WEBVTT - Slaying the Trolls with Nefertiti Walker and David Berri 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:03.040 Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're knee 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:06.519 deep in Sangria, croquettas and patatas bravs. 0:00:07.040 --> 0:00:08.959 That's right, we're topis over here. 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:11.600 It's Monday, November eighteenth, and while Alex and I are 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:14.320 getting settled in Spain for the VJK Cup, we're focusing 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:14.840 the show on. 0:00:14.800 --> 0:00:16.759 An interview with the authors of the books. 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:19.599 Slaying the Trolls, Why the Trolls are very very wrong 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:22.919 about women in Sports, the Great Nefert, D Walker, and 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:25.479 David Barry. Before the interview, I want to tread you 0:00:25.560 --> 0:00:27.520 the blurb I wrote for this book, and I think 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:29.360 this book might be a very useful tool in the 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:31.720 arsenal of all use slices out there fighting the good fight. 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:33.440 So here you go. I wrote. 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:35.760 It can be difficult to move on from said ideas, 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:39.000 stereotypes and talking points if we aren't fully educated on 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:41.160 how we arrived at them and how things have changed, 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:43.360 which is why a book like this is so important. 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:46.920 Centuries of societal bias have created heuristics around women's sports 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:50.640 that are not only inaccurate and harmful to female athletes, leagues, 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:52.960 and fans of women's sport, but They also keep people 0:00:52.960 --> 0:00:55.480 from making a lot of money off a very viable product. 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:58.120 In no other business do we reject or refuse to 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:01.680 capitalize on multimillion dollar profit and rocket ship growth. We 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.120 do that in women's sports, not just due to ignorance, 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:06.959 but because of an unequal and unfair system that was 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.319 actually built with intention. The authors recognize all the ways 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:12.399 women's sports have been held back, and they see the 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:17.120 incredible growth and profit that could happen if we actually invested, supported, watched, 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:20.160 and understood the product. This book will not only slay 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:23.959 the trolls, but educate the masses, and Nef and David 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:33.000 will educate us all. Coming up next, it's time for 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:35.400 another group chat where we take the t from the 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:37.240 text and put it on the airwaves. 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:37.840 Joining us. 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:40.800 She's the Deputy VP for Academic Affairs Student Affairs at 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:44.120 Equity for the University of Massachusetts, a tenured full professor 0:01:44.160 --> 0:01:46.640 in the Department of Sport Management, and a social scientist 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:49.800 who studies organizational culture. She's a Research Fellow with the 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:52.640 North American Society for Sport Management, signifying the top ten 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:55.960 percent of researchers in her field. A former NCAAD one 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:59.000 basketball player, at Georgia Tech and Stetson and was inducted 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:00.800 into the Stetson UA Hall of Fame. 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:02.880 It's Nef for TD Walker. What's up, Nef? 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:05.760 How are you? Sarah? Good to be here, Thanks for having. 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:08.000 Me, Thanks for coming on joining her. 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:11.080 He's a professor of economics at Southern Utah University who 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:13.840 has spent the last two decades researching sports and economics. 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:15.600 He's the lead author of the books The Wages of 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:19.119 Wins and Stumbling On Wins, the sole author of Sports Economics, 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:21.600 and a co author of the Economics of the Super Bowl. 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:23.160 He's been part of more than eighty. 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:25.560 Academic papers published on the subject of sports economics, and 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:28.000 has written for a number of popular outlets, including The 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:30.839 New York Times, The Atlantic, Time, dot Com, Forbes, and more. 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:32.680 It's David Barry, what's up, David? 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:35.839 What's up with you? Sarah? Thanks for having me. 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.280 You know, living the dream is what I tell myself 0:02:39.280 --> 0:02:40.920 every day. It's got to be somebody's dream. 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:41.680 Uh. 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:43.160 Thank you both for coming on. 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:45.720 They are the co authors of the books Slaying the 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:48.760 Trolls Why the Trolls Are Very Very Wrong About Women 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:52.320 and Sports, which provides the arguments and the empirical evidence 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:55.600 to demonstrate why responding to women sports news with nobody. 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:57.519 Cares couldn't be further from the truth. 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:00.400 The book gives folks the evidence and in photo back 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:04.000 against outdated sexism and help support the current push for equity, 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:10.239 investment and respect in women's sports. This book is so needed, Unfortunately, 0:03:10.440 --> 0:03:13.000 more so every day it feels as women's sports is 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:15.040 going in one direction and the trolls continue to push 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:17.640 in another. So nef tell me how this book came together. 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:22.520 Oh gosh, So First, Dave is a really fast writer. 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:26.880 I am not so much. But the book started because 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:31.919 Dave and I colleagues writing together doing research together, essentially 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:35.040 got tired of going on what was then Twitter now 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:39.280 x and seeing these trolls make really ridiculous comments, not 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:44.640 fact based comments, based on their small opinions about women's sports, 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:47.080 and you know, we would go back and forth and 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:49.000 text about it, we would talk about it when we 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.120 saw each other. We're writing papers, we're talking about it, 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.120 and we just sort of got fed up and was like, Okay, 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.000 what can we do about this. The timing was such 0:03:57.040 --> 0:03:59.480 that it was I believe twenty eighteen when we first 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:03.400 began discussing the idea of this book, and then we 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:07.360 started writing. We started, you know, meeting basically weekly and 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:10.320 just talking about what we saw that week on Twitter, 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:13.960 following folks like you and your other colleagues, Jamil Hill 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:16.080 and others, and seeing the ways that you were wasting 0:04:16.120 --> 0:04:19.920 a lot of your very valuable time trying to not 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:22.240 only you know, call out the trolls, but also provide 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:24.640 some facts so that you're educating people along the way. 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.200 And we just thought to ourselves, why are they, like 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:29.520 they need to be doing the really good work that 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:31.680 they do, Why are they wasting their time with these trolls. 0:04:31.720 --> 0:04:33.440 Can we do something to provide some. 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:37.680 Tools for folks to be able to respond to trolls 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.159 or at least just have more educated conversations about women's 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.159 sports in general. So that's really that was really the 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:44.280 genesis of this book. 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:47.320 Yeah, it does feel like such a waste of time. 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:49.279 And then on the other hand, I think what we're 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:52.919 seeing more often now is when research, which is what 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:56.799 you guys focus in, comes up against ignorance, there isn't 0:04:56.839 --> 0:05:00.760 a great way for people to fully comprehend or vet 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.919 which side is being accurate, right, Like you could go 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:06.520 to someone's bio and see if maybe it tells you 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:09.640 something about their expertise and their background and say, well, 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:11.919 this person probably knows better. But we're also seeing some 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:15.960 pretty disingenuous people in high places who are feeding misinformation 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:18.720 with intent. And that is true of things all the 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:21.000 way up to the presidential race, all the way down 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:24.000 to things that are just entertaining for us or sports 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:26.680 right in the middle there. And if I think part 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:29.359 of that is why you do find folks in my 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.120 position or Jamel or many others in the business who say, 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:36.160 somebody has to inform, even if a lot of people 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:39.000 aren't going to pay attention or going to notice, somebody 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:41.040 has to inform with actual facts. And I imagine as 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:44.080 someone whose job is research, it's all the more frustrating 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:47.600 when someone who looks to be or for all intensive 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:50.360 purposes is on equal footing in a space like X 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:54.120 can say something that's absolutely false and there's no repercussions, 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:57.520 there's no accountability, it doesn't really matter. So how did 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:01.400 you decide which things people were saying or which arguments 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:04.240 people most often came with that you wanted to address 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:04.680 in the book. 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:10.120 So you're exactly right, it's frustrating when you see people 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:12.960 say these things that aren't rooted in parical research are 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:17.839 just sometimes common sense. They say it to infuriate folks 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:21.919 that are deeply involved in women's sports, and it's you know, 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.560 it's frustrating. So part of the reason, and I give 0:06:24.600 --> 0:06:26.840 all credit to Dave. The reason why we wrote this 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:28.680 book the way we did is because we wanted it 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:30.920 to be interesting to people, but we also wanted it 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:33.720 to be able to be read at essentially a fifth 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:35.560 grade level. If you go to Amazon, it says this 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:37.479 book is you can it's a fifth grade level. Like, 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:40.240 we didn't write it for academics. There's research in there, 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:42.479 but we try to put it in playing terms, and 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:44.880 we wanted it to be as accessible as possible. So 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.840 I think that was really sort of our way of 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:49.960 making sure that folks who needed to read this book 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:51.640 and were interested in it could I think, in addition 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:53.480 to your question that you asked to get back to 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:55.800 that it was hard choosing. I mean, you see, the 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.920 book is twenty chapters, right, like, it was very difficult 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:01.680 for us to choose which stories to write on. And 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:05.400 I think also because I am a painfully slow writer, 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.360 we just it took so long that we kept adding stories, right, 0:07:09.360 --> 0:07:11.960 I mean weekly, Dave and I are meeting and Dave's like, oh, 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:13.640 this just happened. We have to put it in the book, 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:15.920 and I'm like, we don't have space, but we do. 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:19.560 So we didn't really cut out a whole lot. We 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:21.280 tried to add all of the stories in there. We 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:23.120 tried to force them in there, but at the end 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:25.600 of the day, it was whatever what was most relevant. 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:28.400 What we saw on X that people were the stories 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.160 that people were sharing that were false, that was rooted 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:33.440 in data and empirical research that we had access to. 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:35.880 We prioritize those so that we could tell really good 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.239 stories that were interesting, but also stories that were rooted 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:39.960 in literature and research. 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:43.640 Yeah, Dave, you've been fighting this fight for quite some time. 0:07:43.760 --> 0:07:47.040 You've been alongside me and Jamelle and others on the 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.600 Internet attempting to use facts and research to talk back 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:54.040 to people who are trying to spread lies. How difficult 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:59.040 was it to take that mindset of combativeness and marry 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:03.920 it with your professorial research side that is probably wanting 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:06.040 to get more into sort of empirical data. How do 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:08.360 you find that balance, Like NEF just said of like 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:10.120 getting the information to people in a way that they'll 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:12.520 understand it, but also knowing how much it matters to 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:14.880 be able to back that with saying this is facts, 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:17.440 this is true, this is not subjective opinion. 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:21.040 Well, I think the advantage I had as an academic 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:25.160 is when my first book came out, I was asked 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.480 to write for places like The New York Times, and 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:32.319 I had editors sit me down and I would write 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:35.440 something and they would say, okay, that nobody knows what 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:37.800 the hell you're talking about. You can't say it that way. 0:08:38.440 --> 0:08:40.480 I had a New York Times editor tell me once, 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:43.240 you can't use the word standard deviation. No one knows 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:43.960 what that means. 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:46.000 We all learned it, do we all remember? 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:49.480 Yeah? No, and so, and you know. I had a 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.520 radio host once get very irate because I dare to 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:56.480 use the word econometrics on air. They were very mad 0:08:56.520 --> 0:09:00.360 about that. They're like, don't say words like that. Rather 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.120 have you swear and have our license revoked, rather than 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:05.840 have you say things and lose all our audience. So 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:11.360 I was taught how to write things by by very 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:14.720 patient editors, and they said, you know, you got it. 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:17.160 You can't write these things like journal articles or not. 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:20.720 People don't read things like that. So you learn to 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:24.160 write things in a way that is accessible. And so 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:26.240 because the objective is what we're trying to do is 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:28.360 we're trying to reach out to the fans of women's 0:09:28.360 --> 0:09:31.959 sports who who It just feels when you're on social 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:35.560 media and they're debating with the trolls, like there's this 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:38.320 this level of frustration. It's like, I don't I know 0:09:38.360 --> 0:09:41.719 you're wrong, but I don't have the data and I 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:44.120 don't have the research. It says, hey, you're wrong. I 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:47.080 just know you're wrong. And so what NEPH and I 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:50.160 are doing is saying, hey, this is this is how 0:09:50.200 --> 0:09:52.400 you say that, This is how you respond to that 0:09:52.520 --> 0:09:56.679 they say this, but this is why they're wrong, and 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:58.480 this is how you can respond to them in a 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:02.119 way that other people can under because really, you're probably 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:07.160 not going to convert the trolls. That is unrealistic. We don't. 0:10:07.440 --> 0:10:09.960 It's not called the book isn't called converting the trolls. 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:16.079 It's called we don't Convert them. But it's for it's 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:18.160 for the fan of women's sports, and then for the 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.880 people who don't really know who's right, and then you 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:24.160 can say, hey, look look at it this way. Now 0:10:24.160 --> 0:10:26.600 do you understand why that person is wrong? And that's 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:27.880 kind of where we're going with this. 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:31.160 That's exactly what I always tell people when they ask 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.160 me how I decide to engage on social media. I 0:10:34.240 --> 0:10:37.079 often say, I wait until there's a bunch of people 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:38.840 saying the same uninformed thing. 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:39.600 I pick one. 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:41.720 I use them as an example to be able to 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.080 shout down whatever they're saying that's wrong headed, with no 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:48.000 intention usually of expecting them to change their opinion. But 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:51.680 for everybody in the middle, who's maybe not even posting anything, 0:10:51.720 --> 0:10:54.040 but they're all reading it to see, oh, that's a 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:57.040 great point, that's actually right, that's wrong. And I've had 0:10:57.080 --> 0:10:58.880 a lot of people over the years say, I have 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:01.200 to tell you, when you first started at ESPN one thousand, 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:03.400 ten years ago, I thought X and Y. But I 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.400 started following you and I read this, and I see this, 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:07.360 and I hear this, and now I get it, and 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:08.360 that's the intent here. 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:10.320 So you're right, it's not really about converting the trolls 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:10.680 so much. 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:12.800 As it is about informing the people who know they're 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:14.600 wrong and want to have the facts to back it up. 0:11:14.760 --> 0:11:16.760 And also everybody in the middle that maybe doesn't know 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.240 and hasn't looked into it, who now gets this information 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:21.720 that helps them potentially be more interested in women's sports 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.439 at the very least, not believe the BS stuff that's 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:26.360 coming out of the other side. Now, if I heard 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:30.000 you describe in an interview this book as sas you 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:33.120 said of the trolls, they don't deserve our calm and 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:34.320 welcoming demeanor. 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.520 They deserve a bit of sassiness. I couldn't agree more. 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:40.440 Was it clear from the beginning for both of you 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:41.920 that that's the tone you wanted? 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:43.440 And how does Nef's. 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:46.200 SaaS and Dave's sas meet in the middle so that 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:48.800 there's a through line in the actual composing of the book. 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:53.600 Yeah, that's where the fun happened, right, trying to combine 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:57.520 our sassiness. But really, honestly, the book, if you read it, 0:11:57.640 --> 0:11:59.960 and if you know Dave, the book is really right, 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.360 and in Dave's voice, right, I mean, we got together 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:05.000 and we began writing together, and you know, sometimes we 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:08.120 would actually literally write as we're meeting. Oftentimes we would 0:12:08.120 --> 0:12:10.079 write pieces of the book and then come together put 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:12.040 it together and then sort of talk through it. But 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:13.600 at the end of the day, what we notice is 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:18.480 that my writing was very much so academic focused, and 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.679 I had a very difficult time transitioning from the academic 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:25.560 style of writing to writing for a trade book, writing 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:28.040 for a general audience, and writing, you know, essentially at 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:31.200 a fifth grade level. Eventually I got it. But what 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:33.480 we decided is that we needed to write it in 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:35.400 one voice. If we wrote it in both of our voices, 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:39.760 it would be confusing. It was disjointed. So the sassiness. 0:12:39.920 --> 0:12:42.720 Dave is sassy if you've met Dave in person, if 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.000 you talk to Dave, if you see him on X, he. 0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:46.560 Is sassy in general. 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:49.480 So the sassiness came from that, and then I'm far 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:52.760 less sassy. But these people are so irritating that I 0:12:52.880 --> 0:12:55.960 found my inner sassiness and brought it out. So yeah, 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:58.319 at the end of the day, you know, again watching 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.800 folks like you and Jamil respond to these people and 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:03.840 many others. Right, I use you into as an example, 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:05.480 but there are many others that are out there just 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:08.160 trying to do their job in the media and waste 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:11.680 in almost all women, wasting their time that could be 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:15.160 spent doing other important things responding to these people and. 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:17.080 Doing it nicely, right, And I'm like, no, we don't 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:18.800 have to be nice. This is in our field. We're 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.240 not in the media. It doesn't matter what we say. 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:24.640 We're academics, you know, we go back to our caves 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.959 and right, like, we can be sassy in the public 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:29.559 eye and continue on with our lives. 0:13:29.559 --> 0:13:30.040 So why not. 0:13:30.240 --> 0:13:33.880 And again, I don't think these folks deserve our calm 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:37.080 or a welcomness because they're not being genuine in their 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:38.920 responses when they're being trolls. 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:41.920 I think sassy's the perfect word, though, because if you 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:46.120 start to become cruel or dismissive, your message is lost 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:48.960 because it's easier than to fight the attitude you're bringing 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:52.560 instead of the information you're bringing. So the sassiness says, listen, 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:54.920 we're tired of your bullshit and here's the real facts 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:58.240 versus cruelty, which this just then adds to this sort 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:02.440 of schism when nobody seeks to find common ground and 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:05.800 to meet over the information, it's just about pushing the 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:08.199 other side away. So I think SAS's like the perfect word, 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:09.959 and that's what I aim for. I've had plenty of 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:11.520 people reach out to me who are up and coming 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:13.439 in the business and say, should I worry about getting 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:15.959 hired if I clap back occasionally to trolls, And I 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:19.400 always say, as long as you are not cruel and 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:22.000 you are civil and the information that you're providing or 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.120 the way you're clapping back is either just funny about 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:25.960 grammar or spelling, because that is always a go to 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:29.080 for me if somebody's coming after me or if it's informed, 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.840 you're fine, just don't sync down to their level. We 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:34.760 got to take a quick break more with Neph and 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:42.360 Dave coming up. You know, Dave, you came on my 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:44.920 old podcast. I've been following you for years. I learned 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:48.120 a ton about how to see the women's pro sports 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:50.560 space through an academic lens, in part because of the 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:53.880 research that you would share and the important historical context 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:55.520 that you would bring in. Some of your most compelling 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:58.400 and important work I think is helping folks learn the 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:01.920 realities of men's leagues at their inception, years before many 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:04.640 of us were ever alive. Can you share what might 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:08.160 be some surprising realities around, for instance, the NBA's lean 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:10.800 early years, and how you can use information like that 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.640 to help people understand why their opinions on women's sports 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:14.720 are not correct. 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:16.160 Yeah. 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:18.720 Sure, yeah, let's let's start with the NBA. I think 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:21.200 the NBA. Most people don't know the story of the NBA. 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:27.040 It starts in the in the forties. It is college 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:31.360 men's basketball had been around for decades, had been was very, 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:36.520 very popular. It had a huge audience, and naturally people thought, hey, 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:40.600 let's take those same exact athletes, put them on professional teams, 0:15:40.640 --> 0:15:44.040 and we'll sell tickets. And they did that, and they 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:47.000 did not there were no tickets to be sold, and 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:53.160 they tried lots of things early in NBA history. They 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:57.040 would they would schedule NBA games after high school games. 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:00.760 You came to watch your kid watch a professional. Bob 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:03.640 Goosey tells the story that when he was originally drafted, 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:05.720 not by the Celtics, he was drafted by the Tri 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:09.720 City Hawks. He's like, I did major geography at holy Cross, 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:10.920 but I knew there was no such thing as a 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:14.800 tri City Well, they couldn't get an audience in one city, 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:17.560 so they put in three cities, and so they all, 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:20.880 maybe if we run around, we'll find some audience. They 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:23.960 had an early memo from the Commission. In the first 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:27.080 you know, five or six years of the NBA, it says, hey, 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:29.480 some of you are telling the media how many people 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:32.600 are actually showing up to these games. Well, don't do that. 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:36.000 You are free to pad the numbers, you know, you 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.720 don't have to tell the truth. And so that's where 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:42.320 the NBA starts. And we know from Congressional testimony because 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:46.760 Congress investigated professional sports in the fifties men's professional sports. 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:50.120 The NBA at that point in today's dollars was worth 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:54.640 about fifteen million. So the WNBA is worth hundreds of millions. 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:58.280 They were worth fifteen million. They were incredibly tighty. If 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:02.200 you get up to nineteen seventy seventy two, that's when 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:05.159 the NBA is the same age as the WNBA, same age. 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:10.960 Their revenue in the late sixties early seventies jumps from 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:15.120 one hundred million to two hundred million. The WNBA's revenue 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:17.560 from twenty nineteen to twenty twenty three jump from one 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.560 hundred million to two hundred million, exactly the same thing. 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:24.639 There was. There is a really big difference. The NBA 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:28.240 at that point was paying Kareem Abdul Jabbar four hundred 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:31.440 thousand dollars a year in nineteen seventy three. Nobody that 0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:33.840 of NBA is making four hundred thousand dollars a year now, 0:17:34.760 --> 0:17:37.439 So there is a huge difference in wages, but in 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:40.240 terms of revenue, terms of attendance, in terms of how 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:43.760 much people are paying attention to this, the NBA and 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:48.400 the WNBA are following essentially the same path. They are 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:51.719 adding fans just like you'd expect it. It just takes 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:55.960 decades to build a fan base. Most people are born 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:59.800 into their fandom. You don't. You don't become a rabbit 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:02.760 fan of a lot of things as an adult. It's 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:05.840 basically it's an addiction. So the way to think about 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.720 it is, imagine all the people you know who at 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:12.000 the age of forty took up smoking cigarettes. That's a 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.159 bizarre thing to do, right, That would be bizarre. That's 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:17.520 what a fandom is, right. You know, if you're forty 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.200 years old, you're not going to suddenly say, hey, I'm 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:21.800 going to be a fan of this sport I've never 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:25.120 watched before. That's not realistic. You do it as a child, 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:27.040 do you pick it up from your parents and your 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:31.240 friends and your relatives, and it grows gradually as that 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:35.159 network gets bigger and bigger, and so everyone investing in 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:37.960 a women's sports league, whether it's National Women's Soccer League 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:42.040 or the WNBA, should expect this will take decades, but 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:45.720 eventually fans will get addicted and then you'll have the 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:50.120 greatest business ever imaginable, because there is no business like sports. 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:54.080 Sports is a business that you can disappoint your fans 0:18:54.880 --> 0:19:00.520 every single year and they never go away. Right, Chicago 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:02.640 Bears fan, you know this, Yeah, we. 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:06.280 Talked about this before. You use the restaurant example. Being 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:08.440 a Chicago Bears fan is like going to the same 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:10.719 restaurant over and over and they serve you like a 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.159 plate of shit, and you're like, thank you, I'll be 0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:13.920 back next week. 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:18.960 Yes, yes, And and then you get convinced of this. 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.480 You go to the owner and the owner says, I 0:19:21.600 --> 0:19:24.880 understand that this food has been crap for so long. 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:27.600 But here's what I did. I got a new bus boy, 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:30.600