1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're knee 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,519 Speaker 1: deep in Sangria, croquettas and patatas bravs. 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 2: That's right, we're topis over here. 4 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: It's Monday, November eighteenth, and while Alex and I are 5 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: getting settled in Spain for the VJK Cup, we're focusing 6 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: the show on. 7 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 2: An interview with the authors of the books. 8 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 1: Slaying the Trolls, Why the Trolls are very very wrong 9 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: about women in Sports, the Great Nefert, D Walker, and 10 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: David Barry. Before the interview, I want to tread you 11 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: the blurb I wrote for this book, and I think 12 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: this book might be a very useful tool in the 13 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: arsenal of all use slices out there fighting the good fight. 14 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 2: So here you go. I wrote. 15 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: It can be difficult to move on from said ideas, 16 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: stereotypes and talking points if we aren't fully educated on 17 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 1: how we arrived at them and how things have changed, 18 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: which is why a book like this is so important. 19 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,920 Speaker 1: Centuries of societal bias have created heuristics around women's sports 20 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: that are not only inaccurate and harmful to female athletes, leagues, 21 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: and fans of women's sport, but They also keep people 22 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: from making a lot of money off a very viable product. 23 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: In no other business do we reject or refuse to 24 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: capitalize on multimillion dollar profit and rocket ship growth. We 25 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: do that in women's sports, not just due to ignorance, 26 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:06,959 Speaker 1: but because of an unequal and unfair system that was 27 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: actually built with intention. The authors recognize all the ways 28 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: women's sports have been held back, and they see the 29 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: incredible growth and profit that could happen if we actually invested, supported, watched, 30 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: and understood the product. This book will not only slay 31 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: the trolls, but educate the masses, and Nef and David 32 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: will educate us all. Coming up next, it's time for 33 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: another group chat where we take the t from the 34 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: text and put it on the airwaves. 35 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 2: Joining us. 36 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: She's the Deputy VP for Academic Affairs Student Affairs at 37 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: Equity for the University of Massachusetts, a tenured full professor 38 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: in the Department of Sport Management, and a social scientist 39 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: who studies organizational culture. She's a Research Fellow with the 40 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: North American Society for Sport Management, signifying the top ten 41 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: percent of researchers in her field. A former NCAAD one 42 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: basketball player, at Georgia Tech and Stetson and was inducted 43 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: into the Stetson UA Hall of Fame. 44 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 2: It's Nef for TD Walker. What's up, Nef? 45 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 3: How are you? Sarah? Good to be here, Thanks for having. 46 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 2: Me, Thanks for coming on joining her. 47 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 1: He's a professor of economics at Southern Utah University who 48 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: has spent the last two decades researching sports and economics. 49 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: He's the lead author of the books The Wages of 50 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:19,119 Speaker 1: Wins and Stumbling On Wins, the sole author of Sports Economics, 51 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: and a co author of the Economics of the Super Bowl. 52 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 2: He's been part of more than eighty. 53 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: Academic papers published on the subject of sports economics, and 54 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: has written for a number of popular outlets, including The 55 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,839 Speaker 1: New York Times, The Atlantic, Time, dot Com, Forbes, and more. 56 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 2: It's David Barry, what's up, David? 57 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,839 Speaker 4: What's up with you? Sarah? Thanks for having me. 58 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 2: You know, living the dream is what I tell myself 59 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 2: every day. It's got to be somebody's dream. 60 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: Uh. 61 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: Thank you both for coming on. 62 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: They are the co authors of the books Slaying the 63 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: Trolls Why the Trolls Are Very Very Wrong About Women 64 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: and Sports, which provides the arguments and the empirical evidence 65 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: to demonstrate why responding to women sports news with nobody. 66 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 2: Cares couldn't be further from the truth. 67 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,400 Speaker 1: The book gives folks the evidence and in photo back 68 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: against outdated sexism and help support the current push for equity, 69 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:10,239 Speaker 1: investment and respect in women's sports. This book is so needed, Unfortunately, 70 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: more so every day it feels as women's sports is 71 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: going in one direction and the trolls continue to push 72 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: in another. So nef tell me how this book came together. 73 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 5: Oh gosh, So First, Dave is a really fast writer. 74 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 5: I am not so much. But the book started because 75 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 5: Dave and I colleagues writing together doing research together, essentially 76 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 5: got tired of going on what was then Twitter now 77 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 5: x and seeing these trolls make really ridiculous comments, not 78 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 5: fact based comments, based on their small opinions about women's sports, 79 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 5: and you know, we would go back and forth and 80 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 5: text about it, we would talk about it when we 81 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 5: saw each other. We're writing papers, we're talking about it, 82 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 5: and we just sort of got fed up and was like, Okay, 83 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 5: what can we do about this. The timing was such 84 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 5: that it was I believe twenty eighteen when we first 85 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 5: began discussing the idea of this book, and then we 86 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 5: started writing. We started, you know, meeting basically weekly and 87 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 5: just talking about what we saw that week on Twitter, 88 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 5: following folks like you and your other colleagues, Jamil Hill 89 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 5: and others, and seeing the ways that you were wasting 90 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 5: a lot of your very valuable time trying to not 91 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 5: only you know, call out the trolls, but also provide 92 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 5: some facts so that you're educating people along the way. 93 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 5: And we just thought to ourselves, why are they, like 94 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 5: they need to be doing the really good work that 95 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 5: they do, Why are they wasting their time with these trolls. 96 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 3: Can we do something to provide some. 97 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 5: Tools for folks to be able to respond to trolls 98 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 5: or at least just have more educated conversations about women's 99 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,159 Speaker 5: sports in general. So that's really that was really the 100 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:44,280 Speaker 5: genesis of this book. 101 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it does feel like such a waste of time. 102 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: And then on the other hand, I think what we're 103 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 1: seeing more often now is when research, which is what 104 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,799 Speaker 1: you guys focus in, comes up against ignorance, there isn't 105 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: a great way for people to fully comprehend or vet 106 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 1: which side is being accurate, right, Like you could go 107 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: to someone's bio and see if maybe it tells you 108 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: something about their expertise and their background and say, well, 109 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 1: this person probably knows better. But we're also seeing some 110 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: pretty disingenuous people in high places who are feeding misinformation 111 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: with intent. And that is true of things all the 112 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: way up to the presidential race, all the way down 113 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: to things that are just entertaining for us or sports 114 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: right in the middle there. And if I think part 115 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 1: of that is why you do find folks in my 116 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: position or Jamel or many others in the business who say, 117 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: somebody has to inform, even if a lot of people 118 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: aren't going to pay attention or going to notice, somebody 119 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: has to inform with actual facts. And I imagine as 120 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: someone whose job is research, it's all the more frustrating 121 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 1: when someone who looks to be or for all intensive 122 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: purposes is on equal footing in a space like X 123 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: can say something that's absolutely false and there's no repercussions, 124 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: there's no accountability, it doesn't really matter. So how did 125 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: you decide which things people were saying or which arguments 126 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: people most often came with that you wanted to address 127 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: in the book. 128 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 5: So you're exactly right, it's frustrating when you see people 129 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 5: say these things that aren't rooted in parical research are 130 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 5: just sometimes common sense. They say it to infuriate folks 131 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 5: that are deeply involved in women's sports, and it's you know, 132 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 5: it's frustrating. So part of the reason, and I give 133 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 5: all credit to Dave. The reason why we wrote this 134 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 5: book the way we did is because we wanted it 135 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 5: to be interesting to people, but we also wanted it 136 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,720 Speaker 5: to be able to be read at essentially a fifth 137 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 5: grade level. If you go to Amazon, it says this 138 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 5: book is you can it's a fifth grade level. Like, 139 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 5: we didn't write it for academics. There's research in there, 140 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:42,479 Speaker 5: but we try to put it in playing terms, and 141 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 5: we wanted it to be as accessible as possible. So 142 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 5: I think that was really sort of our way of 143 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 5: making sure that folks who needed to read this book 144 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 5: and were interested in it could I think, in addition 145 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 5: to your question that you asked to get back to 146 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 5: that it was hard choosing. I mean, you see, the 147 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 5: book is twenty chapters, right, like, it was very difficult 148 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 5: for us to choose which stories to write on. And 149 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 5: I think also because I am a painfully slow writer, 150 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 5: we just it took so long that we kept adding stories, right, 151 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 5: I mean weekly, Dave and I are meeting and Dave's like, oh, 152 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 5: this just happened. We have to put it in the book, 153 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 5: and I'm like, we don't have space, but we do. 154 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 5: So we didn't really cut out a whole lot. We 155 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 5: tried to add all of the stories in there. We 156 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 5: tried to force them in there, but at the end 157 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 5: of the day, it was whatever what was most relevant. 158 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 5: What we saw on X that people were the stories 159 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 5: that people were sharing that were false, that was rooted 160 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 5: in data and empirical research that we had access to. 161 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 5: We prioritize those so that we could tell really good 162 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,239 Speaker 5: stories that were interesting, but also stories that were rooted 163 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 5: in literature and research. 164 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, Dave, you've been fighting this fight for quite some time. 165 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 1: You've been alongside me and Jamelle and others on the 166 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: Internet attempting to use facts and research to talk back 167 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: to people who are trying to spread lies. How difficult 168 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: was it to take that mindset of combativeness and marry 169 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: it with your professorial research side that is probably wanting 170 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: to get more into sort of empirical data. How do 171 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,360 Speaker 1: you find that balance, Like NEF just said of like 172 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: getting the information to people in a way that they'll 173 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: understand it, but also knowing how much it matters to 174 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: be able to back that with saying this is facts, 175 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: this is true, this is not subjective opinion. 176 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 4: Well, I think the advantage I had as an academic 177 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 4: is when my first book came out, I was asked 178 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 4: to write for places like The New York Times, and 179 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 4: I had editors sit me down and I would write 180 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 4: something and they would say, okay, that nobody knows what 181 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 4: the hell you're talking about. You can't say it that way. 182 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 4: I had a New York Times editor tell me once, 183 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 4: you can't use the word standard deviation. No one knows 184 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:43,960 Speaker 4: what that means. 185 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: We all learned it, do we all remember? 186 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 4: Yeah? No, and so, and you know. I had a 187 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 4: radio host once get very irate because I dare to 188 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 4: use the word econometrics on air. They were very mad 189 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 4: about that. They're like, don't say words like that. Rather 190 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 4: have you swear and have our license revoked, rather than 191 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 4: have you say things and lose all our audience. So 192 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 4: I was taught how to write things by by very 193 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 4: patient editors, and they said, you know, you got it. 194 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 4: You can't write these things like journal articles or not. 195 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 4: People don't read things like that. So you learn to 196 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 4: write things in a way that is accessible. And so 197 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 4: because the objective is what we're trying to do is 198 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 4: we're trying to reach out to the fans of women's 199 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 4: sports who who It just feels when you're on social 200 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,560 Speaker 4: media and they're debating with the trolls, like there's this 201 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 4: this level of frustration. It's like, I don't I know 202 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,719 Speaker 4: you're wrong, but I don't have the data and I 203 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 4: don't have the research. It says, hey, you're wrong. I 204 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 4: just know you're wrong. And so what NEPH and I 205 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 4: are doing is saying, hey, this is this is how 206 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 4: you say that, This is how you respond to that 207 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 4: they say this, but this is why they're wrong, and 208 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 4: this is how you can respond to them in a 209 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:02,119 Speaker 4: way that other people can under because really, you're probably 210 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 4: not going to convert the trolls. That is unrealistic. We don't. 211 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 4: It's not called the book isn't called converting the trolls. 212 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 4: It's called we don't Convert them. But it's for it's 213 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 4: for the fan of women's sports, and then for the 214 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 4: people who don't really know who's right, and then you 215 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 4: can say, hey, look look at it this way. Now 216 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 4: do you understand why that person is wrong? And that's 217 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 4: kind of where we're going with this. 218 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: That's exactly what I always tell people when they ask 219 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: me how I decide to engage on social media. I 220 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,079 Speaker 1: often say, I wait until there's a bunch of people 221 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: saying the same uninformed thing. 222 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 2: I pick one. 223 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: I use them as an example to be able to 224 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: shout down whatever they're saying that's wrong headed, with no 225 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: intention usually of expecting them to change their opinion. But 226 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: for everybody in the middle, who's maybe not even posting anything, 227 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: but they're all reading it to see, oh, that's a 228 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: great point, that's actually right, that's wrong. And I've had 229 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: a lot of people over the years say, I have 230 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: to tell you, when you first started at ESPN one thousand, 231 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: ten years ago, I thought X and Y. But I 232 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: started following you and I read this, and I see this, 233 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: and I hear this, and now I get it, and 234 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: that's the intent here. 235 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 2: So you're right, it's not really about converting the trolls 236 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 2: so much. 237 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 1: As it is about informing the people who know they're 238 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: wrong and want to have the facts to back it up. 239 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: And also everybody in the middle that maybe doesn't know 240 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: and hasn't looked into it, who now gets this information 241 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: that helps them potentially be more interested in women's sports 242 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,439 Speaker 1: at the very least, not believe the BS stuff that's 243 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: coming out of the other side. Now, if I heard 244 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: you describe in an interview this book as sas you 245 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: said of the trolls, they don't deserve our calm and 246 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: welcoming demeanor. 247 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: They deserve a bit of sassiness. I couldn't agree more. 248 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: Was it clear from the beginning for both of you 249 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: that that's the tone you wanted? 250 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 2: And how does Nef's. 251 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: SaaS and Dave's sas meet in the middle so that 252 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: there's a through line in the actual composing of the book. 253 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's where the fun happened, right, trying to combine 254 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 5: our sassiness. But really, honestly, the book, if you read it, 255 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 5: and if you know Dave, the book is really right, 256 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 5: and in Dave's voice, right, I mean, we got together 257 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 5: and we began writing together, and you know, sometimes we 258 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 5: would actually literally write as we're meeting. Oftentimes we would 259 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,079 Speaker 5: write pieces of the book and then come together put 260 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 5: it together and then sort of talk through it. But 261 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 5: at the end of the day, what we notice is 262 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 5: that my writing was very much so academic focused, and 263 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 5: I had a very difficult time transitioning from the academic 264 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 5: style of writing to writing for a trade book, writing 265 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 5: for a general audience, and writing, you know, essentially at 266 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 5: a fifth grade level. Eventually I got it. But what 267 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 5: we decided is that we needed to write it in 268 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 5: one voice. If we wrote it in both of our voices, 269 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 5: it would be confusing. It was disjointed. So the sassiness. 270 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 5: Dave is sassy if you've met Dave in person, if 271 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 5: you talk to Dave, if you see him on X, he. 272 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 3: Is sassy in general. 273 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 5: So the sassiness came from that, and then I'm far 274 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 5: less sassy. But these people are so irritating that I 275 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 5: found my inner sassiness and brought it out. So yeah, 276 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 5: at the end of the day, you know, again watching 277 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 5: folks like you and Jamil respond to these people and 278 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 5: many others. Right, I use you into as an example, 279 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 5: but there are many others that are out there just 280 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 5: trying to do their job in the media and waste 281 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 5: in almost all women, wasting their time that could be 282 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 5: spent doing other important things responding to these people and. 283 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 3: Doing it nicely, right, And I'm like, no, we don't 284 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 3: have to be nice. This is in our field. We're 285 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 3: not in the media. It doesn't matter what we say. 286 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 5: We're academics, you know, we go back to our caves 287 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,959 Speaker 5: and right, like, we can be sassy in the public 288 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 5: eye and continue on with our lives. 289 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 3: So why not. 290 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 5: And again, I don't think these folks deserve our calm 291 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 5: or a welcomness because they're not being genuine in their 292 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 5: responses when they're being trolls. 293 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: I think sassy's the perfect word, though, because if you 294 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: start to become cruel or dismissive, your message is lost 295 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: because it's easier than to fight the attitude you're bringing 296 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: instead of the information you're bringing. So the sassiness says, listen, 297 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: we're tired of your bullshit and here's the real facts 298 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: versus cruelty, which this just then adds to this sort 299 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: of schism when nobody seeks to find common ground and 300 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: to meet over the information, it's just about pushing the 301 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 1: other side away. So I think SAS's like the perfect word, 302 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 1: and that's what I aim for. I've had plenty of 303 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: people reach out to me who are up and coming 304 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 1: in the business and say, should I worry about getting 305 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,959 Speaker 1: hired if I clap back occasionally to trolls, And I 306 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: always say, as long as you are not cruel and 307 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: you are civil and the information that you're providing or 308 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: the way you're clapping back is either just funny about 309 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: grammar or spelling, because that is always a go to 310 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: for me if somebody's coming after me or if it's informed, 311 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: you're fine, just don't sync down to their level. We 312 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: got to take a quick break more with Neph and 313 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: Dave coming up. You know, Dave, you came on my 314 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: old podcast. I've been following you for years. I learned 315 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: a ton about how to see the women's pro sports 316 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: space through an academic lens, in part because of the 317 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: research that you would share and the important historical context 318 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: that you would bring in. Some of your most compelling 319 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: and important work I think is helping folks learn the 320 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: realities of men's leagues at their inception, years before many 321 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 1: of us were ever alive. Can you share what might 322 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: be some surprising realities around, for instance, the NBA's lean 323 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: early years, and how you can use information like that 324 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: to help people understand why their opinions on women's sports 325 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: are not correct. 326 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 5: Yeah. 327 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, let's let's start with the NBA. I think 328 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 4: the NBA. Most people don't know the story of the NBA. 329 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 4: It starts in the in the forties. It is college 330 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 4: men's basketball had been around for decades, had been was very, 331 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 4: very popular. It had a huge audience, and naturally people thought, hey, 332 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 4: let's take those same exact athletes, put them on professional teams, 333 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 4: and we'll sell tickets. And they did that, and they 334 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 4: did not there were no tickets to be sold, and 335 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 4: they tried lots of things early in NBA history. They 336 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 4: would they would schedule NBA games after high school games. 337 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 4: You came to watch your kid watch a professional. Bob 338 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 4: Goosey tells the story that when he was originally drafted, 339 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 4: not by the Celtics, he was drafted by the Tri 340 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 4: City Hawks. He's like, I did major geography at holy Cross, 341 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 4: but I knew there was no such thing as a 342 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 4: tri City Well, they couldn't get an audience in one city, 343 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 4: so they put in three cities, and so they all, 344 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 4: maybe if we run around, we'll find some audience. They 345 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 4: had an early memo from the Commission. In the first 346 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 4: you know, five or six years of the NBA, it says, hey, 347 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 4: some of you are telling the media how many people 348 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 4: are actually showing up to these games. Well, don't do that. 349 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 4: You are free to pad the numbers, you know, you 350 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 4: don't have to tell the truth. And so that's where 351 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 4: the NBA starts. And we know from Congressional testimony because 352 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 4: Congress investigated professional sports in the fifties men's professional sports. 353 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 4: The NBA at that point in today's dollars was worth 354 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 4: about fifteen million. So the WNBA is worth hundreds of millions. 355 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 4: They were worth fifteen million. They were incredibly tighty. If 356 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 4: you get up to nineteen seventy seventy two, that's when 357 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 4: the NBA is the same age as the WNBA, same age. 358 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 4: Their revenue in the late sixties early seventies jumps from 359 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 4: one hundred million to two hundred million. The WNBA's revenue 360 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 4: from twenty nineteen to twenty twenty three jump from one 361 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 4: hundred million to two hundred million, exactly the same thing. 362 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 4: There was. There is a really big difference. The NBA 363 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 4: at that point was paying Kareem Abdul Jabbar four hundred 364 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 4: thousand dollars a year in nineteen seventy three. Nobody that 365 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 4: of NBA is making four hundred thousand dollars a year now, 366 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 4: So there is a huge difference in wages, but in 367 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 4: terms of revenue, terms of attendance, in terms of how 368 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 4: much people are paying attention to this, the NBA and 369 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 4: the WNBA are following essentially the same path. They are 370 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,719 Speaker 4: adding fans just like you'd expect it. It just takes 371 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 4: decades to build a fan base. Most people are born 372 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 4: into their fandom. You don't. You don't become a rabbit 373 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 4: fan of a lot of things as an adult. It's 374 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 4: basically it's an addiction. So the way to think about 375 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 4: it is, imagine all the people you know who at 376 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 4: the age of forty took up smoking cigarettes. That's a 377 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 4: bizarre thing to do, right, That would be bizarre. That's 378 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 4: what a fandom is, right. You know, if you're forty 379 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 4: years old, you're not going to suddenly say, hey, I'm 380 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 4: going to be a fan of this sport I've never 381 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 4: watched before. That's not realistic. You do it as a child, 382 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 4: do you pick it up from your parents and your 383 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 4: friends and your relatives, and it grows gradually as that 384 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,159 Speaker 4: network gets bigger and bigger, and so everyone investing in 385 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 4: a women's sports league, whether it's National Women's Soccer League 386 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 4: or the WNBA, should expect this will take decades, but 387 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 4: eventually fans will get addicted and then you'll have the 388 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 4: greatest business ever imaginable, because there is no business like sports. 389 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 4: Sports is a business that you can disappoint your fans 390 00:18:54,880 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 4: every single year and they never go away. Right, Chicago 391 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,640 Speaker 4: Bears fan, you know this, Yeah, we. 392 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: Talked about this before. You use the restaurant example. Being 393 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: a Chicago Bears fan is like going to the same 394 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,719 Speaker 1: restaurant over and over and they serve you like a 395 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 1: plate of shit, and you're like, thank you, I'll be 396 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: back next week. 397 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, And and then you get convinced of this. 398 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 4: You go to the owner and the owner says, I 399 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 4: understand that this food has been crap for so long. 400 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 4: But here's what I did. I got a new bus boy, 401 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 4: and it's going to change everything. And you would be like, 402 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 4: oh my god, a new bus boy. 403 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 1: Oh I believe I'm it's going to be different now, 404 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: Oh it's gonna be I didn't know you got a 405 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 1: new busboy. 406 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 4: Well, I'll be back for sure. And that's exactly how 407 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 4: sports fans are. You know they you know, they draft, 408 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 4: they draft a brand new offensive guard, and every fan 409 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 4: is like, oh, well, that is all the difference that's 410 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 4: gonna change every reason. 411 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: And it's so true though, and it's something I've talked 412 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 1: about so much with women's sports, is how do you 413 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 1: recreate things that can't be done organically, like nostalgia and tradition. 414 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: So much of what brings us together around sport is 415 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 1: when you go to a game, you know what the 416 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 1: chants are, and you know what everybody always does when 417 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: this thing happens. And if that existence hasn't been there 418 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: for longer than a couple of years, that's not going 419 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: to exist yet. So how do you either be intentional 420 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: about creating it or how do you offset that with 421 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,360 Speaker 1: other things that make it exciting. One thing I'll point 422 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: out about the NBAWNBA comparison is, of course, the WNBA 423 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: benefits from an NBA that is financially helping them, that 424 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,439 Speaker 1: has existed and created a sort of path and model 425 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 1: that is part of a larger cable and streaming and 426 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 1: massive sports entertainment industrial complex that didn't exist for early NBA, 427 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: but it also suffers from that because of comparison. It 428 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: also suffers from centuries of patriarchy. It also suffers from 429 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 1: expectations about women and what lane in which they belong. 430 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: So it's not in apples to apples comparison, but it 431 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: is so useful to look back at some of the 432 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: moments that we herald in NBA history and be remind 433 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: I did that eight thousand people were there for them, right, 434 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: these great players, these moments of scoring, and in our 435 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 1: minds the stadium is full and everyone's watching on TV, 436 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: when in fact it was on tape delay and almost. 437 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 2: No one showed up to watch it. Those are important 438 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 2: things to remember. 439 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 1: Nef I mentioned in your intro you were a Division 440 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: one basketball player yourself. You're a talented female athlete who 441 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: has lived the life of trying to be given respect, 442 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: afforded resources and facilities. How did the negative noise around 443 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 1: athletes when you were hooping inform your perspective now? And 444 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: how much have you seen it change? 445 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 2: Oh? 446 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 5: Man, it absolutely informed who I am, right, I mean, 447 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 5: I think and I say that, But also I kind 448 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 5: of lived in a bubble where I played in a 449 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 5: part of Atlanta where women's basketball was very popular, girls 450 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 5: basketball was very popular. Growing up, I was coached by 451 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 5: a black guy who played college football at a high level, 452 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 5: played some basketball, and he just he had a lot 453 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 5: of daughters. He just did not see the gender barriers 454 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,360 Speaker 5: to success in the ways that a lot of other 455 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 5: girls may have experienced it at a young age. I've 456 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 5: told the story before that we played against boys at 457 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 5: a very young age and routinely beat them. So as 458 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 5: a you know, thirteen year old ne f thought she 459 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 5: could beat anybody that was thirteen, right, it wouldn't matter 460 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 5: if you. 461 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 3: Were a girl or a boy. 462 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 5: And that just, you know, that followed me throughout my career, 463 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 5: both athletically and academically. I do I will say that 464 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 5: when I got to college, you could see the differences, right. 465 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 5: I mean I also went to a high school where 466 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 5: the girls and boys team was treated similarly, but also 467 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 5: the girls team was much more successful winning state championships 468 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 5: than the boys team. So again, it just it was 469 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 5: it didn't occur to me until college that you are 470 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 5: treated the genders are treated differently based on just gender. Right, 471 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 5: Women's and men's basketball are not treated the same. I 472 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 5: got to Georgia, Tech and it was night and day. 473 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 5: The experiences that the men team got versus the women's 474 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 5: team wasn't even comparable. And you know, I say this often, 475 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 5: is it's not just isolated in sports, and I think 476 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 5: we have to acknowledge that. I think this moment right now, 477 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 5: we've seen, you know, two of the most qualified political 478 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 5: candidates in the history run for being women, run for 479 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 5: presidencies and lose. I think we have to acknowledged the 480 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 5: fact that there's always this undercurrent of sexism and hegemonic masculinity. 481 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 5: Not to get too nerdy and theoretical, but these ideas 482 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 5: that there are negative stereotypes about women that are at play, 483 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 5: and it's very easy for leagues and organizations to fall 484 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:43,159 Speaker 5: back into those when they don't want to actually just 485 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 5: share the fact, like the NBA or WNBA that they're 486 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 5: not necessarily valuing women's sports or women's teams or a 487 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 5: whole league, and the way that they have valued and 488 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 5: treated the men's league over time. So that's a very 489 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 5: long way, long winded way of saying I didn't acknowledge 490 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,280 Speaker 5: that these gender inequities exist until I was in college, 491 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 5: and then very quickly I began to acknowledge it and 492 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 5: sort of dig into why this is happening. 493 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 3: I was coaching and training. 494 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 5: Boys, you know, in college. I played with boys my 495 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 5: whole life. So just being a basketball player and playing 496 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 5: in a city where the girls and boys are playing 497 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 5: together pickup games are But you know, all folks, if 498 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 5: you show up and you can play, then you can play. 499 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 5: You're not getting kicked off the court because you're a girl. 500 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 5: In Atlanta and similar in a lot of big cities 501 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 5: right especially for at least my experience is being in 502 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 5: black neighborhoods as well. 503 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 3: It's just not happening. 504 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 5: If you can play, you can play, and then going 505 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 5: to organize basketball at the collegiate level and saying no, 506 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 5: if you're good and if you're better, and if your 507 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 5: team's better than the men's team, it doesn't matter. You're 508 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 5: still not going to get the same resources that they're 509 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 5: getting even though they haven't won a game all year. 510 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's something I've talked to mothers and especially women 511 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: who coach younger girls, is what is the balance between 512 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 1: telling young girls you can do any thing, believe in yourself, 513 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 1: you're just as great, versus saying just so you know 514 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,199 Speaker 1: you're not going to get the same resources, You're not 515 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: going to get the same facilities. You're going to have 516 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: to demand equality because otherwise you won't get it. Thereby 517 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: sort of bursting their bubble too early, but also maybe 518 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: creating activists out of younger women before they get to 519 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: the collegiate level and start to look around and realize. 520 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 2: Well, this is messed up. 521 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: Because I feel the same way, like so many of 522 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: us also become so conditioned to that that it isn't 523 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: until later in life that we realize that technically, per 524 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: Title nine, we could have suit our schools, or we 525 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: could have complained about getting less than. But because society 526 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 1: seemed to so endorse the idea that we deserved less than, 527 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: it didn't occur to us that we should ask for 528 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 1: anything otherwise until you get to later in life. 529 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 2: And then it's sort of beyond your control. 530 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 1: So yet, that's a conversation I guess for people with 531 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: kids and coaches. You know, there's so many passionate, informed 532 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 1: fans of women's sports, there's so many smart people investing 533 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: in women's pro leagues. But there are folks at the 534 00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: highest levels of brands and networks and media outlets that 535 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: are essentially more akin to the trolls that you're speaking to. 536 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:04,919 Speaker 1: They're stuck in the past when it comes to the 537 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: economic opportunity offered and the realities of the interest in 538 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: women's sports. How do we get the trolls in high 539 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: places to be more educated and up to date? 540 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 4: Dave, Yeah, let me. I'll get that fixed for you 541 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 4: by lunch. 542 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, link with lunch, probably martini lunch 543 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: a couple hours. 544 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,680 Speaker 2: We're dealing with the trolls of our places. 545 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 4: When Enough was talking, she said hegemonic masculinity, and I 546 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,439 Speaker 4: would point out that book that works do not appear 547 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 4: in our book. The way we say that is the 548 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 4: way we put it is in sports men really love men. 549 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 4: That's that's effectively the same sentiment, but it's said it 550 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 4: a more accessible way because and that's actually true. The 551 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 4: problem is in sports and when you look at these 552 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 4: companies when it comes to sports, men are really in 553 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 4: love with men, and they treat women. And we say 554 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 4: this in the book. Women are treated as if women's 555 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 4: sports are a cardboard factory and all that matters is 556 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 4: the latest financial statement, and men's sports are treated as 557 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 4: if this is my passion, I am living my life 558 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 4: through these men. I don't give a damn how much 559 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 4: my money they spend. I just want to win because 560 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 4: this is everything to me. And the problem is getting 561 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 4: the investors to be as emotionally connected to what they're 562 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 4: investing in. And there are WNBA owners and I think 563 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,959 Speaker 4: Mark Davis with the ACE is a good example of this, 564 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 4: who goes to the games. He clearly is emotionally involved. 565 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 4: He wants his team to win. He will break rules 566 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 4: to make his team win. And we don't like that, 567 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 4: but that's a good sign. You want to see people 568 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 4: doing that, that they're so involved that they're willing to 569 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 4: do stuff like that. And that's the problem is. I 570 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 4: think one of the ex that holds back women's sports 571 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,400 Speaker 4: is so many people trying to treat this as a 572 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 4: financial statement for this month. And it's not if you're 573 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 4: going to be an investor. It's it's long term. But 574 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 4: also you got to get investors who are passionate about 575 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 4: the actual sport and and you know, but if you 576 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 4: can't get that, I do. I will point this out. 577 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 4: As Neph and I were working on this book, go 578 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 4: back to twenty eighteen where we started, where women's sports 579 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 4: was in twenty eighteen where it is today. You know, 580 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 4: one of the things I said, I think and I 581 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 4: were saying when we were writing this book is is 582 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 4: this book allows us a lot of I told you 583 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 4: those and so as we go through time, neph and 584 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 4: I just go, I told you so. And here's a 585 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 4: fun little stat. W NBA ratings this last year average 586 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 4: a million fans across all platforms on ESPN one point 587 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 4: two million, NBA ratings right now on ESPN one point 588 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 4: six million. The difference is getting smaller and smaller and smaller. 589 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 4: And yet the NBA totally ripped off the WNBA in 590 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 4: terms of the media deal. It's a seventy five billion 591 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 4: dollar deal. The NBA gave them ninety seven percent of it. 592 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 4: They're not getting ninety seven percent of the ratings. That's ridiculous. 593 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 4: And so you know the NBA talks about how they 594 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 4: gave so much money to the WNBA. Well you look 595 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 4: at that media deal. They are taking more. They're going 596 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 4: to be taking if you do the math, they're going 597 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,479 Speaker 4: to be taking back every loss that they made up, 598 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 4: and the losses I believe are made up. They're going 599 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 4: to take back all the losses they made up. And 600 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 4: more every single year of that deal, every single year 601 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 4: they're going to be getting all that money back, and 602 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 4: so it's a huge The NBA is going to make 603 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 4: billions off the WNBA, billions of dollars off of them. 604 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk us through this, and we don't have 605 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: too much time, but I do. This is something that 606 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: always comes up. People will talk about how the WNBA 607 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: doesn't make any money, how the WNBA is just relying 608 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: and sucking off the teed of the NBA. Meanwhile, we 609 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: will have NBA teams that openly claim losses for the 610 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: year that will never be you to point to the 611 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: product being a problem on the NBA side. So, as 612 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 1: an economist, quickly, if you can walk us through how 613 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: that's just a matter of presentation, particularly when it comes 614 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: to things like tax write offs and where the money 615 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: goes and how it's spent and how it's delivered. 616 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 2: Because to your point, yeah, we do hold up. 617 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: Women as this black and white, and then on the 618 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: men's side, it's this mirage of how are we reporting 619 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: things versus what's actually happening. 620 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, So quickly, the NBA, which is the one calling 621 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 4: the shots in the WNBA, has claimed the NBA is 622 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 4: losing money since at least the late nineteen sixties early seventies. 623 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 4: There was senate testimony in the early seventies where they 624 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 4: said we're losing money, and economist Roger and Nole looked 625 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 4: at their financial statements and said, well, depends on how 626 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 4: you look at it. I can look at it this way, 627 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 4: and you're making a ton of money. So it's just 628 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 4: the way you're presenting it. And the NBA has been 629 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 4: doing this, and they do it because every time they 630 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 4: claim they're losing money, players give them concessions and take 631 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 4: less money. So it's a very good labor negotiation strategy. 632 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 4: So WNBA has suffered the same kind of fate. NBA 633 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 4: owners keep claiming it loses money. The amount of money 634 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 4: they claim it's losing is ridiculous compared to the NBA. 635 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 4: It's a very very tiny amount of money that they 636 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 4: even claim. There's no reason to think that what they 637 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 4: claim is true. We don't see the financial statements. We 638 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 4: have too many reporters, especially at the New York Times 639 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 4: New York Post, who report an assertion of losses as 640 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 4: a fact. If somebody tells a reporter, I am doing 641 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 4: something and there's no evidence for that. You don't report 642 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 4: it as a fact. That's not how reporting works. But 643 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 4: the NBA gets that, they get that treatment. They say, 644 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 4: WAA is losing forty million. New York Post writes, WNBA 645 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 4: is losing forty million. You don't know that. You didn't 646 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 4: see any financial statements. How do you know that? So 647 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 4: there's reason to think that they're not telling the truth 648 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 4: because they didn't tell the truth about the NBA for 649 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 4: all those years. The amount of losses we're talking about 650 00:31:53,840 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 4: are incredibly tiny. They're not significant even if they do exist. Yeah, 651 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 4: going back that media deal, they're going to be taking 652 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 4: billions of dollars from the WNBA. So if you're losing 653 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 4: forty million, well you're going to be getting billions. That 654 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 4: WNBA media deal is it worth probably eight to ten 655 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 4: billion dollars and they're getting two that's eight billion dollars. 656 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 4: So it's tough money they're taking. 657 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 1: And it's really hard because without the transparency of the financials, 658 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: you can run with whatever argument you want to make. 659 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: And what we end up doing is saying NBA teams 660 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: are losing money, but their valuations are billions of dollars, Like, 661 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: how does that work every year that you say you've 662 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: been losing money for the last fifty plus years, and 663 00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: yet with each passing year, the investment in owning a 664 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: team becomes more and more lucrative, regardless of how you 665 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: run it poorly, well, whatever. But we don't afford that 666 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: same principle or that same idea to the WNBA side. 667 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: I could keep talking to Chill forever. We're out of time, Nef. 668 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: Last question, what do you hope folks take away from 669 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: this book? 670 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 5: I hope folks take away and understanding that the way 671 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 5: that the stories have been framed to them about women's 672 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 5: sports is incorrect. I hope they consider our reframing of 673 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,160 Speaker 5: women's sports and the context that we provide, in historical 674 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 5: context that we provide to show that women's sports are 675 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 5: doing fine, they're doing great, they're excelling, and understanding the 676 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 5: history and the context of that makes it shows or 677 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 5: paints a much clearer picture for everyone. 678 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: Well, I'm so grateful to y'all for doing the tough 679 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: academic research and the actual work to put things down 680 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: in print that are actually correct, as opposed to those 681 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: who are willing to and face NOO accountability or repercussions 682 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: for flinging around misinformation in pursuit of dragging down women 683 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: because of their weak, sad little egos. Anyway, this is 684 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 1: a great book Slaying the trolls. 685 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 2: Everyone get it. 686 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 4: Thanks so much for coming on, Thanks for having us. 687 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: Got to pay some bills. Stick around slices, Welcome back slices. 688 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: Make sure you go out and get the book. And 689 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: if you're interested in reading more about what Dave mentioned 690 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 1: regarding the whole NBA handling of the WNBA TV deal, 691 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: We're going to put his substack article about. 692 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 2: It in today's show notes. We'll talk to you tomorrow. Slices. 693 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:18,040 Speaker 1: Good Game Nephen Dave, Good Game Spanish tapis Thank you Trolls. 694 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,320 Speaker 1: Good Game with Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports 695 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 1: production in partnership with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You 696 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: can find us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 697 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,440 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Production by Wonder Media Network, 698 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: our producers are Alex Azzie and Misha Jones. Our executive 699 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,320 Speaker 1: producers are Christina Everett, Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder. 700 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 1: Our editors are Emily Rutterer Britney Martinez, Grace Lynch, and 701 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: Lindsay Crowdowell. Production assistants from Lucy Jones and I'm Your 702 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 1: Host Sarah Spain.