1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: M H. Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties weekly podcast featuring 2 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: conversations with industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. 3 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: This is Shirley Halperin, executive editor of Music for Variety, 4 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: and my guest today is Tom Wendish, the head of 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: business development and a r for the town agency Wasserman Music, 6 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: where his clients include the artists Lord the XX and 7 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: Coachella headliner Billie Eilish. Like the most seasoned of booking agents, 8 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: Tom got his start while still in college Binghamton, New York, 9 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 1: to be exact. That's where he first caught the bug 10 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: for buzzing bands that were sort of left of center. 11 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: Upon graduating, he had a short lived internship at William 12 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: Marris where he would bug the agents to show him 13 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: the ropes. It's why Tom would name his own company, Bug, 14 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,279 Speaker 1: launched a little over thirty years ago as the rock 15 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: scene was exploding. In fact, the word indie is practically 16 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: baked into Tom's last name, which makes his career track 17 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 1: seemed practically predestined. Circumstances led him to Chicago, where he 18 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: would build a formidable roster of bands most people had 19 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: never heard of, and he would scale up to include 20 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: dozens more. That led to gaining the attention of the 21 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: budding Midwest booking agency Billions, which took Tom under its 22 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: wing from to two thousand four. For the next thirteen years, 23 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: Tom called the Windish Agency home. He operated a lean 24 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: and mean machine that looked after hundreds of artists, but 25 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: it was his own skills as a talent scout and 26 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: being in the right place at the right time that 27 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: resulted in identifying the singular talent that is Billie Eilish. 28 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: As Billy and other clients got more popular competing agencies, 29 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: he says, we're all trying to steal them. The solution, 30 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: as Tom Windish saw it, was to align with bigger entity. 31 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: He chose Paradigm in seventeen as it was absorbing several 32 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: small to mid size indies like his own. Among them 33 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: the firm's Little Big Man, a m Only Coda and 34 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 1: X Ray Touring, which brought to the roster such touring 35 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: giants as Ed Sharon Coplay, David Getta and Fish, among 36 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: many many more. Not long after arriving at Paradigm, Tom 37 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: Windish marveled at the health of his industry. Little did 38 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: he know what was coming in the form of COVID. 39 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: The pandemic not only disrupted touring in its physical form, 40 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: it turned the business of live music upside down. All 41 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: agencies were impacted, but Paradigm in particular lost its financial 42 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: footing and began exploring a merger or a sale. The 43 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: buyer would turn out to be Ksey Wasserman, grandson of 44 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: Lou Wasserman, who was among Hollywood's founding fathers, working for 45 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: over eight decades to completely reshape entertainment. The deal for 46 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: Paradigm closed in March, and the agency was re christened 47 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: Wasserman Music. Not surprisingly, Tom was well read on the 48 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,959 Speaker 1: Wasserman dynasty, and it's proven to be an asset as 49 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: he and his new boss navigate the post COVID landscape, 50 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: passing on that guidance to his artists. As Tom Winters 51 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 1: prepares to fly from his home base of New York 52 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,959 Speaker 1: to India, California for Coachella, where he has multiple acts 53 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: on the bill, he cautiously exhales while recounting the routing 54 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: and supply chain problems COVID has wrought. How Billie Eilish's 55 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: live career progressed memphodically despite second guessing by his peers 56 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: and what he's learned from decades spent directing artists on 57 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: the road. We pick up Tom Story in Chicago in 58 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: the early nineties. Welcome back to Strictly Business. Here's Tom 59 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: win Dish. So, Tom win Dish, thanks so much for 60 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: being on Strictly Business. Welcome, nice to be here. Thanks 61 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: for inviting me. M the indie rock music scene in 62 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 1: Chicago at that time, this is like ninety something was great, 63 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 1: Touch and Go Records, Thrilled Jockey, Drag City, Tupelo. Yeah, 64 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 1: so I ended up like meeting tons of people. Everyone 65 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: was super nice, very supportive of each other. Everyone was 66 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: saying you should move here. I think maybe I was 67 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: living with my parents at the time because I was broke. 68 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: I was spending all the money I made on the 69 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: booking on the phone bill, like literally, and he said, 70 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: you can live up above the club. He lived above 71 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 1: the club too. You can live in this other one 72 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: bedroom or something or studio for a hundred fifty bucks 73 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: a month. So I then went over to Lounge Jackson 74 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: met the people on that place, Sue Miller, and that 75 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: was from Julia and those two clubs were they hated 76 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: each other. Arrivals they were trying to book the same bands. 77 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: They get really upset with you if you booked your 78 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: band at the other club. And they took me out 79 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: to dinner. I said, I'm thinking about moving here. Oh really, yeah, 80 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: I think I might live above the empty bottle. He 81 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 1: said I could live there for a hundred fifty dollars 82 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: and they were like that, you can live above our 83 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: club for hundred bucks a months utiles included. And I 84 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 1: drove out in January three weeks later, like my car 85 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: full of stuff basically like a file cabinet and dot 86 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: matrix printer and an old McIntosh ch s e this 87 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: big cube computer thing. And and I lived about I mean, 88 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: this was not really an apartment. It was like, I 89 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 1: don't know what you described it as a room at 90 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: four walls. My kitchen was in a bathroom. The rent 91 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: was great, and I lived above this club. And and 92 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,119 Speaker 1: I never thought twice about like this is a dump. 93 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: This is awful. I was in heaven. You must have 94 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: seen so many amazing shows I did. And the talk 95 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: about Uncle Tupelo. This is when Jeff Tweedy was playing 96 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: their solo all the time and was dating or engaged 97 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: to Sue Miller. They ended up getting married at the 98 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: club when I lived there. It was like the one 99 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: time that I had to like go away for a 100 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: while because they like used my room as like dressing. Yeah. Yeah, 101 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: But I went to the wedding and everything. It was fantastic. 102 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 1: And then you know, like probably six months after I 103 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: got to Chicago, Batch from Billions called me up and 104 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: asked if I'd be interested in joining Billions. Tell me 105 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: about him because the listeners of this podcast are definitely 106 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: not familiar with these characters, So describe him. Okay, Well, 107 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: he booked Pavement and John Spencer, Blues Explosion and loads 108 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: of bands on Touch and Go and was a legend. 109 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: And I mean he just had one of the best 110 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 1: independent booking agencies in the country and was on the 111 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,039 Speaker 1: up and up. Jesus A Zero it was another band 112 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: and they were all like doing really well. I had 113 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 1: so much respect for him. I was afraid of him, 114 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 1: so I kind of worshiped this guy. Maybe we worked 115 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: out I deally. I went and worked there and it 116 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: was great. Learned a lot. So when did you form 117 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: your own agency? Um? I think I was at Billions 118 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: six or seven years something like that. Maybe a little 119 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: more and I had a little roster of thirty or 120 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: so artists. Remember I put it up. There was like 121 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: one page on the website. Yeah, I have like a 122 00:07:32,280 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: link to that somewhere or something. It's pretty funny. I 123 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: think there's like a spelling error on it. One of 124 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: the bands was spelled from for a minute. Yeah, it 125 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 1: was a long time ago. I my office was the 126 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: second bedroom of my condo and I had an employee. 127 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: That was the main thing, Like, the main reason I 128 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: wanted to start my own thing was I didn't have 129 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: an assistant, and I was booking a lot of bands 130 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 1: and doing a lot of the contracts and stuff myself, 131 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: and I thought if I have an assistant, I could 132 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: book more shows. I was there for like eight for 133 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: ten years quite a while. It was great. I'm really 134 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: glad that I started things there and not New York 135 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: in l A. Why do you say that I didn't 136 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: really have like a handle at all on what was 137 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: going on in New York in l A with you know, 138 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: this hot band and that hot band. But I'm happy 139 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: that I wasn't comparing myself to others and losing out 140 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: on things to others. We really carved our own Lane. 141 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: I would say probably other people in the business probably 142 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: hadn't even heard of a lot of the stuff that 143 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: we were signing. God Speed You, Black Emperor Low. We 144 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: signed Diplo early on. I was doing a lot of 145 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: electronic stuff to a lot of people on Warp records 146 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 1: like Apex Twin really never played, but Square Pusher, aw 147 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,839 Speaker 1: Teckers group, Cold Cut, who started a label called Ninja Tune, 148 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: Kid Koala, and on Tobin, Saint Germain or Sanchoman. So 149 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: like electronic live, which hardly anyone was booking that before 150 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: other than Jerry Girard and his was more mainstream live 151 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: electronic stuff in DJ's and ours was like quite underground. 152 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: They would sell some of them would sell a hundred tickets, 153 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 1: two hundred tickets, not not very big. And then when 154 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: streaming happened, it was like someone turned a floodlight onto 155 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: these things. Like before a lot of these records you 156 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: just couldn't find. There might be one store or two 157 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: stores in New York and l A and a few 158 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: other spots, and you'd go there and order it and 159 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: it would show up like a month or six weeks later. 160 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: So all of a sudden, streaming and I guess illegal downloading. 161 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: Even I noticed more tickets being sold. Interesting, I mean 162 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: discovery is that that is the challenge of the people 163 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: who make music, who sell music. So one thing about 164 00:09:54,360 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: the Windows Agency that I remember, even before you joined Paradigm, 165 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: is that you had a lot of acts. Is like 166 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: you scaled up even as an indie. What was the 167 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: thinking behind that and what do you look for in 168 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: an artist? I mean fundamentally, like I'm looking I'm listening 169 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: for music that gives me butterflies or goose bumps, or 170 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 1: that I just really enjoy that. I like things that 171 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: are a little bit different than anything I've ever heard before, 172 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: whatever element, the way the voice sounds, the way the 173 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: drum sound, the style, and if I hear something that 174 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: I like, especially back then, like you'd hear things you 175 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: like and there was like an audience. You didn't really 176 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: know how big it was, but you could book it 177 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: and put up a few shows, see how it did, 178 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 1: and then if it went well, like then you do 179 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: some more. I remember signing in this band Jagga jazzi 180 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 1: Ist or Yaga Yazzis. They were on Ninja Tune. It 181 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: was like an eight piece in Norwegian electronic jazz band. 182 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: I had never heard anything like it. They were incredible. 183 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: I had no idea how it was going to go. 184 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: And we did like three to five tickets to night 185 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: on the first tour in like eight or ten cities, 186 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: and the shows were incredible, and everyone said that was amazing. Um, 187 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: that was a success for us to you know, selling 188 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: that number of tickets was really good. I would sign 189 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: bands or artists that I had never seen before, and 190 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: I remember back then other agents really looking down on that. 191 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: I would never sign a band I haven't seen, and 192 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: I did that because I didn't have the financial means 193 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: to go sign these bands. It didn't make sense for 194 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: me to fly to Norway first to see Jagga jazz 195 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: Is to make sure they were good. Because when they 196 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: toured and they did sell eight cities and three to 197 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: five tickets, that meant we made like four thousand bucks 198 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 1: or something, you know, or three thousand bucks. You know, 199 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: if I had flown there and stayed in a hotel, 200 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: that would have been half the money. It almost always 201 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 1: worked out. There's very few times I can remember where 202 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: the band wasn't good, and then you flash forward to today, 203 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: Like Billy had never played a show when I signed her. 204 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 1: Lord had never played a show when I signed her, 205 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: so and I was fine with it. I just thought, 206 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: they make great music, they'll figure it out. I'll do 207 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: whatever I need to help, but they'll figure it out. 208 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: And if they don't, then we won't do many more shows. 209 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: But they did, I'll figure it out. That's so interesting 210 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: because it's like, that's not how it used to be. 211 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: It was like you had to pay your dues, you 212 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: had to start at the clubs and make your way up. 213 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: And today it's like you can have a giant hit, 214 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: your first record out be playing arenas in no time 215 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: with zero touring experience. I think streaming had a lot 216 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: to do with everything changing, at least for the kind 217 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: of people I worked with, because I mean I saw 218 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: I remember with Hot Chip we did one tour, it 219 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: went well. Streaming kind of took off that. Back then, 220 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: it was like Pirate Bay or whatever it was. You 221 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: could practically google things and find places to like download 222 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: this stuff, and everybody like certain people are just doing 223 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: They had computers running twenty four hours a day just 224 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: downloading stuff. It was like it was like getting the 225 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 1: keys to fdo Schwartz or something. You have whatever you want. 226 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: But then the next tour they did like there were 227 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: a lot more people there. I'd say, like the chunk 228 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: of their fans were doing that stuff right, probably because 229 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: they couldn't afford to buy the music. That was the 230 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: whole thing. Afford and it's like hard to get your 231 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:32,079 Speaker 1: hands on it, hard hard to find, of course. Okay, 232 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 1: so tell me about when disjoined Paradigms in something like that. 233 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: What was the thinking behind that. At the time, you 234 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: had a staff of more than eighty in six cities 235 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: and over a thousand clients. Clearly things were working. So 236 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: what did Paradigm offer? I guess what I felt was 237 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 1: that the more successful we became, and the more successful 238 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: our artists became m and at the time that meant 239 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: Lord the x ax diplo Odessa Flu, the more intense 240 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: the competition became. It was great when we were under 241 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: the radar and no one had heard of the bands 242 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: in terms of the competition and the stress. And but 243 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: like then, these artists got more popular and the agencies 244 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: were all trying to steal them, and they would say no, 245 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: but then the agency would go back again a month 246 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: or two or three later, and that went on for years, 247 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: so that it felt like towards the end like these 248 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:39,360 Speaker 1: people were offering their relative enough they would change I'll 249 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: give you my my my house or something, and I 250 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: was like, jeez, what else is going to happen? And 251 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: I was always thinking what this started almost day one 252 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 1: when I started Windance Agency. What can we do to 253 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: provide a better service to the artist. I know it 254 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: sounds like everyone does that, but I was the first 255 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 1: agency to start password protected webs site where you could 256 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: see how much you were being paid and if we 257 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 1: had the deposit and the signed contract and all those things. 258 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 1: Very sounds incredibly simple. Now. We had a tour marketing department. 259 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: I think before anybody, we had a branding department. These 260 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: were all things like I was either thinking, what's gonna 261 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: be helpful for the artists, what are they gonna appreciate, 262 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: what's gonna help sell more tickets? Or what is everybody 263 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: else saying they do? And we need to compete with that? 264 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: We need to like have an answer. We had people 265 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: that would like help with acting or would meet with 266 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: our artists and basically asked like, what are your dreams 267 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: outside of music and then go and try and implement 268 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: them and they did very interesting things, and we did 269 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: that for years. I basically got to a point where 270 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: I thought it's never gonna be enough. I could have 271 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: twenty people doing these things instead of six and still 272 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 1: wouldn't be enough because it's all about perception, not reality. 273 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: So I need to join one. And the perception is 274 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: like bigger, bigger, better, we'll get more from the artist. 275 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: So I did it. You know, I went with ones 276 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: that were nice people, and they had all been indies too. 277 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: They were really cut from the same cloth. Paradigms or 278 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: Party Diamonds Company, Little big Man Am Only Monterey, Dakota 279 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: may have come after, I can't remember. And when I 280 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: would speak with these people, the former owners of these agencies, 281 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: they sort of had the same experience as me in 282 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: different ways. They all started these things like in the 283 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: second bedroom or in a little garage or whatever, and 284 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: it group And I don't know, there's something about that 285 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: DNA that makes you feel comfortable, right, Were you being 286 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: courted by the other agencies? Yeah? What was that like? 287 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: I mean, it's nice to be wanted. Did you feel 288 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: like the way that they sort of sell the artists. 289 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: I'm like, we'll do this for you and this will happen. 290 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: We have these whatever tools. I mean, it's interesting because 291 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: back then, like I didn't really know they say that, Yeah, 292 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: they say they have all these things, they say they 293 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 1: do all these things. I wasn't really sure like which 294 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: one is telling the truth or which one is the 295 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: most true? Right, Well, so that's really going to do it. 296 00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:16,880 Speaker 1: This is what the artists go through, right when CIA 297 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: and W M E and U t A are all yeah, 298 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: and when they have to choose a label. Yeah, that's true, 299 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: you know, um, and I guess ultimately it kind of 300 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: comes down to your gut again where you feel most comfortable, 301 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: which was obviously paradigm for you. Yeah. Yeah, let's talk 302 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: a little bit about festivals, because we're coming out of 303 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 1: this very dark couple of years which really upended the 304 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: touring industry. But we're days away from Coachella at this point. 305 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: Lollapalooza went off without a hitch. What's your view of 306 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: the return of festivals, Amid Covid. I mean, I went 307 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: to the Lalla Closa. I figured it was great. I 308 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: went to us the city limits. It felt like every 309 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: other obsously limits. I went to it was great. They 310 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: waited in lines for food. I saw a ton of bands. 311 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: It was really good. How do I feel about it? 312 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm really happy it's back. What was the 313 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: pandemic like for you? As a booking person? It was 314 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: brutal and horrible in a lot of ways. You like 315 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: to see everything you've built and what you do. I 316 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: would say booking and live shows, that's the thing that 317 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: that makes me tick, that's the thing that excites me. 318 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: And to not have that sort of it swept out 319 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: from under you and and sometimes thinking like this is 320 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: ever going to come back, just not really knowing it 321 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 1: really sucks. Yeah, and probably something you've never experienced. Hell no, 322 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: of course not. Yeah. It was I mean sometimes very awful, 323 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,360 Speaker 1: very stressful. And then also it's a responsibility to guide 324 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: artists make them feel like it's going to be okay. 325 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,479 Speaker 1: It was really brutal a lot of ways. There were 326 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 1: a lot of silver linings, but definitely being able to 327 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: spend lots of extra time with my son when he 328 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,199 Speaker 1: was one and two years old, it was amazing and 329 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: I feel just so grateful that I got to do 330 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: that because normally I would travel every week or two 331 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 1: and go out to a show every other night and 332 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: that's what I do. Now you're back. I'm back. Yeah. 333 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: I was talking to someone today. It was asking me, like, 334 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 1: do you think that, like we'll do less small trips 335 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: and not go to as many shows. I said, I'd 336 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 1: like to think that would be the case. But I'm 337 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: going to shows every night now and I'm on a 338 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: plane every week for the next eight weeks. I feel 339 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: like it will go back to that, at least for 340 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: a while. I mean, yeah, maybe I'll say no to 341 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: some things, but there's an awful lot going on, and 342 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:51,719 Speaker 1: I'm also happy and grateful that it's going on. We 343 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: need to take a quick break, but we'll be back 344 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 1: with more from Tom Wendish, and we're back with Wasserman 345 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: Muse six Tom Wendish. I mean, Billie Eilish's tour was 346 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 1: one of those tours that that was impacted. It seemed 347 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 1: like she was able to pivot, do a lot of 348 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: other projects, be available for awards shows and things like that. 349 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: But what were those conversations like about having the postpone 350 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 1: a tour for a year or maybe two years. Who knows, 351 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 1: she might have a new album by then. You could 352 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: be a completely different cycle. They were repetitive because we 353 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: did it several times. Yeah, and it wasn't just with hers, 354 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: with everybody. You'd get to the point where you're moving 355 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: moving the thing for like the third or fourth time, 356 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: and it feels like you're beating a dead horse or something, 357 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,119 Speaker 1: and it's I mean, it's not great. I've had this 358 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 1: feeling the other night. I've been feeling really happy to 359 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: be out at shows. There have been moments where I've 360 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 1: been overwhelmed with emotion or goose bumps or tears. I mean, 361 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: it's actually like quite a beautiful thing to be even 362 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how big the artist is, whether they're 363 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: playing the twenty people or a hundred, to be there 364 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 1: and just to be so happy that like this amazing 365 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: musical moments happening, you're in a room with all these people, 366 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: you realize, like this is why I do it, and 367 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: this thing that the reason I do it, being in 368 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: the room and experiencing these things and helping to bring 369 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: this joy to these fans and musicians. Like not having 370 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: that and doing it for two years, like it was dark, 371 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,920 Speaker 1: Like it kind of sucks talking about shows that are 372 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 1: sort of fictional might happen. And I'm really glad that 373 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 1: the things I'm talking about now are really happening. It's 374 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: the same for the artists and for the fans and 375 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: for the promoters. It's amazing. Like sometimes I go backstage 376 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: after the show and we're hugging each other and we're 377 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: all like so happy that they have that feeling too, 378 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: and when they're on stage they get it. It's not 379 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: just me. It comes to like rescheduling a tour, like 380 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: there are many challenges that pop up with that, the 381 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: availability of venues and what kind of things were you 382 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: up against when you were moving a major tour two three, 383 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: four times, other people that want the buildings to and 384 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,360 Speaker 1: as you push things back further and further into the future, 385 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: you just run into more and more people that are planning. 386 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: Everyone's planning a tour, and it feels like you're kind 387 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: of squishing into a time when just everybody wants the 388 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 1: same real estate and it's hard to get. And yeah, 389 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: I mean we were talking about it before. How when 390 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: I first started doing this, artist booked themselves so they 391 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: kind of understood the routing process and stuff. But most 392 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 1: are almost all artists these days, have not done that 393 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 1: at least like at the level that I'm dealing with. 394 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 1: I was talking too artists the other day. It was 395 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,360 Speaker 1: like they couldn't understand why they had to drive from 396 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: Washington to Boston and it was like nine and a 397 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,959 Speaker 1: half hours or something, and it's like, I know, that 398 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,240 Speaker 1: sucks it as of bales, And normally, I'm sort of 399 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,720 Speaker 1: known for booking things very far in advance, and part 400 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 1: of the reason for that is to just get perfect rating. 401 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: But that's not really possible these days. I mean, I'm 402 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: booking shows for next spring, and so is everybody else basically, 403 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,400 Speaker 1: and summer and fall, and even the tours that like, 404 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: let's say got going like the end of one, they 405 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 1: had to deal with like different state laws about COVID, 406 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: so the routing really could be funky where it's like, oh, 407 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: we can't play that venue because they don't require masks 408 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: or whatever. I mean, were you running up against that too. 409 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 1: I didn't run into that so much. It was mostly 410 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: what's going to be happening with COVID next week? And 411 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 1: I just felt like every day I still sort of 412 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: feel this way, but definitely like last fall when I 413 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: had a lot of people on tour again, every day 414 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: you wake up and wondering, like, what's going to happen today. 415 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: Is it gonna be okay or not? I will say 416 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 1: like this year, there's been a very high number of 417 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: just odd things that have happened that lead to cancelations, 418 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: like one of them, and they're all like sort of 419 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: active god type things. One of my bands, one of 420 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: my clients they had there, the trailer was stolen, all 421 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: the equipment, so they can't play the show that day. 422 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: Some of the supply chain related. Also, something breaks in 423 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: your van, they can't get the part. That's happening with 424 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: busses a lot. You know, last night the sound was 425 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 1: all messed up, but at a really good club, and 426 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 1: I was asking the club, the owner or whatever, what's 427 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: the deal. We've had four different sound people in the 428 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: last four weeks, and this is like a premier venue, 429 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: really good club. Well, they can't find a sound person 430 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: that is like a very good sound person. A lot 431 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: of sound people when it got another job. So that's 432 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: also a supply chain issue. That's the supply chain issue. 433 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: And then they also had issues with the equipment and 434 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,479 Speaker 1: they can't get it fixed because the parts have and arrived. 435 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: And then people are getting COVID left and right. Still 436 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: they're sick, they can't play, they're sick. You wake up 437 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: and just like, what's going to happen today? Thankfully I 438 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: haven't had any like major issues, but it's really keeping 439 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 1: you on your toes. I mean I remember talking to 440 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: an agent years ago about like how great it all was. 441 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 1: Everything is just selling tickets and we work at amazing 442 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: artists they're selling tickets. This I don't see this changing ever, 443 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:33,479 Speaker 1: went from that to uh stressful, really stressful. Did you 444 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: ever question like, oh my god, maybe I didn't I 445 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: got into the wrong business. I mean, I'll tell you 446 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: I had extra time even though I was booking these 447 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: tours over and over again. I started a small record label. 448 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: I have like a label called Wilder and I named 449 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 1: after my son that I did with Future Classic and 450 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 1: I put out about ten records, some were single, one album, 451 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: a few EPs. That's been really interesting. I'd manage an 452 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: artist named Daniel Ponder, who incredible. I think a lot 453 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 1: of people will hear her. I became a partner of 454 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: School Night, which is a live music showcase in in 455 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: l A. And all those things. I did them not 456 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: to change to replace my day job, but to help 457 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 1: me understand other aspects of the business a lot better 458 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 1: to make me better at my day job. And it's 459 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: been remarkable. I feel like I've learned more in the 460 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 1: last two years. I feel like I've learned a lot. 461 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: Let's talk about Billie Eilish. You started working with her 462 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 1: when she was fourteen. Tell me what you saw in 463 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 1: her back then. The main thing is I was just 464 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: so lucky that Justin Loveliner, I didn't know him. He 465 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: signed her to his label and just reached out to 466 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: me and said, I'm Justin. I have a record label. 467 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: I found this as young woman. I think she's going 468 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: to be huge. I really like what you've done with Lord, 469 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: go meet her. And he sent me Ocean Eyes and 470 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: I love that song like like every and you heard that. 471 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: That's a great song. It was not rocket science. It 472 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: wasn't like I was taking a huge gamble. Her first show, 473 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 1: I set up a so Far Sounds in my office. 474 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 1: She had never played, and we didn't want like all 475 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: these people to go that actually wanted to go see her. 476 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,439 Speaker 1: We just wanted her to play in front of an 477 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,719 Speaker 1: audience that didn't know what they were getting, which is 478 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: so Far Sounds, that's their whole thing. And she got 479 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: up there and played and it was great. I think 480 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: it helped her sort of break the ice and we 481 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: went from there. Was it just her in Phineas. Yeah, 482 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: it must have been like twenty minutes or so, twenty 483 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: five minutes. She played the ukulele and they literally sat 484 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: on the stools that were in our kitchen, these sort 485 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: of like taller stools, uh, and played to fifty people. 486 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: So did you envision like the future that she would 487 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: end up having, like as a real groundbreaking artist and 488 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:01,639 Speaker 1: arena filler festival draw she's headline in coach Alla. I 489 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: never really think about it in those ways. I don't 490 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: know what it is about my mentality. I just get 491 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: excited by the music and in the moment, I try 492 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: and book the best show possible, the best show for them, 493 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: the right size. Not always that doesn't always mean the 494 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 1: biggest show. Just one that's going to be great, that 495 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,120 Speaker 1: they're really gonna like, and that the fans are really 496 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 1: gonna like, because those are important and those are great 497 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: for developing an artist and a lot of for a 498 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: lot of different reasons. And I'm always thinking, like, what 499 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: is this show going to lead to? If we sell 500 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 1: this out, then we'll go sell that place out and 501 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,360 Speaker 1: set that place out. But I'm trying not to get 502 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 1: too ahead of myself. But I mean also, I like, 503 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: I knew this thing is going. This is a rocket 504 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: we're holding on. And I think one of the biggest 505 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: things that did was like really discourage everyone from going 506 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: too big, too fast. I said, Billy needs to play 507 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: in in the place that fits a thousand people. If 508 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 1: where she plays in front of the place that fits 509 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: four thousand people, even though maybe she could play there, 510 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: Let's let her have that experience in front of a 511 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: thousand people. It'll be a comfortable experience for her. The 512 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: fans will be like so excited that they were able 513 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: to get in, and people second guests that along the way, 514 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: I had to get these calls like why isn't she 515 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,239 Speaker 1: playing here? Why isn't she playing there? Why is she 516 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 1: headlining the main stage the second Why is she headlining 517 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: the second stage? She should be on the main stage. No, 518 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be great when she headlines the 519 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: second stage, because where would we go if we were 520 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: second or third on the main stage and should just 521 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: be on the main stage every time. That second stage 522 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: is pretty cool. There's been a lot of amazing moments 523 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: over there, and let's have one, um, and I think 524 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: that worked out. Think it's really cool. Are you talking 525 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 1: about the specific festival where she played the second stage Coachella? Coachella, Okay, 526 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: so this will be her as she headlines. This will 527 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: be her first time headlining Coachella. Yeah. Yeah, And I'm 528 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 1: not thinking, like how many other times she's going to 529 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 1: do that? Right, I got you. I haven't thought about 530 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: the next one yet, you know, I'm looking forward to 531 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: this one. I was just going to say that it 532 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: is amazing that she can command an audience that big. 533 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I saw her at the Greek and her 534 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: some of her songs are very quiet. She's her voice 535 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: is not projecting the way a belter like a pop 536 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: artist would. I think that's amazing that she can. Actually 537 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: I find this with few artists, but when they do 538 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: it really well to be able to capture the attention 539 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: of a room that big or a festival. The loudest 540 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: part of her shows is not the sound system, but 541 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: the audience. The screaming. Yes, I know, it's like when 542 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,239 Speaker 1: bad Guy, when she's sang bad Guy was like, I 543 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: really could not hear her sing at that point, it 544 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: was just screaming teenage girls, but such a fun experience. 545 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: It is super competitive to get that slot at at 546 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: Coachella though, right, Yeah, yeah, it wasn't just one phone call. 547 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: It was a very long time. I told Paul to 548 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: Let that he could write a book about booking coach 549 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: Ella this year, but I don't think many people would 550 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,719 Speaker 1: read it. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just like dorks 551 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,479 Speaker 1: and geeks like Paul and I and people in the 552 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: weeds that would be really excited about it. Why do 553 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: you say that? Was it just the again, the COVID 554 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: of it all and the switching it up and confirmed 555 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: then they're not Scott. Yeah. And the mix of coach Hella. 556 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: It has to be a mix. It used to be 557 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: like you'd have that one huge retro or sort of 558 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: multi generational artist, but now it's like you have to 559 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,560 Speaker 1: have hip hop, you have to have pop, and you 560 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: have to have whatever is cool of something else. Yeah, 561 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 1: exactly something. Yeah, it's gonna be amazing. It's gonna be amazing. 562 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: Yeah you're excited. Yeah, I am excited. I've got some 563 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: other bands playing there too that I'm excited about. Yeah, 564 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: who else do you have? I have this woman named 565 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: Rena Sawa Yama. She is amazing and it is going 566 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: so well for her. What's her story. She's from the UK. 567 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: She's kind of a cross between imagine a Japanese version 568 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 1: of The York and Lady Gaga. Wow, that sounds awesome, 569 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: very interesting. And she's playing New York coming up. And 570 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: we sold almost ten thousand tickets really fast. I love that. 571 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: Like an artist that almost no one I know has 572 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: heard of and then they're selling town thousand tickets. That happens. Great, 573 00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: that happens these days. It happens. Yeah. I mean I 574 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: book a lot of those artists. Wolf Peck is one 575 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: of those artists people. So this band Wolf Peck, never 576 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: heard of him, you know, they just sold out Master 577 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: Square Garden, who likes them, like a lot of people. 578 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: And then I had this other band called Biagra Boys. 579 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: They're playing Coachella. They're from Sweden. They're like a punk 580 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: rock band. And I booked this this tour that they're on. 581 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: I just had no idea how it was gonna do. 582 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: And the whole thing sold out and we or something 583 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: really fast. And like every one of those bands that 584 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,240 Speaker 1: got bigger in the pandemic and there's not really the 585 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: data to support it. I don't really follow data very 586 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: much because I still have a very hard time telling 587 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: what it means. There's bands that they don't stream, what 588 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: they sell a lot of tickets. There's bands it's stream, 589 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 1: they don't sell tickets. And then there was also a 590 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: two year break there where it's just someone just like 591 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 1: threw the cards up and we're figuring out where things 592 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: are at. Now, let's talk about the transition from Paradigm 593 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 1: to Wasserman. I know it got a little chaotic there 594 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: for a second. Yeah, yeah, but it all worked out hopefully. 595 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: What's your view of it? Was it the right thing 596 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: to do? What happened at the beginning with Paradigm, so 597 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: it's nothing to do with Wasserman, Like, Paradigm let go 598 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: of a lot of people from the music department, a 599 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: lot of agents and staff that were formerly Windish people. 600 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: So these people that I really worked a long time 601 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,040 Speaker 1: with and worked hard to build their foster's and we're 602 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: all great agents. That was devastating. It's like having two 603 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: thirds of your family kicked out or something and there 604 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: was nothing I could do about it. So that sucked. 605 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: It was awful. I mean I felt really bad and powerless. 606 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: And then the Wasserman thing, like that was a great thing. 607 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,360 Speaker 1: We wanted to like join a different entity. When the 608 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: Paradigm ut a thing happened, I met Casey. I had 609 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: heard about him, I had heard about the grandfather, read 610 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: the books about um, watched the movie. I mean, of 611 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:35,720 Speaker 1: all the old Hollywood agent manager legends, this was the top. 612 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: His roster was insane. So I met his grandson, cool guy. 613 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 1: And then when the Wassman stuff came start came up, 614 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 1: I was like cool, and I feel very good about it. 615 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: I'm excited about the resources that they have and a 616 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: lot of the people I've met, and I feel like 617 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: it's going really well into changing the name, almost like 618 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,319 Speaker 1: give you guys a fresh start, because I feel like 619 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 1: Paradigm kind of took a beating those last few years. 620 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:08,280 Speaker 1: I feel like I was so focused on my roster 621 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 1: and doing things that I don't know and also sort 622 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:15,879 Speaker 1: of powerless. If people said things about Paradigm, I think 623 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: a lot of times I didn't even hear it, but 624 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: also didn't pay much attention to it because there wasn't 625 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: anything I could do about it. Like I was booking 626 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: to the Eilish tours, I was booking a whole bunch 627 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: of other things. No, it was it was really mainly 628 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: about the leadership and the financials of the agency. I 629 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 1: didn't really like know much about that until the pandemic. 630 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: They definitely weren't walking around talking about it. It may 631 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: have said spend less on your travel or something, but 632 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: I mean they I don't spend a lot on travel. 633 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: I fly coach most of the time. I was saying 634 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 1: that to me. I don't take subs two shows. I've 635 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: ride a city bike. You can never take the d 636 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 1: out of tom windows. Yeah, I take subways. You practically 637 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: have the word indie in your last name. Yeah, I 638 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,719 Speaker 1: never really thought about that. This is my takeaway from 639 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: our conversation. You are a risk taker. You take on 640 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: bands that you don't know if that tour is going 641 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: to sell well or not. And it seems like connecting 642 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,800 Speaker 1: with Paradigm was also kind of a risk and I 643 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: can see why when it came to layoffs that would 644 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: have been really difficult for you because you decided to 645 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: take that step, right. Did those employees find other places 646 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: to work, Were you able to hire people back at all, 647 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: or we've hired people back. I mean, the the agents, 648 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: like the Formula windowsh agents that they let go have 649 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 1: all gone and started independent agencies and and I'm sure 650 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: they're all going to have the best year they've ever had, 651 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,400 Speaker 1: and I'm very happy for them. And every agency is 652 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,239 Speaker 1: going to be trying to buy them, just like they 653 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: tried to buy my agency. And I think they're all 654 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: going to find a lot of happiness. I think that 655 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:08,120 Speaker 1: they're really psyched, just like me, are very psyched that 656 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: their shows again, you know, they can go and experience 657 00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: this stuff that they've been talking about for two years. 658 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: So are we back? Is that it? I mean? I 659 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: wish I knew. I'm afraid to say, who knows? Yeh, 660 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: who the heck knows? Um? I sure hope. So when 661 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: the pandemic started, everyone was like, oh, yeah, it was 662 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: going to be two weeks. I remember reading, uh was 663 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: it Mark Geiger, Who's who said the industry wouldn't be 664 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: back until two And I was like, that's crazy. He 665 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 1: was right, yeah, yeah, I forgot about that. All right, 666 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,240 Speaker 1: here's hoping for better times and a healthy live industry. 667 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: It sure feels good now. I go to a show 668 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: almost every night. Sometimes too. Yeah, it's feeling great. That's great, Tom, 669 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: thanks so much for talking to us, and have an 670 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: amazing time at Coachella. Thanks Tom. All right, thank you, 671 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: thank you. Tune in next week for another episode of 672 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 1: Varieties Strictly Business.