1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: M Hi. I'm Ethan Natalman and this is Psychoactive, a 2 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: production of my Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is 3 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: the show where we talk about all things drugs. But 4 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: any views expressed here do not represent those of my 5 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 1: Heart Media, Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, 6 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: heed as an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they 7 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: may not even represent my own and nothing contained in 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: this show should be used as medical advice or encouragement 9 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: to use any type of drouth. One of the most 10 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: popular episodes the Psychoactive to date has been the one 11 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: where I invited my friend Julie Holland to service my 12 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: co host and answer questions with me from you the audience. 13 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: So we're going to record another one of those episodes, 14 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: and we need your questions. Leave us a voicemail with 15 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: a question as detailed as possible at one eight three, three, seven, 16 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: seven nine sixty, or you can record a voice memo 17 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: and send it to Psychoactive at protozoa dot com. I'm 18 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: sure it's going to be a great second go with this. Hello, 19 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 1: Psychoactive listeners. I find myself these days doing more episodes 20 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: about psychedelics, and I think part of that is just 21 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 1: I'm so fascinated by everything that's going on in that area. 22 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: Part of it was just attending to conferences on psychedelics 23 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: in Miami and New York at the latter part of 24 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: One of the more remarkable people I met at these 25 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: conferences is a woman named Hanifa Nio Washington. She's the 26 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: co founder and chief strategy officer of the Fireside Project, 27 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: which is the Psychedelic Piers Support Line, which just sounds 28 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: like a great idea to me. It's been written up 29 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: in Rolling Stone, Forbes, Esquire, a whole bunch of other places. Hanifa, 30 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining me today. Thank you. I'm 31 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: so having to be here with you. Ethan. Yeah, it's 32 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: good to be doing this. You know, we had to 33 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: keep postponing for all sorts of reasons. I'm glad to 34 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: finally have you on here. So let me just start 35 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: off when I heard about what you were doing and 36 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: met you and the Psychedelic Peer Support Line. Obviously, I'm 37 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: doing episodes about all the sort of research studies and 38 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: the researchers who are looking at psychedelics and people are 39 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: doing ketamine assisted psychotherapy, but you're really operating at a 40 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: different level with the people you're talking about in a 41 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 1: psychedelic peer support line are essentially people who are doing 42 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: this outside the research setting, doing it quite illegally, even 43 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: if it's nobody's or almost nobody' getting arrested for anymore. 44 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,399 Speaker 1: So I wanted to ask you what exactly is this 45 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: line doing? Who are the people calling? What do they 46 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: understand is going to happen when they call the line? Sure? Yeah, 47 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 1: So Fire syd Project runs and operates the Psychedelic Peer 48 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: Support Line, and this line is really for anybody who 49 00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: is actively tripping, anybody who's a facilitator or in the 50 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: psychedelic space, holding space for others and wanting to support 51 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: and understand processing their trip afterwards. So we're are supporting 52 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: people who are actively tripping, we're s supporting people who 53 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: are supporting other people tripping, and we're supporting people who 54 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: are seeking to process or integrate any past trip. So 55 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: that trip could be last night, or could be a 56 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: trip that happened twenty years ago. And this is a 57 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: service that is free, This is a service that is confidential. 58 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: We feel as we move into this next psychedelic space, 59 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: in history. Here, as we legalize and decriminalize, we have 60 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: to have risk reduction and support. Without risk reduction, the 61 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: decrim movement and legalization, it's maybe taking a step backward 62 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: or moving itself into risky spaces, and so we also 63 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: want to help support people understand psychedelic uses happening. Though 64 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: we do not condone the use of illegal substances or 65 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: want people to be partaking any legal activities, we know 66 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 1: that people are using more and more, sometimes for the 67 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 1: first time, and often now in these COVID times, people 68 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: are alone in their apartments wanting to seek healing and relief, 69 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: and we know folks are having more access to it, 70 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: and so at any time, if someone has a phone 71 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: and is in a headspace enough while they are working 72 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: with psychedelics or afterwards, you can call six to Fireside 73 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 1: from three o'clock PM to three am specific time, and 74 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: an amazing volunteer will be there to support you either 75 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 1: through call or text, and we provide emotional support. We're 76 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: not replacing emergency services, we're not replacing medical services, and 77 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: we are getting folks calling in. We've just reached a 78 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 1: fillar mark, which is amazing, and about of our calls 79 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: are people who are actively in a psychedelic experience, and 80 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 1: I'm roughly about sixty year cent or so of the 81 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: other calls for folks who are integrating our processing and 82 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: past experience. We also get people calling in like print calls, 83 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 1: we get people wanting information and something that's outside of 84 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 1: the scope of our line is supporting people pre trip. 85 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:09,720 Speaker 1: So if someone wants to call in and has a 86 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: question about well how much should I take and can 87 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: I mix these two things together and where should I 88 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: do this and where can I get this, we don't 89 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: provide that type of support. So we're really supporting people 90 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: during and after and really not wanting anyone to be alone. 91 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: We see ourselves as a safety net ensuring that anybody 92 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 1: who's actively tripping, anybody who needs support afterwards, has at 93 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: least somewhere to call to be supported and without judgment. 94 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: We are seeing people calling from all over the nation. 95 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: We are a nationwide service. We have people calling from 96 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: east coast, west coast, midwest, four corners, all over. We're 97 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: getting calls from all regions of the country. And we definitely, 98 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: like many people, have our eyes and hearts and organ 99 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: and are going to be really doing a big push 100 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 1: in doing outreach there as organ moves into three with 101 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: implementing Measure one on nine. And if you just explain 102 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: to our audience what Measure one on nine in Oregon 103 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: is the ballot initiative one on nine And Oregon makes 104 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: it legal for there to be psilocybin therapy facilities and facilitators, 105 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: so folks will be able to open clinics or facilities 106 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: that support patients with the use of psilocybin. So this 107 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: measure really is going to have a big impact on 108 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: access to psychedelic therapy with psilocybin as well as impacting 109 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 1: the entire ecosystem around that in terms of patients coming in, education, awareness, growers, 110 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: and et cetera. Let me ask you this, So tell 111 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 1: me more about the volunteers. Have all of them done psychedelics? 112 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: Have all of them had at least one bad trip? 113 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: Have all or many of them previously worked on support 114 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: lines suicide hotlines? And are the types of hotlines like that? 115 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 1: How do you decide who's deciding whether somebody can be 116 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: a volunteer or who are you rejecting? What can you 117 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: tell me? Yeah, when we first started, we were unsure 118 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: who all wild apply for this type of position. It 119 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: is a volunteership. We invite people to volunteer for a year. 120 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: We invite people to volunteer for a four hour shift 121 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: every week at the same time, and we've had over 122 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: four and fifty people apply for what it is to 123 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: be about seventy slots, and we are really looking for 124 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: folks who have various lived experiences, different identities, and who 125 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: ultimately ethan really understand the value of peer support that 126 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: is forced and foremost not everybody has done every or 127 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: has experience with every single psychedelic out there. Right, I 128 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: think it's important that it is uplift and say there's 129 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: no monolitht psychedelic experience. Everyone has different reactions to different 130 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: substances and chemicals and amounts and things like this. But ultimately, 131 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: in our volunteers, we are looking for people who, if 132 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: I was having a really challenging trip experience when I 133 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: called in or we're texted in, is this person able 134 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,559 Speaker 1: to reflect to me and listen to me and hold 135 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: me an unconditional care and non judgment. So we really 136 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: encourage our volunteers to hang their credentials at the door. 137 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,559 Speaker 1: We're not looking for one type of volunteers so we 138 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: do a four day training with our volunteers and it's 139 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: really focused on removing the ego or removing the self 140 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: out of the way. We're not wanting to fix people 141 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:36,599 Speaker 1: or to guide them. We're not shamans. And in a 142 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 1: way like this for really peers and peers who have 143 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 1: had their own experiences, their own life altering experiences or 144 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: transformational experiences, be that with psychedelics or not, and really 145 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: are ready to beat with someone in their journey. And 146 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: so we're with them, we're side by side. We're not 147 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 1: guiding them to change or not be in a space 148 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: that might be challenging, but we're there to listen, to 149 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: reflect that, to support, to ask questions that matter. And 150 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: it's a really special and I would say sacred experience 151 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: to hold that space for others. And so our volunteers 152 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,599 Speaker 1: also come from all over the world. We accept volunteers 153 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: from all different countries of people in Germany and Australia, 154 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,959 Speaker 1: the UK and Canada, and all across the United States, 155 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: all different ages, all different lived experiences and identities. Some 156 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: folks are deep in the psychedelic space. Some people are 157 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,559 Speaker 1: students and teachers, mothers and parents. So we really don't 158 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: have one type of stereotype or type of character we're 159 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: looking for. But really, at the end of the day, 160 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: it's about is this person able to hold space? Can 161 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: they be with someone in their experience, whether that experience 162 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: is challenging or euphoric, and are they able to also 163 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: grow and be open to growth and feedback and learning 164 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: along the way. Is it safe to assume that all 165 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: of the volunteers have had psycholo experiences? Are almost all 166 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: it's safe to say that all of our volunteers have 167 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: had transformative life experiences, whether they're psychedelic or not. That's 168 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: our volunteers. They apply. The application process is pretty extensive. 169 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,199 Speaker 1: It's the application has a lot of narrative. So we're 170 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: asking questions about mindfulness, We're asking questions about people's experiences 171 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: with life changing and spiritual experiences. We're asking people questions 172 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 1: about how they hold space for others, and also about 173 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: their basic background education, more history and things like this. 174 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: And so when we say pure support, we mean that 175 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: people who get at people who understand, yes, people have 176 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:47,079 Speaker 1: had their own psychedelic experiences and or other spiritual or 177 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: transformational experience. Because I would think that if I was 178 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 1: calling such a line. I'd want somebody who has the 179 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: types of skills and background and disposition understand that you're describing. 180 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 1: I'd also, you know, hope that person had their own, 181 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: you know, share of bad trips so they could on 182 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,319 Speaker 1: some level empathize. Obviously, bad trips take all sorts of directions. 183 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: I think about two of the bad trips that I had. 184 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: By and large, mushrooms have been my favorite psychedelic and 185 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 1: most of the experiences have been very good and sometimes 186 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: memorable for decades thereafter. But I think about two where 187 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 1: I fell into a sort of really you know, deep depression. 188 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: I've never really struggled with depression that much, but when 189 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: I read about her talk about having they'll sometimes describe 190 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 1: it as like there's black edges around everything, the dark 191 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: side of you can't see the light, you can't see 192 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: the joy. It's all of that. And I handled those experiences. 193 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: I think one time I was at myself. One time 194 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: went with a partner, but I didn't really have somebody 195 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 1: who was trained to tell me out of that, and 196 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: I used two different approaches. The first time was I 197 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: had some M d m A on hand, and when 198 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: I went into a very dark space, I just took 199 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: the M D M A and that kind of helped 200 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: lifted from a dark place into a light place. And 201 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: the second time it happened was really dark, was on 202 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: a beach and everything was looking like like death and dark, 203 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 1: and I know you can't run away from a bad trip, 204 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 1: and so in that time what I did was I 205 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: almost envisioned the bad trip as being like this big 206 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: ominous wave that I couldn't run away from, and where 207 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: I had no alternative but to dive into the belly 208 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,319 Speaker 1: of this big dark wave. And I literally, like in 209 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: my body, I dived into the sand, but figuratively went 210 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: deep into that wave, and and at work that came 211 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 1: out the other side and the depression lifted, and it 212 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 1: also it became almost like a one eighty where what 213 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,719 Speaker 1: had been dark and ugly and ominous and all of 214 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: a sudden was becoming beautiful and enlightened. Those are my 215 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: own experiences. I've told that to people when somebody's asking 216 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: in advance, like what happens if it goes in a 217 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: dark place. Those are the types of advice I give. 218 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 1: But I want to wonder what you think of the 219 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: advice I gave, and whether that's ever the sort of 220 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 1: advice that your volunteers would be getting. Wow, thanks so 221 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: much for sharing your experience. That sounds really powerful and 222 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: similar to some experiences. But I've also had and I think, yeah, 223 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: this concept of the only way out is through, right, 224 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: It's like, this is happening, it's normal, and we're going 225 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: to get through it. Just so just keep taking the 226 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: breath of the time, step at a time, and just 227 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: keep going. And so absolutely that advice is something similar 228 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: to what we would share the line and have shared 229 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: on the line. And what's so powerful too is and 230 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: you may have heard that in your life of work, 231 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: in your time. We don't believe in bad trips, and 232 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,439 Speaker 1: we are also not like the Bad Trip hotline. So 233 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: we're support line and so we provide emotional support and 234 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: care for folks. And so it's really about listening. So 235 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: if you get called and with this experience you had 236 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: or something, I would be listening to you, I would 237 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 1: reflect back to you what I heard you say. I 238 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: would share with you. Yes, this feeling of darkness is 239 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: a normal feeling that people experience with psilocybin, and that 240 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: you're okay and that you're going to move through this 241 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: experience I think that when we talk about bad trips, 242 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: we associate darkness with negativity, with feeling uncomfortable with bad 243 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: and there's so much growth and potential and learning and 244 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: possibility in that darkness and in that challenge and in 245 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: that resistance. Really is what that is. And so when 246 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:36,640 Speaker 1: we allow, and like you said, just allow and just 247 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: go into it, it's magical and beautiful and powerful the 248 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: alchemy and the transmutation that can happen. And so I 249 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: think that people call the line when they are in 250 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: challenging spaces. People call the line when they are in 251 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: a youth for work space and just want to know 252 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: that someone's there with them and that they're tethered right 253 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: to some sense of grounding and reality, and it's really 254 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: quite powerful. I'm really still sitting with what you shared, 255 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: and I just really appreciate it. We'll be talking more 256 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: after we hear this ad. I downloaded your app, the 257 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: fireside a Project app, and I looked at the website 258 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: and I noticed that some of it he's emphasizing as 259 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: you start off by saying we're here to offer emotional support, 260 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: and then a lot of it looks a bit like 261 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 1: it is written by a lawyer saying it's not medical, 262 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: it's not therapeutic, we're not a suicide hipeline. Here's all 263 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: the things we're not doing. So there's the requisite language 264 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: that a lawyer puts there to say, how are your 265 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: ass and all this sort of stuff, and you have 266 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: to also be upfront with people. But I'm curious when 267 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: it goes into a very difficult place. Have there been 268 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: people who have called the line since you started a 269 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: year or so ago who have really been having suicidal 270 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: ideation or where they'vevolunteer has been worried that this was 271 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: beyond what they were either equipped or allowed to deal with. Yes, yes, 272 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: there absolutely have been suicide audition calls on the line, 273 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: and our volunteers do go through a four day training 274 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: and there are things that are inside the scope of 275 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: what we do and there are things that are outside 276 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: of the scope. It's so interesting that you picked up 277 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: on that. There's this sort of two b sides of 278 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: what we're saying in our communication to the world, which 279 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: is we're here promotional support, we're here for you, We're 280 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: glad you're here, and then there's the got to cover 281 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: your ass. These are the hard lines. The other founder 282 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: is background is a lawyer. So interesting, it's just a 283 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: reality that we face right now. We do have to 284 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: be really cleared up front that we're not medical professionals, 285 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: that we are not emergency support staff, and we have 286 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 1: processes within our protocols to pause calls or stop calls 287 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: and transfer them out if they are moving into space 288 00:16:56,880 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: where it feels like the Suicide Prevention hot and for example, 289 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: needs to be referred to or urgency services. And it 290 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 1: has been growing and a challenge because our volunteers are 291 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: very empathetic for the most part and very wanting to help, 292 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 1: and it's not always a hun percent clear is this 293 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: called moving to a space where this is outside of 294 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: the scope. Is this person who's exhibiting suicidal ideation do 295 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 1: they have the means? Are they just saying that they 296 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: feel suicidal? So there's a lot of gray area there, 297 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: and we really are very conservative when it comes to 298 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: that because we want people to have the care that 299 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,679 Speaker 1: they need by professionals or by people who can support them. 300 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: And so we have had to transfer calls outside of 301 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: the scope of our line, and we're thankful the National 302 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: Suits of Prevention Hotline. We're thankful for the crisis text line, 303 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: and that we have the means to also within the 304 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: technology do live transfers to emergency services as well. Now 305 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 1: tell me that we're the volunteers, some of them are 306 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: going through the very conversations. What is happening in terms 307 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: of they're processing it themselves. Are there periodic kind of 308 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: group conversations among the volunteers to process some of the 309 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: conversations they've had, are their therapists who have volunteered to 310 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,719 Speaker 1: assist the volunteers and processing what they had to deal with? 311 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: Or what's the cumultive learning experience for the volunteers once 312 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: you've done this ten times to what extent is there's 313 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 1: some collaborative process and therapeutic process having among and for 314 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,159 Speaker 1: the volunteers. That's awesome. Question is so interesting. As the 315 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 1: line launched in April, we went from a very low 316 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 1: call volume and now we're you know, each week you're 317 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,440 Speaker 1: getting more and more calls, more texts coming through, and 318 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: different types of calls and starting to notice patterns and 319 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: repeat callers and things like this. So we're really learning 320 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: a lot as we go. Without our volunteers the support 321 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: learn when existence so thankful for them and there's a 322 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: lot of support during the shift. So volunteer comes in 323 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: when they log in there at home or in a quiet, 324 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: safe place, they log into the system and then there 325 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,679 Speaker 1: with a team during their shifts. So there's two to 326 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 1: three other volunteers with them, and then there's a supervisor 327 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,479 Speaker 1: and so the supervisors there to support the volunteers, and 328 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: so there are updates that the supervisor gives folks, but 329 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 1: they're also like listening to two calls if the volunteer 330 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:24,640 Speaker 1: needs kind of support, they're giving feedback about their approach 331 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 1: and also debriefing with either the individual volunteer or with 332 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: the whole squad. So if there was a challenging call 333 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 1: and the volunteer needs sort of one on one support, 334 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: the supervisor that's on duty does that, and then if 335 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 1: it makes sense it feels right, the whole team during 336 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: that time will debrief what was going on. And we've 337 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: had community meetings where we bring and invite the entire 338 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: community of volunteers together to share how things are going 339 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: on the line, to share new protocols, just be witnessed 340 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: as they share in process what some of the experiences 341 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: have been like for them on the line. We are 342 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: moving in the space where We've actually just brought on 343 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 1: a clinical consultant who's going to be available for individuals 344 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: but also to support us building and fortifying our protocols 345 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: as well. And there are spaces where we offer ongoing training. 346 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: We offer looks like a once a month ongoing training. 347 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 1: It's different things, and sometimes it's some of our volunteers 348 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,360 Speaker 1: offering their expertise and they're really building the communities. One 349 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: of our volunteers offers yoga sessions, there's a meditation session 350 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: you can drop into, and so as we grow, we're 351 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 1: going to be really building that tool kit of support 352 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: for our volunteers. Before I turned to asking you about 353 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,719 Speaker 1: the Zendel Project, which is the second carm aduction project 354 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: at Burning Man, the last question I wanted to hit 355 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 1: you with was when you think about the experiences you've 356 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:51,239 Speaker 1: had as a volunteer taking calls, are there one or 357 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 1: two that really stand out that you keep coming to 358 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 1: mind in terms of being particularly intense or profound, or 359 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: would you feel you made an unusual difference or were 360 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: transformed by being in an experience with somebody going from 361 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: love this question, there are two calls that kind of 362 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: stick out for me. One is one of the first 363 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 1: calls that actually came into the line. So on our 364 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 1: opening day April fourteen one, the first session, it was 365 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: all three of the founders. We were on shift together 366 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: that day, and the first call that I got it 367 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: was just amazing. So the line opened at like three 368 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: o'clock that day and maybe up three fifteen or so, 369 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: a call came in and it was my first call, 370 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: and there was something just like really euphoric about like, 371 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: my goodness, one minute ago, like this didn't exist and 372 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,640 Speaker 1: now people know about it and our calling in for support. 373 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: And I talked to this young man who's out in 374 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: Seattle and he was processing of heroes dose on psilocybin 375 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: that he had experienced two nights before. And it was 376 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: really powerful to remember my training, to be in that 377 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,120 Speaker 1: reflective space and to be with this person as they 378 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: were just remembering and walking through and trying to understand. 379 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: And what was powerful about it was one just being 380 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: so proud of like, wow, we created this thing and 381 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: people are calling, but also the power of listening without 382 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: interjecting my opinions or thoughts or how powerful that was 383 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: for him. And after about twenty minutes, I really just listened. 384 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: I asked maybe one or two questions, and at the 385 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: end of the call, of which he sort of motivated, 386 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: he was like, this has been great and I feel 387 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: so much better and thank you so much. I feel 388 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,200 Speaker 1: like it's very powerful for him to know that I'm 389 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: not being judged and I'm not crazy. And I can't 390 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: tell you when I'm reading the call logs, because our 391 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: voluntaries fill out callogs after each call summarizing what they 392 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: did and what was going on. How many people sort 393 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: of say this, and we get testimonials right back, people 394 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 1: saying I felt hurt and seen, and I didn't feel 395 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: judge and I didn't feel like a bad person. So 396 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: it just felt really amazing to do that. And the 397 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: other call was maybe a couple of months ago. I 398 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: took a call from a young woman who was in 399 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: Texas and she was a facilitator and so she worked 400 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 1: at a facility doing retreat work and she was a spaceholder, 401 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 1: and she had a heck of a weekend. There was 402 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: a runner, there was drama going on with staff, and 403 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: she just was like, I need to talk to somebody. 404 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 1: And so it was amazing that she found out about us, 405 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: since she knew we were here and that I could 406 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: sit and provide support and offer my insights to a spaceholder, 407 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: someone who's other holding space for other people, and that 408 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,399 Speaker 1: felt really remarkable and special to me. Thanks for sharing 409 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: those stories. I saw it that you and the others 410 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 1: have arranged for Fireside project to be evaluated by a 411 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: team at University of California, San Francisco, and so I 412 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,720 Speaker 1: wonder are there any preliminary results is yet from that 413 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: evaluation and when will a more complete suation be forthcoming? Yes, 414 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: so we're so blessed to be able to work with 415 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: UCSF and Dr Joseph's A Mario who is on our board, 416 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:13,600 Speaker 1: and also having the support of Dr Rachel Yehuda. I 417 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: think that there are definitely poliminary numbers coming out of 418 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: that study. So we have, like we said, after each call, 419 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:22,880 Speaker 1: we do send out a post call survey, and that's 420 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: what the study is based on. We have about two 421 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: and thirty or so responses, and from that we know 422 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: that of folks who call in or text in feel 423 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: supported and seen. We know that we are impacting folks 424 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 1: calling the e er or if it wasn't for Fireside, 425 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: I'm about thirty of those folks said they would have 426 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 1: gone to the r called. And what's interesting about that 427 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 1: is that when we're on the call with folks, we 428 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: don't necessarily know how intense things are for folks, you know, 429 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 1: they're not sharing that with us. So they get those 430 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: numbers back is pretty powerful, and then we know the 431 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: rough amount of who's calling in, who's actively tripping, and 432 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: then what substances or psychedelics folks are using. For the 433 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: most part, more than seventy of folks who are calling 434 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: or six are folks who are working with psilocybin. And 435 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: then it goes like psilocybin lsd m DM iwaska and 436 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: then the others, And there's hope. I think that the 437 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 1: results of the study will be coming out, I think 438 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 1: before the summer. How about d m T. I'm curious. 439 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: You read about people to take this fifteen minute blast 440 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: to the universe and feel like lifetimes and they come 441 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: back and some don't feel like they're getting back to 442 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,679 Speaker 1: baseline or anything approaching it for quite a while. Have 443 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 1: you handled any calls like that or do you know 444 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: of other volunteers who have. We have definitely taken some 445 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: calls for people who have ingested d m T in 446 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 1: various ways and there are a lot of people who 447 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 1: asked this question a lot will I ever be normal again? 448 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 1: Or will I come back? It's been two weeks or 449 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 1: it's been a couple of days, and I just don't 450 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 1: feel like I did before. And so we're not gonna 451 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: lie to people and say, yes, you're fine, everything's okay, 452 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: and you are going to return back to normal exactly 453 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: the way you were before. We really try to ask 454 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: questions about how do you want to feel, and let's 455 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: talk about what was the experience like and what are 456 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: you noticing? And I think that there are a lot 457 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: of people also doing these things alone by themselves and 458 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 1: not with a sitter or with a group. And again, 459 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: it feels super important for the support line to be 460 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: there to help people at least sit and reflect. And honestly, 461 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: that's in my opinion, having that time to sit and 462 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: reflect and to be in a place of questioning and 463 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: exploring is where the growth happens, and it also releases 464 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: people from the worry. When I met you a few 465 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: months ago, it's at Miami Wonderland Psychelis conference, around the 466 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: same time I met your co founder White, the lawyer 467 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: turned the Psychedelic Peers support founder. So tell me about 468 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,959 Speaker 1: the origins of that relationship and how this project came 469 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 1: about in the first place. So Josh and I met 470 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: in out at a place called black Rock City, Burning 471 00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:21,480 Speaker 1: Men in and just a funny, strange story of how 472 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: the desert brings people together. But one of my very 473 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: good friends, her sister, is friends with Josh, and so 474 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 1: my friend and I went to go visit her sister's 475 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: camp and there was like a small gathering and in 476 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: that gathering, Josh was there and that's where we met. 477 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: And we were with a group of about I don't 478 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: know it twelve or fifteen people, and we all decided 479 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: that we were going to ride our bikes out to 480 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: the playa. And it was at night and folks are 481 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: delighting in various things, and we are on our bikes 482 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: were riding out to the playa, and it became very 483 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: very intense for a bunch of folks, including myself, And 484 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: so there was a fraction of us who decided we 485 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 1: were to go back to camp because we just couldn't 486 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 1: be out there. It's just people are just like whizzing 487 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,399 Speaker 1: by on bikes and everything's glowing. And this is my 488 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: first time to Burning Man by the way, six of us, 489 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: we ride our bikes back to camp and just you know, 490 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: are grounding, getting in tune with our set and setting, 491 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: making sure we felt safe and grounded. And can I 492 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: assume you were under the influence of psychelics during this 493 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: bike right at night? You can assume yes, okay? And 494 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: so we come back to camp, and so I was 495 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,479 Speaker 1: there with Josh and we were just just connecting and 496 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: holding space for each other as we explored consciousness and whatnot. 497 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: And that was our kind of first real connection. And 498 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,239 Speaker 1: then we saw each other a few times over the 499 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: course of the week a burning man exchanged information and 500 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: then played a like wicked game phone tag. For about 501 00:28:55,680 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: a year and last summer we reconnected around the concept 502 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: of what became Fireside Project. Josh is a lawyer and 503 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: also worked many years on a support line or a 504 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: crisis line in San Francisco and thing it's called the 505 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: talk line where I want to say, six or seven 506 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: years a long time, and he really had the idea 507 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 1: of if there was a support line for psychedelics, and 508 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: what would it also mean to ensure that this type 509 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: of service is available for all people and helped too 510 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: broad in the psychedelic community, and we had all types 511 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: of conversations for several months. First we were meaning like 512 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: every two weeks, and it was like once a week, 513 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: and then it was like we were talking every day 514 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 1: and just really moving this idea forward and officially joined 515 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: forces as co founders. I want to say, it was 516 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: like August or September something of toy. So what was 517 00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: it about your background that brought you to this and 518 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: to this connection with Josh. Was it about a deep 519 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: background in psychedelics or in helping to heal people or 520 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,240 Speaker 1: where were you coming from on this? My interest in 521 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: this was I saw the need for something like this, 522 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: and also a deep part of who I am is 523 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 1: helping to create healing spaces, so helping to create spaces 524 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: of healing and wellness. In twenty nineteen, I found out 525 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: a project called One Village Healing, which is a bypox 526 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: centered wellness platform, And so we're doing reiky, we're doing meditation, 527 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: we're doing talk groups, we're doing art therapy, and now 528 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 1: moving towards teaching and educating on psychedelic wellness. And I've 529 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 1: always had a mind and a heart for what I 530 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 1: would call sacred activism, and so really helping to support 531 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: creating spaces, creating the means and the infrastructure for folks 532 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: to have access to what brings them alive, and to 533 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: also name and call out the systems and obstructions that 534 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 1: deter or get in the way of people being most alive. So, 535 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,959 Speaker 1: at my heart of hearts, I am what I always say, 536 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: a sacred activists. How would you define sacred activism? To me, 537 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: sacred activism is using and utilizing the gifts, the innate gifts, 538 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: the tools that one has two support deliberation and healing 539 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: for all and doing that without wanting to seek gain 540 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: or accolades or awards, but because it's the right thing 541 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: to do with your life force. And so for me, 542 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: that includes organizing, it also includes design elements. I'm a 543 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: Rickey Master practitioners also supporting active as well as facilitating, 544 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: so I facilitate on all types of different levels, but 545 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: really bringing groups together and ensuring that people feel hurt 546 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: and seeing that there's a way for ideas also to 547 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: be ideated and then moved into action. You've talked about 548 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: sacred activism, but in terms of what you think about 549 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: sacred activism, what's the role of the psychaelics to me, 550 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: sacred activism is not something that I like made up. 551 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: It's a term that's been used. And when we talk 552 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: about the sacred, we're talking about like spirit, and we're 553 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 1: talking about interconnectedness, and I'm talking about seeing beyond my 554 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: lifetime and understanding that there's impact on an energetic level 555 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: of what a legacy and like what we do and 556 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: how that might show up years and generations from now. 557 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: And in my experience within the psychedelic space, it is 558 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: for me been psychedelics that have opened my eyes and 559 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: heart two that type of reality and work, and that 560 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: have helped me see and feel that I have bigger 561 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: work to do that's not just for me, and that's 562 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: not about building a career, but it's about helping to 563 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: support the world and the planet and the humanity generations on. 564 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: I read in looking at your background that you spent 565 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: quite a number of years some years ago working at 566 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: and ultimately directing a project called Amistad America. And Amistad 567 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: was the famous the slave ship back in the eighteen 568 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,040 Speaker 1: thirties or forties where the Africans who have been slaved 569 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: overthrew the captain and the sailors and landed up sailing 570 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: into the US and being captured, and somehow the Amistade 571 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: showed up in my early years as an academic writing 572 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: about the internationalization from the law enforcement, and it was 573 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: a remarkable moment when other governments were trying to extradite 574 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 1: the Africans who had revolted, and this thing went to 575 00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: the U. S. Supreme Court, and it was one of 576 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: the I think more elevated moments in the history of 577 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: the abolition movement, with the Supreme Court actually ruled in 578 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 1: favor of the Africans who had been enslaved. But I 579 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,359 Speaker 1: wonder what was that Amistad American project and what was 580 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: the connection, if you can think about this, between your 581 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: work on that and the work that you're doing now. Yes, 582 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: thank you for going there and bringing that forward. I 583 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,839 Speaker 1: love history and I love the process of remembering that 584 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: we are all here, that we're all equal, and that 585 00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: we're here to live our fullest lives. And my time 586 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 1: with Amiston was remarkable and intense, to say the least. 587 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: And I was a part of the crew for many years. 588 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: So I was a cook and one of the head 589 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: educators and became the director of education and then the 590 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: enterim executive director towards the end, and I really believed 591 00:34:55,040 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: in the mission of Amiston America, which was about utilizing 592 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 1: the ship. So it was a replica of Amistad Lamistad, 593 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,879 Speaker 1: and the ship was the US Coasts certified, had all 594 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: the modern day things, a crew of fifteen and literally 595 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 1: its goal was to transverse the triangle of trade in 596 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 1: real time and along the way to teach about the 597 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: history of Alamistad and also to talk about how racism 598 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,240 Speaker 1: and white supremacy exists still today and help people remember 599 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,200 Speaker 1: their role in combating and fighting that. And so we 600 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: selled all over The ship sells to England, it's selled 601 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 1: to Serra Leone, It's selled throughout the Caribbean, to South Carolina, 602 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: all the way up and down the Eastern seaboard up 603 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: to Nova Scotia. At really teaching this history thousands of 604 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 1: people every year. And I do see my life when 605 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:54,840 Speaker 1: I look back at my life and the experiences that 606 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,360 Speaker 1: I've had, that it is moving in a direction towards 607 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,240 Speaker 1: in my own personal life, be the more free, having 608 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: more liberation, helping people to have that, and not forgetting 609 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: that there are disparities, not forgetting for whatever privileges one 610 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: might have that there is bigger work to do and 611 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: that it's all of our responsibility to move that forward, 612 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: and that for me it is like what we should 613 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: be up to. And so I carry the work of 614 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: liberation from my work with Amastad. For sure, it have 615 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 1: carried that into my own personal work and into the 616 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: work that I've done for about seven or ten years 617 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: now around working with nonprofits and community serving organizations to 618 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: support those organizations to be better, to help people understand 619 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 1: what power disparities are happening within their organization and how 620 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:54,399 Speaker 1: to reimagine and reconstruct the those systems. So I've done 621 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: a lot of work around diversity, equity and systems change work, 622 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: and I feel I get to bring my Ricky mastership, 623 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,640 Speaker 1: I get to bring my facilitation, I get to bring 624 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: my liberation work. I get to bring my art and 625 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: design work into this psychedelic arena. Something that I kept 626 00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: hidden for a long time from my loved ones and 627 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: my community members. I didn't share that I have had 628 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: psychedelic experiences that I sit in ceremony that it's a 629 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,439 Speaker 1: part of my healing and I'm wanting to as part 630 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 1: of my work with Fireside Project, help people understand, particularly 631 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: brown and black folks and those who have been traditionally 632 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 1: marginalized in this country, that there is possibility and for 633 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: deep healing with psychedelics, and that it is available, that 634 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: it is possible, and that it is our history right 635 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: and it is our our birthright to it. So we're 636 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: really helping or have a vision to help broaden the 637 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: arena or broaden who is in the psychedelic space. So 638 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,399 Speaker 1: we have plans for launching an equity plan this year, 639 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: just very citing, so are volunteers who are coming from 640 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 1: under resource communities or traditionally marginalized communities will have access 641 00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: to an equity fund to continue to further their education 642 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:18,320 Speaker 1: and training within the psychedelic space. We are also launching 643 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 1: an Affinity Cohort program which will be volunteers who come 644 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 1: from the bipop communities as well as the veterans, military 645 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: veterans and trance communities to be on call for integration 646 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:37,239 Speaker 1: calls for people who come from those identities. We know 647 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: people aren't a monolith identity, but it's our step forward 648 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,280 Speaker 1: and offering choice and power sharing and so those folks 649 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: will support people who share those identities. So, say you've 650 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: had a psychedelic experience, and you really want to integrate, 651 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 1: and you really want to talk to somebody who shares 652 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: with that identity. So as a black woman, I want 653 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: to talk to somebody who's black. I now, you know 654 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 1: that we're going to be launching this in June, can 655 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: call or text and say, hey, I would like to 656 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,279 Speaker 1: speak with someone from this identity to do an integration call. 657 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 1: That's going to be available, and that's just the beginning. 658 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: We also want to again resource those volunteers to have 659 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,560 Speaker 1: access to the Equity Fund so that if they want, 660 00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: they can continue their training and education within the psychedelic space, 661 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 1: so they can be leading research, so they can be 662 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 1: become facilitators, so they can be writing the books, so 663 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 1: they can be writing the articles, and really expanding who 664 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,319 Speaker 1: is in the psychedelic space, because right now it is 665 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,319 Speaker 1: predominantly why predominantly male lead. And I know in my 666 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: heart that the people who have suffered a lot, and 667 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: maybe the most in this country are those who are 668 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: coming from communities that are enslaved, communities that were persecuted, 669 00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 1: communities that don't have wealth. And it is a deep 670 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 1: desire to ensure that their pathways for as many of 671 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 1: those people to have access us too, psychedelics and the 672 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:07,600 Speaker 1: healing that egg can offer. Let's take a break here 673 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 1: and go to an agg If you look at the 674 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:26,360 Speaker 1: latest local ballot initiatives to decriminalize psychedelics. Two of the 675 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,760 Speaker 1: places that happened, we're in d C, which is half black, 676 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: and Detroit, which I guess is where you're from, which 677 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 1: is three quarters black. So you know, you put these 678 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:39,319 Speaker 1: popular initiatives and people are voting for them, and you're 679 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: beginning to see some famous black people more like in sports, 680 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: I mean Mike Tyson with his Toad medicine experience, the 681 00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,800 Speaker 1: or the NBA star lamar Ow talking about his experience 682 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:50,800 Speaker 1: with some of this sort of stuff. So we're beginning 683 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: to see it. Why has there been this kind of 684 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: psychedelics renaissance emerging? And I oftentimes credit Rick Doblin and 685 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: Maps and all their work, and I credit that their 686 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: network of researchers who are doing this sort of stuff. 687 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: And then I credit also, I think Michael Pollen with 688 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 1: this kind of breakthrough crossover book that many people have 689 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: never done psycholics are reading. But I've been thinking about it. 690 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: The other key thing is when you have guys like 691 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 1: podcast hosts like Joe Rogan or Tim Ferris or Sam Harris, 692 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 1: who have huge reach, each reaching different communities, but millions 693 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 1: tensibly as the people, and people are just tuning into 694 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,720 Speaker 1: them because they like listening to these guys in their guests. 695 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,800 Speaker 1: Is there anybody out there in a prominent way among 696 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 1: black media folk who are doing what's ay Rogan or 697 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: Harris or Ferris are doing or anything resembling that as yet, 698 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 1: because it seems that might make a significant difference, I 699 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 1: would have to say no, not yet. Anyway, there's a 700 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,560 Speaker 1: carefulness that I believe that black folks have to have 701 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: when transversing things that are illegal. So there's a privilege 702 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,759 Speaker 1: right that we don't have or don't act upon when 703 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: it comes to openly talking about the use and using 704 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 1: psychedelics because of their legal status. And so I know 705 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 1: that there's also a very healthy underground that, in my 706 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: experience is full of brown and black folks who have 707 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:18,800 Speaker 1: whole systems and networks and are providing support, are growing, 708 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 1: are distributing, are sitting in ceremony. So there's a I think, 709 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 1: a desire to see more people above ground who aren't 710 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,319 Speaker 1: sort of holding the banner. And I think that there 711 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:36,399 Speaker 1: are and has been historically people of color utilizing psychedelics 712 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,759 Speaker 1: for a long time, but people aren't just out about it. 713 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,839 Speaker 1: They're not on the radio or writing articles are being 714 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,120 Speaker 1: public because of the legalities. The work that you're doing 715 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 1: and a few others are doing is very important. And 716 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,919 Speaker 1: I see some of the folks who black people who 717 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 1: go to Burning Man are talking out a bit. And 718 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,920 Speaker 1: I saw Jada Pinkett Smith doing an interview right about 719 00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: her psycholics use, so the words getting out and I 720 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:02,960 Speaker 1: understand what you're saying about the reservations, right. The fact 721 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: that blacks have been dispersonally targeted by the drug war 722 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 1: and more vulnerable all makes sense. But nonetheless, I think 723 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,960 Speaker 1: sometimes in the way that Michael Pollen played a key role, 724 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,920 Speaker 1: or you think about the role that Michelle Alexander when 725 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,360 Speaker 1: she wrote her book The New Gym Crow. It was 726 00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,720 Speaker 1: other people who been making similar arguments, but Michelle stood 727 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,280 Speaker 1: out with a book the right time, the right place, 728 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:26,360 Speaker 1: the right person, framing the argument in a way that 729 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 1: put it together that really is catapulted things forward. I 730 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,839 Speaker 1: remember when Black Lives Matter emerged a number of years ago. 731 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:34,839 Speaker 1: One of the things that was so inspiring for me 732 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 1: is that I saw it from where I was sitting 733 00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 1: as almost one of the first sort of black civil 734 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 1: rights manifestations that was fully embracing more or less the 735 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,800 Speaker 1: totality of drug policy reform and becoming our uninhibited allies 736 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 1: on drug policy reform. Now, the psychelic piece wasn't really 737 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,360 Speaker 1: part of that discussion, but I think we need that 738 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,160 Speaker 1: sort of weaving together of different strands of drug policy reform, 739 00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,839 Speaker 1: social justice, criminal justice with the psychedelics area. Yes, when 740 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,560 Speaker 1: I was first coming into a butt like into this 741 00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,080 Speaker 1: space or people wanting me to speak and whatever, and 742 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:09,279 Speaker 1: I would get these questions about what do we need 743 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 1: to do to have more brown and like people in 744 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,840 Speaker 1: the psychedelic movement and how's the movement? And I was like, 745 00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: what movement? There's a psychedelic movement. It was very curious 746 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 1: language to me, because when I think about movement work, 747 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 1: I was like, has this movement been going on since 748 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,319 Speaker 1: the sixties? Like when't this movement start? And who's leading in? 749 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,000 Speaker 1: What are the objectives and what are we asking for. 750 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:34,320 Speaker 1: I think that there's a lot of different lenses and 751 00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:39,080 Speaker 1: a lot of different opinions about what the psychedelic spaces 752 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:41,680 Speaker 1: or movement or indra street people are putting it in 753 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 1: all these different buckets, and so I think that there's 754 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 1: a lot to be said around how do we really 755 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 1: move things forward in an active way and help to 756 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:55,280 Speaker 1: amplify the objectives of all the goals of these different pieces. 757 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 1: To me, ultimately, all movements are one movement. It's about liberation. 758 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,400 Speaker 1: Everything is moving people toward greater liberation, greater freedom, greater 759 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:07,320 Speaker 1: access to be resourced to be healthy, whole and happy. 760 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 1: And yes, I'm all about how do we pull in 761 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,720 Speaker 1: psychedelics into the conversation when we're talking about social justice 762 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 1: so that it's not taboo or dangerous, but actually as 763 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,120 Speaker 1: a tool for our well being as round and black 764 00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,040 Speaker 1: folks in this country. I mean, I tell you when 765 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,840 Speaker 1: people would ask me who is the drug policy reform movement, 766 00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,319 Speaker 1: and one of my answers to that would be, it's 767 00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,120 Speaker 1: the people who are there, and it's your showing up 768 00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,200 Speaker 1: in this space in the last year or two is 769 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,239 Speaker 1: making a difference and other people beginning to show up. 770 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:40,799 Speaker 1: And I think we think about indigenous folks, we think 771 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,960 Speaker 1: about Native Americans in Peyote, we think about ayahuasca and 772 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,880 Speaker 1: Latin American all of this. There's also with Eboga and 773 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,879 Speaker 1: the weety tradition in West Africa. So it's not as 774 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,719 Speaker 1: if this is entirely alien. In fact, some of this 775 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:55,560 Speaker 1: tradition comes from the same part of the world where 776 00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 1: many African Americans who came here in shackles originally came from. 777 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:04,520 Speaker 1: All of our people come from land folks. We all 778 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:08,200 Speaker 1: come from folks who had tribes. We all come from people. Literally, 779 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,239 Speaker 1: Like why we created Fireside project of the name is 780 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 1: that for millennia people have been gathering around the fireside 781 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:18,479 Speaker 1: in ceremony and healing in community. We all come from 782 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:24,000 Speaker 1: people who utilized medicine, plant medicines, whether they be psychedelic 783 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,439 Speaker 1: or not, for our healing and our advancement. And so 784 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,399 Speaker 1: it's a reclamation. And we live in a global society now, 785 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 1: so we don't have to just be like, Okay, you 786 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,520 Speaker 1: came from this country or these regions and so you 787 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:36,160 Speaker 1: can only use this. But it's like, how do we 788 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,799 Speaker 1: have reciprocity, like you're lifting, how do we acknowledge our 789 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,680 Speaker 1: roots and understand that like this isn't foreign or alien 790 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,600 Speaker 1: to us. And there's so much around education that needs 791 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,080 Speaker 1: to be done in a deep and powerful way about 792 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: undoing from the war on drugs and not just facts 793 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,240 Speaker 1: and figures, but like and as somatic and in our body. 794 00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:58,480 Speaker 1: And then how do we build true relationship again with 795 00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,960 Speaker 1: psychedelics in a way that is helpful to us and 796 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:07,200 Speaker 1: for generations to come. Yeah. Yeah, I feel optimistic about 797 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,840 Speaker 1: where this is headed. And I just thinking especially on 798 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,719 Speaker 1: the issue of more black people showing up and being 799 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:14,719 Speaker 1: part of this in the way that you have, and 800 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,280 Speaker 1: then some of the major figures in sports and entertainment 801 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:19,759 Speaker 1: making a difference. I do hope a book is going 802 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,760 Speaker 1: to be forthcoming one of these years about Black people 803 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,040 Speaker 1: in psychedelics that be early begins to tie it all 804 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,719 Speaker 1: together in terms of the ways that you've been doing. 805 00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:31,359 Speaker 1: In our conversation when you were speaking, the person who 806 00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,759 Speaker 1: came to my mind immediately. I saw her speak a 807 00:47:34,760 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 1: couple of times, and I'm so grateful in my life 808 00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:41,240 Speaker 1: is Dr Droid de Grew. Her work has been really 809 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:46,080 Speaker 1: foundational to how I view and think about systems and 810 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: how they can change. And I remember her talking and 811 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:52,080 Speaker 1: she was sharing a story, and one of the things 812 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,120 Speaker 1: that she shared was like, you gotta find your lane 813 00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,800 Speaker 1: doing movement work and system stage work, Find your lane 814 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:03,759 Speaker 1: and stay there, any lane, and stay in it, and 815 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,880 Speaker 1: then just go. And I think about that often. I 816 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:13,520 Speaker 1: think about that often as a resentering, as fuel um 817 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 1: to continue my sacred activism. And I think about, Okay, now, 818 00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: what if I don't stay in my lane? What if 819 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,480 Speaker 1: I want to go in this lane over here? I 820 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,400 Speaker 1: want to be in this lane over So see if 821 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:28,200 Speaker 1: I'm swerving and switching lanes every five minutes or whatever? 822 00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:32,560 Speaker 1: Am I also been laboring someone else? Am I slowing 823 00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:36,440 Speaker 1: down the movement because I can't decide what lane I 824 00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:38,719 Speaker 1: want to be in and how I want to contribute? 825 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:44,640 Speaker 1: And so for me, I think about, there has been 826 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:50,680 Speaker 1: war and turmoil for humanity from the beginning, however far 827 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,960 Speaker 1: you want to go back, And I think where we 828 00:48:54,080 --> 00:49:00,959 Speaker 1: are now, I truly believe that we need constant resiliency work, 829 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:06,440 Speaker 1: physical resilience, spiritual resilience to stay. If you're showing up 830 00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:10,279 Speaker 1: to change, if your eyes are open and you can 831 00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,480 Speaker 1: see that these systems are broken, how do we build 832 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,680 Speaker 1: new ones? How do we build access? And so for me, 833 00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,319 Speaker 1: I think those who have decided to be in the 834 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:26,680 Speaker 1: space of a psychedelic healing and psychedelic wellness. No, it's 835 00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:30,920 Speaker 1: not a luxury to me. It is about creating awareness 836 00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:37,799 Speaker 1: and pathways in access and educating people about not only 837 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,879 Speaker 1: the science of psychedelics but also about how they can 838 00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:45,960 Speaker 1: help and support in the long term ones spiritual and 839 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,799 Speaker 1: physical resilience. And it's also about this idea of coalition 840 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:54,640 Speaker 1: building and no, that psychedelics aren't a monolith, that they 841 00:49:54,719 --> 00:49:58,280 Speaker 1: must work in tandem with other tools and with other movements. 842 00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,080 Speaker 1: And I'm someone who can do many things well and 843 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,040 Speaker 1: have struggled, and I've been that person swerving on the 844 00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,799 Speaker 1: highway between lanes, the highway of life. I want to 845 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,120 Speaker 1: do this, I want to do this, do this, And 846 00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:12,960 Speaker 1: so I feel like I have arrived in a very 847 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:19,160 Speaker 1: outweigh about being an advocate and an activist for access 848 00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:23,480 Speaker 1: to healing spaces, including psychedelics or use of psychedelics. And 849 00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:25,799 Speaker 1: I think if I had advice for other people who 850 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,360 Speaker 1: are listening, it's be aware that systems are broken and 851 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,760 Speaker 1: ship's fucked up, and that there's work to do. Choose 852 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,240 Speaker 1: what work you want to do and do it well 853 00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:38,360 Speaker 1: and keep yourself fortified and healthy. Good parting words ANIFA 854 00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,000 Speaker 1: to listen. Thanks so much, I'm going to send in 855 00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,480 Speaker 1: my contribution to Fireside Project now that you've been on here, 856 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:46,840 Speaker 1: and I just want to wish you and your co 857 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,840 Speaker 1: founder Josh White, and all the volunteers and others involved 858 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,120 Speaker 1: with this project more power to you. I hope it 859 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,600 Speaker 1: grows and grows beautifully. I hope the evaluations come back 860 00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:57,960 Speaker 1: powerfully and the word gets out, and I hope you 861 00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:03,400 Speaker 1: find yourself leading and helping people enter this space who 862 00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:05,680 Speaker 1: just a year or two ago would not have imagined 863 00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:08,480 Speaker 1: entering it, but really need to be, and that good 864 00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:14,960 Speaker 1: things will happen there. So thank you, thank you. If 865 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,960 Speaker 1: you're enjoying Psychoactive, please tell your friends about it, or 866 00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,279 Speaker 1: you can write us a review at Apple Podcasts or 867 00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,160 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. We love to hear from 868 00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,040 Speaker 1: our listeners. If you'd like to share your own stories, 869 00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,200 Speaker 1: comments and ideas, then leave us a message at one 870 00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:35,960 Speaker 1: eight three three seven seven nine sixty that's eight three 871 00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:40,560 Speaker 1: three psycho zero, or you can email us at Psychoactive 872 00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,719 Speaker 1: at protozoa dot com, or find me on Twitter at 873 00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:47,399 Speaker 1: Ethan Natalman. You can also find contact information in our 874 00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:51,160 Speaker 1: show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart Radio 875 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,600 Speaker 1: and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman. It's 876 00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,920 Speaker 1: produced by no h'm osband and Josh Stain. The executive 877 00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:03,160 Speaker 1: producers are Hillen Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren 878 00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,920 Speaker 1: Aronotsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick from 879 00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,759 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio and me Ethan Edelman. Our music is 880 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:14,640 Speaker 1: by Ari Blucien and Especial thanks to a Brio, s 881 00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:29,759 Speaker 1: F Bianca Grimshaw and Robert BP. Next week, join me 882 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,920 Speaker 1: for my conversation with Professor Philippe Bouguas, the brilliant and 883 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:38,040 Speaker 1: courageous ethnographer who studied drug users and drug dealers for 884 00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:41,799 Speaker 1: almost forty years, including almost twenty hanging out with crack 885 00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:46,839 Speaker 1: dealers in East Haarlem in Philadelphia. Every single large and 886 00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:52,640 Speaker 1: even small American city has a phenomenon of a of 887 00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:57,719 Speaker 1: a racially and class divided set of segregated poverty, and 888 00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,640 Speaker 1: that is not normal. I wanted to show what its 889 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:05,520 Speaker 1: effect is on the people scrambling to survive. Subscribe to 890 00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:07,279 Speaker 1: Cycleactive now see it, don't miss it.