1: producers are Hillen Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren
Speaker 1: Aronotsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from
Speaker 1: My Heart Radio and me Ethan Edelman. Our music is
Speaker 1: by Ari Blucien and Especial thanks to a Brio, s
Speaker 1: F Bianca Grimshaw and Robert BP. Next week, join me
Speaker 1: for my conversation with Professor Philippe Bouguas, the brilliant and
Speaker 1: courageous ethnographer who studied drug users and drug dealers for
Speaker 1: almost forty years, including almost twenty hanging out with crack
Speaker 1: dealers in East Haarlem in Philadelphia. Every single large and
Speaker 1: even small American city has a phenomenon of a of
Speaker 1: a racially and class divided set of segregated poverty, and
Speaker 1: that is not normal. I wanted to show what its
Speaker 1: effect is on the people scrambling to survive. Subscribe to
Speaker 1: Cycleactive now see it, don't miss it.