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Speaker 1: Hello everybody, Hello, welcome back to the show. Oh I'm

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Speaker 1: so stuffed from all the giving so much. Thanks. Um.

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Speaker 1: What what are you grateful for this year? Oh? That's nice? Um, well,

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Speaker 1: I mean obviously this show. I mean say, this is

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Speaker 1: life changing. All are amazing fans that have been uh

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Speaker 1: so dedicated to keeping in touch with us and and

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Speaker 1: sharing our episodes and and giving us amazing feedback and suggestions.

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Speaker 1: I mean, not not to sound cheesy, but I am

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Speaker 1: genuinely very grateful for this show in the community around it. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I agree. It's it's both gratifying and flattering when people

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Speaker 1: are like, first of all, I'm listening to your show,

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Speaker 1: which just like that, right, and then to be like

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Speaker 1: and I'm engaging with it in a variety of ways.

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Speaker 1: It's like wise that is truly awesome. Yeah, I'm very

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Speaker 1: grateful for that as well. Yes, I'm very grateful to

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Speaker 1: be vaccinated, able to like go out again. Curiously, do

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Speaker 1: stuff feel a little less weird about it? And uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm grateful for normal ship too. Just

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Speaker 1: we have a house we can't afford and sure not

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Speaker 1: out in the cold. All very important things to be

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Speaker 1: grateful for. I mean, especially with these episodes, as we're

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Speaker 1: talking about some intense privations and so this these this

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Speaker 1: history has definitely made me very grateful for having multiple

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Speaker 1: hoodies and cantry full of food. I mean, it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a weird time to be alive, but well it

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Speaker 1: could be a lot worse. There were weirder times. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: for sure. I hope everybody had some tasty food and

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Speaker 1: some great friends and family that they were around, or

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Speaker 1: did your thing and said screw it, I don't like

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Speaker 1: Thanksgiving and I'm I'm taking this day to myself. That's

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Speaker 1: awesome too. Or if you had a contentious Thanksgiving with

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Speaker 1: some family members, I hope you one the fights. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I hope everyone had time to reflect on their you know,

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Speaker 1: many things to be grateful for. And uh, I hope

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Speaker 1: that you spent most of the dinner telling all your relatives,

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Speaker 1: your neighbors, your uncles and aunts. I know you saw

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Speaker 1: about ridiculous romance and are and Are part one Pocahontas

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Speaker 1: story about Pocahontas and John Smith and got them all

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Speaker 1: excited for part two, which we're going to do down.

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Speaker 1: I kind of hope, especially that you quoted all the

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Speaker 1: gross things that the colonists ate during the starving time

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Speaker 1: while you were seating, seating yourselves for your delicious meal,

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Speaker 1: like this one guy ate his own pregnant wife past

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Speaker 1: the gravy. Oh time makes it funny, right or something

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Speaker 1: like that. Sometimes distance plus time equals jokes. So I

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Speaker 1: think that's the math too soon. I didn't take I

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Speaker 1: didn't take a lot of math classes, to be fair.

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Speaker 1: What's it? I think mel Brooks said. Tragedy is me

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Speaker 1: cutting my finger? Comedy is you falling down an open sewer? Great? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is hilarious. That's hilarious. So true. Well, I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you what isn't true. Story about Pocahonis and John Smith

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Speaker 1: getting it on at some point in the sixts that

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Speaker 1: never happened. Okay, And in part one of our Pocahonists

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Speaker 1: two parter, we debunked that popular myth about her being

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Speaker 1: in love with John Smith and saving his life and

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Speaker 1: all that crap. In actuality, pocahont was just a child.

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Speaker 1: She only met John Smith a few times at most,

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Speaker 1: and it's not certain that his life was ever in

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Speaker 1: danger from the Powhattan tribes in the first place. But

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Speaker 1: the story doesn't end there. Pokeahon Is marries twice, once

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Speaker 1: to a fellow native coco Um and once to the

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Speaker 1: colonists John Rolf. So what happened to Cocoa? How come

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Speaker 1: John Rolph isn't part of the myth of Pocahonis. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what actually happened here? Let's find out. Yeah, let's go,

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Speaker 1: Hey their French come listen. Well, Elia and Diana got

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Speaker 1: some stories to tell. There's no match making, a romantic tips.

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Speaker 1: It's just about ridiculous relationships, a love. It might be

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Speaker 1: any type of person at all, and abstract cons at

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Speaker 1: are a concrete ball. But if there's a story where

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Speaker 1: the second glance ridiculous roles a production of I Heart Radio. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So remember we mentioned in part one, but just to

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Speaker 1: reiterate that where we got this story came from a

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Speaker 1: variety of sources um and pretty much the only indigenous

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Speaker 1: source out there that we can find from the native people,

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Speaker 1: uh is a book called The True Story of Pocahontas,

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Speaker 1: The Other Side of History, and that was by Dr

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Speaker 1: Lynwood Little Bear Coustallo and Angela L. Daniel silver Star UM.

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Speaker 1: And this story is an oral tradition passed down from

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Speaker 1: Pocahonta's own relatives. Um. So it is a skewed and

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Speaker 1: disputed version of the story. Um. But when you're weighing

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Speaker 1: it against what the English wrote down at the time,

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Speaker 1: you realize that kind of both of them have told

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Speaker 1: their own versions. Yeah. Um, and you've got to kind

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Speaker 1: of give a lot of credit to the people who

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Speaker 1: are actually going through this. Yeah. Yeah. It just feels

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Speaker 1: wrong to be like, oh, well, since it doesn't match

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Speaker 1: the written records, will say it's a lie when who

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Speaker 1: wrote down the written record? The guys are trying to

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Speaker 1: make themselves look good and and and the oral history

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Speaker 1: like fills in a lot of holes at times too,

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Speaker 1: and answers questions that the that the English version doesn't,

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Speaker 1: So that they're both uh you know, historically valuable takes um.

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Speaker 1: Both worthy of a grain of salt um, but both

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Speaker 1: very necessary I think, to to tell this story properly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And when we you know, as we try to,

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Speaker 1: we will make sure to tell you when the story

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Speaker 1: is super different, urgent and you know, expressed both sides

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Speaker 1: of it and you can talk it out. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of our favorite part. So when last we left the colonists,

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Speaker 1: George Percy's ship leadership had whittled them down from five

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Speaker 1: hundred settlers to only sixty. Unbelievable in less than a year. Two.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this guy sucked. And one day a supply

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Speaker 1: ship that had been stuck in Bermuda for ten months

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Speaker 1: finally arrived in Virginia. On board was a man named

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Speaker 1: John Rolfe, who was determined to get into the tobacco industry.

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Speaker 1: I guess back then it was I don't know, it's

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Speaker 1: so weird to read about tobacco back then, because they were,

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Speaker 1: like some people really thought it was a medicinal, had

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Speaker 1: a lot of medicinal properties. And this one guy who

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Speaker 1: wrote a lot about how it it's like fixed every

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Speaker 1: problem eventually died of nose cancer. Anyway, it's just really

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Speaker 1: fascinating to see what people were. Kind of how people

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Speaker 1: viewed tobacco at this time. That sounds a lot like

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Speaker 1: how we view marijuana now. I hope it doesn't meet

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Speaker 1: the same fate. It's almost like we should legalize it

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Speaker 1: so they can be studied for real. But anyway, if

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Speaker 1: only John rolf had boarded the ship the Sea Venture

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Speaker 1: in England carrying precious tobacco seeds from Trinidad, and no

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Speaker 1: one knows how he got his hands on him, because

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Speaker 1: at the time Spain had a monopoly on the tobacco

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Speaker 1: industry and they had made it punishable by death to

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Speaker 1: sell tobacco seeds to anyone but Spanish people. So speculation station.

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Speaker 1: I'd love to see John Rolf like walking up to

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Speaker 1: with someone in Trinidad being like, um when when its

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Speaker 1: tall days, Mi amigoes Um, I am definitely Spanish from Spain.

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Speaker 1: How do you any tobacco seeds? Poor favoury grassy saw

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Speaker 1: that smashing if you had any lying about um, just

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Speaker 1: take him off your hands. But people in Trinidad like,

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Speaker 1: well he I don't know, he said me, Ami goes

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Speaker 1: that sounds right, and they're like he's white, they're white. Whatever?

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Speaker 1: Giving me money here yea. But this ship, the Sea Venture,

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Speaker 1: had been shipwrecked in Bermuda, and for ten months the

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Speaker 1: settlers scraped by on the islands as they broke up

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Speaker 1: their leaky as big ship to make two smaller ones

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Speaker 1: to carry them the rest of the way to Virginia.

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Speaker 1: Some of these settlers, however, had died, maybe from harsh

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Speaker 1: tropical conditions or from low supplies for various other reasons,

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Speaker 1: and two of the people who tragically died here were

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Speaker 1: John Rolf's wife, Sarah and their infant daughter. So when

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Speaker 1: Rolf arrived in the New World, he was a widower.

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Speaker 1: There's this guy on board who was named Lord de Loire,

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Speaker 1: and he, by the way, is the guy they named

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Speaker 1: Delaware after Lord Delaware. That's true, um, and he was

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Speaker 1: there to be the new president of the Colony of Virginia.

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Speaker 1: As we mentioned in part one, when these ships arrived,

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Speaker 1: there were sixty crazed, half starved colonists running around in

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Speaker 1: this rundown fort, and Lord de Laire was like, uh no,

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Speaker 1: absolutely not, We're going back to England. Goodbye to this mass.

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Speaker 1: I imagine he's like Donald Glover in that meme from

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Speaker 1: Community where he walks in and everything's on fire and

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Speaker 1: people are running around screaming and the pizzas like never mind.

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Speaker 1: So they had back on the ship, but all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, this new ship showed up with a hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty extra settlers and a year's worth of provisions.

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Speaker 1: So Delaware is like, never mind, all ashore, who's going ashore?

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Speaker 1: And by the way, everyone's going ashore, So let's get

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Speaker 1: back to it. We're gonna give this the old College try.

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Speaker 1: And I think this is like round four of them

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Speaker 1: trying to make this work. Yeah, many rounds have happened,

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Speaker 1: English or nothing, if not Persist didn't. It's amazing. I

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Speaker 1: mean hearing their story in part one about how bad

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Speaker 1: they were, especially had John Smith not shown up and

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Speaker 1: saved their asses. That I can't believe the English did anything,

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Speaker 1: let alone were the largest empire in the world around

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Speaker 1: this time. It's shocking. And they literally like persistence win surprised.

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Speaker 1: If you can throw enough bodies at any situation, is

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Speaker 1: true theodies, and they have a lot of bodies. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, god, it's like we can't handle intense sunlight,

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Speaker 1: and we took over like half the equator. Uh, we

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Speaker 1: can't handle any diseases, and we would going to all

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Speaker 1: new places getting sick and dying left and right. We

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Speaker 1: don't know how to far we're bringing perfumers into farm.

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Speaker 1: It's incredible that they were able to do this horrible

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Speaker 1: and horrible. Yes, and Lord de la Wire had brought

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Speaker 1: a change of policy with him as well, because we

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Speaker 1: mentioned in Part one that the Virginia Company had sent

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Speaker 1: all these settlers with a pretty strong like don't offend

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Speaker 1: the natives sort of idea. Like they were like, whatever

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Speaker 1: you can do to avoid a skirmish with them, please do.

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Speaker 1: But at this point, the angle of p how hot

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Speaker 1: and war had broke out. Violence between the natives and

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Speaker 1: the settlers was escalating, and the Virginia Company was sick

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Speaker 1: of all this chaos. It was really making them look

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Speaker 1: bad around the drawing rooms of London. I mean actually that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the British did not like hearing about natives being badly

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Speaker 1: treated by there. It made him look bad, it really did.

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Speaker 1: They were like, we don't want to hear about that.

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Speaker 1: It's quiet. It's quiet if I hear about our behavior.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be all above board and honorable. And plus,

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Speaker 1: they were in the New World to make money. Damn it,

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Speaker 1: shouldn't we make some fine al We've been spending and

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Speaker 1: supplying and spending and supplying, and all we get our

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Speaker 1: dead bodies. So they decided that now it was a

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Speaker 1: okay with them to let Laura de Laire ruthlessly suppressed

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Speaker 1: by whatever means he saw necessary, any internal descent or

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Speaker 1: external threats, and that meant life got a lot more

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Speaker 1: brutal for the colonists and the tribes. So wait, so

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Speaker 1: the Virginia Company was like, first we said, don't treat

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Speaker 1: the native people badly, and you did, and that made

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Speaker 1: us look bad. So what we're going to change is

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Speaker 1: we're not going to say don't treat them badly anymore.

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Speaker 1: That way, that's unbelievable. Again, the decision making is a

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Speaker 1: real question mark for me. I don't understand how any

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Speaker 1: of these folks, for me, really fixing the wrong problem here.

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Speaker 1: And like, life was already so brutal for the colonists,

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Speaker 1: particularly already they were already in fighting, they're already starving,

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Speaker 1: they're already diseased. I mean, they already had so many problems,

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Speaker 1: and then they were just like creating more within themselves.

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Speaker 1: So it's really weird. Within Jamestown, martial law was introduced.

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Speaker 1: De l o. Wire would whip colonists for any infraction

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Speaker 1: like missing church Heaven forbid, literally yeah right. A second

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Speaker 1: defense of blasphemy was punished by having a lancet thrust

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Speaker 1: through the tongue. O good lord, you know, and these

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Speaker 1: are the guys that are calling everyone else savages, you know,

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Speaker 1: just like colonists who deserted or who rubbed the storehouse

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Speaker 1: were hanged, burned, broken upon wheels, and bound to trees

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Speaker 1: until they starved. Even stealing flowers from another colonist garden

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Speaker 1: became a capital offense. And again, I mean, like we're saying,

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Speaker 1: it just seems so weird to be like, okay, you

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Speaker 1: know what, too many people are dying. Let's make everything

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Speaker 1: an offense where you get executed. Like everything you do

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Speaker 1: you could get killed for it. That that'll fix it.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god. And of course they were even crueler

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Speaker 1: to the native tribes. They had previously engaged in skirmishes

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Speaker 1: with these tribes, of course, but usually on both sides.

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Speaker 1: They would they had their rules, you know, they would

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Speaker 1: leave the women and children alone. Or they often took

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Speaker 1: prisoners rather than brutalizing and killing everyone. Prisoners were more

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Speaker 1: valuable than corpses after all, right, Yeah, you can trade

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Speaker 1: them for things. Their negotiation and you know, negotiating tactics

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Speaker 1: or whatever. I mean. I remember in part one we

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Speaker 1: talked about the prisoners taught them how to farm and

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Speaker 1: and yeah, and they wouldn't negotiate, you know, they had

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Speaker 1: some So then Powhatan was like, here, I'll give you

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Speaker 1: some ship if you give me the guys back, and

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Speaker 1: vice versa. They were really was more valuable to not

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Speaker 1: kill someone than it was to kill them. But now

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Speaker 1: the English were done with all that, they attacked a

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Speaker 1: neighboring tribe and they killed everyone there, and they burned

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Speaker 1: down their houses and their crops. George Percy, who was

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Speaker 1: in charge of this raid, tried to spare the queen

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Speaker 1: and her children by taking them prisoner, but Lord de

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Speaker 1: Laire was like, no, the only good native is a

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Speaker 1: dead native. Percy wrote that they threw the children into

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Speaker 1: the river and then blew their brains out, just charming

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Speaker 1: way to put it. But when he was ordered to

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Speaker 1: burn the queen alive, Percy stood his ground. He said, new,

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Speaker 1: I will not do that. I have seen enough floodshed

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Speaker 1: for today. So instead he had some of his men

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Speaker 1: take her to the woods and kill her with swords. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's like I said, I've seen enough floodshed for today.

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Speaker 1: But someone else can see it. These chaps haven't seen enough.

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Speaker 1: Let them see a little, them, see a little George

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Speaker 1: Percy Villain of the week, except Dolore is worse. So

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Speaker 1: it's like, I guess England is the villain of the

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Speaker 1: week in this story. You know, it's I gotta say

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Speaker 1: we we I don't know how it is over in

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Speaker 1: the UK, and maybe some of y'all can enlighten me,

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Speaker 1: but we of course have a lot of uh, we

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Speaker 1: have a lot of discussion and conversation and and you know,

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Speaker 1: a certain degree of guilt about how American colonists treated

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Speaker 1: the indigenous people when they came here. Do y'all talk

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Speaker 1: about that in England? Because that was you you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's something. I mean, obviously we

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Speaker 1: are the descendants of those direct people, but England has

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Speaker 1: the descendants of all the people who were ordering it

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Speaker 1: mostly to happen. So were you all talking about that?

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Speaker 1: And who profited off of all that land being and everything.

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Speaker 1: I'll go ahead and start an international incident here. Maybe

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Speaker 1: England owes some reparations to the native tribes of America.

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Speaker 1: Anybody ever suggests that, because honestly, in England owes some reparations,

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, you want to get on that list,

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Speaker 1: you'll be in at the bottom of a very long list.

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Speaker 1: Maybe that's why England like backed off the Empire thing,

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Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, now, we're a real small country. Sorry,

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Speaker 1: we can't pay anybody back everything we took. But look

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Speaker 1: at these beautiful jewels the queen is wearing. Oh, by

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Speaker 1: the way, we still have all your stuff in our museum.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to give it away anyway. I'm just

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Speaker 1: saying it's I mean, it's a very good point. I

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Speaker 1: I kind of thought that too, because you know, you're

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Speaker 1: you're studying colonial America. It's Native Americans and it's English.

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Speaker 1: There's no Americans as we know them. Yeah, as we

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Speaker 1: are yet Americans pretty soon, but like actual United States

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Speaker 1: of America citizens treated a whole other class of people horribly,

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Speaker 1: like monsters and the natives, and the natives can't discount

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Speaker 1: that pretty much. Everyone do continue to have our anyway. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but we I guess you could say that we started

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Speaker 1: as we meant to go on was pretty horrible. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then we went on with it. So yeah, hey,

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Speaker 1: there's some great things. There's Yeah, we got this is

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Speaker 1: a comedy show, you're right, so moving I think of

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Speaker 1: something funny and we'll move on. So yeah, okay, Because

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Speaker 1: Delaware showed up at this clear change and how they

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Speaker 1: were going to be behaving toward the natives. The tribes

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Speaker 1: were all being way more cautious around the English, especially Pocahonas.

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Speaker 1: Rumors persisted that the English were hoping to kidnap her

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Speaker 1: and keep her hostage because they knew how much pow

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Speaker 1: Hotton cared about her, so they were like, this might

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Speaker 1: be our linchpin of our victory. Basically, she would be

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Speaker 1: a very valuable hostage. So when Poconas came of age

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Speaker 1: in sixteen ten, her ceremony was much quieter than it

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Speaker 1: normally would have been. If there had not been in

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Speaker 1: English around, she would have had a bigger kincanera, you fox.

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Speaker 1: This ceremony, called a huskan off for boys and a

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Speaker 1: huskana squaw for girls, happened once kids hit puberty, so

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Speaker 1: anywhere from twelve to fourteen, and it was a signal

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Speaker 1: that they were grown now and ready for courtship and marriage.

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Speaker 1: And since pocahonas mother was dead, her older sister Matta

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Speaker 1: Chana oversaw the ceremony. The boys rituals seemed to be

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Speaker 1: much more intense and elaborate than the women's. They had

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Speaker 1: to like run a gauntlet, They had to lay like

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Speaker 1: they were dead while everyone else feasted around them, and right,

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Speaker 1: because it's after they run the gauntlet, so they're already hungry,

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Speaker 1: and then they're like probably smelling all this good food,

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Speaker 1: and everybody's laughing and chilling, and they're like laying like corpses.

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Speaker 1: The people were patient, they were used to it. And

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Speaker 1: then also the boys would go live in the woods

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Speaker 1: for nine months with some elders, and so then when

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Speaker 1: they came back, there was this big gap between the

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Speaker 1: boy that left and the man who came home. So

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Speaker 1: now he's seen as a warrior, you know, he's a

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Speaker 1: man now. And also their allegiance had changed from family

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Speaker 1: to the whole tribe um. So it was a really

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Speaker 1: non symbolic way, I guess, of of just showing again

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Speaker 1: that that gap of like this a boy left and

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Speaker 1: here comes a man, you know, and he had nine

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Speaker 1: months to prove that he could live in the it's

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Speaker 1: to deal with some crazy shit. For women, I can

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Speaker 1: find very little of the process. I'm just I'm assuming,

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Speaker 1: you know, they mostly talked about like what Pocahonat wore

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Speaker 1: and stuff like that, so I'm kind of assuming that

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Speaker 1: it was mostly about looking cute, and then they would

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Speaker 1: do some ritual dancing and feasting and praying that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. Um less of a gauntlet, less of running

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Speaker 1: off for a nine month not not as much of

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Speaker 1: that going on. Yeah, their life is going to be

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Speaker 1: a gauntlet there. They're curing the meat and weaving the

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Speaker 1: rugs and building the fires and building the houses. Like

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Speaker 1: you're nine months of childbirth comes later, They're nine months

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Speaker 1: comes first. But they did also have a ritual name change,

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Speaker 1: So they had their childhood name and then they had

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Speaker 1: their name as a woman, and they got to choose

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Speaker 1: that name. And this is when pocahont chose the name

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Speaker 1: Poconti is for herself, after her mother, which was what

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Speaker 1: her father had already called her, you know, because he

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Speaker 1: loved her mother so much, so she already had some

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Speaker 1: attachment at that name. For sure. I'm sure they were

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Speaker 1: not surprised when she was like, let's just go ahead

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Speaker 1: make an official. Yeah. Now, after this ceremony, the oral

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Speaker 1: history this book states quote, there was a big pow

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Speaker 1: wow held in celebration and thanks Giving. Hey, Thanksgiving, everybody.

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Speaker 1: I knew there's a tie in somewhere. So one of

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Speaker 1: the big moments of this pow wow is the courtship

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Speaker 1: dance that allowed single male warriors to search for a mate,

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Speaker 1: and our girl, Pocahonas was approached by a warrior named Cocoum.

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Speaker 1: The other side of History says that quote. The fact

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Speaker 1: he was not a chief and thus not high in status,

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Speaker 1: suggests that Pocahontas may have married for love. But pow Hatton,

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Speaker 1: her dad, the head Hancho here, was also into this pairing.

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Speaker 1: He was like, yes, good choice. I like this. I'm standing.

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Speaker 1: I'm shipping Pocahonas and coco Um here. We stand because

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Speaker 1: first of all, Cocoum was the brother of one of

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Speaker 1: Potton's close ist friends, chief Japazaw. So you can imagine

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Speaker 1: you can imagine, uh how hot and and Japazaw like

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Speaker 1: trying to get the trying to match make right. I believe,

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, would it be so cute if my

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Speaker 1: daughter and your brother, Oh my god, they're perfect. Okay,

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Speaker 1: somebody go tell someone to make sure they sit together

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Speaker 1: during dinner. Okay, try and make sure they get the

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Speaker 1: same spaghetti noodle. And then when they do, they're both

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Speaker 1: like sitting in the corner together, like watching like it happened.

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Speaker 1: He's looking at her, she's looking at it. Adorable, but

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Speaker 1: even better than this fact that he was related to

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Speaker 1: this friend of his, is that it's possible Cocoum was

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Speaker 1: one of pou Hotton's bodyguard, which consisted of fifty of

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Speaker 1: the best warriors that all the tribes had to offer.

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Speaker 1: I remember, they're getting increasingly worried that the colonials would

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Speaker 1: try to take Pocahona's hostage. So pow Hotton was certainly

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Speaker 1: glad that she was going to marry someone who could

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Speaker 1: protect her. One of the best warriors there is, right.

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Speaker 1: He was like, what if you hadn't picked him, I

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Speaker 1: probably would have picked this selection of warriors for you.

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Speaker 1: But they also took the precaution of sending the newlyweds

385
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Speaker 1: to live with Kocoum's family and the PoTA Womack tribe

386
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Speaker 1: village Passapatanzi, which is also where Chief Japazol lived, and

387
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Speaker 1: it was in a remote area. It's kind of like

388
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Speaker 1: northern Virginia. There was no English hanging around there yet,

389
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Speaker 1: and pow Hotton figured that with both coco Um and

390
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Speaker 1: japaz all looking out for her, Pocahonas would be safe

391
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Speaker 1: and then he could get on with the pow Hotton

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Speaker 1: part of the Anglo pow hotten war, right, and for

393
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Speaker 1: a while it seems everything was, you know, turning out fine. Well,

394
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Speaker 1: let's just stop there and happy ending. They lived happily

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Speaker 1: ever after the end. Can we just cut it off there, guess,

396
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: but it would be a pretty shitty EPI. Um. Yeah.

397
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Speaker 1: While she was living with the PoTA Womack, the other

398
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Speaker 1: side of history says she gave birth to a son.

399
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Speaker 1: Other places say they had a daughter, so I'm not

400
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Speaker 1: exactly sure, but anyway, they had a kid and they

401
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 1: were really happy about it, all right, and that's what Matt,

402
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 1: You're right, Let's include that, and then let's cut off

403
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Speaker 1: the end of the story happily ever after with either

404
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 1: a son or a daughter who knows? Right. Uh, well,

405
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Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna take a commercial break, and then

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Speaker 1: I guess we'll have to come back with the rest

407
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Speaker 1: of the story. Stay tuned because it's thrilling. Welcome back

408
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Speaker 1: to the show. So when we left off, of course,

409
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Speaker 1: Pocahonas had married Cocum and went to go live in

410
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Speaker 1: his village where Chief Chapazaw was going to look out

411
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Speaker 1: for them, and everything's good. Meanwhile, the war is going

412
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Speaker 1: strong the land along the rivers is extremely fertile, having

413
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Speaker 1: been well cared for by the Powhattan nation. Hello, take

414
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 1: a lesson English. And the English were doing everything they

415
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: could to steal that good agricultural land away. They had

416
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 1: already taken control of the entire James River, and they

417
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Speaker 1: were always looking for a way to snatch up Pocahontas

418
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Speaker 1: because they figured holding her hostage would be a great

419
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 1: way to end the hostilities but still get whatever they wanted,

420
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Speaker 1: so valuable bargaining chip. They knew how much pow Hotton

421
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: cared for his daughter, So one day in six Captain

422
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 1: Samuel Argall learned where Pocahontas and her family were hiding out,

423
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: and he decided to quote possess myself of her by

424
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 1: any stratagem strut. According to this book The Other Side

425
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: of History. He went to Chief Japazaw and threatened to

426
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,440
Speaker 1: attack the entire village if he didn't hand over his

427
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: sister in Pocahona's Japisa knew that they couldn't hold off

428
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: an English attack all by themselves, and they wouldn't have

429
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: time for backup to arrive from pow Hotton, so he

430
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 1: made our Gall promise not to harm Pokehontas and then

431
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,679
Speaker 1: reluctantly made his wife go get her and bring her

432
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: aboard our Gall's ship. As soon as she was a board,

433
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: our Gall handed them a copper kettle, implicating them in

434
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: the betrayal, basically saying, look, we gave you something for it,

435
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 1: so now you've officially traded her for this kettle. And

436
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 1: she saw it so that she could tell how Hotton Oh,

437
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: they must have traded me for a cop kettle. And

438
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: before sailing away he had coco Um killed. Unfortunately, their

439
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: son was with a relative and was spared, but pretty dark.

440
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 1: And that that is the oral history from Pocahona's people

441
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: passed down. That's the way the story goes. But the

442
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: English story is different. They say the PoTA Womack tribe

443
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: was not always loyal to pow hotton Um. For example,

444
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: they were still trading with the English even though it

445
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: was technically forbidden during this war. And that's how Captain

446
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 1: Argyll had a contact among their Poto Womack tribe to

447
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 1: know that Pokehon that Pokeontas was there. So Captain Argyll

448
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: actually went to Japazaw and offered to ally with the

449
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 1: Poto Womac against pow Hotton if they would hand over

450
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: pokehonas So the English are like they were ready to

451
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: turn against their all, and that's how come it worked out, okay,

452
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: you know. And then Japazaw tricked pokehon Is aboard. Together

453
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 1: they held her for ransom and demanded the release of

454
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: English prisoners and the return of weapons from pow Hotton.

455
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,440
Speaker 1: And according to the Matta Pony, he immediately paid the ransom,

456
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: but then the English demanded a second payment. According to

457
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: the English, pow Hotton only paid part of the ransom

458
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: and they had to hold out for the full amount.

459
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: So there's a breakdown here. So the the Matta ponies say,

460
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: we gave you the thousand bucks you asked for, and

461
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: then the English said, yes, but you forgult about the

462
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: second payments, you know. But the English say, we asked

463
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: you for two thousand in the first place, and you

464
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: only gave us half. So again it's and this is

465
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: a hard one because there's you would have to be

466
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: there to know, right, you you what, I'm inclined to

467
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 1: side with who I sympathize with, right, I'm inclined to

468
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: be like, well, the oral history of the Mattapony. I

469
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: want to take their side because they were the ones

470
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: being subjected here. Um. But but you know, I don't know.

471
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: I cannot say that neither of us can um. And

472
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: again you're looking at what was written down by people

473
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: who very much wanted to make themselves look good and

474
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: what was kind of a game of telephone for a

475
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: few generations before it was written down. So neither is

476
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,479
Speaker 1: necessarily a huge, a reliable account or the whole story. Yeah, um,

477
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: but but which at which point in history? Usually we

478
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: just kind of have to decide for ourselves what we

479
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 1: believe or that we don't really believe anything. I think

480
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 1: is where I land with it, And like, I know

481
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: that I'm not getting the full story, and I know

482
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: the story doesn't exist. There's some things we cannot know,

483
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: and that's kind of hard to reconcile with. Sometimes too,

484
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: it's true, and then other times you just have the

485
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: cultural differences that just misunderstanding. How Harton was like, well,

486
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: if I make a deal with John Smith, then I've

487
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: made a deal with all of y'all, right, because that's

488
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: how it would work for us. If you made a

489
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: deal with my one of my were a wances he

490
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to make it without my permission, and therefore,

491
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: if I got somebody took over for me, they would

492
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: probably honor that agreement. Whereas the English didn't see it

493
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: that way at all. They were like, that's just some guy,

494
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: that's he don't he don't represent all of us or

495
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: the gift giving or any of that stuff. It might

496
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: have just been enough that the cultural difference was not

497
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: respected by enough by either side maybe to fully know

498
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: what conversation they were actually having. Does that make sense?

499
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: And in either case, what what we do know is

500
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: true in between these two stories is there was a

501
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: woman being traded around who didn't really fall to understand

502
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: what was going on, and she was being used by

503
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 1: many people in this as a token in this in

504
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: this war that was going on. And then also just

505
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: to talk about coco Um. Yeah, the English accounts don't

506
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: really have much written about him, and they say no

507
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 1: one knows what happened to him, and that he just

508
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: wasn't He's just not part of their story at all. Interesting,

509
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: So there's no record of him being killed on purpose

510
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: by Samuel Argyll, although I have to wonder if Samuel

511
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: Argo would have known Cocum, you know, I would have

512
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: just been like, yeah, we there's some warriors and we

513
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: killed him. I don't know who he's married to. I

514
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 1: don't care, I don't know, but but anyway, so it's

515
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: he might have been killed or not. We didn't know

516
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: what happened to coco Um for you and his story,

517
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: it's not it's it's a grab bag of truths, and

518
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: it's good to remember as contemporary things are happening around us,

519
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: how much things are being framed and sold in a package.

520
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: And it might look like, well, I'm here now, so

521
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: I clearly know the whole story, and you don't. You

522
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: never know it, not really anyway now, of course, whatever

523
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: the truth here is this this back and forth issue,

524
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: this issue of them taking Pocahontas, whoever's idea it was,

525
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: whoever was okay with it. This created a tense standoff

526
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 1: that lasted for a whole year. Pocahontas was held in

527
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: Jamestown for a few months and then taken to a

528
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,440
Speaker 1: Virginian city called Henricus, which had been established in sixteen

529
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: eleven away from the swampy Jamestown peninsula. This is also

530
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: where John Rolf remember him u. He had established the

531
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: Verena farms, plantation, and was exp remending with his tobacco strain,

532
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: which was called Orinocco. Thank you. I don't know how

533
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: many of our listeners are and your fans. I've come

534
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: from my castle in Ireland. But Orinoco Flow is a

535
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: very important song in the nineties. So John Rolf's experiments

536
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: uh in tobacco farming and mixing these strains and everything

537
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: they had turned Virginia into a profitable colony. Finally, in

538
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 1: sixteen twelve, he wanted to let the Orinoco flow all

539
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 1: through Virginia, but of course there were some obstacles. King

540
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: James hated tobacco, so he discouraged it. He was I

541
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: will catch you smoking in my colonies, young mad as

542
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: long as you're living under my rule, no tobacco. He

543
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: called it a vile weed too, so it is kind

544
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: of well, it's like marijuana in its own time. Also,

545
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 1: the Virginia Company thought colonists would plant tobacco instead of corn,

546
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 1: which they desperately needed to become a self sufficient colony,

547
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: so they discouraged tobacco planting too. And then finally there

548
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: just wasn't enough labor to handle cultivating a cash crop

549
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: like tobacco as well as cultivating food to feed the colony. Um.

550
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: So if you're you might be thinking around this point

551
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: as I was, and I was reading this, boy, how

552
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: did the Americans deal with the fact that they didn't

553
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: have enough labor to farm tobacco and food at the

554
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 1: same time. Well, the Library of Congress website rites quote.

555
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 1: The ultimate answer to the labor problem was ominously foreshadowed

556
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: in a little noticed event that Rolfe described in sixteen nineteen,

557
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: the arrival of a dutch Man of war carrying a

558
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: group of captive Africans. For by the end of the century,

559
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: African slave labor would become the colony's economic and social foundation.

560
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: So really wild to see these early steps. Honestly, in

561
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: a large part John rolf himself deciding no, I'm going

562
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 1: to make tobacco work, and that being just you know,

563
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: an early domino in what eventually led to, you know,

564
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: the enslavement of an entire race of people in this

565
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 1: country for generation generation, generation that we're still dealing with

566
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 1: the repercussions of today. Wow. John Rolfe, not to put

567
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: all that on your shoulders, but not all of it.

568
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 1: But he's just trying to make some money. He's just

569
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: like nobody else is doing tobacco. I think it's a

570
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: great idea, guys, know right, turns out it's addictive. Anyone

571
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,240
Speaker 1: knew that. But yeah, But at this point in our story,

572
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 1: it's six thirteen, so this has not happened yet. Everything

573
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: is pure and great. Pocahonas is around fifteen or sixteen

574
00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 1: at this point, and she's taken to Henricast for safekeeping

575
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 1: and put in the care of Reverend Alexander Whittaker to

576
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 1: learn more of the English language, to learn their religion

577
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: and their way of life. Because the Virginia Company also

578
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 1: had a goal to convert Native Americans to Christianity. It

579
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: was like a big major colonization goal of theirs, so

580
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: they probably figured Pocahontas was a great place to start

581
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: with all that, and according to the colonist Ralph Hammer,

582
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 1: Pocahonas received quote extraordinary courteous usage among her captors. But

583
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 1: according to the other side of history, Pocahonas fell into

584
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 1: a deep depression while she was being held hostage. The

585
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 1: English constantly told her that because her father wouldn't pay

586
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: the ransom, he must not love her enough, and he

587
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: must not love her anymore, and if he did, he

588
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 1: would pay it and she would could leave. She could

589
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: leave right now if he would just pay it. But

590
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 1: I guess he just doesn't love you like they're just

591
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: every day like drilling her with this horrible list of

592
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: So she had a nerve is breakdown, unsurprising, and the

593
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 1: English asked if her sister would be allowed to visit,

594
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: so they made an arrangement, and when Matachana showed up

595
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 1: with her husband, Pocahonas told her that she had been

596
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 1: raped and thought that she was pregnant. And the Mattapony

597
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: oral history says the reason they moved her to Henry

598
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 1: Kiss in the first place from Jamestown was to hide

599
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: this pregnancy, and it also says that she gave birth

600
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: to a son called Thomas before she converted to Christianity,

601
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: before she ever married John Role for any of that,

602
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 1: but it's it's sticky because, as we mentioned in the

603
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 1: first episode, this history is disputed somewhat. Some historians, like

604
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 1: Helen Rountree, who writes for the Encyclopedia Virginia, believe that

605
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: no oral history exists at all, but also that treating

606
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: pocahon Is badly would have gone against English interests. They

607
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 1: had a truce going during negotiations, and they were still

608
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 1: outnumbered by the Native people and they feared retaliation. So

609
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 1: this is really the biggest divergence in the two stories

610
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 1: so far, and it definitely deserves, you know, some conversation, Yeah,

611
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 1: because on one hand, you know, it's not like this

612
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,800
Speaker 1: is an unusual scenario for a girl from one of

613
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 1: the native tribes, Yeah, to be raped and stuff. It's

614
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 1: not hard to believe that they would have treated a

615
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: girl like this because they did that. In fact, I

616
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 1: just saw yesterday that Deb Hayland, the Interior Secretary, has

617
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: added squaw to the list of slurs, because that is

618
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: a word that the English used specifically to describe young

619
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: Native children that they want to have sex with. Like

620
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: I don't know if that meant young like prepubescent, or

621
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 1: if it meant young like they're eleven, they're twelve to

622
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: fourteen and have undergone their puberty dance or not. Either way,

623
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 1: either way, it's really gross. Yeah, I just want to

624
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: throw that in there because youth is just such a

625
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: different word to us today than it was to the commonist.

626
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: I just like to really point that out now. It's interesting,

627
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: but it's very interesting, So yeah, don't say that. But

628
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,360
Speaker 1: then again, like as we said in part one, it

629
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 1: kind of doesn't feel fair to reject the tribal oral

630
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: history out of hand just because it doesn't align with

631
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: the written records at the time. I mean, this is

632
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,280
Speaker 1: what we've been saying, right, because of course the written

633
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: records of the time were written by the English, who

634
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: were not trying to write down like yeah, and then

635
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,399
Speaker 1: I raped a prisoner. Uh, you know, obviously they're gonna

636
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: make it as clean and uh and positive to themselves

637
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: as they can. I mean, plus, they're out here being

638
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 1: like we're Christian. Were these men of God trying to

639
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: spread this wonderful word of God? And why would they

640
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: write down? And we did that by raping this young

641
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: girl doing all this crazy ship. But I do want

642
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: to point out that this story could also sort of

643
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: be propaganda by the tribe itself in a way, the

644
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 1: kind of the way the English account is somewhat propaganda

645
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: for them. Yeah, in terms of just like trying to

646
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 1: earn sympathies. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't mean it

647
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: in a bad way, like, but but it's kind of like, listen,

648
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,520
Speaker 1: know this this is something that happened to a lot

649
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: of Native women. They were raped and impregnated and killed

650
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 1: by englishmen. But it seems like white people don't really

651
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 1: care about any Native besides poccons. So okay, why don't

652
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: we put that experience on that character that you care

653
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 1: about and it will make you care about the actual

654
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: Native people that have happened to She's like, you're your

655
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: avatar for Native people you give a funk about. So

656
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: if that's what it takes, then here, now do you care?

657
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 1: You pissed? What are you gonna do? You know? I

658
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: mean that could be true too, So Avatar challenging choice

659
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:39,839
Speaker 1: of words because of course the movie Avatar was such

660
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: a poor representation of Western colonization of Native people's But no, yeah, yeah,

661
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 1: it's it's it's interesting to kind of pick it apart

662
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,239
Speaker 1: like that. Again, just going back to the idea that

663
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: you've got an oral history that's been told over and

664
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: over again and down through generations that will inevitably have changed,

665
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,760
Speaker 1: because that's what happens with I mean, that's been happening

666
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: in all storytelling throughout history, written or not. Um and

667
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: but then but then you've got the written history is

668
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 1: some people who are trying to make themselves look good,

669
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 1: So where's the truth? Um? I can't even say it

670
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 1: somewhere in between because it might be on either end. Um,

671
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: all we know is the situation as it stands today

672
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 1: and the documented history that we do have. Um and uh,

673
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:35,319
Speaker 1: I think that for most saying conscientious people can can

674
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: go ahead and align your sympathies where they ought to be. Yeah,

675
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: but I mean that that might be what what I

676
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 1: was saying might be kind of why some historians don't

677
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: want to comment, yeah, because they're like, first of all,

678
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:47,800
Speaker 1: it's an oral tradition, So how am I supposed to

679
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 1: come in and tell you you haven't been telling this

680
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 1: story for generations, Like that's not for me to do.

681
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: But also like, again, it's the facts as they occurred

682
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: to Pocahonist might not be true, but they certainly are

683
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 1: true facts. Does that make sense? And so it's sort

684
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: of like I don't want to be like that's a

685
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 1: whole bunch of hogwash because it has a lot of

686
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 1: truth in it, even if it didn't happen to that character.

687
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 1: She's the representative character of the experience as a whole.

688
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: So it might be like, yeah, Okay, I mean, I

689
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: wouldn't say Pocahonas, I'd say somebody else, but nobody cares

690
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: about anybody else, So I you know, I'm just wondering

691
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: if that's that's my own speculation stage. I mean, we

692
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: do that today in stories. I mean, you know, it

693
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 1: will do a you know, do a movie about somebody

694
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: riding the Oregon Trail and like that character becomes iconic

695
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: and everything that happened to them is what happened to

696
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: people on the Oregon Trail. But we're centralizing it on

697
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 1: one character. That's very common in storytelling for sure. Yeah.

698
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: So Pocahonas did live among the English for about a

699
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,879
Speaker 1: year while she was waiting to be released. In March

700
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: of sixteen fourteen, standoff culminated in this violent clash along

701
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 1: the Pamunkey River, and Pocahonas was allowed to go ashore

702
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: to speak with some of her relatives, and she told them,

703
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: according to the English record that quote, if her father

704
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: had loved her, he would not value her less than

705
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: old swords, guns or axes, wherefore she would still dwell

706
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 1: with the english Men who loved her. I believe the

707
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: Matta Pony history has a similar quote from her, but

708
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 1: of course, in their history she's been told that he

709
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 1: don't love her, whereas in the English history he you know,

710
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:26,759
Speaker 1: they feel like he doesn't. He really doesn't. I mean

711
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 1: they're framing it as if he really doesn't, and that

712
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: she came to that conclusion herself right, And as Tony

713
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 1: Horowitz relates in a Voyage Long and Strange, one Englishman

714
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 1: certainly did love her, Enya enthusiast John Rolfe, who wrote

715
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: to the colonies governor asking for permission to marry her.

716
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 1: He wrote that his feelings for her quote have a

717
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: long time been so entangled and enthralled, and so intricate

718
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,760
Speaker 1: a labyrinth that I was even a wearied to unwind myself.

719
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: They're out. Apparently this confession was a little risky because

720
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: the English didn't look kindly on marriage with Heathens, and

721
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,879
Speaker 1: rolf wrote that he knew quote the heavy displeasure which

722
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 1: Almighty God conceived against the sons of Levi and Israel

723
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 1: for marrying strange wives God, strange wives like, And he

724
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: knew the other settlers might quote tax or taunt me.

725
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 1: But even so Ralph was too in love to care.

726
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: He could barely endure the many passions and sufferings which

727
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: I have daily, hourly, yea, and in my sleep endured.

728
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: But it wasn't about sex. It's about sex, it's not

729
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 1: definitely I don't want to just have sex with her.

730
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 1: He was very quick to assure the governor it was

731
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 1: not just about colonel you know, pleasures or whatever. It

732
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: was definitely because he could save her soul and his

733
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,800
Speaker 1: own through their union. Um, she wanted to become Christian,

734
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 1: he told the Governor, and quote gave a great appearance

735
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: of love to me. And Tony concludes this by saying,

736
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: we have only Rolf's words as evidence of her affection,

737
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: so that's very important to keep in mind. Pocahon is

738
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: never wrote down like Mrs john Roll for anything in

739
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 1: her diary. Like she we don't know how she felt

740
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: about him, hearts. Mrs Poconta, the other side of history,

741
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: says that likely she just wanted to do the best

742
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: she could for her people. She thought this would be

743
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 1: a great way to handle it. She had a half

744
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 1: white child, so she was probably like fine, whatever. They

745
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,320
Speaker 1: also think that Rolf wanted to marry her, not necessarily

746
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: because he was in love with her, but he wanted

747
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: Potton's tobacco guys to like give him some guidance on

748
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: his crops or whatever. So kind of of a cold

749
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: way of looking at their union. I guess I prefer

750
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 1: to believe his letter to the governor that he was

751
00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 1: burning with passion and hopefully she felt the same. That

752
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: would be a nicer story, certainly. I'm it's given me

753
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: just tiny little flashes of Karl Tandler, who wrote in

754
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: his book about you know, the love he shared with

755
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: Elena Dayos and you know we looked back in an

756
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: hour like she had no interest in him at all,

757
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 1: but he was the only one writing it down. So again,

758
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: don't know if that's true for these two are not

759
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: um again, just have to just have to kind of

760
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 1: choose how you want to look at it, I guess

761
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: in a way kind of because nobody can tell you

762
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 1: what's true. Not uncommon though, even if we're going to

763
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,760
Speaker 1: the oral history tradition for women even in the tribes,

764
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: to marry for sensible reasons, for for unification reasons, So

765
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 1: that entirely possible, right. And they pointed out to of course,

766
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 1: that being taken hostage was also very normal amongst the tribes.

767
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 1: It was very normal to Okay, I got a hostage.

768
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 1: You're going to be treated well for as long as

769
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 1: I need to keep you. So it wasn't anything like

770
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 1: her being held hostage by the English would have been fine,

771
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: except that she fell into this depression and that's why

772
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: they think she was mistreated. But look, everyone gave permission

773
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: for this wedding, including pow Hotton. So maybe this was

774
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 1: the answer, right, Maybe that's all worked out. Marriages, Like

775
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: we said, they bring together warring nations all the time.

776
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,160
Speaker 1: Both the pow Hotton nation and the English settlers were

777
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 1: trying to find a way to end these hostilities without

778
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: feeling like they lost. So in April of six fourteen,

779
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: Pocahontas was baptized and she took the name Rebecca. Oh

780
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 1: my God, Becky, I love your hair. Tony Horwitz writes

781
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 1: that she was named Rebecca quote after Isaac's biblical bride,

782
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,919
Speaker 1: whom God told two nations are in thy womb, one

783
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 1: mightier than the other. It's a bit of a loaded name,

784
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: all right. I'm like, did she pick it or did

785
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: they pick it? Because if they picked it, that's a

786
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: real message. We don't have any evidence to suggest that

787
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: she knows the name Rebecca. I mean, I guess she's

788
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: learned the Bible. They would have been probably teaching her

789
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 1: English by reading her the Bible, I imagine, And I

790
00:47:08,040 --> 00:47:10,800
Speaker 1: mean they wanted to convert her, so she didn't. She

791
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: was like scrolling through Instagram like Rebecca, Jessica now mackenzie

792
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:21,879
Speaker 1: maybe yeah, she had that chalkboards like Klin McCarty, Josh Lynn.

793
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:26,760
Speaker 1: They were all crossed down. She's like Rebecca. Rebecca married

794
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 1: John Rolfe with her uncle and two brothers in attendance.

795
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:32,919
Speaker 1: Her father couldn't come, obviously, because it was Paal Hotton.

796
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: He would have been killed or captured likely, but he

797
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: did send a necklace of huge pearls as a gift,

798
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: and he also gifted them hundreds of acres of land.

799
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 1: So he's very supportive of this union. And this was

800
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,720
Speaker 1: the beginning of what became known as the Piece of Pocahontas.

801
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 1: Ralph Hamer wrote quote, ever since we have had friendly

802
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 1: commerce and trade, not only with Paal Hotton himself, but

803
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: also with his subjects round about us. So as now

804
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: I see no reason why the colony should not thrive apace,

805
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,919
Speaker 1: and it did partly because of Ralph's or no co flow.

806
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: Tony Horwitz writes, quote, within a few years, settlers were

807
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: growing tobacco to the exclusion of other crops and exporting

808
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 1: it by the ton at tremendous profit. Tobacco was the

809
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:24,480
Speaker 1: gold that Europeans had so long sought in North America

810
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: and never found. Well, that sounds once again like everything's

811
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 1: going great for everyone, and I feel like we should

812
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 1: just stop the story right there and not here anymore. Right,

813
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 1: we got everybody's making everybody's married and happy. It's like

814
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: the end of a Shakespeare play. And now all these settlers,

815
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 1: they're finally making all this cash just profit profit profit, right, Yeah, yeah,

816
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 1: they made a lot of profit, probably because they didn't

817
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 1: have to pay the people who were harvesting the tobacco.

818
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:55,879
Speaker 1: I think that really helps your profit margin. Just something

819
00:48:55,920 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 1: I learned history. But anyway, speaking of profit, let's go

820
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: to a commercial break, all right, welcome back to part

821
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 1: three of part two story. Yeah, I kind of got

822
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 1: lost in a second part. Does that make it part six?

823
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 1: Did it? By anyway? Welcome back to the show's not

824
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: getting into that. So yeah, so things are going well

825
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: and Henry Kiss and Jamestown and other settlements and it's

826
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 1: generally agreed that in sixteen fifteen, Pocahontas now known as

827
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: Rebecca rolf gave birth to Thomas Rolfe. Like we said,

828
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,399
Speaker 1: the oral history is pretty firm that she gave birth

829
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 1: to Thomas before she married John. But I don't know,

830
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: it seems a little weird to hide a baby for

831
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 1: a year and then jump out being like, here's my

832
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 1: newborn one year old. I mean, this isn't a sitcom.

833
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 1: Came out like a toddler and be like, oh, you

834
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,719
Speaker 1: have fresh out of the delivery room. Yeah, oh yeah,

835
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: she's still recovering and the kids walking, so yeah. I mean,

836
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 1: you know, I don't like to cast doubt on the

837
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 1: roral history or anything like that. That that one just

838
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 1: doesn't quite play for me. I'm not really seeing them

839
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 1: being able to hide a baby for a year and

840
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,320
Speaker 1: then popping out like this is a new baby. I

841
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 1: was like, I guess it's possible that she maybe had

842
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 1: another baby that they named Thomas, and they put the

843
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:29,959
Speaker 1: first Thomas somewhere else and then they were like, here's

844
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 1: this Thomas. But that seems weird too, Like, I don't know,

845
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 1: that one just doesn't play out for me quite right,

846
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 1: it feels discordant um. But again we don't know, so

847
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 1: we do not. But according to the English history, she

848
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: had a newborn child in sixteen fifteen, and then the

849
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:51,399
Speaker 1: Virginia Company decided they wanted John and Rebecca to come

850
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: to England and show off how great the Virginia Company

851
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:57,919
Speaker 1: was doing it establishing settlements and converting natives to Christianity.

852
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 1: So it kind of wanted like a walking billboard for

853
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 1: their efforts in the New World. So she and Rolph

854
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 1: went to England in sixteen sixteen, and they weren't alone

855
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,720
Speaker 1: in this voyage. They were accompanied by their son Thomas,

856
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: and eleven pow Hottons, including Pocahontas. Older sister Matta China

857
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: and her husband came along as well, as well as

858
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: a priest called Tomacomo. Toma Coomo was going to be

859
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 1: pow Hotton's eyes and ears in England's finally his chance

860
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 1: to get a look at this famed country that all

861
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 1: the white people were showing up from talking such a

862
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: big deal. Oh we have all these you know, horrible

863
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 1: smelling streets and rickety carriages, and at whom I controlled bath. Yeah,

864
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: and then apparently you've got like a bunch of people

865
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 1: starving all the time. To an earlier native visitor to

866
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,280
Speaker 1: England had only seen London in the Times and reported

867
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 1: that there were no trees in England, which explained what

868
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: brought the colonists to Santa Comaco. But how Hotton asked

869
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 1: to Macomo to go find out about the English god

870
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 1: and the English King, and also to find out what

871
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 1: really happened to John Smith, because remember he hadn't believed

872
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 1: the story they told him back in six nine that

873
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,879
Speaker 1: Smith had died on his way back to England. Tomacomo

874
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 1: was also supposed to count as many Englishmen as he

875
00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 1: could by cutting notches into a stick, but as Tony writes,

876
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 1: he quote had to quickly abandon this census and was

877
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 1: likewise stunned by England's abundant crops and trees. So he

878
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 1: must have seen more than just the city of London,

879
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: because he's like, there's actually a but ton of people here,

880
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: and there's a whole there's so much land. What are

881
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 1: they doing over here? What got all the kinds of

882
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: trees and rivers and ship? Yeah? No, they went they

883
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 1: went about like they went to Norfolk and then into

884
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,879
Speaker 1: like a couple different so he got to see the countryside,

885
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,839
Speaker 1: and yeah, I was stunned because he was just like, well,

886
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,279
Speaker 1: we thought that's what you were over at our spot for.

887
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,720
Speaker 1: You got plenty of it. You've got plenty and Helen

888
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:01,880
Speaker 1: round Tree, writing for Encyclopedia Virginia, says quote his encounters

889
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: with evangelistic clergyman would turn his sympathies forever against the English.

890
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 1: I mean, wouldn't be hard. Honestly, imagine the first guy

891
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: to come up to me like, please come give confession

892
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: for your sins, my son, excuse me? I bet they

893
00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: were like, because he's also a priest, right, so they

894
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 1: were like, let's have a little priestly beating and talk

895
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:29,879
Speaker 1: about priestly somethings, and the you know, Tomacomo was like, well,

896
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 1: we you know, we smoked this pipe and we have

897
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 1: these visions and we talk and we you know, we're

898
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 1: part of the council with whatever. And the clergyman were like, yeah,

899
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 1: as well. We tell women they're going to hell if

900
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: they don't have sons. That's what we do. So when

901
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 1: Tommacomo got back to Virginia, he started advising open Chankina.

902
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 1: How Hotton's brother who would eventually plan the attack that

903
00:53:57,040 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 1: started the second Anglo how Hotan war So and saying

904
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:02,440
Speaker 1: that Temacomo got back, and he's like, listen, open chink

905
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 1: and eyelas. You don't know, I love these guys over here,

906
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 1: and open chink. And I was like, you know what,

907
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 1: I never liked these When it's my turn, let's get

908
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 1: some action going. And Pocahonas was presented as a princess

909
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 1: while she was in England's This is sort of like

910
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 1: one of the you know the first time we're starting

911
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:25,399
Speaker 1: to hear this royalty kind of moniker I guess being

912
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:28,440
Speaker 1: bestowed on her, but she actually was not one. According

913
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:33,359
Speaker 1: to pow Hotton tradition, their lineage is matrilineal so pow

914
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 1: Hotton's brothers or his sister's eldest sons were the ones

915
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 1: in line. It's all about who the mom was. But

916
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 1: it was just kind of a way to like let

917
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:44,640
Speaker 1: everyone know what kind of treatment pocahon Is should get

918
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 1: while she's in town. You know, they were like, she's

919
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 1: not just a brown woman whom you treat badly. She

920
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:53,200
Speaker 1: is a royal brown woman, so treated nicely. Again, I

921
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:56,239
Speaker 1: think they were they were really trying to show a

922
00:54:56,320 --> 00:55:00,080
Speaker 1: good time in England to all of the nat of

923
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 1: tribes that they would then say, oh, well then yes,

924
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 1: we'll take your way of life, that's what we would prefer.

925
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 1: They were really trying to sell the tribes on England

926
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 1: via Pocahontas. Yeah, John Smith even wrote in a letter

927
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 1: to Queen Anne that they should treat her like a

928
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 1: royal guest because it would help maintain their good will

929
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:23,800
Speaker 1: with the pow Hutton's and it seems like she was

930
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 1: pretty well received. Um. She and John Rolfe went to

931
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 1: plays on parties, they were seated with lords and ladies,

932
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 1: and once Pocahontas and Tomacomo were seated with King James,

933
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: and apparently he was just so unprepossessing that they didn't

934
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 1: know it was him until someone told him later, which

935
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,240
Speaker 1: I think must have been an interesting cultural, just weird

936
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,920
Speaker 1: moment for them, because like we said when in part one,

937
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 1: when John Smith met Powe Hotton, they had really rolled

938
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 1: it out like he was like seated on this day

939
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: as he was dressed up for it, like they wanted

940
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 1: to show off. And then she's meeting their king and

941
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 1: he's like, I guess we're in a like a beige

942
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: suit or something. He's just chilling in the corner, and

943
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:05,920
Speaker 1: they were just like that didn't look like a king

944
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 1: to me, you know. Picturing also like how I imagine

945
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 1: they probably dressed her over there in Englishes, right, So

946
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,440
Speaker 1: I'm just juxtaposing in my mind this twelve year old

947
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 1: girl back in tribal America doing cartwheels in the village. Uh,

948
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:26,160
Speaker 1: you know, now like getting her corset tied up, you know,

949
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 1: being put into this British bundage and told like, see,

950
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 1: isn't this life better? Right with like a rough and

951
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 1: like her hair all piled up and all this weird stuff. Yeah.

952
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 1: I feel like if it were me, I'd be like

953
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 1: not really going to go back to like having a

954
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,600
Speaker 1: good time, you know, right, and we were doing fine.

955
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 1: It does seem that they were pretty interested in some

956
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 1: of it. Like there was at one point John Smith

957
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 1: like sent some builders to Powhattan to build him an

958
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:54,920
Speaker 1: English style house. There was like, you know, there were

959
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 1: some things that they were like, I'm interested in that

960
00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 1: I'd like to know. But it's almost more of an

961
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 1: indictment to me of the of the English, because the

962
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:05,400
Speaker 1: natives were like, there's things about your culture that I like,

963
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:08,640
Speaker 1: and i'd be interested in, whereas the English were like,

964
00:57:08,719 --> 00:57:11,279
Speaker 1: and your culture is nonsense and savage and they're all

965
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 1: going to hell and I have to save you. Right,

966
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 1: totally weird, completely different way of looking at the world

967
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: around you. Yeah, because of course, like you know, we

968
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 1: don't want to say that the tribes weren't happy to

969
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 1: receive guns for hunting or comforts. You know that that

970
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: that the English were so obsessed with. You know that.

971
00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 1: I'm sure you show up and you're like, hey, try this,

972
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: try this comforter I've made. You're like, oh, damn, this

973
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 1: is a lot better than what I've been making here.

974
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:40,200
Speaker 1: But then you get into like, well how did you

975
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 1: make it? Well? Yeah, it takes a lot of you know,

976
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 1: if you ever heard of capitalism, um, because it's kind

977
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 1: of like that, it's great, you're gonna love it. But yeah.

978
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 1: Their homes were also really mobile, because they were telling

979
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 1: show with mats on the floor that they wove so

980
00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 1: they could pick up and go where. Moved the whole

981
00:57:59,320 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 1: capital city away from Jamestown. Yeah, I know, a big deal.

982
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 1: And so maybe the English style house, I mean, that

983
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 1: could have been even him trying to be like I'm

984
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 1: also permanent. You know, it might have been just like

985
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 1: if I build a house, like you build a house,

986
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 1: maybe you'll see this as my property. Yeah, who knows,

987
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 1: but yeah. Pocahont, while she was in England, also spent

988
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:23,040
Speaker 1: some time with Rolf's family, so she got to meet

989
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 1: her in laws. That's nice, I guess, depending on how

990
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 1: they were. She was introduced to society under their sponsorship,

991
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 1: so she probably went to lots of parties and events.

992
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 1: And she also sat for an English portrait, as you say,

993
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:40,960
Speaker 1: fully dressed in very very English garbs. She's looks like

994
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:46,040
Speaker 1: Queen Elizabeth as Whollo, except that she's not obviously now.

995
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 1: It wasn't long after they arrived that Pocahont learned that

996
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 1: John Smith was still alive. She's like that old that

997
00:58:53,280 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 1: old man when I was a kid also and so

998
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 1: used to teach me English. But it would be months

999
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 1: before he called to see her. In his account, he

1000
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:04,720
Speaker 1: said he was just busy. But it seems like everyone

1001
00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:07,160
Speaker 1: thinks that this was hell a rude of him not

1002
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:10,920
Speaker 1: to come see her. Right, Historians and contemporaries like believe

1003
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 1: that like this was a dick move, right, I mean

1004
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:14,560
Speaker 1: they're like, if you have a friend in town. You

1005
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: go call on him, like what do you wait too long?

1006
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 1: And it's incredibly impolite. It's like you don't want to

1007
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 1: talk to him for some reason. I mean, could that

1008
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 1: be according to you? This girl saved your life. You

1009
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 1: know a couple of times, wouldn't you want to go

1010
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 1: stay high? Think so? Or yeah? What he is? He like,

1011
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 1: she's going to call me out that it never happened.

1012
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 1: And eventually they did meet, and it was an awkward meeting.

1013
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 1: John Smith wrote that when she saw him, pocahon Is

1014
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 1: quote without any word, turned about, obscured her face as

1015
00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 1: not seeming well contented. Then she reminded him of all

1016
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 1: the promises he had made to Powhatan. What was yours

1017
00:59:56,840 --> 01:00:00,120
Speaker 1: should be his? She said, you called him fove or

1018
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 1: being in his land a stranger. But instead Smith had

1019
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:06,920
Speaker 1: dipped out and his English friends told pow Hotton that

1020
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 1: he was dead, and none of them ever believed that,

1021
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 1: And in fact, Pocahonas told John Smith that the pow

1022
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 1: Hoptons that came to England with her had made sure

1023
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 1: to ask about him when they got to England, quote

1024
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:24,240
Speaker 1: because your countrymen will lie much. So She's like, we're

1025
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 1: used to you guys lying you know, the idea that

1026
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 1: John Smith was dead. Of course we didn't believe that,

1027
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 1: so go check in on that guy. Yeah. She was like,

1028
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:32,760
Speaker 1: not only that, but we were like, is the first

1029
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 1: thing we're gonna do. Yeah, and we're gonna find out, oh,

1030
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 1: you lie. The prize. First thing we do is going

1031
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 1: to find out that you lie. Right, Because again paw

1032
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 1: Hotton like would rather have been dealing with John Smith

1033
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:46,120
Speaker 1: this whole time. And no, guys, it wasn't so much.

1034
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 1: I think that they were mad that John Smith was there.

1035
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 1: They were mad that the English had told him that

1036
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 1: John Smith was dead, when in fact, I I speculation

1037
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:58,320
Speaker 1: station wonder if pow Hotton might not have told the

1038
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 1: English if he knew John Smith was alive, Well, then

1039
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 1: you get him back here. I want to talk to

1040
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 1: John Smith maybe if we're gonna we're gonna go through this.

1041
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 1: I liked talking to him, and I don't like you.

1042
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:10,560
Speaker 1: That might have been why they told him, like he

1043
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 1: might have been like, I'm sorry, but I made a

1044
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:14,760
Speaker 1: deal with your were of once John Smith and they

1045
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 1: were like, well John Smith ain't our chief, first of all,

1046
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 1: and secondly he's dead. So now you're dealing with me

1047
01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 1: George Percy, who sucks and like, and then Lord de Lawire,

1048
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 1: who sucks even more apparently. Um so, yeah, that's probably true.

1049
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 1: And I think they were still pretty pissed at John

1050
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 1: Smith though, because you know, I guess he hadn't really

1051
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 1: made it very clear how it worked, or had promised

1052
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 1: them ship that he never could delivers very possible too,

1053
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 1: because he was, you know, kind of a brag got braggert,

1054
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:45,480
Speaker 1: so he might have been like, oh, yeah, no problem,

1055
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:47,840
Speaker 1: like this is gonna be great forever now and whatever.

1056
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:52,720
Speaker 1: And then I didn't even try to keep the piece

1057
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 1: after he left maybe or something. So anyway, I don't

1058
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 1: think she was happy with him. Is short of that. Yeah. Absolutely.

1059
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 1: In March sixteen seventeen, they all boarded a ship to

1060
01:02:03,240 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 1: go back to Virginia. They had done their propaganda tour

1061
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 1: for the Virginia Company and it was time to go home.

1062
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 1: But suddenly Pocahonas got really sick, and after only a

1063
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:16,240
Speaker 1: few miles down river, they stopped to take her ashore.

1064
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 1: That's where she passed away, telling her husband all must die.

1065
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:27,240
Speaker 1: She was interred on March one, sixteen seventeen. John Wolfe

1066
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 1: wrote that she was quote much lamented, and she was

1067
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:35,280
Speaker 1: only twenty one years old. Much like a lot of

1068
01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 1: this story. There are several theories about how Pocahonas died

1069
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 1: um In the other side of history. They say that

1070
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 1: pow Hotton was told Pocahonas was poisoned. They say that

1071
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 1: she was in perfect health before they got on the

1072
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 1: boat back to Virginia, Um, and then she suddenly got

1073
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 1: sick after a meal and that's when she died. So

1074
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 1: the timing is real awkward, and they she probably got

1075
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:03,360
Speaker 1: poisoned in voyage long and strange. Tony Horwitz says some

1076
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:06,320
Speaker 1: of her contemporaries wrote that she was bothered by the

1077
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 1: smokey environments of the you know, area of London that

1078
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,360
Speaker 1: they were living in, So maybe she had like tuberculosis

1079
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:18,080
Speaker 1: or some kind of respiratory complaints. But Helen Roundtree in

1080
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 1: the Encyclopedia Virginia says that's not very likely because Pocahonas

1081
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 1: would be very used to smoky native homes. They had

1082
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 1: like a fire in the middle of their tents, so

1083
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 1: they would have been very common to have a smoky

1084
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:31,720
Speaker 1: house and that wouldn't have bothered her at all. Um.

1085
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 1: She also said that John Rolfe had been given a

1086
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 1: huge grant to start a mission church in Virginia, and

1087
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 1: she writes that quote Pocohonis would have been expected to

1088
01:03:41,440 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 1: serve the dual roles of interpreter and house mother, which

1089
01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 1: would have been a strenuous assignment for someone who is

1090
01:03:46,680 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 1: ill or dying. So she doesn't see the tuberculosis argument

1091
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:52,320
Speaker 1: because that, you know, you kind of have that for

1092
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:55,880
Speaker 1: a minute before you get killed by it. Um. However,

1093
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:59,760
Speaker 1: she says that the ships that brought John Rolfe, Tomacomo,

1094
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 1: and the other colonists back to Virginia after Pocahonas died

1095
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:08,280
Speaker 1: also brought an epidemic of hemorrhagic dysentery that they called

1096
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:12,840
Speaker 1: bloody flux with them. So maybe Pocahonas just got the

1097
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:15,480
Speaker 1: bloody flux while she was on board and that's what

1098
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 1: killed her. That sounds like a bloody fluxing bad time

1099
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:24,400
Speaker 1: for real, horrible and honestly, that explanation makes the most

1100
01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:28,440
Speaker 1: sense to me personally, Um, simply because her son Thomas,

1101
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:31,520
Speaker 1: who was you know, a toddler at this point, was

1102
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 1: also very sick at the same time that Pocahonas was,

1103
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:38,720
Speaker 1: and when she was dying She told John Rolfe that

1104
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 1: she was happy to die if it meant that her

1105
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:43,320
Speaker 1: son could could live, and he was like telling her

1106
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:45,560
Speaker 1: that looks like Thomas is going to recover. And so

1107
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:49,440
Speaker 1: she was able to die at peace with that. So

1108
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 1: that lends a lot to me to say, there's something

1109
01:04:52,360 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 1: going on this ship. Why would they poison a toddler? Well,

1110
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 1: and it's unlikely he would have survived and she would,

1111
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 1: you know, and why poison her at all? Well, yeah,

1112
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:04,640
Speaker 1: I don't really understand. I mean, you know, there's assholes everywhere,

1113
01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 1: and it could have just been some rando. It's just

1114
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:08,960
Speaker 1: odd to be like, Okay, we got everything we wanted

1115
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:11,440
Speaker 1: out of this native woman. She's converted. She's out here

1116
01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 1: making us look good. Now she's going to go back

1117
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:16,160
Speaker 1: to Virginia make us look good even more with her

1118
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 1: her people. Let's kill her on the way. Well no,

1119
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:23,960
Speaker 1: but I mean in terms of government conspiracy, I don't

1120
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 1: believe it. But some random pure blood asshole, you know

1121
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:30,360
Speaker 1: who's just like I don't like that John rolf married

1122
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 1: one of these tribal women. Like you know, you're you're

1123
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,240
Speaker 1: posing as an English person, but you're not, Like I

1124
01:05:36,280 --> 01:05:39,760
Speaker 1: could see some racist dick bag. You know, the poison

1125
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 1: story doesn't necessarily flesh out, but you know, and not

1126
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:47,080
Speaker 1: to say that someone wouldn't do it just out of malice.

1127
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:50,400
Speaker 1: I mean, it's always out of malice when you're poisoned someone.

1128
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:52,720
Speaker 1: But you know what I mean, you know what I mean.

1129
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:55,160
Speaker 1: But that's a good point. It's a good point. I

1130
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:57,120
Speaker 1: do have a tendency to be like, there's no logic

1131
01:05:57,200 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 1: in that, forgetting that humans don't always act from logical

1132
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 1: That's true too anyway, because Thomas the Toddler was really

1133
01:06:04,560 --> 01:06:06,400
Speaker 1: sick and John rolf had to get back to the

1134
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:09,720
Speaker 1: New World and open his church and everything, he ended

1135
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 1: up reluctantly having to leave Thomas in England to be

1136
01:06:13,200 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 1: cared for by his brother Um expecting, I think to

1137
01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:18,920
Speaker 1: see him, you know, have him to be sent to

1138
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:22,040
Speaker 1: Virginia at some point, but he actually would never see

1139
01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:25,560
Speaker 1: him again. Thomas would not sail to Virginia until sixteen

1140
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:29,000
Speaker 1: thirty five, which is thirteen years after John Rolfe died,

1141
01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:32,120
Speaker 1: so he kind of lost both his parents that day.

1142
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 1: And paw Hatton fell into a deep depression when he

1143
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:39,240
Speaker 1: found out about Pocahon's death, and this had been his

1144
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 1: favorite daughter, you know, for her whole life. She'd been

1145
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:47,920
Speaker 1: such a an important part of this story. And pow

1146
01:06:48,040 --> 01:06:50,760
Speaker 1: Hatton's like, what's in his seventies at this point, she's

1147
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:53,720
Speaker 1: only twenty one. I mean, he probably definitely expected her

1148
01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:57,280
Speaker 1: to live a lot long. Absolutely, the English got word

1149
01:06:57,320 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 1: of his death in April of sixteen eighteen, and he

1150
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:04,000
Speaker 1: was succeeded first by a brother who proved ineffectual, and

1151
01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:09,160
Speaker 1: then by his brother Opechankanaw, the last great pow Hotton leader.

1152
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:13,120
Speaker 1: And remember Opa Chackinaw had gotten all that shitty feedback

1153
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:17,959
Speaker 1: about anything from Toma Como being like, these guys aren't cool.

1154
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:21,640
Speaker 1: And Helen Rowntree writes in a stunning throwback to our

1155
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 1: Carl Tandler episode again second reference to that that quote.

1156
01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:30,920
Speaker 1: If his funeral followed custom, then paw Hotton's body was flayed,

1157
01:07:31,320 --> 01:07:36,040
Speaker 1: his flesh removed from the bones and dried, his skeleton rearticulated,

1158
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:40,080
Speaker 1: and his abdomen filled with valuables, and the whole covered

1159
01:07:40,200 --> 01:07:43,080
Speaker 1: with the preserved skin to achieve a semblance of the

1160
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:48,520
Speaker 1: living form. Uh. You know, hey, that's a cultural tradition,

1161
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:52,760
Speaker 1: and in its own way, it's beautiful. In my way,

1162
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 1: it's not because I'm a little terrified of skin being

1163
01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:59,320
Speaker 1: taken off and then put back on again. But you know,

1164
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 1: that was that their thing. But this was this was

1165
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:07,800
Speaker 1: not strange. This was a very normal tradition. Um and uh.

1166
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:10,600
Speaker 1: And to them, it wasn't one of the most horrifying

1167
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:14,160
Speaker 1: things they've ever heard. And that's okay. We've ever We

1168
01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 1: grow up with different ideas, That's okay. John Rolph ended

1169
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:21,680
Speaker 1: up back in Virginia, as we know, with his or

1170
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:25,920
Speaker 1: no co flow. He married a third time, and he

1171
01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:30,160
Speaker 1: died in sixteen twenty two. But though his marriage and

1172
01:08:30,360 --> 01:08:33,759
Speaker 1: his tobacco enterprise was critical to the success of the colony,

1173
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:39,200
Speaker 1: he was, as Tony Wrights quote, gradually airbrushed from American memory.

1174
01:08:40,320 --> 01:08:44,800
Speaker 1: But why you know, I'm like John rolf It seems

1175
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:48,240
Speaker 1: like a cool American hero. He like smuggled these seeds

1176
01:08:48,360 --> 01:08:51,559
Speaker 1: over and had a whole business concern he was trying

1177
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:54,000
Speaker 1: to start. And he's the reason this whole colony started

1178
01:08:54,040 --> 01:08:56,320
Speaker 1: turning a profit. We loved turning a profit. That's true.

1179
01:08:56,360 --> 01:09:00,200
Speaker 1: You'd think we'd learn more about him well. To the

1180
01:09:00,280 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 1: reason is because by the time we started to celebrate

1181
01:09:03,360 --> 01:09:07,759
Speaker 1: Jamestown as a country most states had banned marriage between

1182
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:11,080
Speaker 1: Native Americans and white people, and that, of course made

1183
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:16,280
Speaker 1: John rolf and Poconi's story a little awkward. But also

1184
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:20,400
Speaker 1: people in Virginia became super obsessed with being able to

1185
01:09:20,520 --> 01:09:23,840
Speaker 1: tie their lineage to Pocahonist and John Rolfe. I guess

1186
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 1: it's like old money New York being like myle until

1187
01:09:27,040 --> 01:09:29,639
Speaker 1: it just came over the Bay Flower. You know, it's

1188
01:09:29,720 --> 01:09:34,559
Speaker 1: like that in Virginia. To be like that great grandmother

1189
01:09:34,680 --> 01:09:41,080
Speaker 1: was Poconta's right. So in when Virginia passed its Act

1190
01:09:41,240 --> 01:09:46,280
Speaker 1: to Preserve Racial Integrity that segregated anyone with any trace

1191
01:09:46,360 --> 01:09:49,799
Speaker 1: of a non Caucasian heritage, they made sure to include

1192
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:54,600
Speaker 1: a clause exempting white Virginians with quote one sixteenth or

1193
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:59,439
Speaker 1: less of Indian heritage and quote no other non Caucasic blood.

1194
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:04,160
Speaker 1: And this became known as the Pocahontas Clause. I'm sorry,

1195
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:10,439
Speaker 1: Virginia did what I mean in nineteen twenty four, just

1196
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:13,080
Speaker 1: a decade before, we were causing a real fuss about

1197
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:17,960
Speaker 1: a whole other group of people being stodgy about racial purity. Yeah,

1198
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:19,880
Speaker 1: we we had just come off of it. We have

1199
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:23,360
Speaker 1: we were dealing with it. Ourselves right over here. Yeah,

1200
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:28,559
Speaker 1: act to preserve racial integrity. Gross, incredibly gross. And then

1201
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:31,200
Speaker 1: that that they were also like, but let's count how

1202
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:34,479
Speaker 1: many generations from Pocahona And that's this as much as

1203
01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:39,719
Speaker 1: you can have heard blood specifically. Wow. And it's okay

1204
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:43,559
Speaker 1: because it makes us look good to have people here

1205
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:46,240
Speaker 1: from the colonists date. I don't know, it's very weird.

1206
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:50,080
Speaker 1: I don't know anyone who cares about anything as much

1207
01:10:50,160 --> 01:10:53,680
Speaker 1: as racists care about race, you know, like the the

1208
01:10:55,360 --> 01:11:00,360
Speaker 1: bonkers lengths they go to. It's blowing my momd and

1209
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:03,560
Speaker 1: and every day you learn more about it, and it's like, what,

1210
01:11:04,520 --> 01:11:10,080
Speaker 1: holy shit, what is wrong in your brain? A lot,

1211
01:11:10,439 --> 01:11:15,439
Speaker 1: a lot, well, at least one big thing. But then

1212
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:20,320
Speaker 1: John Smith was the perfect American hero, Tony writes, quote

1213
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:25,920
Speaker 1: a man of action and dash, self made, individualistic, iconoclastic,

1214
01:11:26,400 --> 01:11:30,240
Speaker 1: a braggart, a con man, an escape artist, an accomplished killer,

1215
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:35,240
Speaker 1: scornful of rank, and ceaseless in his salesmanship. Like, that's

1216
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:38,560
Speaker 1: that's who we want to tell stories about. So of

1217
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:42,160
Speaker 1: course John Smith became the favored figure in this in

1218
01:11:42,280 --> 01:11:46,360
Speaker 1: this tall tale, and of course creating this story of

1219
01:11:46,479 --> 01:11:50,640
Speaker 1: the quote good Indian who was attracted to Christianity and

1220
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:54,080
Speaker 1: English customs and society, who fell in love with a

1221
01:11:54,160 --> 01:11:56,599
Speaker 1: white man and preferred his way of life to her own,

1222
01:11:56,960 --> 01:11:59,920
Speaker 1: who foiled her own people's plans and preference for white

1223
01:12:00,080 --> 01:12:04,800
Speaker 1: people that softened the story of the brutal English subjugation

1224
01:12:05,479 --> 01:12:08,880
Speaker 1: of the natives. So that's so basically all in all,

1225
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 1: we can see why the story of Pocahonis and John

1226
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:14,400
Speaker 1: Smith is the one we've been hearing all these years,

1227
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:18,320
Speaker 1: and not not John Rolf or not the whole real

1228
01:12:18,439 --> 01:12:23,480
Speaker 1: story of all three of them and everyone else involved. Yeah, seriously,

1229
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:28,320
Speaker 1: and it's you know, and just you can see why

1230
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:32,320
Speaker 1: it kind of feels like Pocahonis is barely a person

1231
01:12:32,400 --> 01:12:36,280
Speaker 1: anymore because she's been so propagandized by each and every

1232
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:39,240
Speaker 1: side of the story where whatever they were trying to do,

1233
01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:42,760
Speaker 1: with whatever they were trying to do, they made her

1234
01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:47,479
Speaker 1: story work for it. And so it's it's just incredibly

1235
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:50,800
Speaker 1: difficult to parse out who this woman was. I wish

1236
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:52,600
Speaker 1: I had a little more information about her likes and

1237
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:56,120
Speaker 1: dislikes or what her personality was beyond she was a

1238
01:12:56,160 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 1: playful woman, a playful one as a kid, and like

1239
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:02,639
Speaker 1: to turn cartwheels, and I guess had, you know, sort

1240
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:07,880
Speaker 1: of an optimistic, cheerful, loving outlook about things at least

1241
01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:10,840
Speaker 1: at least yeah, when she was nine, or at least

1242
01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:12,680
Speaker 1: when she's ten or eleven or whatever, when they were

1243
01:13:12,680 --> 01:13:14,640
Speaker 1: actually writing about her as a person. And when they

1244
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:17,679
Speaker 1: stopped doing that, it's no one knows. I mean, there's

1245
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:21,479
Speaker 1: just it's and it's really sad because again, this is

1246
01:13:21,479 --> 01:13:24,240
Speaker 1: a real person who really lived in breathe, and she

1247
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:26,640
Speaker 1: had her own desires and her own goals for her

1248
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:29,840
Speaker 1: life and for her family and had two to three

1249
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:32,439
Speaker 1: children and didn't get to raise any of them. And

1250
01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:36,960
Speaker 1: it's just frustrating. It's just frustrating. It makes me want

1251
01:13:37,000 --> 01:13:38,720
Speaker 1: to keep a diary, you know what I mean, Like,

1252
01:13:38,760 --> 01:13:41,519
Speaker 1: I don't want nobody till somebody what I was thinking.

1253
01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:44,120
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I was thinking. Don't worry, I'll

1254
01:13:44,160 --> 01:13:48,680
Speaker 1: tell them all what you were thinking. She thought I

1255
01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:52,320
Speaker 1: was great, Well that's true. Oh see, I got it right.

1256
01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:55,800
Speaker 1: That's all I know about her. She thought I was great,

1257
01:13:56,160 --> 01:14:00,560
Speaker 1: Well I need to know the end. Yeah. It is

1258
01:14:01,160 --> 01:14:04,200
Speaker 1: really fascinating to break this down, to see all these

1259
01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:06,880
Speaker 1: different sides of it. You know, sometimes I think you

1260
01:14:06,960 --> 01:14:11,360
Speaker 1: can you go into these like real stories and you're like, oh, well,

1261
01:14:12,160 --> 01:14:16,000
Speaker 1: you know, there there's some balance here between these these

1262
01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:19,080
Speaker 1: two factions that we're fighting over this land and uh.

1263
01:14:19,280 --> 01:14:21,240
Speaker 1: And they were always trying to see common ground. And

1264
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:24,920
Speaker 1: it wasn't all Percy's. There were some john Smith's who

1265
01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:27,240
Speaker 1: were like trying to negotiate and make things work out

1266
01:14:27,280 --> 01:14:31,600
Speaker 1: for everyone's in everyone's favor. Um. But underneath all that,

1267
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:34,320
Speaker 1: you kind of can't forget that they never should have

1268
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:36,599
Speaker 1: been here in the first place, claiming it as their own,

1269
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:40,360
Speaker 1: because this was a place people already lived. You know,

1270
01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:42,320
Speaker 1: you want to show up in a new country and

1271
01:14:42,400 --> 01:14:45,040
Speaker 1: say like, hey, we've been over here. Do you guys

1272
01:14:45,120 --> 01:14:46,960
Speaker 1: want to talk? Do you want to open some lines

1273
01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:49,840
Speaker 1: of trade? You wanta you wanna? Maybe you guys some

1274
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:51,760
Speaker 1: if y'all want to come live over in our land,

1275
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:53,960
Speaker 1: you can, and maybe some of us can live over here,

1276
01:14:54,200 --> 01:14:59,880
Speaker 1: like that's build an embassy or normal inter continental trade

1277
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:06,519
Speaker 1: and open communication. Awesome. I love it showing up and saying, hey,

1278
01:15:06,720 --> 01:15:10,760
Speaker 1: this is cool, it's mine now, by the way, right,

1279
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:12,560
Speaker 1: and I know you're a king, but actually you're a

1280
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:14,840
Speaker 1: subject of my king, even though you never fucking heard

1281
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:20,040
Speaker 1: of him, like what very weird. It's difficult, so happy

1282
01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:24,160
Speaker 1: Thanksgiving anyway, I don't really understand. And then I will say, like,

1283
01:15:24,320 --> 01:15:26,800
Speaker 1: another reason I really like the book A Voyage Long

1284
01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:29,519
Speaker 1: and Strange, which we used quite a lot for these

1285
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:34,080
Speaker 1: episodes as well, is because Tony Horwitz he he follows

1286
01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:36,640
Speaker 1: the trail of the Vikings or the conquistadors or the

1287
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:41,120
Speaker 1: colonists in history, and then he goes in person today

1288
01:15:41,479 --> 01:15:44,400
Speaker 1: to see and follows the trail today and kind of

1289
01:15:44,479 --> 01:15:47,200
Speaker 1: tells you like, Okay, I'm talking to natives now today

1290
01:15:47,400 --> 01:15:49,000
Speaker 1: how they are feeling about this. Or I'm talking to

1291
01:15:49,040 --> 01:15:51,760
Speaker 1: white people now today who trace their lineage to Pocahonus,

1292
01:15:51,880 --> 01:15:53,960
Speaker 1: Or I'm talking New Swedes who live in Kansas City

1293
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:55,519
Speaker 1: and I don't know how they got there, but but

1294
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:57,679
Speaker 1: you're going to tell me, you know. And it's really

1295
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:01,200
Speaker 1: very interesting, and a lot of the natives that he

1296
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:05,080
Speaker 1: spoke to, particularly about Pokeahonas, we're just kind of like,

1297
01:16:05,240 --> 01:16:08,880
Speaker 1: you know. Another thing that really bothers me about the

1298
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:12,240
Speaker 1: story of Pocahonas is that it takes away everything about

1299
01:16:12,280 --> 01:16:16,519
Speaker 1: our our people beyond they were either stoic and kind

1300
01:16:16,720 --> 01:16:19,639
Speaker 1: and had their arms wide open, and we're mowed down

1301
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:25,280
Speaker 1: quickly and gone forever, or they were these brutal, you know,

1302
01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:29,960
Speaker 1: worrying nations and you know, came at them with sticks

1303
01:16:30,040 --> 01:16:33,160
Speaker 1: and got mowed down and that was it. And they're like,

1304
01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:36,639
Speaker 1: you kind of were taking away all of our pomp

1305
01:16:36,760 --> 01:16:39,280
Speaker 1: and our dumbness and all our stupid ship that we are.

1306
01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:42,000
Speaker 1: We're also people, you know, natives are also people. So

1307
01:16:42,080 --> 01:16:45,240
Speaker 1: they had plenty of of their own ideas about taking

1308
01:16:45,320 --> 01:16:49,000
Speaker 1: over property or or being in charge, or falling in

1309
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:51,600
Speaker 1: love or what you know, all that, and you it

1310
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:55,440
Speaker 1: does kind of get obscured with like, well, anyway, unfortunately

1311
01:16:56,120 --> 01:16:59,120
Speaker 1: those traditions are gone because we mowed over a bunch

1312
01:16:59,200 --> 01:17:03,360
Speaker 1: of those people. And um so now it's just this

1313
01:17:03,600 --> 01:17:08,320
Speaker 1: very narrow view of this whole really rich culture. Um So, anyway,

1314
01:17:08,479 --> 01:17:10,400
Speaker 1: just another plug for that book. You should read it.

1315
01:17:10,600 --> 01:17:13,920
Speaker 1: That's cool, That's very cool. And I guess in the

1316
01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:16,759
Speaker 1: interest of Thanksgiving to like I do think it's important

1317
01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:21,160
Speaker 1: to we've been critical in this episode of American colonists

1318
01:17:21,280 --> 01:17:24,280
Speaker 1: and and all our descendants and you know America today

1319
01:17:24,920 --> 01:17:28,280
Speaker 1: and England and what they were doing here and across

1320
01:17:28,360 --> 01:17:32,320
Speaker 1: the world. Um And that's important, And that doesn't mean Uh,

1321
01:17:32,520 --> 01:17:35,200
Speaker 1: you know, I hate living here so much and everything

1322
01:17:35,200 --> 01:17:39,120
Speaker 1: about it's horrible. Like, it's just important to recognize this

1323
01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:42,600
Speaker 1: so that as you're moving forward, to what degree you

1324
01:17:42,680 --> 01:17:45,720
Speaker 1: can of make amends you do and um, to what

1325
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:48,479
Speaker 1: degree you cannot let these things happen in the future

1326
01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:52,920
Speaker 1: you do. It's it just matters, and you can and

1327
01:17:53,040 --> 01:17:56,360
Speaker 1: both of those viewpoints can exist at the same time.

1328
01:17:56,960 --> 01:18:00,519
Speaker 1: You can be like you can look you can look

1329
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:08,639
Speaker 1: critically at the racial history of this country in theory, um.

1330
01:18:10,320 --> 01:18:13,080
Speaker 1: And I think that's uh, that's really important for us

1331
01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:18,480
Speaker 1: to kind of just keep in our standardized and personal educations,

1332
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:20,879
Speaker 1: you know, because we also have to keep teaching ourselves

1333
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:24,040
Speaker 1: because as we have learned, history is only so much

1334
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:28,439
Speaker 1: and you know, to to public schools credit there's only

1335
01:18:28,600 --> 01:18:31,360
Speaker 1: so much time in a school year, and history keeps

1336
01:18:31,360 --> 01:18:34,559
Speaker 1: getting longer, right, so you you can't you don't. There's

1337
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:37,360
Speaker 1: literally not time in twelve years of school to look

1338
01:18:37,400 --> 01:18:40,599
Speaker 1: at every angle. Um. So it's I think it's important

1339
01:18:40,760 --> 01:18:43,479
Speaker 1: to I mean, Jesus, we're just doing it out of

1340
01:18:43,560 --> 01:18:46,960
Speaker 1: necessity for for this job. But it's so cool that

1341
01:18:47,080 --> 01:18:49,040
Speaker 1: we get to go dig up all these other sources

1342
01:18:49,600 --> 01:18:52,760
Speaker 1: and really makes me want to spend my free time

1343
01:18:52,840 --> 01:18:56,799
Speaker 1: doing that more. Um, so you know, your personal education

1344
01:18:57,320 --> 01:19:01,160
Speaker 1: and analysis is just as important. And hopefully some of

1345
01:19:01,240 --> 01:19:04,800
Speaker 1: y'all are listening to this show as your education actually

1346
01:19:05,200 --> 01:19:07,839
Speaker 1: scares me, but I kind of it would also be awesome,

1347
01:19:07,960 --> 01:19:13,439
Speaker 1: So we are we are, But yeah, we would love

1348
01:19:13,439 --> 01:19:16,400
Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts on both parts of this story.

1349
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:18,479
Speaker 1: And maybe I mean I'd love to hear what you

1350
01:19:18,600 --> 01:19:22,200
Speaker 1: thought was true before you listened, because I know some

1351
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:25,200
Speaker 1: people have really educated themselves about the real truth of

1352
01:19:25,320 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 1: John Smith and many people maybe and I think schools

1353
01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:34,280
Speaker 1: have even changed how they're teaching that story somewhat putting

1354
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:35,800
Speaker 1: a question mark there because I don't know for sure,

1355
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:38,800
Speaker 1: probably depends on the school. Um, but yeah, I'm very

1356
01:19:38,880 --> 01:19:42,400
Speaker 1: curious to see, like what people thought the story was

1357
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:44,720
Speaker 1: and what they thought was untrue and true about it

1358
01:19:44,920 --> 01:19:47,920
Speaker 1: or whatever. You know, just any of your I'll go

1359
01:19:47,960 --> 01:19:50,800
Speaker 1: ahead and set the barlow. I knew nothing. I mean

1360
01:19:50,880 --> 01:19:53,400
Speaker 1: I literally like I knew that the Disney movie was

1361
01:19:53,479 --> 01:19:56,080
Speaker 1: wrong and that's all I knew. Yeah, Um, I knew

1362
01:19:56,120 --> 01:19:58,599
Speaker 1: that she was a lot younger. That's that's pretty much

1363
01:19:58,680 --> 01:20:01,400
Speaker 1: where I came into this from. Like pocahonas Yeah, she

1364
01:20:01,520 --> 01:20:04,040
Speaker 1: married a different guy, and I think she was like

1365
01:20:04,200 --> 01:20:08,080
Speaker 1: twelves at first. Um, and that's that's it. That's that's

1366
01:20:08,080 --> 01:20:11,519
Speaker 1: pretty good, pretty much all I knew. So, Um, we

1367
01:20:11,600 --> 01:20:13,320
Speaker 1: didn't talk about it in school. I don't think this

1368
01:20:13,400 --> 01:20:15,760
Speaker 1: one came up in our American history class. No. I

1369
01:20:15,880 --> 01:20:18,479
Speaker 1: only remember that, like the one time I didn't do

1370
01:20:18,600 --> 01:20:22,240
Speaker 1: my homework. I always did my homework as a very

1371
01:20:22,640 --> 01:20:26,439
Speaker 1: nerdy nerd, and I liked my homework. I did my homework,

1372
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:30,680
Speaker 1: but mostly this one time I did not do it.

1373
01:20:31,120 --> 01:20:32,800
Speaker 1: And the next day we had like a pop quiz

1374
01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:35,280
Speaker 1: and one of the questions was about the story of

1375
01:20:35,320 --> 01:20:38,040
Speaker 1: Pocahonas and I was straight up like, I guess I'll

1376
01:20:38,120 --> 01:20:40,040
Speaker 1: take the Disney movie out of my brain and put

1377
01:20:40,120 --> 01:20:42,920
Speaker 1: it on here and said, no, she loved John Smith

1378
01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:44,720
Speaker 1: or whatever. And of course did not get that question.

1379
01:20:44,840 --> 01:20:48,559
Speaker 1: A raccoon and a hummingbird, yea, they were talking, they

1380
01:20:48,600 --> 01:20:54,000
Speaker 1: didn't talk. Gibson was in it, Christian Bale. But yeah,

1381
01:20:54,120 --> 01:20:57,160
Speaker 1: so I like that that red X lives forever in

1382
01:20:57,240 --> 01:21:00,400
Speaker 1: my memory. So I knew it wasn't true as a kid,

1383
01:21:00,439 --> 01:21:01,960
Speaker 1: but I'm not sure I ever looked into it, you

1384
01:21:02,000 --> 01:21:04,280
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Yeah, I love that the one

1385
01:21:04,400 --> 01:21:06,840
Speaker 1: time you didn't do your homework there was a pop

1386
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:08,880
Speaker 1: quiz the next day. And to this day you get

1387
01:21:08,920 --> 01:21:10,920
Speaker 1: anxiety if your work's not done by the end of

1388
01:21:10,920 --> 01:21:13,559
Speaker 1: the day, probably just because of that. I'm like, it's

1389
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:15,360
Speaker 1: going to be the one time I didn't prepare that

1390
01:21:15,479 --> 01:21:18,240
Speaker 1: it matters. It's always the one time you didn't prepare

1391
01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:22,320
Speaker 1: that it matters, by the way, not in my experience,

1392
01:21:25,640 --> 01:21:27,320
Speaker 1: that's what it feels. I was one of those B

1393
01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:30,880
Speaker 1: minus students because I never My homework average was zero.

1394
01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:33,639
Speaker 1: But I came in and I rocked those quizzes and tests.

1395
01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:36,519
Speaker 1: Now as an a student, but I'm not a teacher's pet.

1396
01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:39,080
Speaker 1: I'll say that I didn't know how to be a

1397
01:21:39,120 --> 01:21:41,760
Speaker 1: teacher's pet. English teacher Mrs Waters, and I lover and

1398
01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:44,120
Speaker 1: I'll ever forget her, called me aside one day at

1399
01:21:44,160 --> 01:21:46,479
Speaker 1: the end of the semester and she said, Eli, you

1400
01:21:46,560 --> 01:21:48,680
Speaker 1: are a square peg in the round hole of the

1401
01:21:48,720 --> 01:21:52,400
Speaker 1: public education system, but you have to do it. You're

1402
01:21:52,479 --> 01:21:56,680
Speaker 1: smarter than this. And I did a little bit more

1403
01:21:56,840 --> 01:21:59,680
Speaker 1: for a while than that fizzled a way. She she

1404
01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:03,360
Speaker 1: try your academic career all right, now, look at you.

1405
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:06,960
Speaker 1: You're you're given history lessons. Well, I'll just marry a

1406
01:22:07,040 --> 01:22:10,680
Speaker 1: smart girl. Oh, marry an a students and yeah, we'll

1407
01:22:10,720 --> 01:22:13,080
Speaker 1: both find out that it doesn't actually matter later on

1408
01:22:13,080 --> 01:22:17,719
Speaker 1: in life. Kind of same position. Well, yes, please, okay,

1409
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:20,759
Speaker 1: please reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you, especially,

1410
01:22:21,000 --> 01:22:22,960
Speaker 1: I mean, do you have a connection to this story

1411
01:22:23,080 --> 01:22:26,320
Speaker 1: or are you one six related to Polcahuntas okay, or

1412
01:22:26,439 --> 01:22:29,240
Speaker 1: if you're from any of these tries, especially if you

1413
01:22:29,320 --> 01:22:32,800
Speaker 1: have any opinion on the Mattapony oral history or any

1414
01:22:32,880 --> 01:22:35,320
Speaker 1: of that. Definitely would love to hear. I would love

1415
01:22:35,400 --> 01:22:37,360
Speaker 1: to hear. Please get back to us. You can reach

1416
01:22:37,479 --> 01:22:40,599
Speaker 1: us through email at Romance, at iHeart media dot com,

1417
01:22:41,240 --> 01:22:44,560
Speaker 1: or on social media Twitter and Instagram. I'm at Dianamite

1418
01:22:44,600 --> 01:22:46,800
Speaker 1: Boom and I'm at oh Great, It's Eli and the

1419
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:50,080
Speaker 1: show is at ridic Romance. We are so happy to

1420
01:22:50,160 --> 01:22:51,880
Speaker 1: hear from you all the time. We hope you had

1421
01:22:51,880 --> 01:22:54,400
Speaker 1: a lovely Thanksgiving week and then we're moving into this

1422
01:22:54,520 --> 01:22:57,800
Speaker 1: holiday season everybody's having, you know, joy and cheer and

1423
01:22:57,840 --> 01:23:01,040
Speaker 1: all that good stuff. Yes, and we are so just

1424
01:23:01,560 --> 01:23:05,479
Speaker 1: very thankful for you spending your wonderful free time with us.

1425
01:23:05,640 --> 01:23:09,240
Speaker 1: We are or your multitasking time or whatever it is

1426
01:23:09,360 --> 01:23:11,879
Speaker 1: you do while your listeners chat. We just really appreciate

1427
01:23:11,960 --> 01:23:15,200
Speaker 1: you choosing us. We are and were thankful for your neighbors,

1428
01:23:15,280 --> 01:23:18,000
Speaker 1: your uncle's, your aunts who listen as well. And please

1429
01:23:18,040 --> 01:23:22,160
Speaker 1: share this episode and any others around whatever way you can. Well,

1430
01:23:22,200 --> 01:23:24,719
Speaker 1: thanks everyone, We'll catch on the next one. Can't wait

1431
01:23:25,120 --> 01:23:28,920
Speaker 1: so long, friends, it's time to go. Thanks so listening

1432
01:23:29,040 --> 01:23:32,599
Speaker 1: to our show. Tell your friends, neighbors, uncle's in dance

1433
01:23:32,920 --> 01:23:35,280
Speaker 1: to listen to a show ridiculous, Well NaNs