WEBVTT - #457 Jason Flom with Robert Almodovar at the 2024 Innocence Conference 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.280 The following interview was recorded in person at the twenty 0:00:03.360 --> 0:00:11.000 twenty four Innocent Network conference in New Orleans. On September one, 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:14.480 nineteen eighty four, a drive by shooting occurred in front 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:18.360 of an apartment building on West Cortland Street in Chicago, Illinois. 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:22.720 Two people were killed and one was injured. The shooting 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:25.440 was believed to be a part of an ongoing gang 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:31.240 feud between the Maniac Latin Disciples and the Insane Dragons. Soon, 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:35.879 the surviving witnesses identified two alleged Insane Dragons from a 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:40.320 photo array, seventeen year old William Nagron and nineteen year 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:46.720 old Robert Almodovar. Despite a strong alibi defense, both young 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:53.000 men got life without parole. But this is wrongful conviction. 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:03.840 Wrongful conviction has always given voice to innocent people in prison, 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:07.520 and now we're expanding that voice to you. Call us 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:10.800 at eight three three two oh seven four six sixty 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.200 six and tell us how these stories make you feel 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:15.800 and what you've done to help the cause, even if 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:18.639 it's something as simple as telling a friend or sharing 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:21.960 on social media, and you might just hear yourself in 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:25.520 a future episode. Call us eight three three two oh 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:38.480 seven four six sixty six. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:44.040 This story is like a perfect encapsulation of so many 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:50.200 different problems in Chicago law enforcement circles and even on 0:01:50.280 --> 0:01:54.120 a broader level of people's attitudes towards certain members of 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:58.520 the community. And it's a really important episode for that reason. 0:01:58.720 --> 0:02:01.160 And another reason why is because one of our guests 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:03.680 today I'm going to introduced now Jennifer Bonjin, a Bungie 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:06.360 and law group. I'm excited to have her here today. Jennifer, 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:09.920 thanks for being here, Thank you, and with us today 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:12.640 is the man of the hour we're recording here at 0:02:12.639 --> 0:02:16.080 the Innocent Network conference with the guy I met which 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:19.320 was very fortuitous and serendipitous last year at the Instance 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:22.480 Network conference in Phoenix. Now we're New Orleans. Robert Albadova 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:23.640 or Robert, thanks. 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:25.160 For being here, well, thanks for having me. 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:27.000 And thanks for last year. You were the guy who 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:31.080 told me about Jimmy Soto and I was very right place, 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.560 right time, happy to be able to be of some 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.679 assistance to the team that was working to free him. 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:38.760 And he's like a legend in prison because he's ready 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:40.680 to give the law helped like guys get home. 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:42.720 You and a number of the other Xogneries told me 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:44.920 last year, and I was like, well, that's crazy that 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:47.840 he's got everybody else home and he's still there. So 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:50.240 fortunately he's not there anymore, and he's never going back, 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:52.000 and he's actually going to law school. This fall to 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:54.440 Lostwestern is going to be It's one of the greatest 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:56.760 stories I've heard in all my years of doing We 0:02:56.760 --> 0:02:58.240 don't want to give away too much of the end 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:00.640 of the story, but we're obviously here, which is great. 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:04.000 But how you got here it's horrifying. You ran into 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:08.600 one of the worst, most corrupt, most dangerous cops in 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:13.080 the country, Chicago Police Detective Ronaldo Guivara, who has been 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:17.359 responsible for countless wrongful convictions and incredible huge amounts of 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:20.440 payouts to people who he wronged that the taxpayers of 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:23.480 Chicago I've had and Illinois have had to foot those bills. 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:27.280 But before this happened, what was your life like growing up? 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:30.079 You know, my mom raised me and my brothers and sisters. 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:33.799 My dad he didn't live with us. He was basically 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:36.560 a drug user. My mom she didn't like my father 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:38.880 period on my father's side. That's why she can move 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.320 far away so my brother, my big brother, Charlie, took 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:45.440 me from my mom's house always to my grandfather's house 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:47.880 and once she showed me that I'd be going there 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:50.560 all the time. My father, one of his sisters is 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:54.240 my aunt Gladdess, and she basically kind of took me 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:56.080 in whenever it summification came. 0:03:56.160 --> 0:03:58.240 I sticked with her. She like a mom figure. She 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:00.720 gave me that love, that attention that I ain't get 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:02.440 from my own mom. My mom. 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:05.040 She tried to do her best, but my mom also 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:08.320 was abusive. She useduld me and my brother, my sisters 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:11.080 a lot. The station courts ball bucos. You know, my 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:13.440 mom was rough and then also lived in our neighborhood 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:15.760 is also rough too. We live in the home Park area. 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:19.520 Gang infected. You got many Langton typos, you got Spanish 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:23.960 corest instant dragons, drug didders. It's just a low income neighborhood, 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:26.640 ampy loss everywhere. And at the time my mom was 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:29.440 living in Lan King's neighborhood, and then when my father 0:04:29.480 --> 0:04:33.920 lived at my grandfather's house, you know folks area, its dragons. 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:36.880 You know, also a quiet kid, laid back. You know, 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:39.240 I never got to no trouble and then as I 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:42.680 got older in my teens, that's when, you know, the 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:46.120 gangs came into my life because you all still got 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:48.800 to remember us, you guys surviving in the same neighborhood. 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.920 As we've heard in other Chicago gang cases, gang affiliation 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:56.200 is determined by where you live, not by how actively 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:59.680 you're involved. Robert became known to the police as being 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:02.040 a fil with the Insane Dragons. 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:04.599 And here's an interesting piece of this. Robert had no 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:08.800 criminal background. He had a couple little my bass yeah, 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:12.480 but arrests, no conviction. His rap sheet looks better than mine. Okay, 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:16.600 he was a really good kid. There was a gang 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:22.640 officer named Mark O'shewsky who basically terrorized Robert on the streets. 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:26.040 Robert's girlfriend lived in an area where this police officer 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:28.359 sort of lived, kind of adjacent to Humble Park. 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:31.839 Yeah, yuppie, says, yuppy area of the brick Yard area. 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:33.840 She was staying over there, and my cousin also to 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:35.880 live over there too, And I was staying there for 0:05:35.960 --> 0:05:38.359 the summertime, and that's how I met my girlfriend. And 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:41.160 during that time I was over there, Osky always harassed 0:05:41.160 --> 0:05:42.880 me because I stand out, you know, I had to 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:45.320 back your clothes, pushed back hat, shaggy. 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:46.520 He's a pretty boy. 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:49.360 You know, he said, Okay, I was. 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:53.400 So so that time he's seen me, he pulled me 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:55.520 over and one time he asked me, you know where 0:05:55.560 --> 0:05:55.880 you're from. 0:05:55.960 --> 0:05:57.080 I said, I'm from Home and Park. 0:05:57.520 --> 0:05:59.120 He was like, man, take your spic ass back to 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:01.040 the home park because he's like, fuck up this area. 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:04.760 I'm like, I looked at him, like really, And ever 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:06.880 since then he's just keep my hangrassing me. 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:09.080 So, you know, one of the things that stuck out 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:12.279 when I was researching your case, I'm reading about how 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:15.559 you were categorized as a member of the Insane Dragons gang, 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.760 and then I'm looking at the alibi. Roberto worked an 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:22.040 eleven hour shift at Farley's Chocolate Company on August thirty first, 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:24.000 nineteen nighty four, and left work at five pm, then 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:26.240 took a bus to Wilbur Wright College, where he attended 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:28.520 a class until ten pm, and then took a bus home, 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:30.280 where he remained the rest of the night. That would 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:34.880 make you the world's most industrious and studious and responsible 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:38.520 gang member in the history of the gang culture. Right, 0:06:38.640 --> 0:06:41.600 But there's a very logical explanation for why that is. 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:42.880 My girlfriend got pregnant. 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:44.799 I like, I want to be there for my daughter, 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:47.240 and I know by being that lifestyle I won't be 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:49.520 able to. So I left it alone. We moved in 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:52.360 with my guys. Job that went to right cottage, right 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:55.440 cottage base. He provided once you get GD you could 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:57.000 pick up a trade and that's my goal. 0:06:57.200 --> 0:06:59.240 Say with that money, give my own place and be 0:06:59.320 --> 0:06:59.920 there for my daughter. 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:01.640 It was really on the right path. 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:03.640 And the funny thing about that, before I ever got 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:04.839 locked up with is case. 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:06.680 I was walking with my girlfriend. 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:09.640 Osski drove out to me and said, man, you know, 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:12.400 education guys haven't cast you yet, but why I do 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:12.800 get you? 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:15.440 You going down for a long time. And this when 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:17.800 Loui shit happened, you know. 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:21.760 And then shortly before one am on September one, nineteen 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:23.880 ninety four, a car pulled up in front of a 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:26.400 department building in the thirty nine hundred block of West 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:29.840 Cortland in Chicago. A passenger fired several gunshots at a 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:33.800 group of people. Amy Mrkez and Jorge Rodriguez, who were 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:36.920 both eighteen years old, were killed. Twenty year old Jacqueline 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.080 Grande was shot in the back, but she survived. And 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:43.960 another teenager named Kenneally Saiez gove behind a parked car 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.880 when the shots erupted and somehow miraculously escaped injury. And 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:52.160 then the Chicago Police detective Ronaldo Guivara, who our listeners 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:56.680 will recognize, gets involved and this night eron folded. 0:07:57.160 --> 0:08:01.600 You know, when I started handling these cases involved Reygavara, 0:08:01.760 --> 0:08:03.400 I first came with this idea that when you were 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:05.960 framed by a police officer, there must be some reason, 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:09.680 like prior history, there's some retaliation, there's something right. 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:10.920 And what I came. 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:13.520 To learn and Robert's case is a perfect example of it, 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:17.320 is no sometimes he just framed people because he could, 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:18.200 and he didn't. 0:08:17.960 --> 0:08:18.600 Care who it was. 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:22.280 Robert had no prior involvement with Reygaevera, And I think 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:26.160 what happened is this shooting happens September one, Area five, 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:30.280 with Gavara being the big player there. They're not interested 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:33.280 in getting the right person finding justice for the family 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:36.160 of these victims. They are interested in closing a case 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:39.400 as quickly as possible, and it doesn't matter who because 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:43.640 all of the young Latino men in Humboldt Park are fungible, interchangeable, 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:44.160 doesn't matter. 0:08:44.280 --> 0:08:46.040 It's a body for a body, right exactly. 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:46.800 It did not matter. 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.840 There was nothing about you know, letting the facts lead 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:52.160 you to. You know, what detectors are supposed to do. 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:54.040 And the way they would do it is they would 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.880 work backwards. They would decide based on where the shooting 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:59.520 took place and which gangs were at odds with each other, 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:03.440 and then say it must be someone from this gang, 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:06.600 and then we will narrow the pool from there. So 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:09.320 this shooting, they came up with the idea that it 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:12.920 was an insane dragon. There's actually never been any real 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:15.480 good evidence that the shooting was carried out by an 0:09:15.520 --> 0:09:17.040 insane dragon, but that's. 0:09:16.920 --> 0:09:17.800 What they started with. 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:21.960 So, because Robert's prior association was with the insane dragons, 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:24.320 and this Olshefsky guy, you know, had it out for Robert, 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:26.760 Olshevski was like, a I got a guy for you, 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:29.520 and Cavarro was like cool. And here's an interesting piece 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:31.760 of this. They didn't have any photos of him because 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:35.160 he really had not been in much trouble. So Olshefsky 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:37.480 He's like, I know where the kid's cousin hangs out. 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:41.480 So they literally did a pretextual arrest of him and 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.640 his cousin so that they get the polaroid of him 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:47.040 to then go manipulate the witnesses. 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:49.040 So he was rasking my cousin too, And so my 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:50.800 uncle decided on what we're going to sell the house. 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:53.280 We're going to move because his k keep my harasses. 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:55.800 Then night she's talking about at the time, the house 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.719 is empty, basically, you know, it's just college refrigerator. Oh 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:02.840 SESTI came by the light at the house. My cousin's like, man, 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:04.959 I went with talks to him like, man, I go 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:07.120 out there to talk to him. Man, you walk in here, 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.480 he's gonna see us. He's gonna be down some bullshit basically, 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:11.240 And sure enough, that's what happened. And soon as she 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.960 walked in, he's seeing us get on the fucking floor. 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:17.120 I was like, wait a minute, you know, where's your 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:18.400 warring at. You can't just do this. 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:20.079 He's like, shut the fuck up, him in the back 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:22.320 of your head with the pistol, let us down. He 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:25.439 wait to the backup, came searched the house, you know, 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:31.920 and somehow they found dulfa bag with its shotgun. Allegedly, 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:35.080 they had us on the ground. They snatched my cousin up. 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.080 They took her to the back room and you can 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.800 hear him just hit him, beating up my cousin. Boom 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.200 boom boom, and he come out the room, he crying. 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:44.920 He said, do you know anything about this murder that happened? 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.640 I said, I don't know nothing about no damn murder. 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:50.200 After that, it took us to Grand Sancho. It was 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:52.600 like four of us to put us in a room. 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:56.200 And mind you're like, I got arrested by Shiskey so 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:58.120 many times I be by myself. 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:00.720 He locked me up from my bass, Like what the fuck? 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.040 Just harassment, just harassment. Then, I mean so many He 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:07.400 never took my porteror picture ever. So this time around 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:09.400 he went to the drawer and put out that camera, 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.640 the poor camera, take our pictures, and then they let 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:15.000 you go. Right then, like a week later, I get 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:16.520 arrested for this murder. 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:19.439 Yeah, September eleventh, so it was ten days after the crime. 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:19.760 Yeah. 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:22.520 Well yeah, they had to go, you know, manipulate the witnesses. 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:25.440 And as you pointed out, the Robert had an airtight 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:27.920 alibi for the time of the crime. Absolutely he had 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:30.280 worked at Farley's Candies, where his aunts worked. 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:31.559 He had to clack in and out. 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:36.199 Then he went to his classes and even his teacher 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.320 signed an affid David long Ago saying, yeah, he was 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:41.720 in class that night. And then you know, he took 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:44.600 the bus home. His girlfriend wasn't home with the baby, 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:46.880 and he was kind of upset that it was so 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:49.600 late and she wasn't home with the baby. And she 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:53.240 got home and they have screaming match, yelling for like hours, 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:58.240 and his aunts actually called his cousin and said, Junior, 0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:01.720 they call him Junior in the family and Sassy are fighting. 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:05.040 Can you come try to you know, come, and they came. 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:08.319 There were so many alibi witnesses and this is all 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:11.640 at the exact same time that this murder was going down. 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:13.480 Of course that didn't matter. I mean, you could have 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:16.480 been playing center for the bulls in front of twenty 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:18.439 thousand people. They still would have convicted you. 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.640 Right, Yeah, So Gavera basically took a polaroid of Robert 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:25.960 and got Kenney Saez, who was in a gang. Obviously 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:30.200 his best friend and his girlfriend was killed. Emotions running high. 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:32.600 You want vengeance, and a cop says to you, this 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:34.040 is the guy who did it. All you got to 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:36.680 do is go in and identify him. He's like, I'll 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:39.319 go along with that. Sure, even though now he says 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:40.679 I never saw who did it. 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:45.120 No, he's busy diving a car, looked trying to stay alive. Yeah, yes, 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:47.400 that's pretty hard to see. And of course then there's 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:49.360 the added pressure if you want to get somebody because 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:49.840 you were there. 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:54.079 Yeah, Kennelly, he says, gave some very powerful testimony at 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:57.320 his evidentiary hearing. He felt so guilty. He was in 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.840 a gang, he was out there, his girlfriend, she came 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:03.200 to see him. You know, he's like, I can't possibly 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.760 not do this when my girlfriend shot and killed. You know, 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:09.920 the family is upset with me, as it is. 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:11.559 And this is also a period in time when the 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:15.640 Chicago PD was torturing not only suspects but also witnesses. 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:19.200 Absolutely, Gavarro, there's a history of that people who he 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:21.239 wanted as witnesses, who were uncooperative. 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:22.439 They then got targeted. 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:25.800 So you were arrested September eleventh, ten days after this 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:27.040 horrible crime, and. 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:30.240 Then that guy locked up. They basically asked me about 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:30.960 the murder. 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:33.120 I teld him I didn't do nothing, and then they 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:35.000 basically telling listen, I guess your buddy in the room, 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:37.440 saying that you did it. I'm like, I don't care 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.280 who you got. You can have Jesus, I didn't do 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:43.079 this shit. You got the wrong person. So they put 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.200 us in the lineup. And that's why I met see Willie, 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:47.080 my cult defendant. 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:50.720 That's Willy. What the fuck? I don't know? 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:52.439 I said, man, you know, did you do this? Or 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:54.560 I ain't doing none of this. So they put us 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:57.120 in the lineup. Of course, the witnesses point us out, 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:59.960 and then they charged us for the murder. And now 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:02.360 I'm handcuffed to the wall in the room by myself, 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:06.520 just got the shitty look, tears in my eye. I think, 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:08.520 I'm not I can't believe this is happening to me. 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.240 And I never met this guy in my life, Guerrero, 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:13.080 so I don't know why he stashed me up. And 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.800 then the door opened up, olshshky stick his head in, 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:19.200 liot at me and say gotcha, and he closed the 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:22.400 door out of this motherfucker. And that's why I put 0:14:22.400 --> 0:14:22.840 it together. 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:24.840 Gotcha. 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:26.800 It's fucking sinister, isn't it. 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.840 It's sinister. And when we deposed him. I asked him 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:32.680 about that. He didn't really deny it. He said, I 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:34.520 don't know if I said that. I may have said 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:38.320 I told you. I'm like, well, it's pretty similar. 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.200 So Shesky was how Grero got a wow. 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:42.320 Basically, yeah, I. 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:45.360 Mean police officers would go to Gavera to do the 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:46.040 dirty work. 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:47.960 It wasn't just him doing it. 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.760 They were all dirty, but they would get Goavera to 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:51.720 do the heavy lifting. 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:06.120 You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:08.920 and all the Lava for Good podcasts one week early 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:12.360 and ad free by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:20.600 on Apple Podcasts. 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:24.640 The process of going to kind of jail, they're lying 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:27.360 up against the wall. You gotta get asshole naked right 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:30.160 next to somebody else right next to you. Officers coming 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:32.280 down make you bend over with spasce cheeks. You know, 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:36.560 it's just embarrassing, you know, And then that's just that. 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:39.280 You guys see the doctor, they call him the dick doctor. 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:41.720 So you go in there, you take a que tip 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:44.840 or something and pinion pee hope as shit was just 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:45.800 like what the fuck? 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:50.920 Nineteen years old too, so young, never had this experience. 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:52.800 Never in my life. I wait, what one p thirty 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.600 five parties soaking wet? You know, skinny kid, you know 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:57.960 I got up front. I was you know, I was scared. 0:15:58.280 --> 0:16:00.840 You walk in there and your pack of people just 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:03.640 looking at you, which should be about the screaming to 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:07.320 like what the David gangs, you know they run everything 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:10.280 basically in there. You don't find the rules, You'll be asked, 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:12.400 will stabbed, may be killed. It was just a a 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:13.280 whole nother world. 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:14.320 Man. Wow. 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:18.320 So this is September of nineteen ninety four. I'm assuming 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:21.680 there was either no bail or an unreachable amount of bail. 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:23.800 Right, And there's no bail. They give us no bail, 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:24.560 no bail at all. 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.760 Okay, So now now you're in there for fourteen months 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:28.440 awaiting trial. 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:31.040 Right, First of all, stay attorney was sticking at death. 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:34.760 Pending on a nineteen year old with no criminal history. 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:37.760 The death penalty, which is reserved for the worst of. 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:39.920 The worst, the worst of the worst. 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:42.960 It's a sure for anyone because we shouldn't have a 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:43.360 death penalty. 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:46.360 But that's agreed, agreed, it should be for no one. 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:49.400 I was scared. I was scared. It wanted to kill him, 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:50.040 murdered me. 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:52.320 Yeah, Jennifer, why don't you take. 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:52.720 Us through this? 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:57.440 It was an incredibly weak case and hinged entirely on 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:02.960 the testimony of two witnesses who were manipulated to some 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:08.359 degree into making identifications. We had Jackie Grande, who actually 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:13.480 admitted to Robert's prior lawyer that preceded his trial attorney, 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:18.359 that she had essentially been shown who to pick out. 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:20.800 And then Kennily Sayez. 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:24.359 Prior to trial, admitted that Gavara had shown him a 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:27.280 photograph and said this is who you need to choose 0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.239 in the lineup. He admitted it prior to trial, and 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:34.879 then guess what happened. Shockingly, he was arrested himself and 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:37.640 they were like, you're going to have to go back 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.960 to your original story or you know, we can really 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:43.080 fuck your life up. And so by the time he 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:45.400 hit the stand, he was back with the lie. So 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:49.520 we now have two witnesses who, even if they were 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:53.359 not manipulated, wouldn't have giving reliable testimony because, as we 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:57.200 pointed out earlier, the circumstances under which this shooting happened, 0:17:57.640 --> 0:18:00.000 the shooter is shooting from the back of a car, 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:05.119 are in a dark street seconds people trying to avoid 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:06.159 getting hit by bully. 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:07.160 Yeah. 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.240 I mean, under the best of circumstances, you wouldn't be 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:12.840 able to rely on those identifications. And now you have 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.960 police officers saying this is who you need to pick out, 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:20.159 and Robert's alibi they put the alibi defense on. But 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:22.480 the end of the day in the nineties, the police 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:25.360 win and he went to prison, sentenced to life. 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:29.440 November thirtieth, nineteen ninety five, you and Willie Nigron convicted 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:32.880 the first degree murders for the deaths of Rodriguez and Murcus, 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:36.800 and attempted murder and aggravated battery of Siaz Grande, and 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.359 each sentence to life without parole. We know the cops 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.760 knew that you were innocent. Do you think the prosecutors knew? 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:45.320 I don't know how they couldn't have. 0:18:45.560 --> 0:19:02.399 You know, I was blessed to have a family that 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:04.440 was there for me, especially my aunt Gladdness. 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:05.600 She did everything. 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:15.400 Yeah, she did everything for me everything. I got sentiment 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.200 the ark eight hours away from the city at the time. 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:22.240 My daughter was like think three years old. My aunt 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:26.159 God bless herself. She paid for my lawyer fee. She 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:32.160 set my phone calls. She sent me money, my own 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:38.879 mob that shit. But my aunt did everything for me. 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:40.840 At the end of the day, she ken't be going. 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:42.200 Yeah, she got them through. 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:44.960 My other aunts to be married to the Irish there 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:47.800 there too. But the one that took the blovet what's 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.120 my aunt gladness And that's just her husband. 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:53.240 He's like, you know, do what you need to do. 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:57.720