Speaker 1: M H. Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties weekly podcast featuring
Speaker 1: conversations with industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment.
Speaker 1: This is Shirley Halperin, executive editor of Music for Variety,
Speaker 1: and my guest today is Tom Wendish, the head of
Speaker 1: business development and a r for the town agency Wasserman Music,
Speaker 1: where his clients include the artists Lord the XX and
Speaker 1: Coachella headliner Billie Eilish. Like the most seasoned of booking agents,
Speaker 1: Tom got his start while still in college Binghamton, New York,
Speaker 1: to be exact. That's where he first caught the bug
Speaker 1: for buzzing bands that were sort of left of center.
Speaker 1: Upon graduating, he had a short lived internship at William
Speaker 1: Marris where he would bug the agents to show him
Speaker 1: the ropes. It's why Tom would name his own company, Bug,
Speaker 1: launched a little over thirty years ago as the rock
Speaker 1: scene was exploding. In fact, the word indie is practically
Speaker 1: baked into Tom's last name, which makes his career track
Speaker 1: seemed practically predestined. Circumstances led him to Chicago, where he
Speaker 1: would build a formidable roster of bands most people had
Speaker 1: never heard of, and he would scale up to include
Speaker 1: dozens more. That led to gaining the attention of the
Speaker 1: budding Midwest booking agency Billions, which took Tom under its
Speaker 1: wing from to two thousand four. For the next thirteen years,
Speaker 1: Tom called the Windish Agency home. He operated a lean
Speaker 1: and mean machine that looked after hundreds of artists, but
Speaker 1: it was his own skills as a talent scout and
Speaker 1: being in the right place at the right time that
Speaker 1: resulted in identifying the singular talent that is Billie Eilish.
Speaker 1: As Billy and other clients got more popular competing agencies,
Speaker 1: he says, we're all trying to steal them. The solution,
Speaker 1: as Tom Windish saw it, was to align with bigger entity.
Speaker 1: He chose Paradigm in seventeen as it was absorbing several
Speaker 1: small to mid size indies like his own. Among them
Speaker 1: the firm's Little Big Man, a m Only Coda and
Speaker 1: X Ray Touring, which brought to the roster such touring
Speaker 1: giants as Ed Sharon Coplay, David Getta and Fish, among
Speaker 1: many many more. Not long after arriving at Paradigm, Tom
Speaker 1: Windish marveled at the health of his industry. Little did
Speaker 1: he know what was coming in the form of COVID.
Speaker 1: The pandemic not only disrupted touring in its physical form,
Speaker 1: it turned the business of live music upside down. All
Speaker 1: agencies were impacted, but Paradigm in particular lost its financial
Speaker 1: footing and began exploring a merger or a sale. The
Speaker 1: buyer would turn out to be Ksey Wasserman, grandson of
Speaker 1: Lou Wasserman, who was among Hollywood's founding fathers, working for
Speaker 1: over eight decades to completely reshape entertainment. The deal for
Speaker 1: Paradigm closed in March, and the agency was re christened
Speaker 1: Wasserman Music. Not surprisingly, Tom was well read on the
Speaker 1: Wasserman dynasty, and it's proven to be an asset as
Speaker 1: he and his new boss navigate the post COVID landscape,
Speaker 1: passing on that guidance to his artists. As Tom Winters
Speaker 1: prepares to fly from his home base of New York
Speaker 1: to India, California for Coachella, where he has multiple acts
Speaker 1: on the bill, he cautiously exhales while recounting the routing
Speaker 1: and supply chain problems COVID has wrought. How Billie Eilish's
Speaker 1: live career progressed memphodically despite second guessing by his peers
Speaker 1: and what he's learned from decades spent directing artists on
Speaker 1: the road. We pick up Tom Story in Chicago in
Speaker 1: the early nineties. Welcome back to Strictly Business. Here's Tom
Speaker 1: win Dish. So, Tom win Dish, thanks so much for
Speaker 1: being on Strictly Business. Welcome, nice to be here. Thanks
Speaker 1: for inviting me. M the indie rock music scene in
Speaker 1: Chicago at that time, this is like ninety something was great,
Speaker 1: Touch and Go Records, Thrilled Jockey, Drag City, Tupelo. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I ended up like meeting tons of people. Everyone
Speaker 1: was super nice, very supportive of each other. Everyone was
Speaker 1: saying you should move here. I think maybe I was
Speaker 1: living with my parents at the time because I was broke.
Speaker 1: I was spending all the money I made on the
Speaker 1: booking on the phone bill, like literally, and he said,
Speaker 1: you can live up above the club. He lived above
Speaker 1: the club too. You can live in this other one
Speaker 1: bedroom or something or studio for a hundred fifty bucks
Speaker 1: a month. So I then went over to Lounge Jackson
Speaker 1: met the people on that place, Sue Miller, and that
Speaker 1: was from Julia and those two clubs were they hated
Speaker 1: each other. Arrivals they were trying to book the same bands.
Speaker 1: They get really upset with you if you booked your
Speaker 1: band at the other club. And they took me out
Speaker 1: to dinner. I said, I'm thinking about moving here. Oh really, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I might live above the empty bottle. He
Speaker 1: said I could live there for a hundred fifty dollars
Speaker 1: and they were like that, you can live above our
Speaker 1: club for hundred bucks a months utiles included. And I
Speaker 1: drove out in January three weeks later, like my car
Speaker 1: full of stuff basically like a file cabinet and dot
Speaker 1: matrix printer and an old McIntosh ch s e this
Speaker 1: big cube computer thing. And and I lived about I mean,
Speaker 1: this was not really an apartment. It was like, I
Speaker 1: don't know what you described it as a room at
Speaker 1: four walls. My kitchen was in a bathroom. The rent
Speaker 1: was great, and I lived above this club. And and
Speaker 1: I never thought twice about like this is a dump.
Speaker 1: This is awful. I was in heaven. You must have
Speaker 1: seen so many amazing shows I did. And the talk
Speaker 1: about Uncle Tupelo. This is when Jeff Tweedy was playing
Speaker 1: their solo all the time and was dating or engaged
Speaker 1: to Sue Miller. They ended up getting married at the
Speaker 1: club when I lived there. It was like the one
Speaker 1: time that I had to like go away for a
Speaker 1: while because they like used my room as like dressing. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But I went to the wedding and everything. It was fantastic.
Speaker 1: And then you know, like probably six months after I
Speaker 1: got to Chicago, Batch from Billions called me up and
Speaker 1: asked if I'd be interested in joining Billions. Tell me
Speaker 1: about him because the listeners of this podcast are definitely
Speaker 1: not familiar with these characters, So describe him. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: he booked Pavement and John Spencer, Blues Explosion and loads
Speaker 1: of bands on Touch and Go and was a legend.
Speaker 1: And I mean he just had one of the best
Speaker 1: independent booking agencies in the country and was on the
Speaker 1: up and up. Jesus A Zero it was another band
Speaker 1: and they were all like doing really well. I had
Speaker 1: so much respect for him. I was afraid of him,
Speaker 1: so I kind of worshiped this guy. Maybe we worked
Speaker 1: out I deally. I went and worked there and it
Speaker 1: was great. Learned a lot. So when did you form
Speaker 1: your own agency? Um? I think I was at Billions
Speaker 1: six or seven years something like that. Maybe a little
Speaker 1: more and I had a little roster of thirty or
Speaker 1: so artists. Remember I put it up. There was like
Speaker 1: one page on the website. Yeah, I have like a
Speaker 1: link to that somewhere or something. It's pretty funny. I
Speaker 1: think there's like a spelling error on it. One of
Speaker 1: the bands was spelled from for a minute. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was a long time ago. I my office was the
Speaker 1: second bedroom of my condo and I had an employee.
Speaker 1: That was the main thing, Like, the main reason I
Speaker 1: wanted to start my own thing was I didn't have
Speaker 1: an assistant, and I was booking a lot of bands
Speaker 1: and doing a lot of the contracts and stuff myself,
Speaker 1: and I thought if I have an assistant, I could
Speaker 1: book more shows. I was there for like eight for
Speaker 1: ten years quite a while. It was great. I'm really
Speaker 1: glad that I started things there and not New York
Speaker 1: in l A. Why do you say that I didn't
Speaker 1: really have like a handle at all on what was
Speaker 1: going on in New York in l A with you know,
Speaker 1: this hot band and that hot band. But I'm happy
Speaker 1: that I wasn't comparing myself to others and losing out
Speaker 1: on things to others. We really carved our own Lane.
Speaker 1: I would say probably other people in the business probably
Speaker 1: hadn't even heard of a lot of the stuff that
Speaker 1: we were signing. God Speed You, Black Emperor Low. We
Speaker 1: signed Diplo early on. I was doing a lot of
Speaker 1: electronic stuff to a lot of people on Warp records
Speaker 1: like Apex Twin really never played, but Square Pusher, aw
Speaker 1: Teckers group, Cold Cut, who started a label called Ninja Tune,
Speaker 1: Kid Koala, and on Tobin, Saint Germain or Sanchoman. So
Speaker 1: like electronic live, which hardly anyone was booking that before
Speaker 1: other than Jerry Girard and his was more mainstream live
Speaker 1: electronic stuff in DJ's and ours was like quite underground.
Speaker 1: They would sell some of them would sell a hundred tickets,
Speaker 1: two hundred tickets, not not very big. And then when
Speaker 1: streaming happened, it was like someone turned a floodlight onto
Speaker 1: these things. Like before a lot of these records you
Speaker 1: just couldn't find. There might be one store or two
Speaker 1: stores in New York and l A and a few
Speaker 1: other spots, and you'd go there and order it and
Speaker 1: it would show up like a month or six weeks later.
Speaker 1: So all of a sudden, streaming and I guess illegal downloading.
Speaker 1: Even I noticed more tickets being sold. Interesting, I mean
Speaker 1: discovery is that that is the challenge of the people
Speaker 1: who make music, who sell music. So one thing about
Speaker 1: the Windows Agency that I remember, even before you joined Paradigm,
Speaker 1: is that you had a lot of acts. Is like
Speaker 1: you scaled up even as an indie. What was the
Speaker 1: thinking behind that and what do you look for in
Speaker 1: an artist? I mean fundamentally, like I'm looking I'm listening
Speaker 1: for music that gives me butterflies or goose bumps, or
Speaker 1: that I just really enjoy that. I like things that
Speaker 1: are a little bit different than anything I've ever heard before,
Speaker 1: whatever element, the way the voice sounds, the way the
Speaker 1: drum sound, the style, and if I hear something that
Speaker 1: I like, especially back then, like you'd hear things you
Speaker 1: like and there was like an audience. You didn't really
Speaker 1: know how big it was, but you could book it
Speaker 1: and put up a few shows, see how it did,
Speaker 1: and then if it went well, like then you do
Speaker 1: some more. I remember signing in this band Jagga jazzi
Speaker 1: Ist or Yaga Yazzis. They were on Ninja Tune. It
Speaker 1: was like an eight piece in Norwegian electronic jazz band.
Speaker 1: I had never heard anything like it. They were incredible.
Speaker 1: I had no idea how it was going to go.
Speaker 1: And we did like three to five tickets to night
Speaker 1: on the first tour in like eight or ten cities,
Speaker 1: and the shows were incredible, and everyone said that was amazing. Um,
Speaker 1: that was a success for us to you know, selling
Speaker 1: that number of tickets was really good. I would sign
Speaker 1: bands or artists that I had never seen before, and
Speaker 1: I remember back then other agents really looking down on that.
Speaker 1: I would never sign a band I haven't seen, and
Speaker 1: I did that because I didn't have the financial means
Speaker 1: to go sign these bands. It didn't make sense for
Speaker 1: me to fly to Norway first to see Jagga jazz
Speaker 1: Is to make sure they were good. Because when they
Speaker 1: toured and they did sell eight cities and three to
Speaker 1: five tickets, that meant we made like four thousand bucks
Speaker 1: or something, you know, or three thousand bucks. You know,
Speaker 1: if I had flown there and stayed in a hotel,
Speaker 1: that would have been half the money. It almost always
Speaker 1: worked out. There's very few times I can remember where
Speaker 1: the band wasn't good, and then you flash forward to today,
Speaker 1: Like Billy had never played a show when I signed her.
Speaker 1: Lord had never played a show when I signed her,
Speaker 1: so and I was fine with it. I just thought,
Speaker 1: they make great music, they'll figure it out. I'll do
Speaker 1: whatever I need to help, but they'll figure it out.
Speaker 1: And if they don't, then we won't do many more shows.
Speaker 1: But they did, I'll figure it out. That's so interesting
Speaker 1: because it's like, that's not how it used to be.
Speaker 1: It was like you had to pay your dues, you
Speaker 1: had to start at the clubs and make your way up.
Speaker 1: And today it's like you can have a giant hit,
Speaker 1: your first record out be playing arenas in no time
Speaker 1: with zero touring experience. I think streaming had a lot
Speaker 1: to do with everything changing, at least for the kind
Speaker 1: of people I worked with, because I mean I saw
Speaker 1: I remember with Hot Chip we did one tour, it
Speaker 1: went well. Streaming kind of took off that. Back then,
Speaker 1: it was like Pirate Bay or whatever it was. You
Speaker 1: could practically google things and find places to like download
Speaker 1: this stuff, and everybody like certain people are just doing
Speaker 1: They had computers running twenty four hours a day just
Speaker 1: downloading stuff. It was like it was like getting the
Speaker 1: keys to fdo Schwartz or something. You have whatever you want.
Speaker 1: But then the next tour they did like there were
Speaker 1: a lot more people there. I'd say, like the chunk
Speaker 1: of their fans were doing that stuff right, probably because
Speaker 1: they couldn't afford to buy the music. That was the
Speaker 1: whole thing. Afford and it's like hard to get your
Speaker 1: hands on it, hard hard to find, of course. Okay,
Speaker 1: so tell me about when disjoined Paradigms in something like that.
Speaker 1: What was the thinking behind that. At the time, you
Speaker 1: had a staff of more than eighty in six cities
Speaker 1: and over a thousand clients. Clearly things were working. So
Speaker 1: what did Paradigm offer? I guess what I felt was
Speaker 1: that the more successful we became, and the more successful
Speaker 1: our artists became m and at the time that meant
Speaker 1: Lord the x ax diplo Odessa Flu, the more intense
Speaker 1: the competition became. It was great when we were under
Speaker 1: the radar and no one had heard of the bands
Speaker 1: in terms of the competition and the stress. And but
Speaker 1: like then, these artists got more popular and the agencies
Speaker 1: were all trying to steal them, and they would say no,
Speaker 1: but then the agency would go back again a month
Speaker 1: or two or three later, and that went on for years,
Speaker 1: so that it felt like towards the end like these
Speaker 1: people were offering their relative enough they would change I'll
Speaker 1: give you my my my house or something, and I
Speaker 1: was like, jeez, what else is going to happen? And
Speaker 1: I was always thinking what this started almost day one
Speaker 1: when I started Windance Agency. What can we do to
Speaker 1: provide a better service to the artist. I know it
Speaker 1: sounds like everyone does that, but I was the first
Speaker 1: agency to start password protected webs site where you could
Speaker 1: see how much you were being paid and if we
Speaker 1: had the deposit and the signed contract and all those things.
Speaker 1: Very sounds incredibly simple. Now. We had a tour marketing department.
Speaker 1: I think before anybody, we had a branding department. These
Speaker 1: were all things like I was either thinking, what's gonna
Speaker 1: be helpful for the artists, what are they gonna appreciate,
Speaker 1: what's gonna help sell more tickets? Or what is everybody
Speaker 1: else saying they do? And we need to compete with that?
Speaker 1: We need to like have an answer. We had people
Speaker 1: that would like help with acting or would meet with
Speaker 1: our artists and basically asked like, what are your dreams
Speaker 1: outside of music and then go and try and implement
Speaker 1: them and they did very interesting things, and we did
Speaker 1: that for years. I basically got to a point where
Speaker 1: I thought it's never gonna be enough. I could have
Speaker 1: twenty people doing these things instead of six and still
Speaker 1: wouldn't be enough because it's all about perception, not reality.
Speaker 1: So I need to join one. And the perception is
Speaker 1: like bigger, bigger, better, we'll get more from the artist.
Speaker 1: So I did it. You know, I went with ones
Speaker 1: that were nice people, and they had all been indies too.
Speaker 1: They were really cut from the same cloth. Paradigms or
Speaker 1: Party Diamonds Company, Little big Man Am Only Monterey, Dakota
Speaker 1: may have come after, I can't remember. And when I
Speaker 1: would speak with these people, the former owners of these agencies,
Speaker 1: they sort of had the same experience as me in
Speaker 1: different ways. They all started these things like in the
Speaker 1: second bedroom or in a little garage or whatever, and
Speaker 1: it group And I don't know, there's something about that
Speaker 1: DNA that makes you feel comfortable, right, Were you being
Speaker 1: courted by the other agencies? Yeah? What was that like?
Speaker 1: I mean, it's nice to be wanted. Did you feel
Speaker 1: like the way that they sort of sell the artists.
Speaker 1: I'm like, we'll do this for you and this will happen.
Speaker 1: We have these whatever tools. I mean, it's interesting because
Speaker 1: back then, like I didn't really know they say that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: they say they have all these things, they say they
Speaker 1: do all these things. I wasn't really sure like which
Speaker 1: one is telling the truth or which one is the
Speaker 1: most true? Right, Well, so that's really going to do it.
Speaker 1: This is what the artists go through, right when CIA
Speaker 1: and W M E and U t A are all yeah,
Speaker 1: and when they have to choose a label. Yeah, that's true,
Speaker 1: you know, um, and I guess ultimately it kind of
Speaker 1: comes down to your gut again where you feel most comfortable,
Speaker 1: which was obviously paradigm for you. Yeah. Yeah, let's talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about festivals, because we're coming out of
Speaker 1: this very dark couple of years which really upended the
Speaker 1: touring industry. But we're days away from Coachella at this point.
Speaker 1: Lollapalooza went off without a hitch. What's your view of
Speaker 1: the return of festivals, Amid Covid. I mean, I went
Speaker 1: to the Lalla Closa. I figured it was great. I
Speaker 1: went to us the city limits. It felt like every
Speaker 1: other obsously limits. I went to it was great. They
Speaker 1: waited in lines for food. I saw a ton of bands.
Speaker 1: It was really good. How do I feel about it?
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm really happy it's back. What was the
Speaker 1: pandemic like for you? As a booking person? It was
Speaker 1: brutal and horrible in a lot of ways. You like
Speaker 1: to see everything you've built and what you do. I
Speaker 1: would say booking and live shows, that's the thing that
Speaker 1: that makes me tick, that's the thing that excites me.
Speaker 1: And to not have that sort of it swept out
Speaker 1: from under you and and sometimes thinking like this is
Speaker 1: ever going to come back, just not really knowing it
Speaker 1: really sucks. Yeah, and probably something you've never experienced. Hell no,
Speaker 1: of course not. Yeah. It was I mean sometimes very awful,
Speaker 1: very stressful. And then also it's a responsibility to guide
Speaker 1: artists make them feel like it's going to be okay.
Speaker 1: It was really brutal a lot of ways. There were
Speaker 1: a lot of silver linings, but definitely being able to
Speaker 1: spend lots of extra time with my son when he
Speaker 1: was one and two years old, it was amazing and
Speaker 1: I feel just so grateful that I got to do
Speaker 1: that because normally I would travel every week or two
Speaker 1: and go out to a show every other night and
Speaker 1: that's what I do. Now you're back. I'm back. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I was talking to someone today. It was asking me, like,
Speaker 1: do you think that, like we'll do less small trips
Speaker 1: and not go to as many shows. I said, I'd
Speaker 1: like to think that would be the case. But I'm
Speaker 1: going to shows every night now and I'm on a
Speaker 1: plane every week for the next eight weeks. I feel
Speaker 1: like it will go back to that, at least for
Speaker 1: a while. I mean, yeah, maybe I'll say no to
Speaker 1: some things, but there's an awful lot going on, and
Speaker 1: I'm also happy and grateful that it's going on. We
Speaker 1: need to take a quick break, but we'll be back
Speaker 1: with more from Tom Wendish, and we're back with Wasserman
Speaker 1: Muse six Tom Wendish. I mean, Billie Eilish's tour was
Speaker 1: one of those tours that that was impacted. It seemed
Speaker 1: like she was able to pivot, do a lot of
Speaker 1: other projects, be available for awards shows and things like that.
Speaker 1: But what were those conversations like about having the postpone
Speaker 1: a tour for a year or maybe two years. Who knows,
Speaker 1: she might have a new album by then. You could
Speaker 1: be a completely different cycle. They were repetitive because we
Speaker 1: did it several times. Yeah, and it wasn't just with hers,
Speaker 1: with everybody. You'd get to the point where you're moving
Speaker 1: moving the thing for like the third or fourth time,
Speaker 1: and it feels like you're beating a dead horse or something,
Speaker 1: and it's I mean, it's not great. I've had this
Speaker 1: feeling the other night. I've been feeling really happy to
Speaker 1: be out at shows. There have been moments where I've
Speaker 1: been overwhelmed with emotion or goose bumps or tears. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's actually like quite a beautiful thing to be even
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how big the artist is, whether they're
Speaker 1: playing the twenty people or a hundred, to be there
Speaker 1: and just to be so happy that like this amazing
Speaker 1: musical moments happening, you're in a room with all these people,
Speaker 1: you realize, like this is why I do it, and
Speaker 1: this thing that the reason I do it, being in
Speaker 1: the room and experiencing these things and helping to bring
Speaker 1: this joy to these fans and musicians. Like not having
Speaker 1: that and doing it for two years, like it was dark,
Speaker 1: Like it kind of sucks talking about shows that are
Speaker 1: sort of fictional might happen. And I'm really glad that
Speaker 1: the things I'm talking about now are really happening. It's
Speaker 1: the same for the artists and for the fans and
Speaker 1: for the promoters. It's amazing. Like sometimes I go backstage
Speaker 1: after the show and we're hugging each other and we're
Speaker 1: all like so happy that they have that feeling too,
Speaker 1: and when they're on stage they get it. It's not
Speaker 1: just me. It comes to like rescheduling a tour, like
Speaker 1: there are many challenges that pop up with that, the
Speaker 1: availability of venues and what kind of things were you
Speaker 1: up against when you were moving a major tour two three,
Speaker 1: four times, other people that want the buildings to and
Speaker 1: as you push things back further and further into the future,
Speaker 1: you just run into more and more people that are planning.
Speaker 1: Everyone's planning a tour, and it feels like you're kind
Speaker 1: of squishing into a time when just everybody wants the
Speaker 1: same real estate and it's hard to get. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean we were talking about it before. How when
Speaker 1: I first started doing this, artist booked themselves so they
Speaker 1: kind of understood the routing process and stuff. But most
Speaker 1: are almost all artists these days, have not done that
Speaker 1: at least like at the level that I'm dealing with.
Speaker 1: I was talking too artists the other day. It was
Speaker 1: like they couldn't understand why they had to drive from
Speaker 1: Washington to Boston and it was like nine and a
Speaker 1: half hours or something, and it's like, I know, that
Speaker 1: sucks it as of bales, And normally, I'm sort of
Speaker 1: known for booking things very far in advance, and part
Speaker 1: of the reason for that is to just get perfect rating.
Speaker 1: But that's not really possible these days. I mean, I'm
Speaker 1: booking shows for next spring, and so is everybody else basically,
Speaker 1: and summer and fall, and even the tours that like,
Speaker 1: let's say got going like the end of one, they
Speaker 1: had to deal with like different state laws about COVID,
Speaker 1: so the routing really could be funky where it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: we can't play that venue because they don't require masks
Speaker 1: or whatever. I mean, were you running up against that too.
Speaker 1: I didn't run into that so much. It was mostly
Speaker 1: what's going to be happening with COVID next week? And
Speaker 1: I just felt like every day I still sort of
Speaker 1: feel this way, but definitely like last fall when I
Speaker 1: had a lot of people on tour again, every day
Speaker 1: you wake up and wondering, like, what's going to happen today.
Speaker 1: Is it gonna be okay or not? I will say
Speaker 1: like this year, there's been a very high number of
Speaker 1: just odd things that have happened that lead to cancelations,
Speaker 1: like one of them, and they're all like sort of
Speaker 1: active god type things. One of my bands, one of
Speaker 1: my clients they had there, the trailer was stolen, all
Speaker 1: the equipment, so they can't play the show that day.
Speaker 1: Some of the supply chain related. Also, something breaks in
Speaker 1: your van, they can't get the part. That's happening with
Speaker 1: busses a lot. You know, last night the sound was
Speaker 1: all messed up, but at a really good club, and
Speaker 1: I was asking the club, the owner or whatever, what's
Speaker 1: the deal. We've had four different sound people in the
Speaker 1: last four weeks, and this is like a premier venue,
Speaker 1: really good club. Well, they can't find a sound person
Speaker 1: that is like a very good sound person. A lot
Speaker 1: of sound people when it got another job. So that's
Speaker 1: also a supply chain issue. That's the supply chain issue.
Speaker 1: And then they also had issues with the equipment and
Speaker 1: they can't get it fixed because the parts have and arrived.
Speaker 1: And then people are getting COVID left and right. Still
Speaker 1: they're sick, they can't play, they're sick. You wake up
Speaker 1: and just like, what's going to happen today? Thankfully I
Speaker 1: haven't had any like major issues, but it's really keeping
Speaker 1: you on your toes. I mean I remember talking to
Speaker 1: an agent years ago about like how great it all was.
Speaker 1: Everything is just selling tickets and we work at amazing
Speaker 1: artists they're selling tickets. This I don't see this changing ever,
Speaker 1: went from that to uh stressful, really stressful. Did you
Speaker 1: ever question like, oh my god, maybe I didn't I
Speaker 1: got into the wrong business. I mean, I'll tell you
Speaker 1: I had extra time even though I was booking these
Speaker 1: tours over and over again. I started a small record label.
Speaker 1: I have like a label called Wilder and I named
Speaker 1: after my son that I did with Future Classic and
Speaker 1: I put out about ten records, some were single, one album,
Speaker 1: a few EPs. That's been really interesting. I'd manage an
Speaker 1: artist named Daniel Ponder, who incredible. I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people will hear her. I became a partner of
Speaker 1: School Night, which is a live music showcase in in
Speaker 1: l A. And all those things. I did them not
Speaker 1: to change to replace my day job, but to help
Speaker 1: me understand other aspects of the business a lot better
Speaker 1: to make me better at my day job. And it's
Speaker 1: been remarkable. I feel like I've learned more in the
Speaker 1: last two years. I feel like I've learned a lot.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Billie Eilish. You started working with her
Speaker 1: when she was fourteen. Tell me what you saw in
Speaker 1: her back then. The main thing is I was just
Speaker 1: so lucky that Justin Loveliner, I didn't know him. He
Speaker 1: signed her to his label and just reached out to
Speaker 1: me and said, I'm Justin. I have a record label.
Speaker 1: I found this as young woman. I think she's going
Speaker 1: to be huge. I really like what you've done with Lord,
Speaker 1: go meet her. And he sent me Ocean Eyes and
Speaker 1: I love that song like like every and you heard that.
Speaker 1: That's a great song. It was not rocket science. It
Speaker 1: wasn't like I was taking a huge gamble. Her first show,
Speaker 1: I set up a so Far Sounds in my office.
Speaker 1: She had never played, and we didn't want like all
Speaker 1: these people to go that actually wanted to go see her.
Speaker 1: We just wanted her to play in front of an
Speaker 1: audience that didn't know what they were getting, which is
Speaker 1: so Far Sounds, that's their whole thing. And she got
Speaker 1: up there and played and it was great. I think
Speaker 1: it helped her sort of break the ice and we
Speaker 1: went from there. Was it just her in Phineas. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it must have been like twenty minutes or so, twenty
Speaker 1: five minutes. She played the ukulele and they literally sat
Speaker 1: on the stools that were in our kitchen, these sort
Speaker 1: of like taller stools, uh, and played to fifty people.
Speaker 1: So did you envision like the future that she would
Speaker 1: end up having, like as a real groundbreaking artist and
Speaker 1: arena filler festival draw she's headline in coach Alla. I
Speaker 1: never really think about it in those ways. I don't
Speaker 1: know what it is about my mentality. I just get
Speaker 1: excited by the music and in the moment, I try
Speaker 1: and book the best show possible, the best show for them,
Speaker 1: the right size. Not always that doesn't always mean the
Speaker 1: biggest show. Just one that's going to be great, that
Speaker 1: they're really gonna like, and that the fans are really
Speaker 1: gonna like, because those are important and those are great
Speaker 1: for developing an artist and a lot of for a
Speaker 1: lot of different reasons. And I'm always thinking, like, what
Speaker 1: is this show going to lead to? If we sell
Speaker 1: this out, then we'll go sell that place out and
Speaker 1: set that place out. But I'm trying not to get
Speaker 1: too ahead of myself. But I mean also, I like,
Speaker 1: I knew this thing is going. This is a rocket
Speaker 1: we're holding on. And I think one of the biggest
Speaker 1: things that did was like really discourage everyone from going
Speaker 1: too big, too fast. I said, Billy needs to play
Speaker 1: in in the place that fits a thousand people. If
Speaker 1: where she plays in front of the place that fits
Speaker 1: four thousand people, even though maybe she could play there,
Speaker 1: Let's let her have that experience in front of a
Speaker 1: thousand people. It'll be a comfortable experience for her. The
Speaker 1: fans will be like so excited that they were able
Speaker 1: to get in, and people second guests that along the way,
Speaker 1: I had to get these calls like why isn't she
Speaker 1: playing here? Why isn't she playing there? Why is she
Speaker 1: headlining the main stage the second Why is she headlining
Speaker 1: the second stage? She should be on the main stage. No,
Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be great when she headlines the
Speaker 1: second stage, because where would we go if we were
Speaker 1: second or third on the main stage and should just
Speaker 1: be on the main stage every time. That second stage
Speaker 1: is pretty cool. There's been a lot of amazing moments
Speaker 1: over there, and let's have one, um, and I think
Speaker 1: that worked out. Think it's really cool. Are you talking
Speaker 1: about the specific festival where she played the second stage Coachella? Coachella, Okay,
Speaker 1: so this will be her as she headlines. This will
Speaker 1: be her first time headlining Coachella. Yeah. Yeah, And I'm
Speaker 1: not thinking, like how many other times she's going to
Speaker 1: do that? Right, I got you. I haven't thought about
Speaker 1: the next one yet, you know, I'm looking forward to
Speaker 1: this one. I was just going to say that it
Speaker 1: is amazing that she can command an audience that big.
Speaker 1: I mean, I saw her at the Greek and her
Speaker 1: some of her songs are very quiet. She's her voice
Speaker 1: is not projecting the way a belter like a pop
Speaker 1: artist would. I think that's amazing that she can. Actually
Speaker 1: I find this with few artists, but when they do
Speaker 1: it really well to be able to capture the attention
Speaker 1: of a room that big or a festival. The loudest
Speaker 1: part of her shows is not the sound system, but
Speaker 1: the audience. The screaming. Yes, I know, it's like when
Speaker 1: bad Guy, when she's sang bad Guy was like, I
Speaker 1: really could not hear her sing at that point, it
Speaker 1: was just screaming teenage girls, but such a fun experience.
Speaker 1: It is super competitive to get that slot at at
Speaker 1: Coachella though, right, Yeah, yeah, it wasn't just one phone call.
Speaker 1: It was a very long time. I told Paul to
Speaker 1: Let that he could write a book about booking coach
Speaker 1: Ella this year, but I don't think many people would
Speaker 1: read it. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just like dorks
Speaker 1: and geeks like Paul and I and people in the
Speaker 1: weeds that would be really excited about it. Why do
Speaker 1: you say that? Was it just the again, the COVID
Speaker 1: of it all and the switching it up and confirmed
Speaker 1: then they're not Scott. Yeah. And the mix of coach Hella.
Speaker 1: It has to be a mix. It used to be
Speaker 1: like you'd have that one huge retro or sort of
Speaker 1: multi generational artist, but now it's like you have to
Speaker 1: have hip hop, you have to have pop, and you
Speaker 1: have to have whatever is cool of something else. Yeah,
Speaker 1: exactly something. Yeah, it's gonna be amazing. It's gonna be amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah you're excited. Yeah, I am excited. I've got some
Speaker 1: other bands playing there too that I'm excited about. Yeah,
Speaker 1: who else do you have? I have this woman named
Speaker 1: Rena Sawa Yama. She is amazing and it is going
Speaker 1: so well for her. What's her story. She's from the UK.
Speaker 1: She's kind of a cross between imagine a Japanese version
Speaker 1: of The York and Lady Gaga. Wow, that sounds awesome,
Speaker 1: very interesting. And she's playing New York coming up. And
Speaker 1: we sold almost ten thousand tickets really fast. I love that.
Speaker 1: Like an artist that almost no one I know has
Speaker 1: heard of and then they're selling town thousand tickets. That happens. Great,
Speaker 1: that happens these days. It happens. Yeah. I mean I
Speaker 1: book a lot of those artists. Wolf Peck is one
Speaker 1: of those artists people. So this band Wolf Peck, never
Speaker 1: heard of him, you know, they just sold out Master
Speaker 1: Square Garden, who likes them, like a lot of people.
Speaker 1: And then I had this other band called Biagra Boys.
Speaker 1: They're playing Coachella. They're from Sweden. They're like a punk
Speaker 1: rock band. And I booked this this tour that they're on.
Speaker 1: I just had no idea how it was gonna do.
Speaker 1: And the whole thing sold out and we or something
Speaker 1: really fast. And like every one of those bands that
Speaker 1: got bigger in the pandemic and there's not really the
Speaker 1: data to support it. I don't really follow data very
Speaker 1: much because I still have a very hard time telling
Speaker 1: what it means. There's bands that they don't stream, what
Speaker 1: they sell a lot of tickets. There's bands it's stream,
Speaker 1: they don't sell tickets. And then there was also a
Speaker 1: two year break there where it's just someone just like
Speaker 1: threw the cards up and we're figuring out where things
Speaker 1: are at. Now, let's talk about the transition from Paradigm
Speaker 1: to Wasserman. I know it got a little chaotic there
Speaker 1: for a second. Yeah, yeah, but it all worked out hopefully.
Speaker 1: What's your view of it? Was it the right thing
Speaker 1: to do? What happened at the beginning with Paradigm, so
Speaker 1: it's nothing to do with Wasserman, Like, Paradigm let go
Speaker 1: of a lot of people from the music department, a
Speaker 1: lot of agents and staff that were formerly Windish people.
Speaker 1: So these people that I really worked a long time
Speaker 1: with and worked hard to build their foster's and we're
Speaker 1: all great agents. That was devastating. It's like having two
Speaker 1: thirds of your family kicked out or something and there
Speaker 1: was nothing I could do about it. So that sucked.
Speaker 1: It was awful. I mean I felt really bad and powerless.
Speaker 1: And then the Wasserman thing, like that was a great thing.
Speaker 1: We wanted to like join a different entity. When the
Speaker 1: Paradigm ut a thing happened, I met Casey. I had
Speaker 1: heard about him, I had heard about the grandfather, read
Speaker 1: the books about um, watched the movie. I mean, of
Speaker 1: all the old Hollywood agent manager legends, this was the top.
Speaker 1: His roster was insane. So I met his grandson, cool guy.
Speaker 1: And then when the Wassman stuff came start came up,
Speaker 1: I was like cool, and I feel very good about it.
Speaker 1: I'm excited about the resources that they have and a
Speaker 1: lot of the people I've met, and I feel like
Speaker 1: it's going really well into changing the name, almost like
Speaker 1: give you guys a fresh start, because I feel like
Speaker 1: Paradigm kind of took a beating those last few years.
Speaker 1: I feel like I was so focused on my roster
Speaker 1: and doing things that I don't know and also sort
Speaker 1: of powerless. If people said things about Paradigm, I think
Speaker 1: a lot of times I didn't even hear it, but
Speaker 1: also didn't pay much attention to it because there wasn't
Speaker 1: anything I could do about it. Like I was booking
Speaker 1: to the Eilish tours, I was booking a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of other things. No, it was it was really mainly
Speaker 1: about the leadership and the financials of the agency. I
Speaker 1: didn't really like know much about that until the pandemic.
Speaker 1: They definitely weren't walking around talking about it. It may
Speaker 1: have said spend less on your travel or something, but
Speaker 1: I mean they I don't spend a lot on travel.
Speaker 1: I fly coach most of the time. I was saying
Speaker 1: that to me. I don't take subs two shows. I've
Speaker 1: ride a city bike. You can never take the d
Speaker 1: out of tom windows. Yeah, I take subways. You practically
Speaker 1: have the word indie in your last name. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: never really thought about that. This is my takeaway from
Speaker 1: our conversation. You are a risk taker. You take on
Speaker 1: bands that you don't know if that tour is going
Speaker 1: to sell well or not. And it seems like connecting
Speaker 1: with Paradigm was also kind of a risk and I
Speaker 1: can see why when it came to layoffs that would
Speaker 1: have been really difficult for you because you decided to
Speaker 1: take that step, right. Did those employees find other places
Speaker 1: to work, Were you able to hire people back at all,
Speaker 1: or we've hired people back. I mean, the the agents,
Speaker 1: like the Formula windowsh agents that they let go have
Speaker 1: all gone and started independent agencies and and I'm sure
Speaker 1: they're all going to have the best year they've ever had,
Speaker 1: and I'm very happy for them. And every agency is
Speaker 1: going to be trying to buy them, just like they
Speaker 1: tried to buy my agency. And I think they're all
Speaker 1: going to find a lot of happiness. I think that
Speaker 1: they're really psyched, just like me, are very psyched that
Speaker 1: their shows again, you know, they can go and experience
Speaker 1: this stuff that they've been talking about for two years.
Speaker 1: So are we back? Is that it? I mean? I
Speaker 1: wish I knew. I'm afraid to say, who knows? Yeh,
Speaker 1: who the heck knows? Um? I sure hope. So when
Speaker 1: the pandemic started, everyone was like, oh, yeah, it was
Speaker 1: going to be two weeks. I remember reading, uh was
Speaker 1: it Mark Geiger, Who's who said the industry wouldn't be
Speaker 1: back until two And I was like, that's crazy. He
Speaker 1: was right, yeah, yeah, I forgot about that. All right,
Speaker 1: here's hoping for better times and a healthy live industry.
Speaker 1: It sure feels good now. I go to a show
Speaker 1: almost every night. Sometimes too. Yeah, it's feeling great. That's great, Tom,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for talking to us, and have an
Speaker 1: amazing time at Coachella. Thanks Tom. All right, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you. Tune in next week for another episode of
Speaker 1: Varieties Strictly Business.