1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election. 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade 5 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 2: the studio ad staff give you, guys, the best independent coverage. 6 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 3: That is possible. 7 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means 8 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that, 9 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 2: let's get to the show. 10 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 4: Good morning, and welcome to Counterpoints. As you can see 11 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 4: that we're building out the studio right now, so here 12 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 4: we are working from home. 13 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 3: Emily, how you doing this week? 14 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 5: Good? 15 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 6: I'm in pajama pants, not just kidding, but it's great 16 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 6: to have you back. 17 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 7: Ryan. 18 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 6: It was a blast to have Crystal here, but we. 19 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 7: Missed you for sure. 20 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 4: Lady's Day seemed like a great show. The pro shows 21 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 4: have been fun. But yes, it's good to get back 22 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 4: on track here today. We've got two new people jumping 23 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 4: into the presidential election. We've got Chris Christy and Mike Pence. 24 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 4: We're going to talk about that explosive news out of Ukraine. 25 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 4: Also the PGA basically getting taken over by the Saudis. 26 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 4: We can go into the details of this shocking deal 27 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 4: that emerged yesterday. 28 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:16,800 Speaker 3: Emily. What else we got. 29 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 6: Today, Well, Tucker Carlson's back, so we're going to talk 30 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 6: about that as as part of the Ukraine blocks, some 31 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 6: interesting stuff going on there. 32 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 7: We're also talking. 33 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 6: About AI deep fakes, the twenty twenty four election, which 34 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 6: does feel like the twenty twenty four election has officially 35 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 6: kicked off, and so, of course so are concerns about 36 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 6: generative AI and the election, but Europe is handling them 37 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 6: in a different way than we probably will, and so 38 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 6: we're going to talk about that also, Ryan, you're going 39 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 6: to be talking a little bit about Julian Nassan. I'm 40 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 6: going to be talking a little bit about FBI and 41 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 6: the whistleblower, trying to break that down. And we have 42 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 6: a huge guest, Ryan, because you scored a heck of 43 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 6: an interview. 44 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, we're gonna have an interview later in the show 45 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 4: with Imran Khan, who's the populist former Prime Minister of 46 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 4: Pakistan who is basically currently surrounded in his home in Lahore. 47 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 4: His party has been the target of one of the 48 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 4: most incredible kind of crackdowns that you could imagine since 49 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 4: he was ousted in April twenty twenty two. He's he's 50 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 4: going to talk about what he thinks the US role 51 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 4: was in his ouster, what he thinks of the US 52 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 4: ought to be doing. Now, stand up for rule of 53 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 4: law and democracy. Stick around for that for sure. But 54 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 4: to startles, let's play our boy. 55 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 3: Chris Christie. 56 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 4: This is the former New Jersey governor announcing that he's 57 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 4: jumping into the twenty twenty four race for the Republican nomination. 58 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 3: Let me tell you something, everybody. 59 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 8: The grift from this family is breathtaking. It's breathtaking. Jared 60 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 8: Kushner and Ivanka Kushner walk out of the White House 61 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 8: and months later get two billion dollars from the Saudis. 62 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 8: Two billion dollars from the Saudis. You think it's because 63 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 8: he's some kind of investing genius or do you think 64 00:02:58,160 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 8: it's because he was sitting next to the president. If 65 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 8: it stays for four years too, it favors for the Saudis. 66 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:08,399 Speaker 8: That's your money, that's your money. He stole and gave 67 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 8: it to his family. You know what, That makes us 68 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 8: a ban out of republic. That's what makes us so 69 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 8: he may get thirty percent again I'm not sure. Maybe 70 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 8: he'll get more, maybe he'll get less. But let me 71 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 8: tell you what he'll know in twenty twenty four that 72 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 8: he had no idea of in twenty sixteen. He's in 73 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:27,679 Speaker 8: for a fight to get it. 74 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 7: It's like a high school theater teacher. 75 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 4: But on the substance, he's not wrong about any of that. 76 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 4: And you and you and I have talked about this, 77 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 4: and I know you agree on those points. That the 78 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 4: that the level of grift represented by that two billion 79 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 4: dollar payment from the Saudis to the Kushners immediately after 80 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 4: leaving the White House is absolutely extraordinary. Like in the 81 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 4: realm of foreign policy corruption, I can't think of anything 82 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 4: bigger than that. You know, doesn't mean that smaller levels 83 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 4: of corruption from Mania or from Ukrainian gas companies or 84 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 4: whatever are less, you know, are not themselves evidence of corruption, 85 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 4: but good lord, two billion dollars to a family that 86 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 4: is trying to get back into the White House just incredible. 87 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's interesting. I know, we have a lot 88 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 6: of clips, so we keep it moving. But just a 89 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 6: quick thought is that it's interesting, particularly because no other 90 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 6: Republican candidate goes after Trump on that question of corruption. 91 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 6: They watched everyone else basically try it in twenty fifteen 92 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 6: and twenty sixteen, and so they're hesitant to wade back 93 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 6: into those waters. They don't want to offend Trump suppurters 94 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 6: whose votes they need, and they also know it's kind 95 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 6: of baked into the Trump cake. But as unseerious I 96 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 6: think of a candidacy as Chris Christie's is that's one 97 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 6: of the more interesting things. If this is a Kamakazi 98 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 6: mission for Chris Christi to exact vengeance on Donald Trump 99 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 6: and take him down. I mean, the difference between what 100 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,359 Speaker 6: happened in twenty fifteen and twenty sixteen is that he 101 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 6: wasn't president yet and now this is actually like a 102 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 6: grift that happened as president of the United States who 103 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 6: can't paign to drain the swamp? Do I think it's 104 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,840 Speaker 6: a fatal bloat, Not even close. But I do think 105 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 6: it's interesting to see Trump actually to see him actually 106 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 6: talk about that. 107 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 4: And for people who don't know the backstory, it's not 108 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 4: as if Chris Christy has some unique level of purity 109 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 4: on this question. 110 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 3: Here. 111 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 4: It's that he prosecuted Jared Kushner's father and Jared Kushner 112 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,239 Speaker 4: paid him back by making sure that Chris Christie's life 113 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 4: in the Trump orbit was miserable, blocking him from appointments 114 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 4: and otherwise undermining him during the Trump presidency. And so 115 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 4: Christy has always had a feud with Jared Kushner. And 116 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 4: so that's where this is coming from, not any kind 117 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 4: of innate kind of disgust that he might have at 118 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 4: how MBS spends his bribe money. 119 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, right, And it's not like Chris Christy really has 120 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 6: a leg to stand on when it comes today either. 121 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 6: So let's roll the next clip from again. This was 122 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 6: Chris Christie's Tuesday night presidential announcement in New Hampshire. 123 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 8: Here he is again, beware of the leader in this 124 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 8: country you have had the leadership to who has never 125 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,920 Speaker 8: made made a mistake, who has never done anything wrong, 126 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 8: But when something goes wrong, it's always someone else's fault, 127 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 8: and who has never lost I've lost you. People did 128 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 8: that to me in twenty sixteen. 129 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 3: That's good, right, he done funny. 130 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 6: He also referred to Trump as a quote lonely, self consumed, 131 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 6: self serving mirror hog and said, quote, we can't dismiss 132 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 6: the question of character anymore, everybody. If we do we 133 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 6: get what we deserve, and an advisor to the campaign 134 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 6: told Mike Allen of Axios that Christie's campaign will emphasize 135 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 6: authenticity and quote be willing to admit mistakes, be accountable, 136 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 6: and share why he keeps showing up even when it 137 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 6: seems hard. Obviously for somebody now running on authenticity against 138 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 6: corruption and grift, he might have some Bridgegate explaining to 139 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 6: do if anybody really cared about his candidacy. 140 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, indeed, but it probably doesn't get to that point. 141 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 4: Trump did not go with the Bridgegate rebuttal, let's play 142 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 4: the response from the front runner for the Republican nomination 143 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 4: to the entry of Chris Christy into the race's role. 144 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 8: At and it was about our country and its future, 145 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 8: and I wondered what our choice was going to be. 146 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 8: We're going to be small or are we going to 147 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 8: be big? 148 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 6: Okay, that's the president of the former president of the 149 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 6: United States, just winning the meme more left and right. 150 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 6: A lot of people online did pick up on Christy 151 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 6: repeatedly using the words small. 152 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 7: It seemed intentional. 153 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 6: I thought the entire rollout from Christy was just sort 154 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 6: of cringe and more than I expected it to because 155 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 6: more than I expected it to be because he actually 156 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 6: when he first became governor of New Jersey, he clearly 157 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 6: had some political talent. And I mean that in the 158 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 6: sense of like political the political theater. He wasn't bad 159 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 6: at it, you know, he would He really was one 160 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 6: of the first people to maximize the power of a 161 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 6: viral clip. Uh at the time it was probably like 162 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 6: people pinging in around on list serves, but of him 163 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 6: just like laying into teachers unions. It was, you know, 164 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 6: the political theater part wasn't that bad. This feels like 165 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 6: you know, an eighties hair metal band trying to you know, 166 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 6: stay alive and play all the hits for you know, 167 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 6: a big boomer concert crowd, because it just it's like 168 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 6: so badly done. The you know, when he's getting in 169 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 6: people's faces and walking over to them, it felt like, yeah, 170 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 6: middle school theater. 171 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 5: Yeah. 172 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 4: I do think of him during his time as New 173 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 4: Jersey governor as sort of like a proto Trump. Like 174 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 4: he he didn't he didn't necessarily see Trump coming, but 175 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 4: he understood that that's where the energy of the Republican 176 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 4: Party was going, and so he and he so he 177 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 4: fed them that type of spectacle where he was, you know, attacking, 178 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 4: attacking the media, and attacking his political enemies without any 179 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 4: type of headge, any efforts to you know, appear like 180 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 4: a you know, a reasonable center who's like going to 181 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 4: sit down with the teachers unions and going to work 182 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 4: something out. You know, he famously would just yell at 183 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 4: the teachers unions, and you know, if he was fortunate 184 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 4: enough from his perspective to have a teacher come and 185 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 4: confront him, he delighted in that. And then and he 186 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 4: would grab the cameras and he would and he would 187 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 4: go after them, and the Republican base then would would 188 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 4: celebrate that. But I feel like there's something that Christy 189 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 4: can't match when Trump came and kind of topped a 190 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 4: proto Trump. 191 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,959 Speaker 3: Like, if you're proto Trump and you meet Trump. 192 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 4: Himself, it's very difficult for you to kind of up 193 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 4: your game to a level that is going to get 194 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 4: the same reaction out of the crowd then you can 195 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 4: with the headline act. 196 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 6: I think that's a really good point, and there's no 197 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 6: reason that it'll be different from twenty sixteen, I don't think, 198 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 6: except for one interesting perhaps development, which is that Chris 199 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 6: Christie some indications point to him really being on a 200 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 6: Kamakazi mission and saying, you know, I know my political 201 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 6: future is in the rear view mirror, and what I 202 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 6: want to do is take down Donald Trump. As opposed 203 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 6: to in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen, the guy clearly wanted 204 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 6: to work in the White House. He wanted to be 205 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 6: a cabinet officially, want to be chief of staff. He 206 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 6: wanted a major appointment, so he couldn't go full Kamakazi 207 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 6: and totally run against Trump. In fact, what he did 208 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 6: was basically Kamakazi the rest of the Republican field and 209 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,559 Speaker 6: go after Marco Rubio. And this is you know, Chris 210 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 6: Christy knowing he really had no chance. I think that 211 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:37,359 Speaker 6: Rubio debate moment that people remember was in New Hampshire, 212 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 6: and Christy is sort of uniquely suited to the New 213 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,839 Speaker 6: Hampshire audience, at least in his performance. I don't know 214 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 6: if actually policy wise, he's probably not the best fit, 215 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 6: but he is somebody who's like kind of an unorthodox 216 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 6: coastal establishment Republican that also has this brash populist energy 217 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 6: but no populist policy. Is he's just a weird candidate. 218 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 7: In twenty twenty three. 219 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 6: But and I don't think any of his Kamakazi plans 220 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 6: seem to be what actually will go after Trump. But 221 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 6: to the point about the Kushners, nobody else is talking 222 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 6: about that, so I say, bring it on. 223 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 3: Oh for sure. 224 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 4: I actually think Christy gets a little bit too much 225 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 4: credit for that debate performance, because all he did was 226 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 4: point out that Marco Rubio had said the same grammatically 227 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,559 Speaker 4: awkward line, you know, three times within like a ninety 228 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:34,439 Speaker 4: second window that I think the entire audience recognized. Also, 229 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 4: and all Christy had to do is kind of just 230 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 4: point to the guy tripping over his own shoelaces, and 231 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 4: people like, Wow, what a knockout blow from Christy. It's like, no, 232 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 4: the guy just the guy just fell over on his face. 233 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 6: I agree. 234 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 4: But if he's going to do a Kamakazi mission, the 235 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 4: question is who does that serve, Because, like you said, 236 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 4: he kamakazi himself through the primary electorate, serving Trump, hoping 237 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 4: that he would, you know, could get some type of 238 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 4: position within that administry. Now, maybe it's a CNN contributor, 239 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 4: some some type of institution or audience that will celebrate 240 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,079 Speaker 4: a kama Kaze mission in the Republican primary. But speaking 241 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 4: of Kamakazi missions, I think we might have another fighter 242 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 4: in the air who is similarly kind of nose diving 243 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 4: toward a Trump battleship. And that's that's Mike Pence, who, 244 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 4: you know, after breaking with Trump a number of times, 245 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 4: we put up I think a two. Here Pence is 246 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 4: filing the paperwork news that I was actually. 247 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:34,439 Speaker 3: Shocked to see. 248 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 4: I think was broken by the Messenger, which is that 249 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 4: new kind of Hill knockoff news outlet. A couple days 250 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 4: ago they announced that he'd be jumping into the race 251 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 4: within two weeks. He has filed the paperwork to run. 252 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 4: What's what's your read on what kind of moment this 253 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 4: is for Mike Pence. 254 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, it's it's interesting. So it felt to me like 255 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 6: this last week, the Joni Ernst Rost and Ride event 256 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 6: out in Iowa was the kind of unofficial kickoff to 257 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 6: the twenty twenty four presidential primary season. 258 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 7: And it's hard to always know. 259 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 6: It's like the you know quote about pornography, right, like, 260 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 6: you know what, when you see it, that's what it 261 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 6: is about. That's what it is with the primary season. 262 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 6: And I feel like it's actually like, you know, you 263 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 6: hear people I'm going to announce, they launched their pack, 264 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 6: they file their paperwork. But with Christy and Pence making 265 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,079 Speaker 6: their announcements this week, Pence is making his official announcement today. 266 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 6: He's already rolled out a video. He's going to be 267 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,199 Speaker 6: doing a CNN town hall. It feels like now it's 268 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 6: really happening. They're you know, Rona Santisus been in Iowa, 269 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 6: South Carolina, New Hampshire, Nikki Haley, Tim Scott, the Hesa Hutchinson. 270 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 6: I don't know why I felt compelsive you mentioned him there, 271 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 6: but it does really seem like it's in full swing now, 272 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 6: and with Pence entering this week, it's interesting. 273 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 7: In his announcement video, he. 274 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 6: Said, quote, I'll always be proud of the progress we 275 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:03,239 Speaker 6: made together, referring to try for a stronger, more prosperous America. 276 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 6: But different times call for different leadership. I have faith 277 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 6: God is not done with America yet. So you see 278 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 6: how he his Trump's strategy, his Trump messaging strategy say, 279 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,439 Speaker 6: I was proud of the administration. Now we're in a 280 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 6: different time, need a different guy. And it's definitely not 281 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 6: the Christie strategy. It may or may not be similar 282 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 6: to the DeSantis strategy. We still don't really know. That's 283 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 6: a little preview of how Mike Pence plans to deal 284 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 6: with it. I will say for all of the people 285 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 6: just quickly wondering why on earth is Mike Pence getting 286 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 6: into the race? 287 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 7: Two things. 288 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 6: Ben Dominich made a really good point, which is that 289 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 6: you know, take Mike Pence seriously when he says he 290 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 6: prayed about it and that his faith is really is 291 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 6: really real. And if he believes that through prayer he 292 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 6: came to the decision he should run, then that's probably 293 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 6: why he's running. And secondly, I was talking on Megan 294 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 6: Kelly show about this, like these candidates are old, Trump 295 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,760 Speaker 6: and Biden are old. There is an element of a 296 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 6: totally unexpected potential situation that could unfold in a year 297 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 6: and then things would be why the race would just 298 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 6: be blown essentially wide open if something were to happen 299 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 6: health wise, and then you're in the race and you 300 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 6: have a real shot at becoming president if everything is 301 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 6: suddenly blown open. 302 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 4: And there are criminal cases underway that that'll matter too. 303 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 4: And but before we move on to the next segment, 304 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 4: I did want to ask you one question. I noticed 305 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 4: that at least one high profile Republican on Twitter recently 306 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 4: was talking about how excited they were about RFK Junior's 307 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 4: Twitter spaces, and I've seen some other kind of populist 308 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 4: righte enthusiasm around r f K Junior. So I'm curious, 309 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 4: from your perspective, what would happen if he had jumped 310 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 4: in the Republican primary instead. Do you think his numbers 311 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 4: would be, you know, lesser, equal, or greater than in 312 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 4: the Democratic primary. 313 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 6: I would say lesser. I think the abortion issue would 314 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 6: be a real one. I think he would have to 315 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 6: talk a whole lot more about like the kind of 316 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 6: cultural issues that he sort of steered clear and steered 317 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 6: clear of, because right now he's trying to draw contrast 318 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 6: with Biden, and that's really interesting. I don't know, but 319 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 6: I think there's something also very alluring to a lot 320 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 6: of people on the right about the sort of Democratic 321 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 6: candidate who's running. I mean, that was a whole Trump thing, 322 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 6: is that he was trying to appeal to these sort 323 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 6: of old school russ Belt Democrats and he pulled a 324 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 6: lot of them over. So I think there's something very 325 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 6: alluring about that too. I think that's probably why there 326 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 6: are a lot of people on the right that are like, 327 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 6: oh rfa, he's talking about being like a sixties democrat, 328 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:43,119 Speaker 6: a Kennedy Democrat. 329 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 7: So that's probably part of it from my perspective. 330 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 3: Gotcha, all right? Sounds sounds right to me. 331 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 4: The Washing Post is out with new reporting based on 332 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 4: the Discord leaks, that the Ukrainians had actually been plotting 333 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 4: to blow up the North Stream pipeline, and that the 334 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 4: United States learned about this conspiracy months before the pipeline 335 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 4: was actually blown up, as came from a human source. 336 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 4: Tucker Carlson came back to Twitter with his show What's 337 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 4: It Called? Emily Tucker on Twitter, Twitter, Tucker Twitter on 338 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 4: Tucker Tucker on Twitter. He's back with it was his 339 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 4: first segment that he posted last night, and he dipped 340 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 4: into this news roll that here. 341 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 1: No one who's paid to cover these things seem to 342 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 1: entertain even the possibility it could have been the Ukrainians 343 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: who did it. No chance of that. Ukraine, as you 344 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: may have heard, is led by a man called Zelenski, 345 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: and we can say for a dead certain fact that 346 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: he was not involved. 347 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 3: He couldn't have been. 348 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,719 Speaker 1: Zelensky is too decent for terrorism now you see him 349 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: on television. That's true, you might form a different impression, 350 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: sweaty and rat like a comedian turned oligarch, a persecutor 351 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: of Christians, a friend of black Rock. But don't believe 352 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: your own eyes. Actually, miss Zelensky is a very good man, 353 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: the best really. As George W. Bush once noted, he 354 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: is our generation's Winston Churchill. Of all the people in 355 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: the world, our shifty, dead eyed Ukrainian friend in the 356 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: tracksuit is uniquely incapable of blowing up a dam well. 357 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: A former Air Force officer who worked for years in 358 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: military intelligence came forward as a whistleblower to reveal that 359 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: the US government has physical evidence of crashed non human 360 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: made aircraft, as well as the bodies of the pilots 361 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 1: who flew those aircraft. The Pentagon has spent decades studying 362 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 1: these otherworldly remains in order to build more technologically advanced 363 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 1: weapons systems. Okay, that's what the former intel officer revealed, 364 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,719 Speaker 1: and it was clear he was telling the truth. In 365 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: other words, UFOs are actually real, and apparently so is 366 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: extraterrestrial life. Now we know in a normal country this 367 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 1: news would qualify as a bombshell. The story of the 368 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: millennium in our country, it doesn't. 369 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 6: And I think what's really interesting there is you see 370 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 6: him tying this extended argument about the Washington Post discordly 371 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 6: reporting on Nordstream, and as Soccer points out, we can 372 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 6: put up b three here. Soccer points out, you look 373 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 6: at that and you see that we were basically our 374 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 6: government knows all of the Sager says, let's this think 375 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 6: and the Biden admin had intel that Ukraine had a 376 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 6: plot to blow up Nordstream and still lied. Slash tried 377 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 6: to insinuate that Russia was responsible in real time. So 378 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 6: we've had months of deception basically from our government at 379 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 6: this point. And Tucker then ties that his monologue starts 380 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 6: with Ukraine and ends on UFOs. It's about ten minutes long. 381 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 6: It's on Twitter if folks want to check the whole 382 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:44,400 Speaker 6: thing out, and he has a line where he says, 383 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 6: even a Yak herder in Tajikistan knows who blew up 384 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 6: the Nordstream pipeline. And he's drawing contrast between American audiences 385 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 6: and everyone else in the world. He's like, the American 386 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 6: people might be the least informed in the world at 387 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 6: this point, because when you look at how our media 388 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 6: react to just like an incredible revelation about alien life 389 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:06,479 Speaker 6: forms in our government, when you look at how our 390 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 6: media reacts with a kind of a shrug as our 391 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 6: presidential administration initially was really deceptive. In fact, they actually 392 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 6: said it was a crazy conspiracy theory at first, in 393 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 6: an echo of the lab leak narrative. It was a 394 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 6: crazy conspiracy theory that Ukraine may have had anything to. 395 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 7: Do with this. 396 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 6: So I thought it was a pretty interesting piece of 397 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 6: argumentation from Tucker. 398 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 7: I thought the show looked good. 399 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 4: What'd you think, Ryan, Yeah, So, I mean, let's let's 400 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 4: take the Ukrainian piece first. This is this is fascinating 401 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 4: reporting coming out of these these Discord leaks, And it's 402 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 4: interesting that the Washington Posts kind of held back the 403 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 4: country that initially discovered this intel and then shared it 404 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 4: with the United States. The United States then shared it 405 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 4: with its its German partners and others, because if it's 406 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 4: in the Discord leagues, presumably you would think that other 407 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 4: foreign intelligence operations, including the Russians, already have access to it. 408 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 4: So you can kind of withhold the country's name from 409 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 4: the public. But I'm not sure what good that's doing, 410 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 4: you know from a from a counter intelligence perspective. But 411 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 4: what's interesting is that they are there are some real 412 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 4: specific details about that. They list about this Ukrainian operation. 413 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 4: They say they're going to be kind of six operatives. 414 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 4: They're going to rent They're going to rent a yacht 415 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 4: uh and then they're going to go out and use 416 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 4: submersibles to blow it up. Now, according to the German 417 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 4: investigative reporting, it was there were six people who rented 418 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 4: a yacht uh and they they dove, which is I 419 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 4: don't know if that's what they mean by submersibles. There 420 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 4: was there was a reference to helium being used by 421 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 4: both because it's such a deep dive that you need 422 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 4: you know, helium to maintain clarity and to keep keep 423 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 4: you safe at the that that level of depth. 424 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 3: And so the idea the end. Oh. 425 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 4: They also said that they were going to do it 426 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 4: around is June operation uh, where there were there were 427 00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 4: you know, a naval operation. 428 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 3: Uh. So that didn't happen. 429 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,919 Speaker 4: There was some speculation in the article that they learned 430 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 4: that their operation had been compromised and had been had 431 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 4: been leaked, and so they postponed but these but it 432 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 4: was still done right around a giant naval operation. So 433 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:19,400 Speaker 4: basically all the details that the intelligence community had before 434 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 4: the operation was carried out actually panned out. 435 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 3: One point. 436 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 4: Don't'm curious for your take on this. This would undercut 437 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 4: Seymour Hirsch's reporting in the sense that he reported that 438 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 4: it was this, you know, this crew of Americans out 439 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:36,720 Speaker 4: of you know, working out of this gutless school and 440 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 4: the Gulf uh that carried it out. My guess would 441 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 4: be what Hirsch learned about was a plan that was 442 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 4: trained for but ultimately not carried out, and instead this 443 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 4: Ukrainian operation was carried out. And I'm curious what you 444 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 4: think about the way that this conflicts a with everything 445 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 4: the intelligence community has said publicly. You know, they had 446 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 4: that leak to the New York Times to try to 447 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 4: counter Seymour Hirsch, but it also does conflict with Hirsch's reporting. 448 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 7: That's an interesting point. 449 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 6: I hadn't thought about it, and folks can watch our 450 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 6: whole interview with Seymour Hrsch from shortly after that bombshell 451 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:18,400 Speaker 6: was published not too long ago. But I've always thought 452 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 6: with his report that it may be through the telephone 453 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 6: chain official affiliations are getting confused or are getting intentionally 454 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 6: obfuscated and hard to totally pin down, which I think 455 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 6: gets us to Obviously, one of the biggest problems with 456 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 6: this in power war is that we don't know what 457 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:45,919 Speaker 6: our country is involvement in operations like nord Stream, like 458 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 6: anything that's being used inside of Russia in Moscow, regardless 459 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 6: of what our government says. It's hard to trust what 460 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 6: our government says. They don't seem to know the extent 461 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 6: to which our personnel and our equipment is being used. 462 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 6: So and things that we've sold Ukraine are being used. 463 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 6: So I've always wondered if there was more, if there 464 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 6: were just like affiliations that were already loose when you're 465 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 6: using maybe mercenaries, and it's unclear where the money, the support, 466 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 6: or the go ahead was given. 467 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 7: I don't know. I think maybe that's possibly an explanation. 468 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,360 Speaker 4: And as as for Tucker's show, I think he's right 469 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 4: that it's wild that there isn't kind of wall to 470 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:33,199 Speaker 4: wall coverage of this whistleblower intelligence community allegation that the 471 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 4: US has in its pre in its possession basically alien 472 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 4: aircraft like and some of the reports, some of the reporting, 473 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 4: you know, seems to confirm that like that, that to 474 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 4: me is shocking, Like that is something that I would 475 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 4: expect we would be covering wall to wall on his 476 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 4: on his show itself, just as a person who's involved 477 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 4: in progressive media. It's it's intimidating. You know how dominant 478 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 4: the right is getting when it comes to the media ecosystem. 479 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 4: How many views does this sucker have by now? Probably 480 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 4: fifty million or maybe far more than that. This that 481 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 4: comes after the what is a Woman documentary? 482 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 3: Got? Good? 483 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,199 Speaker 4: Lord knows how many viewers on Twitter even if you 484 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 4: think that they're counting is an order of magnitude off. 485 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 4: You're still talking about millions and millions of people, you know, 486 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 4: gobbling up this content. And the progressive kind of media 487 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 4: ecosystem is just not even if you include c A, 488 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 4: MSNBC in that, which I wouldn't, but even if you do, 489 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 4: it's not even remotely comparable. Do you can you on 490 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 4: the right, do you like kind of feel a burst 491 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 4: of energy when it comes to audience that that wasn't 492 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 4: there before? Or is this kind of manufactured through the 493 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 4: hostile takeover of an algorithm? 494 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 6: I think independent media has a burst of energy, not 495 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,199 Speaker 6: so much conservative media. If that makes sense because I 496 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,479 Speaker 6: just checked. The Tucker video does have, according to Twitter's numbers, 497 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,360 Speaker 6: sixty one point seven million views, so that's about twelve 498 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 6: hours in about twelve hours, And it may be orders 499 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 6: of magnitude off. It may just be when people scrow 500 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 6: through the video one million, right, which is higher than 501 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 6: his audience on Fox News. And I think that ten 502 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 6: minute format is smart. It's really targeted. You can write 503 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 6: a really sharp, clever monologue. I thought the writing of 504 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 6: the monologue was excellent, just from like the art of 505 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 6: writing standpoint, sort of very typical Tucker. He's a great 506 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 6: writer and his good writers on his staff. So I 507 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 6: think that's where I think the format is very He 508 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 6: found a format that's going to work very well for him. 509 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 7: But I also thinks it's. 510 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 6: True that like real leftist media, meaning like actual you know, 511 00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 6: critical of our foreign policy, critical of the economic consensus, 512 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 6: leftist media. It's it's sort of like similar to where 513 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 6: conservative media has always been, Like there's just there's not 514 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 6: a ton of like money and energy behind that in 515 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 6: profession and the professional political class. 516 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 7: But what's interesting is that the. 517 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 6: Establishment media, the legacy media, is so culturally leftists. Now, 518 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 6: I shouldn't say left us so culturally progressive now that 519 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 6: it's it's the it's created the lane. And when I 520 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 6: say culturally, I don't just mean on the sort of 521 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 6: woke agenda, because yes, they're they're really far to the 522 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 6: left when it comes to a lot of those things, 523 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 6: but also just in like censorship issues, like they're completely 524 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 6: pro censorship. They're pro like X, Y and Z, And 525 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 6: that creates the lane from Matt Walsh to come in, 526 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 6: That creates the lane for Tucker Carlson to come in. 527 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 6: And then those are the same people in legacy media 528 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,959 Speaker 6: who decry populism, and all they do is empower populist 529 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 6: by giving them very real ammunition. So you can't like 530 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 6: complain about Tucker having a sixty million video viewership in 531 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 6: twelve hours when he is basically right on the substance 532 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 6: of the question that you're not doing your job very 533 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 6: well if you aren't wallwall coverage about governments lies on 534 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 6: UFO craft, and governments lies on you know, this entire 535 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 6: nord Stream bombing and the entire war. 536 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 4: Really and Tucker had a really interesting kind of inversion 537 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 4: of a Bernie Sanders line at the end of his 538 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 4: monologue which people can finance. Around the like nine and 539 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 4: a half minute mark or so, where he says something like, 540 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 4: don't ask why we're all so rich, go worry about racism, 541 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 4: which is essentially out of kind of left wing populism 542 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 4: over the last one hundred and fifty years. That the 543 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 4: argument is that, you know, race and racism itself was 544 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 4: kind of constructed back in the sixteenth seventeenth century in 545 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:57,600 Speaker 4: order to, you know, allow elites to divide the working 546 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 4: class in a way that will allow them to rule 547 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 4: over them. He's sort of using it a slightly different angle. 548 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 4: He's arguing. He's arguing that, I guess there isn't there 549 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 4: isn't racism, and so the elites are saying, look, there 550 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 4: is racism, so you need to fight about the question 551 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 4: of whether there is racism. But it's fundamentally the same 552 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 4: point that he's making, that that that has been made 553 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 4: for you know, hundreds of years by people on the 554 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 4: left saying that that it's a it's a tool that 555 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 4: the ruling class uses to kind of divide everyone underneath 556 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 4: the rule the ruling class, and. 557 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 3: That is was that an iteration and an evolution at. 558 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 4: All of his politics that he's edging closer to that, 559 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 4: or do you think that there's there's been a kind 560 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 4: of an element of that from. 561 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 6: The beginning the speech he gave it the Heritage Foundation 562 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 6: right before, and reportedly this may have had some impact 563 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 6: on Rupert Murdoch's thinking. He made a speech of the 564 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 6: Heritage Fundation's fiftieth anniversary gala the friday before he got canned, 565 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 6: on a Monday, and he talked like, very honestly about 566 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 6: his ideological evolution going from sort of more libertarian to 567 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 6: now more of like populist conservative. And yeah, I think 568 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 6: that absolutely represents an evolution is thinking. And I wish 569 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 6: the again speaking of how there's like a lane created it. 570 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 6: I actually really wish that the left talked more like that. 571 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 6: And I think the right is needs to internalize and 572 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 6: learn the lesson too about how the ruling class uses 573 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 6: those questions to distract, because they're actually still they're using 574 00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 6: like very real concerns people have about what their children 575 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 6: are being taught in school and using it as fodder 576 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 6: to just create complete distractions. That doesn't mean that people 577 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 6: on the right or the anti woke left, center whatever 578 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 6: shouldn't talk about that at all. 579 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 7: I mean it doesn't. 580 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 6: Invalidate those concerns, but it is important to recognize that 581 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 6: there does, there does need to be a balance, because 582 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 6: there is a balance for your average voter, your average 583 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:09,719 Speaker 6: person who you know, relies on the media, the political class, 584 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 6: the political universe to create a safe and prospering society. 585 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,480 Speaker 4: Well, let's let's move on to this incredible basically takeover 586 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 4: of golf by Muhammed bin Salma. Now it's being reported 587 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 4: as a merger between the PGA and Live Golf, which 588 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 4: was the Saudi funded rival that went around and was 589 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 4: posching a whole bunch of players in order to create 590 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 4: like a rival tour, you know, massively overpaying them and 591 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 4: then you know, with the idea that they're going to 592 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 4: you know, create this competition. PGA Tour was responded by saying, basically, 593 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 4: these are terrorists. You know, you've never had to apologize 594 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 4: for being part of the PGA. You're gonna have to 595 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 4: apologize constantly if you're part of the Live tour. If 596 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,719 Speaker 4: you do that, you are a complete sellout. And and 597 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 4: then next thing, you know, PGA Tour is selling out itself. 598 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 4: If you look at if you look at and Ben Walsh, 599 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 4: there has some of the details of the contract. The 600 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 4: PGA will still technically have the kind of voting majority 601 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 4: on the board that governs this, but the Saudis, through 602 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 4: their their sovereign wealth fund, will have the exclusive right 603 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,720 Speaker 4: to invest. In other words, they will own it like 604 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 4: they are the owners. And so what does it even 605 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 4: mean at that point that the PGA players have a 606 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:36,240 Speaker 4: voting membership if it's completely funded and owned by the Saudis. 607 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 4: This seems like just a complete victory for them as 608 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:40,480 Speaker 4: far as I can see. 609 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 3: What's your read on it? 610 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 7: Oh? 611 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 6: Absolutely, I mean the memes on this were incredible. First 612 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 6: of all, who knew that golf Twitter was so funny? 613 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 5: Not me? 614 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 6: And speaking of which, speaking of Twitter, let's roll the 615 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 6: next element. 616 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 7: Let's just put C two up here. 617 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 6: This was a pretty interesting take by Senator Mike Lee 618 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 6: where he said, the PGA Golf Tour is buying Saudi 619 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 6: backed lip Golf Tour. Looks like a long established dominant 620 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 6: incumbent is acquiring a Nason competitor, one that has been 621 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 6: challenging its dominant positions. 622 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 7: So there you see. 623 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 6: A counter argument from actually an anti trust angle, which 624 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 6: is pretty interesting too. 625 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:18,479 Speaker 7: Matt Fuller. 626 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 6: Then we can put the next element up here as 627 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 6: we roll through a lot of the amusing reactions, had 628 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 6: this great tweet where he's like doing this transcript of 629 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 6: a conversation between Saudi Arabia and the PGA tour. Hey, 630 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 6: PGA golfers, we have a bunch of money to offer 631 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 6: you for a new league. 632 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 7: PGA. 633 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 6: You're ruining the game in sportswa washing your reputation of 634 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,719 Speaker 6: human rights abuses. Okay, but what if we offered you 635 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 6: a lot of money. PGA today we'd like to announce 636 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 6: a merger. 637 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, basically, and then. 638 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 6: There's just an incredible confluence of events here, so we 639 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,240 Speaker 6: can put the next element up. This is a Wall 640 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 6: Street Journal story about Secretary of State Anthony Blincoln. He 641 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 6: goes to Saudi Arabia and we're reportedly he's going to 642 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,280 Speaker 6: say that human rights are in the are. He's going 643 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 6: to take up the issue of human rights with the Saudi's, 644 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 6: which of course is what the Biden administration wants to posture. 645 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 6: As we'll see how substantive that ends up being. And 646 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 6: then finally, this is maybe my favorite element of the story. 647 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,879 Speaker 7: C five, we can put this tweet up. This is a. 648 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 6: Tweet from Timothy means of a Donald Trump truth from 649 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 6: What Yeah July eighteenth, twenty twenty two, where he basically 650 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 6: predicted this is pretty crazy, where he said all of 651 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 6: those golfers that remain quite loyal to the very disloyal 652 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 6: PGA and all his different forms will pay a big 653 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 6: price when the inevitable merger with Live comes and you 654 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,360 Speaker 6: get nothing from but a thank you from PGA officials 655 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 6: who are making millions of dollars a year. Ryan, My 656 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 6: question to you is Trump's There's nobody who knows corrupt 657 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 6: business deals better than Donald Trump? Is this not him 658 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 6: just having the perfect experience to predict the moment? 659 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 4: This was entire This was crystal clear to him, and 660 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 4: he from his perspective, he probably couldn't see how other 661 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 4: people couldn't see where this was going. He's like, what 662 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,320 Speaker 4: part of this don't you guys understand? Like they have 663 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 4: an enormous amount of money that they're willing to spend. 664 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 3: People like money. 665 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 4: They will eventually take the money and they will own 666 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 4: you and I like the way that he will like 667 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 4: isn't the right. 668 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 3: Word for it. 669 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 4: The way that he addresses love right, The way that 670 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 4: he addresses the players who are trying to take a 671 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 4: stand against this is just amazing, saying like, look, you 672 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 4: guys are the fools, because you're eventually going to be 673 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 4: in the pay of MBS anyway, and all you're not 674 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 4: even All you're going to get is a pad on 675 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,720 Speaker 4: the head from the PGA, while the PGA is eventually 676 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 4: going to sell out take the money. All these other 677 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,320 Speaker 4: players that are selling out are going to take the money, 678 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,240 Speaker 4: and you're still going to end up working for the Saudis, 679 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,600 Speaker 4: but just at the same pay or even less than 680 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 4: you're getting now. And tragic as it is, that turns 681 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 4: out to have been basically one hundred percent correct. 682 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 6: So we have now Anthony Blinkin going to Saudi Arabia 683 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 6: and Ryan you know these you know this particular issue 684 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,600 Speaker 6: area very well. Of course, the Biden administration wants to posture, 685 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:22,919 Speaker 6: and they got their ws, they got their Wall Street 686 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 6: Journal headline, assuming this is the one that they wanted. 687 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,120 Speaker 6: As Blincn visits Saudi Arabia, human rights are back in 688 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 6: focus sub having Biden officials have pushed the Saudis to 689 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 6: lift travel bands on American citizens. So Blincoln is prepping 690 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 6: to visit Saudi Arabia this week and prepping a human 691 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,640 Speaker 6: rights message to the Saudis. How confident are you that 692 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 6: that actually comes to fruition in a substantive way. 693 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 4: Not very because as you saw, MBS basically jacked up 694 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,799 Speaker 4: gas prices right right ahead of the announcement of the 695 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 4: of the PGA takeover. So it's it's almost inaccurate to 696 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 4: say that the Saudis are are buying the PGA. We 697 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 4: are buying the PGA, you know, with the money that 698 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,680 Speaker 4: we're putting into our gas tanks and then sending over 699 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 4: to MBS that he's then using to buy PGA, And 700 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 4: he's restricting oil production in order to drive up gas 701 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 4: prices to help offset the tiny amount that he's going 702 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 4: to spend for the PGA, so blink and is going 703 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 4: to have that that he's going to have to negotiate. 704 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 3: He's he's also. 705 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 4: Going to be pushing and he said for MBS to 706 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 4: release a bunch of American residents, you know, who are 707 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 4: being who are not allowed to being kept illegally in 708 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 4: the country, a lot of them for social media posts 709 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,320 Speaker 4: on a social media platform. At Saudi Arabia is a 710 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 4: significant owner of Twitter, you you constantly see news stories 711 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 4: of people being arrested and sentenced to insanely long sentences 712 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 4: for something that they said on Twitter. A significant number 713 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 4: of those are American residents, are American citizens, and so 714 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 4: Blankin is going to be taking up their cases. So 715 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 4: those are those are a couple of things he's going 716 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 4: to have to push. Meanwhile, they're pushing a cruel and 717 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 4: absurd Yemen policy while they're there, and that is probably 718 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 4: the real driver of Blncoln's visit, which is to try 719 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 4: to undermine these talks that are ongoing directly between Saudi 720 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,799 Speaker 4: Arabia and the Hoho Thies because the US says that 721 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,760 Speaker 4: they want a kind of quote unquote U N broker peace, 722 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,360 Speaker 4: and by U N broker they mean a huge a 723 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,840 Speaker 4: huge role for the United States in the in those talks. 724 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 4: The US is deeply concerned about the fact that China 725 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 4: was able to and we've talked about this before on 726 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 4: the show, that China was able to reach this kind 727 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 4: of datan between Iran and Saudi Arabia and as a result, 728 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 4: you wound up with these with these peace peace talks progressing. 729 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 4: So Blinkin is going to try to make sure that 730 00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 4: those peace talks jump from there over into basically a 731 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,319 Speaker 4: U Brokeren situation that would then the US hopes, you know, 732 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 4: continue to give them access to the Gulf of Aiden, 733 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,880 Speaker 4: which is, you know, controls something like forty percent of 734 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,520 Speaker 4: the maritime economy, you know, oil and shipping all flows 735 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,319 Speaker 4: through there and into the into the Mediterranean. 736 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 3: So that's that's really what's going on. And so. 737 00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:24,479 Speaker 4: You know how much of a role is are human 738 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 4: rights going to play into that? 739 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,759 Speaker 3: We'll see, And what. 740 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 6: Do you make, lastly of Mike Lee's antitrust argument in 741 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:33,200 Speaker 6: this case? 742 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 3: I mean, I guess it's funny. 743 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 4: You know, it'd be funny if Lena Khan FTC chair 744 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 4: was able to come in and say, you know what, 745 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 4: actually we're not going to allow this. We want more 746 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 4: competition in our in our golf leagues. 747 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 3: I don't. I don't see that happening. 748 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 4: And also it doesn't he had to kind of contort 749 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 4: what really happened in order to make it fit his 750 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,760 Speaker 4: hit his kind of joke there, because it doesn't actually 751 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 4: seem like the income dominant player acquired an upstart competitor. 752 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 4: It seems like the upstart competitor acquired the incumbent, right, 753 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 4: but whatever, like close enough for close enough for a. 754 00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 7: Joke, It goes enough for a joke. 755 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 6: And it also is true that you have these like 756 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,000 Speaker 6: two whether or not it's an upstart, like two hugely 757 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 6: groups that have a big swath of the market. 758 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 4: Up and people probably know this, but like the NFL, 759 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 4: Major League Baseball, those types of entities have carve outs 760 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 4: to anti trust policy, like written into law, like they 761 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 4: are legally allowed to operate illegally like that. And in 762 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 4: order to have that cartel, you know, to have this 763 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 4: monopoly on baseball, the where we as a public are 764 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 4: then able to regulate baseball and football and basketball in 765 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 4: ways that we otherwise. 766 00:40:55,600 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 3: Wouldn't have wouldn't have been. We have breaking news. 767 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 4: Chris Licked is out at CNN following that devastating Tim 768 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:07,760 Speaker 4: albert a profile. 769 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 3: In The Atlantic. 770 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:14,760 Speaker 4: Emily, what is your reaction to this extremely short tenure 771 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 4: of the new CNN head. 772 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 6: Chrislick's tenure at CNN was always fascinating because he came 773 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,319 Speaker 6: from Stephen Colbert and he was producing the heck out 774 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 6: of that Stephen Colbert show to where it was both 775 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 6: the least funny show in late night and the most 776 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 6: highly rated show in late Night for a long period 777 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,600 Speaker 6: of the Trump administration, a very far cry from the 778 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 6: Johnny Carson days. In the same way that CNN during 779 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 6: the reign of Jeff Zucker was a very far cry 780 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 6: from the version of CNN in the eighties and nineties 781 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,320 Speaker 6: and the aughts, when it thrived as a news network 782 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 6: that people saw as truly being kind of down the middle. 783 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,359 Speaker 6: It was the only place that could really pull off 784 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,480 Speaker 6: hosting a show like Crossfire, and Chris Lickt desperately wanted 785 00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,760 Speaker 6: to restore that, which is funny because when you're tapping 786 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:03,400 Speaker 6: slicked for this job, he was producing Mourning Joe. He 787 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 6: is a very successful sort of mastermind of what happened 788 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 6: over at Morning Joe in the early days of that show. 789 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:12,240 Speaker 6: That's a very niche product. Colbert is a very niche product. 790 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 6: And so on one hand, he really knew the market. 791 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,600 Speaker 6: He knew that because corporate press is dying, that what 792 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,440 Speaker 6: it needs to do is corner these very particular niches. 793 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,680 Speaker 6: But in that sort of direction, he never seemed to 794 00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,399 Speaker 6: know then how to implement that. He in the Tim 795 00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 6: Alberta profile, is repeatedly shown as straining to get his 796 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 6: staff to be on board with his mission of what's 797 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 6: derided in the press now both sides is you know, 798 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,799 Speaker 6: having Republicans on your air and giving them room, you know, 799 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,400 Speaker 6: giving them tough interviews, but like actually letting them on 800 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:49,799 Speaker 6: air and letting them say things you may think are 801 00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 6: horrible about the election, but at least letting them say 802 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 6: that so that you can grill them and you can 803 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 6: have the contrast. That's what Chrislick really wanted. So I 804 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,399 Speaker 6: actually my contrarian take is I probably would have kept 805 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 6: CNN Plus because I think, you know, the future is 806 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 6: in that space, definitely not in the sort of airwaves. 807 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 6: And I think I never would have sat for that 808 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,839 Speaker 6: Tim Alberta profile, which was unbelievable, and it seemed like 809 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,400 Speaker 6: Licked had long been protected by a good relationship with 810 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,239 Speaker 6: Zaslav and maybe that has come to an end in 811 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 6: the light of the Alberta profile. But just a lot 812 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 6: of fascinating I think failures of people to reckon with 813 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:33,320 Speaker 6: the new media atmosphere in which audiences desperately want independent news, 814 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 6: but that doesn't mean they want people to lie to 815 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 6: them and say they have no biases. And that's what 816 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,319 Speaker 6: CNN wanted to do. It wanted to get people up 817 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,120 Speaker 6: there with a straight face, like with Caitlyn Collins and 818 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 6: Donald Trump, and say I'm just going to be right 819 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,520 Speaker 6: down the middle here, and then you'd be fully from 820 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:48,319 Speaker 6: the left. 821 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,239 Speaker 4: And it seems even in the way that you're describing it, 822 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 4: that it was just a fundamental contradiction that couldn't be 823 00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,279 Speaker 4: worked out because he wants to do two things that 824 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 4: are in conflict. One he wants to bring back CNN, 825 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,359 Speaker 4: you know, to its glory day is when it was 826 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 4: trusted by tens of millions of people across the political spectrum. 827 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,400 Speaker 4: Yet he also understands that that doesn't exist anymore, and 828 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 4: that the spot for that type of media is a 829 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:20,440 Speaker 4: niche market, and I don't. And sometimes the smartest people 830 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 4: on the planet will get themselves stuck in these fundamental 831 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 4: contradictions that can't be worked out and then just frustrate 832 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:32,719 Speaker 4: themselves endlessly because they're intelligence and they're hard work. Just 833 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,640 Speaker 4: can't seem to unbundle this contradiction because it just simply 834 00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:41,080 Speaker 4: can't be unbundled. If I were given Chryslick's job and said, 835 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:42,839 Speaker 4: all right, you need to fix CNN, what I would 836 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,240 Speaker 4: to actually do is I would have gone to Crystal 837 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,000 Speaker 4: and Saga and be like, I want to hire you guys, 838 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 4: and I want to I don't want to produce kind 839 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 4: of left right, but not cross fire television all day long. 840 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:56,760 Speaker 3: No centrists. 841 00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 4: We're getting like, the centrists can come on as guests, 842 00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:01,520 Speaker 4: just as we want to hear what these kind of 843 00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:02,800 Speaker 4: zook creatures. 844 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 3: Have to say about their view of politics. 845 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,440 Speaker 4: But but we're not going to try to pretend like 846 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:11,240 Speaker 4: we have some magical center that we're going to channel 847 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:14,839 Speaker 4: and be trusted by everybody. What I'm going to get 848 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 4: is some people you like, some people you don't like, 849 00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:18,720 Speaker 4: and you can hear from all sides. 850 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,799 Speaker 3: Uh and and see and see if that works. 851 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,200 Speaker 4: I think I still think there's actually an opening for 852 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 4: a mass media that that does that. Whether it can 853 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:32,480 Speaker 4: do that and be trusted on a corporate platform, it 854 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,240 Speaker 4: remains to be seen. Although there are so many different 855 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:37,640 Speaker 4: platforms now, like you said, it's it's streaming, it's cable, 856 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 4: it's you know, their their clips are on YouTube, We're 857 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:44,200 Speaker 4: on We're on YouTube. YouTube's corporation. So you know, the 858 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:46,919 Speaker 4: jury's out on that. But that's that's that's the route 859 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,799 Speaker 4: I would have gone. Also, would not have sat with 860 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,480 Speaker 4: Tim Alberta for a fifteen thousand word Atlantic profile and 861 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,000 Speaker 4: take them in as gym and whatever else he did, right. 862 00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,120 Speaker 6: He took him to the gym and said, quote, Zucker 863 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 6: can't do this when he was lifting, this is like 864 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 6: my favorite thing I've ever seen in a profile that 865 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,200 Speaker 6: somebody you know willingly sat for. 866 00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,640 Speaker 7: And that just brings us to I think one of the. 867 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 6: The other fundamental parts of the story, which is, no 868 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,759 Speaker 6: matter how badly you want to kind of restore some 869 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,239 Speaker 6: of these institutions, they are We're actually talking about this 870 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,200 Speaker 6: in the next block too, because it relates back to 871 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,879 Speaker 6: that fantastic story you wrote last year when you raise 872 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:30,040 Speaker 6: a generation or two of people with this, I don't 873 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,439 Speaker 6: know this idea that people need to be protected from 874 00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 6: bad arguments like they actually need protection from bad arguments. 875 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:43,160 Speaker 6: You can't trust the public to deal with those bad arguments. Well, 876 00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 6: that's baked the CNN's cake now. And even as the 877 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:50,080 Speaker 6: CEO Chris Licked could not deal with that, he couldn't 878 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,920 Speaker 6: like actually control employees who said, I don't want to 879 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,560 Speaker 6: have Republicans on our airwaves. I don't want to air 880 00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:01,000 Speaker 6: these arguments. I don't want the contrast was never able 881 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:03,799 Speaker 6: to like actually fix that even as the top guy 882 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,920 Speaker 6: at the company. I think that's a huge takeaway when 883 00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,040 Speaker 6: people say, you know, some of the stuff, the pendulum 884 00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,000 Speaker 6: will just swing back. Well, no, because there are a 885 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,120 Speaker 6: whole lot of especially younger people, who for whom these 886 00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,520 Speaker 6: ideas are really central to their worldview and to their 887 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,879 Speaker 6: like self esteem in so many cases, because it's how 888 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,120 Speaker 6: they measure, you know, whether or not they have the 889 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,759 Speaker 6: right ideas about the world. That You're not just going 890 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,359 Speaker 6: to come in and have Chris locked bulldozed this like 891 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:35,040 Speaker 6: deeply bad, this deeply seated ideology that so many people have. 892 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:36,719 Speaker 7: It just doesn't work that way anymore. 893 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,960 Speaker 6: And you know, even if you look at something like 894 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 6: a top podcast like The Daily, that's not monoculture, Like 895 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,799 Speaker 6: you can't just be like, you know, walking maybe if 896 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:47,799 Speaker 6: you walk into a Whole Foods, you'll find someone else 897 00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:49,640 Speaker 6: be like, hey, did you hear what was on the 898 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:54,920 Speaker 6: Daily this morning? But but like it's not like that. 899 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,640 Speaker 6: In the rest of the country, there really isn't monoculture anymore. 900 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,880 Speaker 6: So it's that that clash between trying to make monoculture 901 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,919 Speaker 6: with a generation that really isn't capable and also trying 902 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,839 Speaker 6: to make monoculture when that's not really what you know 903 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,920 Speaker 6: the It's just really hard to do that because I 904 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,319 Speaker 6: agree with you that the audience does want it. But 905 00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,000 Speaker 6: if you're not willing to like really go there, you're 906 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 6: not gonna be able to do it. 907 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,239 Speaker 4: Yea rough ride for Chris licked. He's been put out 908 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:22,560 Speaker 4: of his misery. Stick around, We'll be back with more. 909 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:23,239 Speaker 3: Right after this. 910 00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 6: A store in The New Yorker by Emma Green profiling 911 00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 6: the Arc of Fair, a group that was started by 912 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:34,759 Speaker 6: Barry Weiss and some other sort of dissident people on 913 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,319 Speaker 6: the right and the center, maybe a few on the 914 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:42,560 Speaker 6: center left. The Arc of Fair became fodder for this 915 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:46,799 Speaker 6: fairly interesting New Yorker story, and the story reminded me 916 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:51,799 Speaker 6: pretty immediately actually of Ryan's story from last summer in 917 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:56,000 Speaker 6: the Intercept that was also very very viral and especially 918 00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,680 Speaker 6: viral and sort of DC and Beltwegh circles about how 919 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:06,320 Speaker 6: UH ideology has paralyzed a lot of nonprofits on the left. 920 00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,719 Speaker 6: The story in The New Yorker was really about how even 921 00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:14,800 Speaker 6: anti woke and anti woke group Fair, in the words 922 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,400 Speaker 6: of some of the people that were really involved, was 923 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,160 Speaker 6: supposed to be kind of a counterbalance to the a 924 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,680 Speaker 6: c LU, like an idea of a group that could 925 00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:24,879 Speaker 6: really stand up for civil liberties where you see them 926 00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:29,319 Speaker 6: coming under siege. I would argue correctly that, I would 927 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:33,160 Speaker 6: argue that they're correct that some civil liberties have come 928 00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,040 Speaker 6: under siege by the I don't want to call it 929 00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:40,120 Speaker 6: woke ideology, but that's sort of far left. I don't 930 00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:42,360 Speaker 6: even know Ryan, how right? How do you describe it? Like, 931 00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:43,759 Speaker 6: what's a better word than woke? 932 00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,359 Speaker 4: I mean, woke kind of gets you there, it does. 933 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,799 Speaker 4: It's until people until people ask you to define it, 934 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,319 Speaker 4: and then you go viral because because it's hard to 935 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,200 Speaker 4: hard to pin down. But you know, that's that's kind 936 00:49:56,239 --> 00:50:01,200 Speaker 4: of it. Weiss herself wrote an essay uh in was 937 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:01,840 Speaker 4: it tablet? 938 00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:02,640 Speaker 3: Uh? 939 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:07,440 Speaker 4: You know that kind of inspired this organization in some ways, 940 00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:09,560 Speaker 4: and the New Yorker New York talks about that, and 941 00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:14,640 Speaker 4: even her description of it lumps together, you know, you know, 942 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:19,160 Speaker 4: post modern post structural uh, combined with some you know, 943 00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,759 Speaker 4: identity politics. It's it's like, it's it's very hard to 944 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:26,360 Speaker 4: kind of boil down into a single word. Well, you know, 945 00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,160 Speaker 4: it's probably decent if you can take away some of 946 00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,160 Speaker 4: the stigma and pejorative nature of it, because it's you know, 947 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,880 Speaker 4: it started out as an UH as a moniker that 948 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:37,799 Speaker 4: people were adopting. 949 00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:38,480 Speaker 3: On their own. 950 00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,400 Speaker 4: But I think there's a couple of interesting layers of this, 951 00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,759 Speaker 4: this piece that we can that we can disentangle here. 952 00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:46,480 Speaker 4: On the one hand, and you and I were talking 953 00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,360 Speaker 4: about this, some of this is just kind of silly 954 00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:52,120 Speaker 4: naivete among some people that just don't seem to understand 955 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:57,000 Speaker 4: how UH non nonprofits work. And we're frustrated at that, 956 00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:02,720 Speaker 4: and you see that at so many different organizations. That's 957 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,040 Speaker 4: just that is what it is, and that's but that 958 00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:10,040 Speaker 4: is also the responsibility of good managers to work through 959 00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:15,200 Speaker 4: like it. I think too many managers think that everybody 960 00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,839 Speaker 4: is just kind of born knowing how organizations work, how 961 00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:21,080 Speaker 4: nonprofits work, what nonprofit structures are like, and they're not. 962 00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:25,040 Speaker 4: They like people have to learn through the process of 963 00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:29,239 Speaker 4: doing and through the process of you know, interactions with 964 00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:32,880 Speaker 4: management of these types of organizations. And so you can't 965 00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:34,839 Speaker 4: just throw your hands up and say, kids today, they 966 00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:36,640 Speaker 4: just don't have any idea what's doing. It's it's also 967 00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:40,719 Speaker 4: your responsibility to make the case for why the structure 968 00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,560 Speaker 4: that you have and the mission that you have is working. 969 00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:45,640 Speaker 3: So that's that's one side of it. 970 00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:50,240 Speaker 4: The other is the kind of interesting substantive ideological question 971 00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:52,640 Speaker 4: at the heart of this piece, which is, as they 972 00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,919 Speaker 4: ask it, can you be moderate and be anti woke? 973 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,239 Speaker 4: I'd kind of frame it as, you know, what, does 974 00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:02,560 Speaker 4: this kind of world, which we could broadly call anti 975 00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:04,759 Speaker 4: anti woke maybe stand for. 976 00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:07,800 Speaker 3: Rather than stand against? 977 00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,520 Speaker 4: And And that's the that's the point that the one 978 00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:14,160 Speaker 4: of the co founders who went on to run the 979 00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:21,440 Speaker 4: organization was making himself his names Bien Bartning, and he 980 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,400 Speaker 4: didn't want it to be just anti this and anti that. 981 00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:26,280 Speaker 3: He wanted to stand for something. 982 00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:30,279 Speaker 4: The problem is what he decided it stood for was 983 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:34,640 Speaker 4: kind of cringe and silly pro human went with pro human, 984 00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:39,200 Speaker 4: which I think is not a is not his fault 985 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:43,640 Speaker 4: for being unable to accurately message. I think there isn't 986 00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:48,000 Speaker 4: actually a substantive politics there for him to name, because 987 00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:51,640 Speaker 4: there's so much disagreement within within the space that is 988 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:55,759 Speaker 4: coalescing and organizing around the idea of anti woke. It's like, 989 00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:59,680 Speaker 4: if you're an anti fascist front in UH in Spain, 990 00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:03,120 Speaker 4: let say you encompass everybody from the center right to 991 00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:07,040 Speaker 4: the far left, and so you don't you're a front 992 00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,640 Speaker 4: that is against a thing you don't actually stand for. 993 00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,760 Speaker 4: All of you don't stand for the same thing, so China. 994 00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,200 Speaker 4: So trying to narrow it down is basically impossible because 995 00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:19,560 Speaker 4: it's going to eliminate some people who don't agree with 996 00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:21,279 Speaker 4: certain things. And it really seemed to come to a 997 00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:25,160 Speaker 4: head around gender ideology. What was your what was your 998 00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,560 Speaker 4: read on that substantive question of what kind of tore 999 00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:29,360 Speaker 4: this group apart? 1000 00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:32,720 Speaker 6: That's clearly where it crumbled. And to your point about 1001 00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,359 Speaker 6: anti pro I mean antie is baked into the name. 1002 00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:39,319 Speaker 6: It's called the Foundation Against Intolerance and Racism. And the 1003 00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:43,840 Speaker 6: relevance of the story again is that Barry Weiss admirably 1004 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,680 Speaker 6: had ambitions of this to be something that really counters 1005 00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:50,120 Speaker 6: the ACLU, and it's clearly not headed for that trajectory. 1006 00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,719 Speaker 6: It seems to be at this point a shell of 1007 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,840 Speaker 6: its former self and a shell of its ambitions. It 1008 00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:58,560 Speaker 6: had money, we learned in this profile from Harlan Crowe, 1009 00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:02,120 Speaker 6: which some folks will remember from recent stories about the conservative. 1010 00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:03,280 Speaker 7: Legal movement and Clarence Thomas. 1011 00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:06,520 Speaker 6: It got like a million dollar donation from one high 1012 00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:09,520 Speaker 6: level donor who started to become disillusioned on the group herself, 1013 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:11,440 Speaker 6: particularly around this issue of. 1014 00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:12,400 Speaker 7: Sex and gender. 1015 00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:15,160 Speaker 6: And that's what's so interesting about this story is that, 1016 00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:20,040 Speaker 6: you know, the intolerance part of fair obviously, I think 1017 00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,440 Speaker 6: in this climate, I mean, one of the reasons I 1018 00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:24,480 Speaker 6: don't like to use the word woke is because I 1019 00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:26,520 Speaker 6: think it's almost too narrow. That a lot of this 1020 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,719 Speaker 6: is is really broad. These questions about like what is 1021 00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:33,200 Speaker 6: a woman? That's so much broader than woke, if you 1022 00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:35,719 Speaker 6: even want to use the like Matt Walsh framing, there's 1023 00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:38,520 Speaker 6: so much more going on in that. And I think 1024 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:42,920 Speaker 6: if you say you're pro human and you're against intolerance, 1025 00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:46,600 Speaker 6: that's almost just getting to like the censorship question, and 1026 00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:48,880 Speaker 6: that gets to the you know, like Twitter for a 1027 00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:52,440 Speaker 6: while not letting you weigh in on the issue of 1028 00:54:52,680 --> 00:54:56,600 Speaker 6: you know, defining or referring to biological women by the 1029 00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:59,120 Speaker 6: biological sex. Twitter says you can't do that. That's an 1030 00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,240 Speaker 6: entirely different question. Question whether Twitter and the government collude 1031 00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:04,280 Speaker 6: to say you can't do that, then whether you should 1032 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:08,600 Speaker 6: actually morally refer to a biological woman as a woman, 1033 00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,000 Speaker 6: or if you should go along with preferred pronouns, or 1034 00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,319 Speaker 6: if you should say that you know, people actually really 1035 00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:17,640 Speaker 6: can change the biological sex, or that biological sex is inconsequential. Like, 1036 00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:21,000 Speaker 6: these are completely different questions, And I think part of 1037 00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:23,560 Speaker 6: the problem that the so called anti woke movement has 1038 00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:27,279 Speaker 6: is that the censorship question is the gateway for a 1039 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,000 Speaker 6: lot of disillusion people on the left and then they 1040 00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:32,640 Speaker 6: have to make you know, Chris Rufo, for instance, was 1041 00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,320 Speaker 6: part of this group. So you have people coming from 1042 00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,520 Speaker 6: the dissident left and then they have to make common 1043 00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:43,160 Speaker 6: cause with somebody like Chris Rufo, who, by the way himself, 1044 00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:47,960 Speaker 6: I would argue was pretty much has been center left 1045 00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:50,839 Speaker 6: at different points in his life. And if you can 1046 00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:53,600 Speaker 6: come together on the censorship question, it doesn't mean that 1047 00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:55,680 Speaker 6: you can come together and all of the other questions. 1048 00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:57,600 Speaker 6: And that is probably one of the biggest problems that 1049 00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:01,560 Speaker 6: the so called anti woke movement has, and in general, 1050 00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:03,840 Speaker 6: the sort of like I actually think those that common 1051 00:56:03,920 --> 00:56:06,879 Speaker 6: cause is essential in the same way that I think 1052 00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:10,000 Speaker 6: our common cause on for instance, like pentagon funding and 1053 00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,719 Speaker 6: welfare and all of these other things is essential. But 1054 00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:17,640 Speaker 6: if you if you can't get past that, your advocacy 1055 00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:19,400 Speaker 6: group might not work. 1056 00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:23,040 Speaker 4: Yeah, and it suggests to me that kind of gender 1057 00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:28,759 Speaker 4: ideology is becoming, on probably both sides, a black hole 1058 00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:32,160 Speaker 4: that has so much centrifugal force that nobody is able 1059 00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:35,040 Speaker 4: to kind of stay out of it and stay out 1060 00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:40,920 Speaker 4: of the question. Because Bartning, he argued internally that some 1061 00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:46,440 Speaker 4: of these questions were not properly addressed by fair advocacy 1062 00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:49,239 Speaker 4: or fair policy. What he would say is, we don't 1063 00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:53,040 Speaker 4: support any censorship. Like he would say, if we don't, 1064 00:56:53,080 --> 00:56:55,279 Speaker 4: you know, it might be cruel to misgender somebody, but 1065 00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:58,200 Speaker 4: it is not illegal and it should not be banned, 1066 00:56:58,239 --> 00:56:59,959 Speaker 4: you know, So they would they would, they would oppose 1067 00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:02,520 Speaker 4: is that. But when it came to the question of 1068 00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:08,600 Speaker 4: gender affirming care for minors, for instance, he would argue, 1069 00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:11,520 Speaker 4: that's not our business. That's that's up to the that's 1070 00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:15,600 Speaker 4: a political question that ought to be worked out through 1071 00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:19,520 Speaker 4: the political system. And we are here to defend kind 1072 00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:23,120 Speaker 4: of fundamental principles of free expression. We're here to create 1073 00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:26,920 Speaker 4: the playing field on which those decisions can be made 1074 00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,520 Speaker 4: fairly by by a population that can that can you know, 1075 00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:35,040 Speaker 4: come together and argue it out. Whereas that that that 1076 00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:39,120 Speaker 4: major donor for instance, Ruffo and others were saying absolutely 1077 00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:43,840 Speaker 4: not like you need to take a stand against against 1078 00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:46,000 Speaker 4: this care like that you have that this is an 1079 00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:52,360 Speaker 4: issue that requires your your intervention. And so they they 1080 00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:55,240 Speaker 4: basically went to Barry Weiss and the other co founder 1081 00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:01,080 Speaker 4: and Bartning without their knowing it had made them board members. 1082 00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:03,720 Speaker 4: There were three board members of this New York nonprofit. 1083 00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:06,480 Speaker 4: And when they discovered that they were on the paperwork 1084 00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:09,520 Speaker 4: as board members, two of the three board members, they 1085 00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:12,880 Speaker 4: were like, oh, well, we didn't really want to be 1086 00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:14,680 Speaker 4: on the board here, but now that we are, we 1087 00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:17,240 Speaker 4: actually have the votes. And they just called him into 1088 00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:21,720 Speaker 4: a meeting and and made a motion and booted him out. 1089 00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:25,760 Speaker 4: He then kind of basically counter sued, saying, if you're 1090 00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,040 Speaker 4: going to do board business, you need ten days. And 1091 00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:29,960 Speaker 4: then it gets and then it gets into this ten 1092 00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:33,040 Speaker 4: days notice, and it gets into this extraordinarily boring kind 1093 00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:38,120 Speaker 4: of bureaucratic bickering over it, but but which underlies a 1094 00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:41,880 Speaker 4: real ideological fight over the over the direction of the organization. 1095 00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:45,240 Speaker 4: But I'm curious if you think that that's right, that 1096 00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:48,640 Speaker 4: that that organization that you know, an organization that wants 1097 00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:52,440 Speaker 4: to be kind of a center right a CLU can't 1098 00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:57,440 Speaker 4: actually do that anymore because it has to become involved 1099 00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:02,720 Speaker 4: as a fighter in the these battles, particularly over gender. 1100 00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:06,400 Speaker 6: Yeah, I think the acl you benefited from a real 1101 00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:11,000 Speaker 6: social consensus that started to coalesce in the middle of 1102 00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:16,080 Speaker 6: the twentieth century where people in remarkable and beautiful ways 1103 00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:22,040 Speaker 6: had had their minds changed about certain like extremely important issues, 1104 00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,440 Speaker 6: and the ACLU you really for you know, more than 1105 00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:29,480 Speaker 6: fifty years, I think benefited from that version of the 1106 00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:32,040 Speaker 6: country where people had like really come on to the 1107 00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:38,360 Speaker 6: same page about racism and the legal system and sexism. 1108 00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:38,840 Speaker 7: Et cetera, et cetera. 1109 00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:42,160 Speaker 6: And I don't think that the people involved in fair 1110 00:59:42,160 --> 00:59:44,800 Speaker 6: would say they wanted a center right ACLU. They would 1111 00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:47,520 Speaker 6: say they wanted like a center, like they wanted something 1112 00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:53,640 Speaker 6: that was genuinely neutral, and that that ambition of neutrality 1113 00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:56,480 Speaker 6: is not only impossible now, but I don't know that 1114 00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:58,600 Speaker 6: it ever. I mean, it was maybe possible for a 1115 00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:02,400 Speaker 6: very fleeting moment world history in the mid century to 1116 01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:07,200 Speaker 6: millennial America, and I just don't see that being possible. 1117 01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:07,920 Speaker 7: Here's a quote. 1118 01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:10,440 Speaker 6: People were afraid, this is from The New Yorker to 1119 01:00:10,720 --> 01:00:13,000 Speaker 6: voice their disagreement because of how they would be portrayed 1120 01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:15,960 Speaker 6: by bartning behind their backs. They feared being fired, disparaged, 1121 01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,600 Speaker 6: or other forms of retaliation. So it's like, on the 1122 01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:23,360 Speaker 6: one hand, this may not be you know, the big 1123 01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:27,400 Speaker 6: Maybe the narrative isn't super neatly wrapped up in the 1124 01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:31,280 Speaker 6: story because this is deeply I think, intertwined with personnel issues. 1125 01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,640 Speaker 6: Like clearly, first of all, nonprofit structure in this country 1126 01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:39,200 Speaker 6: is a byzantine, bureaucratic nightmare that lends itself, I think, 1127 01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:43,800 Speaker 6: towards corruption and inefficiency. Secondly, maybe this guy was just 1128 01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,280 Speaker 6: really wrong for the job. But I also think the 1129 01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:49,720 Speaker 6: narrative questions are fair. That's my perspective. I don't know 1130 01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:51,360 Speaker 6: about you. I think it is fair to like pull 1131 01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:56,120 Speaker 6: some stuff away from this because clearly personnel issues aside 1132 01:00:56,440 --> 01:01:00,960 Speaker 6: that they were all accelerated the sex question like gasoline 1133 01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:03,560 Speaker 6: on the fire, there were these like you can see 1134 01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:06,280 Speaker 6: in the story, there were these existing fissures, and then 1135 01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:09,360 Speaker 6: when they were forced to litigate internally whether or not 1136 01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:12,320 Speaker 6: they would take a stance on all of the issues 1137 01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:15,800 Speaker 6: that you raised pertaining a biological sex, it crumbled. They 1138 01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:20,280 Speaker 6: couldn't do it without being afraid to talk openly. That's 1139 01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:22,120 Speaker 6: just like pretty amazing takeaway. 1140 01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:24,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, yeah, I think that's right. 1141 01:01:24,960 --> 01:01:29,280 Speaker 4: I think everybody should read the piece because it's as 1142 01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,320 Speaker 4: you described it. I think that's right. It's they tried 1143 01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:37,160 Speaker 4: to be the hetero. These are heterodocs thinkers, These are 1144 01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:41,120 Speaker 4: anti tribalism folks. And I think the reason The New 1145 01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:44,000 Speaker 4: Yorker was excited to do this story is because they 1146 01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:49,200 Speaker 4: loved the delicious irony of the heterodox folks raising the 1147 01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:52,320 Speaker 4: question of how orthodox they need to be on a 1148 01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:56,600 Speaker 4: variety of different issues. And they quote somebody saying, you know, 1149 01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:01,040 Speaker 4: we tried to fight tribalism and in doing that, we 1150 01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:04,280 Speaker 4: formed our own tribes. And I think it is a 1151 01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:07,360 Speaker 4: reflection of where we are today and our kind of 1152 01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:12,560 Speaker 4: social construction that everybody is retreating into their different tribes 1153 01:02:12,560 --> 01:02:15,720 Speaker 4: and if you don't, you kind of just get ripped, 1154 01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:18,400 Speaker 4: ripped apart, and pieces of you go in every direction. 1155 01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:22,120 Speaker 6: Agree and just really quickly before we wrap. I would say, 1156 01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:25,440 Speaker 6: that's why it's just a breakdown and social trust. You know, 1157 01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:29,000 Speaker 6: even people who can find common political cause can't organize 1158 01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:32,320 Speaker 6: and trust each other in I think a high tech 1159 01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:35,880 Speaker 6: social media opticon pen opticon environment and the way that 1160 01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:38,080 Speaker 6: they used to, you know, say even twenty years ago. 1161 01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:41,360 Speaker 6: And secondly, just a quick question before we run, did 1162 01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:44,520 Speaker 6: this remind you of your story from last year that 1163 01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:47,880 Speaker 6: saw just like leftist groups being paralyzed by that breakdown 1164 01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:48,640 Speaker 6: and social trust. 1165 01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:54,240 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, you know, you had different different kind of 1166 01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:58,280 Speaker 4: tools and weapons that were being used internally by the 1167 01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:01,800 Speaker 4: combatants in the office politic just because those are tools 1168 01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:04,600 Speaker 4: that are you know, constructed out of whatever whatever your 1169 01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:11,600 Speaker 4: particular politics are. But the methods and the machinations were 1170 01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:16,640 Speaker 4: were all basically the same. So yes, you're and I 1171 01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:19,880 Speaker 4: think you're seeing some of this on the right as well, 1172 01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:22,840 Speaker 4: in you know, with you know, a lot of church 1173 01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:29,240 Speaker 4: groups are you know, breaking church organizations kind of in turmoil, 1174 01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:33,400 Speaker 4: with everybody accusing each other of being kind of too 1175 01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:37,640 Speaker 4: woke or or to have have embracing you know, crypto 1176 01:03:37,720 --> 01:03:42,080 Speaker 4: dei type tendencies and using whatever the language is, whatever 1177 01:03:42,080 --> 01:03:46,360 Speaker 4: the ideology is, that kind of your organizations organized around 1178 01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:49,440 Speaker 4: you then grab the mantle of the purity of that 1179 01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:52,320 Speaker 4: and then and you beat up your internal enemies. And 1180 01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:54,640 Speaker 4: so I think the left kind of pioneered that over 1181 01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:57,200 Speaker 4: the last ten years or so. But I think you're 1182 01:03:57,200 --> 01:03:59,720 Speaker 4: going to see it in organizations like fair and everywhere else. 1183 01:03:59,800 --> 01:04:02,360 Speaker 3: I mean, you know right wing organizations a lot better 1184 01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:02,720 Speaker 3: than I do. 1185 01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:06,280 Speaker 4: But have you have you started noticing that you're seeing 1186 01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:11,680 Speaker 4: people accuse each other of kind of cryptowolkness that you 1187 01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:15,600 Speaker 4: know if when in reality they're just kind of expressing 1188 01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:19,840 Speaker 4: power struggles for you know, for dominance of the organization. 1189 01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,680 Speaker 7: It's definitely in the churches. I don't know that. 1190 01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:26,720 Speaker 6: I feel like wokeness is a litmus test on the 1191 01:04:26,800 --> 01:04:29,600 Speaker 6: right in general. Now, so even like kind of like 1192 01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:31,800 Speaker 6: Spencer Cox, the governor of Utah, when he gave us 1193 01:04:31,840 --> 01:04:34,880 Speaker 6: preferred pronouns on a zoom call with students, I mean 1194 01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:38,960 Speaker 6: that was well, he was just discredited by basically everybody 1195 01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:40,240 Speaker 6: in the right as soon as he did that. So 1196 01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:41,840 Speaker 6: I think it's generally a litmus test like on the 1197 01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:45,840 Speaker 6: political right, but in cultural spaces like churches for instance, 1198 01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:49,400 Speaker 6: I think you definitely, definitely, definitely see it. So it's 1199 01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:52,240 Speaker 6: not an issue that is going anywhere at all. 1200 01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:59,240 Speaker 4: We have some news on the case of Juliana Sange. 1201 01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:01,920 Speaker 4: So for a while there's been a lawsuit that's been 1202 01:05:01,960 --> 01:05:03,640 Speaker 4: going on that people may or may not be aware of, 1203 01:05:04,520 --> 01:05:08,880 Speaker 4: where a group of attorneys and journalists are suing the CIA, 1204 01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:13,960 Speaker 4: and also suing a former CIA head, Michael Pompeo, for 1205 01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:21,040 Speaker 4: basically illegal surveillance UH and searches within the Ecuadorian embassy. 1206 01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:26,800 Speaker 4: There's been some incredible UH new revelations from the Spanish 1207 01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:31,040 Speaker 4: news organization l PAISE that they are now including in 1208 01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:35,480 Speaker 4: a new filing opposing basically the CIA's attempt to get 1209 01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:36,720 Speaker 4: this case thrown out of court. 1210 01:05:37,160 --> 01:05:37,360 Speaker 3: UH. 1211 01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:40,160 Speaker 4: And first of all, I wanted to show some of 1212 01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:43,040 Speaker 4: the surveillance footage. You can roll this uh just kind 1213 01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:45,280 Speaker 4: of in the background. This is this is the footage 1214 01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:49,320 Speaker 4: that the that a contractor who was working for the 1215 01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:53,160 Speaker 4: Ecuadorian embassy, you know, had access to. And we now 1216 01:05:53,240 --> 01:05:58,800 Speaker 4: know that that contractor had uh had connections to the CIA, 1217 01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:02,439 Speaker 4: and that the CIA was able to exploit their relationship 1218 01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:07,960 Speaker 4: with with this contractor to constantly surveil not only Assange, 1219 01:06:08,640 --> 01:06:14,120 Speaker 4: but other people who came into who came into the embassy, UH, 1220 01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:16,280 Speaker 4: one of which was was me At one point. I 1221 01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:18,600 Speaker 4: wonder if there's footage of me when I when I 1222 01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:22,800 Speaker 4: interviewed as songe there just just just wandering around that embassy. 1223 01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:23,200 Speaker 5: UH. 1224 01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:25,960 Speaker 4: People could find this on I think it's el Pais's 1225 01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:29,320 Speaker 4: You can find a fuller video on el Paisse's YouTube page, 1226 01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:33,080 Speaker 4: and it does give you a real look at the 1227 01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:36,720 Speaker 4: Ecuadorian embassy that he was living in uh for years. 1228 01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:37,080 Speaker 8: Uh. 1229 01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:39,360 Speaker 4: And I was startled when I went there because it's 1230 01:06:39,360 --> 01:06:44,000 Speaker 4: this basically a railway apartment and in London that looked 1231 01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:47,240 Speaker 4: to be only two or three bedrooms, uh and maybe 1232 01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:49,520 Speaker 4: one or two bathrooms. And that that little living room 1233 01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:50,320 Speaker 4: area that you see. 1234 01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:51,280 Speaker 3: Uh. 1235 01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:53,640 Speaker 4: And not only was he there for years, but so 1236 01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:58,000 Speaker 4: was the Ecuadorian embassy staff. Just just an incredible situation 1237 01:06:58,920 --> 01:07:02,240 Speaker 4: that and he wasn't able to leave for anything, which 1238 01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:04,520 Speaker 4: is because if the second he would have left, he 1239 01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:05,320 Speaker 4: would have been picked up. 1240 01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:07,760 Speaker 3: So it's which must be. 1241 01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:10,600 Speaker 4: You know, psychologically torturous to know that if you need 1242 01:07:10,640 --> 01:07:14,080 Speaker 4: medical attention, that that is it for you, Like you're 1243 01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:16,200 Speaker 4: not going to make it even to the hospital, uh 1244 01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:20,160 Speaker 4: before before you're uh before you're detained. H. But so 1245 01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:25,040 Speaker 4: the new piece of information uh that emerged that the 1246 01:07:25,040 --> 01:07:28,240 Speaker 4: the the c i A or this contractor was supposed 1247 01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:31,960 Speaker 4: to turn over you know, all all all of its 1248 01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:35,440 Speaker 4: data from various kind of electronic equipment. 1249 01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:35,960 Speaker 5: UH. 1250 01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:38,600 Speaker 4: There was a technical problem to the judge ordered them 1251 01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:41,320 Speaker 4: to try again, and when they when they did it again, 1252 01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:44,720 Speaker 4: and we can put up this L L paise article. Uh, 1253 01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:48,480 Speaker 4: they accidentally shared what well they were supposed to do it, 1254 01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:50,080 Speaker 4: but I think that they were trying not to share it. 1255 01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:54,440 Speaker 4: A file, uh that is listed as c I A, 1256 01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:58,120 Speaker 4: like the the file, like the direct file. It's just 1257 01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:00,080 Speaker 4: it's just named c I A. 1258 01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:01,600 Speaker 3: And so. 1259 01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:05,920 Speaker 4: Richard Roth of the Roth Law firm, who's who's representing 1260 01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:08,840 Speaker 4: the plaintiffs, he said in a in a comment to me, said, 1261 01:08:08,840 --> 01:08:12,360 Speaker 4: these startling new revelations, as reported by l pays demonstrate 1262 01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:16,240 Speaker 4: that you see global unlawfully surveiled, unknowing Americans when they 1263 01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:19,680 Speaker 4: met with Assange. The initial concealment and then revelation of 1264 01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:22,960 Speaker 4: this new information, if true, is proof that the plaintiffs' 1265 01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:26,200 Speaker 4: claims are legitimate. The CIA's motion to dismiss should either 1266 01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:30,360 Speaker 4: be denied or plaintiffs should be allowed to replead to 1267 01:08:30,400 --> 01:08:31,559 Speaker 4: bring in these new facts. 1268 01:08:31,640 --> 01:08:34,320 Speaker 3: So literally, they busted this. 1269 01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:39,040 Speaker 4: Contractor with a file called CIA, while they have, you know, 1270 01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:40,880 Speaker 4: all sorts of other evidence that they were that the 1271 01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:47,800 Speaker 4: CIA was worthing. Meanwhile, Emily, what are you what are 1272 01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:49,120 Speaker 4: you taking a look at what's your point. 1273 01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:53,320 Speaker 6: I'm also talking about things related to the surveillance state 1274 01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:57,160 Speaker 6: today because it's sort of inescapable. I wanted to do 1275 01:08:57,240 --> 01:09:01,679 Speaker 6: a breakdown on the question of the FBI whistle blower 1276 01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:04,840 Speaker 6: that's being sort of ping ponged around in the media. 1277 01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:07,519 Speaker 6: It's really hot in conservative media, but I think a 1278 01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:09,880 Speaker 6: lot of people don't know exactly what to do with 1279 01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:14,120 Speaker 6: it because Democrats and Republicans and the House of Representatives 1280 01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:18,840 Speaker 6: have come away with different ideas after they've they've viewed 1281 01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:21,920 Speaker 6: this document that's at the center of the whistleblower controversy. 1282 01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:25,080 Speaker 6: On the Senate side too, they've come away with just 1283 01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:29,360 Speaker 6: different ideas of what's actually going on here. So with Republicans, 1284 01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:34,200 Speaker 6: led by James Comer actually saying this week that his 1285 01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:36,680 Speaker 6: Comer is the head of the House Oversight Committee, he 1286 01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:40,719 Speaker 6: said that they're going to convene contempt of Congress hearings 1287 01:09:40,760 --> 01:09:45,400 Speaker 6: for FBI Director Christopher rad later this week over his 1288 01:09:45,680 --> 01:09:50,400 Speaker 6: unwillingness to provide the committee with this document. So the 1289 01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:53,880 Speaker 6: basics year just to go, just to go up to 1290 01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:58,320 Speaker 6: this thirty thousand foot level, is that there is a document. 1291 01:09:58,000 --> 01:10:00,160 Speaker 7: From an FBI whistle blow. 1292 01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:06,200 Speaker 6: That has information was given by a confidential human source 1293 01:10:06,360 --> 01:10:09,439 Speaker 6: to the FBI, and I'm reading from the Federalist here 1294 01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:11,439 Speaker 6: a story by Margot Cleveland. 1295 01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:13,400 Speaker 7: Over at the Federalist. 1296 01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:17,439 Speaker 6: This is a quote from Margo regarding this is that 1297 01:10:17,520 --> 01:10:19,960 Speaker 6: form data June thirtieth, twenty twenty. So this is an 1298 01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:23,720 Speaker 6: FD ten to twenty three form included detailed information from 1299 01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:26,760 Speaker 6: a confidential human source the FBI regarding an agreement by 1300 01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:30,720 Speaker 6: now President Biden to deliver preferred foreign policy positions for 1301 01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:36,240 Speaker 6: a five million dollar payment. It's an absurd possible. I mean, 1302 01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:40,360 Speaker 6: it's not an absurd possibility, but it's an absurd allegation. 1303 01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:43,840 Speaker 6: Not that it's absurd in the realm of being implausible 1304 01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:46,240 Speaker 6: or being anything like that, but it's ripped straight from 1305 01:10:46,280 --> 01:10:49,040 Speaker 6: the pages of a novel or from a movie. Basically 1306 01:10:50,040 --> 01:10:53,280 Speaker 6: that you would have a president of the United States, 1307 01:10:53,320 --> 01:10:58,679 Speaker 6: a former vice president, longtime senator, just taking money for 1308 01:10:58,680 --> 01:11:02,640 Speaker 6: foreign policy position. But the reason this is so important 1309 01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:07,360 Speaker 6: and the reason that Republicans are right to demand this 1310 01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:09,959 Speaker 6: form is because of what we talked about last week. 1311 01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:10,799 Speaker 7: The Durham Report. 1312 01:11:11,240 --> 01:11:13,920 Speaker 6: I really see this as a coda to everything in 1313 01:11:13,960 --> 01:11:17,400 Speaker 6: the Durham Report, where it says Basically, Durham, I think 1314 01:11:17,479 --> 01:11:22,799 Speaker 6: really in great detail showed that James call me Peter Struck. 1315 01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:24,879 Speaker 6: Everyone who was working on the cross for our hurricane 1316 01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:28,600 Speaker 6: investigation into the allegations of Russia collusion applied an incredibly 1317 01:11:28,600 --> 01:11:32,240 Speaker 6: different standard to Donald Trump than they did to Hillary Clinton. 1318 01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:36,840 Speaker 6: Meaning they subjected claims about Clinton's alleged corruption to much 1319 01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:41,639 Speaker 6: higher scrutiny than they did claims of Trump's collusion with Russia. 1320 01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:45,280 Speaker 6: So if Hillary Clinton was alleged to have the server, 1321 01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:47,720 Speaker 6: and did she know about it, did she not know 1322 01:11:47,800 --> 01:11:49,880 Speaker 6: about it, how was this involved, they were going to 1323 01:11:49,960 --> 01:11:52,120 Speaker 6: subject any claims about that to a really high level 1324 01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:55,839 Speaker 6: of scrutiny because actually, as you see them saying and emails, 1325 01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:58,960 Speaker 6: Durham saw they were like, well, she's probably the next 1326 01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:00,720 Speaker 6: president of the United States. We don't want it to 1327 01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:04,679 Speaker 6: turn on the DOJ or the FBI, And that really 1328 01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:07,360 Speaker 6: informed the way they went about the investigation into her 1329 01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:11,639 Speaker 6: private server, whereas with Donald Trump, they were a as 1330 01:12:11,720 --> 01:12:15,080 Speaker 6: Kevin Klinsmith did, He's actually he pleaded guilty to this 1331 01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:21,960 Speaker 6: fudging information to surveil campaign volunteers advisors. So it was 1332 01:12:22,439 --> 01:12:25,720 Speaker 6: definitely a double standard, and that's why Republicans. This is 1333 01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:29,760 Speaker 6: Chuck Grassley. He chruck. Grassley goes on Fox News last 1334 01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:33,240 Speaker 6: week and says, we aren't interested this is a really 1335 01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:35,680 Speaker 6: interesting quote. We aren't interested in whether or not the 1336 01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:41,040 Speaker 6: accusations against then Vice President Biden are accurate. Well, that 1337 01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:43,400 Speaker 6: seems so ridiculous, and the media has run with it 1338 01:12:43,439 --> 01:12:45,240 Speaker 6: and said, what do you mean you're not concerned about 1339 01:12:45,240 --> 01:12:49,559 Speaker 6: whether they're accurate. Bill Hemmer asks how damning is this 1340 01:12:49,680 --> 01:12:53,840 Speaker 6: document to the sitting US president. Grassley replies, I don't know. 1341 01:12:54,479 --> 01:12:56,400 Speaker 6: He's stressed that. Well, this is from Marco. 1342 01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:56,760 Speaker 7: Quote. 1343 01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:00,000 Speaker 6: There's accusations in the FBI report. The Congressional Overset Committee 1344 01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:03,559 Speaker 6: concern is whether quote the FBI does its job. That's 1345 01:13:03,680 --> 01:13:05,800 Speaker 6: what we wanted to know. That's what we want to know, 1346 01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:09,760 Speaker 6: Grassley said. An entirely fair question. This is the bottom line. 1347 01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:13,040 Speaker 6: That is an entirely fair question. Given the mountains of 1348 01:13:13,080 --> 01:13:16,519 Speaker 6: evidence in the Durham Report, the IG report that even 1349 01:13:16,600 --> 01:13:19,880 Speaker 6: James Comy himself recently has been saying, you know, it 1350 01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:23,720 Speaker 6: did uncover some real problems in the FBI. This is 1351 01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:27,679 Speaker 6: critical after all of that, after years of the Russia 1352 01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:32,080 Speaker 6: collision investigation, after John Durham pulls out. I think pretty 1353 01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:35,160 Speaker 6: clear evidence of a double standard. Chuck Grassley is right 1354 01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:38,840 Speaker 6: that this document is relevant, that Christopher Ray should turn 1355 01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:41,559 Speaker 6: it over, whether or not the allegations that a vice 1356 01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:44,559 Speaker 6: president sitting vice president took five million dollars to change 1357 01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:48,200 Speaker 6: his foreign policy position. Congress needs to perform its job 1358 01:13:48,240 --> 01:13:50,960 Speaker 6: and provide oversight, and the way to do that is 1359 01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:53,839 Speaker 6: to see the document on their own and to gauge 1360 01:13:53,840 --> 01:13:56,600 Speaker 6: the potential accuracy of it and to gauge whether or 1361 01:13:56,640 --> 01:13:59,320 Speaker 6: not the FBI, which had this document and is day 1362 01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:03,000 Speaker 6: to June of twenty twenty, and they have a confidential 1363 01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:07,920 Speaker 6: human source we know now was seen as quote highly credible. 1364 01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:12,040 Speaker 6: That's actually from what we know that the FBI had 1365 01:14:12,120 --> 01:14:15,959 Speaker 6: a confidential human source they considered highly credible. Total contrast 1366 01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:21,000 Speaker 6: with Igor Danchenko, who they Igor Danchenko, who they used 1367 01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:24,360 Speaker 6: as their confidential human source and crossfire or hurricane again. 1368 01:14:24,520 --> 01:14:26,760 Speaker 6: I said this last week, My eyes glaze over when 1369 01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:29,639 Speaker 6: you talk about all this stuff. It is intentionally confusing 1370 01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:34,040 Speaker 6: and complicated on the part of the FBI, the surveillance 1371 01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:36,640 Speaker 6: state because they want your eyes to glaze over. It 1372 01:14:36,680 --> 01:14:39,600 Speaker 6: helps them get away with these things. But this whistleblower 1373 01:14:39,640 --> 01:14:42,479 Speaker 6: document is not nothing. It is not something the media 1374 01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:44,960 Speaker 6: should shrug at, because Congress has a very real duty 1375 01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:49,519 Speaker 6: to ensure that the FBI is performing its role equally, 1376 01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:52,840 Speaker 6: that it's upholding the rule of law, and that it 1377 01:14:52,920 --> 01:14:57,040 Speaker 6: is using its vast, are too vast powers in a 1378 01:14:57,040 --> 01:15:00,720 Speaker 6: way that is at the very least responsible. Durham gave 1379 01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:03,040 Speaker 6: us plenty of reason to doubt that the FBI is 1380 01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:06,880 Speaker 6: doing that, and this, this document is well within the 1381 01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:10,639 Speaker 6: purview of Congress to take a look at. So with that, Ryan, 1382 01:15:10,680 --> 01:15:12,519 Speaker 6: I want to pivot to you on the question of 1383 01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:15,960 Speaker 6: the accuracy of the document. What Chuck Grassley is saying, 1384 01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:18,760 Speaker 6: I think is important, But then also whether or not 1385 01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:22,720 Speaker 6: the document is accurate is ultimately the key question. It 1386 01:15:22,800 --> 01:15:25,479 Speaker 6: sounds sensational and absurd that Joe Biden as a vice 1387 01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:28,519 Speaker 6: president would be like, yes, the price for my foreign 1388 01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:34,080 Speaker 6: policy position is five million dollars, So take that for 1389 01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:36,920 Speaker 6: what you will, highly credible, confidential, human source. I don't 1390 01:15:36,960 --> 01:15:39,679 Speaker 6: know exactly what that means in the standards of today's FBI. 1391 01:15:40,960 --> 01:15:43,519 Speaker 6: What do you make of the sort of central claim 1392 01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:48,800 Speaker 6: of the document. We mentioned this at the top of 1393 01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:51,360 Speaker 6: the show, but you landed a really big interview that 1394 01:15:51,360 --> 01:15:54,000 Speaker 6: we're super excited to bring to the counterpoints and breaking 1395 01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:56,320 Speaker 6: points audience here today. Tell us a little bit about 1396 01:15:56,720 --> 01:15:58,599 Speaker 6: what we can expect to hear from m Ron Khan. 1397 01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:01,160 Speaker 3: Yes, so extraordinarily important. 1398 01:16:01,240 --> 01:16:04,240 Speaker 4: You know, because the nation of Pakistan is a nuclear 1399 01:16:04,280 --> 01:16:07,759 Speaker 4: power with a population of two hundred and fifty million people. Today, 1400 01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:11,440 Speaker 4: you know it's facing an existential crisis as the country's 1401 01:16:11,560 --> 01:16:15,880 Speaker 4: military establishment is rapidly consolidating power and cracking down on 1402 01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:18,479 Speaker 4: the most popular political party, which is known as the PTI, 1403 01:16:19,120 --> 01:16:22,760 Speaker 4: headed by for former Prime Minister Imran Khan. Now, Khan 1404 01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:25,800 Speaker 4: is an unusual politician. He's going to be our guest 1405 01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:28,640 Speaker 4: in just a moment through a pre taped interview. And 1406 01:16:28,720 --> 01:16:33,280 Speaker 4: for decades, Cohn was the nation's most famous cricketer before 1407 01:16:33,320 --> 01:16:37,120 Speaker 4: transitioning into the there's Cohn wrapping a cricket ball or 1408 01:16:37,160 --> 01:16:39,880 Speaker 4: whatever the word is for what he's doing there. Before 1409 01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:42,880 Speaker 4: he transitioned into the world of philanthropy. He's well known 1410 01:16:42,920 --> 01:16:46,960 Speaker 4: in Pakistan for building hospitals, for supporting universities. From there, 1411 01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:50,840 Speaker 4: he moved into politics, founding the PTI and sweeping into 1412 01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:53,960 Speaker 4: power as a populist in twenty eighteen, but he had 1413 01:16:53,960 --> 01:16:56,760 Speaker 4: a slim majority, and he was ousted in a no 1414 01:16:56,880 --> 01:17:00,639 Speaker 4: confidence vote by April of twenty twenty two. Since then, 1415 01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:02,720 Speaker 4: he and his party have been the target of a 1416 01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:06,160 Speaker 4: relentless crackdown by the nation's military, which has ruled the 1417 01:17:06,200 --> 01:17:08,840 Speaker 4: country directly or indirectly for decades. 1418 01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:09,479 Speaker 3: Now. 1419 01:17:09,560 --> 01:17:12,160 Speaker 4: My earlier attempt, if you remember this, to schedule an 1420 01:17:12,200 --> 01:17:14,720 Speaker 4: interview with him was foiled when he was arrested on 1421 01:17:14,800 --> 01:17:18,200 Speaker 4: May ninth by the military and held for four days 1422 01:17:18,240 --> 01:17:22,160 Speaker 4: while the country erupted in protests, after which the Supreme 1423 01:17:22,160 --> 01:17:25,679 Speaker 4: Court ruled his detention illegal. Some of the protests turned 1424 01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:30,200 Speaker 4: violent and directly targeted officials. High officials in the military, 1425 01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:35,000 Speaker 4: and the military establishment responded by arresting most of Khan's 1426 01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:38,519 Speaker 4: senior leadership and forcing them to resign from the party 1427 01:17:38,600 --> 01:17:42,200 Speaker 4: under pressure. Now thousands of rank and file party workers 1428 01:17:42,400 --> 01:17:45,800 Speaker 4: have also been jailed. Kahn, meanwhile, is hold up in 1429 01:17:45,840 --> 01:17:48,680 Speaker 4: his home in Lahore, sifting through some one hundred and 1430 01:17:48,680 --> 01:17:51,640 Speaker 4: fifty charges of corruption and other offenses that have been 1431 01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:54,559 Speaker 4: leveled at him, charges he and his supporters dismissed as 1432 01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:55,680 Speaker 4: politically motivated. 1433 01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:56,960 Speaker 3: Yesterday, there were. 1434 01:17:56,880 --> 01:18:00,799 Speaker 4: Suggestions that they're even going to charge him, perhaps with murder. 1435 01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:05,040 Speaker 4: Yet Cohn remains a popular political figure heading into elections 1436 01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:08,080 Speaker 4: that are scheduled at least for October. We'll see if 1437 01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:09,000 Speaker 4: they actually happen. 1438 01:18:09,479 --> 01:18:10,920 Speaker 3: So in the. 1439 01:18:10,880 --> 01:18:14,080 Speaker 4: Interview, and actually I can we could place some of 1440 01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:15,880 Speaker 4: this interview now and then we can come out and 1441 01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:19,880 Speaker 4: talk about it. So here's here's Imran Khan. Were you interrogated? 1442 01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:24,120 Speaker 4: Were there any any threats direct or veiled made about 1443 01:18:24,160 --> 01:18:26,880 Speaker 4: your future role in Pakistani politics? 1444 01:18:27,680 --> 01:18:29,760 Speaker 5: I think they know me. You know, this country knows 1445 01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:31,880 Speaker 5: me for fifty years. I mean for twenty years, I 1446 01:18:31,920 --> 01:18:34,240 Speaker 5: was the leading sportsman in this country and cricket is 1447 01:18:34,240 --> 01:18:36,479 Speaker 5: the biggest sport and I was kept for ten years. 1448 01:18:37,040 --> 01:18:38,880 Speaker 5: So I was in the media for a long time, 1449 01:18:39,120 --> 01:18:45,640 Speaker 5: and then I went into Forendthropy and built up the 1450 01:18:45,680 --> 01:18:49,000 Speaker 5: biggest charitable institution, which are council hospitals and that university. 1451 01:18:49,840 --> 01:18:54,880 Speaker 5: So people know me for a long time. They know 1452 01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:57,720 Speaker 5: that I'm not going to do a back down. But 1453 01:18:57,800 --> 01:19:00,280 Speaker 5: what they're doing is, you know, I mean they have 1454 01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:04,920 Speaker 5: clearly stated to me, the establishment that whatever happens, you're 1455 01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:07,160 Speaker 5: not going to be allowed to get back into power. 1456 01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:12,000 Speaker 5: So what they're doing now is that they are dismantling 1457 01:19:12,040 --> 01:19:16,200 Speaker 5: the party, but dismantling the biggest political party, the only 1458 01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:19,639 Speaker 5: federal party in Pakistan, is dismantling our democracy. And actually 1459 01:19:19,680 --> 01:19:22,800 Speaker 5: that's what's going on all the democratic institutions. The judiciary 1460 01:19:23,320 --> 01:19:26,960 Speaker 5: it is, I mean, the judiciary today is totally inputed 1461 01:19:27,080 --> 01:19:30,840 Speaker 5: in stopping this violation of fundamental rights. The Supreme Court. 1462 01:19:30,840 --> 01:19:33,440 Speaker 5: We went to the Supreme Court according to the constitution, 1463 01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:36,000 Speaker 5: the elections in Punjab, the biggest province which is sixty 1464 01:19:36,040 --> 01:19:38,040 Speaker 5: percent of Pakistan, was supposed to be held on the 1465 01:19:38,040 --> 01:19:40,640 Speaker 5: portrenth of by the government refused. So I mean, when 1466 01:19:40,680 --> 01:19:43,479 Speaker 5: the Supreme Court orders are are not listened to, the 1467 01:19:43,960 --> 01:19:47,519 Speaker 5: judges giver give people bailed there the police picks them 1468 01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:50,720 Speaker 5: up on some other cases. So this total violation of 1469 01:19:50,760 --> 01:19:54,640 Speaker 5: fundamental rights which is going on, I think this is 1470 01:19:55,400 --> 01:19:59,200 Speaker 5: it's all an attempt to weaken me and my party 1471 01:19:59,240 --> 01:20:01,880 Speaker 5: to the point that we will not know, not be 1472 01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:05,719 Speaker 5: able to contest the elections because all the opinion polls 1473 01:20:05,720 --> 01:20:07,880 Speaker 5: show that we will win a massive majority in elections. 1474 01:20:08,160 --> 01:20:11,880 Speaker 5: Out of the thirty seven by elections, my party has 1475 01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:16,839 Speaker 5: swept thirty of them despite the establishment helping the government parties. 1476 01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:19,639 Speaker 5: So therefore they know that in a free and fair election, 1477 01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:22,479 Speaker 5: we will just sweep. Hence, all these efforts are being 1478 01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:26,479 Speaker 5: made to completely dismantle my party and weaken it to 1479 01:20:26,520 --> 01:20:29,280 Speaker 5: the point that it will not be able to contest elections. 1480 01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:32,519 Speaker 4: This is a dark moment for your country, for your party, 1481 01:20:32,560 --> 01:20:35,120 Speaker 4: as you said, for you yourself personally. But I'm curious, 1482 01:20:35,439 --> 01:20:38,479 Speaker 4: what are you looking forward to in a best case scenario. 1483 01:20:38,840 --> 01:20:41,240 Speaker 4: What's the path out of this crisis. 1484 01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:47,320 Speaker 5: It's like a crossroads. One road is leading back to 1485 01:20:47,360 --> 01:20:52,920 Speaker 5: the barrel days of military dictatorship, because that means, you know, 1486 01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:57,439 Speaker 5: we will regress the whole movement for democracy, which gradually 1487 01:20:57,520 --> 01:21:02,760 Speaker 5: evolved over a period of time. Media really, i mean 1488 01:21:03,800 --> 01:21:07,400 Speaker 5: struggle valiantly for their freedom, and we had one of 1489 01:21:07,439 --> 01:21:13,559 Speaker 5: the freest medias uh. And then a judiciary in two thousand. 1490 01:21:13,960 --> 01:21:16,800 Speaker 5: Judiciary was always subservient to the executive, but in two 1491 01:21:16,800 --> 01:21:20,320 Speaker 5: thousand and seven started a movement called the lawyers movement, 1492 01:21:20,720 --> 01:21:27,240 Speaker 5: and for the first time we the judiciary asserted its independence. 1493 01:21:28,160 --> 01:21:33,639 Speaker 5: So the whole pillars of democracy now are being rolled back. 1494 01:21:34,680 --> 01:21:39,120 Speaker 5: The whole evolution, the steady move towards a democratic country 1495 01:21:39,240 --> 01:21:43,559 Speaker 5: is now all at stake. So either we allow this 1496 01:21:43,640 --> 01:21:47,560 Speaker 5: to go where it is going towards a military dictatorship. 1497 01:21:48,320 --> 01:21:52,160 Speaker 5: The other is, you know, we all try and all 1498 01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:56,639 Speaker 5: the democratic forces get together and strive for getting back 1499 01:21:56,680 --> 01:21:59,480 Speaker 5: to rule of law, democracy and free and fair elections. 1500 01:22:00,080 --> 01:22:05,160 Speaker 4: As you confront this potential long term military dictatorship, how 1501 01:22:05,160 --> 01:22:07,920 Speaker 4: does it make you think back on your own support 1502 01:22:07,960 --> 01:22:11,000 Speaker 4: of the military in the you know, the purpose situation, 1503 01:22:11,040 --> 01:22:14,520 Speaker 4: the coup of Purpose Mishar or or having the military's 1504 01:22:14,640 --> 01:22:18,559 Speaker 4: you know, indirect support in your own election. But do 1505 01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:20,680 Speaker 4: you feel like there was a way to accomplish that 1506 01:22:20,720 --> 01:22:24,759 Speaker 4: without the military, or is Pakistan in a situation that 1507 01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:27,040 Speaker 4: that reform is only possible through that institution? 1508 01:22:27,600 --> 01:22:31,840 Speaker 5: Well, you know, just to make a correction. Minus the 1509 01:22:31,880 --> 01:22:37,799 Speaker 5: only party that was never manufactured by the military People's 1510 01:22:37,800 --> 01:22:42,120 Speaker 5: Party Zulfikarli Berto. He served a dictator for eight years 1511 01:22:42,160 --> 01:22:46,839 Speaker 5: before he formed his party. The other the second party 1512 01:22:46,920 --> 01:22:52,960 Speaker 5: is PM Mellen. The head of PM Mellen was actually 1513 01:22:53,040 --> 01:22:55,920 Speaker 5: nurtured by General Za's dictatorship. I mean he was a 1514 01:22:55,920 --> 01:22:58,880 Speaker 5: non entity, so he was actually a product of his 1515 01:22:58,920 --> 01:23:03,160 Speaker 5: military dictatorship. Minus the only party for twenty two years 1516 01:23:03,240 --> 01:23:06,120 Speaker 5: from scratch, I started and actually broke through a two 1517 01:23:06,120 --> 01:23:09,800 Speaker 5: party system in the twenty eighteen election. The army didn't 1518 01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:12,960 Speaker 5: oppose me, but they didn't help us in winning the elections. 1519 01:23:12,960 --> 01:23:17,000 Speaker 5: The elections weren't rigged, because it should be now obvious 1520 01:23:17,920 --> 01:23:23,000 Speaker 5: now despite the army the establishment standing behind the government, 1521 01:23:23,880 --> 01:23:26,559 Speaker 5: we've swept thirty out of thirty seven by elections and 1522 01:23:27,280 --> 01:23:29,599 Speaker 5: all opinion polls show that we are way ahead of everyone, 1523 01:23:29,600 --> 01:23:32,639 Speaker 5: allust sixty to seventy percent rating. And the other thing 1524 01:23:32,640 --> 01:23:35,920 Speaker 5: I want to say is how is it different When 1525 01:23:35,920 --> 01:23:40,800 Speaker 5: a Yukhn't the first military dictator took over the majority 1526 01:23:40,840 --> 01:23:44,920 Speaker 5: of the population backed him because at that time we 1527 01:23:44,920 --> 01:23:48,040 Speaker 5: were very insecure and the army was the bestion of security. 1528 01:23:48,680 --> 01:23:56,320 Speaker 5: When Ziaulaka deposed Zulfakari Botto, the second military dictator, half 1529 01:23:56,360 --> 01:23:59,960 Speaker 5: the population supported him. Half the vote was for Boto, 1530 01:24:00,080 --> 01:24:03,360 Speaker 5: about half the vote went against him. When General Musherav 1531 01:24:04,360 --> 01:24:07,679 Speaker 5: wound up our democracy in ninety nine, he had eighty 1532 01:24:07,760 --> 01:24:10,320 Speaker 5: percent rating in Pakistan because he came on an anti 1533 01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:14,480 Speaker 5: corruption platform. But this is a unique time in Pakistan. 1534 01:24:15,680 --> 01:24:20,440 Speaker 5: The almost the entire country is standing now for democracy. 1535 01:24:21,080 --> 01:24:24,840 Speaker 5: They are no takers for military dictatorship anymore. So it's 1536 01:24:24,880 --> 01:24:28,559 Speaker 5: a unique situation because we are thought processes evolved to 1537 01:24:28,600 --> 01:24:32,519 Speaker 5: the point now where there's a consensus in Pakistan that 1538 01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:36,520 Speaker 5: a bad democracy is better than a military dictatorship. 1539 01:24:36,800 --> 01:24:39,680 Speaker 4: It feels like the military may see this crisis and 1540 01:24:39,760 --> 01:24:43,479 Speaker 4: this conflict as existential for them, that given what you've 1541 01:24:43,520 --> 01:24:47,280 Speaker 4: said that the country, the population has now turned against them, 1542 01:24:47,760 --> 01:24:50,360 Speaker 4: if they lose power, they may be pushed off the 1543 01:24:50,400 --> 01:24:56,360 Speaker 4: stage entirely and so cornered that you may that may 1544 01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:59,360 Speaker 4: explain some of the reactions that you're seeing. So how 1545 01:24:59,400 --> 01:25:02,360 Speaker 4: do you how do you navigate that situation where they 1546 01:25:02,400 --> 01:25:09,479 Speaker 4: currently have you literally and politically surrounded, but if you escape, 1547 01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:12,280 Speaker 4: they face an existential crisis. 1548 01:25:12,760 --> 01:25:15,080 Speaker 5: When I was in three and a half years in power, 1549 01:25:16,240 --> 01:25:18,599 Speaker 5: I mean, I recognize that, you know, you can't wish 1550 01:25:18,600 --> 01:25:21,200 Speaker 5: away the military. You know, you have to work with them, 1551 01:25:21,240 --> 01:25:25,960 Speaker 5: because they've been entrenched for seventy years directly or entry directly, 1552 01:25:26,000 --> 01:25:30,559 Speaker 5: they ruled this country. So I work with the army chief. 1553 01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:33,680 Speaker 5: And apart from the fact that he would not he 1554 01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:37,120 Speaker 5: did not understand what rule of law meant or didn't 1555 01:25:37,120 --> 01:25:41,200 Speaker 5: want to understand. Apart from that, we sort of, you know, 1556 01:25:41,520 --> 01:25:45,879 Speaker 5: we had a working relationship. When and why he decided 1557 01:25:45,920 --> 01:25:48,840 Speaker 5: to pull the rug under my feet. I still don't know. 1558 01:25:49,560 --> 01:25:51,800 Speaker 5: I mean, at what point he decided that this is, 1559 01:25:52,040 --> 01:25:56,479 Speaker 5: you know, I was dangerous to the country. Why he 1560 01:25:56,640 --> 01:26:00,320 Speaker 5: decided to change horses Because he backed the current prime 1561 01:26:00,320 --> 01:26:05,679 Speaker 5: minister who was facing massive corruption cases. And so why 1562 01:26:05,760 --> 01:26:09,559 Speaker 5: he decided to do that. I think my hunch is 1563 01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:13,800 Speaker 5: that he wanted an extension and the and the current 1564 01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:16,519 Speaker 5: prime minister had promised him that. I guess that's the reason. 1565 01:26:17,120 --> 01:26:20,600 Speaker 5: But really he's the best he would know why. I 1566 01:26:20,640 --> 01:26:26,240 Speaker 5: don't know why. So my point is, you know, the 1567 01:26:26,280 --> 01:26:31,400 Speaker 5: way Pakistan has been run a hybrid system. It just 1568 01:26:31,479 --> 01:26:34,719 Speaker 5: cannot be run like this anymore. We are now facing 1569 01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:39,519 Speaker 5: the worst economic crisis in our history. And my point 1570 01:26:39,680 --> 01:26:44,639 Speaker 5: is that, you know, when I've said, I've offered talks 1571 01:26:44,680 --> 01:26:47,640 Speaker 5: to the to the military, I've said, look to the 1572 01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:52,360 Speaker 5: army chief, but so far there's no response. My point 1573 01:26:52,479 --> 01:26:56,479 Speaker 5: is that the hybrid system cannot work any longer because 1574 01:26:56,479 --> 01:26:58,920 Speaker 5: if a prime minister has the public mandate and the 1575 01:26:58,960 --> 01:27:04,160 Speaker 5: responsibility to deliver, he must have the authority. He can't 1576 01:27:04,240 --> 01:27:09,400 Speaker 5: have a situation where he has the responsibility but the authority. 1577 01:27:10,479 --> 01:27:14,720 Speaker 5: Most of the authority lies with the military establishment. So 1578 01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:17,800 Speaker 5: a new equilibrium has to be made. You have to 1579 01:27:17,880 --> 01:27:21,439 Speaker 5: have some sort of an arrangement where you know, certain 1580 01:27:21,520 --> 01:27:27,120 Speaker 5: issues just have to be delivered in Pakistan. Pakistan cannot 1581 01:27:27,160 --> 01:27:31,280 Speaker 5: do without rule of law now, because we cannot get 1582 01:27:31,320 --> 01:27:34,680 Speaker 5: out of this economic mess unless we attracted an investment. 1583 01:27:35,360 --> 01:27:39,040 Speaker 5: But investment from abroad does not come to a country 1584 01:27:39,640 --> 01:27:43,439 Speaker 5: where people do not have confidence in their justice system 1585 01:27:43,439 --> 01:27:47,479 Speaker 5: and the legal system and their contract enforcement. And therefore 1586 01:27:47,520 --> 01:27:50,040 Speaker 5: they go Pakistani go and invest in the Way and 1587 01:27:50,200 --> 01:27:53,760 Speaker 5: other countries. But the plan invest in this country. We 1588 01:27:53,840 --> 01:27:58,800 Speaker 5: have ten million Pakistanis. If we could only get five 1589 01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:01,320 Speaker 5: percent of them invest in this country, we wouldn't have 1590 01:28:01,360 --> 01:28:05,200 Speaker 5: any problems. But they do not have faith in our 1591 01:28:05,320 --> 01:28:07,439 Speaker 5: justice system. We are out of the one hundred and 1592 01:28:07,520 --> 01:28:12,040 Speaker 5: forty countries and the rule of law index Pakistan is 1593 01:28:12,040 --> 01:28:16,439 Speaker 5: one twenty nine. So with that sort of you know, 1594 01:28:17,280 --> 01:28:20,400 Speaker 5: a lack of rule of law, I'm afraid the country's 1595 01:28:20,400 --> 01:28:23,840 Speaker 5: survival did that stake. So hence a new equilibrium has 1596 01:28:23,880 --> 01:28:26,320 Speaker 5: to be made with the military establishment. 1597 01:28:26,720 --> 01:28:27,360 Speaker 3: Final question. 1598 01:28:27,560 --> 01:28:30,000 Speaker 4: I know you said that you believe that the driver 1599 01:28:30,200 --> 01:28:35,080 Speaker 4: of your ulster was clearly internal and not driven from outside, 1600 01:28:35,479 --> 01:28:38,960 Speaker 4: But I'm also curious given that the US expressed its 1601 01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:42,519 Speaker 4: private approval for you to for you to be pushed 1602 01:28:42,560 --> 01:28:45,000 Speaker 4: out of office through a no confidence vote. I'm wondering 1603 01:28:45,040 --> 01:28:48,200 Speaker 4: what it was that you think drove the United States 1604 01:28:48,280 --> 01:28:49,920 Speaker 4: that position. Do you think it had something to do 1605 01:28:50,479 --> 01:28:52,519 Speaker 4: with your willingness to work with the Taliban after the 1606 01:28:52,560 --> 01:28:54,559 Speaker 4: Taliban took over, to think it had something to do 1607 01:28:54,640 --> 01:28:58,120 Speaker 4: with the war in Ukraine, or what is your read 1608 01:28:58,200 --> 01:29:00,719 Speaker 4: of the geopolitics that would have led the United States 1609 01:29:01,280 --> 01:29:05,000 Speaker 4: to go from supportive to willing to see you thrown out. 1610 01:29:05,640 --> 01:29:09,400 Speaker 5: Well, for a start, you know the war. Trump administration 1611 01:29:09,479 --> 01:29:13,679 Speaker 5: acknowledged that. I was the one who consistently kept saying 1612 01:29:13,680 --> 01:29:16,360 Speaker 5: there was not going to be a military solution in Afghanistan. 1613 01:29:16,960 --> 01:29:20,360 Speaker 5: It's because I know Afghanistan. I know the history and 1614 01:29:20,880 --> 01:29:26,400 Speaker 5: the province, the Pushtun province. Remember Afhanistan as fifty percent Pushtoons, 1615 01:29:27,000 --> 01:29:32,880 Speaker 5: but the Pushtun population is twice as much in Pakistan. 1616 01:29:32,960 --> 01:29:36,000 Speaker 5: And my province where I first got into Paris is 1617 01:29:36,040 --> 01:29:39,960 Speaker 5: the Pushtun province bordering Afghanistan. So I kept saying there 1618 01:29:40,000 --> 01:29:44,720 Speaker 5: would not be any military solution. Trump administration acknowledged it, 1619 01:29:45,920 --> 01:29:48,520 Speaker 5: and they finally went when he decided to the withdrawal, 1620 01:29:48,640 --> 01:29:51,840 Speaker 5: he understood there was not going to be a military solution. 1621 01:29:52,760 --> 01:29:55,800 Speaker 5: But I think this was taken wrong by the Biden administration. 1622 01:29:55,920 --> 01:29:59,080 Speaker 5: There someone thought I was critical of the Americans and 1623 01:29:59,120 --> 01:30:04,040 Speaker 5: I was sort of pro Taliban. It's total nonsense. It's 1624 01:30:04,080 --> 01:30:07,600 Speaker 5: just simply that anyone who knows the history of Afghanistan 1625 01:30:08,360 --> 01:30:12,600 Speaker 5: just knows that you will they have a problem with outsiders. 1626 01:30:13,040 --> 01:30:16,360 Speaker 5: So the same happened with the British and the nineteenth century, 1627 01:30:16,680 --> 01:30:19,840 Speaker 5: the Soviets in the twentieth century, exactly the same was 1628 01:30:19,840 --> 01:30:23,240 Speaker 5: happening with the US. But it's just that no one 1629 01:30:23,320 --> 01:30:26,559 Speaker 5: knew that, and so I think that was one reason. Secondly, 1630 01:30:26,560 --> 01:30:29,479 Speaker 5: I was anti the War on Terror in Pakistan because 1631 01:30:29,520 --> 01:30:34,839 Speaker 5: remember Pakistan. Pakistan first of all, in the eighties created 1632 01:30:34,880 --> 01:30:41,839 Speaker 5: the Mujahideen mujai Deen who were conducting a gorilla warfare 1633 01:30:42,120 --> 01:30:45,599 Speaker 5: against the Soviets. So it was from Pakistani soil. And 1634 01:30:45,640 --> 01:30:50,320 Speaker 5: we we told them that doing jihad, Jihad means fighting 1635 01:30:50,320 --> 01:30:56,200 Speaker 5: foreign occupation. Is is your heroes, It is a you know, 1636 01:30:56,240 --> 01:31:01,200 Speaker 5: we encouraged it. Now come ten years later, once the 1637 01:31:01,240 --> 01:31:05,080 Speaker 5: Soviets had left the US lands in Ughanistan, you're told 1638 01:31:05,080 --> 01:31:08,920 Speaker 5: that this was heroism to fight foreign occupation. How are 1639 01:31:08,960 --> 01:31:11,040 Speaker 5: you going to tell them that now that the Americans 1640 01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:16,559 Speaker 5: are there, it's terrorism. So that's what happened. The moment 1641 01:31:16,600 --> 01:31:19,960 Speaker 5: we joined the US War on Terror, they turned against US. 1642 01:31:20,360 --> 01:31:26,559 Speaker 5: Eighty thousand Pakis died. I mean Pakistan. No ally of 1643 01:31:26,760 --> 01:31:30,640 Speaker 5: US has taken such heavy casualties as Pakistan did. And 1644 01:31:30,680 --> 01:31:34,160 Speaker 5: in the end we couldn't help the US either, because 1645 01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:36,960 Speaker 5: we were trying to save ourselves. There were forty different 1646 01:31:37,000 --> 01:31:42,240 Speaker 5: militant groups. At what point working against the government. Islam 1647 01:31:42,360 --> 01:31:46,160 Speaker 5: Wa was like under siege, their suicide attacks everywhere. We 1648 01:31:46,200 --> 01:31:49,679 Speaker 5: had no investment coming in the country. Well, economy tanked. 1649 01:31:50,040 --> 01:31:53,559 Speaker 5: So I think my opposition to the war on terror 1650 01:31:53,640 --> 01:31:56,120 Speaker 5: also was perceived as being anti American, which is not 1651 01:31:56,560 --> 01:32:00,720 Speaker 5: is just being nationalistic about your own country. With Taliban, 1652 01:32:00,920 --> 01:32:05,040 Speaker 5: I mean, when the Taliban took over. Frankly, whichever government 1653 01:32:05,080 --> 01:32:08,040 Speaker 5: is in Afghanistan, Pakistan has to have good relationship with them. 1654 01:32:08,120 --> 01:32:10,240 Speaker 5: We have two and a half thousand kilometer border with them. 1655 01:32:10,520 --> 01:32:15,320 Speaker 5: We have three million Ofvan refugees here. And when the 1656 01:32:15,439 --> 01:32:19,400 Speaker 5: RUnni government before that, I went to Afhanistan Kabul to 1657 01:32:19,439 --> 01:32:22,320 Speaker 5: meet him, I invited him to Pakistan. We tried our 1658 01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:25,320 Speaker 5: best to have good relationship with them. So whoever is 1659 01:32:25,360 --> 01:32:29,360 Speaker 5: in power in Afghanistan Pakistan has to have good relationship 1660 01:32:29,400 --> 01:32:33,040 Speaker 5: because at one point during the previous government, there were 1661 01:32:33,120 --> 01:32:38,640 Speaker 5: three different terrorist groups using Aflhan Terror to attack Pakistan, 1662 01:32:38,720 --> 01:32:45,439 Speaker 5: the isl Pakistani Taliban, and the Baloch Liberation Organization. Three 1663 01:32:45,520 --> 01:32:48,720 Speaker 5: different groups were attacking us. So therefore you need a 1664 01:32:48,760 --> 01:32:52,000 Speaker 5: government in Afghanistan which which would be helpful. So it 1665 01:32:52,080 --> 01:32:56,320 Speaker 5: was not pro Taliban, It's basically pro Pakistan, as any 1666 01:32:56,880 --> 01:33:00,760 Speaker 5: anyone who cares about his country would make those decisions. 1667 01:33:01,080 --> 01:33:03,519 Speaker 4: For a full transcript of my interview, you can find 1668 01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:05,759 Speaker 4: that over at the Intercept dot com. You can listen 1669 01:33:05,800 --> 01:33:09,639 Speaker 4: to the entire interview over at my Intercept podcast, which 1670 01:33:09,680 --> 01:33:14,559 Speaker 4: is called Deconstructed. In that interview, he made claims against 1671 01:33:14,800 --> 01:33:19,639 Speaker 4: former Pakistan Ambassador to the United States Hassan Hakani. Hussein 1672 01:33:19,720 --> 01:33:23,040 Speaker 4: Hakani my apologies and I reached out to him for comment. 1673 01:33:23,160 --> 01:33:27,240 Speaker 4: He denied Khan's allegation that he had lobbied the United 1674 01:33:27,240 --> 01:33:30,360 Speaker 4: States against Khan. I also reached out to the State 1675 01:33:30,400 --> 01:33:33,880 Speaker 4: Department for comment, and I will read that here. The 1676 01:33:33,920 --> 01:33:36,840 Speaker 4: State Department says, quote, our message has been clear and 1677 01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:40,080 Speaker 4: consistent on this. We support the peaceful upholding of constitutional 1678 01:33:40,160 --> 01:33:43,080 Speaker 4: democratic principles, including respect for human rights. We do not support, 1679 01:33:43,240 --> 01:33:45,559 Speaker 4: whether it's in Pakistan or anywhere else around the world, 1680 01:33:45,760 --> 01:33:49,960 Speaker 4: one political party over another. We support broader principles, including 1681 01:33:49,960 --> 01:33:52,160 Speaker 4: the rule of law and equal justice under the law. 1682 01:33:52,600 --> 01:33:55,160 Speaker 4: On the War on Terror and the Taliban, United States 1683 01:33:55,160 --> 01:33:57,799 Speaker 4: and Pakistan have a shared interest in ensuring the Taliban 1684 01:33:57,920 --> 01:33:59,759 Speaker 4: live up to the commitments that they have made. 1685 01:34:00,200 --> 01:34:02,080 Speaker 3: Terrorist groups that may be active. 1686 01:34:01,800 --> 01:34:05,520 Speaker 4: In Afghanistan are no longer able to threaten regional stability. 1687 01:34:05,880 --> 01:34:09,920 Speaker 4: Emily Imran Khan fascinating political figures in some ways kind 1688 01:34:09,920 --> 01:34:14,160 Speaker 4: of I would think, maybe an ideal populist right candidate 1689 01:34:14,680 --> 01:34:17,800 Speaker 4: that you guys might wish you had somebody like that 1690 01:34:18,439 --> 01:34:19,719 Speaker 4: over here in the United States. 1691 01:34:21,040 --> 01:34:24,920 Speaker 6: Fascinating and just I think your interview really brought that 1692 01:34:25,040 --> 01:34:28,479 Speaker 6: side in Immran Khan to the forefront, because it's also 1693 01:34:28,479 --> 01:34:34,400 Speaker 6: a personality thing and the sort of politics that he espouses. 1694 01:34:34,880 --> 01:34:37,960 Speaker 6: Then to see that translated through I think the political 1695 01:34:38,000 --> 01:34:40,920 Speaker 6: personality is just it is a very interesting combination. He's 1696 01:34:40,920 --> 01:34:44,400 Speaker 6: such an important international figure that gets I think probably 1697 01:34:44,439 --> 01:34:47,200 Speaker 6: too little attention on the world stage. Is probably one 1698 01:34:47,200 --> 01:34:49,240 Speaker 6: of the more if you follow foreign policy stuff. I mean, 1699 01:34:49,280 --> 01:34:53,800 Speaker 6: people know his name, but his central importance to world 1700 01:34:53,840 --> 01:34:57,080 Speaker 6: politics right now I think is disproportionate to the media's 1701 01:34:57,120 --> 01:35:00,639 Speaker 6: interest in his story. So I thought that was fantastic interview, 1702 01:35:00,760 --> 01:35:02,599 Speaker 6: and I'm so glad that you were able to bring 1703 01:35:02,640 --> 01:35:05,200 Speaker 6: it to the audience here and just a small process. 1704 01:35:05,280 --> 01:35:08,080 Speaker 7: Note, folks can imagine. 1705 01:35:07,920 --> 01:35:12,599 Speaker 6: How interesting it was for you to negotiate getting an 1706 01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:15,280 Speaker 6: interview with somebody who is in a position like him, 1707 01:35:15,320 --> 01:35:17,120 Speaker 6: Ron Khan. I mean you can see it like in 1708 01:35:17,240 --> 01:35:19,720 Speaker 6: the internet a little bit. You can see it in 1709 01:35:20,840 --> 01:35:22,600 Speaker 6: just some of your questions. 1710 01:35:22,960 --> 01:35:24,560 Speaker 7: Not an easy. 1711 01:35:24,400 --> 01:35:26,799 Speaker 6: Interview to land, but also just not an easy interview 1712 01:35:26,800 --> 01:35:30,679 Speaker 6: to make happen when you have so many obstacles, political 1713 01:35:30,760 --> 01:35:34,320 Speaker 6: obstacles to just like using the internet and talking to journalists. 1714 01:35:34,680 --> 01:35:36,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think part of it is that he's so 1715 01:35:36,479 --> 01:35:41,519 Speaker 4: constricted in Pakistan that one of the few avenues for 1716 01:35:41,600 --> 01:35:45,360 Speaker 4: him left is to start doing these kind of international interviews. 1717 01:35:45,360 --> 01:35:47,880 Speaker 4: So I think our ability to kind of get him 1718 01:35:48,600 --> 01:35:52,719 Speaker 4: had to do with how cornered he is politically back home. 1719 01:35:53,760 --> 01:35:57,719 Speaker 4: So next week we'll be back in our brand new studio. 1720 01:35:57,880 --> 01:36:01,639 Speaker 4: I was in Boyertown, Pennsylvania for my cousin Lady Grimm's 1721 01:36:01,800 --> 01:36:04,439 Speaker 4: high school graduation this weekn and met a guy named 1722 01:36:04,560 --> 01:36:07,280 Speaker 4: Justin who was maybe he's watching now. 1723 01:36:07,320 --> 01:36:08,439 Speaker 3: He's a big Counterpoints fan. 1724 01:36:08,479 --> 01:36:11,920 Speaker 4: I was able to show him pictures of the studio 1725 01:36:11,920 --> 01:36:13,479 Speaker 4: and he's like, wow, I didn't even have to pay 1726 01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:17,720 Speaker 4: for this, And so everybody's going to get to see 1727 01:36:17,760 --> 01:36:20,320 Speaker 4: the new studio next week. What's what's your take on 1728 01:36:20,360 --> 01:36:21,280 Speaker 4: what you've seen so far? 1729 01:36:22,439 --> 01:36:25,720 Speaker 6: I think it's amazing and thank you so much to 1730 01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:28,600 Speaker 6: the viewers who make it possible. It's you know, I 1731 01:36:28,680 --> 01:36:31,760 Speaker 6: think it's soccer always makes a really important point about, uh, 1732 01:36:31,960 --> 01:36:38,120 Speaker 6: the why we need to take on not just be someone, 1733 01:36:38,280 --> 01:36:41,559 Speaker 6: you know, sort of broadcasting from their basement with an 1734 01:36:41,680 --> 01:36:45,080 Speaker 6: xbox headset. I don't mean to be offensive at all, 1735 01:36:45,120 --> 01:36:47,639 Speaker 6: but like we're here in d C, and uh, there 1736 01:36:47,680 --> 01:36:50,479 Speaker 6: are people, because of the rise of independent media, who 1737 01:36:50,560 --> 01:36:53,960 Speaker 6: are going to have conversations with the Breaking Points team 1738 01:36:54,160 --> 01:36:55,920 Speaker 6: and you're going to see some of those big names 1739 01:36:55,960 --> 01:36:59,240 Speaker 6: next week. And the new set design is just a 1740 01:36:59,280 --> 01:37:01,960 Speaker 6: real l vation that I think is going to allow 1741 01:37:02,000 --> 01:37:06,040 Speaker 6: Breaking Points to keep growing and to draw big names 1742 01:37:06,240 --> 01:37:10,439 Speaker 6: more viewers. So we're just beyond grateful to all of you, 1743 01:37:10,560 --> 01:37:11,960 Speaker 6: and so excited for you to see it. 1744 01:37:12,680 --> 01:37:15,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, and we could keep the bricks around and still 1745 01:37:15,120 --> 01:37:18,519 Speaker 4: do kind of moonlight with an open mic comedy night 1746 01:37:18,600 --> 01:37:20,280 Speaker 4: or something, and Washington DC. 1747 01:37:21,160 --> 01:37:21,760 Speaker 7: It'll be like. 1748 01:37:22,200 --> 01:37:24,840 Speaker 6: How you know, various museums have different pieces of the 1749 01:37:24,840 --> 01:37:29,439 Speaker 6: Berlin Wall. We'll give different places epting. 1750 01:37:30,800 --> 01:37:33,680 Speaker 3: Wait, these are fake bricks. This is outrageous. 1751 01:37:33,960 --> 01:37:35,760 Speaker 6: We could have just poked holes in it the whole time. 1752 01:37:36,040 --> 01:37:38,679 Speaker 4: Yes, all right, Well, we'll see you there in studio 1753 01:37:38,760 --> 01:37:39,920 Speaker 4: next week