WEBVTT - COVID-19 Chapter 18: Conservation & Pandemics 0:00:00.920 --> 0:00:03.680 My name is Mierica and I've been a vetinary systant 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:05.760 for almost four years and I'm currently in the middle 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:10.240 of completing my Veternary Technician diploma. I work in Vancouver, BC, Canada, 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:13.039 and have been working throughout the COVID nineteen pandemic along 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:15.840 with everyone else in the field, as we redeemed an 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:19.520 essential service. As a vetinary assistant, I am exposed to 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:22.840 stress and trauma on a daily basis. I witness pain 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:26.360 and suffering of both animals and their owners, and I 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:29.560 am often holding animals as they take those hard final breaths. 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:35.480 It's not all puppies and kittens. Clients are stressed and anxious, 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:39.159 and they often take it out on the staff. Throughout COVID, 0:00:39.240 --> 0:00:42.480 we have implemented a client free policy and only allow 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:45.360 patients into and out of the building. While this helps 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:48.760 keep us safe, it also poses a bunch of logistical obstacles. 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:51.639 We went from normal practice to a brand new way 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:54.440 of operation we have never had to do before. Overnight. 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:57.360 We split our staff into two teams and spent the 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:01.880 next nine months working short staffed. Clients were angry they 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:04.120 could no longer come inside with their beloved pets and 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:07.720 many thought we were over exaggerating this COVID thing. I 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.600 personally was working one month on overnights and one month 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:14.800 off overnights for months on end, and I was exhausted. 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:18.119 Oftentimes I was on my own and having to deal 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:22.840 with an angry client as well as sick patients. Veterinary 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:27.160 medicine is hard even in the best of times. Veterinary 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:31.240 medical professionals are three times more likely to commit suicide 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:34.800 than the average person. Many of us are on anti 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:39.360 anxiety or depression medication, I being one of them, and 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:42.360 work eleven plus hour days with little to no breaks 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:45.560 even to go to the bathroom. COVID has only made 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:48.720 things worse. Along with the pressures that COVID has placed 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:51.559 on our profession, there is often a lot of moral 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:55.440 pressure as well. When clients have low funds, they expect 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:58.520 us to do things for free. If we don't, we're 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:00.760 seen as monsters who are in it for the money, 0:02:01.000 --> 0:02:05.360 because aren't we supposed to be helping sick animals. Anyone 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:07.840 who works in vet med will tell you that nobody 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:10.720 goes into this profession for the money. While we get 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:14.000 into this work because we love it, we also have 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:18.320 bills to pay and families to support. Especially here, Vancouver 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:20.679 is the most expensive city in Canada to live in, 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:24.640 with the average one bedroom apartment costing two thousand dollars 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:28.959 a month. During COVID we have been the busiest we've 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:32.160 ever been. We've had to stop accepting new clients as 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:34.760 we just don't have the capacity to take on anymore. 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:37.440 For a while, we had an average weight of three 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:40.440 months for a surgical procedure and two weeks for an appointment, 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:42.840 which doesn't sound like a lot, but it is a 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:47.240 very long time in veterinary medicine. With the incredible upsurge 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:50.480 impet adoptions while people work from home due to COVID, 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:55.800 emergency and general practices alike were overwhelmed in veterinary medicine. 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:58.520 We are all worried about what will happen once people 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:02.359 are back to work. We all expect animal abandonment to 0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.880 skyrocket as people realize that they're now nine month old 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:10.079 German shepherd cross has horrible separation anxiety because its owners 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:12.799 we're home all the time, and now when they leave 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:16.840 for work, it destroys their apartment and they can't handle 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:17.440 it anymore. 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:19.200 While we are. 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:21.400 Lucky to be able to put social distancing measures in 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:24.720 place to keep clients and staff safe. We are not 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:30.360 immune to COVID transmission. We are all exhausted physically, emotionally, 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:34.600 and mentally. I'm tired of being verbally abused by clients 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:37.240 for charging for our time as if it's not valuable. 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:41.040 I'm tired of hearing that I'm only in it for 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:44.839 the money as I stay late to comfort a pet 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:49.480 who is in critical care. I'm tired of being told 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.400 that I'm a bad person for needing to pay my bills. 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:57.920 Please be kind to your veterinary staff. We are all suffering, 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:02.520 and I promise you we understand your frustration. We deserve 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.520 to be treated with dignity and respect. And if you're 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:09.960 a veterinary worker, I see you, I understand your struggle, 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:14.040 and you're not alone. If you need help, please reach 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:16.159 out to somebody. Thank you. 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:21.320 My name is A d I'm a volunteer EMT in Israel. 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:26.400 I've been volunteering for the last four years and I've 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:31.520 been volunteering even more during COVID. I've got to see 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:37.040 some very unusual cases during this crisis, whether people who 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:42.400 had to go to the hospital but refused due to 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:47.080 fear of COVID, or people who had COVID but other 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:51.080 medical conditions and refuse to leave because they couldn't be 0:04:51.120 --> 0:04:54.480 accepted into the regular ward instead of the COVID unit. 0:04:55.800 --> 0:05:02.080 I've got to go with pregnancies that had to be 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:08.640 taken to the COVID unit, or just sit in people's 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:15.400 houses for an hour, just giving them the company they 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:19.640 need and providing them a mental relief because they couldn't 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:23.440 leave the house. I've been called to so many elderly 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:28.960 people just so they could have a social interaction, or 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:33.880 I've taken elderly people to a mental ward just so 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:38.960 they could have the help they need. When the vaccine came, 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:43.280 I was actually very happy, thankfully. I got my first 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:48.440 vaccine dose at the end of December last year when 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:52.800 they just started coming out. I am happy that the 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:55.719 vaccines are out, and I am happy that my family 0:05:55.720 --> 0:06:00.640 took it, and I am happy that I'm managed to 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:07.800 get friends to take the vaccine. I would love to 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:12.880 see situation and ambulances and go back to normal and 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:19.080 people actually having social interactions because I've seen the mental 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:24.120 and physical devastation that it causes. People dying due to 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:27.719 heart issues that could have been easily solved if they've 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:31.600 just gone to the er with us, or people who 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:37.640 just died of loneliness, which is something that should have 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:39.279 been taken more care of. 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:46.600 Hello. I'm Sarah. I'm fifty one. I live in Herefordshire 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:50.200 in the UK with my fiance and I'm a grower 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:56.360 supervisor for a medium sized wholesale horticultural company growing thousands 0:06:56.400 --> 0:07:02.200 of potted ornamental plants. When the lockdown came, our general 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:05.160 manager was all over it. He found work for the 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:08.200 seasonal staff we weren't going to keep at a local 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:12.200 food factory and everyone who could be spared was furloughed. 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:15.680 In the UK, the government covered eighty percent of the 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:20.400 furloughed wages, including my fiancee who works in the loading bay. 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:25.840 My department cares for the plants, so obviously we couldn't 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:30.480 be furloughed. We expected business to drop through the floor. 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:34.480 It wasn't a walk in the park. But what we 0:07:34.600 --> 0:07:38.080 didn't expect was that the moment people were forced to 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:43.040 stay indoors, they became desperate for plants to bring nature 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:48.840 into their homes. Garden centers were closed, but supermarkets increased 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:52.520 their orders. My fiance was brought out a furlough after 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:56.240 only three weeks and worked twelve hour days until we 0:07:56.320 --> 0:08:00.840 got our seasonal staff back in May. It was exhausting. 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:06.800 Working during a national lockdown is strange. It's like going 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:10.800 to work in the apocalypse. Then you go home with 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:14.600 only enough energy to browse social media and no one 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:18.680 has the same experience as you. Suddenly you have nothing 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:23.320 in common with longtime friends. The one time I tried 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:25.960 to express this, I got shot down in flames for 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:28.880 not just being grateful that I still have a job, 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:32.800 which I am. Maybe I should add here that I'm 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.360 being referred to a chronic fatigue clinic. So I may 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:39.920 have struggled more than others, but we were all exhausted. 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:44.959 Now we're in the second lockdown. Our wedding got canceled 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.840 just fifteen days before the date, but we scheduled for March. 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:53.440 Now we can't get ppe suits for spraying, so we 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:57.040 may lose crops soon, on top of losing the Wales 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:04.160 in Scotland markets because they're lockdown. Horticulture has been previously 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:08.120 treated like a poor cousin. Our general manager's daughter was 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:11.400 told that she was too intelligent to go into horticulture. 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:17.199 For the record, by training, I'm a horticultural research scientist. 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:22.680 I have a research master's. Maybe now we'll be less 0:09:22.679 --> 0:09:27.480 overlooked by schools and colleges as viable careers we're hiring 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.560 and any field you might be interested in, from the 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:36.040 grunt work through to logistics, through to science, it all 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:40.640 has its place. More than that, I hope people remember 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:44.040 just how much they needed nature during this time. 0:09:45.480 --> 0:10:33.520 Thank you, Thank you again so so much for sharing 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:34.800 your stories with us. 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.240 And thank you to everyone who has written in to 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.199 share your COVID nineteen experience with us. 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:40.320 We really appreciate it. 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:44.520 Yeah, we do. Hi, I'm erin Welsh and I'm erin 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:48.320 Alman Updike and this is this podcast will kill. 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:52.480 You And Welcome to chapter eighteen of our Anatomy of 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:53.559 a Pandemic series. 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:57.920 Welcome. I can't believe we've made it this far, but 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:00.000 also I can totally believe. 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:02.280 I know same, I feel the same. 0:11:02.920 --> 0:11:08.559 Yeah, we are very excited for this episode because it's 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.920 kind of a continuation of an earlier episode. 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:15.520 We had an episode fairly early on in this series 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:19.240 that was all about spillover events where we spoke with 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:22.200 doctor John and Mazette from the One Health Institute about 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:27.080 the search for emerging viruses, the interface between wildlife, the environment, 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:30.080 and human health, and her work with the Predict Project, 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:33.280 which focused on detecting viruses of pandemic potential. 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:34.880 It was a great episode. 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:39.079 It was really great. I loved it. And today we're 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:43.640 talking about similar topics but with a different view. What 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.360 have we learned now that we're over a year into 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:50.720 a global pandemic about how exactly this virus spilled over 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:53.640 and how has it changed the way that we think 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.080 about the potential for future pandemics and how we prepare 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:57.440 for them. 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:01.040 Yeah, it's going to be a good one. But first, 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:03.840 of course, we have very important business to attend to. 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:05.440 What time is it? 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:06.640 It's quarantiney time. 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:10.360 Wonderful. What are we drinking this week? 0:12:10.679 --> 0:12:15.360 Of course, Aaron, We're drinking Quarantiny eighteen. Well that makes sense, 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:21.319 which has apple brandy, lemon juice, orange juice, maple syrup, 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.560 some bitters, and a little bit of grated nutmeg just 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.840 for you know, grading netmeg. 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.240 Yeah, we're running out of different liquors or liqueurs to 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:33.000 put in our quarantini, so. 0:12:33.320 --> 0:12:34.520 I have to get creative. 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.880 We will post the full recipe for Quarantiny eighteen, as 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:41.800 well as the non alcoholic Placybrita on our website This 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:44.480 Podcast will kill You dot Com, as well as on 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:46.520 all of our social media channels. 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.760 Speaking of our website, have you checked it out yet? 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:51.839 It's a pretty great website, it is. 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.080 It is. We've got a lot of fun stuff on there. 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:58.320 We of course have every reference that we ever use 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:01.440 in any of our episodes. We've got some links to 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:04.280 some great things like bookshop dot org, affiliate account, a 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:08.400 Goodreads list, We've got transcripts, we've got amazing merch we've 0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:11.640 got links to all of the promo codes you hear 0:13:11.720 --> 0:13:14.960 in our ads, and we also finally set up a 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:17.199 Patreon by popular request. 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:21.040 So you can find all those and so much more 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:23.400 at this Podcast will kill You dot Com. 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:27.520 Yes, all right, let's get to the actual business now. 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:31.120 I am really really excited for this episode. We were 0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.320 so fortunate to get to chat with doctor Chris Waltzer, 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:37.520 who is the executive director of Health at the Wildlife 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:38.720 Conservation Society. 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.160 Oh my gosh, so exciting. 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.800 It was such a great conversation and I honestly learned 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:45.400 so much. 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:49.079 Oh totally so we chatted with doctor Waltzer back on 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.920 April sixth, so keep that in mind if there are 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:55.480 any numbers discussed, and we will let him introduce himself 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:56.840 right after this break. 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:24.960 Hi. I'm Chris Waltz. I'm a board certified wildlife veterinarian 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:28.440 and I'm the executive director for Health at the Wildlife 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:33.400 Conservation Society. I work out of the Bronx in New York. 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:40.080 We have a global conservation program in that spans some 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:44.400 sixty countries around the globe, and my work is responsible 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:47.400 for health aspects across those countries. 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:48.960 Excellent. 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:52.680 Thank you so much for joining us. We're really excited 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:56.920 to chat with you. So our first question is, we 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.680 actually had an episode many months ago, close to a 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:04.800 year ago now where we focused on spillovers and we 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:08.560 know that sars kov two very likely spilled over into 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:12.560 humans from an animal reservoir of some kind. But now 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:15.200 that we are well over a year into this pandemic, 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:18.080 what do we know about the sequence of events that 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:21.920 led to the spillover in this pandemic? Can you kind 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:24.600 of walk us through the timeline of those early days. 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.880 Yeah. Thanks, that's a really good question because and it's 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.400 really timely as well, because just a few days ago 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:36.240 the WHO I Think Commission they were called, release their report, 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:39.360 which also provides a really great overview of the timeline. 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:42.200 So basically what you have in the last weeks of 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:46.240 December twenty nineteen, you know, there was a recognition of 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:50.000 a severe respiratory disease which we now know is COVID 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:52.440 nineteen and I was sort of noted by Chinese health 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:57.920 workers in the city of Wuhan, and within a few 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:03.120 few weeks, by the time January, already the causative agent 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.560 had been identified and the sequence of which was also 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:11.200 made publicly available, which is really an extraordinarily short time. 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:15.080 So basically, at the end of December, something news turning up. 0:16:15.120 --> 0:16:18.840 It doesn't it doesn't look like fluid influenza tests and negative, 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:21.720 Sarus seems to be negative, and then by the tenth 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.040 of January you already have a sequence for what we 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:28.440 now know is the SARS coronavirus. Too. By looking back 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:31.360 now at the data that the collated, for example in 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:35.560 this WHO report, it seems very very unlikely that there 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:39.760 was any significant circulation of this virus or at least 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:46.480 clinical disease clinically apparent disease before November October November, there's 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:52.120 really no data looking at mortality events or looking at 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:56.440 clinical respiratory disease outbreaks in the city of Wuhan in 0:16:56.480 --> 0:17:00.480 May in the associated province, but you do you see 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:05.639 very clearly from the data from the National Notifiable Disease 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:09.600 Reporting System in China that by the end of December, 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:15.359 the virus plus the clinical disease was definitely circulating the 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:19.240 community within the city of Huhan, initially in the central 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:23.040 districts and then started to spread around these outside the 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:26.679 central districts, and then with about two weeks time delay 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:30.240 start seeing the increase immortality and clinical events also in 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:34.119 the province of Rubai. So the other thing that's quite 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:37.880 interesting that we now have summary data. As you remember, 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:41.800 back in January February, there was this very very strong 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:46.320 signal from the Huanan seafood wholesale market. The key was 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:50.600 that this market was selling live wildlife species. So there 0:17:50.640 --> 0:17:54.080 was seen, as in previous outbreaks like SARS, that it 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:58.840 may be a strong link he and initially many of 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:02.000 the cases were directly linked to that market, and then 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:04.560 as the weeks went on, there were more and more 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:07.119 reports well some of the cases are not linked to 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.280 this market, and there was a lot of questions around 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:12.320 what was the role of the market, if at all. 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:16.399 What we see now though, is that in these early 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.600 days people also had contacts. Some people also contact to 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:23.960 other markets. And I find it particularly compelling that there 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:29.199 are thirteen sequences available of saras COVID two with an 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:33.920 onset in December, and of those thirteen, all of them 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:38.800 had contact to a market. I think eleven of them 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:41.120 had a contact with the jhure Non market, and then 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:45.119 the able two to other markets. So that's a really 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:48.760 strong signal. And we also know now from some nine 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:53.000 hundred plus environmental samples that most of the positive samples 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:55.879 came from this western part of the market where the 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:59.639 wildlife was housed and traded. But we still do not 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:03.480 know at this point in time how the spillover event 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:08.360 actually happened. With the timing is pretty good, but what happened. 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:12.359 Was there an intermediary species, was it the traders, Was 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:16.320 it humans that brought the virus into the city, into 0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:18.680 the market. That's still pretty unclear at the moment. I 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:25.080 think the two main hypothesis at the moment from the 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:28.680 ancestral host, which is in a horseshoe bad species. And 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:33.359 as I'm sure you've discussed previously, this virus either spilled 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:38.040 over directly into humans with cryptic evolution, for example, in 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:42.000 a rural area and no one noticed, and then was 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:44.760 brought to the market where there was an amplification event, 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.240 or the more likely theory, and that's the one being 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:51.480 favored at the moment, is that it's spilled over into 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:55.480 an intermediary host and there's a lot of those available, 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:59.920 and then at the trading site or longer trade value chain, 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:02.560 it came to a spiller rint to humans. 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:07.880 Mm hmmm, that makes sense. Yeah. So people have been 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:12.359 studying spillovers and the emergence of novel viruses for a 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:15.919 very long time, and you know, they have been saying 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.919 also for a very long time that a pandemic just 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:23.240 like this was almost inevitable. And so knowing that, knowing 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:26.760 that something like this was almost inevitable, where do you 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:30.879 think that we went wrong on either a national level 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:35.160 or an international level in terms of preparedness or control. 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:38.920 So I think one of the most important things we've 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:44.160 learned is that the known science has been inadequately translated 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:48.040 for policy makers and decision makers. So this was known 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:51.040 and we all put ourselves on what you're saying, well, 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:53.760 this was no surprise. But what we should really be 0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:56.600 saying is if we knew this, how come we were 0:20:57.000 --> 0:21:01.760 unable to or unwilling maybe to come communicate this adequately 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:06.800 so that decision makers policimates could prepare us better for 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:09.840 this measure. That's sort of one aspect. I think that 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:14.919 general aspect from science and researchers that we would need 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:20.320 to make more efforts to translate our science findings beyond 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:23.800 publishing it in the highest impact journal that we can find. 0:21:24.400 --> 0:21:28.480 Just having a disease x buried somewhere in some report 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:34.440 is obviously inadequate. In this case, this is compounded by 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:39.320 the fact I would say that humans in general, or societies, 0:21:39.400 --> 0:21:45.600 humans and societies basically are always discounting the future. We're 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:51.560 obviously always taken by some short terms and immediate gains, 0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:55.879 and investing into the future, into the next generations, especially 0:21:55.920 --> 0:22:00.439 for events which have a low probability of happening, is 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:04.879 something we we we always discount. So that is definitely 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:08.359 sort of a foundational problem, and we need to get 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:11.280 over that if we want to move forward. I mean, 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:13.680 this is a this is a viral spill over we're 0:22:13.680 --> 0:22:17.280 talking about now, But climate change, you know, it's on 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:19.800 the heels, so to say, I think it's here now. 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:25.359 Plus the problem is growing every moment, and we're also 0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:28.160 discounting those effects at the moment. We still think we're 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:31.679 going to get over it somehow. So I believe that, 0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:34.320 you know, the lack of investment, the lack of understanding 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:40.360 of long term investments with low immediate returns of investment. 0:22:40.400 --> 0:22:43.000 I think, as I said, that's a real problem as well. 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:48.199 But the other one is one thing we all underestimated, 0:22:48.280 --> 0:22:50.840 I'm sure, and I use this sort of a royal 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:57.640 we all is the impacts, the broad and wide impacts 0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:00.840 that a single event is going to have on a 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:05.000 global scale. Who would have thought that we would not 0:23:05.320 --> 0:23:11.399 have enough ppe gloves needles as a prevention measure on 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:14.280 a global scale. And who would have known that six 0:23:14.320 --> 0:23:18.840 months later, eight months later, you still can't get spare 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:24.800 parts for multiple products. The interconnectness of the world I 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:30.639 think was sorely under matd. So the obvious one was 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:33.840 that the virus was able to spread super, super quickly 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:37.640 across the entire globe, but also the interconnectness of our 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:42.640 economic interdependency I think was something we really underestimated. 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:48.360 Yeah, definitely, So kind of on the flip side of that, 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:53.240 although you know, we've done things wrong or maybe missed things, 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:57.320 discounted things, at the same time, we've also seen over 0:23:57.320 --> 0:24:01.520 the last year massive biomedical accomplishments that have happened on 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:05.400 a timeline we've never that's really never been possible before. 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:07.600 So could you talk a bit about what things we 0:24:07.840 --> 0:24:12.160 did write or what things we maybe actually had prepared 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:12.960 for quite well. 0:24:14.000 --> 0:24:18.240 So mainstreaming messenger RNA vaccines I think is one of 0:24:18.240 --> 0:24:22.840 the greatest achievements that we have managed in this past year. 0:24:23.800 --> 0:24:29.560 And generally the development and deployment of multiple vaccines within 0:24:29.680 --> 0:24:34.800 a twelve month is really extraordinary. That's absolutely extraordinary. So 0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:39.000 that's a huge gain. And remember that things like messenger 0:24:39.119 --> 0:24:42.880 RNA vaccines are not only going to help us in 0:24:42.920 --> 0:24:47.280 this present pandemic, but it's also going to help us 0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:50.680 in the future, not only for infectious disease, but generally. 0:24:51.760 --> 0:24:57.040 If we reflect based on a maybe ten thousand meter view, 0:24:57.760 --> 0:25:00.720 then one of the things that the pandemic has really done, 0:25:00.720 --> 0:25:03.159 and I think this is One of the great opportunities 0:25:03.200 --> 0:25:07.960 that we have moving forwards is the pandemic has at 0:25:08.000 --> 0:25:13.000 a great cost, of course, but has humanized the fact 0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:19.400 that destruction of our planet, destruction of our environment impacts 0:25:19.520 --> 0:25:22.280 each and every one of us. Basically, it has made 0:25:22.280 --> 0:25:28.000 it real that destruction of a habitat halfway across the 0:25:28.040 --> 0:25:31.800 globe is going to kill potentially kill my neighbor in 0:25:31.840 --> 0:25:35.800 the bronx, and that is something we've never had before. 0:25:35.880 --> 0:25:40.000 I think each and every person I meet at least 0:25:40.040 --> 0:25:45.320 has some inkling that events on the other side of 0:25:45.359 --> 0:25:49.160 the globe, in the environment have potential to harm each 0:25:49.160 --> 0:25:52.840 and every one of us, impact our well being, our 0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:59.439 economic security, and in the end our lives. Yeah. 0:25:59.480 --> 0:26:05.639 Absolutely, So just to play with hypotheticals a bit, You know, 0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:08.919 a pandemic is such a product of its time in 0:26:09.080 --> 0:26:11.720 both in like the policies that are in place, in 0:26:11.800 --> 0:26:14.480 terms of how interconnected the world is, and so I 0:26:14.560 --> 0:26:17.160 kind of want to dive into you know, what might 0:26:17.240 --> 0:26:21.520 this pandemic have looked like if it happened in say 0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:24.439 two thousand and three, when stars happened, so instead of 0:26:24.440 --> 0:26:27.600 like sars kov one, what might have happened if it 0:26:27.640 --> 0:26:30.119 was actually SARS Kobe two in two thousand and three. 0:26:30.240 --> 0:26:33.679 Are there ways in which we've made scientific progress that 0:26:33.840 --> 0:26:37.840 might have changed the pandemic, either for the worse or 0:26:37.880 --> 0:26:40.440 for the better. But in any case, how do you 0:26:40.480 --> 0:26:43.399 think it might have played out differently than it could have, 0:26:43.520 --> 0:26:44.800 let's say, twenty years ago. 0:26:45.200 --> 0:26:48.680 Yeah, so obviously this is very hypothetical to think about 0:26:48.680 --> 0:26:51.920 how it would have played out, but based only what 0:26:51.960 --> 0:26:55.399 we know from SARS back in two thousand and two, 0:26:55.480 --> 0:26:58.520 two thousand and threes, one of the biggest differences the 0:26:58.560 --> 0:27:02.240 interconnectness of the world. Amount of people moving around the 0:27:02.320 --> 0:27:08.600 globe has just increased exponentially, so that enabled the virus 0:27:08.640 --> 0:27:12.719 to spread very very quickly. There was obviously, you know, 0:27:13.280 --> 0:27:16.840 bad luck around the New year as well, there was 0:27:17.080 --> 0:27:20.840 going to be more people traveling anyway, all that to 0:27:20.880 --> 0:27:24.080 be said, it's just there are so many more people traveling. 0:27:24.960 --> 0:27:28.880 So I think that's that's the biggest difference. On the 0:27:28.880 --> 0:27:32.200 flip side, of course, if you remember that, I think 0:27:32.240 --> 0:27:35.600 we were a year and a half into SARS before 0:27:35.640 --> 0:27:39.560 we knew what the virus was, and certainly it took 0:27:39.600 --> 0:27:42.080 a long time to even establish that it had a 0:27:42.119 --> 0:27:46.720 source in wildlife, and that now as I said, you know, 0:27:47.200 --> 0:27:50.480 it was only three weeks probably after the official recognition 0:27:51.800 --> 0:27:54.879 of the severe respiratory to zee, that we had a 0:27:54.920 --> 0:28:00.520 full sequence, had a phylogenetic tree that showed that the 0:28:00.680 --> 0:28:04.240 sequence was very close to BAT sequences and so on. 0:28:04.280 --> 0:28:09.480 So that's changed a lot, interestingly from the therapeutic side, 0:28:09.480 --> 0:28:13.679 And while that is certainly not my expertise, there's not 0:28:14.040 --> 0:28:16.440 that much new at least is what I can see 0:28:16.480 --> 0:28:19.960 from the literature. You know, the mainstay, a good old 0:28:20.040 --> 0:28:25.320 veterinary drug that we use widely for respiratory disease when 0:28:25.320 --> 0:28:28.359 it gets dire dexa metasone is still you know, it 0:28:28.440 --> 0:28:32.920 was a mainstay halfway through this pandemic. And then, as 0:28:32.960 --> 0:28:35.080 I pointed out before, of course what's new as well 0:28:35.160 --> 0:28:38.480 is that we have a vaccine in one year. Remember 0:28:38.520 --> 0:28:43.840 the SARS vaccine development basically petered out after you know, 0:28:44.040 --> 0:28:48.160 a decade of no cases of SARS. So I think 0:28:48.280 --> 0:28:50.760 that's sort of my take of what would have been different. 0:28:51.600 --> 0:28:55.080 Yeah, So kind of going back to something you were 0:28:55.120 --> 0:28:59.560 talking on earlier today about the kind of large scale 0:28:59.680 --> 0:29:04.040 coal markets that sell and trade in wildlife. These type 0:29:04.040 --> 0:29:06.680 of markets have been implicated not just in this pandemic, 0:29:06.720 --> 0:29:09.160 but like you said, in other large epidemics before this, 0:29:09.680 --> 0:29:11.520 and so they've kind of gotten a lot of press, 0:29:11.560 --> 0:29:14.640 which has led to some controversies, with some people saying 0:29:15.080 --> 0:29:18.800 we should ban the wildlife trade, ban hunting on wildlife completely, 0:29:19.320 --> 0:29:22.200 and other people pushing back and saying, well, these are 0:29:22.240 --> 0:29:25.479 sources of protein for people who need it for nutrition, 0:29:25.680 --> 0:29:26.160 et cetera. 0:29:27.120 --> 0:29:28.120 But this is a much. 0:29:27.920 --> 0:29:30.720 More nuanced problem than just like to ban or not 0:29:30.760 --> 0:29:33.320 to ban. So could you talk us through some of 0:29:33.360 --> 0:29:37.320 this nuance and the interplay between these commercial wildlife markets 0:29:37.360 --> 0:29:41.560 and spillover events and wildlife hunting for subsistence purposes. 0:29:42.360 --> 0:29:44.560 Yeah, I think the key point here is there is 0:29:44.560 --> 0:29:47.960 a lot of nuance and the use of wildlife for consumption. 0:29:48.080 --> 0:29:49.880 For it, there's a lot of nuance in use of 0:29:50.160 --> 0:29:53.240 wildlife generally, but let us focus on use of wildlife 0:29:53.280 --> 0:29:58.440 for human consumption, and there's a huge gradient here in 0:29:58.480 --> 0:30:06.920 Southeast Asia and China specifically. Wildlife for consumption has certain attributes. 0:30:06.960 --> 0:30:10.800 First of all, the wildlife is often sold alive, which, 0:30:11.200 --> 0:30:13.840 as you can imagine, when you sell in a large, 0:30:13.880 --> 0:30:17.080 industrial sized market where you will have hundreds of species 0:30:17.080 --> 0:30:23.520 potentially mixing with the consumers, but also with domestic livestock 0:30:23.560 --> 0:30:27.320 and poultry, these are provides a really dynamic and very 0:30:27.400 --> 0:30:31.800 very dangerous interface for virus exchange, so that's quite special. 0:30:31.880 --> 0:30:35.560 Though in Southeast Asia and China, the animals are alive 0:30:36.560 --> 0:30:40.880 across all of China. There is no subsistence hunting anymore. 0:30:41.240 --> 0:30:45.640 The wildlife is produced for a middle class and up 0:30:45.640 --> 0:30:49.320 and coming middle class as a luxury item, as a 0:30:49.320 --> 0:30:54.880 status symbol. The wildlife is always more expensive. So it's 0:30:55.040 --> 0:31:00.880 estimated that wildlife you know, bamboo rats and the civets 0:31:00.880 --> 0:31:04.720 and so on, costs between two and five times as 0:31:04.760 --> 0:31:08.280 much as pork of the same volume, all the same weight, 0:31:08.800 --> 0:31:13.440 so it's definitely a luxury item. It doesn't meet any 0:31:13.520 --> 0:31:20.000 dietary or nutritional needs. Now that is starkly contrasted to, 0:31:20.160 --> 0:31:24.920 for example, the use of wildlife meat in Central Africa, 0:31:25.800 --> 0:31:29.880 where there are millions of people who are absolutely dependent 0:31:30.400 --> 0:31:34.680 on having access to wildlife meat to meet there are 0:31:34.880 --> 0:31:39.480 simple nutritional needs and you know that's protein and also 0:31:39.600 --> 0:31:43.800 micronutrient needs. They need that access because there are absolutely 0:31:43.840 --> 0:31:49.080 no alternatives now the way these two markets, and you know, 0:31:49.800 --> 0:31:53.800 similar markets are in Latin America and other parts of 0:31:54.280 --> 0:31:57.120 Asia as well. But taking these two is the extreme. 0:31:58.440 --> 0:32:04.200 As you're hunt out the forests in let's say Central Africa, 0:32:04.640 --> 0:32:09.520 part of that meat is being used in large cities 0:32:09.560 --> 0:32:12.480 where there is no longer a nutritional need. Some of 0:32:12.520 --> 0:32:15.120 it is being shipped across the globe to end up 0:32:15.120 --> 0:32:19.240 in markets in Asia. And so what you're doing with 0:32:19.320 --> 0:32:23.240 the commercial trade of wildlife for consumption is that you're 0:32:23.240 --> 0:32:26.520 actually depriving the people who need it the most, which 0:32:26.560 --> 0:32:31.080 is mostly indigenous peoples and local communities of that resource 0:32:31.200 --> 0:32:34.760 which is so important to them. So the two are interconnected, 0:32:35.520 --> 0:32:40.040 and the bands on the curbing of wildlife for human 0:32:40.080 --> 0:32:43.040 consumption from our point of view, from the point of 0:32:43.120 --> 0:32:47.240 view of the wildlife conservation society, focuses very very strongly 0:32:47.600 --> 0:32:52.840 on the urban commercial wildlife markets, while at the same 0:32:52.960 --> 0:32:57.800 time recognizing and supporting indigenous peoples in local communities and 0:32:57.840 --> 0:33:02.960 their need and their right to access wildlife meet So 0:33:03.000 --> 0:33:08.400 it's not complicated, but it's very nuanced and it does 0:33:08.480 --> 0:33:15.640 require a clear understanding of the dynamics in different contexts. Now, 0:33:16.160 --> 0:33:18.959 as I pointed out, the fact that the animals are 0:33:18.960 --> 0:33:23.640 alive is definitely the biggest risk. Once the animal has 0:33:23.720 --> 0:33:27.600 been killed, and smoked and processed in any way, the 0:33:28.320 --> 0:33:33.520 risk drops by orders of magnitude. Of course, once it's 0:33:33.520 --> 0:33:37.280 been cooked, there's no worry there at all. But with 0:33:37.440 --> 0:33:41.800 the life wildlife trade you do have this issue that 0:33:41.960 --> 0:33:46.640 as the animal moves along the trade value chain from 0:33:46.680 --> 0:33:52.000 its side of capture or the farm where it's being produced, 0:33:52.280 --> 0:33:56.000 to the market or the kitchen in the restaurant, the 0:33:56.240 --> 0:34:02.200 prevalence or the positivity rate to a specific pathogen actually increases. 0:34:02.920 --> 0:34:05.719 So we've been able to show that for field rats, 0:34:05.760 --> 0:34:09.080 for example, along the trade value chain in Vietnam, at 0:34:09.080 --> 0:34:12.360 the field site where it's captured or bred, it's only 0:34:12.480 --> 0:34:16.840 every fifth rat which would be positive for coronavirus. By 0:34:16.880 --> 0:34:19.920 the time he gets to the kitchen in the restaurant 0:34:19.920 --> 0:34:22.280 in an urban setting, every second one of those rights 0:34:22.320 --> 0:34:25.920 is coronavirus positive. And the sad thing is this has 0:34:25.960 --> 0:34:29.920 already been shown back in two thousand and four for civets. 0:34:30.440 --> 0:34:36.240 Civets and farms in China had practically no amptibodies to SARS, 0:34:36.840 --> 0:34:40.880 but by the time they'd reached the market site, I 0:34:40.920 --> 0:34:44.480 think eighty percent of them were positive for SARS. So 0:34:44.600 --> 0:34:49.640 this concentration and amplification along the market value chain is 0:34:49.640 --> 0:34:52.240 something that's really really important to consider. 0:34:52.800 --> 0:34:56.640 Yeah, that makes sense, and so kind of going along 0:34:57.280 --> 0:35:03.719 with this discussion of wildlife, hunting and biodiversity and interconnectedness, 0:35:04.400 --> 0:35:07.040 can you talk a little bit about the measures that 0:35:07.080 --> 0:35:10.920 we have in place to prevent spillover events and or 0:35:11.000 --> 0:35:14.719 maybe just prevent spillover events from turning into another pandemic, 0:35:15.280 --> 0:35:18.520 And can you discuss that sort of in the context 0:35:18.600 --> 0:35:22.120 of wildlife and forest conservation. How do those things fit 0:35:22.160 --> 0:35:25.760 into this equation of spillover events and pandemic control. 0:35:26.400 --> 0:35:30.239 Yeah, so when we talk about pandemic control, I think 0:35:30.239 --> 0:35:32.600 it's also important we want to prevent epidemics as well. 0:35:32.600 --> 0:35:34.879 We don't always have to go all the way full 0:35:34.920 --> 0:35:40.160 blown full Monty pandemic, but epidemics as well is somewhat 0:35:40.200 --> 0:35:44.160 to prevent. Now it's the most important concept. We're so 0:35:44.360 --> 0:35:47.799 focused now on the market because this is obviously this 0:35:47.880 --> 0:35:50.680 is an interface that is a particular concern to us, 0:35:50.719 --> 0:35:54.879 but on a much more basic level, it's all about interfaces. 0:35:55.520 --> 0:35:59.440 Seventy five percent of all emerging infectious disease have their 0:35:59.480 --> 0:36:06.000 origin wildlife, So it's about this contact, these interfaces between 0:36:06.040 --> 0:36:11.120 wildlife and their habitat and humans. And the more contact 0:36:11.400 --> 0:36:16.440 we allow or enable on these contact areas, the greater 0:36:16.560 --> 0:36:19.279 the chance that one of the spillover events is going 0:36:19.320 --> 0:36:24.560 to be successful. So you have a compartment that's wildlife 0:36:24.600 --> 0:36:28.279 in an intact habitat, a lot of different species, one 0:36:28.360 --> 0:36:32.520 hundred thousands of viruses which are being shared, and the 0:36:32.560 --> 0:36:36.040 animals are not sick. They're just the reservoirs. It doesn't 0:36:36.040 --> 0:36:40.480 bother anyone. You put a road into that compartment, or 0:36:40.520 --> 0:36:44.000 you put a road alongside there, you're starting to DeForest 0:36:44.719 --> 0:36:47.680 and you're trying to bring out the logs right and 0:36:47.680 --> 0:36:50.360 the left of that road. You have created an interface 0:36:50.680 --> 0:36:55.959 with the formerly intact forest, and along that interface there's 0:36:56.000 --> 0:36:58.600 going to be incoursions. People will go into the forest, 0:36:58.719 --> 0:37:00.839 they will hunt there. They need to go hunt. They'll 0:37:00.880 --> 0:37:04.000 be trapping animals, they're getting fire wood, and within a 0:37:04.000 --> 0:37:08.080 few hundred meters there will be repeated contacts with wildlife. 0:37:08.760 --> 0:37:11.239 They will return to the road and then they will 0:37:11.280 --> 0:37:15.520 try to sell surplus wildlife. That animal will then move 0:37:15.600 --> 0:37:19.560 down the road and can be consumed and used. And 0:37:19.800 --> 0:37:22.920 as you can imagine, that is a possibility for a 0:37:22.920 --> 0:37:26.359 spillover event to occur. Now, these spill over events are 0:37:26.360 --> 0:37:30.360 happening all the time. Viruses are spilling over constantly. The 0:37:30.440 --> 0:37:33.839 point being now that for the most part they do 0:37:33.880 --> 0:37:36.960 not cause disease. They are not able to replicate in 0:37:37.120 --> 0:37:39.839 human cells, and they certainly aren't able to transmit from 0:37:39.920 --> 0:37:44.239 human to human. But the more opportunities you provide at 0:37:44.280 --> 0:37:49.640 these interphases, it's like a numbers games. The more opportunities 0:37:49.680 --> 0:37:52.960 you provide, the greater the chance that eventually one virus 0:37:53.040 --> 0:37:56.080 is going to make it across the multiple barriers that 0:37:56.160 --> 0:38:00.319 stop that naturally. So these would be interphase. It's in 0:38:00.480 --> 0:38:05.359 forests and at the edges of growing industrial expansion where 0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:09.120 you have cattle pastures. Those are the classic interfaces. But 0:38:09.200 --> 0:38:11.680 then we as humans, of course, we're particularly good at this. 0:38:11.800 --> 0:38:14.320 So what we do is we'll go in the forest 0:38:14.320 --> 0:38:16.200 and catch animals from all over the globe and then 0:38:16.239 --> 0:38:19.480 bring them together in a room and a marketplace. So 0:38:19.480 --> 0:38:23.600 we create these, you know, basically super interfaces. That is 0:38:23.680 --> 0:38:27.480 probably you know, one of the worst ideas if you 0:38:27.520 --> 0:38:30.520 want to prevent spill over is to bring animals that 0:38:30.600 --> 0:38:37.160 are never to get normally into one place alive and 0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:40.960 let them exchange viruses and then add in several thousand 0:38:40.960 --> 0:38:44.480 people a day into that environment. That's just from a 0:38:44.960 --> 0:38:47.120 you know, looking at it from a risk side of things, 0:38:47.160 --> 0:38:50.919 that's just a very very bad idea. If you ask 0:38:51.040 --> 0:38:55.120 for a permit and you had a BSL four lab 0:38:56.040 --> 0:38:57.719 and you said, well, you know what I want to do. 0:38:57.760 --> 0:39:00.600 We want to get fifty species just kind of put 0:39:00.640 --> 0:39:02.520 them in there and they'll just let them poop and 0:39:02.600 --> 0:39:05.279 exchange blood and we'll see what comes out of it. 0:39:05.320 --> 0:39:07.560 And that's what we'd like to do. You never get 0:39:07.560 --> 0:39:09.919 a permit for it, but that's why you're basically doing 0:39:09.960 --> 0:39:15.520 in a market. So it's interesting that we don't consider 0:39:15.640 --> 0:39:20.560 or not we have not considered those threats adequately in 0:39:20.600 --> 0:39:22.840 the past, and no one's obviously going to pay for 0:39:22.920 --> 0:39:23.360 them now. 0:39:27.120 --> 0:39:31.320 So kind of along those lines, when we talk about 0:39:31.440 --> 0:39:36.520 you know, epidemic or pandemic preparedness and also epidemic and 0:39:36.640 --> 0:39:41.360 pandemic response, these are two very different aspects dealing with 0:39:41.400 --> 0:39:43.760 a pandemic and of course as part of the wildlife 0:39:43.800 --> 0:39:47.759 conservation society or dealing more with the pandemic preparedness and 0:39:47.880 --> 0:39:50.600 you know, identification aspect. But I wonder if you could 0:39:50.680 --> 0:39:53.680 touch a little bit about how these two different aspects 0:39:53.800 --> 0:39:57.680 really differ and maybe touch a bit on the importance 0:39:57.760 --> 0:40:01.200 of working across different sectors. We are looking at things 0:40:01.200 --> 0:40:03.160 like epidemics and pandemics. 0:40:03.840 --> 0:40:08.920 Yeah, so the one Lefe Conservation Society, as the name implies, 0:40:08.960 --> 0:40:12.680 we're a conservation organization with a very robust and long 0:40:12.719 --> 0:40:16.279 standing health program. So inherently we are working at what 0:40:16.480 --> 0:40:20.360 is perceived as the front lines of spillover. WCS is 0:40:20.400 --> 0:40:27.520 protecting forests and landscapes, especially those high biodiverse areas where 0:40:27.560 --> 0:40:31.320 we can expect and where models have shown that spillover 0:40:31.440 --> 0:40:36.480 is going to be more likely. So the first sort 0:40:36.520 --> 0:40:40.319 of say barrier against spillover and the next pandemic is 0:40:40.480 --> 0:40:46.839 recognizing when spillover does happen at a very very early stage, 0:40:48.080 --> 0:40:51.600 and even more importantly is of course preventing spillover to 0:40:51.640 --> 0:40:55.120 happen at all. So it is well known and has 0:40:55.160 --> 0:41:00.080 been documented in numerous studies that intact landscapes intact forests 0:41:00.640 --> 0:41:05.480 generally do not constitute such a threat as disturbed landscapes. 0:41:05.960 --> 0:41:10.160 Spillovers happen predominantly in disturbed landscapes, so on the edges 0:41:10.760 --> 0:41:16.960 of these intact areas. So wcs's mainstay is protecting areas 0:41:17.600 --> 0:41:20.680 and the communities that rely on them. That's the mainstay 0:41:20.680 --> 0:41:23.000 of our work. But around the edges, of course, in 0:41:23.080 --> 0:41:26.840 these edges of destruction, that's where the land is being changed, 0:41:26.880 --> 0:41:30.120 and this is the areas where we would expect future 0:41:30.760 --> 0:41:34.560 spill over events of importance to occur. And since we 0:41:34.600 --> 0:41:38.960 are already working there, we were able to sort of 0:41:39.000 --> 0:41:41.080 the eyes and boots on the ground in some of 0:41:41.080 --> 0:41:45.320 these areas where with our tools which we're using for conservation, 0:41:45.440 --> 0:41:48.280 they're easily adapted and have been adapted in these past, 0:41:48.719 --> 0:41:53.440 you know, past year to also pick up early indications 0:41:53.440 --> 0:41:57.239 of the spillover event, and that can now be prepared 0:41:58.040 --> 0:42:03.120 at you at frontline community health centers can be pared 0:42:03.160 --> 0:42:09.200 with innovative technology to get very early in diagnosis of 0:42:09.280 --> 0:42:12.960 something awry, I think, and I'm saying that on purpose, 0:42:13.480 --> 0:42:17.000 because what you want to actually notice is that there's 0:42:17.040 --> 0:42:22.120 something going on here which we cannot diagnose, but it 0:42:22.160 --> 0:42:25.719 has potential to be dangerous. Basically, it really breaks down 0:42:25.760 --> 0:42:29.280 to something very simple. When you have a febrile disease 0:42:29.320 --> 0:42:32.640 which is being transmitted in a community somewhere on the 0:42:32.760 --> 0:42:35.600 edge of a forest or a disturbed landscape, you want 0:42:35.600 --> 0:42:39.520 to be very attentive to that, so that part that 0:42:39.800 --> 0:42:44.279 pre pandemic pre spillover is really the mainstay as we 0:42:44.360 --> 0:42:48.920 move forwards, protecting landscapes, protecting our forests, protecting the environment 0:42:49.000 --> 0:42:54.520 in general, maintaining ecosystem function and biodiversity is probably one 0:42:54.560 --> 0:42:57.960 of the best investments we can make into the future 0:42:58.080 --> 0:43:04.080 and repair that with frontline and diagnostics and information networks. 0:43:04.120 --> 0:43:07.719 One of the things we've learned about working across sectors. 0:43:09.040 --> 0:43:14.760 Our organization is just inherently transsectoral, and you know governments, 0:43:14.760 --> 0:43:18.520 you would think that all the administrations and different ministries 0:43:18.560 --> 0:43:21.799 are talking to each other, are constantly and coordinating, but 0:43:21.840 --> 0:43:25.120 the reality is that's not happening. Most basic would be 0:43:25.200 --> 0:43:30.720 the agricultural sector is completely siloed from the public health sector, 0:43:31.239 --> 0:43:34.759 so spillover, for example, from wildlife to livestock and then 0:43:34.840 --> 0:43:40.000 onto humans would actually need to be addressed by different sectors. 0:43:41.000 --> 0:43:46.120 Interestingly enough, as an organization, we actually work already with 0:43:46.200 --> 0:43:49.960 both sectors, so we're often a great convener and a 0:43:50.120 --> 0:43:53.360 great place to share information and to make people aware 0:43:53.400 --> 0:43:59.280 of how these different areas are interconnected. So as we 0:43:59.360 --> 0:44:04.240 talk about frontline diagnostics and early onset sort of diagnostics, 0:44:04.440 --> 0:44:07.000 We also need to make sure that that information is 0:44:07.040 --> 0:44:10.480 made available into the existing public health networks, and that 0:44:10.680 --> 0:44:13.200 is really a challenge at the moment we need to 0:44:13.239 --> 0:44:16.360 address as we move forward. We really need to find 0:44:16.400 --> 0:44:21.000 out how to streamline that information and how to use 0:44:21.040 --> 0:44:24.280 that information. It's not that simple. 0:44:26.680 --> 0:44:30.600 Yeah, we know that this isn't going to be the 0:44:30.680 --> 0:44:34.759 last pandemic or the last epidemic that we see, unfortunately. 0:44:35.480 --> 0:44:37.920 So this is kind of a multi part question. But 0:44:38.239 --> 0:44:41.720 what are people like you, people who work in this field, 0:44:42.160 --> 0:44:45.440 most concerned about when it comes to the next potential 0:44:45.480 --> 0:44:48.400 pandemic And what are the areas that you feel we 0:44:48.440 --> 0:44:51.640 still have really big improvements to make either and how 0:44:51.640 --> 0:44:55.080 we prepare for or how we predict and try and 0:44:55.120 --> 0:44:56.880 prevent pandemics like this. 0:44:58.040 --> 0:45:00.279 I think one of the I believe one of the 0:45:00.320 --> 0:45:04.799 things we really need to address is the siloed structure 0:45:04.880 --> 0:45:09.880 of our governments and decision processes. We definitely if we 0:45:09.960 --> 0:45:13.440 want to address future pandemics and epidemics, we need what 0:45:13.560 --> 0:45:16.560 is called a one health approach, And so one health 0:45:17.000 --> 0:45:21.560 approach is an approach that does acknowledge that the health 0:45:21.600 --> 0:45:25.520 of humans, the health of animals, plants, and the environment 0:45:25.600 --> 0:45:31.280 are all entangled and interconnected, and by trying to only 0:45:31.360 --> 0:45:35.799 deal with one pillar, you will never be able to 0:45:35.840 --> 0:45:40.200 address these complex issues, as a pandemic has shown, so 0:45:40.560 --> 0:45:45.600 a one health framing, this kind of framing is essential, 0:45:45.680 --> 0:45:50.279 and I am seeing that across the globe as governments 0:45:50.280 --> 0:45:54.279 and administrations and multilaterals are scrambling to see how they're 0:45:54.280 --> 0:45:56.480 going to be able to implement that. So there's a 0:45:56.480 --> 0:46:01.719 broad realization that this is necessary. That great thing. On 0:46:01.760 --> 0:46:04.880 the other hand, we do have a problem that we're obviously, 0:46:05.200 --> 0:46:08.759 I mean calling it a problem is really an understatement. 0:46:09.239 --> 0:46:14.200 We do have this issue that we're talking about unknowns. 0:46:14.719 --> 0:46:17.320 As you will see in the media and in discussions, 0:46:17.360 --> 0:46:20.879 there's always this talk about zoonosis in the sense that 0:46:21.200 --> 0:46:25.000 the classic description we have an animal reservoir and pathogens 0:46:25.040 --> 0:46:29.200 spill over, known pathogens spill over into humans. But what 0:46:29.239 --> 0:46:32.000 we're dealing with with these pandemics is what are actually 0:46:32.080 --> 0:46:37.000 just zoonotic origin potential pathogens they spill over and then 0:46:37.040 --> 0:46:40.400 they don't need that animal reservoir at all anymore because 0:46:41.120 --> 0:46:43.520 they've got into the best host there is out there 0:46:43.520 --> 0:46:48.960 with nearly eight billion humans, So these zoonotic origin is 0:46:49.000 --> 0:46:52.920 just a small point in time and then all subsequent 0:46:54.320 --> 0:46:59.759 evolution and spread happens in humans, and to recognize which 0:47:00.360 --> 0:47:03.839 virus is going to become a pathogen of importance, it's 0:47:03.920 --> 0:47:09.200 a very very difficult process at the moment. So I 0:47:09.239 --> 0:47:13.319 always say, if we had described SARS coronavirus to mid 0:47:13.560 --> 0:47:17.040 twenty nineteen from one of the species we call in 0:47:17.080 --> 0:47:23.399 Southeast Asia, probably wouldn't even have published the paper. I mean, 0:47:23.440 --> 0:47:26.839 it wouldn't have surprised anyone to find something. It would 0:47:26.880 --> 0:47:29.880 have maybe been interesting because it was so closely related 0:47:29.920 --> 0:47:33.200 to SARS, but it would have just been another one. 0:47:33.920 --> 0:47:40.720 So how do we characterize these discovered pathogens quickly enough 0:47:41.040 --> 0:47:45.160 or these potential pathogens quickly enough that they can actually 0:47:45.239 --> 0:47:49.160 inform policy and decision makers. So that's going to be 0:47:49.200 --> 0:47:53.840 a tricky discussion and process in the next you know, 0:47:53.920 --> 0:47:58.520 hopefully shorter them later, But that's something we definitely need 0:47:58.560 --> 0:48:02.240 to work on. A lot of is own about sell entry 0:48:02.440 --> 0:48:08.080 and replication in human sales and transmission, But how do 0:48:08.120 --> 0:48:11.320 you process that information, which is often you know, basic 0:48:11.440 --> 0:48:16.080 research in labs so that it can actually inform policy 0:48:16.440 --> 0:48:19.040 and decisions. So I think that's one of the really 0:48:19.040 --> 0:48:22.320 big challenges moving forward. Yeah. 0:48:22.360 --> 0:48:28.399 Absolutely, So the pandemic has changed a lot of our 0:48:28.560 --> 0:48:32.200 daily lives, both from a big picture in terms of 0:48:32.280 --> 0:48:37.000 how we understand spillover events to you know how it's 0:48:37.040 --> 0:48:39.640 a you know, day to day change, maybe working from home, 0:48:39.960 --> 0:48:42.759 or saving a lot on gas this year, or doing 0:48:42.800 --> 0:48:47.360 grocery pickup, and so our last question kind of focuses 0:48:47.400 --> 0:48:50.239 on it's a more personal question. So what do you 0:48:50.800 --> 0:48:54.480 hope that we keep or learn from this pandemic, either 0:48:54.840 --> 0:48:57.840 something personal to you or maybe as a society. 0:48:58.920 --> 0:49:03.280 I think my main wish will be that we don't 0:49:03.280 --> 0:49:06.520 go back to where we were before. That's I think 0:49:06.800 --> 0:49:12.040 very very important. The pandemic has provided some extraordinary opportunities 0:49:12.080 --> 0:49:15.560 to make our world and our society is a better place. 0:49:16.200 --> 0:49:20.120 The pandemic, of course, isn't alone. The pandemic comes together 0:49:20.239 --> 0:49:26.919 with biodiversity loss, with climate change, global crisis, in inequities 0:49:26.920 --> 0:49:29.680 and injustice, and now this health crisis, so we have 0:49:29.880 --> 0:49:33.920 multiple crisis going on. They all are symptoms of an 0:49:33.960 --> 0:49:38.000 ailing planet. And I think the pandemic, because it has 0:49:38.160 --> 0:49:41.840 impacted the well being and the health each and every 0:49:41.880 --> 0:49:46.040 family across the globe, makes it more tangible that the 0:49:46.080 --> 0:49:50.719 planet is ailing. So I do believe that it's going 0:49:50.800 --> 0:49:53.319 to provide an opportunity for us to have a more 0:49:53.360 --> 0:49:56.960 respectful and humble approach to our planet. 0:50:30.480 --> 0:50:35.160 That was so great. Thank you so much, doctor Walter 0:50:35.400 --> 0:50:38.360 for taking the time to chat with us about spillover 0:50:38.480 --> 0:50:43.520 and conservation and viruses and policy and everything like all. 0:50:43.400 --> 0:50:44.720 The things we love to talk about. 0:50:45.000 --> 0:50:48.080 Yeah, exactly. And I also want to give a shout 0:50:48.080 --> 0:50:51.239 out to nat for helping us set everything up. That 0:50:51.440 --> 0:50:52.320 was so helpful. 0:50:52.320 --> 0:50:55.640 Thank you. Impossible without you. Thank you so much. 0:50:56.680 --> 0:50:59.160 All Right, should we go over the top five things 0:50:59.200 --> 0:51:01.960 that we want to take away from the interview? 0:51:02.160 --> 0:51:03.080 I think we should erin. 0:51:03.160 --> 0:51:05.279 You want to start us off, I will, all right. 0:51:05.440 --> 0:51:10.080 Number one, so we know now from retrospective analysis that 0:51:10.160 --> 0:51:14.960 the SARS covy two virus didn't likely emerge until November 0:51:15.000 --> 0:51:18.759 twenty nineteen, or perhaps at the very end of October 0:51:18.800 --> 0:51:22.080 of that same year. And it was December twenty nineteen 0:51:22.239 --> 0:51:24.680 when it was first noticed that a new to US 0:51:24.880 --> 0:51:29.360 unidentified virus was causing a febrile illness in Wuhan in China, 0:51:29.800 --> 0:51:33.759 and by January tenth that virus had been sequenced, which 0:51:33.800 --> 0:51:38.080 is like amazingly fast, still so fast, and today, we 0:51:38.160 --> 0:51:41.200 still don't know the exact sequence of events or the 0:51:41.320 --> 0:51:45.800 precise spillover event or events that took place that led 0:51:45.840 --> 0:51:49.480 to this new virus emergence, but we do know that 0:51:49.560 --> 0:51:53.120 the ancestral host of SARS Kobe two was likely a bat, 0:51:53.400 --> 0:51:57.960 But we can't pinpoint yet whether this virus spilled directly 0:51:58.000 --> 0:52:01.759 over from bats into humans or whether there was an 0:52:01.800 --> 0:52:06.360 intermediate host involved, which is probably more likely because that 0:52:06.440 --> 0:52:10.879 has been the case with other coronavirus epidemics. But one 0:52:10.920 --> 0:52:13.799 thing is certain, and that is that it's very likely 0:52:14.040 --> 0:52:18.760 that large scale wildlife markets where live wildlife are housed 0:52:18.800 --> 0:52:21.600 and sold, such as the seafood market in Muhan and 0:52:21.680 --> 0:52:26.200 others nearby, that these markets likely played an integral role 0:52:26.360 --> 0:52:29.080 in the emergence of this particular virus. 0:52:30.719 --> 0:52:31.239 Number two. 0:52:31.719 --> 0:52:37.040 We often see scientific developments inadequately translated into something policymakers 0:52:37.080 --> 0:52:41.680 can actually use to develop and implement public health policies. 0:52:42.360 --> 0:52:46.120 This may be in large part due to issues in communication, 0:52:46.560 --> 0:52:50.319 which of course we've touched on in every single one 0:52:50.360 --> 0:52:54.920 of our COVID episodes, but it also has to do 0:52:55.000 --> 0:52:59.239 with the fact that as humans, we are always discounting 0:52:59.239 --> 0:52:59.760 the future. 0:53:00.120 --> 0:53:02.720 Oh yeah, Yeah, especially when. 0:53:02.560 --> 0:53:07.600 That potential future has a low probability of happening, like 0:53:08.120 --> 0:53:12.520 spillover events turning into global pandemics. For example, we have 0:53:12.760 --> 0:53:16.120 known about spillover events and the scenarios in which they 0:53:16.160 --> 0:53:20.840 tend to occur. We have seen epidemics unfold countless times before, 0:53:21.280 --> 0:53:25.239 yet we still underestimate the potential impacts of a pandemic 0:53:25.600 --> 0:53:26.840 on a global scale. 0:53:27.880 --> 0:53:29.000 And the thing is, it's not. 0:53:28.920 --> 0:53:32.759 Just translating between scientists and decision makers, or even scientists 0:53:32.800 --> 0:53:35.960 and the general public. It's even getting information to flow 0:53:36.000 --> 0:53:40.320 smoothly between different sectors of government and these different agencies 0:53:40.360 --> 0:53:44.120 that actually make public policy. Often these different groups work 0:53:44.160 --> 0:53:48.360 with entirely different sets of information, which makes making collective, 0:53:48.480 --> 0:53:53.839 large scale decision making really difficult, if not almost impossible. 0:53:54.600 --> 0:53:59.719 Yeah yeah, number three. In some ways, this pandemic has 0:54:00.080 --> 0:54:03.520 brought to the forefront the fact that events that degrade 0:54:03.680 --> 0:54:07.560 or affect the environment thousands of miles away from where 0:54:07.600 --> 0:54:11.520 you are have the ability to directly affect our lives 0:54:11.560 --> 0:54:15.200 and our economies and our health. Not only does global 0:54:15.239 --> 0:54:17.919 travel make it possible for someone to be on three 0:54:17.960 --> 0:54:21.200 different continents in a span of twenty four hours, and 0:54:21.560 --> 0:54:24.160 during that time, they've been able to interact with thousands 0:54:24.200 --> 0:54:27.479 of other humans. Over the past year, we've also seen 0:54:27.560 --> 0:54:31.719 the impact of globalization in so many other ways, everything 0:54:31.840 --> 0:54:36.600 from not having enough ppe or testing equipment, or in 0:54:36.680 --> 0:54:40.799 terms of vaccine development, like we're still seeing supply chain difficulties, 0:54:40.880 --> 0:54:44.080 and even outside the realm of healthcare, we're seeing supply 0:54:44.239 --> 0:54:49.520 chain difficulties. Remember the toilet paper. This interconnectedness that we 0:54:49.600 --> 0:54:54.080 often underestimate has been impossible to ignore during this pandemic. 0:54:54.840 --> 0:54:59.040 And while this interconnectedness is the exact thing that allows 0:54:59.160 --> 0:55:02.400 pandemics like COVID nineteen to flourish, it also has a 0:55:02.440 --> 0:55:06.879 flip side because it's the same global network that has 0:55:07.000 --> 0:55:11.320 led to scientific progress, allowing us to identify and sequence 0:55:11.360 --> 0:55:14.880 this virus, trace its origin, and develop tests within a 0:55:14.920 --> 0:55:19.200 matter of weeks after its emergence. Despite how much havoc 0:55:19.239 --> 0:55:22.520 this pandemic has reaked, we have achieved a hecka a 0:55:22.560 --> 0:55:27.640 lot amazing new vaccine technologies have been tested, scaled up, 0:55:27.680 --> 0:55:30.759 and deployed all around the globe in record time. 0:55:31.800 --> 0:55:32.319 Number four. 0:55:32.880 --> 0:55:38.040 Speaking of scientific advancements, we have the technology to detect 0:55:38.239 --> 0:55:42.120 novel viruses and people have been working for decades identifying 0:55:42.200 --> 0:55:46.920 these new viruses in wildlife, But how do we characterize 0:55:47.160 --> 0:55:50.759 and decide where to put our funding to know which 0:55:50.800 --> 0:55:55.040 ones would really have pandemic potential. That is still a 0:55:55.080 --> 0:56:00.480 really big challenge. It's theoretically possible that some one could 0:56:00.560 --> 0:56:04.520 have found or identified a very similar virus to SARS 0:56:04.560 --> 0:56:09.200 CoV two in its original host, but couldn't have predicted 0:56:09.440 --> 0:56:11.360 that it would then cause this pandemic. 0:56:12.320 --> 0:56:14.120 We need new tools. 0:56:13.760 --> 0:56:17.759 To be able to process this massive amount of information, 0:56:18.160 --> 0:56:22.200 not only to identify these pathogens early, but this also 0:56:22.239 --> 0:56:25.680 then has to be paired with working with community health centers, 0:56:25.840 --> 0:56:29.120 with people who develop diagnostic tools to be able to 0:56:29.320 --> 0:56:33.360 identify on the ground in humans when things are awry 0:56:33.560 --> 0:56:37.040 or when risks pop up, and then those networks have 0:56:37.160 --> 0:56:40.920 to also be paired with larger information networks to share 0:56:41.000 --> 0:56:46.640 this data across the globe and then translate it to policymakers. 0:56:46.320 --> 0:56:48.319 And on and on and on. 0:56:49.440 --> 0:56:53.680 Pandemic preparedness really has to be very transsectoral work for 0:56:53.760 --> 0:56:56.959 it to be effective. What we need is a one 0:56:57.040 --> 0:57:02.120 health approach which acknowledges that animal, human, and environmental health 0:57:02.120 --> 0:57:05.480 are all very interconnected and we have to address all 0:57:05.520 --> 0:57:08.840 of them, not just piecemeal, but all together to ensure 0:57:08.880 --> 0:57:12.160 that the planet and us humans living on it actually 0:57:12.200 --> 0:57:15.240 are healthy. The good news is that this is starting 0:57:15.280 --> 0:57:18.240 to happen. This pandemic has I think led to a 0:57:18.280 --> 0:57:21.600 broad realization that this approach really is vital going forward. 0:57:21.720 --> 0:57:25.080 But like we said, even in an earlier learning point, 0:57:25.320 --> 0:57:27.520 getting all of these different sectors to talk to one 0:57:27.560 --> 0:57:29.280 another is still a challenge. 0:57:29.880 --> 0:57:31.160 Yeah. 0:57:31.320 --> 0:57:38.480 Number five, conservation is an integral part of pandemic prevention. Yeah, 0:57:39.040 --> 0:57:44.000 conserve the forests, conserve the planet, conserve wildlife, and we 0:57:44.040 --> 0:57:48.440 will likely incredibly reduce the potential for a pathogen to 0:57:48.480 --> 0:57:53.520 spill over and cause another pandemic or epidemic. Seventy five 0:57:53.640 --> 0:57:58.480 percent of all emerging infectious diseases have their origin in wildlife, 0:57:59.320 --> 0:58:03.760 but not every spillover event results in a global pandemic 0:58:04.040 --> 0:58:08.760 or even an epidemic. Viruses are constantly spilling over, but 0:58:08.920 --> 0:58:11.520 for the most part, they don't lead to epidemics or 0:58:11.600 --> 0:58:16.000 pandemics because they don't cause disease in humans, or if 0:58:16.040 --> 0:58:20.080 they do, they aren't transmissible from person to person. And 0:58:20.120 --> 0:58:23.800 it's not intact forest habitats that pose a threat, it's 0:58:23.840 --> 0:58:27.800 the edges. It's those disturbed habitats. The more that we 0:58:27.920 --> 0:58:33.160 increase the number of interfaces between wildlife, their habitats, and humans, 0:58:34.080 --> 0:58:37.600 the more we're playing a numbers game. We're just increasing 0:58:37.640 --> 0:58:40.919 the chances that a spillover event can occur, and we're 0:58:40.920 --> 0:58:44.320 increasing the chances that it will be successful, as in 0:58:44.560 --> 0:58:48.840 resulting in an epidemic or pandemic. Keeping live animals in 0:58:48.880 --> 0:58:52.760 cages at large scale commercial wildlife markets is one example 0:58:52.800 --> 0:58:55.480 of a place where you're really increasing the numbers of 0:58:55.520 --> 0:58:59.640 potential contexts, and it's why urban wildlife markets pose such 0:58:59.720 --> 0:59:03.040 a great threat in terms of zoonotic disease than wildlife 0:59:03.080 --> 0:59:06.920 that is consumed by local communities for subsistence. For example, 0:59:07.800 --> 0:59:12.080 conservation of our forests not only decreases the contact between 0:59:12.200 --> 0:59:16.720 humans and wildlife, it also preserves habitat for wildlife populations 0:59:16.760 --> 0:59:20.200 in areas where people actually depend on wildlife as a 0:59:20.240 --> 0:59:24.840 food source. Doctor Waltzer said that this pandemic is one 0:59:25.320 --> 0:59:30.120 just one of the symptoms of our ailing planet. Conservation 0:59:30.520 --> 0:59:32.160 has to be one of the treatments. 0:59:32.920 --> 0:59:36.760 Oh yes, that's I think my favorite take home point. 0:59:37.320 --> 0:59:41.200 Oh yeah, thank you again so much to doctor Waltzer 0:59:41.240 --> 0:59:43.200 for taking the time to chat with us, and to 0:59:43.320 --> 0:59:45.000 Nat for all of your help in getting all of 0:59:45.000 --> 0:59:46.080 this interview set up. 0:59:46.360 --> 0:59:50.160 Yes, and thank you again to everyone who has provided 0:59:50.200 --> 0:59:53.480 a first hand account in this episode, in just in 0:59:53.520 --> 0:59:57.120 our email, in filling out the form. Thank you to everyone. 0:59:57.480 --> 1:00:00.720 Yeah, we really feel very like to get to hear 1:00:00.760 --> 1:00:03.320 so many stories from you all. Thank you also to 1:00:03.360 --> 1:00:06.200 Bloodmobile for providing the music for this episode and all 1:00:06.240 --> 1:00:07.120 of our episodes. 1:00:07.440 --> 1:00:10.280 And thank you to the Exactly Right Network, of whom 1:00:10.280 --> 1:00:11.800 we are a very proud member. 1:00:12.280 --> 1:00:14.000 And thank you to you listeners. 1:00:14.640 --> 1:00:18.000 We have what two more episodes of this series erin 1:00:18.280 --> 1:00:21.120 I think so? Yeah, I think so so. 1:00:21.240 --> 1:00:23.640 Stay tuned, stay tuned. 1:00:23.800 --> 1:00:27.040 Thanks for sticking with us this whole journey. 1:00:27.200 --> 1:00:28.720 I know it's been a long one. 1:00:29.200 --> 1:00:33.400 It has well. Until next time, wash your hands 1:00:33.560 --> 1:00:34.640 You filthy animals.