1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:01,800 Speaker 1: That's what they have to figure out is how to 2 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: present the game and so they can maximize their money 3 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: and they can grow it. And I think you know, 4 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,639 Speaker 1: it's a combination of distribution, so broadcast, you can argue 5 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,039 Speaker 1: some of the new streamers, but they're not there yet 6 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: for not marquee events. 7 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 2: All right, here you go. We've got Andrew Marshan joining 8 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 2: us right now, senior writer for the Athletics Sports Media Expert. 9 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 2: Have been following him for a long time and you 10 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 2: can also check out his podcast multiple times a week 11 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 2: on the very topic we're going over, and many others 12 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 2: all around sports media at Andrewmarshan dot com. Andrew, great 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 2: to have you on man. Obviously a huge story that 14 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 2: we wanted to dive into with you because ESPN and 15 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 2: MLB just announced a massive divorce. Can you take us 16 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 2: through what the implications will be for baseball fans, for 17 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 2: MLB and for ESPN. 18 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: So, yeah, it's a big deal. The next year, nothing, 19 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: this upcoming season, nothing will change. But as it stands now, 20 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: ESPN they owed baseball five hundred and fifty million dollars 21 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 1: a year for the next three years after this season, 22 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: you know, as they're gonna pay it this year. Of course, 23 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: they do Sunday Night Baseball, they do the home run Derby, 24 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: and they have the first round of the playoffs. So 25 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: they looked at this contract and they said five hundred 26 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: and fifteen million dollars. Wait a minute. Apple pays ninety 27 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,959 Speaker 1: million for their double headed regular season national games exclusive 28 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: on Friday, Roku on Sundays paying ten million. We agree 29 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: we should pay more than them because our package includes playoffs, 30 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: home run derby. Sunday Night Baseball is better. But is 31 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: it fifty five times better than Roku? Is it six 32 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: and not very good? Maths six times better than Apple? 33 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: They said no. The two sides pretty heated. Yesterday, Rob 34 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: Manfred sent a memo to the owners that my colleague 35 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: Evan Drelich of the LETEK obtained, and he said that 36 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: the ESPN is a platform that's shrinking, which I don't 37 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: think he would have said if they were still willing 38 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: to pay them five hundred and fifty million dollars. So 39 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: now baseball goes into those final three years with nobody 40 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 1: to work with yet. Manford said he has two places 41 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 1: that are potential new distribution partners, but we'll see what 42 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: happens next who's. 43 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 3: To blame for this? Nobody's nobody's blaming ESPN for wanting 44 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 3: to save money and read the landscape. But nobody's blaming 45 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 3: MLB for blaming ESPN for not covering baseball the way 46 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 3: that they should or shouldn't. So who's to blame? Who 47 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 3: really gets the brunt of this blame? 48 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll blame somebody Rob Manfred and Noah Garden Manfred 49 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,839 Speaker 1: if you I don't know what their vision is as 50 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: of yet in terms of their TV deals. They were 51 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: mad because the last time around in twenty twenty one, 52 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,160 Speaker 1: ESPN chairman Jimmy Pittaro, he lowered what he was offering 53 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: from around seven hundred and seven fifty millions with ESPN 54 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: was paying to the current five hundred and fifty million 55 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: dollars a year, which I think is five to seventy 56 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: for this season. So they weigh these things, they average 57 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 1: out over the whole contract, and so you know, you 58 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: generally at the end they are more than at the beginning, 59 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: and so, okay, you're mad about that. But then you 60 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: go and you take the extra games at ESPN didn't 61 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: want anymore, and you go to Apple and you sell 62 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: them for ninety million dollars and you call an experiment. 63 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: You go to Roku. Well, first you have Peacock, but 64 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: then you go to Roku and you sell them for 65 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: ten million dollars. I don't know how you can expect 66 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: ESPN to sit there and say you've just devalued how 67 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: much you say regular season games cost. And again not 68 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: that ESPN's package is slightly better. But if you look 69 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: Roku's schedule came out this week, it's not bad. It 70 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: has some Yankee games, some Dodger games, I believe, and 71 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: it's it's okay, and there is some exclusivity because those 72 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: games start a little bit earlier. ESPN has the full 73 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: ramp of nobody else playing on Sunday night. It's clearly better, 74 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 1: is it. It probably is worth you know, two hundred, 75 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty maybe three hundred million dollars. You probably, 76 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: you know, should be paying for that package at this point. 77 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: And so yeah, I think, like, I don't know what 78 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: their vision is. Having the opt out that they agreed 79 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: to with three years left is not ideal because most 80 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: partners want a longer term deal so they have stability. 81 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: And after the twenty twenty eight season, Fox t and 82 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: t and this deal are gonna be up, and so 83 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: I don't really see. And then obviously they also have 84 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 1: the regional sports network problem, and it's not a great 85 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: These aren't great cards that they've been dealt. So I'm 86 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: not I'm a little sympathetic in terms of that, but 87 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: I don't see at this moment the vision of what 88 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: they're trying to do and how it's cohesive. Because ESPN 89 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: is likely their best partner that they could have. We 90 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: can talk about the Amazons, we could talk about maybe 91 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: another network, Apple, Roku, you Google YouTube. The streamers are 92 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: unproven with regular season baseball, and you're gonna talk about 93 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: that ESPN's not featuring baseball on it's on Sports Center 94 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: or their talk shows, and maybe that's true. Go to 95 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: a streamer and let's see what the ratings are if 96 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,280 Speaker 1: you're major League Baseball for regular season games. I don't 97 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: think they're gonna be great. I don't think that many 98 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: people think less people will watch, and I think you're 99 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: taking big risk of going to those twenty twenty eight 100 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: deals that you're gonna have to renew or reconfigure. 101 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 3: Did Rob Manfred's comments were they too petty in a 102 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 3: sense of like, well, if you're not going to then 103 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 3: you're not that cool anyway, ESPN and we're fine with it. 104 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 3: Were they too petty in the sense that whoever's going 105 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 3: to be picking up these games or whoever they're going 106 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 3: to next the two other places that he said they're 107 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 3: going to be, you know, possibly streaming on, Like do 108 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 3: you really want to work with the guy who does 109 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 3: this at the divorce of, you know, a long standing 110 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 3: relationship that Major League Baseball on ESPN had. 111 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 1: So I'm a person who thinks like you have a 112 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: reason for everything you do, and so especially we're talking 113 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: about if you're the commissioner here, what's the strategic reason 114 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: to this ESPN here after a long relationship that has 115 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: been a good relationship overall. You could argue that they don't. 116 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: The reason that you guys, you know, are are off 117 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: to success is because you have an audience that likes 118 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: to talk about baseball. But I'm not saying it's a 119 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: niche audience, because I think there's a big niche for baseball. 120 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: There's a lot of baseball fans. But if you want 121 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: to do a show like First Take, people want to 122 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: hear about the cowboys. So the idea that it's not. 123 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: They would talk about the Milwaukee Brewers on first take 124 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: if more people would watch. They're just doing what the 125 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: metrics say. And so to bring up that stuff, which 126 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: I don't think really concerns them, the five hundred and 127 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: fifty million dollars is what concerns Major League Baseball, I 128 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: don't see the purpose of that. I also, ESPN still 129 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: wants to be in business with Major League Baseball. They 130 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: want to have national games. They'd like to be part 131 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: of the solutions for regional sports games and all the 132 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 1: problems with the RSNS. And the other thing is they 133 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: have someone in Jimmy Pittaro who's a huge baseball fan. 134 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: And when you make these decisions, you'd like to say, well, 135 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 1: that doesn't matter. I think it does matter a little bit. 136 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: The guy in charge eats and drinks and breeds the 137 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: New York Yankees still gets upset over regular season losses. 138 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: And so that's someone who you want. And his sister 139 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: works in the commissioner's office, so you feel like that's 140 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: someone who's I wouldn't say family, but it's someone who 141 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 1: you could work with. And here's the other question you 142 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: have to ask yourself. You're major League Baseball. Why did 143 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: did the deal the last deal go down from seven 144 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: hundred plus to five point fifty because they didn't have 145 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: somebody else to go to. They had somebody else to 146 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: go to, then they would have or they at least 147 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: used to, you would have used the leverage to keep 148 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: the number at the same number. Why did they end 149 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: up at Roku for ten million dollars? Because nobody really 150 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: wanted those deals. Now the streamers have matured. Amazon's clearly. 151 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: I think they're probably ESPN's biggest rival right now, with 152 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: Netflix maybe around the corner because they have the NFL, 153 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: they have Thursday Night Football, they liked the idea, they 154 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: have a relationship with the Yankees. They've been very smart 155 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: and so could they be the saving grace maybe? But 156 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: they also I don't know if they're just writing a 157 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: check because they can. That's not what their mo is. Yeah, Netflix, 158 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: Apple has not been a success. They don't release any numbers. 159 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: I can't say the numbers I've heard, but they've not 160 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: been good. And you just have a feel too when 161 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 1: when those games are on for people for their local team, 162 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: is their excitement or is it a nuisance? And I 163 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: think I think almost one hundred percent. People would say 164 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: it's a nuisance. It's four times a year, and I 165 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: don't really see the strategy of what they're doing. They 166 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,559 Speaker 1: got to really rethink when they get the twenty twenty 167 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: eight in terms of how they're gonna sell their packages 168 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 1: because they have to do it differently than they are 169 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: now because it's a different world with streaming, and again 170 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: there's no vision right now. So to answer your question, 171 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 1: I don't understand why you make those comments because I 172 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 1: think if you're smart, you want ESPN still involved. That's 173 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: only gonna help you. It's not gonna hurt you if 174 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: you have ESPN at the table, even if you want 175 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: to leave. 176 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, misguided and dumb, take the high road. It's not 177 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 2: like it's the last time you're ever going to work 178 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 2: with them. I'm totally with you. And it's not like 179 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 2: we always get straight shooter comments and that's fine, we 180 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 2: know what we're getting from the league. But Commissioner Man 181 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 2: for talking about the a situation, Commissioner Man for talking 182 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 2: about the uniform disaster, right like, all that gets covered up, 183 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 2: but then we're gonna blast ESPN. Yeah that rubbed me 184 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 2: the wrong way. So here's the perfect follow up I 185 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,959 Speaker 2: think for the league to think about is do they 186 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 2: really have multiple other streamers or networks involved here? Do 187 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 2: you think that they do? He promised everyone in his letter. 188 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 2: It's not like he was talking off the cuff when 189 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: he blasted ESPN. He also said in the letter in writing, 190 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 2: we've got two other dance partners. Do you believe it 191 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 2: in any speculation on who that would be? 192 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: So, you know, part of reporting is trying to be prepared. 193 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 1: So I've talked to a lot of places to try 194 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: to gauge interest. Do I think there would people want 195 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: to broadcast or stream baseball? Yes? Are they going to 196 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: come close to five hundred and fifty million dollars? Very 197 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: doubtful that they'll get even any you know, near that number. 198 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: I'd be surprised by that because of the precedents of 199 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: the other deals and where the value is. A Sunday 200 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: night baseball game probably brings in about a million and 201 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: a half to two million dollars when you add it 202 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: all up in advertising per game. There's twenty six of 203 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: them around, So do the mat there. You're talking about 204 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: fifty two million in the playoffs, maybe add another one 205 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: hundred million. Home run Derby. I think you can get 206 00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: the two hundred million, and maybe then it's baseball you 207 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: get two hundred fifty million. I think those are the 208 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: numbers you're probably talking about, so I could go one 209 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: by one. I try not to say what's not gonna 210 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: happen because nobody's gonna Guys are gonna call it. You say, hey, 211 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: Marsham said they're not gonna end up on Fox. I 212 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: will say I don't think they will end up on Fox. 213 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 1: Let's let's be the cheap deal. Fox already has baseball, 214 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: they already paying baseball. They like their a situation. They've 215 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: been offered Sunday Night in the past, they haven't gone 216 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 1: for it. Could someone like NBC with their Sunday Night 217 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: they have Sunday Night football, they have Sunday Night basketball. 218 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: Could they do a package? Yeah, but you don't have 219 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: all like what happens is September. You're not on broadcast 220 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: TV at that point because they have football. So you 221 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: go to Peacock. Does that Does that solve what Manford 222 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 1: said in his memo in terms of we want broader distribution, 223 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: So your most important Sunday primetime games are possibly on Peacock. 224 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: I don't see that. You know, CBS maybe is you know, 225 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: it could be a new entry, but I tend to 226 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: doubt it. Again, I'm not gonna rule any out, but 227 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: when I don't think so, and so you get to the streamers, 228 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: I think Amazon's the one everyone points too, but they 229 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: don't look at themselves as we're dying to get in. 230 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: They they are very strategic, very smart. And then Apple 231 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: that hasn't been a success. Like I people, Apple's not 232 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: as broadly distributed in terms of Apple TV Plus, and 233 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: so I don't know if I don't foresee them doing 234 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: a bigger deal with Apple, I don't think that has 235 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: gone well. And so it's not obvious who it could be. 236 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: I mean, there's Netflix, there's Google YouTube. I will say 237 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: that I would be a little bit like I'm not 238 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: gonna say one hundred percent, but I feel like if 239 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 1: they had somebody, we might have already heard about it. 240 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 1: That's very possible. Again, we have to see. Yeah, you 241 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:48,880 Speaker 1: gotta let it play out. You gotta give Manford and 242 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: Noah Garden a chance to show that there's other outlets 243 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: out there. But again I said seven years ago, or 244 00:12:57,480 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: actually twenty twenty one, not seven years ago twenty twenty 245 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: one and they had to go with ESPN. Then they 246 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: were stuck with Roku and they did the Apple deal. 247 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: So maybe someone emerges. I just don't think it's obvious. 248 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: Again they can have another partner. I mean, there are 249 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people. Baseball is great, people want to 250 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 1: be involved with baseball, the money, the distribution channels. Do 251 00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: they have something better than what ESPN should has and 252 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 1: they should be an ESPN. It's pretty obvious that's where 253 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: they should. That's the deal they should be making, is 254 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: how do we make this work with ESPN? And even 255 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: if it's less money, because yes, they're mad that they 256 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: loaded it last time they loaded this time, but you can't. 257 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: That's how you run a league being mad. You gotta 258 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: do it. You know what's in front of you. 259 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 2: Right ESPN, even though they don't talk about baseball, it 260 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 2: is still good to be in business with them. The 261 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,679 Speaker 2: way that they do promote what they have in their inventory. Also, 262 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 2: they do have a new streaming platform with Andrews been 263 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 2: all over this story which is coming out soon, and 264 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 2: that direct to consumer platform obviously could use the inventory. 265 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 2: Maybe they could talk them into some studio shows stuff 266 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 2: like that that would please them on that side. We 267 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 2: know this is about money. So here's my next one 268 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 2: for you, Andrew might be my last one. How do 269 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 2: you compare the way that MLB has handled the media 270 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 2: side of things versus the other sports that you cover 271 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 2: in terms of are they doing a good job or not? 272 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: And I'm broadening it beyond just media rights because I 273 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 2: can give some insight on things that a lot of 274 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 2: creators and just fans look for. They're by far the 275 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: most strict league when it comes to rights on places 276 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 2: like YouTube. They are so damn strict. There were stories 277 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 2: out about hockey. MLB is ten times more strict than 278 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 2: hockey has ever been on being able to use a 279 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 2: single slice of anything. NBA took the complete opposite route 280 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 2: about ten years ago. Right, they're on a million different 281 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 2: streaming platforms saying oh, we're testing things out. No, you're 282 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 2: trying to take a quick buck, and it actually ended 283 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 2: up screwing you over. So I can go on and 284 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 2: on about this. Obviously, I've disagreed on a lot of 285 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 2: things and ended up saying, hey, I think they're missing 286 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 2: something on the talk show side too. But curious to 287 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 2: get your take on how they compare to people like 288 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 2: Adam Silver and his decisions and I know, different product, 289 00:14:58,520 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: but also rather. 290 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: I think you have to start there. Yeah, I think so, 291 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: I do think you have to start there. The NFL 292 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: is the king because they have the best TV sports, 293 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: and so it is easier to make great deals when 294 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: you have a sport that has something that the word 295 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: that I want to use here is scarcity. And now 296 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: the NFL keeps like making you more Netflix games and 297 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: Amazon games and so. But the one thing that really 298 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: helps the NFL is even though they've expanded the season 299 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: of seventeen games, they have scarcity. The NBA what they 300 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: just did, and they did a masterful job. So if 301 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: you ask me who's done the best job, Adam Silver 302 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: has done the best job. In the last cycle, he 303 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: got seventy six billion dollars. He got more money from 304 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: NBC than NBC pays the NFL and the NFL. NBC 305 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: has Super Bowls, they only have half the Western Conference 306 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: over their eleven years half you know, six games, six 307 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: Western Conference finals, no finals. He got more money from Amazon, 308 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: he got similar to the NFL from ESPN, and so 309 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: he's done the best job. Baseball's national and regional now 310 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: is a very difficult dilemma. If I were them, that 311 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: the word I use before scarcity, I would try to 312 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: figure out a way to devise packages where I create 313 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: marquee events. So maybe it's Fox with ten marquee events 314 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: during the regular season opening day, you have a triple 315 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: header double header on Big Fox. Uh, and that's it 316 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 1: standalone doubleheader. You have the All Star Game. Fox has 317 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,800 Speaker 1: they did the Field of Dreams Classic, Maybe do one 318 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: or two of those. Maybe you in you know, in September. 319 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: They don't want it because they have college football, but 320 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: maybe you find a slot during the September the big 321 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: h you know, September run and then the playoffs and 322 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,840 Speaker 1: the words. So that's like one example. I could go 323 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: through other and you need to have you can't have 324 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: these fifty partners. You're a Yankee fan, Yes, Amazon, Apple, 325 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:13,360 Speaker 1: Roku is free, but Roku it might be TNT. You're 326 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: you tell you make it hard for people. Eventually they'll 327 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: give up, you know, the diehards of the dieards, they're 328 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: gonna find it. But there's there's not as many of 329 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: those people. They're listening probably to you because they're so 330 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 1: into it and and you guys have a You know, 331 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 1: you're global and you can reach a lot of people, 332 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: but when you talk about even the Yankees, it just 333 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: you I know what I've heard what the numbers are 334 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: for an Apple game. You know, people just will say, 335 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 1: you know, I don't have Apple. It's it's a hassle 336 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: and it annoys people. They got to figure out a 337 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: way that it's easy. They understand, like I think they 338 00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: get a bad rap on the blackout problem. They know 339 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: they want to get rid of the blackouts us just 340 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,719 Speaker 1: there's contracts that they can't just break. But so they 341 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: understand that issue and I think they desperately want to 342 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: fix it. But they that's what they have to figure 343 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,719 Speaker 1: out is how to present the game and so they 344 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,199 Speaker 1: can maximize their money and they can grow it. And 345 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: I think, you know, it's a combination of distribution, so broadcast, 346 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: you can argue some of the new streamers, but they're 347 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: not there yet. For not marquee events. People aren't finding 348 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 1: those things in terms of the casual fan and you 349 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: get the diearchs. Yes, and so they so answer your question, 350 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: they haven't done a great job. They've done a bad 351 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 1: job for sure, But I also don't think that their 352 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: hand is as good as some of the other sports. 353 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: That's fair. 354 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 2: Last thing, last point here, as far as I know, 355 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 2: they held some streaming rights hostage because there was obviously 356 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 2: a relationship with many of these rs ns and they 357 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 2: were like, well, you have to pay us a lot 358 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 2: more for that right, which okay, I get it, but 359 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 2: those didn't get sold elsewhere, and then it just screws 360 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 2: over the fan and then you miss out on people 361 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 2: like me who consume content very differently. So that was 362 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 2: a part also that I felt lost with for a 363 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 2: ten year span. I'm like, this just doesn't add up. 364 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: Well. I think another thing that now all the sports, 365 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: all the leagues, and all the networks are doing, you 366 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: can't just chase old money. They had a great system 367 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: with the RSN, and if you're just chasing old money, 368 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,159 Speaker 1: you're gonna get in trouble if you ask me. The 369 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: reason I think ESPN makes a lot of sense is 370 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: ESPN's gonna go DTC, which means you won't need cable 371 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: in August. They're probably gonna charge twenty five to thirty dollars. 372 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: So if you're someone who doesn't want cable you want 373 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: to lay They have about one third of the big 374 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: sports and they have a lot, but they don't have everything. 375 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: If I'm major League Baseball, I want to be part 376 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,960 Speaker 1: of that, and you charge either somewhere between five and 377 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: ten dollars extra per month, because I think you can 378 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: get people to pay five or ten dollars and I 379 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: do these deals. I wouldn't try to get a check. 380 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's I would try to get 381 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: the best distribution and then charge five to ten dollars 382 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 1: if you can, and I get it. They want to 383 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: now they just price it twenty four and ninety nine 384 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 1: or even twenty nine to ninety nine for these monthly 385 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: packages that we don't see. The numbers I can't imagine, 386 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 1: and that many people are getting it because you first 387 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: have to not already have cable, because so you don't 388 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,439 Speaker 1: like your teams enough to have to have cable. So 389 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: then you're saying, Okay, I don't like them enough, so 390 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:13,159 Speaker 1: I don't have cable, so I'm not watching them now 391 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go watch them. And it's almost thirty bucks. 392 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 1: I don't think people are doing that. Doesn't it's like 393 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 1: it's not it's illogical. You have to get that price 394 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: point lower, you know, obviously Manford totally would like to 395 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: have all the teams under one streaming service, which does 396 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: make some sense. But again, are you getting the casual 397 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,479 Speaker 1: fan because you have to bring them in. So it's 398 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: a complicated equation. But they really haven't been smart about it. 399 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 1: So to answer your question, you know what, they do 400 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: have a pad hand, but they've been bad. 401 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, obviously I'm frustrated about it because I 402 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 2: hear from people and I'm a consumer. But just one 403 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 2: more to pile on here. So they take over the Twins, 404 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 2: for example, they've taken over other teams too. What's the 405 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 2: first thing that happens that gets buried in a press release? 406 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 2: On the road, no more pregame shows on the road, 407 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 2: postgame shows cut from thirty to fifteen. Now, that hurts 408 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 2: your audience retention. And you're just saying, hey, we're gonna 409 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,719 Speaker 2: throw some generic league sponsored stuff at you. That's not 410 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 2: what fans want. That's the stuff that bothers me Andrews. 411 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:10,479 Speaker 2: So anyway, appreciate it. 412 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, you got last word, you know, quality and also 413 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 1: it's it's connecting with your fans. I mean, you have 414 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: a better opportunity to do that than ever before. So 415 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: I think we're on the same page. It'll be uh 416 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: maybe I'll come back after they uh finally get to 417 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: uh the next move, and we'll it'll be interesting to 418 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 1: see what that is. 419 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's see what that looks like, because they are 420 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 2: obviously calling out ESPN. They think they've got better or 421 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 2: at least something else in hand. So, Andrew, this was great, 422 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 2: wanted to dive into this. Thanks for jumping on pretty 423 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 2: quick and on the way out. Let everyone know how 424 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 2: much you Obviously I've been listening to you, you know, 425 00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 2: back when you did the pod with with orand and 426 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 2: obviously catch everything you do on here as well. 427 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, Andrewmarshan dot com is where you subscribe you can listen. 428 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: We talked about this topic both on Tuesday and Thursday. 429 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 1: The next Tuesday, I think it's gonna be the lead again, 430 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: so we talk about that a lot. And then also 431 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: of course The Athletic, where I am honored to be 432 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: teammates with the great Ken Rosenthal, so you can read 433 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: me there all the time as well. 434 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly more in The Athletic and more on Andrewmasha 435 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 2: dot com. Andrew, thank you, have a good week. 436 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: Imm great. Thanks Phels