Speaker 1: We may never be able to agree on what impact
Speaker 1: social media has had on our hunting, good or bad,
Speaker 1: but I may not have met today's guest without it.
Speaker 1: Trent Williams is one of those guys I always saw
Speaker 1: popping up on social media with great polls year after year,
Speaker 1: and come to find out they were on general Wyoming tags.
Speaker 1: He's out of Green River, Wyoming is one of the
Speaker 1: most consistent elk hunters I know. Today, I wanted to
Speaker 1: dive into a little bit of what he does to
Speaker 1: find success. You're in and year out. Welcome to the
Speaker 1: show Tramp. Thanks Jason. I very much appreciate you having
Speaker 1: me on and and just being able to sit down
Speaker 1: and talk el hunting with you for a while. How's
Speaker 1: everything going there in Wyoming? Good? I mean this year.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just because I'm a little more focused about it.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but it seems like a little bit
Speaker 1: more of a wet summer, which every he knows we
Speaker 1: need across the West, and it feels a lot nicer
Speaker 1: oute and everything. Everything's rolling along smooth out here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, speaking of the wet summer, you know, wet
Speaker 1: late spring. I know, horn growth across the West is
Speaker 1: um it's it's off the charts and a lot of units.
Speaker 1: It will be good for for anybody out there looking
Speaker 1: for a few extra inches at elk horn. But yeah,
Speaker 1: one little STATU had in Wyoming too is that they
Speaker 1: claim and it's crazy coming from an area that has
Speaker 1: you know, single digit success rate, but your guys, is
Speaker 1: general tags um or or or I guess elk percentage
Speaker 1: elk success overall is forty four point four percent, which
Speaker 1: I think is unmatched, not even the second runner up
Speaker 1: isn't even close. And so, um, that's a little tidbit
Speaker 1: of information I have on Wyoming that just you know,
Speaker 1: the elk hunting in Wyoming, not that you guys want
Speaker 1: any more people, but you know, the not us non
Speaker 1: residents are capped anyways, so you're you're you're gonna get
Speaker 1: what you get. But just Wyoming is one of those
Speaker 1: states where it's just like you guys, you guys are
Speaker 1: still living in what we consider the hey days of
Speaker 1: elk season in my opinion, or elk hunting in my opinion. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've heard it. I've heard it said by you know
Speaker 1: a lot of people, me included, that we really are
Speaker 1: in in the glory days of el cunning right now,
Speaker 1: and we have problems with you know, other populations of
Speaker 1: animals meldeers on decline everywhere, but Elk are really doing
Speaker 1: really well. And I feel fortunate to live here and
Speaker 1: just be able to hunt this state every single year
Speaker 1: where people are basically clawned to come on here, even
Speaker 1: on a on a general tag. Yeah, pretty pretty good.
Speaker 1: So to start the podcast off, we're gonna take some
Speaker 1: listener questions, and once again for all of you out there,
Speaker 1: if you have a question you want submitted UM from
Speaker 1: my guests or myself to answer, please email us at
Speaker 1: ct D at Phelps game Calls dot com. We'll do
Speaker 1: our best to field your questions and get those answered.
Speaker 1: So the first question I have for you, Trent Elk.
Speaker 1: We're in an area in early August. Will they be
Speaker 1: there in September? The in my experience, uh, the bulls
Speaker 1: that I found in early August UM are not in
Speaker 1: the same place as UM in September. UM. I found.
Speaker 1: The only real key takeaways that I found in August
Speaker 1: UM in my scouting missions is to find the nursery
Speaker 1: of cows. And then I went back to those areas
Speaker 1: that had all the cows in them during the summer months,
Speaker 1: and the bulls just kind of show up. So I
Speaker 1: used to run trail cams a lot um and even
Speaker 1: scout harder in the places that you know, I now
Speaker 1: frequent a whole bunch, so it doesn't feel as important
Speaker 1: to me, but it still is important to go take
Speaker 1: inventory of the bulls there, and those same bulls that
Speaker 1: I might get on camera, you know, miles away could
Speaker 1: still show up um with those same cows. But as
Speaker 1: far as patterns, I have never been good at finding
Speaker 1: a spot in August that I can go back to
Speaker 1: in September with any success. Yeah, and I'm on the
Speaker 1: same exact um, you know, wavelength you are there. We
Speaker 1: used to spend a lot of time before I knew
Speaker 1: any better, you know, scouting bulls, and I didn't realize
Speaker 1: I really needed to be paying attention to those cows,
Speaker 1: because you know, as soon as around here August arrives,
Speaker 1: those bulls were leaving to go start to check on
Speaker 1: those those big groups of cows, you know, start to
Speaker 1: break them up. Um, And yeah, it's just that natural process.
Speaker 1: And once who understand that I'd rather pay attention to
Speaker 1: cows or even more importantly, you know, rub areas stuff
Speaker 1: like that, wallows um are more important. I do have
Speaker 1: a question for you, since you pay a lot of
Speaker 1: attention and you know target specific bulls, what what's the
Speaker 1: forthest you've seen, you know, an elk move from maybe
Speaker 1: that that Midsummer range to where they're gonna you know,
Speaker 1: ultimately find them during the or once season rolls around
Speaker 1: in September. Well, I don't know that I have a
Speaker 1: real good bead um on movement like that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I can't even honestly say that I've seen the same
Speaker 1: bulls after I've scouted them, you know, in these general
Speaker 1: over the counter units. I don't know that I've scouted
Speaker 1: the same bulls that I've been seen with the cows.
Speaker 1: So as far as movement, you know, I'm not real sure.
Speaker 1: I just know that I have had bulls that I've
Speaker 1: hunted during the month of September that I've moved and
Speaker 1: extremely long ways, especially when they're bumped. I mean I
Speaker 1: had it to where I bumped out maybe a couple
Speaker 1: of different times, um, and they've stayed in the same area.
Speaker 1: But then I don't know. It seems like when you
Speaker 1: finally do booger Um, I've had him, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I've been seen as far as ten miles away,
Speaker 1: which in the mountains obviously, as you know, is a
Speaker 1: huge distance. So yeah, yeah, tough to tough to cover
Speaker 1: that ground and stay with them. So um yeah. To
Speaker 1: to reiterate what Trent said, where you find elk in
Speaker 1: early August, especially the bowls is not where you're going
Speaker 1: to find them. Um come September, I would, you know,
Speaker 1: focus your attention on the cows, the bigger groups of cows,
Speaker 1: and pay attention to that area or in close proximity
Speaker 1: to that area as a season approaches. So the second
Speaker 1: question for you when drawing a game plan for the day,
Speaker 1: how do you decide where you're going to start and
Speaker 1: how does your day progress? Like? Can you can you
Speaker 1: build out a day? Um, you know, in the life
Speaker 1: of hunting elk in the woods, I can try. On
Speaker 1: a perfect day, I guess I would have a game
Speaker 1: plan from the night before, whether that's like if I'm
Speaker 1: just starting a trip off, I'll try and get into
Speaker 1: the wood or uh, you know, get to camp before
Speaker 1: nightfall that evening and then just be able to either
Speaker 1: scout or bugle or do something to try and get
Speaker 1: my head in the game for the next morning. If
Speaker 1: I have completely nothing going, then I'll usually start start
Speaker 1: my morning early and road bugle. Uh. Basically try and
Speaker 1: be either on elk right and early when the sun
Speaker 1: comes up, or be hiking into where I feel like
Speaker 1: I have my best chance to get on elk, whether
Speaker 1: that's um, taking into consideration the people around um, or
Speaker 1: you know, any other kind of circumstances we could have. UM.
Speaker 1: I guess after the you know, morning kind of leads
Speaker 1: us to to what we do the rest of the day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: do you do you prefer to glass right off the
Speaker 1: bat or do you want to be right, you know,
Speaker 1: on top of elk or or do you not have
Speaker 1: a preference. I'd prefer to be right on top of them.
Speaker 1: I I joke with you know a couple of hunting
Speaker 1: buddies that I usually spook more elk before some people
Speaker 1: wake up in the morning, and that actually gets kind
Speaker 1: of rustrating at times. But I also, I mean, I
Speaker 1: just feel it's important to keep contact with elk, especially
Speaker 1: in the morning when they're moving from that feeding to
Speaker 1: bedding area. Just being able to be right on top
Speaker 1: of them, you know, the best time of day, you're
Speaker 1: gonna get to kill them when they're most vocal, most active,
Speaker 1: and be able to be in position to strike sometimes,
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, I get in over my head and
Speaker 1: I spook balls in the dark and elk as a
Speaker 1: whole in the dark. But it's kind of just a
Speaker 1: price I've learned to pay with and and try and
Speaker 1: learn my lesson. But at the same time, I guess
Speaker 1: I'm not all that disappointed in it, because I know
Speaker 1: I was trying to put myself in the best position
Speaker 1: I could be to succeed that day. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1: And that's one thing that we as well learned, you know,
Speaker 1: is I learned to hunt a certain way here on
Speaker 1: the coast range. You know, we had a lot of
Speaker 1: clear cuts and and industrial timberlands, and when we decided
Speaker 1: to start hunting the mountains, um, we quickly learned that.
Speaker 1: You know, right off the bat, I wanted to always
Speaker 1: take the easy route, stay high on the ridge, you know,
Speaker 1: be on a trail, um, do things that were easy. Um.
Speaker 1: But then you start to realize, well, I'm we're gonna
Speaker 1: kill an elk from up here with the thermals, you know,
Speaker 1: at least not in the first couple hours, and so
Speaker 1: we started to learn over time, like, hey, we got
Speaker 1: to get up an hour hour and a half earlier,
Speaker 1: we need to go down the ridge and then we
Speaker 1: need to go down in the drainage and approach it
Speaker 1: was alk a different way, and so you know, similar
Speaker 1: to that, Like you know, we bumped a lot of elk.
Speaker 1: We we bump a lot of elk being aggressive, trying
Speaker 1: to get in tight you know, as they're biggling a
Speaker 1: little bit more during the dark and try to be
Speaker 1: you know, you get as close as possible without you know,
Speaker 1: you're kind of we're running that that risk of is
Speaker 1: it going to be daylight by time, you know everything,
Speaker 1: So you're kind of shadow in the herd, and we
Speaker 1: do a lot of that that same stuff, very aggressive play,
Speaker 1: but um, at least we're on those elk as soon
Speaker 1: as daylight hits. Yeah, And like you mentioned, a lot
Speaker 1: of times you have to approach from the bottom and
Speaker 1: that's I mean, that's tough too, to try and chase
Speaker 1: down elk up a mountain. Um, Like you're saying it's
Speaker 1: easier to be on top, but you're sometimes that's not
Speaker 1: necessarily the best position to kill those elk. On top
Speaker 1: where they can smell you. So a lot of it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just I guess it just comes down to feel.
Speaker 1: I mean, I like to be right on top of
Speaker 1: Elk as the sun rises. A lot of people maybe
Speaker 1: would you know, rather take that easier route? Yep, yep.
Speaker 1: So um, thank you very much for those two. Um.
Speaker 1: Once again, if you have any questions of your own,
Speaker 1: please email them at ct D app Phelps game Calls
Speaker 1: dot Com and will do our best to get those
Speaker 1: answered for you. So now we're gonna jump into some
Speaker 1: questions that I have for Trent and just um, some
Speaker 1: information that I want to talk about. I think it's important,
Speaker 1: and we'll get it started off with the moon phase.
Speaker 1: Does the moon phase affect how you hunt or plan
Speaker 1: your hunt? How you know, how you take your days
Speaker 1: off or your vacation any of that, and kind of
Speaker 1: how does moon phase affect your arch real kunny. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've gone back and forth on this, I guess just
Speaker 1: I don't know. As experiences start to kind of rack up,
Speaker 1: I still as a whole the full moon, you know
Speaker 1: week has always been slower for me, but then I've
Speaker 1: also seen being able to hunt, you know, basically um,
Speaker 1: the entire month of September, the ebbs and flows of
Speaker 1: the Elk Rut as a whole. You think that, you know,
Speaker 1: just because we get into late September and the fact
Speaker 1: that there's no moon, that the Elk ruts just going
Speaker 1: to be off the charts no matter what. And I've
Speaker 1: seen that not be the case either where you have
Speaker 1: quiet woods, So um, I mean my usual pattern anymore.
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily can't say I don't enjoy it, but
Speaker 1: the two week long trips are hard on me. I
Speaker 1: like to just like those five six day blocks, especially
Speaker 1: being in state. Obviously this is easier. But if I
Speaker 1: could just plan those five six day blocks out um,
Speaker 1: and if the ruts not happening, you know, I kind
Speaker 1: of have some freedom. I can go home or whatever.
Speaker 1: And if it really is happening, I can take a
Speaker 1: couple of extra days off. And that's really kind of
Speaker 1: how I play it anymore. When it's good, I try
Speaker 1: and stay on. And when it's not, you know, obviously
Speaker 1: I still hunt hard and try some different tactics like
Speaker 1: sitting wallows. But you also, you know, you got to
Speaker 1: pick your vacation days wisely, and and that's I've been
Speaker 1: lucky enough to go about it in that way instead
Speaker 1: of the moon phase. So yeah, the full moon, I
Speaker 1: don't like it. I don't like hunting during it necessarily.
Speaker 1: It gives me a feeling that it's not going to
Speaker 1: be good. But um, I've had it to where you know,
Speaker 1: there's both google and on the full moon, just like
Speaker 1: no moon. So yeah, And do you find that those
Speaker 1: bulls are just more active at night during that moon
Speaker 1: phase versus you know, a lot less running action during
Speaker 1: the day when you can hunt, versus they're doing all
Speaker 1: of it at night. Um? Or do you just feel
Speaker 1: that it shuts them down a little bit? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean I I do feel that way. I think the
Speaker 1: full moon they're you know, they're more active, they're out
Speaker 1: feeding all night. Um. And then honestly, and I guess
Speaker 1: another thing I try and do is camp up high
Speaker 1: And a lot of that experience being camped up high
Speaker 1: on ridge tops has allowed me to listen for elk
Speaker 1: as I'm sleeping in my wallton at night. And that's
Speaker 1: kind of become an important thing too, is is being
Speaker 1: able to kind of keep track, you know, what the
Speaker 1: elk are doing with any different moon phase or weather pattern.
Speaker 1: In the middle of the night and then that has
Speaker 1: helped jump start me to to to the stuff I
Speaker 1: want to do in the morning. But um, just being
Speaker 1: able to kind of keep track of them during the
Speaker 1: night and see and what what changes with these elk
Speaker 1: patterns in the full moon. I'm on board fully. You know.
Speaker 1: Moon phase always seems to you know, knock the rut
Speaker 1: down from where it was, and there always seems to
Speaker 1: be a phase after, you know, the full moon where
Speaker 1: things picked back up. I'd prefer to hunt on the
Speaker 1: back end of a full moon. Um, it just seems
Speaker 1: that the action. But you know, we don't get to
Speaker 1: pick when it is and how it coordinates with the
Speaker 1: full rut. So you know, I'm I'm you know, limited
Speaker 1: days in September. I'm usually out there regardless, um, you know.
Speaker 1: And and I did an experiment. You know, I'm an
Speaker 1: engineer by trade, and my mind works that way. So
Speaker 1: I remember it was back in like maybe two thousand,
Speaker 1: fifteen sixteen. I went back and I could remember all
Speaker 1: the dates that I had killed elk on you know,
Speaker 1: either through pictures or I could just remember the days
Speaker 1: very distinctly, and then went and checked that with the
Speaker 1: moon phase and I had killed to that point, like
Speaker 1: three or four of my biggest bull bolls on like
Speaker 1: two days of either side of the full moon. And
Speaker 1: you know whether and whether it's just a coincidence or
Speaker 1: whether there's correlation. And then one year we went up
Speaker 1: in a in a wilderness area and hung a camera
Speaker 1: specifically on what I would consider a more wide open wallow.
Speaker 1: You know, it was a natural spring out out more
Speaker 1: in the sun, the heat high in a basin where
Speaker 1: elk typically wouldn't be in the middle of the day. Um,
Speaker 1: we set the trail camera up there, and to my surprise,
Speaker 1: I could never do this again. We didn't have a
Speaker 1: picture of a deer, didn't have a picture of a bear,
Speaker 1: didn't have a picture of anything, not even cows, nothing
Speaker 1: but bulls. You know, the entire month of August. I
Speaker 1: think it's six hundred and seventy odd pictures of bulls.
Speaker 1: And I didn't do this, but my buddy did it.
Speaker 1: But I was able to look at the data. We
Speaker 1: went and looked at, you know, the snapshot of and
Speaker 1: we removed duplicates, but we went and looked at like
Speaker 1: when that bowl was out in the middle of the heat,
Speaker 1: and you know, or even nighttime and checked it against
Speaker 1: moon phase, and by time we were done, Like, man,
Speaker 1: there's really no rhyme or reason, Like it didn't matter
Speaker 1: that month if it was before the moon, whether it
Speaker 1: was during full moon, or whether it was on you know,
Speaker 1: the trailing moon. Like it didn't seem to matter on
Speaker 1: when those elk were you know, daytime, nighttime, any of that. Um. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm not telling everybody don't pay attention to it, because
Speaker 1: it's obvious. You've you've experienced, you know, uh, a little
Speaker 1: bit of lack in in in the rut and and
Speaker 1: I've experienced the same thing. But I I guess the
Speaker 1: general consensus is pay attention to the moon phase. You know,
Speaker 1: plan your vacation accordingly. But there's only so many days
Speaker 1: in September, and and uh, I just soon be out
Speaker 1: there struggling through the moon phase versus you know, being
Speaker 1: at home. But um, you know there's also guys out
Speaker 1: there with limited time, and um, you know, effort, you know,
Speaker 1: as you said, you get burnt down, you know a
Speaker 1: little bit from chasing them during those hard times. So yeah,
Speaker 1: that that's kind of where we're at on on the
Speaker 1: moon phase. Pay attention to it. Um, it does matter,
Speaker 1: but um, it is what it is, especially during September. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I know that my answer maybe necessarily doesn't help
Speaker 1: somebody plan their vacation on the moon phase. You know.
Speaker 1: My answer basically is just when you can kind of
Speaker 1: like yours, I mean, and you're gonna have higher chances
Speaker 1: about bugling in the later half of September. So I
Speaker 1: think that's a that's a better bet than I mean,
Speaker 1: I would bet on that more so than I would,
Speaker 1: you know, coming early in September, because the moon is better.
Speaker 1: I guess That's what I'm trying to get at. Don't
Speaker 1: don't necessarily make the moon you're deciding factor and think
Speaker 1: that the elk cred is gonna be better on September
Speaker 1: three than it is on September. You know. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a that's a great point, um, you know, and then
Speaker 1: trying to you know, we could talk about all the
Speaker 1: differences between where the moon phases versus the you know,
Speaker 1: the time in September, and um, you'd have to write
Speaker 1: a book on how to figure it out. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I agree with you. There. You live you know in
Speaker 1: Wyoming Hunt in Wyoming, Um, you know, the heart of
Speaker 1: Wolf Country. Um, my Idaho spot is in wolf country
Speaker 1: and my Montana spots you know, covered up in wolves. UM.
Speaker 1: In your opinion, what is different? How did the elk
Speaker 1: you know, react different whether there are wolves in the
Speaker 1: area actively in the area, and then how do you
Speaker 1: kind of adapt your strategies to deal with wolves um
Speaker 1: in the same spot you want to hunt elk. I
Speaker 1: don't know that. I think for a while it was
Speaker 1: and I don't know if I just jumped on the
Speaker 1: bandwagon or not or what necessarily happened, But it was
Speaker 1: not for a while that the elk got a whole
Speaker 1: lot quieter. And I think to some degree that's true. Um.
Speaker 1: But we have we have a few places that that
Speaker 1: are pretty heavy in wolf country. And I can't say
Speaker 1: that I necessarily hunted any different than I than I
Speaker 1: did before, or or would hunt it any differently. I
Speaker 1: can't say there's a correlation correlation and them timbering up
Speaker 1: more anything like that. And and I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's because the wolf packs out here have such a
Speaker 1: huge home range, um that it doesn't bother him as much.
Speaker 1: But I just back to kind of what we started
Speaker 1: with and the fact that this is glory days of
Speaker 1: elk hunting and wyoming is um. You know, units across
Speaker 1: the board, you know, give or take a few, are
Speaker 1: are high in population. And uh, I think just the
Speaker 1: elk cret just by that fact alone, is I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess to shorten it up, I haven't seen much
Speaker 1: of a change as far as how I approach things.
Speaker 1: Wolves or no wolves. Yeah, that that's great information from
Speaker 1: you know, you've been in that same area for the
Speaker 1: you know what twenty plus years, and you know not
Speaker 1: to see a difference coming from western Washington where we
Speaker 1: don't have wolves and I get to go hunt, you know,
Speaker 1: spots like Idaho, Montana. UM, I noticed like a small
Speaker 1: localized difference. Um. We hunt an area that has what
Speaker 1: I would consider three main three major drainages out of it,
Speaker 1: and then we can we can be high and we
Speaker 1: can listen into him at night, and if we hear
Speaker 1: wolves howling, you know, in the evening, um or or
Speaker 1: at any time throughout the day in that specific drainage,
Speaker 1: we can almost guarantee it's gonna be a little bit
Speaker 1: quieter than maybe it was the day before, or or
Speaker 1: you know, if we've been hunt in the same area
Speaker 1: for the last week, it's like, all right, it's it
Speaker 1: seems to be a little dead now. Whether that's just
Speaker 1: once again coincidental, um, but we're almost to the point
Speaker 1: now where if we do hear wolves in a certain drainage,
Speaker 1: we'll just pick a different one to go into. Whether
Speaker 1: it's in my head, um or or I just think
Speaker 1: they're being less kind of like you said, we kind
Speaker 1: of just bought into the that they're having a huge effect.
Speaker 1: But once we get in tight, I feel like I
Speaker 1: just have to get in a little bit closer, maybe
Speaker 1: a little bit more intimate with these elk, and then
Speaker 1: we can get them to talk again. We're not necessarily
Speaker 1: they're not just completely mute. They don't talk for the
Speaker 1: entire day. They don't decide that you know that the
Speaker 1: wolves around they're going to be quiet for the next
Speaker 1: forty eight hours. In my opinion, there's still elk. They're
Speaker 1: still running their doing what elk do. They may just
Speaker 1: be a little bit a little bit more tight lipped,
Speaker 1: and and they just won't They require you to be
Speaker 1: a little bit closer before they're going to open up
Speaker 1: and talk back to you. Yeah, And I don't know
Speaker 1: that that I just have, you know, maybe a skewed
Speaker 1: perception just because the populations are doing so well. Because
Speaker 1: I know that, you know, talking with guys in Idaho
Speaker 1: and stuff where the population has crashed because of wolves,
Speaker 1: that's not the case. And I I've heard the same
Speaker 1: thing from guys that you know, got go hunting the
Speaker 1: thoroughfare in Wyoming too, that the experience is a whole
Speaker 1: lot different. But I haven't a walked in there that
Speaker 1: far into the thoroughfare kind of stuff, and don't have
Speaker 1: a horse to get in there. So these places, you know,
Speaker 1: like northern Idaho, I've heard the stories of. I mean,
Speaker 1: if the population is going to crash and these elkno
Speaker 1: that wolves are predator number one, I can very much
Speaker 1: imagine that that's the case for sure. I appreciate that
Speaker 1: tip from from a guy that's hunted you know, the
Speaker 1: same you know, same general area for for lots of years,
Speaker 1: and then you'll be able to give us a real
Speaker 1: good read on, you know, in your opinion, how wolves
Speaker 1: have affected it. So my next question for you, Trent
Speaker 1: is living in Wyoming, Um, you've got some pretty liberal
Speaker 1: hunting season dates, you know, aside from Montana. I think
Speaker 1: you guys maybe have the longest general. Um, you know
Speaker 1: archioks season. UM, so it's kind of the perfect question
Speaker 1: for you. UM, when do you find the most success?
Speaker 1: You know, you can hunt any we're from the beginning
Speaker 1: of September to the end of September, and then, um,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of explain you know, pre pre ru peak,
Speaker 1: post rut and when you found your most success and
Speaker 1: then what you what you found in the other two Um,
Speaker 1: you know, times I um kind of like you've I
Speaker 1: noticed when I was killing my best bulls and they
Speaker 1: were all earlier in September. So, um, I had success
Speaker 1: early in September for a lot of years. But I
Speaker 1: also the only thing that I'll add in about like
Speaker 1: season dates in Wyoming is I used to not necessarily
Speaker 1: be just just a strict archery l khunt or either
Speaker 1: there's seasons in Wyoming, like deer seasons in Alpine that
Speaker 1: open September fift So a lot of you know, some
Speaker 1: years I'd go and i'd l hunt the first you know,
Speaker 1: ten fifteen days of September whatever I could make work
Speaker 1: and then go rifle deer hunt. And so I think
Speaker 1: sometimes you know, especially you know early in my career,
Speaker 1: when I didn't have as much vacation I had to
Speaker 1: pick and choose. I really enjoyed Elk cunting early UM
Speaker 1: and then going to doing other things and trying to
Speaker 1: just fit in as much stuff as I could. So
Speaker 1: I had more success early and I thought maybe, you know,
Speaker 1: I had unlocked the key, and I don't know that
Speaker 1: that's necessarily the case anymore. I just think it was
Speaker 1: all about timing. But as far as going through September UM,
Speaker 1: I really I guess I just try and feel it out.
Speaker 1: I just try and match the mood of the ELK.
Speaker 1: Early September the last few years has been relatively dead.
Speaker 1: We've had a couple of times where on September one
Speaker 1: where Elk haven't had any pressure. You know, they're screaming
Speaker 1: the night before on August thirty one or whatever, and
Speaker 1: we've had a pretty good hunter. There's a day or two,
Speaker 1: like September three or fourth, where Elk are screaming pretty
Speaker 1: good and you're able to kind of play the game
Speaker 1: with them a little bit before everybody else starts to UM,
Speaker 1: but still just trying to kind of let out some
Speaker 1: some some slower UM location bugles, kind of those where
Speaker 1: are you bugles that are quieter in the timber, and
Speaker 1: just kind of really digging these elk out more so
Speaker 1: than trying to hunt them out to have screaming matches
Speaker 1: with them. I think has really helped me. I've been
Speaker 1: able to locate elk um when seemingly others can't, just
Speaker 1: by doing that, just by kind of getting in close
Speaker 1: into their bedding area, trying to play the wind and
Speaker 1: then letting out just these little grunts or or little
Speaker 1: calls tell you know, asking these elk where they are,
Speaker 1: and I've been answered by basically the same bugle back
Speaker 1: just to really low almost half bedded bugle I know,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about, Jason. But Um then
Speaker 1: as protruding into September, I mean, just just still trying
Speaker 1: to mac match their intensity. When it starts getting good
Speaker 1: middle of September, that first real good running activity, you know,
Speaker 1: I'll try and scream with them as much as I can. Um.
Speaker 1: With that said, I'm usually hunting elk solo um, and
Speaker 1: it's it's just really tough to be your own caller
Speaker 1: and shooters. So a lot of times I'm trying to
Speaker 1: get in as close as I if I can't, if
Speaker 1: I feel like I can't just spot and stock them
Speaker 1: or locate them and then stock in. I'm getting in
Speaker 1: as close as I can, basically throwing whatever calls I
Speaker 1: think are going to close the deal for me, and
Speaker 1: then running forward basically as much as I feel comfortable,
Speaker 1: whether that's twenty ords are a hundred yards, depending on
Speaker 1: the terrain, is basically my go to is. And then
Speaker 1: as we moved through September, like we talked about a
Speaker 1: little bit before those ebbs and flows of the season
Speaker 1: when it's really hot, I mean, I'll just go more aggressive.
Speaker 1: And then as September moves on and we get through
Speaker 1: those ebbs and flows of the season, just matching them
Speaker 1: and figuring out what makes them tick and staying close
Speaker 1: to them all day. Really, yeah, I've got a I've
Speaker 1: got a little bit of input here. You know, Washington
Speaker 1: were limited to about a ten day plus or minus season,
Speaker 1: and they added day or take a day away here.
Speaker 1: But our seasons have moved from like the first you know,
Speaker 1: day after Labor Day to like the twelve, and then
Speaker 1: at some time it went from like the tenth of
Speaker 1: they but I know, way back when, like the tenth
Speaker 1: of the thirteenth were like my better days right before
Speaker 1: the peat, you know, things were just getting going. And
Speaker 1: that's when I had found like my most success is like,
Speaker 1: all right, we're kind of out of the pre PREI rod,
Speaker 1: but we're right on the cusp of of what I
Speaker 1: would consider the peak ruck, kind of the main breeding season.
Speaker 1: And that's when I found success. Like right as those
Speaker 1: bulls are, you know, are to get you know, a
Speaker 1: little bit amped up and uh, a little bit testy,
Speaker 1: and that was kind of my time to use my
Speaker 1: more aggressive calling style. And then you know, post rut,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm not one of those guys that
Speaker 1: buys into the ruts super late or the rut didn't
Speaker 1: happen this year, but I've I've been able to spend
Speaker 1: a lot more time out in the woods, you know,
Speaker 1: with some of the October Montana seasons or you know,
Speaker 1: some of the units and Wyoming to let you continue
Speaker 1: to hunt into October UM. And I found that the
Speaker 1: ruts still cranking pretty dang good, you know, into October one,
Speaker 1: you know, all the way even to the October tenth
Speaker 1: and some of these areas I've hunted um, which you know,
Speaker 1: whether people, I think the majority people would consider that
Speaker 1: post rout, whether it's younger cows coming back in a
Speaker 1: second time or you know, just cows coming in late um.
Speaker 1: But you know, as of late it seems like the
Speaker 1: hunting can be really good, you know, even through that
Speaker 1: first part of October. UM and and but there's no
Speaker 1: denying the peak rut, you know, for for most people
Speaker 1: is what you're out there after to hear lots of bugles,
Speaker 1: a lot of action, and that not necessarily have to
Speaker 1: guess where they're at. Yeah, and we have just to
Speaker 1: add on to it a little bit more. We have
Speaker 1: rifle elk tags that open. A lot of them open
Speaker 1: October and a lot I mean, jeezus, it's very rare
Speaker 1: that I go a year without hearing a bowl on
Speaker 1: the morning of October fifteen. Sometimes when rifles start, rifle
Speaker 1: shots start singing out, it shuts him up, but pat
Speaker 1: it to where I've chased bugles from basically the entire week.
Speaker 1: I'm up there, rifle eil cutting up. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: kind of treating it like it's the middle of the red.
Speaker 1: I'm able to bugle at him and get him to answer.
Speaker 1: And obviously you're using a rifle, so that the range
Speaker 1: factor becomes a whole lot better. You don't have to
Speaker 1: get near as close. But yeah, the October stuff has
Speaker 1: been really good too, being a guy that I have
Speaker 1: to ask a question just because it always kind of
Speaker 1: it kind of catches me off guard. Being an archer
Speaker 1: end that goes to rifle. Does it take you a
Speaker 1: little bit on that first morning? But I don't gotta
Speaker 1: bow in my hand anymore. I can just shoot that
Speaker 1: from where I'm at. You know, It's like it always
Speaker 1: kind of like I have to laugh at myself because
Speaker 1: you go from bow mode for the you know month, Hey,
Speaker 1: this is this game just got a whole lot easier. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I've had a couple of times where, you know, my
Speaker 1: wife's been getting into into l cutting a little bit.
Speaker 1: She never did, you know, with her family before meeting me,
Speaker 1: but she loves listening to Elk bugle and being a
Speaker 1: part of it. But anyway, I've had a couple of
Speaker 1: times where I'm kind of trying to put the put
Speaker 1: the pieces together on how to get close to these
Speaker 1: bulls and you know, you got it at least in
Speaker 1: my brain that I'm not going to call out across
Speaker 1: the canyon, and you know, I'm not gonna do all
Speaker 1: these things, so I'm trying to mentally kind of figure
Speaker 1: out what I'm gonna do, and then I just kind
Speaker 1: of turned to her and go, well, geez, I guess
Speaker 1: all we have to do is have them step out
Speaker 1: in the middle of this meadow and there're three yards
Speaker 1: away and life's good. So yeah, the same kind of thing.
Speaker 1: All all you really have to do is get their
Speaker 1: attention having bugle back and the games on, or just
Speaker 1: move them, you know a little bit, and you're in
Speaker 1: the game as well. I've talked to you in the
Speaker 1: past a little bit. Uh, I know, you get up
Speaker 1: extremely early. You'll do some things like stay up late
Speaker 1: and even glass if the moonlight allows, um night locating,
Speaker 1: you know, road bugl NG. Can you kind of explain
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's obvious why you do it,
Speaker 1: but kind of your strategy and uh, you know, putting
Speaker 1: in all that extra effort to make sure that you're
Speaker 1: on out, you know, to start start with. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: road bugling stuff I really do when I've got nothing going.
Speaker 1: Kind of how we started the beginning of this podcast,
Speaker 1: which like if if nothing's happened the evening before, I've
Speaker 1: just got you know, I've got no idea what what
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do the next day, I'll just wake up
Speaker 1: and road bugle. Um that kind of touched on sleeping
Speaker 1: up high on a ridge top has helped too, because
Speaker 1: I mean, I've been woke up by bulls bugling before,
Speaker 1: but road bugling is huge just to um, yeah, to
Speaker 1: start the day when I've got nothing going on. I
Speaker 1: mean I've got up as early as three o'clock in
Speaker 1: the morning when I just really haven't figured anything out
Speaker 1: for a couple of days. That gives you time to
Speaker 1: hit some trailhead. I mean, road bugling kind of extended
Speaker 1: hit some trailheads. You can walk a half mile three
Speaker 1: cards of a mile to a high point that you know,
Speaker 1: you know nobody else is going to even hear that bugle,
Speaker 1: that you're going to have the entire woods to yourself
Speaker 1: and to be able to be able to scream down
Speaker 1: these ridge tops, you know, half miles, three cards a
Speaker 1: mile mile, whatever you need to do when these bulls
Speaker 1: are most active to get these responses is huge and
Speaker 1: doesn't obviously mean that it ends up in my favor
Speaker 1: every time, but um, just to have um that avenue
Speaker 1: to go with has just become something that I do religiously,
Speaker 1: and and even I guess when I do have something
Speaker 1: to go on waking up early in the morning, running
Speaker 1: down the ridge top bugling at these out and seeing
Speaker 1: if they're in the same spot I left him, or
Speaker 1: if they've switched ridges, and you know, I gotta do
Speaker 1: something else in the dark to get in position rather
Speaker 1: than selling out and being in the wrong spot. Is
Speaker 1: something else I'll do. Um that I consider the road bugling.
Speaker 1: And then the other part of waking up early really
Speaker 1: is just it's gamesmanship on on general tag public lands.
Speaker 1: I mean, you get to a spot and you hope
Speaker 1: that if you're parked there, you know the next guy
Speaker 1: won't walk in. It's not always the case, obviously, but
Speaker 1: I mean most of the time outdoorsman el hunters are
Speaker 1: are pretty respectful of that. And so I don't want
Speaker 1: to leave a lot of things up to luck, especially
Speaker 1: if I do have something go on my way. So
Speaker 1: to get up early, get to where I want to park,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe walk in that half mile mile, listen
Speaker 1: to the listen to the woods, wake up, whatever I
Speaker 1: need to do is all part of waking up early.
Speaker 1: That I'm lucky that I guess I'm able to. I've
Speaker 1: always been one of those people that just has no
Speaker 1: problem waking up early in the morning and I'm excited
Speaker 1: to go l cunning and when it's time to go,
Speaker 1: it's time to go. Yeah, those are all, you know,
Speaker 1: the same things we do. And it's hard to to
Speaker 1: kind of drill that into somebody's said, you know, it's
Speaker 1: like they want to be asleep when it gets dark,
Speaker 1: or back to camp, or you know, even as far
Speaker 1: as like only hunting to a point where you could
Speaker 1: then returning me back to your truck by dark. Um,
Speaker 1: I've used some of the those opportunities, like I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna sit out at the end of a ridge until
Speaker 1: dark because I've got to walk back an hour and
Speaker 1: a half and what better location or area to just
Speaker 1: listen on the way back. You know, some of these
Speaker 1: things that separate Um, yeah, I don't separate. The I'm
Speaker 1: gonna say at the ninety percentage from the ten per
Speaker 1: centers is you know, people that want to be back
Speaker 1: to their truck by dark because it's more comfortable, and
Speaker 1: then they're eating their dinner earlier. Like I'm willing to
Speaker 1: give up some of those luxuries in order to I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna sit out here until it gets dark listen
Speaker 1: for a little bit longer, because I should have put
Speaker 1: myself in a good area if I'm doing everything else right,
Speaker 1: you know, and then, um, you know, one thing we
Speaker 1: do is a lot of night locating. If we're not
Speaker 1: on elk, if we know they're elk in a certain
Speaker 1: area we've got on pattern, then we'll just leave the
Speaker 1: other elk alone. Um, not harass them. But you know,
Speaker 1: if we're not on elk or we haven't found them
Speaker 1: within a day, or we're in a unit, we'll just
Speaker 1: start driving roads or like you said, hiking short trails
Speaker 1: out locating at night, and then once we do locate them,
Speaker 1: we're leaving them alone. But um, it goes back that
Speaker 1: idea that like I want to be on an elk
Speaker 1: every morning, I actually want to be sitting on elk
Speaker 1: every midday, and I want to be hunting those elk
Speaker 1: at night. Like I don't want to be looking for
Speaker 1: elk during times that I can be killing elk. Um
Speaker 1: is kind of its kind of my strategy. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you're exactly right. And I'll even just add to the
Speaker 1: point a little bit more I've you know, had those
Speaker 1: times where late in the evening, I'm busting it to
Speaker 1: get back to the truck before it's dark. And you know,
Speaker 1: back to bringing up my wife. She thinks we're done
Speaker 1: for the day, and I have to mention to her, no,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm busting it so that we can get to
Speaker 1: the truck, get up here, and then I can hurry
Speaker 1: and run up this ridge and go glass because you know,
Speaker 1: it's evening time, everything's coming out to feed. It's dead
Speaker 1: where we're at, and I gotta have something figured out
Speaker 1: by tomorrow. You know, I'm not gonna know what to do.
Speaker 1: So just another little piece of that, you know, busted
Speaker 1: out of there, maybe, but use every remaining piece of
Speaker 1: daylight that you can to locate olk. That's a great tip,
Speaker 1: and you know it is I've said it many times,
Speaker 1: but you can't kill alk unless you got some elk located.
Speaker 1: So willing to do whatever it takes to locate those.
Speaker 1: Put in the effort, and you know, stay later, get
Speaker 1: up earlier. Um all is going to add your success.
Speaker 1: So we've we just touched a little bit. It was
Speaker 1: a great segue into you know, getting up super early,
Speaker 1: trying to be on elk right and you know first daylight,
Speaker 1: you know, hunting all the way till the end of
Speaker 1: the day. What's what's your strategy mid day? Do you
Speaker 1: hunt mid day? Do you sit on elk? You try
Speaker 1: to hunt betted elk? Um? Do you utilize that that
Speaker 1: you know we tend to tend to you tend to
Speaker 1: four timeline to to to harvest. I guess that tend
Speaker 1: to two time frame is about the only time during
Speaker 1: elk season that I have any patients at all. I
Speaker 1: feel like in the morning and in the evening, if
Speaker 1: you can't tell already, you know, I'm running around like
Speaker 1: a madman trying to either get on elk or get
Speaker 1: in perfect position that tend to to nothing's going on.
Speaker 1: That's the only time I have any patients. Um. You
Speaker 1: know I've heard bulls crack off midday just by staying
Speaker 1: in the woods. Um. Everybody else goes back to camp,
Speaker 1: Just stay in the woods. I mean, it's also about
Speaker 1: the only time I read a book too, So I'll
Speaker 1: take a book in there with me, read a book
Speaker 1: or whatever, and just be where I either lost those
Speaker 1: elk in the morning, um, or get to a spot
Speaker 1: where I think the elk could be you know, better
Speaker 1: at at and start making noise in the early afternoon.
Speaker 1: Just something again to be in position during during prime time. Um.
Speaker 1: And there's there's still plenty days to where I go
Speaker 1: back to camp. I mean, I guess as I've gotten older,
Speaker 1: I'm thirty one now, that never would have been the
Speaker 1: case probably, um. But I do enjoy the camping aspect too.
Speaker 1: And it's also you know, it's still vacation as well,
Speaker 1: So there's times I get caught up in you know,
Speaker 1: let's just go back to camp and let's have a
Speaker 1: beer and let's regroup because we've got nothing going and
Speaker 1: and I don't know that staying out midday is gonna
Speaker 1: help us. And sometimes those regroup times are important too
Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah, keeping that, you know, morale up, motivation up. Um.
Speaker 1: You know a quick quick story from last year, um,
Speaker 1: New Mexico super hot we had. This may even be exaggerating,
Speaker 1: you know, our acts to hut them in the morning,
Speaker 1: in half an hour at night to hunt them. Um.
Speaker 1: And and those midday like midday madness is what I
Speaker 1: call it, because I was going crazy just having to
Speaker 1: sit on bedded elk. And that was one of you know,
Speaker 1: similar to you, like you almost just have to you know.
Speaker 1: We just talked about doing everything we can to find
Speaker 1: elk and keep yourself in the game and kill Elk.
Speaker 1: But there were a few days where we're just like, man,
Speaker 1: we gotta go back to camp, you know, same thing,
Speaker 1: have a cold beer, kind of just you know, unwind
Speaker 1: because you know, the midday in some of these areas
Speaker 1: was certain Elk. It's just it's not gonna happen, um,
Speaker 1: you know. But there are times if if the bulls
Speaker 1: responsive or gives us bedded vehicles or you know, it's
Speaker 1: at least you know, you know, talking to us, we
Speaker 1: will go in if we can get the wind right, um,
Speaker 1: and try to kill him in the middle of the day. Um.
Speaker 1: But a lot of times these elk beds and spots
Speaker 1: that in my opinion, just too risky um to go
Speaker 1: in there in the middle of the day. I'd rather
Speaker 1: just wait, you know, until that evening or the following
Speaker 1: morning and without blowing him out of the country. A
Speaker 1: lot of times, I'm sure, like here, you notice they're
Speaker 1: bettered in like bowls, and I'm sure a lot of
Speaker 1: that has to do with shade, but it also has
Speaker 1: to do it. I mean, I know you've noticed it.
Speaker 1: Anytime you enter a bowl, the wind starts to shift
Speaker 1: every direction, and even though you've got maybe you know,
Speaker 1: wins you can count on when you start, as soon
Speaker 1: as you get in that bowl, it seems like I
Speaker 1: have to back out a lot of times. In Wyoming,
Speaker 1: where the wind blows constantly, you seem to just have
Speaker 1: shifty wins a lot of times in the middle of
Speaker 1: the day. Anyway. Yeah, they they've got that sense that
Speaker 1: they you know, I'm sure it's an eight and they
Speaker 1: do it on purpose, but yeah, they bed down where
Speaker 1: there's no way for you to approach because the wind
Speaker 1: and it's frustrating. His heck, but that's one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why they they they're there obviously. Um, all right,
Speaker 1: so you're in the middle of the season. We've kind
Speaker 1: of heard your answer a little bit. It sounds like
Speaker 1: maybe you go home. But when the elk aren't bugling,
Speaker 1: kind of what's your next move? If how are you
Speaker 1: gonna go find him? How are you going to approach him? Um?
Speaker 1: What's your strategy when they're just not talking? Um? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean, first I wouldn't like to go home, And
Speaker 1: there's sometimes you know, in the middle of a weekend
Speaker 1: or something where I wouldn't UM. It just comes down
Speaker 1: that aspect, just comes down to vacation days and what
Speaker 1: a guy can use. UM. But as far as elk
Speaker 1: elk not talking, I mean gone about finding them, I
Speaker 1: just end up reverting back to UM all my road
Speaker 1: bugling stuff, and then the patients factor that I guess
Speaker 1: we just kind of hit on. I'll try and either
Speaker 1: even if I don't sit them. I've had very little
Speaker 1: success sitting wallows, but I guess I've had zero success
Speaker 1: sitting wallows. I mean I've found wallows that are seemingly
Speaker 1: being used, sat on them and had nothing come in,
Speaker 1: or and seeing game camp picks where elk have come in,
Speaker 1: you know the day before at noon or two o'clock
Speaker 1: or whatever. But that's always I think that's what I
Speaker 1: privor reverted to last year was I walked streams, I
Speaker 1: found wallows, I sat wallows and it didn't work. I
Speaker 1: mean just I guess doing anything to to think outside
Speaker 1: the box and do something that I wasn't doing before
Speaker 1: UM without driving myself completely crazy. And and last year
Speaker 1: early September, I know I had one day where we
Speaker 1: all kind of in the high with seventy nine degrees,
Speaker 1: which is, you know, really hot for Wyoming mountains. And
Speaker 1: so I just knew that wallows were the best way
Speaker 1: to get it done, and I still couldn't figure anything out. So, um,
Speaker 1: you know, I guess to someone all up when I can't,
Speaker 1: when elk current bugle and it's tough out, I just
Speaker 1: try and do something different. Set wallows. Um, I'll sit
Speaker 1: on betting areas um as carefully as you can so
Speaker 1: that you're not doing more harm than good. Um staying
Speaker 1: in the woods and then being up earlier and later. Really, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm in the same boat. I've tried to hunt wallows.
Speaker 1: I'm very impatient, and so my whole thought is I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go there, I'm gonna be really patient. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: have a good comfortable seat. And I get there for
Speaker 1: about ten minutes and it's like this is you know,
Speaker 1: I'm either going to fall asleep or you know, the
Speaker 1: wind isn't doing what I want. And so similar to you,
Speaker 1: I've had absolutely zero success on wallows. Now, what I
Speaker 1: have did where wallows have you been been a contributor
Speaker 1: to my success? Is we just get near them and
Speaker 1: we can maybe hear a vehicle off of them, or
Speaker 1: and we're able to use that wallow to kind of
Speaker 1: jump jump start, And then when they all current bugling,
Speaker 1: I always kind of try to think, like where are they, um,
Speaker 1: you know, if we haven't seen him in the morning
Speaker 1: or in the evening, Like I'm looking, I'm looking at hillsides,
Speaker 1: I'm looking for um dark timber patches, maybe a little
Speaker 1: bit more mellow than than the rest of the train
Speaker 1: around it. UM two eighteen, Idaho. We we threw a
Speaker 1: dart of the map, ended up in a brand new unit,
Speaker 1: never been there. And one of the most frustrating things
Speaker 1: for me right off the bat is spotting an elk
Speaker 1: with your binoculars five yards away and then us just
Speaker 1: we we know they didn't see us. They just came
Speaker 1: out in an opening. We will vehicle, you'll hear them,
Speaker 1: or you'll you'll see them look at you and they
Speaker 1: won't make a peep. And you've already made vegles before
Speaker 1: that because you were just trying to sound check in area,
Speaker 1: and so we were kind of in in this um,
Speaker 1: you know, like what the heck there's And it wasn't
Speaker 1: just one, it was multiples like, I felt like we
Speaker 1: were in a very good spot with a good density
Speaker 1: of elk, but yet they just would not answer and
Speaker 1: and wouldn't answer. The next day they wouldn't answer. You know,
Speaker 1: they would answer a little bit better at night. But
Speaker 1: it made it very, very difficult, and you had almost
Speaker 1: zero confidence that you weren't walking by elk. And one
Speaker 1: of the things we did, UM dialed up on X
Speaker 1: whatever mapping you do. We looked for you know, steep
Speaker 1: you know, north facing stuff that was in the shade
Speaker 1: very you know, it was a hot, hot season, all
Speaker 1: the all the stuff above tree line was dried out,
Speaker 1: no food, so we just kind of felt like, oh, like,
Speaker 1: where are they gonna be? Where should we go check?
Speaker 1: And so what we did is we started you know,
Speaker 1: getting into those areas more early morning, which I would
Speaker 1: say those would be areas we avoid because we couldn't
Speaker 1: glass into them. And UM, by doing that, just looking
Speaker 1: for you know, thicker timber, better shade, you know, better
Speaker 1: betting on the north side. They weren't even utilizing the
Speaker 1: south outside for food or any of the open meadows.
Speaker 1: They were just kind of hanging out in the timber,
Speaker 1: surviving in there because you know, and that was one
Speaker 1: of those tips that we just kind of had to
Speaker 1: adapt from where the elk probably wanted to be, but
Speaker 1: due to the temperature um you know, and then not biggling,
Speaker 1: we just had to go get into their lap, you know,
Speaker 1: and go where they were and they were spending a
Speaker 1: lot of and once we found them, it was almost easy, like, hey,
Speaker 1: any any north facing slope with shade with some sort
Speaker 1: of bench or or bull is holding the elk and
Speaker 1: where they just ask you where that was that? Did
Speaker 1: that move make getting close to those elk on those
Speaker 1: kind of slopes, did that make them more responsive to calling?
Speaker 1: Or was that just basically a sneak in and here's
Speaker 1: your chance kind of stuff. No, I'm I'm not the
Speaker 1: most sneaky guy, Trent. So we used once we once
Speaker 1: once we found them, we would just kind of slowly
Speaker 1: turn the temperature up. We we've talked about on this
Speaker 1: podcast a lot before. Um we talked about turning the
Speaker 1: temperature up on elk because a lot of times when
Speaker 1: you get into these elk that weren't bigging a lot
Speaker 1: on their own, they're just now truly um, you know,
Speaker 1: hesitant to vehicle. They're not super fired up. They just
Speaker 1: kind of it's a whole hum. You know, I always
Speaker 1: think of it like or um if he was an elk,
Speaker 1: like you know, do to do? You know, they just
Speaker 1: they just they answer when they want. They don't really
Speaker 1: get aggressive. But we would slowly turn the pace up
Speaker 1: on him. We would you know, calcol maybe a little
Speaker 1: light vehicle, and then we'd slowly get more aggressive and
Speaker 1: we could eventually get that bull fired up. Um. On
Speaker 1: the fourth or fifth day, we were able to take
Speaker 1: an exceptional ball out of this unit, especially for this unit,
Speaker 1: and um, we just slow played him and we ended
Speaker 1: up they were they were feeding a little bit lower
Speaker 1: on the north slope and they were coming back up
Speaker 1: to their bed and we were able to get him.
Speaker 1: Um all sorts of ticked off, and you know, it's
Speaker 1: kind of some We got this one on video, really
Speaker 1: cool video. He kind of just finally gets so mad
Speaker 1: at us. He just like barrels through you know, an
Speaker 1: impenetrable wall of brush and we we get like a
Speaker 1: ten yard shot on him. But um, yeah, it was
Speaker 1: in that base in that day, that area had multiple
Speaker 1: heard bowls just screaming in it, and so it was
Speaker 1: just a you know, not our typical spot, not our
Speaker 1: typical strategy where we typically want to find elk. But um,
Speaker 1: you know they were being quiet. It was hot out
Speaker 1: and we just had to go find him. And you know,
Speaker 1: we had to go find where they were. Um, and
Speaker 1: and that's what worked for us. Uh. Next question for
Speaker 1: you you're out there? UM, what what sign you? I
Speaker 1: mean typically sounds like you're on elk in the morning
Speaker 1: or night. But what are you paying attention to? Why
Speaker 1: you I always preach you want to be an educated
Speaker 1: elk hunter. Um, I maybe over the top, but I'm
Speaker 1: paying attention to two tracks in the dust in front
Speaker 1: of me, you know, on the trail, or I'm paying
Speaker 1: attention to where multiple elk may have crossed the path
Speaker 1: I'm on. UM, you know scat rubs, fresh rubs, you
Speaker 1: know wallows that are mudded up, all of this stuff.
Speaker 1: I'm like constantly just building on uh and trying to
Speaker 1: put together a game plan. What are you looking for?
Speaker 1: What's most important? Why you're out there hunting to kind
Speaker 1: of um you draw the roadmap to your success. I
Speaker 1: guess similar to you. I mean the biggest thing is
Speaker 1: just looking for for freshness. Of course, UM, rubs you
Speaker 1: know tells me that there's bowls in the area that
Speaker 1: um are acting ready UM, And then I guess just
Speaker 1: to even go along with that, a little same thing
Speaker 1: with you know, lots of tracks or even even lack
Speaker 1: of human presence, I guess is a lot of what
Speaker 1: I look for inside. If I'm the only boots on
Speaker 1: the trail, or or that's walked in onto a point
Speaker 1: to call from, or anything like that, that's important to
Speaker 1: me too. If I'm seeing fresh elk sign um and
Speaker 1: I'm the only one that's been in there, then I know,
Speaker 1: at least I've got that spot cornered. And then the
Speaker 1: only other thing I guess I can really add to
Speaker 1: it is I'll look for like um close together peace spots.
Speaker 1: I know that elk are living in that timber when
Speaker 1: I'm in it, especially when things get tough. Is you know,
Speaker 1: walking through the timber, and you'll see even stuff that's
Speaker 1: relatively old a couple of days, you can see where
Speaker 1: elk of pete in the woods, and so UM, I
Speaker 1: guess the same as you. I guess I'm always being
Speaker 1: a tentative to but to to explain exactly what I'm
Speaker 1: looking for, I don't know if I can put my
Speaker 1: finger on that necessarily. Yeah, just just all of those
Speaker 1: general things. Um, but yeah, the boot presence is a
Speaker 1: great one that you know, we're also calculating into the
Speaker 1: area and and it kind of adds up to what
Speaker 1: I feel, you know, our future success in that area is.
Speaker 1: And um, yeah, something that that's very important. Um, if
Speaker 1: you can hunt an area that doesn't have other people, UM,
Speaker 1: always like my odds better and in those spots for
Speaker 1: sure versus you know, I would Me and Nate Simmons
Speaker 1: talked about this a little bit, like taking our odds
Speaker 1: in an area that it maybe has less elk but
Speaker 1: no people, versus an area with lots of people but
Speaker 1: lots of elk. I would almost always pick. I'll take
Speaker 1: less elk with you know, no people or or less people.
Speaker 1: And uh, you know that way, it's truly a game,
Speaker 1: you know, you versus yolk versus like you said, the
Speaker 1: gamesmanship of how often to beat people to certain areas
Speaker 1: or people making what I consider you know, unethical decisions
Speaker 1: are coming in the wrong way with the wind just
Speaker 1: to try to beat you. I'm not interested in and
Speaker 1: hunting that way, um, if at all possible. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: I I've I mean probably like most Elk counters, I
Speaker 1: branched out and found different spots. But it's the spot,
Speaker 1: and you probably have some of these two. This is
Speaker 1: the spot I grew up Elk cunning that you know,
Speaker 1: you learn every game trail in the place. You know
Speaker 1: where Elk go to bed, you know where that you
Speaker 1: know if they're not in this spot, there in this spot.
Speaker 1: And I spend the vast majority of my September, you know,
Speaker 1: within the same general area. And and just the knowledge
Speaker 1: that I have in a place is so hard to leave.
Speaker 1: And that's like when you were talking about, you know,
Speaker 1: when things get tough. Um, to revert back to that
Speaker 1: for just a second. I mean you can almost see
Speaker 1: the the woods leave. You know, people are leaving. It's tough.
Speaker 1: Everybody's everybody's leaving. Almost take that as a positive. You know,
Speaker 1: everybody's leaving and getting out of here. And this is
Speaker 1: my chance to have maybe a little bit more relaxed Elk.
Speaker 1: And although there were a lot of people here, now
Speaker 1: you know, maybe with this lack of presence we can
Speaker 1: get something done. Yep, I I like less people, um,
Speaker 1: and I don't. I don't. I've did this long enough
Speaker 1: found enough success that UM. I always try to remember
Speaker 1: it just takes one. You know, you can have the
Speaker 1: worst ten days of l hunting followed up by one
Speaker 1: good calling with you know, the bull of your lifetime. UM.
Speaker 1: And it's that simple. And so that's why it's easy,
Speaker 1: you know, seeing it happen and and come to fruition.
Speaker 1: You know, year after year or time after time that
Speaker 1: it's easy for me to be motivated just because I've
Speaker 1: seen it happen. But I think you know, everybody else
Speaker 1: out there that maybe hasn't found a whole lot of success. Um,
Speaker 1: it's easier to to you know, fold up camp and
Speaker 1: go home, or or to leave an area. And you know,
Speaker 1: as long as there's elk there, um, and you're hunting,
Speaker 1: there's always a chance. UM. So yeah, and then we've
Speaker 1: touched on this a little bit earlier trance. UM. You know,
Speaker 1: you don't always call UM, and so I want to
Speaker 1: just get a little bit you're calling strategy and then
Speaker 1: when you decide not to call, like when the scenario
Speaker 1: or what what, um, you know adds up to a
Speaker 1: decision where you're not going to call to a milk
Speaker 1: and you're gonna go spot in stock. I mean, I
Speaker 1: I guess to start, I realized I'm talking with Jason Phelps,
Speaker 1: who made his living making game calls. So, um, I
Speaker 1: I guess I grew up Well, hey, I grew up
Speaker 1: as a rifle hunter. I didn't start bow hunting milk
Speaker 1: until I was like seventeen years old, so I really
Speaker 1: didn't have any very many calling skills at all. Um,
Speaker 1: And it's just kind of you know, it comes as
Speaker 1: as you start bow hunting. But I always just kind
Speaker 1: of got in my head that, um, the best chance
Speaker 1: I had to kill a bull was when they didn't
Speaker 1: know you were there. And I still abide by that. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know a lot of the time I think if
Speaker 1: I don't make that bowl make a decision whether he's
Speaker 1: got to come and go, I think my chances are
Speaker 1: pretty high. A lot of times, you know, just in
Speaker 1: the woods, that's impossible to do. So I just feeled
Speaker 1: a situation out basically by that, like can I locate
Speaker 1: that bowl and sneak my way in and kill him?
Speaker 1: You know? Starting from there, all the way to doing
Speaker 1: is this dude in thick cover and I've got to
Speaker 1: get in there, and he's got cows and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: have to be rip a bugle in his face and
Speaker 1: get him fired up and have him come fight me.
Speaker 1: So I just let the terrain basically, you know, lead
Speaker 1: me to what I have to do. If I feel
Speaker 1: like I cannot get any closer, you know, hey, if
Speaker 1: I don't know where this bull is, I'm gonna have
Speaker 1: to make him make some noise and then be If
Speaker 1: I can't get any closer, you know, the terrain's wide
Speaker 1: open or or the timbers wide open or whatever, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to call to him, then that's how
Speaker 1: I'll do it that way. But that's about as difficult
Speaker 1: as I make my decision making. Yeah, So let me
Speaker 1: ask you a different question. Have you found that you
Speaker 1: know more your your more mature bulls have come, are you?
Speaker 1: You know, I've heard a lot of people, you know,
Speaker 1: Nate Simmons, um, you know, there's Chuck Adams, some of
Speaker 1: these guys that don't call as much as I do,
Speaker 1: you know, and some guys saying that they've killed their
Speaker 1: bigger bulls or they're better bulls. Have you found that
Speaker 1: you're able to not call in some of these bigger
Speaker 1: you know more um, I would say educated herd bulls
Speaker 1: or have you not found that to be the case,
Speaker 1: or have you or have you found more success spot
Speaker 1: in stalking these you know, larger, more mature bulls. Um.
Speaker 1: The first big bull I killed was purely spot in stock.
Speaker 1: I spotted him an open terrain and stocked in there.
Speaker 1: But probably the most memorable I've killed six by seven
Speaker 1: was a mix and I I kinda I learned this
Speaker 1: ball through screwing up on him basically for three years
Speaker 1: straight with a bow and a rifle. I mean, he
Speaker 1: was in, like we've mentioned, a heavily hunted unit, but
Speaker 1: he was secretive when he needed to be and knew
Speaker 1: how to how to survive. So I called that bull
Speaker 1: in and and just I mean, this is just a
Speaker 1: case where I learned one elk, and this one elk
Speaker 1: has helped me so tremendously on learning everything as a whole,
Speaker 1: as far as hunting other bulls. But called him in,
Speaker 1: and just immediately could see the demeanor about how this
Speaker 1: elk acted when I didn't call. You know, he was
Speaker 1: kind of happy, go lucky and bugling at will. And
Speaker 1: then when I called, they'd shut up and he'd sneak
Speaker 1: in for a look. And I had him sneak in
Speaker 1: like two or three different times. And so I guess
Speaker 1: just as the day's hunting and progressed, I got quieter
Speaker 1: on my end. I learned him more and more, and
Speaker 1: he had a relatively big hair macows and and so
Speaker 1: I think a lot of how I approach l cutting
Speaker 1: now is just due to that bowl and the decisions
Speaker 1: I made and watching him respond to my calling. Um,
Speaker 1: and then ultimately kind of doing a mix. I guess
Speaker 1: as far as that bull's concerns, I did call to
Speaker 1: him quite regularly to get him to answer me, and
Speaker 1: I did call him in a couple of times, but
Speaker 1: you know, the shooting opportunity just never presented itself. And then, um,
Speaker 1: I guess, just a few other bulls scattered through the years,
Speaker 1: my calls were more based on timing than they were
Speaker 1: anything else. I mean, I know, in one instance, um,
Speaker 1: I heard a bull bugling in the bottom and all
Speaker 1: I did was let out a couple of cow calls
Speaker 1: he and he crashed right in and and I killed
Speaker 1: him at nineteen yards. And you know, that's one of
Speaker 1: those days where you think elk cutting is the easiest
Speaker 1: thing you've ever done, where the entire year that never happened. Well,
Speaker 1: as I'm you know, kind of tracking this bull around
Speaker 1: and he's alone. I think it was September twenty one,
Speaker 1: snow on the ground. I couldn't figure out why this
Speaker 1: bull was by himself. I ran into fresh cow and
Speaker 1: calf tracks, and what I gat you know, what I
Speaker 1: kind of put together in my mind was those elk
Speaker 1: were down there feeding the cow and calf took off
Speaker 1: up the mountain, and we're ahead of this bowl, and
Speaker 1: I just happened to interject myself right in the middle,
Speaker 1: let out some perfectly time calls, and he came in
Speaker 1: and you know, died at my arrow. So I guess,
Speaker 1: you know, to sum it all up, it's it's always
Speaker 1: a mix for me. I'll spot and stock him what
Speaker 1: I need to and and and call to him what
Speaker 1: I need to as well. Yeah, and and why I
Speaker 1: like to go out there and call. Um, I'm not
Speaker 1: above you know, if a certain bull in a certain
Speaker 1: area allows me to spot and stock, I'm not above
Speaker 1: you know, just doing what's needed. There are times and
Speaker 1: you have to make that decision for yourself. But um,
Speaker 1: I'd much rather than come in screaming, but also recognize
Speaker 1: there's a lot of good elk hunters, you know, Brian Barney,
Speaker 1: you know, said there's a up of them that that
Speaker 1: they just don't like to touch calls for the same
Speaker 1: thing that you said, they would rather not ever let
Speaker 1: that bowl know that there, you know, they exist or
Speaker 1: there on the ground. And I use a lot of
Speaker 1: that all up until the point where we do call,
Speaker 1: you know, we kind of call shock and awe where
Speaker 1: that bowl hopefully we haven't called for the last twenty
Speaker 1: thirty minutes, forty hour or whatever it may be. Or
Speaker 1: ideally if we don't need to call, it even locate
Speaker 1: and we won't make a peep until we're you know,
Speaker 1: forty fifty yards from them, and then we just hammer
Speaker 1: them with the bugle. If the situation allows. Now, if
Speaker 1: we can spot in stock, we might not ever make
Speaker 1: a call and continue on. So um, I think the
Speaker 1: the ability to remain you know, uh silent and and
Speaker 1: not put you know, make that bowl aware of your
Speaker 1: your your location or your existence is to our advantage
Speaker 1: no matter what we're hunting, no matter what approach we're
Speaker 1: gonna take. Yeah, and there could be ways where you know,
Speaker 1: there's there's multiple ways to to kill an elk when
Speaker 1: when everything's right, and I think it just comes down
Speaker 1: to what you have confidence in. If me and you
Speaker 1: were hutting the same bowl, you know, I might choose
Speaker 1: to just stuck in where you might choose to start
Speaker 1: your playbook at him. And that's just you know, the
Speaker 1: difference between two guys hunting elk. And you've got to
Speaker 1: do what you're what you're confident in in the end,
Speaker 1: whatever you think is going to give you the best
Speaker 1: chance of success. Yep, yep. Develop your own strategy, your
Speaker 1: own skill set, what you're confident in, and and and
Speaker 1: rock that. In closing, trying if you had one tip
Speaker 1: to help l hunters be successful this year, what would
Speaker 1: it be? I think my tip is mostly I guess
Speaker 1: a mental tip, and that just because I've seen it
Speaker 1: go the other way so many times and to try
Speaker 1: and harness this whole the el cunning success is tough,
Speaker 1: and so I just think if if a person, especially
Speaker 1: if they're new at L cutting, if you can get
Speaker 1: if you can gain confidence from the things that this
Speaker 1: is necessarily didn't go your way. So the line between
Speaker 1: you know, when you have that close encounter, the line
Speaker 1: between success and not being successful is so thin. Sometimes
Speaker 1: it's you know, you set up barely wrong. Sometimes you
Speaker 1: could have done everything right and the bowl just you know,
Speaker 1: just came in at at the wrong spot. Uh. But
Speaker 1: just if you're able to just take a step back
Speaker 1: that stuff that's frustrating where you think maybe that was
Speaker 1: your opportunity and that was your chance and you let
Speaker 1: it get away. If you can harness that and use
Speaker 1: that to gain success or gain confidence and excuse me,
Speaker 1: you're gonna be a whole lot better elk hunter because
Speaker 1: of it. If you can figure out, you know, look
Speaker 1: back on that and tweak your set up a little bit,
Speaker 1: figure out what you need to do to kill that elk.
Speaker 1: But take that, you know, memory as as a positive
Speaker 1: and not a negative. I think that you know, that helps.
Speaker 1: That helps me out when I kind of figured out
Speaker 1: to do that, and I think it will other people too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a great tip and and something that that I
Speaker 1: did as well. I really appreciate having you on here,
Speaker 1: trent Um. It's been a great com station. Good luck
Speaker 1: this fall, and as always appreciate talking el hunting with you.
Speaker 1: Thanks Jason. I hope I hope people can get out
Speaker 1: of this. I hope I didn't stutter too much, and
Speaker 1: I hope it was enjoyable for everybody to listen. I
Speaker 1: know you're you're you're good. We appreciate having you, Trent,
Speaker 1: and uh, well, we'll catch up later. Thank you. M
Speaker 1: hm hm