1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 2: I'm Tracy B. 4 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: Wilson and I'm Holly Frye. 5 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:21,639 Speaker 2: We talked this week about Stevan, and by extension, also 6 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: talked about some very unsuccessful Spanish efforts to explore and 7 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 2: colonize what's now Laurada and the whole coast from there 8 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 2: into Mexico did not work out for them. I've had 9 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 2: him on my list for a really long time with 10 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 2: a question mark after it, just because I was not 11 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 2: sure if it was ever going to happen, and then 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 2: when I was looking specifically for something related to Morocco, 13 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 2: that is where. 14 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: I wound up. 15 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 2: He's got some similarities to Cede Barik Bombay, who he 16 00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: talked about a couple or three months ago, not exactly 17 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 2: the same situation, but in both cases, like European folks, 18 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 2: really depending on their skill and knowledge to be able 19 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 2: to survive in an environment that they were not used to. 20 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 2: There are some sources that describe as Stevon as the 21 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 2: first African American, which I get wanting to say that, 22 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 2: but that is not an idea that existed in any 23 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 2: way in the sixteenth century when he was saying so, 24 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 2: one of the things that's interesting to me is how 25 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 2: this fits in with the progression of how people thought, 26 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 2: how specifically European people thought about race, because there wasn't 27 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 2: really an idea of white at that time. There was 28 00:01:55,640 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 2: an idea of black, encompassing most people who were African 29 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 2: and in some contexts other people not generally from Europe. 30 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: But the. 31 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 2: Folks that might be grouped together today as white were 32 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 2: more described as Christian right, and when what would become 33 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 2: sort of the European powers colonizing the Americas were getting 34 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 2: started in the idea of like not just having slaves, 35 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 2: but like building a society that was rooted in slavery. Initially, 36 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 2: it had been thought of as acceptable to enslave people 37 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: who were not Christian, so it would, you know, within 38 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: the European Christian context, it would be acceptable to enslave Muslims, 39 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 2: or enslave African people of an indigenous African religion, or 40 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 2: to enslave indigenous American people who were not Christian. But 41 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 2: then there were also missionary and evangelical efforts to convert 42 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 2: people to Christianity. So it's like you convert your enslave 43 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,399 Speaker 2: population to Christianity, now what. And it was through that 44 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 2: shift that categories began to be created. Just the separating 45 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 2: black and white. These are both socially constructed things. They 46 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 2: do not have any basis in biology, right, or anything 47 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 2: like that. Their basis is in generational son. 48 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: Expoture, right, Like I always when I boil it down 49 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: to that, it's so absurd, yeah, that it's hard not 50 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: to laugh. But I also then feel guilty for laughing, 51 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: because what a mess we have made because of it, 52 00:03:58,960 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: so much of a mess. 53 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 2: I don't remember the person's name, but there is one 54 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 2: particular person that's like one of the earliest people to 55 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 2: have started conceiving of like all Africans as one race, 56 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 2: which is just not an idea that had existed before. 57 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 1: Right. 58 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,159 Speaker 2: So Stevin lived at a time that like these categories 59 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 2: were still being thought of in formula and formalized and 60 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 2: adopted within European societies, and the idea of African American 61 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 2: as that means something today that was not even that 62 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 2: was so far away. He's, like, we said, the first 63 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 2: non indigenous person of any race to make it as 64 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 2: far into North America as what we know as New 65 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 2: Mexico and Arizona. But that is not the same thing 66 00:04:55,680 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 2: as being an African American, as that term means. 67 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, if you could speak one of the many languages 68 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:05,599 Speaker 1: he spoke and went back in time and tried to 69 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: explain this, you would get what yah stairs up blankness. 70 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: This episode was wild to me because it's talking about 71 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: like where I grew up. Oh yeah, you know, I 72 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 1: after I was nine. I grew up on the Gulf 73 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: Coast and I actually just got back from Tampa Bay, 74 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,679 Speaker 1: So like it was just like, is this the time 75 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 1: travel yeah of my map story? Yeah, kind of Yeah. 76 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 2: I also read a number of essays that we're talking 77 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 2: about weather, like how his position within this group of 78 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 2: four changed over the course of their efforts to get 79 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 2: back into Spanish controlled and territory, and then after they 80 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: got to Mexico City, and how it seems like he 81 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 2: was in a kind of. 82 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: Great area for a while where he. 83 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 2: Maybe wasn't being seen exactly as enslaved, but also didn't 84 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 2: seem to be free. And there was an argument in 85 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: some of these essays that I found interesting but also incorrect, 86 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 2: because a lot of them were like they couldn't have 87 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 2: thought of him as their slave because they were relying 88 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 2: on him for their safety and survival. And I'm just like, yeah, 89 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 2: like the entire American South, for the entire history of slavery, 90 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 2: you had enslaved people who were making people's food and 91 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 2: delivering people's babies and driving their carriages, like literally doing 92 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 2: all of the things that were required for survival. That 93 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: wasn't exclusive to the American South, but like the American 94 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 2: South became a society where that was entrenched, and a 95 00:06:54,240 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: lot of enslaved African people were handling everybody's very survival 96 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 2: all the time. And even after you got out of 97 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 2: the South and slavery was abolished in places outside of 98 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: the South, there were still people who were free black 99 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 2: people being treated as second class citizens, who were still 100 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: doing all that completely critical work. And I was like, 101 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 2: that's just you. You cannot say he wasn't like their 102 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 2: slave because he had he had their lives in his hands. 103 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 2: I'm like that a lot of enslaved people had white 104 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 2: people's lives in their hands, like they literally took care 105 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: of their infants, Like yeah, yeah, yeah, that doesn't make 106 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 2: any sense. It was I was like that your argument 107 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 2: is not adding up to me. It does for sure 108 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 2: seem like that he based on other things beyond the 109 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 2: fact that he had their lives in his hands, that 110 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 2: it seems like that they he wound up in kind 111 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 2: of a nebulous area. But right, yeah, I was like, 112 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 2: this argument is not adding up to me. This is 113 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 2: one of those things where I hope, well, I don't 114 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 2: want to say that I was gonna say, I hope 115 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 2: no one ever makes a movie about him, because I 116 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 2: feel like it would very quickly devolve into like super 117 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: tropey feel good. But then if the right person made 118 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 2: the movie, it would be fine. But I just think 119 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 2: the odds would be long. Then it wouldn't it wouldn't 120 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 2: get a little yeah whitewashed. There are a couple of 121 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 2: biographies about him. One of them I think was written 122 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: in the sixties, if I remember correctly. I did not 123 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 2: read that one, but I did read I think read is. 124 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 2: I did not thoroughly read it. I did read Esteban 125 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 2: by Dennis Herrick with reading more meaning confirming particular details. Yeah, 126 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 2: not reading the whole thing thoroughly. And that one just 127 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 2: came out in twenty eighteen, so it's a pretty new 128 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 2: book and it is from the University of New Mexico press. 129 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 2: I generally found it to be more accessible than a 130 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 2: lot of things that are published through university presses. 131 00:08:57,760 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. 132 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that university universe city presses are inherently inaccessible, 133 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 2: but I do read some books that have come from 134 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 2: university presses that are there's like more jargon from the 135 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 2: field of history, right, They're just more academic. 136 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: They're not intended for a general audience. 137 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 2: That's a better word than what I was trying to say. 138 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 2: And this one I thought, I felt like, did a 139 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 2: really good job of setting some context that will make 140 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 2: parts of it more understandable for a general audience that 141 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 2: a lot of times the more academic work would just 142 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 2: skip over, kind of assuming that the audience reading it 143 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 2: would already know this stuff. Yeah, and that was one 144 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 2: of the things that I was like, Oh, I like 145 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 2: that this is included, which is something that I would 146 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 2: not necessarily see coming from an academic press. And a 147 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 2: lot of the cases, so if people want more detail, 148 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,719 Speaker 2: because there is so much more detail about this whole expedition, 149 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 2: that's one of the places you could go look for it. 150 00:09:57,640 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: Again. 151 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: That is Estebane by Dennis Harre, which came out in 152 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen from University of New Mexico Press. I tried 153 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 2: to read a lot of stuff from a lot of 154 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 2: different perspectives to see how, like, how are scholars who 155 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 2: grew up in Morocco talking about him, How our indigenous 156 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 2: anthropologists and historians talk about them talk about him. 157 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: There's a lot. 158 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 2: There's definitely more about him now than there was even 159 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 2: ten years ago available for folks who are interested. We 160 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 2: talked about Buck versus Bell this week. 161 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: Oh, we sure did. 162 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 2: That, Like that case has come up in a number 163 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 2: of previous episodes. I did not have the experience I 164 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 2: expected to find when I started researching it, because I 165 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 2: knew I knew the basics of the case, right. I 166 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 2: knew that Carrie Bell had a child, and that Carrie's 167 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: mother had also been institutionalized, and that there was this 168 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 2: argument that Carrie should be sterilized, that she could not 169 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 2: have any more children, and that three generation of imbeciles 170 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 2: is enough is quoted all over the place. I did 171 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 2: not expect number one as much information about Carrie Buck 172 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 2: as has been unearthed. I mean, there's still big gaps 173 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,079 Speaker 2: in it, but largely because of the work of Paul Lombardo, 174 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 2: Like there's a lot more known and documented about her 175 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 2: and her family today. I was not really expecting. Maybe 176 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 2: I should have been, but I wasn't really expecting the 177 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:56,719 Speaker 2: story of the court case to involve everybody basically railroading 178 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 2: it through. Like I just it did not really occurred 179 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 2: to me at the beginning that this was going to 180 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 2: be a story in which the attorney that was appointed 181 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 2: to represent Carrie Buck was really going to be working 182 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 2: for the other side for all practical purposes like that. 183 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 2: I was not I did not realize that was going 184 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 2: to be the case. And I said already, like literally 185 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 2: three hours after I emailed you this outline came all 186 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 2: the headlines about the request to overturn Obergefell, and already 187 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 2: we have talked earlier this year about the request not 188 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 2: exactly requid, but like the attempts to have the Supreme 189 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 2: Court overturn the constitutional right to birthright citizenship. I'd already 190 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 2: had in my mind, like there have been a lot 191 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 2: of times that the Supreme Court has authored decisions that 192 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 2: have made things worse, and I wasn't expecting in this 193 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 2: case for that to extend to her not even really 194 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 2: being defended. Yeah, it was just not I don't know, 195 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 2: I was not expecting that. 196 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: This one makes me such a rage monster for two, 197 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: for many reasons, but the big two. Okay, One, there 198 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: sure is a lot of discussion about what is appropriate 199 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: for her, and no discussion at all about teaching men 200 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: not to take advantage of women, right, which makes my 201 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: blood boil and I want to say a lot of 202 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: words that are not suitable for this podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Two, 203 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: while we were discussing this, I thought back to my 204 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: own by choice sterilization and how when I first started 205 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: raising that issue to my doctor, I think I was 206 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: twenty nine. I talked to several different doctors about it, 207 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 1: and at the time all of them wanted to talk 208 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: to my husband about it. And it's like, you know what, 209 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: even if you do want it, you still have to 210 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: get a dude's permission. Yeah, what the heck? Man? Yeah, 211 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: those two things really made me. I rate throughout to 212 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: read it this episode. 213 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, on your first point, that was one of the 214 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 2: lines of argument that her attorney could have pursued if 215 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 2: he had wanted to, because there was a lot of 216 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 2: discussion about like, oh, well, she's obviously irresponsible, she's obviously 217 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 2: just going to have a lot more children if we 218 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 2: don't do something about it. It was never brought up 219 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 2: that her account was that he had raped her, and 220 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: that just wasn't brought into the questioning at all. I 221 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 2: don't know of any consequence that ever happened to him 222 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 2: in any way. And as we said, like his his 223 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 2: aunt was the person that raised Carrie Buck's baby, all 224 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 2: of which is infuriating. And then on your your second point, 225 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 2: it is the same double standard as we see in 226 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 2: gender affirming healthcare. If you want to have a breast 227 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 2: augmentation because you are a cisgender woman who wants bigger breasts, great, 228 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 2: nobody is really going to challenge that. But if you 229 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: are a trans woman who wants a breast augmentation, there 230 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 2: are a bajillion hurdles and attempts to outlaw that entirely, 231 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 2: and a bunch of absolutely blatant misinformation about what is 232 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 2: happening with children's gender affirming care, which in the vast, 233 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 2: vast majority of cases involves things like socially transitioning, so 234 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: letting kids use the name and wear the clothing that 235 00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 2: they would prefer to wear, and hormone blockers, which we 236 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 2: have plenty of documentation about because they are routinely prescribed 237 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 2: to kids who are going through precocious puberty, meaning going 238 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 2: through puberty too early, medically too early, and so like, 239 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 2: if a cisgender child is in precocious puberty, puberty blackers 240 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 2: no problem. If a trans child would like to put 241 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 2: off the physical changes of puberty until they are older 242 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 2: and can think about what it will mean to have 243 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 2: a permanently life changing, physically changing surgery, suddenly puberty blockers 244 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 2: becomes a whole big deal, and that also infuriates me. 245 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 2: All of this stuff is tied together. Trans rights are 246 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 2: connected to disability rights, all of this, there's this, they all. 247 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 2: They have a lot of similar roots. 248 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: I am. 249 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 2: I'm frustrated and infuriated the same way you are. One 250 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 2: of the things that I was looking up as I 251 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 2: was researching this was like Virginia's apology for this law. 252 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 2: There have been some states that have passed laws to 253 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 2: compensate people who were sterilized under their eugenics programs. One 254 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 2: of those is North Carolina, which is where I am from. 255 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 2: North Carolina was the first state to compensate victims of 256 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 2: its eugenic sterilization program. 257 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: I was not. 258 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 2: I don't think I was living in North Carolina when 259 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 2: this happened, but I was not aware until googling around 260 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 2: while working on this episode that North Carolina's legislation for 261 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 2: this was largely led by a man named Larry Womble, 262 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 2: who was my assistant principal. Huh, total news to me. 263 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 2: He passed away in twenty twenty, I think twenty twenty. 264 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 2: But yeah, like he was a big part of getting 265 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 2: that passed in North Carolina. Not all states passed such programs. 266 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,639 Speaker 2: I don't remember if Virginia did or not. There are 267 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 2: limits to how much money can compensate a person for 268 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 2: surgeries made on their bodies without their consent or in 269 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 2: some case even knowledge. I don't know if I have 270 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 2: anything else to say about Buck versus Bill today me there, 271 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 2: I'm just super mad. I'm also super mad. I've said before. 272 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 2: It's been a super long time on the show. But 273 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 2: I've said before, but I think some of the Supreme 274 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 2: Court decisions that people learn the most about in the 275 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 2: United States and the world of like K through twelve 276 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 2: education are the Supreme Court decisions that made progress in 277 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 2: making sure everyone had access in recognitions of this of 278 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,120 Speaker 2: the same rights. So things like Brown versus Board Right, 279 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 2: things like Loving versus Virginia, which overturns Virginia's antime assagination law, 280 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 2: which was also a eugenics law because it was about 281 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 2: protecting white racial purity. But there are many many more 282 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 2: Supreme Court cases that were the opposite of that, that 283 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 2: were like I mean, some of which we've talked about 284 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 2: on the show before, like Plusy versus Ferguson, dred Scott 285 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 2: versus Sandford. The idea that the Supreme Court is somehow 286 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 2: going to save us from horrific lawmakers has not worked 287 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 2: out a lot of the time. 288 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of a lot 289 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: of the way those syllabi get put together. One a 290 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 1: lot of times they get put into like civics classes 291 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: that are very much in the raw ra this is 292 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: the best way. So of course they're not going to 293 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: include anything dicey. Yeah. Also, I mean, I will say 294 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: we joked about it in the show, but like, it 295 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 1: is hard to read and parse a lot of Supreme 296 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: Court opinion writing because it tends to be very long 297 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: and very verbose. And so the trick is that even 298 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: if somebody like especially of your high school age and 299 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 1: you get curious and you go looking. You really need 300 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: an assist or to find a great study guide, yeah, 301 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,439 Speaker 1: to walk you through those, and those aren't always easy 302 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 1: to find, right. 303 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: Sometimes they're also like Supreme Court opinions can be very 304 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 2: dense with citations of all of the precedents, which can 305 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 2: make it really hard to even get through a sentence 306 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 2: sometimes because it feels like there's nine thousand citations in there, 307 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 2: and if you're not familiar, you. 308 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 1: Have to do extra homework for each sense. 309 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:53,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're not familiar with what all of those 310 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,479 Speaker 2: citations are about, then it can bog down really quickly. 311 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 2: The fact that this decision was so short we could 312 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 2: have just read the whole thing on the show really 313 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 2: is wild dramatically shorter than. 314 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: Most decisions today. 315 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 2: And not in a way like if you look at 316 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 2: very old laws in the United States, some of them 317 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 2: are very short and are much much shorter than today, 318 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 2: where bills can go on for hundreds or thousands of pages. 319 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 2: And it's not quite like that. It's that this one 320 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:34,120 Speaker 2: was particularly unusually short and awful and never directly overturned. 321 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 2: On that note, I hope everybody's Saturday is better than 322 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 2: this episode was whatever is happening in your world? I 323 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 2: hope it is going as well as it can go, 324 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 2: and I hope you're able to take some time to 325 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 2: kind of center and focus on yourself. I have found 326 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 2: in my own life that if I am literally myself 327 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 2: in every headline and every development all day long, forever, 328 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 2: then I stop being able to cope with all of it. 329 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 2: And so I have tried to make it a point to, 330 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 2: at some points of the day see what's happening in 331 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 2: the world, but at other points in the day try 332 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 2: to be more focused on what I'm actually doing and 333 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 2: what I can do to help when that's possible. We 334 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 2: will be back with a Saturday Classic tomorrow. We will 335 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:36,399 Speaker 2: have something brand new on Monday. Stuff You Missed in 336 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 2: History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts 337 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 2: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 338 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows.