WEBVTT - Ep39 rebroadcast "What is the future of AI relationships?" 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.160 Hi, this is David Eagleman. I want to wish you 0:00:02.200 --> 0:00:05.000 a very happy holidays. We're going to take a break 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:06.520 for a couple of weeks, and then we're back in 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:12.760 January with new episodes on emotion, intelligence, time perception, smell 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:16.639 and taste, brain, computer interfaces, and much more. In the meantime, 0:00:16.680 --> 0:00:19.080 we're going to replay one of our favorite episodes from 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:21.520 the past year, and I'll look forward to seeing you 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:32.480 in January. What is the future of AI relationships? Could 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:35.800 it be the case that your relationship partner would be 0:00:35.960 --> 0:00:40.800 more satisfied with a virtual version of you that behaves 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:45.120 five percent better than you do? Could you fall in 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:48.839 love with a bot? How does an AI bot plug 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:52.800 right into you our deep neural circuitry and what are 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:55.440 the pros and the cons of that? And what will 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:58.400 it mean when humans you love don't have to die 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:06.240 but can live on in your phone forever. Welcome to 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:10.160 Inner Cosmos with me David Eagleman. I'm a neuroscientist and 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:13.640 an author at Stanford and in these episodes I examined 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:29.840 the intersection of our brains and our lives. Today's episode 0:01:29.880 --> 0:01:35.959 is about relationships. Why are our brains so wired for relationships. 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:39.759 Why do we want love so much? And will AI 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:43.640 be able to serve as a key to that lock, 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:47.200 and what does that mean for us as humans. So 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:50.720 one of the things that's becoming increasingly popular among young 0:01:50.760 --> 0:01:55.000 men is having an AI girlfriend. You get to choose 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:57.880 or set up a beautiful avatar. 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:00.720 And what do I mean by beautiful. That's up to you. 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:01.920 You can choose. 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.760 Any model that you want, with any sort of features 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:08.640 that appeal maximally to you. But that's just what she 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:13.160 looks like. The important part is the conversation. You start 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:16.600 talking with her, and typically this is just text chat, 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:21.000 but the technology is evolving into the upgrade of video chat, 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:23.960 where you see the avatar's mouth moving while she speaks 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:28.240 to you. Now, typically the free or entry price gets 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:32.160 you an avatar friend who lives on your phone and 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:34.240 checks in on you and says nice things to you 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:37.560 and is available anytime that you want to chat. 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:40.000 And for a premium. 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:44.799 Subscription price you can upgrade to a steamier relationship, and 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:49.000 here she'll text suggestive photos and she'll say things that 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:54.520 you might only expect from pillow whispers. So the concern 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:57.320 that people have expressed is whether this is going to 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:01.680 impact the next generation of males. Now, as a side note, 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:04.560 let me say that I suspect this will have whatever 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:07.880 influence it has on both genders, on males and females, 0:03:08.240 --> 0:03:09.560 also straight and gay. 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:11.600 But I do suspect that. 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:16.880 Males will be the majority demographic simply because males tend 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:21.320 to be more visually driven than females. So for the 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.320 conversation here, I'm going to talk about it the way 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:27.840 that it's mostly discussed in the media and in academic circles, 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:31.959 which is straight males getting girlfriends this way. But keep 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:35.560 in mind this is a more generalized issue. Now, the 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:40.360 question is what will this mean for all future generations? 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:44.840 Because within AI relationship, you don't have to go out 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:49.160 and confront all the difficulty of a real flesh and 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:54.840 blood relationship. Real relationships get snippy, people get angry. 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:56.200 In real relationships. 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:59.720 Your partner might develop a crush on someone else in 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.040 leave you or hook up with someone else and you 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:07.080 find out later, Or your partner might develop an illness, 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.080 or she might get a job somewhere else and have 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:13.200 to move and then you're stuck in a lonely long 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:18.320 distance relationship for years or whatever. Relationships are full of challenges, 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:22.120 the majority of which can get circumvented with a nice 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.640 algorithm that is just content to listen to you all 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:29.159 the time and remember everything you say and give you 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:33.919 one hundred percent attention and always be nice. So my 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:36.960 wife sometimes jokes with me about wanting to build the 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:41.680 five percent better David. She has, mostly as a joke, 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:44.960 talked about this issue of what if she could have 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:49.560 an AI avatar of me that is never distracted with work, 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:52.839 or never looks at my cell phone when it things 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:55.719 in the middle of a conversation we're having, or never 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.960 wakes up from a weird dream and has a funny morning, 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:03.919 or never argues over some misunderstanding that's later understood to 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.800 be stupid and meaningless. And she tells me that she 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:11.000 wants five percent better David to always tell her she's right, 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:14.719 even in those rare cases when she's wrong. The key 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:18.120 is that five percent better David never gets busy or 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:23.960 occasionally snarky or forgets some occasion. Instead, he represents all 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.560 the best of me. And I'll just note that it's 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:30.839 very kind of her to label this five percent better David, 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:34.360 because she could say like ninety percent better and she'd 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:35.200 be justified. 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:35.960 Why. 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:40.520 It's because we are all very imperfect in relationships. As 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:44.640 I've talked about on other episodes, we are each living 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:47.920 on our own planet in the sense that we carry 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:52.040 our own internal models of the world, and as much 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.680 as we work to understand one another's viewpoints and motivations 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:57.520 and intentions, we're. 0:05:57.400 --> 0:05:58.480 Not always that good at it. 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:02.280 Because we assume that other people are seeing the world 0:06:02.640 --> 0:06:04.920 in the same way that we do, they have the 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:09.200 same methods for sense making, they gather meaning in the 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:12.080 same way that we do, and we assume they generally 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:16.279 hold or should hold, the same opinions about everything that 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:20.600 we do. And this is because the brain is locked 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:25.520 in silence and darkness and has no meaningful direct access 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:28.320 to the outside world, and so it gathers up all 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:32.440 its information through its narrow windows of the senses, and 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:37.320 it builds its internal model from this very thin trajectory 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:40.279 of space and time that it walks along. And this 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.800 is why everyone is so different on the inside, and 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:50.960 therefore why relationships are always full of misunderstanding and often conflict. 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:56.680 So relationships are inherently tough. And the question is when 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:58.880 would it be a good thing if you could have 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:03.960 an artificial partner who represents all the best of what 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:06.880 a person can be. So a lot of people will 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:09.840 immediately say no to this idea, but it's worth noting 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:13.640 that we're all striving to be the five percent better 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:17.320 versions of ourselves. We don't want to be snarky or 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:20.640 angry or distracted when a loved one is talking to us. 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:22.920 It's not like we get some extra pleasure out of 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:25.960 doing that, and it's not like the relationship gets some 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:31.600 extra boost or closeness from that having happened. So presumably 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:35.560 this is all part of why AI relationships have become 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:38.480 a thing, a possibility. 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:39.320 That we talk about nowadays. 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:44.400 In Japan, many young men apparently already prefer to have 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:50.040 relationships with their digital assistants or avatars or holographic girlfriends 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:55.200 instead of dealing with the complexity of real life relationships, 0:07:55.760 --> 0:08:00.800 and according to research, gen z is more readily redisposed 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:06.320 to seek out relationships with AI generated avatars first because 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:09.560 they're comfortable using the technology in this way compared to 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:15.560 previous generations, and also they're participating less often in traditional 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:20.600 social activities like regular family dinners or attending religious services 0:08:20.720 --> 0:08:26.360 or playing sports and The question is, if AI relationships 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:31.600 were to catch on broadly, what will this mean for society? 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:35.079 Will kids actually stop going on dates because they can 0:08:35.160 --> 0:08:37.880 find better relationships online? 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:41.319 And this is a real question because there. 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:47.840 Are many startups currently blossoming to create chatbot driven connections. 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:49.360 I'll give you one example. 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.880 There's a twenty three year old influencer with almost two 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:56.880 million Snapchat followers. Her name is Karen Marjorie, and earlier 0:08:56.920 --> 0:09:00.920 this year in May, she released Karen Ai, which is 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:05.960 an immersive AI experience featuring videos of Margie that she 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:10.200 says provide a quote virtual girlfriend for those who are 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:12.440 willing to pony up one dollar per minute. 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:12.960 Now. 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:17.160 This is what's known as a companion chatbot, and she 0:09:17.280 --> 0:09:20.720 tweeted that quote karen Ai is the first step in 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:23.360 the right direction to cure loneliness. 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:27.480 He tweet continues. Quote. Men are told to suppress their. 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:30.800 Emotions and not talk about issues they're having. 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:33.800 I vow to fix this with karen Ai. 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:39.359 She says she's worked with leading psychologists to seamlessly include 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:44.480 the right therapies to quote undue trauma, rebuild physical and 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:48.720 emotional confidence, and rebuild what has been taken away by 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.240 the pandemic end quote. And by the way, as a 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.240 side note, I think AI psychologists are going to be 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:58.400 a truly important part of the clinical landscape by next 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:01.240 year because you can have a therapist that you can 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:04.640 talk to twenty four to seven, and the therapist never gets. 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:05.839 Distracted or flustered and. 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:10.200 Only cares about you and has a perfect memory for 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.400 everything you've ever said, which is better than anybody else 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:17.720 in real life. So back to AI girlfriends or boyfriends. 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:21.760 The same idea applies here, which is that they are 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:25.960 completely devoted to you and always in a good mood 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:30.600 and only have you in mind. So what are AI 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:33.440 relationships going to mean? Well, I think this is going 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:38.040 to be a research question that sociologists and psychologists will 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:42.920 study for the coming decades and centuries. The initial studies 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:47.480 are suggesting that people, mostly gen zers, are moving closer 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:53.040 to the technology to avoid the unpleasant realities of human relationships. 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:58.079 All the tough stuff. Is that detrimental? Well it could 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:02.360 be if it makes your human reas relationships harder, because 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:05.320 maybe every time you guys have an argument in real life, 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.280 your partner thinks, well, forget it, I'm bagging this. I'm 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:11.800 going back to my comfort zone. So the concern, as 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:15.120 you can probably guess, is that the rise of AI 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:20.440 driven relationships could exacerbate loneliness because they seem to be 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:23.439 a meal, but they provide no calories. 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:24.880 And I'll come back to that in a moment. 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:30.040 In other words, AI generated avatars could interfere with the 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:35.080 relationships that young people are just learning to foster, because 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:41.400 the AI relationship might breed dissatisfaction with flawed humans. And 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:44.920 this applies not only to lovers, but even to friends. 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:48.360 It might be easier to have AI friends who aren't 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:50.800 busy when you need them and can give you one 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:54.280 hundred percent of their attention whenever you need it. And 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:58.560 let me throw in a different potential problem with AI relationships, 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:01.120 So give me one second to take this tangent here. 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:04.760 I was thinking the other day about the Fermi paradox. 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:06.120 The Fermi paradox is. 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:11.520 Given the size of the observable cosmos, with over one 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:15.120 hundred billion galaxies, and each of them with one hundred 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:18.280 billion stars, and each of those surrounded by some number 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:21.200 of planets, what is the reason that we have not 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:26.400 heard from any other alien species yet? And one of 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:30.200 the proposals that's always been there is that maybe as 0:12:30.440 --> 0:12:36.040 civilizations become more technically advanced, they end up killing themselves, 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:39.839 and this is why we haven't heard from other smart civilizations, 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:40.600 because they. 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:41.800 Are already gone. 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:44.880 And every time I've seen this proposal, it's always in 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:48.520 the form of warfare, things like nuclear bombs. 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:50.840 They end up wiping themselves out. 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:55.000 So civilizations become smart and it's not long before they disappear. 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:59.720 So in thinking about AI relationships, it struck me as 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:04.359 a possibility that if we had really, really great relationships 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:09.040 with avatars, perhaps that would cause the birth rate of 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:12.440 the species to collapse. I don't know if this has 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:15.920 been proposed as a possible answer to the Fermi paradox, 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:20.560 but maybe this should be included, not civilization's disappearing because 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:24.120 of bad things, but instead from having too much of 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:28.400 a good thing, which could fool and eventually overwrite or 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:50.560 mandate for reproduction. Okay, so no one knows what the 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:54.280 long term effects will be of these AI relationships, but 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:58.800 I don't actually think the situation is as dire as 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:01.840 some of these arguments suggest that it is. And I'll 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:05.920 make two arguments to this end. The first revolves around 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:11.160 human touch. We are deeply wired to care about touch. 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:13.120 I'm going to do a whole episode on touch in 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.360 the near future, but the bottom line is that touch 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:19.480 helps us to connect with others, to feel safe and secure, 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:23.520 to regulate our emotions. When you get touched, your brain 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:27.520 releases oxytocin, which is a hormone that has calming effects 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:32.880 and bonding effects, and oxytocin helps to reduce stress and anxiety. 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:36.760 It can even boost your immune system. So we need 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:41.080 touch to feel connected and loved, and a lack of 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:45.720 touch leads to loneliness and depression and anxiety. So we're 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:49.200 deeply programmed for touch and also things like smell, and 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:52.840 so it would presumably be quite lonely if all you 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:57.320 had was the five percent better partner on a screen 0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:01.760 and you're just exchanging text messages or just an avatar 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:03.840 you can look at on your phone, or maybe even 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:06.680 in the near future you'll have a three D avatar 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:09.800 projection in your living room, but you won't have the 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:16.680 hand squeeze and the hug and other forms of physical intimacy. Now, 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:20.600 I assume people are working on AI robots that can 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:24.480 provide touch, even something simple like touching your shoulder or 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.560 laying a hand on your hand, and I can't imagine 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:29.840 that it's going to be too hard to do, and 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.440 it'll probably be not that great at first, but after 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:35.320 a few tech cycles you can imagine it could get 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:39.560 pretty good. But in any case, at the moment, if 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:43.120 you have a girlfriend who just lives in several square 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.000 inches in your phone screen, you're going to be missing 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:51.360 out on this fundamentally needed aspect of human communication that 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:54.960 our brains seek. So the depth to which our brains 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.200 are wired for touch suggests to me that the reach 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:02.480 of AI partners into our lives is going to be limited, because, 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:07.120 at least it's currently devised, their algorithmic reach never actually 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:12.240 contacts our skin, and so that will be continued to 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:13.320 be sought. 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:14.440 Now. 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:18.440 The second point to raise about whether AI partners can 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:21.960 displace real human partners is that there's a sense in 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.960 which fake partners have always been around. Just look at 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:29.200 a book, look at a movie, look at any TV show. 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:34.640 You have beautiful Hollywood actors and actresses, and they have 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:39.600 flawless skin and perfectly quafft hair and no hair where 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.640 they shouldn't, and they have glittering white teeth. They are 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:46.280 the epitome of health, and they always say the right thing, 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:51.360 and you get to be the protagonist and enjoy experiencing 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:55.440 that relationship. You find the partner and lose the partner, 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:57.960 and then an act five you regain the relationship with 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:03.080 an epic kiss. This kind of fake relationship in books 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:06.480 and movies isn't exactly the same as an ai relationship, 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:08.520 but it has some similarities. 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:10.120 They both represent a. 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:16.240 Platonic ideal, a perfect relationship with someone who always says 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:19.439 the right thing. We never see a love interest in 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:23.840 the movie who is distracted or angry, or interested in 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:26.960 someone else, or just really busy with work, too busy 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:30.080 to spend time with you when you need them. You 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:32.919 never see a love interest in the movies who waste 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:35.920 a lot of time taking selfies and trying to build 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:41.359 a meaningless reputation on TikTok. People have no meaningful foibles 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:44.840 in a good love story in a book or on television. 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:46.000 Now. 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:49.920 I've often wondered if we, in a sense get cursed 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.840 by the fairy tales we're surrounded with when we're looking 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:54.000 for actual love. 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:55.239 But I don't know. 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.720 Perhaps those fairy tales help us past all the difficult 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.720 stuff in a relationship. They get us to ignore the 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:07.240 imperfect things because we believe so strongly in the possibility 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:09.080 of a perfect relationship. 0:18:09.320 --> 0:18:10.440 So think about it this way. 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:14.200 Say you were a space alien who had never watched 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:17.080 or read a love story, and you had no concept 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.879 of that, and the question is, when you met someone, 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:23.040 would you think, Wow, They seem to have very different 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:24.040 opinions than I do. 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:26.320 They think like this, and I think like that. 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:29.480 And they also spend some fraction of their time getting 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:32.040 snippy at me or staring at their cell phone or whatever. 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.119 So there's no way this can work. 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:35.320 I don't know. 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.359 I'm just speculating here, but I do wonder if seeing 0:18:38.480 --> 0:18:42.440 lots of models of love stories gives us the tools 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:46.080 to view things in a more optimistic light, and that 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:48.400 actually gives a chance. 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:50.040 To make the relationship work. 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:55.159 In other words, it provides some aspirational glue where otherwise 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:59.280 things would just fall apart. Now, the counter argument, of course, 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:03.159 is that all these fantasies set you up with false 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:07.280 expectations about love and relationships, which makes it harder to 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:11.280 keep the relationship together once you see some degree of 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:16.880 realism and disenchantment sets in. In any case, even if 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:19.640 we do get cursed by these fairy tales in some way, 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:25.840 it's still the case that there's nothing new about fantasy relationships. Now, 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:29.920 maybe you argue this is different because instead of the 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.840 Julia Roberts movie that everyone watches, it's now something that 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:38.359 is bespoke just for you. It's a one on one relationship, 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.719 and maybe that's an important difference. But just keep in 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:45.880 mind the way that we humans enjoy literature is by 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:50.000 living inside the story. You are essentially having a one 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.639 on one relationship with Julia Roberts. So perhaps it's not 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:58.000 the privacy of the relationship, but instead, the meaningful difference 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:00.160 with an AI relationship. 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:02.640 Is the bi directional nature of it. 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.480 Instead of watching a movie where you're simply hearing other 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:11.360 characters say lines and Julia Roberts responds, you are now 0:20:11.400 --> 0:20:14.160 the one coming up with the lines. You are deciding 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:17.679 what to say. So maybe this makes a difference. I 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:21.400 suspect it enhances the degree of the fantasy. 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.240 So we have yet to see whether. 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:29.280 AI will meaningfully replace people's pursuits of other humans because 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:33.159 it is touchless and smellless, and it's not clear what 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:37.679 the impact is of holding fantasy relationships, because we already 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:41.439 do that with book characters and movie stars. So this 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:44.760 is going to require many years of real world data 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:48.640 to get a real bead on the impact here. Okay, Now, 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:51.520 whatever you think about AI companions, I have noticed in 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:55.159 conversations with my friends, especially those who are married, a 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:59.560 question that floats quickly to the surface. Is it cheating 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.840 to have a relationship on your phone with a non 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:06.119 real person? And there are different levels, of course of 0:21:06.200 --> 0:21:09.320 what an AI relationship could be. What if it's just 0:21:09.359 --> 0:21:12.840 an app like replica that checks in with you like 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:15.240 a friend who cares about you, and you can just 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:18.440 chat innocently with it. This is the free version of 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:21.080 the app, Okay, so that's one level. But what if 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:23.920 you go in for the paid version, where the conversation 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:27.639 with the avatar becomes more spicy? And what if the 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:33.280 cartoon like avatar is highly attractive and dressed provocatively and 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:38.000 is extremely suggestive in what she says. So I've informally 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:41.440 surveyed several married friends about this, and it seems clear 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:46.159 that opinions are all over the spectrum. Some wives and 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:50.480 husbands feel fine about having their partner have an AI relationship, 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:54.159 on the side, and others said no way. Now, for 0:21:54.200 --> 0:21:57.359 those who said no way, this is presumably because the 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:01.200 issue plugs into very deep so chetry in their brain. 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:04.919 It's interpreted as a threat to the relationship, and we 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:10.200 are hardwired to fight against that. From an evolutionary perspective, 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:13.240 what you want is for your mate to stick around 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:17.679 and provide resources and child rearing, and anything that represents 0:22:17.720 --> 0:22:21.200 a threat to that is to be fought against. Now, 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:24.159 the part that seems interesting here is that an AI 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:29.920 avatar would not represent a direct threat in this evolutionary sense. 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:34.560 You can't go and impregnate or be impregnated by AI. 0:22:35.800 --> 0:22:40.760 But nonetheless your attention might be stolen away to some degree, 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:44.480 possibly to a large degree, and beyond an evolutionary threat. 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:46.840 A big part of what people get out of a 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:51.000 relationship is the love and the attention that we all crave. 0:22:51.760 --> 0:22:54.720 So many people feel that they just don't want the 0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:57.840 AI bought to steal away even a fraction of that. 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:00.959 A partner only has so much much love and attention 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:03.800 to give in a day, and you don't want half 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:07.520 of it getting siphoned off to someone or something else. 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:13.080 This shares some similarities to the situation of a person 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:16.320 having an X that they still talk with, and if 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:19.960 a person talks very intimately with their ex, a spouse 0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:23.720 might feel like she or he doesn't really love that. Now, 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:26.399 when it comes to the X, if you were making 0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:30.520 the evolutionary argument, you could argue that the fear is 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:33.720 that on a lonely night, in the middle of a conflict, 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:36.800 your partner might make a bad choice and slip back 0:23:36.880 --> 0:23:40.639 into a physical relationship, and so that relationship with the 0:23:40.840 --> 0:23:45.320 X feels like a threat. But obviously the kernal cheating 0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:48.639 can't happen with the AI bought, and yet the fear 0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:49.320 is still there. 0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:51.480 So that indicates one of two things. 0:23:51.640 --> 0:23:58.360 Either are evolutionarily programmed deep fears simply can't make that distinction, 0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:02.480 or it does have to do with a future threat 0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:05.879 of physical infidelity, but instead it's just this issue about 0:24:06.160 --> 0:24:10.240 somebody else having that emotional intimacy with your partner, which 0:24:10.320 --> 0:24:15.520 steals away attentional resources from you. Now this gets more 0:24:15.600 --> 0:24:19.399 interesting when we start thinking about having physical robots that 0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:20.720 can play a role in your life. 0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:22.840 Now, this is probably not going to happen in the. 0:24:22.800 --> 0:24:26.680 Next few years, but fast forward a century and certainly 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:28.480 everyone's going to face this scenario. 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:31.159 Your partner can buy not. 0:24:31.080 --> 0:24:33.800 Just a mechanical device or blow up doll, but can 0:24:33.840 --> 0:24:39.200 now have a convincing and attentive physical partner. So the 0:24:39.320 --> 0:24:41.640 question is what if your spouse can get not only 0:24:41.680 --> 0:24:46.960 the emotional intimacy but also the physical intimacy. So the 0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:50.040 people I surveyed about this who found the AI bot 0:24:50.160 --> 0:24:53.399 online a threat seem to find this idea of an 0:24:53.440 --> 0:24:58.520 AI physical robot even a larger threat. Now, the interesting 0:24:58.520 --> 0:25:00.200 thing is that I can point out that they're there's 0:25:00.240 --> 0:25:02.760 a sense in which none of this is different from 0:25:02.800 --> 0:25:06.440