1 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stuff. 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:09,399 Speaker 1: I've never told your protection of I Heart Radio as 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: how stuff works. But today we're actually tackling something that 4 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: I tried to do a year ago. I always started 5 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: working on this outline a year ago and was so 6 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: confused and torn about um, a lot of things that 7 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: were happening in my life and uh, this whole idea 8 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: of what we're talking about today, forgiveness. Right, So it's 9 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 1: been sitting in our folder for over a year. Yeah, 10 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,560 Speaker 1: it's been there since I've even started. Yeah, I would 11 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: like start on it and then get frustrated and go 12 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: away from it. But it has been on my mind 13 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: a lot lately, and we did want to talk about 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: forgiveness today, especially since we're in this holiday season, as 15 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: we recorded, and supposed to be purportedly a time of gifness. Oh, 16 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: I thought, that's just when you tell people things, you know, 17 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: like the love actually bit, Oh God, don't talk to 18 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: me about love. Actually, I really don't know that much 19 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: about them actually, other than Alan Rickman was a cheater 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,479 Speaker 1: to confess whatever the truth are, and you know you're 21 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: supposed to be honest. Okay, that's where the whole like 22 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: signage sign be like, hey, I know you're married to 23 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: my best friend, but hey, I love you. We talked 24 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,199 Speaker 1: about that forever ago and we actually got all our response. 25 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 1: People have strong opinions about that movie. They do. Yeah, 26 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: I like it. Apparently a lot of people do like it. No, 27 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: you know, as long as you can recognize some problematic 28 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: things that that's fine. Yeah. True later episode, but for 29 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: this one trigger warning before we get started, for brief 30 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: mentions of rape and sexual assault and domestic violence, but 31 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: very brief. We're just going to talk about how that 32 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: can play into forgiveness. And I'm someone who I've discovered 33 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: is terrible at forgiveness. Um. I have a huge tolerance. 34 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: You can do a lot of things before I say, 35 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: you know what, You've done enough, and then I like 36 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:20,520 Speaker 1: wipe my hands of you. I cannot forgive you. Um. 37 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: And so I have never actually been to the point 38 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: of granting forgiveness. UM. And I am at the point 39 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: now where I do want to. I'm in the stage 40 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: that I want to, but I have an emotional block 41 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: around it. Like even if mentally I think you know what, okay, 42 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: I want to move on, there's something that I can't 43 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: go up emotionally, so that's kind of where I am. UM. 44 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: And a year ago, I was running on the beltline, 45 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: which is one of my favorite things, and the song 46 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: It's quite Uptown from Hamilton's came on. If you've never 47 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: heard that song, Um, it's about Hamilton's and his wife Eliza, 48 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: UM and the idea of forgiveness because he cheated on her. 49 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: And I know a lot of people are going to 50 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: write in that we didn't mention that in our political 51 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: scandal episode. It's been talked about a lot. But if 52 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: you guys want us to talk about it, I happily, 53 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,239 Speaker 1: happily will. I love Hamilton's. But anyway, UM, I've heard 54 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: that song hundreds of time, probably not even exaggeration a 55 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: hundred times, but that time something about it stopped me 56 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: in my tracks and I started crying, um because of 57 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: this idea of forgiveness and the power of it, and 58 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: something just clicked UM. And it's ever since then, it's 59 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: just kind of been in the back of my brain. 60 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: And I do want to say before we get into this, 61 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: forgiveness is deeply, deeply, deeply personal. We are not in 62 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: the business of telling anyone that they should forgive someone 63 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: and no one else should be either. Um. There's a 64 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: long history of women being gaslighted to forgive um, or 65 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: that concept of forgiveness being weaponized against women, and we 66 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: aren't we are going to touch on that, but I 67 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: just want to say I think forgiveness has gotten wrapped 68 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: up in it's a good thing to do, and therefore 69 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: you should do it. There are benefits to it, but 70 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: you really don't have to if you don't want to, 71 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: and in fact, doing so can be detrimental. All right, 72 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: So let's start with some basics from the Greater Good magazine. 73 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: Psychologists generally defined forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to 74 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or 75 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,640 Speaker 1: group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually 76 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: deserve your forgiveness. And that's key because I used to 77 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 1: get myself in an unhealthy logic trap of deserve whether 78 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: or not the person deserved it. But it's not about them, um, 79 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 1: and what they do or do not deserve. It is 80 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: about you and what you want, which is actually a 81 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: great segue into what forgiveness isn't. It does not mean 82 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: forgetting or minimizing or excusing or condoning. It does not 83 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: mean reconciliation or accepting continued wrongdoing, and it doesn't free 84 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: the other party from being accountable to the law. It 85 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: is about letting go of negative emotions that the forgiver 86 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: wants to let go self. Forgiveness can also be extremely liberating, 87 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: extremely yeah, and confusing. Forgiveness and reconciliation is common and inaccurate. 88 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: Waiting for someone else to reconcile is disempowering, and some 89 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: things can't be paid back, it cannot be reconciled. Equating 90 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: forgiveness with reconciliation with trap someone in that situation and 91 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: a disruptive state of unforgiveness. Forgiveness is also not the 92 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: only path to closure. I'm moving on. Forgiving when you're 93 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 1: not ready is really detrimental, and forgiveness is generally understood 94 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: to hinge on two pieces of information, relationship value of 95 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: the wrongdoer and probability of future wrongdoings. And our culture 96 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: seems to be completely torn when it comes to you forgiveness. 97 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I've seen it as being foolish or weak submissive. 98 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: I've seen it on the opposite end, being called something 99 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: like your duty. It's wrapped up in religion and philosophy, 100 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: in some cases, in relationships and politics. At times that 101 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: we may feels sure from other people to forgive because 102 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: it's the right thing to do, in quotes that it 103 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 1: would doing so would make you a good person. And 104 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: at the same time, we have so many sayings about 105 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: forgiveness to airs to be human, to forgive is divine, 106 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: To understand all is to forgive all. Um. It just 107 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: seems we're all very conflicted about this idea of forgiveness. 108 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: A study conducted by psychologists Charlotte ben Oyan vit Valt 109 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: found that asking participants to remember an instance when someone 110 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: had offended, hurt, or mistreated them resulted in a whole 111 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 1: range of physical responses from increased heart rate, blood pressure, 112 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: muscle tension, and sweating. People described the experience as unpleasant. 113 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: It made them angry, It made them sad, It made 114 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: them feel like they had less control. When they were 115 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 1: asked to imagine forgiving their offender, these physical responses relaxed. 116 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,679 Speaker 1: A survey of fift Americans about how much they practiced 117 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: forgiveness revealed that middle aged and older people forgave at 118 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: higher rates when compared to their younger counterparts, and the 119 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: researchers found a relationship between forgiveness and increased mental health 120 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: and older respondence. So grudges have been linked with increased 121 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: risk of cardiovascular disease and in various ways can compromise 122 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: our immune systems. Grudges can impact future relationships and diminish 123 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: ability to enjoy the present. Forgiveness is important in terms 124 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: of emotional and disengaging from trauma. Forgiving is often emotional 125 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: and painful. A twenty sixteen study divided a group of 126 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: one five students who had recently experienced bullying into three 127 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: scenario groups, forgiveness, revenge, and avoidance. The researchers found that 128 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: both the forgiveness and avoidance groups didn't feel stronger, but 129 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: they did experience a decrease in negative emotions during the 130 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: course of the experiment. The revenge group felt a decrease 131 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: and empowerment, ability to cope, and self esteem. However, the 132 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: forgiveness group experienced the most stress us. This seems to 133 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: demonstrate just how difficult and stressful that the act of 134 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: forgiveness is, and that healing takes time. Forgiveness maybe better 135 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: in the long run, but in the short term it's 136 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: more painful than avoidance or revenge. The researchers suggested that 137 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: perhaps a mixed approach is best avoidance until long enough 138 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: time is passed. Distances passed, then should you so desire 139 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: forgiveness that smart? Another study found that in the context 140 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: of relationships, people who are more likely to pursue revenge 141 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: instead of forgiveness were more likely to go through negative 142 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 1: consequences and conflict. Ultimately, the takeaway was it's really beneficial 143 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: to have tools and strategies ready to deal with the 144 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: rough times. One of these things can be forgiveness. And 145 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: analysis of seventeen studies around relationships and forgiveness found that 146 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: after the betrayal of a partner, the relationship goes often change, 147 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: becoming more about evening the score, winning arguments, and other 148 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: competitive things like that. So forgiveness is suggested as a 149 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: way to return to more balanced relationship. Yeah, and again, 150 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: we're not telling anybody's forgive if they don't want it to, 151 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 1: and of course people are complicated. Some researchers suggest people 152 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: that are generally happier um can more easily forgive and 153 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: report higher levels of happiness. When people are feeling better 154 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 1: about their transgressor like after an apology or some type 155 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: of um physical restitution, they usually experience a decrease in 156 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: physical arousal meaning like symptoms um high blood pressure and 157 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: stuff like that, which makes them more likely to forgive. However, 158 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: we know abusers use this to continue cycles of abuse, 159 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 1: so so something to keep an eye on. Yeah, that's 160 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: definitely a manipulative tactic. Other studies have found decreased stress 161 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: levels and positive health benefits just when adopting a forgiving attitude. 162 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: Since stress has a cumulative effect, these benefits were more 163 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: pronounced in older folks. Some studies suggest that the part 164 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: of the brain associated with forgiveness is the limbic system, 165 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: not the part of the brain associated with reasoned judgment 166 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: as previously thought. The act of forgiveness has long been 167 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: thought to be an emotional one, and it is, but 168 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: recent studies indicate it is a cognitive one as well. Therefore, 169 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: experts recommend cognitive reframing if you're looking to forgive. Evolutionarily, 170 00:10:10,320 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: revenge is easier than forgiveness. The easiest way to deal 171 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: with someone who would harm you is to avoid them 172 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: or to hit back. According to psychologist, revenge is unique 173 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: and that it is motivated by hate, which makes it 174 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 1: different than anger and the belief that just by existing 175 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: someone is doing you harm. Revenge is often disproportionate to 176 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: the original act that inspired the revenge. I know. I 177 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: was about to say I had to write a paper 178 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: on this in French um in college about how why 179 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: is it Most of our action movies start with the 180 00:10:47,320 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: main character's wife getting murdered and then he kills everyone everywhere, 181 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: and it's like so violent and over the top. I 182 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: was about to talk about never mind because it's too many, 183 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 1: because I was like, I was thinking about the Joker, Um, 184 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: But I don't want to say anything that could be 185 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: a spoiler for those who haven't seen it or wanted 186 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 1: to see it. All of that. But yeah, kind of. 187 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 1: I think everybody knows that there's always a backstory, there's 188 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,719 Speaker 1: all and the creation of Batman alone, we know that backstory. 189 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: His revenge is. I have to say, Um, I get 190 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: the appeal of revenge stories, but they do make me 191 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 1: kind of uncomfortable. It's like it's something about them as 192 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: always sort of unsettled me. They're dark. I guess they're 193 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: very dark for sure. For sure. Um, so let's talk 194 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: about the how to for this right. Psychologist Robert in 195 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: Right proposed that forgiveness has four steps, recognizing the anger, 196 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,959 Speaker 1: deciding to forgive, building up compassion for the wrong doer, 197 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 1: and then letting go of negative emotions. Being specific really helped. 198 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: You can only really forgive for what people have done 199 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: to you. Yeah, and reading that was helpful for me 200 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: because the example they gave is if you were as 201 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: a child you witnessed your say father or abuse your mother, 202 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: you can't forgive him for doing that. You can forgive 203 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 1: him for the pain and fear and just hurt that 204 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: he caused you. But it has to be specific to 205 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: what happened to you. If you are the abused, you 206 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: are the want to forgive. Right. It's a bit different 207 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 1: when it comes to forgiving yourself self forgiveness. Accepting responsibility 208 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: is important, but holding onto shame and guilt for too 209 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: long isn't helpful. The first step is similar, recognizing that 210 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: you're in the wrong and your actions caused pain. Then 211 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: you dig a bit deeper, identifying why it happened and 212 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: what was in your control and what wasn't in your control. 213 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: Pinpoint lessons you learned and how you can avoid a 214 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: similar situation in the future. When you've taken these steps 215 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 1: forgive yourself, allowed or on paper, then if another party 216 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: is involved, apologize. We're gonna get more into apology later, um, 217 00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 1: but you apologize genuinely and not afecting anything from the 218 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,719 Speaker 1: other person. Um, and then take steps to make things right. 219 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: If you're looking to forgive but struggling, there are support 220 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: groups and counseling out there that can help. Some other 221 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 1: tips are practicing empathy, reflecting on times you've heard others 222 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,959 Speaker 1: and um, what was going on in your head when 223 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: you did right, and your journal if you have a journal. 224 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 1: If you don't, I recommend getting one UM or meditation. Also, 225 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: if you can't forgive UM patients, be patient. It is 226 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: hard and it takes time. Yeah. And again we're not 227 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,959 Speaker 1: saying that you have to know this is completely based 228 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: on you. And also if, and this is a big 229 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: if the wrong doer shows no signs of changing, it 230 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 1: is toxic. It is an unhealthy relationship and it will 231 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: always be unhealthy. Right. Um. Yeah, distance from someone like that. 232 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: You can still forgive if you would like to write, 233 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: but distance is key. That person won't keep hurting you 234 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 1: because you forgiving doesn't mean you have to repeat the 235 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,440 Speaker 1: harm that's happening to you. Yes, exactly, UM. And we 236 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: did want to specifically at um some some studies around 237 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 1: women and forgiveness. But first we have a quick break 238 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsor and we're back, Thank 239 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: you sponsor. Okay. So, there actually have been a lot 240 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: of studies looking into this. UM. One of them is 241 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: from It's a study from the University of the Basque 242 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 1: Country and it looked into gender differences and forgiveness and 243 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: the study found that women are better at forgiving UM. 244 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: The study authors suspect that women are more empathetic than men. 245 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: That was one of the reasons they gave, which is 246 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: key when it comes to forgiveness. Women, especially older women, 247 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: seem to reap more of the benefits of forgiveness as well. 248 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: Even women who reported feeling that they themselves were unforgiven, 249 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: they also felt those benefits. I think holding onto things 250 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: is just tiring. That's what I've learned as I'm getting older, 251 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: and I'm just tired of being angry at you. Um. 252 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: So one study showed that forgiveness can make men feel weak, 253 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: and that more forgiving men suffer from higher levels of 254 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: depression as compared to less forgiving men self. Forgiving men 255 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: fare better, but forgiving others didn't show the same positive link. 256 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: The scientists behind the study believe that because forgiveness is 257 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: seen as a more feminine thing, it is painted as 258 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: weak and in general, for a variety of reasons, men 259 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: are less forgiving than women when it comes to sexual 260 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: abuse against women. There are a lot of misconceptions that 261 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: to forgive means that you don't report sexual assault, or 262 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: that if you do, you haven't forgiven the person, or 263 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: that forgiving someone means that you're totally cool with them. 264 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: None of these things are true, and pressing women to 265 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: forgiven abuser who is unrepetant and still in their lives 266 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: is dangerous. Sharon Lamb's essay Women Abuse and Forgiveness a 267 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: Special Case argues that women are a special class of 268 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: victims and possible forgivers, and that women quote may have 269 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: some particular reasons not to forgive, and she goes on 270 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: to ask why is it that we have so much 271 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: trouble with the woman who will not forgive? Janice Hawkins 272 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: essay The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly Psychoanalytic and 273 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: cultural perspectives on Forgiveness also digs into the feminism of 274 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: forgiveness and goes out of her way to make the 275 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: point that forgiveness is neither good or bad. She writes, 276 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: as oppressed groups gain the strength to speak up and 277 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: claim new rights, including their right to disengage from abusive relationships, 278 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: the powerful rediscover the salutary virtue of forgiveness. Basically, forgiveness 279 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: benefits them for hurting other people. Um and this brings 280 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: us to gas lighting. Women are frequently made to feel 281 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: guilty if they don't forgive. Scorned, bitter cold. These are 282 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: ways to stigmatize unforgiving women and pressure them to forgive. 283 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: It's another way of dismissing women as emotional and invalidating 284 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: their probably completely legitimate reactions. It flips the story so 285 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: that the woman is to blame. She's just bitter, overreacting, irrational, 286 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: sensitive drama queen petty. It is on her um. Any 287 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: negative emotions she's experiencing are her fault. She should be 288 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: the better person and forgive again. Forgiving or not forgiving. 289 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 1: It's the choice, very personal one. Yeah, so we've seen 290 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: examples with the Kavanaugh case in itself that like it's 291 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: so long ago. He was just a kid. Can't you 292 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: let that go? You're just being petty. It's so absurd 293 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,600 Speaker 1: that they're that more likely to call her names rather 294 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: than keep accountability for those who were responsible for the action. Yeah, totally. UM. 295 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: When Selma Hiak wrote UM in The New York Times 296 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: about her reasons for not speaking up about Harvey Weinstein's 297 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: sexual harassment, one of the reasons she gave was that 298 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: she was proud of her capacity for forgiveness, and and 299 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: this essay was when she was sort of being like, 300 00:17:58,080 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: this is why I didn't do it, and I know 301 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: that easier I should have. I not should have, But 302 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: it was her looking back on why she didn't, and 303 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: that makes perfect sense. So some arguments put forth that 304 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: for some women trying to distance themselves from the angry 305 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 1: feminist stereo type, they might be more forgiving, which you know, 306 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 1: that's always a really bad negative. A similar argument can 307 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: has been made that black people are asked and expected 308 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: to forgive white racist without ever getting so much as 309 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 1: an apology or even recognition, which we can talk about 310 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: with UM. The slavery and just people doing like why 311 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: are you keep bringing that up? And it's like, what 312 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: the hell, y'all, really why because it's important and we 313 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: need to acknowledge the trauma that it has caused and 314 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 1: it still continues to cause. So let's talk about religion, 315 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: because I think that's one of the big things where 316 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 1: we talk about forgiveness. There's sixty two passages in the 317 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 1: Bible that include the word forgive, and then there's twenty 318 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: seven passages that contain the word forgiveness. That is a lot. 319 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: Some religions do connect forgiveness with being a good person, 320 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: especially for women. There have been multiple instances of numerous 321 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: women reporting sexual abuse by church leaders to other church 322 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: leaders and being told they must forgive to get into heaven, 323 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: and by forgive they meant don't tell anybody. Right, in 324 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 1: some interpretations of Christianity, people can't forgive it all. Only 325 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: God can forgive um. So there's a lot going on there. 326 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: There are a lot of pressures here around this idea 327 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: of forgiveness. I don't think it's just an old idea 328 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: in itself, forgiveness and what it's supposed to do, and 329 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: it is kind of absolving people who have committed since essentially, 330 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: and I think it is a good balance to understand 331 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: what is right for you. Yes, yes, um, And we 332 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 1: do have a little bit more about that, but first 333 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: we have one more quick break for word from our 334 00:19:52,160 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: sponsor and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So I guess 335 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: one of the biggest takeaways for me is that I 336 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: am going to reframe how I think about forgiveness. I'm 337 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: gonna make it all about me, um, because in this 338 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: case I am the wrong um and UM, I'm just 339 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: gonna think of it almost like it has nothing to 340 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: do with the other person. UM. If you are the 341 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: ones seeking forgiveness um, which can mean just apologizing and 342 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: leaving the other person to hell, that will make it 343 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:43,719 Speaker 1: all about them. Um. And yeah. A few situations are 344 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 1: so black and white, it's been for me. Everybody has 345 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: such a specific story and it's complex in its own way. UM. 346 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: So it's hard to give really good specific advice. But 347 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: here are some general ideas that might help, and a 348 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: quick note about how to apologize. UM. A good apology 349 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 1: can open up a dialogue and is the beginnings of 350 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,959 Speaker 1: re establishing trust. Or it can be it entails um 351 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: that you show remorse, you acknowledge that you caused hurt. 352 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: It has to be sincere and not flip it around 353 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: to make it the other person's fault, like it was 354 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: just a joke. I'm sorry you felt hurt. Um. I 355 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: think that's probably one of the biggest sins when it 356 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: comes to apologies is that you make excuses. And I've 357 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: done it too. Um. You make excuses for your behavior 358 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: and make it like the other person was overreacting. So 359 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 1: if you're apologizing with a but yes, don't do that, 360 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: or if you apologizing i'm sorry you write the youth statements, 361 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 1: go ahead stop. Yeah, yeah, it's better. A short apology 362 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 1: is better than any kind of long winded here's my excuse. Um. 363 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: A good apology also involves making amends, providing something actionable 364 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: to show your serious um, putting yourself in the other 365 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 1: person's shoes, and honestly trying to understand why they were hurt. Um. 366 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 1: Then offer steps to make sure that whatever it was 367 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: doesn't happen again. Um. Yes, don't do not make it 368 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: about you. Apologies also got to be said, are sometimes 369 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: hurtful and unwelcome, So if you're doing it to make 370 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: yourself feel better, that is not a good apology. And 371 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: also remember impact matters more than intention. I think a 372 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: lot of people get caught in that that trap as well. UM, 373 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,920 Speaker 1: and I can and have written a paper on this, 374 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: my infamous essay about doing the dishes. It was about 375 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: a lot more than that, but I used the dishes 376 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: as a case study. I really don't like doing dishes. 377 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: I really really don't. UM. And then I've I've kind 378 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 1: of noticed in my life I feel like some people 379 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: blame me for things, and I'm not sure what they are. UM. 380 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: So it's hard to apologize her. I'm not even sure 381 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: that I need to apologize. But this is a time 382 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: when I need to remember all of the episodes where 383 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: we have sung the praises of communication. Yes, always talk 384 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 1: to each other. When one of Bill Cosby's alleged victims 385 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: was asked by Anderson Cooper, can you forget something like this? 386 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: Her response was, I forgave Bill cost but years ago. 387 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: For me, when you hold onto resentment for someone like that, 388 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 1: it's not hurting them, it's only hurting you. And I 389 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 1: think that's very valid Um for all of us. I 390 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: think I felt the same way, and I'm sure you 391 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 1: have to when you have been a victim from someone 392 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 1: that you may never see again, that you have to 393 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: forgive maybe not even just forgive, but let it go 394 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 1: and that's the best you can do for yourself. Um. 395 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: I think that's recently. It came up in one of 396 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: my therapy sessions lately, and she said there's a quote like, 397 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 1: not forgiving it is like drinking poison, inspecting the other 398 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: person to die, or not not forgiving, but not letting 399 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: go because yeah, they probably in some cases at least 400 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 1: they don't care. It's not anything to them. It is difficult, 401 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 1: though it's easier said than we understand that. And I 402 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: still have questions around forgiveness. UM. I got caught up 403 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: in this whole idea of some things may just truly 404 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: be unforgivable. Um. But I do think I want to forgive. 405 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: I think I'm in that stage. But before that I can, 406 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:32,880 Speaker 1: I have to deal with a lot of the fallout 407 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: that I've been avoiding for so long. I think that's 408 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: the emotional block, is that I've just been avoiding. Um. 409 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: And apparently this is an idea that's been on my 410 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: brain for a very long time because one of my 411 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: favorite things I've written, the D and D character that 412 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: I played to finish out the end of the story. 413 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 1: I like that you were just having like figure rings 414 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 1: on across our Death Season miniature many of her UM. 415 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 1: It's all about UM forgiveness or not forgiving, and revenge 416 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: and redemption, and it's interesting to see how it's evolved 417 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: as I've continued to write it. UM. But that is 418 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: about what we have to say on forgiveness today. We 419 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: would love to hear from listeners any wisdom's truths or 420 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,240 Speaker 1: just stories they have about forgiveness or not forgiveness UM. 421 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: And we have heard from some listeners already that we 422 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: would like to read here now. Marie wrote, I was 423 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: super excited when I saw you were doing spooky episodes 424 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 1: for October, especially the Female Monsters episode. I just want 425 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 1: to tell you about one of my favorite books, which 426 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: not only features a badass monster eating primordial goddess who 427 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: very often refers to herself as a monster as a protagonist, 428 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: but she's also got a female romantic interest. The book 429 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: is called The One Who Eats Monsters by Casey Matthews, 430 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: and it's incredible book. As a recently out lesbian, I've 431 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: been trying to consume as much lgbt Q plus fiction 432 00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: as possible, mostly sci fi fantasy literature. Involving lesbians. I've 433 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 1: had to score are the internet and bookstores to get 434 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: my fixed, and I've noticed that there's definitely been an 435 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 1: increase in the amount of representation and fiction, especially among protagonists. Anyway, 436 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 1: I just want to tell you all about my favorite book. 437 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: I'd love it if you did an episode on queer 438 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 1: literature or badass lesbians in literature. We would love that too. 439 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: And one of the reasons I wanted to read this 440 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: is listeners. If you've got some examples, send them our away. 441 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 1: I definitely have some I could contribute as well. And 442 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: then we have a letter from Marissa, my friend Marissa'll 443 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: look at out you like that, but she wrote this 444 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: um and I responded like I do to any listener, 445 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: as if I didn't know her. So I hope you 446 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: enjoyed that, Mirissa. She wrote, I have to throw my 447 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: two cents in on my experience with the opioid crisis. First, 448 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: my background is a traveling ear nurse. At this point 449 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 1: in my career, I've worked in six different states Georgia, Massa, Tustats, California, 450 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: I'll ask the Colorado and Maine. As a medical professional 451 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: and the trenches of this opioid epidemic. I can assure 452 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 1: you this is truly a problem everywhere. However, there is 453 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,679 Speaker 1: one e ER assignment that stands out. This community was 454 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: being devastated by heroin. Every night. We had at least 455 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: a handful of O d s overdoses. This was a 456 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 1: big seventy five bed e er. Narcan had to be 457 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: so readily available that there were internasal narcan rapid response 458 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 1: boxes installed on the walls and strategic locations all around 459 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 1: the e R. For instance, they had a box and 460 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 1: triage due to so many people being dropped off in 461 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,159 Speaker 1: front with O d s not breathing. All of the police, 462 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,840 Speaker 1: firefighters and e m s carried narcan and knew how 463 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: to use it. I would like to share a little 464 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: narcan knowledge with you. First, you must know what a 465 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: drug half life is, the time it takes the drug 466 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: concentration to reach less than the starting dose in the body. 467 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: I don't want to get too technical, but essentially heroin 468 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: works longer than the antidote Narcan nalaczone. Narcan brings them 469 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: out of their high fasts and many times these slumped 470 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: over lifeless O d s would reanimate rather violently and combatively. 471 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: It's hard to rationalize with an addict who's come violently 472 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: out of their high to stay there recommended four hours 473 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 1: after narcan. So essentially, I'm rying to let anyone out 474 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: there that has to administered narcan no to keep watching 475 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 1: your friend or loved one. The half life of narcan 476 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: is shorter than that of heroin, so essentially you can 477 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: be revived from the brink of an O D death, 478 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,719 Speaker 1: But if you leave too soon or not watch can 479 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 1: get into the same situation again. The drug wave could 480 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: still crash over you and take you under, So continue 481 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: to watch someone for several hours after administering nar can. Also, 482 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 1: Narcan Nalockstone emergency kits are available at almost every pharmacy 483 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: without a prescription. If you're using, please have the safety 484 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 1: plan in place. Go to your nearest pharmacy and get 485 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: an emergency kit. Make sure those around you while you're 486 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: using no where the narcan is and how to use it. 487 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: Call nine one one if the person is not breathing. 488 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: Those that have allergy reactions carry eppens epinephrin. If you're using, 489 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: you should carry narcan. Safe practice is all I want 490 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: to preach. Keep everything clean and have a safety plan. 491 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: Enough people have died this epidemic. It is just joining families. 492 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: Please don't let it take your life. Wow, that's a 493 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: lot of good information that Yeah, I didn't know that either, 494 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: So thanks um Merissa for sharing fighting, Yeah, the good 495 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:14,959 Speaker 1: fight as a nurse. Thank you so much for what 496 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: you're doing. Yeah, Um, and thanks for writing in, taking 497 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: the time and sharing that knowledge. And we would love 498 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 1: to hear from other listeners. Thanks to these too for 499 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: writing in. If you would like to write to us, 500 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: you can our email is Stuff Media mom Stuff at 501 00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 1: i heeart media dot com. You can also find us 502 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast or on Instagram at 503 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: stuff One never told You. Thanks as always to our 504 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 1: superproducer Andrew Howard. Yeah, and thanks to you for listening. 505 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 1: Steph owner told you the protection of I Heart Radios 506 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: how stuff works For more podcasts from Heart Radio is 507 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: our her radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen 508 00:29:52,120 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows. Do you know when you w