1 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: Hey, it's sucksha. Each week you lend me your ears, 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,159 Speaker 1: and now I'd like to hear from you. Do you 3 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:10,960 Speaker 1: have a burning question about climate, green tech or the 4 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: future of the planet. Please send your questions to us 5 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 1: in writing or as a voice memo to zero pod 6 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: ad Bloomberg dot net and we'll make an episode answering them. 7 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: Please do include your name and where you're based. Thank you. 8 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero I am Akshatrati. This week inside the 9 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: Mind of a Climate BC. Climate tech is not the 10 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,240 Speaker 1: hot investor thesis it was just a few years ago. 11 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: After several record breaking years and billions of dollars being 12 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: poured into climate startups, venture capital investments are way down 13 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 1: lower than they were in twenty nineteen. According to PwC. 14 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: Much of the hot money has now moved to AI. 15 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: In all that time, though, the importance of investing in 16 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: climate solutions has only grown, and so has the number 17 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: of people working on them, bringing in skills and expertise, 18 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: often from other industries, into the climate solution space. Mike 19 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: Shrepfer is one of them. 20 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: Energy access has become a boardroom conversation in a way 21 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 2: that wasn't true, like literally four years ago. If I 22 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 2: don't have access to energy, I can't build the compute 23 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,679 Speaker 2: power I need. I can't build the data services, the 24 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 2: AI models, and I may lose out to my competition. 25 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: From twenty thirteen to twenty twenty two, Mike Shrepfer was 26 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: the chief technology officer at Meta, the company behind Facebook, Instagram, WhatsApp, 27 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: and Oculus. There he helped build out Meta's data centers 28 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: globally and led the integration of manufacturing the Oculus virtual 29 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: reality headset. After leaving Meta in twenty twenty three, he 30 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: founded Gigascale Capital, a VC firm specializing in climate tech. 31 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: Gigascale has invested in a wide range of companies, from 32 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: those trying to create green steel and crackt nuclear fusion 33 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,839 Speaker 1: to ones trying to vaccinate cattle to reduce methane verbs. 34 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: Mike also founded Additional Mentors, a philanthropy that focuses on 35 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: early stage research in biomedical and climate science. So I 36 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: wanted to ask Mike how does he see the climate 37 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: tech landscape in twenty twenty five, What are the challenges 38 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: of manufacturing in the US versus China, And how does 39 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: data center demand lead to innovation in energy? Mike Welcome 40 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: to the show. 41 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:44,959 Speaker 2: Thank you, glad to be here. 42 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 1: So you've come to investing in climate from a different 43 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: background than most people coming to investing in climate have. 44 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: You've come from scaling companies in the software sector, working 45 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: at large software companies, but now you're doing something that 46 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: is much more hardware focused. Most of climate tech solutions 47 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: tend to be building things in the real world. What 48 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 1: have you found that's different thinking about companies that do 49 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: hardware rather than software. 50 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: Well, I want to correct one thing, which is most 51 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 2: people think of Facebook as a software company. But three 52 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 2: years into the job, in twenty eleven, I started building 53 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 2: data centers. So I built ten million plus square feet 54 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 2: of data centers and seventeen regions all around the world, 55 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 2: you know, over a decade or something. And then a 56 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: few years after that, we bought this little company called Oculus, 57 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 2: which I ran the integration of, and we started shipping 58 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 2: consumer hardware. So if you've ever used an Oculus Quest 59 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 2: or Rayman Meta smart glasses, you've used one of our products. 60 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 2: And so I've you know, I've had all the joys 61 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 2: and pains of building enterprise hardware and industrial scale and 62 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 2: the double challenges of scaling consumer hardware, all the fun 63 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: and pain of doing that, and trying to make margin 64 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 2: on a product that consumers can return to the store 65 00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 2: if they don't like a wider scale of things. I 66 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 2: think than most people when they think of Facebook, think 67 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 2: about so the jump to climateech, which part of the 68 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 2: appeal of it was actually taking those learnings. You know, 69 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: I've shipped millions of devices and a built scale from 70 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 2: scratch that very few people have, and so I think 71 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 2: all of those apply. If you look at a portfolio. 72 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 2: We have consumer hardware products, we have consumer software products, 73 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: we have enterprise hardware products, and I think it's all 74 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 2: stuff I've worked on before. 75 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: But in terms of what you need to do in 76 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 1: climate it tends to be products that are either just 77 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: greener versions of existing things, or they are in going 78 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: into a market where the margin is not that high, 79 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: whereas tech hardware products tend to have the capacity, at 80 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,479 Speaker 1: least not initially, but when they're scale to have a 81 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: large margin. So it's still a harder challenge or a 82 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:46,320 Speaker 1: different challenge. 83 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 2: Right, Well, everything is different, every market is different, and 84 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 2: I'd say that generally I'm looking for products to begin 85 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 2: with that have some sort of massive advantage the right 86 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 2: to win as a startup means you're coming in with 87 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 2: a five x or more. Why is this product uniquely 88 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 2: good or uniquely different? 89 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: You know. 90 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 2: I'll just give you the example of Mill, which is 91 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 2: a one of our investments. It's a home composting device. 92 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 2: So it looks like a trash can, but you throw 93 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: your food waste into it, and then overnight it grinds 94 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 2: it and dehydrates it and sort of shrinks it down. 95 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 2: So a normal family, after a month's worth of food waste, 96 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 2: gets something about the size of a shoe box that 97 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 2: looks like coffee grounds and doesn't smell. 98 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: You know. 99 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 2: The pitch consumers is pretty simple. It's like, do you 100 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 2: enjoy taking out your trash? Do you like it when 101 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 2: your trash smells? The answer to most people know it's like, great, 102 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: your trash doesn't smell. You have to take it out 103 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 2: a lot less. Oh and by the way, we're massively 104 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 2: reducing methane emissions from food waste. And this is the 105 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: sort of product that once someone gets one, you'll know 106 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 2: about it because they will tell you multiple times how 107 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 2: awesome the mill is. They have a what's called a 108 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 2: net promoter score higher than having shipped consumer products and 109 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 2: know how hard it is to get those higher than 110 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 2: most I've seen, and so that that was the first unlock, 111 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: was like, wow, this is something people really like. The 112 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: very next question said how much does this thing cost 113 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 2: to make? So they showed me the bill of material, 114 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 2: so like, okay, to make this profitable, we have to 115 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 2: get the bomb from X to Y, and I just 116 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 2: went through the thing and said, like, yep, we can 117 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 2: do that. And in between the investing window of when 118 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 2: I invested in now they've made massive progress. It's going 119 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 2: to be a great business, going to be profitable. They've 120 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 2: done twenty million in revenue in the last twelve months. 121 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 2: And then there's opportunities to do bigger commercial engagements, you know, 122 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 2: with offices and other people who have massive food waste problems. So, 123 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: you know, I think it's an example of like trying 124 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 2: to take some of those skills and learnings and apply 125 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 2: them in these spaces. 126 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:32,919 Speaker 1: Well, most of the tech products that you've shipped that 127 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,239 Speaker 1: are being shipped today tend to be made in China, 128 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: whereas mill made. 129 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 2: It's got a diverse supply base. You know, I think 130 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 2: they haven't disclosed exactly where it's made. But it's a 131 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 2: diverse supply base and they're doing just fine with the tariffs. 132 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 2: So I'll just say that much. 133 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: If you think about the moment that we are in, 134 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: is there anything about policy changes, the directions tariffs that 135 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 1: have made you rethink your own climate investing, not just principles, 136 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: but areas that you would like to invest in going forward. 137 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that I sort of got 138 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 2: to investing almost by accident. I didn't start out saying 139 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 2: I want to be an investor, I want to be 140 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 2: a climate investor. I start out saying, like, I want 141 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 2: to start dedicating my time, expertise, and resources towards the 142 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 2: climate crisis. And I you know, I started on the 143 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: filanthropic side with with funding science and funding policy, and 144 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 2: then realized that, like, you know, the way a lot 145 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: of these markets get transformed is through businesses. You know, 146 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 2: if you think about like where would we be in 147 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 2: the electric car without Tesla, Where would we be in 148 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: space without SpaceX, Where it would be of the vaccines 149 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 2: without Madarna on others? And looking at that and thinking 150 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 2: about investing coming from this angle made me from the 151 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 2: very beginning say, look, you can call it climate. You 152 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:44,559 Speaker 2: can do these are companies. They need to make money. 153 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: That's the definition of a company. They need to sell 154 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 2: a product that people want for you know, less than 155 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 2: what it costs for more than what it cost them 156 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 2: to make It is the basics of a business. Having 157 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: not gone to business school, that's my one a one 158 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 2: for business and so it caused us to really focus 159 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 2: on areas where that was possible, and there were some 160 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 2: technological edge, some change in the market sort of opened 161 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 2: a window. And having been a tech a long time, 162 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: what I like is exponential trends in your favor. So 163 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 2: what's been powering AI, for example, is like increase in 164 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 2: data and increase in compute power, and those are things 165 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 2: that happen, you know, whether I go to work every 166 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 2: day or not. So that's awesome. I think you see 167 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 2: the same trends at the same scale for battery prices, 168 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: for example, battery pack, battery sell prices. So if I'm 169 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 2: trying to build a new business that's based on batteries, 170 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 2: like my input costs are going down without me doing 171 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 2: any work, and that's amazing. That means that I'm getting 172 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 2: more and more competitive, you know, day by day, and 173 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 2: so we look for businesses like that where you have 174 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 2: some tailwind that's like driving you into a cost advantage, 175 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 2: or some technological leap that gets you there, or you're 176 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 2: breaking into some massive market for which you know if 177 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 2: it may be a high risk, but once you get there, 178 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 2: it's it's just incredible how much sort of you can 179 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 2: drive in terms of revenue. 180 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: But if you look at the mega trends in climate 181 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: tech that have enabled that kind of cost reduction, whether 182 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: that's solar wind batteries, those have happened because manufacturing has 183 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: scaled somewhere else, mostly in China, Whereas if you look 184 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: at what has America contributed in terms of bringing down 185 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: the cost of climate tech, you could bring up an 186 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: example like Tesla, but it could never crack a thirty 187 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: thousand dollars ev as Elon Muskett promised. So if we 188 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: go into this world as we have in the past 189 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: six months, where we start to disintegrate relationships with China, 190 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 1: move supply chains back to America, things will become more expensive. 191 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: They won't have the same mega trends that have continued 192 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: over the past two decades. They will come later if 193 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: the manufacturing setup sticks around for that period. But in 194 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 1: the intervening period, things are going to get more expensive, 195 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: harder to build. How are you thinking about operating as 196 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: an investor in that environment? 197 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think globalization brings efficiency and deglobalization 198 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: is going to increase cost of everything going around the world. 199 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 2: So I think that's just true. You know, I equible 200 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 2: with one point, which is you know, first of all, 201 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 2: particularly the US is often the source of many of 202 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 2: the actual innovations. So LFP batteries invented in the United States, 203 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 2: commercialized and scaled in China. Yep, we like missed that one. 204 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 2: And there are places where, in particular, and I'll call 205 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 2: out SpaceX has a very local supply chain and has 206 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 2: built most of their stuff. They're not really relying that 207 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: much on overseas supply chain for what they're building, and 208 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: they've built an expertise and talent. Now they have a 209 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 2: low production, high cost product, so that works better for that. 210 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 2: There are other businesses that look like that too, where 211 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 2: you have a relatively low production, high cost product that 212 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 2: you can do in sort of series production. And we're 213 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 2: seeing an incredible disporora of companies literally in El Segundo, California, 214 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 2: mostly with SpaceX alumni. We're sort of taking the same 215 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 2: playbook of a vertically integrated supply chain exceptional engineering to 216 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 2: attack a premium product that can compete. You know in 217 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 2: today's world. You know, there's a company called Arcbo that's 218 00:11:00,679 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 2: building electrified started with a pleasure boat and then a surfboat, 219 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 2: and now they're working on fishing boats, and now they're 220 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 2: moving to their electrifying tugboats. They make hundreds or thousands 221 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 2: of them a year. It's not fifty thousand, but they're 222 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 2: able to do so at reasonable costs. In Los Angeles, 223 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 2: they're manufacturing the vehicles there. You have another company out 224 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 2: there called Lightship that's doing this for RVs, recreational vehicles. 225 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 2: It's a massive market. Turns out a lot of people 226 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 2: in the United States have an RV, and they can 227 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 2: build one that is electrified and better. You're not running 228 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 2: a generator when you're sitting there trying to camp and 229 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 2: be out in nature, which sucks. And then you go 230 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 2: into big technological leaps like fusion, Commala Fusion and Devn's 231 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 2: Massachusetts sets the world record for magnet strength. They've got 232 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 2: a magnet that, as Bob likes to say, the founder 233 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 2: CEO can lift an aircraft carrier. It's that powerful. And 234 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 2: so really that is dependent on like a massive technical 235 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 2: leap innovativeness, which I would argue the United States as 236 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 2: historically been the leader in and if we can make 237 00:11:57,160 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 2: fusion work. I mean, just to put this in perspective 238 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 2: to power or here in London, London's about call it 239 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 2: four gigawatts of consistent power about one hundred gig abot 240 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 2: hours a day. So we kind of did some rough 241 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 2: math on the way here to like power this with fusion, 242 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 2: you need a couple of kilograms of fuel a day, 243 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 2: so like two MacBooks, I could fuel the plant and 244 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 2: carry it my backpack each day. You know, it's about 245 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,640 Speaker 2: a million plus maybe ten million more energy dance than coal. 246 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 2: So like if we can crack that, Yes, energy is 247 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 2: a commodity, but I'm like showing up with a totally 248 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 2: different solution to that commodity, which is this like super 249 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: energy dance process that really relies on massive innovation. And 250 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 2: that's a place where I think betting on startups, betting 251 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 2: on the West is tractable. 252 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, there is no doubt there's a whole 253 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: bunch of innovation that has happened in the US that 254 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: is now climate tech for the rest of the world. 255 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: You didn't go all the way back to the nineteen 256 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: fifties with the silicon Footobell take cell was invented in 257 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: Bell Labs in America. You didn't go to the nineteen 258 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: seventies when the lithium and pattery itself. Even before we 259 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: come to up cathered that does specific things. The first 260 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: setup of Aliti mand matterio is invented in the next 261 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: on mobile lab. So there is not saying America can't innovate, 262 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: and we'll come to what's happening with science funding and 263 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: how that might affect climate in tech investing. But it 264 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: is true there is an ecosystem to innovate. There is 265 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 1: the brain power to bring these ideas into commercial opportunity, 266 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 1: but then grabbing that opportunity and actually scaling companies has 267 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,719 Speaker 1: been rare. So you brought up an example, which is 268 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: SpaceX really good example in the Space Arena. A lot 269 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: of that has been possible because it had government contracts 270 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: big ones initially, which required it to have a local 271 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,599 Speaker 1: domestic supply chain because that's the requirement from NASA to 272 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: be able to put on American astronauts into the space station. 273 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: But then it's been able to use that tailwind to 274 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: actually become a commercial entity that does work for everybody 275 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: and anybody. You know, there are Indian satellites that get 276 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: launched by SpaceX, but you needed that initial support from 277 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,959 Speaker 1: the US government to bring the company to a point 278 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 1: where it is commercially now the leader America is not 279 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: doing that for any other sector. So LFP is a 280 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: very good story of that. Right. LFP was invented in America. 281 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: A one to three was the company that was going 282 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: to scale up the battery chemistry, and then it got 283 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 1: bought by China. And we know the story. This gets 284 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: repeated multiple times. So as a climate tech investor going 285 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: into an early stage company, how do you think about 286 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: scale when it comes to becoming a SpaceX. 287 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is where I like, I actually don't describe 288 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 2: myself as a climate tech investor because I think that 289 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 2: that is a ill posed frame of what this is. Like, 290 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: these are hardware companies typically, and so if you zoom 291 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: out a little bit and talk about hardware and say, like, 292 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 2: all right, what are the big interesting new hardware companies 293 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 2: that's shown up in the last twenty or thirty years. 294 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 2: Just talked about how I I went to a company 295 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 2: that went from zero to tens of millions of square 296 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 2: foot of operating facilities all around the world in a decade. 297 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 2: You've seen similar things happen at Microsoft at Amazon in 298 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: both with data centers and in their case and warehouses 299 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 2: and fleets of planes and trucks and other things. So 300 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 2: you just look at the largest companies in the world, 301 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 2: they are predominantly American companies, and so I think there 302 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: is an opportunity to grow and scale these things. It 303 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 2: requires having a business model. You know, in Videa's case, 304 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 2: they have Silicon and Chips are the most extreme example 305 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: of the companies that I think have a chance, which 306 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 2: is you concentrate a tremendous amount of human R and 307 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 2: D into a product that I can put in the 308 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 2: palm of my hand and I can sell by the millions. 309 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 2: We had very hard margins. That is an incredible business, right, 310 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 2: that is as good as it gets. And like, look 311 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 2: at everyone in the world chasing out you know, for 312 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 2: five years it's been obvious this is this amazing business. 313 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 2: Everyone's throwing money at it and they can't catch Jensen, right, 314 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 2: And so once you get scale it's like really hard 315 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 2: to catch, and so I think there are very few 316 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 2: businesses that are like silicon think that you know, on 317 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 2: the other extreme, you have just baseline commodities that are 318 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 2: very hard, things like steel, concrete, cement, and those sorts 319 00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 2: of things. And there's like a big space of stuff 320 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 2: in the middle there that I think is really really 321 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 2: quite interesting. As a very specific example, so I'm not 322 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 2: just talking in generality, is you know a bunch of big, 323 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 2: boring equipment that you talked about in a show two 324 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 2: weeks ago as transformers. You know, these things that take 325 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 2: one voltage to another voltage, and they're been built the 326 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 2: same way, roughly speaking, for the last hundred years or 327 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 2: right now on a cost curve down on solid state transformers, 328 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 2: and you know, they are getting down cost down about 329 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 2: ten to fifteen percent every year. They're increasing sort of 330 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: in their efficiency, and so I think we're just at 331 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: the cycle now where you know, I'm going to be 332 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 2: able to build a transformer at a tenth the size 333 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 2: of an existing transformer. There's immense demand for these things, 334 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 2: so we're going to like sell everyone. There's a company 335 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 2: we just funded called Heron, with an exceptional founder from 336 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 2: eighteen years of Tesla DRUBEGL. You know, I think that's 337 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 2: an amazing market. They are not going to be able 338 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 2: to make enough of their product to meet demand in 339 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 2: the early days, and they're going to build a hugely 340 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 2: differentiated product thanks to an innovation which is sort of 341 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 2: power electronics and solid state, which is relatively new. 342 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: There's one way to think about why energy innovation in 343 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:14,719 Speaker 1: America hasn't quite scaled, which is, for the past thirty years, 344 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: energy demand has been roughly flat. And that is true 345 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: of all energy demand. That's true of electricity demand specifically, 346 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: which is now starting to change the demand, especially in 347 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: the West with Europe and North America looking to build 348 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 1: data centers but also electrifying their fleet, adding heat pumps. 349 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 1: And there is something that growth does to the need 350 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 1: for innovation and the need for market developments that steady 351 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: or a declining market does not do. Right. 352 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a really great point. And the 353 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 2: way I would actually plus one that and say it 354 00:17:55,160 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 2: even stronger, which is energy access has become a boardroom 355 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 2: conversation in a way that wasn't true like literally four 356 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 2: years ago. So it is a top ordering conversation because 357 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 2: if I don't have access to energy. I can't build 358 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 2: the compute power I need. I can't build the data services, 359 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 2: the AI models, and I may lose out to my competition. 360 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 2: And you're seeing large companies. You know, Meta just announced 361 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 2: yesterday a deal for geothermal XGS. It was the second 362 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 2: geo thermal deal after Sage. Obviously Google has been doing 363 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 2: the same with Fervo. You've got most of the hyperscalers 364 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 2: being contracts for, you know, fission plants. It is categorically 365 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: different to say I need more of it or I 366 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 2: can offer it a better price. And like, getting access 367 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 2: to this thing is the difference between my business succeeding 368 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 2: or not. And so I'm willing to pay more. I'm 369 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 2: willing to take risks on new innovative technology and that 370 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 2: is a pull through, particularly on the energy side, that 371 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 2: like didn't exist even a few years ago, that I'm 372 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 2: incredibly excited about and I think it's enabling a lot 373 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 2: of new innovation. 374 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,640 Speaker 1: After the break, are funding cuts in the US breaking 375 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 1: the innovation pipeline. And Hey, if you're enjoying this episode, 376 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate and review the show 377 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Your feedback really matters and 378 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 1: helps new listeners discover the show. Thank you. So a 379 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,640 Speaker 1: lot of your investments are at early stage companies, and 380 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: the pipeline of innovation that is America that creates these 381 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: early stage companies is really strong. But we are going 382 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 1: to see, and we are starting to see already heavy 383 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 1: cuts to science funding, to health funding, to energy technology funding. 384 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: How do you think that changes your ability to think 385 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: about investing not next year, not in two years, but 386 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: in five or ten years. Yeah. 387 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm a deep believer in the power of 388 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 2: you know, science and research to sort of accelerate our 389 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 2: ability to build interesting things and solve problems. So, you know, 390 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 2: I don't really know how this is all going to 391 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 2: shake out, but if it does, you know, if we're 392 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 2: doing less of that, then it is slowing down the 393 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 2: pipeline of things. You know, I would say five plus 394 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:17,680 Speaker 2: years out. You know, there's a I was talking yesterday 395 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 2: and you know, someone was sharing some research they had 396 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 2: done which you know, said that most things to go 397 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 2: from a lab discovery to say one hundred million dollar 398 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 2: commercial deployment, you know, it's on the order of ten 399 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 2: to twenty years, and so it's probably not a five 400 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 2: year problem. It's more like a ten or twenty year problem, 401 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 2: but it's still a problem we do as a society, 402 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 2: as humanity, need to be investing sort of at all 403 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 2: stages of innovation. 404 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: You know. 405 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 2: My part of why I you know, I've been working 406 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 2: in technology in some form for twenty five plus years, 407 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 2: and I sort of asked myself sometimes like why am 408 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 2: I keep doing this? And you know, whenever I'm having 409 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 2: a bad day or bad week, you know, I just 410 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,879 Speaker 2: sort of like try to look back and one hundred 411 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 2: plus years ago or a little a little more, like 412 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 2: it wasn't safe to drink the water in London because 413 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 2: we didn't really understand and how to disinfect it. Technology 414 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 2: has fundamentally improved the human condition, and it is the 415 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 2: vehicle by which we take difficult zero sum problems. Can 416 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 2: we fund this or can we fund that? And we 417 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,159 Speaker 2: come up with a solution that's half the price, and 418 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 2: we say, guess what we can do both? And that 419 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 2: is sort of where I have dedicated my life, and 420 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 2: I'm hopeful. I'm concerned about this, and I'm hopeful we 421 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 2: can find ways to sort of get back to funding 422 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 2: the basic research that is the sort of early fuel 423 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 2: in this pipeline of incredible technologies to advance human prosperity. 424 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: So I've been covering venture capital investing in climate tech 425 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: for a while now, and a lot of the money 426 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: that goes into these companies tends to be American. A 427 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 1: lot of the companies that are in this space tend 428 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: to be American. What's happening on science funding? We are 429 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: seeing places like Europe but also China, Japan, even India 430 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: looking to boost science funding, looking to either attract some 431 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: of the scientists who left those parts to come back 432 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: home or to just give I mean, these are words 433 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: that politicians have used refuse to American scientists who want 434 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: to do work. Would you start to see opportunities to 435 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: invest more in those regions as climate tech investor? Because 436 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: are you tied to wanting an American company or are 437 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:20,719 Speaker 1: you agnostic? 438 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 2: I will go where the great innovation happens. My current 439 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 2: thesis and continues to be that, you know, and it's 440 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 2: not exclude one of our companies as a French based company, 441 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 2: dic Cycle, and I think they're amazing producing clean chemicals 442 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 2: using electro chemistry, and so I'm not dogmatic about it. 443 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 2: I do think having built teams internationally all over the world, 444 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 2: built things all over the world. That America still is 445 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 2: particularly and particularly the West Coast and Boston, you know, 446 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,360 Speaker 2: is particularly unique in its ecosystem and ability to start things. 447 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 2: I mean, I'll tell you when I started doing this work, 448 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 2: I live in the Bay Area in San Francisco area, 449 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:55,439 Speaker 2: and I had a question of like, am I on 450 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 2: the wrong spot? Should I be in Houston, Should I 451 00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 2: be in Boston? Should I be somewhere else? And so 452 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 2: I had sort of a point of reflection, maybe I 453 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 2: need to move to be where the action is. And 454 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 2: it just turns out that the Bay Area, in particular 455 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 2: in Los Angeles are still the epicenter of startups. You 456 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 2: can walk down the street and find someone who understands AI. 457 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 2: You can find an IP lawyer, you know, you can 458 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 2: find a CFO. It just like has the density of 459 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 2: talent you need. And that people have been trying to 460 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: recreate Silicon Valley and we call them, you know, Silicon 461 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 2: Alley or whatever it may be. And it's just hard 462 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 2: because you're recreating an entire ecosystem. Now you can screw 463 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 2: that up. You can you can mess it up over time. 464 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 2: And you know, I really hope America doesn't because I 465 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 2: think it's it's a huge engine of innovation and productivity 466 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 2: for the world, but it will, you know, for now, 467 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 2: I think it is the pre eminent. 468 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: Place to do it. 469 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 2: But again I'm not dogmatic. We see a great company 470 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 2: somewhere else in the world. I think there are a 471 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 2: billion people all over the world. I think India in 472 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 2: particular is investing a lot, as is China and others. So, 473 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 2: you know, I hope we see a lot of innovation 474 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 2: all over the world. 475 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: Looking over the next three to four years. What are 476 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: the things that you are seeking companies to bring solutions 477 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: in the climate text space that you would like your 478 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: capital to go towards. 479 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 2: So we invest in everything, industrials, you know, land use, 480 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 2: car removal, all the rest of it. We have a 481 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 2: pretty balanced portfolio of those things. But I would say, 482 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 2: if you, if you like, made me be focused. The 483 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 2: two things I'm obsessed with are very simple. It's energy 484 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 2: and it's AI for acceleration of atoms and so energy 485 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 2: is pretty straightforward. As you know, are there new ways 486 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: to produce slow carbon energy cheaply distributed store it? I 487 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 2: think there's just a tremendous amount of innovation, whether it's fusion, 488 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 2: advanced geothermal, battery storage. I think there's a ton of ways, 489 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 2: a ton of places where we can put batteries and 490 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 2: things because it's you know, cheaper, better, faster. You can 491 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 2: you can do it in induction stoves, you can do it, 492 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: lawn care equipment, you can do it in r v's. 493 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 2: Like we're just kind of getting started replacing all the 494 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 2: gas stuff, all the diesel generators with batteries. In fact, 495 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 2: we just recently did an investment in a fishing company 496 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 2: that's building a microreactor called Radiant, and their target market 497 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 2: is diesel generators. It's a small reactor, it's one megawatt, 498 00:24:57,880 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 2: but you know in regions where it's hard to get 499 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 2: to to ship diesel fuel there and it's incredibly expensive 500 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,640 Speaker 2: to do so, so you can actually build a cost 501 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 2: competitive product, you know, by shipping a container that just 502 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 2: produces energy for five years straight. That's that's exciting. So 503 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,239 Speaker 2: I think energy broadly is super exciting. And then you know, 504 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 2: we've been seeing a lot of really interesting applications of 505 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 2: advances and AI for I would say accelerating the scale 506 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 2: out the first wave of these companies. We're trying to 507 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,200 Speaker 2: accelerate discovery, so trying to use materials discovery or you know, 508 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 2: chemistry discoveries. And I was honestly like struggling with those companies, 509 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 2: mostly because I think, as you rightly pointed out, it's 510 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 2: the scale out that's the really hard part of this. 511 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 2: And like is I think ninety plus percent of the 512 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 2: work and energy, and so it's like you got to 513 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 2: go attack that problem. So we started poking on that problem, 514 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 2: and we're just seeing a really interesting crop of companies 515 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 2: whose thesis is how do we get from sort of 516 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 2: like idea to production faster and get through iteration, reduce 517 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 2: testing cycles. We need to build a lot of stuff anyway, 518 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 2: you can it five x the grid in the United States. 519 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,239 Speaker 2: How do we just do that faster? And I think 520 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 2: that that's actually a really really interesting problem to solve. 521 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 1: We have seen a decline in climate tech investments broadly 522 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: over the past three years. Now this is before Trump. 523 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: Even a lot of those investors came in because climate 524 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: tech investing was hot, and now many of those have 525 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,640 Speaker 1: gone to AI because AI is hot. When you're thinking 526 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: about investing in companies, you always invest with other investors. 527 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: How have you seen this decline play out. Is it 528 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: going to be catastrophic because there are companies that are 529 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: going to go bankrupt? Or is it a good thing 530 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: because people who really weren't very serious about climate are 531 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 1: now not there. Yeah. 532 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 2: I mean, i'd say, first of all, the data I've 533 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 2: seen at least is that overall funding in VC is down, 534 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 2: and so if you like look at climate tech related 535 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: to overall VC, it's actually down less than over all VC. 536 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 2: But in practice, what I'm seeing in the market is 537 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 2: the more interesting question. And what I'd say is there 538 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 2: was a time twenty two on twenty twenty one where 539 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 2: we were like seeing deals come through with like very 540 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 2: fast markups, very short diligence, what i'd call sort of 541 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 2: non ideal sort of conditions to do a rigorous diligence 542 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,239 Speaker 2: for an investing process that I didn't like. We're now 543 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 2: seeing sort of more ractionality. We have more time to 544 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,199 Speaker 2: look at deals and understand them, really get to know 545 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 2: the founders, you know, understand the economics and the technology. 546 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 2: But we're seeing many many companies getting over subscribed grounds, 547 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,640 Speaker 2: meaning that they have more investor interest than they need. 548 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 2: And I think it's almost a bifurcation where you see 549 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 2: companies in the market struggling to raise because they maybe 550 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 2: had too high evaluation or maybe the economics weren't as 551 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 2: favorable as they thought for their business. And I think 552 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 2: the ones you're seeing do really well are you know, 553 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 2: exceptional founders with a product that has an entitlement of 554 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 2: a better, faster, cheaper and people just want it, and 555 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 2: those those rounds are going real fast. So it's a 556 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 2: it's a kind of tale of two companies. In many cases, 557 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,880 Speaker 2: I'm sure there's founders listening to this struggling to fundraise. 558 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 2: And look, I started my first company in two thousand. I 559 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 2: remember what that like. It sucks, so I like, my 560 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,239 Speaker 2: heart goes out to you. But I think there is 561 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 2: there is still appetite and capability to fund companies out there. 562 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: And then the other thing that venture capitalists tend to 563 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: say most of the time is that, look, we invest 564 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: in companies because they're great ideas and not because they're 565 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: getting policy support or government incentives. And so, you know, 566 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: whatever happens with the government, we're trying to not be 567 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: affected by it. But that is only half true because 568 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: a lot of the markets that need to be created 569 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 1: with climate tech products need to be created by producing 570 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: stuff that is initially expensive has to become cheaper by 571 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: giving people incentives in the form of government subsidies to 572 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: make that product cheaper so that people can use it. 573 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: That policy is certainly in the US going away. And 574 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,480 Speaker 1: so you've got these two tracks, I would say, in 575 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: climate tech, where there's mature industries. We talked about solar 576 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: wind batteries, electric cars that will continue to grow because 577 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: they're mature, because the price point is where it is 578 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: and companies are going to make profits making them. And 579 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 1: then there are a whole bunch of immature technologies we 580 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: talked about fusion, but also you know hydrogen or carbon capture, 581 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: point source carbon capture or carbon removal, which requires companies 582 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: to actually buy offsets, which you know, at a voluntary 583 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: scale they can buy somewhat, but like if you have 584 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: a regulatory market like here in Europe, then you actually 585 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: have scale and you have actually a market. Poll So 586 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: with policy going away in the US, what do you 587 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: stop investing in? 588 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 2: Well, it's not I think going away, as I would say, 589 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 2: is too big a statement. It's changing and aspects of 590 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 2: it are going away. And I think you know, what 591 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 2: we had was a fairly broad set of programs like 592 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 2: investing in a lot of stuff across the board, and 593 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 2: what you have from the government's perspective, and what you 594 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 2: have is a much more tailored, targeted set of things. So, yes, 595 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 2: hydrogen is challenged. I think carbon removal is challenged. I 596 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 2: think if you look at the fission market, it's actually 597 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,239 Speaker 2: turbo charged at this point that the administration is like 598 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 2: making room for regulatory approval on others in a way 599 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 2: that didn't happen before. So I think it's quite simple 600 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:02,959 Speaker 2: as that. You know, we've got to do our homework 601 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 2: in terms of the conditions of the market, and if 602 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 2: the market is being supported by some sort of policy 603 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 2: or regulatory sort of tail when we just do an 604 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 2: analysis on like how stable is that right and how 605 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 2: how likely is that going to be to continue, we don't, 606 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 2: you know, typically invest in anything that's dependent on legislation 607 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 2: that hasn't already passed. So you're really only just looking at, okay, 608 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,719 Speaker 2: are you depending on things that are on the books today, 609 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 2: how stable are those? 610 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: You know? 611 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,720 Speaker 2: I tend to be skeptical of, for example, even things 612 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 2: that are on the books where we haven't really felt 613 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 2: the impacts like it's going to create an economic burden 614 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,239 Speaker 2: on people, because those things tend to get pushed out 615 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 2: when you get real close to them because people, you know, 616 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 2: people don't want to pay and so so I still think, 617 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 2: you know, it's a much more nuanced sort of analysis, 618 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 2: you know, of all of these things. But fundamentally, if 619 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 2: I'm you know, back to our you know, there's massive 620 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 2: energy demand. If I'm producing electrons faster or cheaper, I've 621 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 2: got a great business. It's usually one company that transforms 622 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 2: an industr, Like I think fusion is going to happen 623 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 2: because one or two companies, you know, I think I 624 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 2: think Hearen's going to transform you know, power electronics. I 625 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 2: think mill is going to solve more food waste problems 626 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 2: than any company ever in history. Like, I think you 627 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 2: got the shot that like when it works, you like 628 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 2: kind of replay history without Nvidia, right, or that without Intel, Like, 629 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 2: and you're just like, what would it look like? We 630 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 2: don't have to get them all, right, We just have 631 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 2: to get a couple of the ones that are sort 632 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 2: of world changing and that I'm hoping will be the 633 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 2: co alignment of like massive climate impact and some interesting 634 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 2: financial returns for our investors. 635 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: So we talked a bunch about climate investing, but you 636 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: started with climate philanthropy. Yeah, and you continue to do that. 637 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: Where do you see the difference between investing in an 638 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,479 Speaker 1: idea that'll make money versus investing in an idea because 639 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: it needs to exist. 640 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 2: That's a great question. I mean, I think there's a 641 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 2: fairly clear line, at least in my mind, and the 642 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 2: way I think of it as quite simple. I think philanthropy, 643 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 2: at least for me, is really effective at early stage science. 644 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 2: You know, we talked about the early innovation and sort 645 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 2: of policy work. It's a place where you don't even 646 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 2: know if it's going to work, you don't know how 647 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 2: to make money on it. You're just trying to increase 648 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 2: our understanding of different things. So there's some really promising 649 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 2: carbon removal pathways, one called ocean acclinity enhancement, which is 650 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: a way to sort of supercharge something that happens naturally 651 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 2: in the ocean chemistry. And the first question is like 652 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 2: is it safe, is it effective? And how much does 653 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 2: it cost? And the answers to that are like frustratingly broad. 654 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 2: But in that broad range, if you hit some parts 655 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 2: of the target, it may actually be the cheapest, most 656 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 2: scalable form of government removal. I think it's a great 657 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 2: place for us to go do science and say like, well, 658 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 2: let's go try to answer those questions and like let's 659 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 2: answer them with rigorous and inteligence without trying to worry 660 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 2: about whether're go to make money on it, and let's 661 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 2: like try to write some papers. That's a good use 662 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 2: of philanthropy, I think for a lot of things we're 663 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 2: talking about where it's like, you know, solid state transformer, 664 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 2: solid state electronics, that's just at the point now where 665 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 2: like I think it is crossing the commercially competitive line. 666 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 2: It was too expensive and not reliable enough, and I 667 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 2: think we're like just getting at the point, so we're 668 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 2: about a year or two out from I think major 669 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 2: commercial deployments. That's a great place for a company because 670 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 2: you're like trying to scale something out and trying to 671 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 2: make money doing it. That's that's where I think industry 672 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 2: works really really well. 673 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: And you've also given money to ideas in philanthropy to 674 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: try and deal with impacts that are coming our way. 675 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: So we're going to see sea level rise, you're looking 676 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: to give money to ideas that will help us deal 677 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: with a problem that is kind of baked in. You know, 678 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: the models are quite uncertain, but we do know even 679 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: if we meet our climate goals, sea levels will continue 680 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: to keep rising for hundreds of years to come. Why 681 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: is that a problem that you are putting money in 682 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: as a philanthropy rather than stuff that governments are supposed 683 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: to do. This is basic research, This is good for society, 684 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: This is good for all countries, not just for one 685 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: specific country. So every government should really be keen and 686 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: investing in right. 687 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 2: The honest answers. I don't know why other people aren't 688 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 2: doing it. I think one of the things I'm pretty 689 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 2: good at is finding the white space. And so why 690 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 2: ended up here is like, for whatever reason people weren't 691 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 2: And you know, as you start kind of peeling the 692 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 2: onion on it, it gets worse, not better. Which is 693 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 2: our models for sea level rise are pretty pretty rough. 694 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 2: You're talking hundreds of years. Let's talk in the lifetime 695 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 2: of our children. That's twenty one hundred. It's not that 696 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 2: far away. Seventy five years. Models say somewhere between point 697 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 2: two to two meters of sea level rise. That's really 698 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 2: problematic for Mimi in New York and so first question 699 00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 2: is can we like better answer that question? And that's 700 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 2: again a place for science, so has to do work, 701 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 2: and it's not actually that expensive to go go do 702 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 2: that work. And then the next question is, like, if 703 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 2: it's as bad as we think, besides building sea walls, 704 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,280 Speaker 2: is there anything we can do just like slow this down? 705 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,360 Speaker 2: And I think that again, it's that's a good scientific 706 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 2: question ask, and I think it's worth just framing this again. 707 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 2: Is all this climate stuff can feel really abstract, and 708 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 2: we talk about models and one see and this, like 709 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 2: I think about this in terms of people. We're talking 710 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,359 Speaker 2: about islands underwater, we're talking about people being displaced, So 711 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 2: like I about impacts these things have on people in 712 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 2: our lifetime. And the question is how do we better 713 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 2: understand them and better prepare for them and hopefully prevent 714 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 2: or mitigate them, And like that that is the thing 715 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 2: that sort of underlies everything I'm doing. 716 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: Thank you, Mike, Yeah, and thank you for listening to 717 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: zero now for the sound of the week. That was 718 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: the sound of a highland cow burping while having its 719 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:39,320 Speaker 1: hair brushed. Burbs produce the vast majority of methane emissions 720 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 1: from cow rearing and are one of the many sources 721 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: of greenhouse gases that companies are trying to reduce. If 722 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,279 Speaker 1: you like this episode, please take a moment to rate 723 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Share 724 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: this episode with a friend or with someone who loves steak. 725 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Oscar Boyd and Eleanor Harrison. 726 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: DNGATEX podcast is Saige Bauman and head of Talk is 727 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 1: Brendan yunim Our. Theme music is composed by Wonderly Special 728 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,280 Speaker 1: thanks to Jessica beck Soamersadi Moses andm and Schawan Wagner 729 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: I am Akshatrati bak Soon