1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, 2 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big 3 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they 4 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 2: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to 6 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,639 Speaker 2: the podcast. New listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in 7 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 2: the world, it is so great to have you here 8 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 2: back for another episode as we of course break down 9 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 2: the psychology of our twenties. So, as you guys know, 10 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 2: each week on the podcast, we basically just try and 11 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: get a little bit more sense of this decade that 12 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 2: we are living through. From untangling, you know, attachment style dating, 13 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 2: dream jobs, figuring out quarter life crises, all of those things. 14 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 2: It's all part of the beautiful, messy business of growing up. 15 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 2: But some times a topic takes my fancy that is 16 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 2: not unique to our twenties, but yet is so fascinating 17 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 2: and has so much psychology behind it that I cannot 18 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 2: help but do it. And today is one of those topics. 19 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 2: We are heading into slightly murkier waters today and we're 20 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 2: talking about true crime. Why we love true crime, or 21 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 2: this idea of morbid curiosity true crime podcasts, True crime books, 22 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 2: true crime, movies and shows. They are one of the 23 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:39,839 Speaker 2: leading sources of entertainment. They are a billion dollar industry. 24 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 2: People love to be exposed to fear and to tragedy 25 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 2: and to horror and gore. And it seems so counterintuitive. 26 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 2: Why as humans, as a species that spends so much 27 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 2: time pursuing safety and comfort and love, do we have 28 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 2: this kind of darker side of us that is so 29 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 2: curious about things that are so tragic and so awful. 30 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 2: It turns out that liking true crime doesn't mean that 31 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 2: anything is wrong with you. In fact, liking true crime 32 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: is actually quite adaptive. It helps us understand fear, it 33 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 2: helps us process danger, it helps us make more sense 34 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 2: of a very unpredictable and chaotic world, and on a 35 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: psychological level, it actually may even provide a some kind 36 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 2: of anxiety relief, but be a sense of control that 37 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 2: is otherwise really hard to obtain. It seems very strange 38 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 2: I know that something so scary could actually provide us 39 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 2: with so many benefits and actually leave us feeling positive, 40 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: slash entertained, slash relieved. But when you look into the 41 00:02:56,639 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 2: psychology and even the neuroscience of it, it's incredibly fascinating. 42 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 2: True crime also, I think is a very nuanced moral, 43 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 2: moral domain, moral area. There's so much humanity in how 44 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 2: we handle true crime content, and I think that a 45 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 2: lot of us would understand this feeling of becoming quite 46 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 2: desensitized to it and feeling like these days you can 47 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 2: hear about the worst day of someone's life on TikTok, 48 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 2: or you can tune into my favorite murder and listen 49 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: to the story of someone being brutally killed, and that's 50 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 2: just a normal thing. There's so much true crime content 51 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: out there. We have to be careful that we continue 52 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 2: to have our humanity intact as we consume it, and 53 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: that we continue to understand that these are real people 54 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: with real families, with real emotions and real pain who 55 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 2: have been through this, and their stories are not just 56 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 2: for us to listen to or consume on a long 57 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 2: car ride. There's also this other era of this, whereby 58 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 2: when we consume too much, we can actually feel like 59 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: the world becomes heavier, because all we are thinking about 60 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: and listening to and the information we're giving our brain 61 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 2: is that the world is big and scary. So how 62 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 2: do we know when we have consumed too much true 63 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: crime content? How do we know when to stop? And 64 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 2: how do we know that this doesn't make us a 65 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: bad person even if you feel very drawn to gruesome, 66 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 2: awful things. These are all the questions, and there's going 67 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 2: to be a lot more questions that we're going to 68 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 2: answer today. But I really want to dive into this 69 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 2: topic of the psychology of morbid curiosity, where the urge 70 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 2: comes from to know about crime, how it works, when 71 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: does it peak, and how does it serve us versus 72 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 2: emotionally drain us. This is going to be a very 73 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 2: fascinating topic, a little bit unsettling for sure, but also 74 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 2: I would say kind of comforting and if nothing else, 75 00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 2: is very very interesting. So without further ado, let's talk 76 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: about psychology behind why we like true crime. Let's start, 77 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 2: as we always do, with the fundamentals, with the basics. 78 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 2: What is morbid curiosity because it is a major precursor 79 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: to enjoying true crime and horror content. At its core, 80 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 2: morbid curiosity is basically the tendency to seek out information 81 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 2: or experiences related to dangerous, disturbing, dark, or threatening topics. 82 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 2: And that could mean death, that could mean violence, that 83 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 2: could mean illness, supernatural threats, or even bodily harm. Basically, 84 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 2: all the things that scare us and fascinate us in 85 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 2: equal measure we feel drawn to. And it sounds really counterintuitive, right, 86 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 2: Why would we voluntarily engage with things that scare us, 87 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 2: especially when so much of our ordinary life is avoiding fear. 88 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 2: Researchers actually say that we are driven to be curious 89 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 2: about morbid events because as humans, we have this inbuilt 90 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 2: need to explore novel stimulating things that excite us in 91 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 2: some way. And if you're thinking excited might not be 92 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 2: the right word here, it is worth noting that feeling 93 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 2: excited isn't just something that happens in response to positive experiences. 94 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 2: Excitement actually is just activation of extreme interest, so it 95 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 2: can be in response to negative and alarming events as 96 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:40,239 Speaker 2: well as cheerful or positive ones. So to understand this further, 97 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 2: you need to know this name, doctor Colton Shgrivner. He 98 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 2: is a leading researcher at Arizona State University and he 99 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 2: primarily focuses on true crime, fascination and the psychology behind it. 100 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 2: He actually developed something very useful in this conversation called 101 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: the more Curiosity scale. So he wanted to know, Okay, 102 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 2: some people like this kind of dark content, some people 103 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 2: like this. What are the different categories of dark horror 104 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: crime content that people like and what kind of person 105 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 2: feels drawn to each of them? So he broke it 106 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 2: down into four main categories. Dangerous animals, shark attacks, poisonous snakes, 107 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 2: that kind of thing. People who like violent interpersonal events, 108 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 2: so crime, murder, assault, criminal psychology, true crime series fans, 109 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 2: that's the one they that's the category they fall into. Next, 110 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 2: supernatural threats, so people who like ghosts, demons, the occult, 111 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 2: paranormal activity films, those kind of things. And finally, bodily violations, 112 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 2: so autopsies, medical anomalies, graphic injuries, car crashes. Not everyone's 113 00:07:54,600 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 2: more bid curiosity is the same. I personally hate supernatural movies. 114 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: I will not watch one, but I love podcasts and 115 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 2: documentaries about animal attacks, specifically this one called Tooth and 116 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 2: Clat like it has been the top of my Spotify 117 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 2: wrapped every single year. I'm fascinated by it. You, on 118 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 2: the other hand, might get super creeped out by that, 119 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 2: and I'm just not even interested in at all. But 120 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 2: really love medical shows or really love, you know, really 121 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 2: graphic pimple popping videos. The way that we experience excitement 122 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 2: and thrill from different morbid events is going to differ 123 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: between each of us, and some people might not even 124 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 2: have it at all. Different types of morbid curiosity, though, 125 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 2: those different categories seem to correlate with different psychological traits. 126 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 2: So people hire in openness to experience. For example, they 127 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: are more likely to enjoy complex, thought provoking forms of 128 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 2: true crime documentaries or dark philosophical fiction. In this way, 129 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: I think it's because they have a real interest in 130 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 2: what drives humans to do certain things. There's a real 131 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 2: intellectual curiosity there. But people with different personalities, particularly people 132 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:18,959 Speaker 2: who are quite kinesthetic and really understand and learn through 133 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: their bodies and through movement, they tend to be more 134 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 2: fascinated by bodily violations. So it is actually quite individual. 135 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 2: People who are really like sensation seeking and risk takers, 136 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 2: they are more likely to enjoy graphic horror, intense core, 137 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: very thrill heavy mysteries. You can see that it really 138 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 2: comes back to our individual preferences and our character. But 139 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 2: back to that main question why. It turns out that 140 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 2: personality has a lot to do with what kind of 141 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 2: morbid content you like, but also why you like it. So, 142 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 2: linking back to that researcher we talked about before, he 143 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: found that there are certain things that people who like 144 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 2: morbid content have in common. So, yes, they might be 145 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 2: driven to different forms of darkness, but they often rate 146 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 2: or rank quite high in terms of rebellious nonconformity. So 147 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: they like to push boundaries, they like to challenge norms. 148 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 2: They're also often quite curious, very socially curious, very intellectually curious, 149 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 2: and so they are attracted to things that aren't typically discussed, 150 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 2: that might be a little bit taboo, that also are 151 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 2: very fascinating because of how complex they are. You know, 152 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 2: this idea of why to humans hurt other humans, it's 153 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 2: not something that has a simple answer. Every case is 154 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 2: going to be different. Every person's motivations are going to 155 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 2: be influenced by different experiences in different things, and so 156 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: people who are quite socially curious see the minds of 157 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 2: these individuals as a challenge. Another really compelling explanation comes 158 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 2: from evolutionary psychology. So from an evolutionary perspective, morbid curiosity 159 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 2: likely developed as a way to help us navigate and 160 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 2: survive in a very dangerous world. You've got to remember 161 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 2: these things exist for a reason. You know, if morbid 162 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 2: curiosity didn't have a purpose, it wouldn't be as common 163 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 2: as it is. But in early human history, being able 164 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 2: to learn from threats without having to directly experience them 165 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 2: would have been incredibly beneficial. You know, if you watched 166 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: someone else eat a poisonous bearer, you knew to avoid it. 167 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 2: If you heard a story about a deadly predator lurking nearby, 168 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 2: you knew to steer clear of that area. Our ancestors 169 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 2: would simulate those threats in their minds as a way 170 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 2: to develop survival strategies. It's basically a primitive version of 171 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 2: higher stakes observational learning. So nowadays we do that through 172 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 2: consuming certain forms of entertainment, and this is where the 173 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 2: concept of threat simulation comes in. Morbid curiosity serves as 174 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 2: a kind of threat learning system. Were drawn to frightening 175 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 2: and graphic content because on a psychological level, our brain 176 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 2: wants to gather information about how to survive, So that 177 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 2: would have been really adaptive previously for helping us to 178 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 2: understand threats from a safe distance. Nowadays, we really seek 179 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 2: out knowledge and danger about the current human condition, not 180 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 2: because we enjoy suffering, but because we want to understand 181 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 2: it more so that we are more prepared, and that 182 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 2: kind of feels comforting and provides a little bit of relief. 183 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 2: There is some further value to consuming this content as well, 184 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:50,199 Speaker 2: and it was really revealed during COVID. During the pandemic, 185 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 2: these researchers were looking at who was doing better, who 186 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,719 Speaker 2: was coping with what was a very scary time, who 187 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 2: was coping with all the loss and also all the 188 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 2: uncertainty and all the fear, And they found that it 189 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 2: was people who scored higher on the morbid curiosity scale. 190 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 2: So they liked horror, they liked true crime, who were 191 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:17,079 Speaker 2: more psychologically resilient. Why was this the case, Well, because 192 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 2: they had already rehearsed their approach to fear and danger. 193 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 2: They were familiar with crisis narratives in that sense, their 194 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 2: curiosity about these things beforehand had almost mentally prepared them 195 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 2: for the unknown, like they had most likely simulated and 196 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 2: been exposed to crises over and over again in their mind, 197 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 2: and so that gave them a psychological toolkit to draw 198 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,680 Speaker 2: from when real fear kind of arrived, kind of being 199 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 2: inoculated against it in a way, you know, you get 200 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 2: a vaccine, and the reason a vaccine works is because 201 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 2: it exposes you to a small amount of the virus 202 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 2: that is not harmful, and then you're protected when you 203 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 2: do encounter it. These individuals had been inoculating themselves with 204 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 2: scary content building up like this. Almost most immunity, there's 205 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 2: kind of a threat learning. It's not that something is 206 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 2: wrong with you. It's actually very adaptive. This is what 207 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 2: this is saying. It's an emotional armor for a very 208 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 2: chaotic world. And there's also some fascinating neuroscience behind this 209 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 2: as well. If you dip into the brain of someone 210 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 2: who is consuming let's say a serial killer podcast or 211 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 2: watching criminal minds, what you will see is several regions 212 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 2: lighting up. The first one is the amigta, which is 213 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 2: our brain's fear center. It becomes active of course, as 214 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 2: part of the brain becomes active because it's responsible for 215 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 2: detecting threats and initiating, you know, your fight or flight response. 216 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 2: But we also see the activation of this part of 217 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 2: the brain called the insular, and this is a region 218 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 2: involved in processing empathy, so it can also be quite 219 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 2: a human experience. But the fascinating part that they also 220 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 2: would say is that although these brain regions were lighting up. 221 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 2: In general, other parts of the brain were also quite active, 222 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 2: so we actually felt quite safe. These individuals had this 223 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 2: danger response, but it wasn't overriding other responses in their brain. 224 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 2: It was almost borrowing the intensity of these experiences that 225 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 2: they were watching on screen or that they were listening 226 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 2: to for entertainment, and almost as like a training ritual 227 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 2: for our brain. Right It's like you go to the 228 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 2: gym to stretch a muscle. They were watching this true 229 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 2: crime content and it was like their brain was practicing 230 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 2: its fear response whilst also not shutting down the rest 231 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 2: of the body. It's a gym for our emotions. And 232 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 2: a twenty thirteen study at the University of Amsterdam it 233 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 2: did find that horror movies true crime, they do trigger arousal. 234 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 2: They do get our heart rate going, they make us tense, 235 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: there's faster breathing. But this alarm reaction is actually mimicking 236 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 2: mimicking actual danger. In some part of our brain knows 237 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 2: that we're okay, it knows that we're physically safe. You'll 238 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 2: still get the adrenaline, you'll still get the thrill. But 239 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 2: there was also this weird sense of satisfaction walking away, 240 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 2: feeling that you have conquered the fear, and that is 241 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 2: what kept people coming back to this form of content. 242 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 2: It was giving us a safe way to experience unsafe things, 243 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 2: tricking us into thinking that we've done something brave. But 244 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 2: these people never actually left the room, they never actually 245 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 2: went outdoors. There's actually been some research into this being 246 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 2: quite good for people with anxiety, you know, morbid curiosity 247 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 2: offers this strange but meaningful form of comfort. And some 248 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 2: of you even reached out to me and said this. 249 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 2: When I posted that I was going to do this episode, 250 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 2: one of you DMed me and said, I have such 251 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: intense anxiety, but I love true crime content. I love 252 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 2: learning about danger because it makes it feel knowable. It 253 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:13,479 Speaker 2: like shrinks its power, and you know, that's actually quite 254 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 2: a revealing thing, right. It's the sense that if you 255 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 2: understand the monster, maybe you can survive it. If you've 256 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 2: read the story, you can rewrite the ending. And so 257 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 2: watching true crime almost in a way, is providing people 258 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 2: with a sense of pseudo control that in a very 259 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 2: chaotic world we typically don't actually get. Let's talk about 260 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,479 Speaker 2: how gender plays into this as well, because something that 261 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 2: may or may not surprise you, is that women consume 262 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 2: true crime content at a much higher frequency than men. 263 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 2: We're all over it. In some cases. It's been estimated 264 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 2: that around eighty percent of the audience for true crime 265 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 2: is women. I know personally, as a woman, I constantly 266 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: hear about gender based crimes, and I'm constantly thinking about 267 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 2: my safety in a way that I know my boyfriend 268 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 2: and my male friends and my dad and my cousins 269 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 2: do not. And I don't know about some of you, 270 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 2: but I find myself consuming a lot of true crime 271 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,440 Speaker 2: content where the victims are women. Obviously because crimes against 272 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: women are so high and the rates are so much higher, 273 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 2: but also because when I hear stories about women, I 274 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 2: immediately pay attention and I feel instinctively more drawn in. 275 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 2: And that's not a coincidence. Research has really found and 276 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 2: shown time and time again. Men are really interested in supernatural, 277 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 2: horror and aggressive content. Women are drawn to true crime, 278 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 2: serial killers and murder because their interest is stemming not 279 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 2: just from curiosity, but also from kind of a survival 280 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 2: learning mechanism place. Our interest in true crime is really 281 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 2: stemming from the fact that these narratives speak to real 282 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 2: gender base threats. That women are more statistically likely to face, 283 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 2: and in this way, morbid curiosity often reflects real world hypervigilance. 284 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 2: For women, stories about danger can feel really personal, and 285 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 2: so we want to understand what happened. We want to 286 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 2: understand how it happened. We want to know what the 287 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 2: signs were in hindsight, because consciously or not, we are 288 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,719 Speaker 2: trying to protect ourselves. True crime, yes, on the surface, 289 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 2: looks like entertainment. It's actually more about risk assessment. It's 290 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 2: not just why did he do it? It's how can 291 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 2: I avoid this happening to me again, linking in the 292 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 2: fact that true crime might be a proxy for a 293 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 2: greater sense of control and for a greater sense of preparedness. 294 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,440 Speaker 2: I guess, of course, there is also a fine line 295 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 2: between curiosity, preparedness, and exploitation. You know, when it is 296 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 2: done respectfully and when true crime is considerate of any 297 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 2: victims involved, these experiences can offer really powerful opportunities for 298 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 2: reflection and education. The tricky part is when they begin 299 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 2: to become sensationalized or commercialized. We need to become cautious 300 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 2: of when the suffering of real people becomes entertainment, because 301 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 2: when this happens we risk turning empathy into a real spectacle. 302 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 2: Had an amazing woman on the podcast a few years 303 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 2: back talk about navigating extreme trauma, and her name was Amy, 304 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 2: and her mother was really tragically murdered by her brother, 305 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 2: and then that same brother tried to organize for her 306 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 2: to be murdered by fellow inmates who were about to 307 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 2: get out whilst he was still in prison. And that 308 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 2: was her real life, that was her daily experience of 309 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 2: fear and grief and loss. And she was so open 310 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 2: in sharing about what true crime content meant to her 311 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 2: and how there is a very fine line between talking 312 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 2: about true crime for the purposes of awareness, solving cold cases, 313 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 2: and then just for entertainment. And what she said to 314 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 2: me was, there are a couple ways to really tell 315 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 2: whether what you're consuming is good or bad. Firstly, does 316 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 2: the podcast or show talk about the families? Does it 317 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,719 Speaker 2: contain their permission to talk about the case. Do they 318 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 2: bring the family on, do they victim blame or do 319 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,119 Speaker 2: they solely blame the perpetrator, the person who was responsible. 320 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 2: Do they bring attention to cold cases or just to 321 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 2: cases where there's been a big trial or there's been 322 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 2: some big, dreary finding or you know, a big, splashy 323 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 2: front page news cover. Do they donate to gendered violence charities? 324 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:50,360 Speaker 2: Yes or no? Do they make jokes about the experiences 325 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 2: or are they really just focused on the facts and 326 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 2: the truth. These are important questions to ask if you 327 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 2: want to keep listening, if you want to keep watching, 328 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 2: if you want to keep a true crime in a 329 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 2: way that preserves your humanity, because I don't think it's 330 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 2: bad to want to know it's actually profoundly human, as 331 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 2: we've discussed, but also can only be profoundly human if 332 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 2: it contains compassion and empathy. Because if you're just consuming 333 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 2: to be like, oh I hope this doesn't happen to me, 334 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 2: or oh wow, that's interesting and I'm bored and I 335 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 2: need a thrill, I don't think that's a kind way 336 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 2: to treat what is someone else's life and someone else's death. Perhaps, Okay, 337 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 2: we are going to take a short break, but when 338 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: we return, we're going to explore actually why our morbid 339 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,159 Speaker 2: curiosity typically peaks in our twenties, and also how you 340 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 2: can find some balance with the amount of content out there. 341 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 2: So stay with us. So let's sum in on why 342 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 2: true crime and horror consumption actually peaks in our twenties, 343 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,199 Speaker 2: according to research. I have been thinking about this all 344 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 2: week because I had no idea that this was the case, 345 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 2: and still until I started to really research this episode, 346 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 2: and then I found all these fascinating statistics that basically 347 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 2: said that the biggest audience for true crime is yes, 348 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 2: women of all ages, but people in their twenties makeup 349 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 2: probably like one of the second biggest groups. I think 350 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 2: the reason why in this decade we are so drawn 351 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 2: to this kind of stuff is because there is a 352 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 2: lot of instability during this period. There are a lot 353 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 2: of existential questions. There's new independence. For many of us. 354 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 2: It's the first time we truly become aware of our 355 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 2: own mortality, and not in an abstract sense, but in 356 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 2: a real, tangible way. This is the decade of a 357 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 2: lot of firsts and a lot of the first time. 358 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,560 Speaker 2: We face a lot of existential questions. We move out, 359 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 2: we lose loved ones, we see injustice upclose. We gain independence, 360 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 2: but also anxiety and suddenly the idea of death or 361 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 2: danger or grief. It isn't just theory radical, it's real. 362 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 2: And with all of that comes the question, what does 363 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 2: it really mean to just face the worst and am 364 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 2: I going to be capable when it happens? Morbid curiosity 365 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: becomes a way to confront these questions without having to 366 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 2: live them. You know, by watching, listening, reading, imagining, we 367 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 2: test out different scenarios. You know, what if I was 368 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 2: in that situation? How would I react, how would I survive? 369 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 2: How would I feel? There's also a deep need in 370 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 2: our twenties to figure out how the world works, and 371 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 2: morbid curiosity is part of that. It helps us learn 372 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 2: about the worst case scenarios so that maybe we can 373 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 2: prevent them or at least understand them. And it's kind 374 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 2: of a bonding experience. There is a social side to 375 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 2: this as well, you know, sharing scary stories, true crime, obsessions, 376 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 2: late night TikTok, rabbit holes. It can be such a 377 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 2: bonding experience and there is the kind of vulnerability in 378 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 2: admitting that we're scared or fascinated by this dark stuff 379 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,919 Speaker 2: and then hearing someone else say, yeah, I also am 380 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 2: fascinated by that, and let's talk about it together. You know, 381 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 2: It's just something that bonds people and that fascinates us, 382 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 2: and that I think brings us together as this human 383 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 2: species of like, wow, do you feel this complex emotion. 384 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 2: I do too. Here's something else to consider. I think 385 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 2: morbid curiosity isn't just about fear. It's also about identity, 386 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 2: and in our twenties, when we're constantly trying to figure 387 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 2: out who we are, sometimes these examples of you know, 388 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 2: people being murdered, people being killed, these terrible things gets 389 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 2: us to really ask the question of, like, what would 390 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 2: I like, what do I value? What do I want 391 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:52,199 Speaker 2: in my life? How do I relate to the world. 392 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,160 Speaker 2: What do I see as justice? What do I see 393 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 2: as revenge? What do I see? What do I want? 394 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 2: And it's just all these big questions and it's incredibly rich, 395 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 2: and you really end up acknowledging a lot more about 396 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 2: yourself and how you see the world. Then you think, 397 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 2: and I know you're probably listening to this singing, like 398 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 2: are we talking about the same thing, like truth? I 399 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,200 Speaker 2: just listened to True Crime because I'm bored at work. Yes, 400 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 2: but there's actually more to it than that. Let's not 401 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 2: talk about another essential part of this that we've kind 402 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,679 Speaker 2: of been milling around for a little bit, which is 403 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 2: where's the boundary? How do we know what disturbs us 404 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 2: too much? How do we know when we've gone too far. 405 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 2: It's something I have definitely experienced. Being exposed to so 406 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 2: much tragic, awful stuff, it actually can create a lot 407 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 2: of vicarious stress and vicarious trauma. This was my experience 408 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 2: during my true crime phase. You know, I actually felt 409 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 2: like my life was becoming more dangerous and more scary. 410 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 2: I became more suspicious, I became more hypervigilant, even though 411 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 2: none of these things were actually happening to me. But 412 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 2: it did make me apprehensive, It made me anxious, it 413 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 2: made me feel heavy. And you have to remember, you know, 414 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 2: you are what you expose your mind to. You and 415 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 2: your brain have a two way relationship, and the information 416 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 2: and the content that you feed it matters. It influences 417 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,120 Speaker 2: our mood, our mindset, our stress levels, our outlook on life. 418 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 2: And so if you are going to work and every 419 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,120 Speaker 2: single day you are putting your headphones on and listening 420 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 2: to how Joe murdered Sally and how Igor chopped up 421 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 2: seven people, that is the lens through which you are 422 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 2: going to see the world. You're get to see the 423 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 2: world as dark. Humanity is cruel, people are mean, violence 424 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 2: is normal. When we start doom scrolling and compulsively watching 425 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 2: violent content. You might also have the opposite reaction of 426 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 2: feeling very numb to tragedy and entirely decentized when that happens. 427 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 2: What you're experiencing is something called compassion fatigue. And this 428 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 2: term was originally coined by a psychologist called Charles Figley, 429 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 2: and he was actually using it to describe the emotional 430 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 2: exhaustion experience by care workers and people who work with 431 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 2: trauma victims, so therapists, nurses, aid workers, And he was 432 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 2: seeing this thing where you know, people would come in 433 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 2: and they would be they would not have any limbs, 434 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 2: and they would have been through these terrible things, and 435 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 2: the nurses would be like impatient with them almost and 436 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,439 Speaker 2: like not affected by it at all. And this is 437 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 2: how he essentially realized that when you were exposed to 438 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 2: too much terrible stuff, your compassion can actually run out. 439 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 2: And obviously watching horror film is not equivalent to being 440 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 2: a frontline, you know, care worker, But I do think 441 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 2: it's important to recognize the impact of how readily available 442 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 2: horrific media is to us now because we have smartphones, 443 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 2: because of the algorithms, we are constantly exposed to other 444 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 2: people's pain, to tiktoks and news reports and Instagram videos 445 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 2: of just some of the worst things happening in the 446 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 2: world right now. And if you pick up your phone 447 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 2: first thing in the morning, that's the first thing your 448 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 2: brain is seeing. Compassion fatigue is really not something that 449 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 2: we want to mess with because it is very, very 450 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 2: difficult to get out of. It is very difficult to 451 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 2: break free from, much like burnout. Compassion is such a 452 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 2: human part of us, and when it's switched off, it 453 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 2: means that something like really significant has kind of switched 454 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 2: in our brain. It means that there has been an 455 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 2: extreme trauma, or it means that we've kind of, I 456 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 2: don't want to say lost a part of our humanity, 457 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 2: but definitely the empathy centers in our mind have not 458 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 2: been working properly at for a little while. There is 459 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 2: only so much pain that you can absorb as well. Like, 460 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 2: it's not like you have gone in there and switched 461 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 2: your brain off. It's not like it's your fault. Is 462 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 2: your brain trying to protect you and saying, okay, we 463 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 2: need to preserve a sense of safety and a sense 464 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 2: of justice and a sense of fairness and a sense 465 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,719 Speaker 2: of kindness and comfort. And this content isn't helping us, 466 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 2: so we need to switch off our reaction to it 467 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 2: entirely to preserve this equilibrium, this emotional equilibrium of safety. 468 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 2: And that's the paradox. Right. We consume this content to 469 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 2: feel more informed, but if we're not careful, it can 470 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 2: end up making us feel helpless or actually making us 471 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 2: be completely closed off to any lessons. So here's the 472 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 2: question you need to ask yourself after you consume this 473 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 2: kind of content. Do you feel more curious and connected 474 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 2: or do you feel more anxious, numb, or fatigued After 475 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 2: consuming this content? Do you feel fearful or do you 476 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 2: feel powerful? Do you feel scared or do you feel neutral? 477 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 2: Have you ever had a moment where you have listened, read, 478 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 2: watched some form of true crime content and thought to yourself, 479 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,479 Speaker 2: that isn't that bad or thought, Ooh, I should be 480 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 2: responding to this more intensely than I am. This might 481 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 2: be a sign that you need to take a step back. 482 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 2: If your morbid curiosity leads to empowerment, understanding, even I 483 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 2: guess respectful advocacy, that's one thing. But if it leaves 484 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 2: you feeling hopeless, detached, like the world is a terrifying place, 485 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 2: or like nothing could ever affect you, like you are 486 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 2: like stone. That might be a sign to step back, 487 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 2: start by really asking yourself, why why are you being 488 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 2: drawn to this story or this video? Is it curiosity? 489 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 2: Is it fear? Is it boredom? Is it validation? Notice 490 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 2: how you feel in your body after watching or reading 491 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 2: something intense. Are you exhausted, are you wired? Are you stressed? 492 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 2: And does that actually leave you feeling good? Or is 493 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 2: it something that you would rather avoid? Is there a 494 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 2: way to learn about these things in a more neutralizing, 495 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 2: perhaps safer manner. For example, would it be better to 496 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 2: read a news article rather than listen to a podcast, 497 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 2: or read a Wikipedia page rather than to watch the documentary. 498 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 2: I remember when Lucy Letby trial was going on in 499 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 2: the UK. I don't know if anyone's familiar with this, 500 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 2: but she was a midwife, a nurse who killed a 501 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 2: bunch of babies. I listened to the podcast about it, 502 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 2: what they would report every single day, what was happening 503 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 2: in the trial, and I remember being like, Okay, this 504 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 2: is not healthy. I obviously am drawn to this for 505 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 2: whatever reason, but listening to two hours of episodes per day, 506 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 2: back to back of every single detail is not this 507 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 2: hardest way for me to be learning about this, and 508 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 2: I'm feeling very desensitized to what is going on. I'm 509 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 2: also I'm feeling equally desensitized as well as kind of 510 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 2: upset and numb, and so I started just reading about 511 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 2: it on the news, and I gave myself a little 512 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 2: bit of a break from it, Like I wasn't allowed 513 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 2: to read what happened to the case for a couple 514 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 2: of weeks, and by the time I came back to it, 515 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 2: it was done, and I actually felt like I was 516 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 2: happier and I was lighter afterwards, and I felt less irritated, 517 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 2: perhaps because I wasn't sitting there hearing about some of 518 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 2: the worst crimes ever committed at my desk. Constantly, try 519 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 2: as best as you can as well, to limit passive consumption. Now, 520 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 2: trust me, I know firsthand how hard it is to 521 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 2: not just want to switch off for a while and 522 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 2: mindlessly scroll Instagram. I get it, especially after a stressful day. 523 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,800 Speaker 2: But I do think it's important to seek out well researched, 524 00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 2: respectful content rather than just letting the hout algorithm feed 525 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 2: you the most sensationalist stories. If you see content that 526 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:10,800 Speaker 2: is that say not interested, block the account, and honestly 527 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 2: ask yourself, if this was my sister, if this was 528 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 2: my parent, if this was my friend, would I be 529 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 2: okay with how they're being portrayed here? Because if the 530 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 2: answer is no, don't give that person that podcast, that 531 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 2: TV station, that show any of your views or attention, 532 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 2: because it really does just promote that increasingly sensationalization of 533 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,919 Speaker 2: someone's real life trauma and tragedy for money, Like they're 534 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 2: making money from this, They're making money from the worst 535 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 2: thing that ever happened to someone. I also want you 536 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 2: to balance this heavy content with lightness. You know, try 537 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 2: watching something funny every once in a while, even if 538 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 2: you find it boring compared to your usual true crime. 539 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,719 Speaker 2: Go for a hike, call a friend, bake some cookies. 540 00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:57,720 Speaker 1: Literally. 541 00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 2: Last week, I did an episode on how to make 542 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 2: your Life More Fun, which you can listen to for 543 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 2: more ideas. But sometimes, if you are a true crime lover, 544 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,040 Speaker 2: you don't realize the toll it's taking until you take 545 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 2: a little step away and you're like, wow, this is 546 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,240 Speaker 2: what it's like to live in the likeness. Remember, as humans, 547 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 2: we weren't meant to know all of these details. About 548 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 2: everyone's lives. We weren't meant to be able to pick 549 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 2: up our phones and google a million different cases and 550 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,320 Speaker 2: all the different pieces of data and all the different details, 551 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 2: And we weren't meant to be able to be this 552 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 2: aware of what was happening all over the world. Were 553 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 2: we have evolved to exist in tribes of you know, 554 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 2: no more than five hundred people, and to know details 555 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 2: about no more than five hundred people's lives. So you 556 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 2: have to be careful in not overwhelming your brain with 557 00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 2: so much intense and just extra stuff that it and 558 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,800 Speaker 2: have time to even be present in your own life. 559 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,120 Speaker 2: It's okay to say I don't need to know more 560 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 2: about this right now. It's not going to benefit anyone. 561 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 2: I'm going to make a different choice. I'm going to 562 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 2: tune into something else and just set boundaries with the 563 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 2: content like that is a form of emotional self care 564 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 2: and just remember your humanity. It is actually fine to 565 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 2: consume true crime content. I really hope that that has 566 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 2: come through. Like it is a natural human curiosity. It 567 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 2: is evolutionary. It is linked to an ey for control, 568 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 2: it is linked to anxiety relief. It's super normal to 569 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,759 Speaker 2: want to know more information for information gathering and for preparedness. 570 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 2: But desensitization is not a badge of honor. You don't 571 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,320 Speaker 2: need to watch so much that it doesn't impact you anymore. 572 00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 2: Feeling disturbed, feeling emotional, needing to look away, that is 573 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,879 Speaker 2: a sign that your empathy is intact. And you need 574 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 2: empathy for almost everything in your life. And if you 575 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 2: switch it off for one thing, you'll switch it off, 576 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 2: you switch it off for everything. So please make sure 577 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 2: that you keep your humanity about yourself whilst you're being entertained. 578 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 2: We are going to take a quick break right now, 579 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 2: but when we return, we have some more listener questions, 580 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 2: some more niche listener questions about this very topic why 581 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 2: we like true crime, so stay with us. So, as 582 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 2: you guys know, I've been doing this new section of 583 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 2: the podcast where I ask you, guys are listeners, to 584 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 2: send in your listener questions. Sometimes topics are just so 585 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 2: broad and deep and nuanced that I can't answer everything 586 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,480 Speaker 2: in the main body of the episode. So this just 587 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 2: gives you guys an opportunity that if you have more 588 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 2: specific questions or dilemmas regarding yourself, you can ask them 589 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 2: and get answers. In the episode rather than having to 590 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 2: wait till afterwards. So this first question I thought was 591 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 2: an amazing way to start. Why do I continue to 592 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 2: consume true crime content even though I know it's going 593 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 2: to give me anxiety? So this is kind of interesting. 594 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 2: It's different to everything else that we've discussed. Everything else 595 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 2: we've discussed in this episode has been like, it doesn't 596 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 2: make me anxious. It actually provides me with anxiety relief. 597 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 2: I feel excited rather than anxious. But this is someone 598 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 2: who's saying I am drawn back to this content even 599 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 2: though I know it makes me feel bad. I think 600 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 2: what's probably happening is that you are searching for mastery 601 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 2: and you are searching for control. Anxiety is an emotion 602 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,359 Speaker 2: that we are endlessly trying to manage, and so when 603 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 2: we encounter situations where it's triggered and we can't manage it, 604 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 2: that actually contains a lot of fear for us, and 605 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,640 Speaker 2: some people choose to avoid those situations. So if you're 606 00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:50,680 Speaker 2: scared of flying, really what you're scared of is the 607 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 2: anxiety that associates flying, and so you avoid the trigger, 608 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 2: which is the plane. If you're scared of dogs, really 609 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 2: you're not scared of dogs. You're scared of your anxiety 610 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 2: around dog, and so you avoid pets and you avoid animals. 611 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 2: You seem to be going in the opposite direction. You know, 612 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 2: you feel anxious, but you're running towards it, probably because 613 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 2: your brain is saying, okay, like, we can't let this 614 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 2: control us. We need to continue exposing ourselves in order 615 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 2: to feel like we can do something about this, in 616 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 2: order to not feel beholden to our fear. It also 617 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 2: seems like you are still trying to gain information, so 618 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 2: your brain is kind of being pulled into directions, or 619 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 2: your mind is being pulled into directions. We don't like 620 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 2: this content. It makes me feel bad, but also there 621 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,239 Speaker 2: seems to be something necessary in listening to it. There 622 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,840 Speaker 2: seems to be some kind of crucial information, So I 623 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,400 Speaker 2: can't look away. I need you to listen to your 624 00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,839 Speaker 2: body and understand that it is giving you all of 625 00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 2: the signs that this is maybe just not the right 626 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 2: kind of content for you. If you still have that 627 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 2: morbid fascination, see if you can consume morbid content in 628 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 2: from one of those other categories. So see if you 629 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 2: still get that same kind of entertainment or value from 630 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 2: supernatural things. From dangerous animals, from medical TV shows rather 631 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 2: than true crime. It might be that you still have 632 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 2: this morbid need, but gory into personal violence is just 633 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,840 Speaker 2: not for you. And if you find that none of 634 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 2: them are, it's okay to just say, hey, I'm sensitive 635 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:27,839 Speaker 2: to this stuff and just not engage with it. Like 636 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 2: that's not a bad thing. You really aren't missing out 637 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 2: all that much if you're still reading the news, if 638 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 2: you're still got you into the ground, if you're still 639 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 2: listening out, and if you still maintain good personal safety. 640 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 2: I don't think true crime content really actually helps all 641 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 2: that much. To just see if there's another way that 642 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:51,320 Speaker 2: you can perhaps gain that mastery over your anxiety. This 643 00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,400 Speaker 2: second question, why does watching murderers kill not make me 644 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 2: feel scared when I'm alone? Am I a psycho? No? 645 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 2: It's just that it's not really happening to you. So 646 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 2: it's actually a good thing that you can feel safe 647 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,520 Speaker 2: and that you can distinguish between something that has happened 648 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 2: to someone else, something that is perhaps fictional, and something 649 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 2: that is real. It does not make you a psycho. 650 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,320 Speaker 2: It actually means that you have a very stable hold 651 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,280 Speaker 2: over your reality. It means that you are not letting 652 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 2: things that you see on screen influence your personal life 653 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,279 Speaker 2: too much. It's definitely not a bad thing. You are 654 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 2: definitely not a psycho. I would say if you turn 655 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,600 Speaker 2: around and said, well, then I want to go a 656 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 2: murder people and I don't feel wit about it, that 657 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,600 Speaker 2: would make you a psycho. But you're not actually directly 658 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 2: hurting someone or directly seeing someone be hurt. So I 659 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 2: actually think it goes to show that your brain has 660 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:51,280 Speaker 2: a really good grasp on the difference between reality and fiction, 661 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 2: or your reality and someone else's reality. Our third question 662 00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 2: for the day, do you think there's a link between 663 00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 2: loving true crime and Freud's theory of thanatos? Thanatos is 664 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 2: one of those words that I've only ever seen written down, 665 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,919 Speaker 2: and you actually don't know how it's pronounced. So if 666 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,319 Speaker 2: I am butchering it, please let you please let me know. 667 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 2: But yes, absolutely, I'll explain what this concept means if 668 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 2: you haven't heard of it before. Thanatos is basically our 669 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,400 Speaker 2: death drive. So Freud really believed that within us there 670 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 2: are these two drives. There's the drive towards life errors, 671 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 2: the drive towards survival, love, connection, creativity, passion, and then 672 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:35,239 Speaker 2: this drive towards aggression, destruction, chaos, and ultimately death. And 673 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,759 Speaker 2: he really believed that human behavior is shaped by a 674 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 2: tension between these two forces, and when you are in 675 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:47,279 Speaker 2: a good place, they balance each other out. You have 676 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,080 Speaker 2: an equal appreciation for both. When you think about the 677 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 2: obsession many people have with true crime, though, and the 678 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 2: way we consume stories of murder, violence, betrayal, you can 679 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 2: actually see that maybe this fascination tap into our thanatos. 680 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:05,240 Speaker 2: We are being exposed to aggression, destruction, and ultimately death 681 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,879 Speaker 2: from a safe distance, and as a result, we're kind 682 00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:14,439 Speaker 2: of vicariously dancing with this destruction that Freud says we're 683 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:19,600 Speaker 2: actually drawn to without having to experience it. We are 684 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:24,839 Speaker 2: like submerging ourselves in the representations of violence without feeling it, 685 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,399 Speaker 2: and so it might even give us symbolically a sense 686 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,959 Speaker 2: of control over our death drive as well. Like here 687 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:35,920 Speaker 2: I am I am standing like ankle deep in horror 688 00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:38,000 Speaker 2: and gore and some of the worst things that happened 689 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,799 Speaker 2: to people, and I'm not afraid, and that makes me 690 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:45,800 Speaker 2: feel strong, and that makes me feel powerful. That said, 691 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 2: I would say a lot of modern psychologists might push 692 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 2: back and argue that it's more about curiosity. It's more 693 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,880 Speaker 2: about empathy, It's more about preparedness and problem solving. You know, 694 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,760 Speaker 2: we are drawn to understand the why behind horrific things because, 695 00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,759 Speaker 2: you know, it allows us to understand people better and 696 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,200 Speaker 2: to really explore moral boundaries. It's not because we ultimately 697 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,720 Speaker 2: want that to happen to us, which is what Freud 698 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:13,279 Speaker 2: would actually suggest. But love that question. Finally, why can 699 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 2: I read, watch slash, listen to podcasts about certain crimes 700 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:21,920 Speaker 2: but not others? I don't know what a fascinating question. 701 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,400 Speaker 2: I would go so far as to say that probably 702 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 2: the crimes you can't consume content about feel perhaps too 703 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,840 Speaker 2: close to home, and maybe there's a sense, a greater 704 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 2: sense that they might actually happen to you. You know, 705 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,400 Speaker 2: murder is not actually that common. As much as it 706 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 2: dominates true crime content and the news, it's not actually 707 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 2: that common. Whereas when we listen to stories or you know, 708 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:58,239 Speaker 2: whatever it is about sexual based crimes or domestic crimes, 709 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,200 Speaker 2: there is sense of like that could maybe happen to me. 710 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,120 Speaker 2: The rates of that are a lot higher, or maybe 711 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 2: you know someone who that has happened to, and it's 712 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,440 Speaker 2: that personal connection with it that makes it so difficult 713 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,879 Speaker 2: for you to engage with it in any way other 714 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 2: than from a place of fear and danger. So I 715 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:21,960 Speaker 2: think that's probably what it is. You know, if you 716 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:27,120 Speaker 2: suddenly had a close friend who tragically died because of 717 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:30,320 Speaker 2: a murder case or something like that, you might find 718 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 2: that actually you couldn't consume it anymore. So maybe it 719 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 2: is that the only way you can is if you 720 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,600 Speaker 2: haven't personally been touched by it. But I want to 721 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:40,920 Speaker 2: see some research on that. I really want to do 722 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,719 Speaker 2: some more digging on an answer for you. But I 723 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,560 Speaker 2: think that is actually all that we have time for today. 724 00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,280 Speaker 2: If you have made it this far, drop a little 725 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,240 Speaker 2: emoji down below showing me what you think of this topic. 726 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 2: It might be a devil face, a scared face, a knife, 727 00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:01,399 Speaker 2: whatever emoji best represents the true crime theme of the day. 728 00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:05,680 Speaker 2: I hope that I handled this tactfully. I hope that 729 00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:09,359 Speaker 2: you felt empathy coming through here. I think talking about 730 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:12,319 Speaker 2: true crime is not something that we can take upon 731 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,800 Speaker 2: ourselves lightly. It is It's real and it's happened to people, 732 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,239 Speaker 2: and we have to remember that at the end of 733 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,640 Speaker 2: the day. Even if the podcast has a cool cover, 734 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,880 Speaker 2: even if the host is really fun and spunky like 735 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:27,839 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, that is still a 736 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:29,920 Speaker 2: real victim, and we want to make sure that we 737 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:33,759 Speaker 2: are treating that with respect. Remember if it was you, 738 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,200 Speaker 2: if it was someone you loved, would you want this 739 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,319 Speaker 2: person to talk about them that way? And there are 740 00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,560 Speaker 2: so many podcasts and shows who do it so so well, 741 00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:47,440 Speaker 2: So let's give them our attention. Let's give them our money, 742 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,360 Speaker 2: I guess, in our time, rather than the shows that don't. 743 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:53,080 Speaker 2: But thank you for listening. If you've made it this far, 744 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:55,520 Speaker 2: make sure you are following me on Instagram at that 745 00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:59,240 Speaker 2: psychology podcast. Let me know what you thought about this episode. 746 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,279 Speaker 2: You can DM me over there, let me know if 747 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,719 Speaker 2: you have anything else you want to add. But until 748 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,840 Speaker 2: next time, stay safe, be kind, to be gentle with yourself. 749 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 2: I had so much fun exploring this with you today 750 00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:11,279 Speaker 2: and we will talk very very soon.