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Speaker 1: The following interview was recorded in person at the twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty four Innocent Network conference in New Orleans. On September one,

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty four, a drive by shooting occurred in front

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Speaker 1: of an apartment building on West Cortland Street in Chicago, Illinois.

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Speaker 1: Two people were killed and one was injured. The shooting

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Speaker 1: was believed to be a part of an ongoing gang

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Speaker 1: feud between the Maniac Latin Disciples and the Insane Dragons. Soon,

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Speaker 1: the surviving witnesses identified two alleged Insane Dragons from a

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Speaker 1: photo array, seventeen year old William Nagron and nineteen year

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Speaker 1: old Robert Almodovar. Despite a strong alibi defense, both young

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Speaker 1: men got life without parole. But this is wrongful conviction.

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Speaker 1: Wrongful conviction has always given voice to innocent people in prison,

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Speaker 1: and now we're expanding that voice to you. Call us

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Speaker 1: at eight three three two oh seven four six sixty

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Speaker 1: six and tell us how these stories make you feel

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Speaker 1: and what you've done to help the cause, even if

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Speaker 1: it's something as simple as telling a friend or sharing

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Speaker 1: on social media, and you might just hear yourself in

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Speaker 1: a future episode. Call us eight three three two oh

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Speaker 1: seven four six sixty six. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: This story is like a perfect encapsulation of so many

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Speaker 1: different problems in Chicago law enforcement circles and even on

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Speaker 1: a broader level of people's attitudes towards certain members of

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Speaker 1: the community. And it's a really important episode for that reason.

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Speaker 1: And another reason why is because one of our guests

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Speaker 1: today I'm going to introduced now Jennifer Bonjin, a Bungie

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Speaker 1: and law group. I'm excited to have her here today. Jennifer,

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Speaker 1: thanks for being here, Thank you, and with us today

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Speaker 1: is the man of the hour we're recording here at

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Speaker 1: the Innocent Network conference with the guy I met which

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Speaker 1: was very fortuitous and serendipitous last year at the Instance

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Speaker 1: Network conference in Phoenix. Now we're New Orleans. Robert Albadova

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Speaker 1: or Robert, thanks.

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Speaker 2: For being here, well, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: And thanks for last year. You were the guy who

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Speaker 1: told me about Jimmy Soto and I was very right place,

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Speaker 1: right time, happy to be able to be of some

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Speaker 1: assistance to the team that was working to free him.

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Speaker 3: And he's like a legend in prison because he's ready

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Speaker 3: to give the law helped like guys get home.

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Speaker 1: You and a number of the other Xogneries told me

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Speaker 1: last year, and I was like, well, that's crazy that

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Speaker 1: he's got everybody else home and he's still there. So

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Speaker 1: fortunately he's not there anymore, and he's never going back,

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Speaker 1: and he's actually going to law school. This fall to

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Speaker 1: Lostwestern is going to be It's one of the greatest

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Speaker 1: stories I've heard in all my years of doing We

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Speaker 1: don't want to give away too much of the end

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Speaker 1: of the story, but we're obviously here, which is great.

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Speaker 1: But how you got here it's horrifying. You ran into

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Speaker 1: one of the worst, most corrupt, most dangerous cops in

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Speaker 1: the country, Chicago Police Detective Ronaldo Guivara, who has been

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Speaker 1: responsible for countless wrongful convictions and incredible huge amounts of

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Speaker 1: payouts to people who he wronged that the taxpayers of

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Speaker 1: Chicago I've had and Illinois have had to foot those bills.

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Speaker 1: But before this happened, what was your life like growing up?

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Speaker 3: You know, my mom raised me and my brothers and sisters.

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Speaker 3: My dad he didn't live with us. He was basically

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Speaker 3: a drug user. My mom she didn't like my father

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Speaker 3: period on my father's side. That's why she can move

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Speaker 3: far away so my brother, my big brother, Charlie, took

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Speaker 3: me from my mom's house always to my grandfather's house

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Speaker 3: and once she showed me that I'd be going there

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Speaker 3: all the time. My father, one of his sisters is

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Speaker 3: my aunt Gladdess, and she basically kind of took me

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Speaker 3: in whenever it summification came.

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Speaker 2: I sticked with her. She like a mom figure. She

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Speaker 2: gave me that love, that attention that I ain't get

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Speaker 2: from my own mom. My mom.

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Speaker 3: She tried to do her best, but my mom also

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Speaker 3: was abusive. She useduld me and my brother, my sisters

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Speaker 3: a lot. The station courts ball bucos. You know, my

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Speaker 3: mom was rough and then also lived in our neighborhood

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Speaker 3: is also rough too. We live in the home Park area.

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Speaker 3: Gang infected. You got many Langton typos, you got Spanish

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Speaker 3: corest instant dragons, drug didders. It's just a low income neighborhood,

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Speaker 3: ampy loss everywhere. And at the time my mom was

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Speaker 3: living in Lan King's neighborhood, and then when my father

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Speaker 3: lived at my grandfather's house, you know folks area, its dragons.

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Speaker 3: You know, also a quiet kid, laid back. You know,

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Speaker 3: I never got to no trouble and then as I

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Speaker 3: got older in my teens, that's when, you know, the

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Speaker 3: gangs came into my life because you all still got

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Speaker 3: to remember us, you guys surviving in the same neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: As we've heard in other Chicago gang cases, gang affiliation

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Speaker 1: is determined by where you live, not by how actively

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Speaker 1: you're involved. Robert became known to the police as being

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Speaker 1: a fil with the Insane Dragons.

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Speaker 4: And here's an interesting piece of this. Robert had no

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Speaker 4: criminal background. He had a couple little my bass yeah,

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Speaker 4: but arrests, no conviction. His rap sheet looks better than mine. Okay,

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Speaker 4: he was a really good kid. There was a gang

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Speaker 4: officer named Mark O'shewsky who basically terrorized Robert on the streets.

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Speaker 4: Robert's girlfriend lived in an area where this police officer

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Speaker 4: sort of lived, kind of adjacent to Humble Park.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yuppie, says, yuppy area of the brick Yard area.

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Speaker 3: She was staying over there, and my cousin also to

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Speaker 3: live over there too, And I was staying there for

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Speaker 3: the summertime, and that's how I met my girlfriend. And

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Speaker 3: during that time I was over there, Osky always harassed

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Speaker 3: me because I stand out, you know, I had to

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Speaker 3: back your clothes, pushed back hat, shaggy.

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Speaker 5: He's a pretty boy.

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Speaker 2: You know, he said, Okay, I was.

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Speaker 3: So so that time he's seen me, he pulled me

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Speaker 3: over and one time he asked me, you know where

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Speaker 3: you're from.

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Speaker 2: I said, I'm from Home and Park.

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Speaker 3: He was like, man, take your spic ass back to

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Speaker 3: the home park because he's like, fuck up this area.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, I looked at him, like really, And ever

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Speaker 3: since then he's just keep my hangrassing me.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, one of the things that stuck out

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Speaker 1: when I was researching your case, I'm reading about how

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Speaker 1: you were categorized as a member of the Insane Dragons gang,

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Speaker 1: and then I'm looking at the alibi. Roberto worked an

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Speaker 1: eleven hour shift at Farley's Chocolate Company on August thirty first,

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Speaker 1: nineteen nighty four, and left work at five pm, then

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Speaker 1: took a bus to Wilbur Wright College, where he attended

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Speaker 1: a class until ten pm, and then took a bus home,

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Speaker 1: where he remained the rest of the night. That would

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Speaker 1: make you the world's most industrious and studious and responsible

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Speaker 1: gang member in the history of the gang culture. Right,

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Speaker 1: But there's a very logical explanation for why that is.

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Speaker 2: My girlfriend got pregnant.

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Speaker 3: I like, I want to be there for my daughter,

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Speaker 3: and I know by being that lifestyle I won't be

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Speaker 3: able to. So I left it alone. We moved in

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Speaker 3: with my guys. Job that went to right cottage, right

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Speaker 3: cottage base. He provided once you get GD you could

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Speaker 3: pick up a trade and that's my goal.

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Speaker 2: Say with that money, give my own place and be

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Speaker 2: there for my daughter.

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Speaker 5: It was really on the right path.

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Speaker 3: And the funny thing about that, before I ever got

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Speaker 3: locked up with is case.

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Speaker 2: I was walking with my girlfriend.

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Speaker 3: Osski drove out to me and said, man, you know,

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Speaker 3: education guys haven't cast you yet, but why I do

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Speaker 3: get you?

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Speaker 2: You going down for a long time. And this when

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Speaker 2: Loui shit happened, you know.

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Speaker 1: And then shortly before one am on September one, nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety four, a car pulled up in front of a

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Speaker 1: department building in the thirty nine hundred block of West

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Speaker 1: Cortland in Chicago. A passenger fired several gunshots at a

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Speaker 1: group of people. Amy Mrkez and Jorge Rodriguez, who were

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Speaker 1: both eighteen years old, were killed. Twenty year old Jacqueline

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Speaker 1: Grande was shot in the back, but she survived. And

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Speaker 1: another teenager named Kenneally Saiez gove behind a parked car

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Speaker 1: when the shots erupted and somehow miraculously escaped injury. And

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Speaker 1: then the Chicago Police detective Ronaldo Guivara, who our listeners

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Speaker 1: will recognize, gets involved and this night eron folded.

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Speaker 4: You know, when I started handling these cases involved Reygavara,

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Speaker 4: I first came with this idea that when you were

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Speaker 4: framed by a police officer, there must be some reason,

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Speaker 4: like prior history, there's some retaliation, there's something right.

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Speaker 5: And what I came.

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Speaker 4: To learn and Robert's case is a perfect example of it,

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Speaker 4: is no sometimes he just framed people because he could,

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Speaker 4: and he didn't.

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Speaker 5: Care who it was.

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Speaker 4: Robert had no prior involvement with Reygaevera, And I think

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Speaker 4: what happened is this shooting happens September one, Area five,

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Speaker 4: with Gavara being the big player there. They're not interested

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Speaker 4: in getting the right person finding justice for the family

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Speaker 4: of these victims. They are interested in closing a case

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Speaker 4: as quickly as possible, and it doesn't matter who because

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Speaker 4: all of the young Latino men in Humboldt Park are fungible, interchangeable,

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Speaker 4: doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: It's a body for a body, right exactly.

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Speaker 5: It did not matter.

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Speaker 4: There was nothing about you know, letting the facts lead

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Speaker 4: you to. You know, what detectors are supposed to do.

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Speaker 4: And the way they would do it is they would

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Speaker 4: work backwards. They would decide based on where the shooting

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Speaker 4: took place and which gangs were at odds with each other,

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Speaker 4: and then say it must be someone from this gang,

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Speaker 4: and then we will narrow the pool from there. So

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Speaker 4: this shooting, they came up with the idea that it

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Speaker 4: was an insane dragon. There's actually never been any real

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Speaker 4: good evidence that the shooting was carried out by an

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Speaker 4: insane dragon, but that's.

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Speaker 5: What they started with.

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Speaker 4: So, because Robert's prior association was with the insane dragons,

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Speaker 4: and this Olshefsky guy, you know, had it out for Robert,

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Speaker 4: Olshevski was like, a I got a guy for you,

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Speaker 4: and Cavarro was like cool. And here's an interesting piece

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Speaker 4: of this. They didn't have any photos of him because

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Speaker 4: he really had not been in much trouble. So Olshefsky

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Speaker 4: He's like, I know where the kid's cousin hangs out.

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Speaker 4: So they literally did a pretextual arrest of him and

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Speaker 4: his cousin so that they get the polaroid of him

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Speaker 4: to then go manipulate the witnesses.

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Speaker 3: So he was rasking my cousin too, And so my

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Speaker 3: uncle decided on what we're going to sell the house.

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Speaker 2: We're going to move because his k keep my harasses.

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Speaker 3: Then night she's talking about at the time, the house

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Speaker 3: is empty, basically, you know, it's just college refrigerator. Oh

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Speaker 3: SESTI came by the light at the house. My cousin's like, man,

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Speaker 3: I went with talks to him like, man, I go

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Speaker 3: out there to talk to him. Man, you walk in here,

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Speaker 3: he's gonna see us. He's gonna be down some bullshit basically,

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Speaker 3: And sure enough, that's what happened. And soon as she

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Speaker 3: walked in, he's seeing us get on the fucking floor.

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Speaker 2: I was like, wait a minute, you know, where's your

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Speaker 2: warring at. You can't just do this.

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Speaker 3: He's like, shut the fuck up, him in the back

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Speaker 3: of your head with the pistol, let us down. He

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Speaker 3: wait to the backup, came searched the house, you know,

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Speaker 3: and somehow they found dulfa bag with its shotgun. Allegedly,

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Speaker 3: they had us on the ground. They snatched my cousin up.

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Speaker 3: They took her to the back room and you can

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Speaker 3: hear him just hit him, beating up my cousin. Boom

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Speaker 3: boom boom, and he come out the room, he crying.

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Speaker 3: He said, do you know anything about this murder that happened?

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Speaker 3: I said, I don't know nothing about no damn murder.

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Speaker 3: After that, it took us to Grand Sancho. It was

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Speaker 3: like four of us to put us in a room.

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Speaker 3: And mind you're like, I got arrested by Shiskey so

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Speaker 3: many times I be by myself.

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Speaker 2: He locked me up from my bass, Like what the fuck?

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Speaker 3: Just harassment, just harassment. Then, I mean so many He

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Speaker 3: never took my porteror picture ever. So this time around

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Speaker 3: he went to the drawer and put out that camera,

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Speaker 3: the poor camera, take our pictures, and then they let

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Speaker 3: you go. Right then, like a week later, I get

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Speaker 3: arrested for this murder.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, September eleventh, so it was ten days after the crime.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well yeah, they had to go, you know, manipulate the witnesses.

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Speaker 4: And as you pointed out, the Robert had an airtight

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Speaker 4: alibi for the time of the crime. Absolutely he had

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Speaker 4: worked at Farley's Candies, where his aunts worked.

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Speaker 5: He had to clack in and out.

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Speaker 4: Then he went to his classes and even his teacher

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Speaker 4: signed an affid David long Ago saying, yeah, he was

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Speaker 4: in class that night. And then you know, he took

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Speaker 4: the bus home. His girlfriend wasn't home with the baby,

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Speaker 4: and he was kind of upset that it was so

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Speaker 4: late and she wasn't home with the baby. And she

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Speaker 4: got home and they have screaming match, yelling for like hours,

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Speaker 4: and his aunts actually called his cousin and said, Junior,

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Speaker 4: they call him Junior in the family and Sassy are fighting.

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Speaker 4: Can you come try to you know, come, and they came.

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Speaker 4: There were so many alibi witnesses and this is all

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Speaker 4: at the exact same time that this murder was going down.

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Speaker 1: Of course that didn't matter. I mean, you could have

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Speaker 1: been playing center for the bulls in front of twenty

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Speaker 1: thousand people. They still would have convicted you.

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Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, So Gavera basically took a polaroid of Robert

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Speaker 4: and got Kenney Saez, who was in a gang. Obviously

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Speaker 4: his best friend and his girlfriend was killed. Emotions running high.

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Speaker 4: You want vengeance, and a cop says to you, this

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Speaker 4: is the guy who did it. All you got to

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Speaker 4: do is go in and identify him. He's like, I'll

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Speaker 4: go along with that. Sure, even though now he says

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Speaker 4: I never saw who did it.

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Speaker 1: No, he's busy diving a car, looked trying to stay alive. Yeah, yes,

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Speaker 1: that's pretty hard to see. And of course then there's

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Speaker 1: the added pressure if you want to get somebody because

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Speaker 1: you were there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Kennelly, he says, gave some very powerful testimony at

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Speaker 4: his evidentiary hearing. He felt so guilty. He was in

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Speaker 4: a gang, he was out there, his girlfriend, she came

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Speaker 4: to see him. You know, he's like, I can't possibly

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Speaker 4: not do this when my girlfriend shot and killed. You know,

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Speaker 4: the family is upset with me, as it is.

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Speaker 1: And this is also a period in time when the

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Speaker 1: Chicago PD was torturing not only suspects but also witnesses.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, Gavarro, there's a history of that people who he

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Speaker 4: wanted as witnesses, who were uncooperative.

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Speaker 5: They then got targeted.

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Speaker 1: So you were arrested September eleventh, ten days after this

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Speaker 1: horrible crime, and.

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Speaker 2: Then that guy locked up. They basically asked me about

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Speaker 2: the murder.

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Speaker 3: I teld him I didn't do nothing, and then they

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Speaker 3: basically telling listen, I guess your buddy in the room,

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Speaker 3: saying that you did it. I'm like, I don't care

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Speaker 3: who you got. You can have Jesus, I didn't do

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Speaker 3: this shit. You got the wrong person. So they put

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Speaker 3: us in the lineup. And that's why I met see Willie,

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Speaker 3: my cult defendant.

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Speaker 2: That's Willy. What the fuck? I don't know?

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Speaker 3: I said, man, you know, did you do this? Or

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Speaker 3: I ain't doing none of this. So they put us

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Speaker 3: in the lineup. Of course, the witnesses point us out,

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Speaker 3: and then they charged us for the murder. And now

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Speaker 3: I'm handcuffed to the wall in the room by myself,

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Speaker 3: just got the shitty look, tears in my eye. I think,

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Speaker 3: I'm not I can't believe this is happening to me.

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Speaker 3: And I never met this guy in my life, Guerrero,

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Speaker 3: so I don't know why he stashed me up. And

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Speaker 3: then the door opened up, olshshky stick his head in,

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Speaker 3: liot at me and say gotcha, and he closed the

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Speaker 3: door out of this motherfucker. And that's why I put

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Speaker 3: it together.

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Speaker 5: Gotcha.

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Speaker 1: It's fucking sinister, isn't it.

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Speaker 4: It's sinister. And when we deposed him. I asked him

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Speaker 4: about that. He didn't really deny it. He said, I

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Speaker 4: don't know if I said that. I may have said

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Speaker 4: I told you. I'm like, well, it's pretty similar.

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Speaker 2: So Shesky was how Grero got a wow.

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Speaker 5: Basically, yeah, I.

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Speaker 4: Mean police officers would go to Gavera to do the

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Speaker 4: dirty work.

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Speaker 5: It wasn't just him doing it.

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Speaker 4: They were all dirty, but they would get Goavera to

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Speaker 4: do the heavy lifting.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this

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Speaker 1: and all the Lava for Good podcasts one week early

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00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,360
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Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 3: The process of going to kind of jail, they're lying

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Speaker 3: up against the wall. You gotta get asshole naked right

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Speaker 3: next to somebody else right next to you. Officers coming

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Speaker 3: down make you bend over with spasce cheeks. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's just embarrassing, you know, And then that's just that.

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Speaker 3: You guys see the doctor, they call him the dick doctor.

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Speaker 3: So you go in there, you take a que tip

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Speaker 3: or something and pinion pee hope as shit was just

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Speaker 3: like what the fuck?

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Speaker 4: Nineteen years old too, so young, never had this experience.

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Speaker 3: Never in my life. I wait, what one p thirty

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Speaker 3: five parties soaking wet? You know, skinny kid, you know

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Speaker 3: I got up front. I was you know, I was scared.

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Speaker 3: You walk in there and your pack of people just

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Speaker 3: looking at you, which should be about the screaming to

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Speaker 3: like what the David gangs, you know they run everything

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Speaker 3: basically in there. You don't find the rules, You'll be asked,

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Speaker 3: will stabbed, may be killed. It was just a a

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Speaker 3: whole nother world.

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Speaker 2: Man. Wow.

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Speaker 1: So this is September of nineteen ninety four. I'm assuming

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Speaker 1: there was either no bail or an unreachable amount of bail.

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Speaker 2: Right, And there's no bail. They give us no bail,

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Speaker 2: no bail at all.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So now now you're in there for fourteen months

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Speaker 1: awaiting trial.

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Speaker 2: Right, First of all, stay attorney was sticking at death.

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Speaker 4: Pending on a nineteen year old with no criminal history.

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Speaker 1: The death penalty, which is reserved for the worst of.

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Speaker 5: The worst, the worst of the worst.

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Speaker 1: It's a sure for anyone because we shouldn't have a

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Speaker 1: death penalty.

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Speaker 5: But that's agreed, agreed, it should be for no one.

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Speaker 2: I was scared. I was scared. It wanted to kill him,

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Speaker 2: murdered me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Jennifer, why don't you take.

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Speaker 2: Us through this?

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Speaker 4: It was an incredibly weak case and hinged entirely on

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Speaker 4: the testimony of two witnesses who were manipulated to some

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Speaker 4: degree into making identifications. We had Jackie Grande, who actually

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Speaker 4: admitted to Robert's prior lawyer that preceded his trial attorney,

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Speaker 4: that she had essentially been shown who to pick out.

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Speaker 5: And then Kennily Sayez.

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Speaker 4: Prior to trial, admitted that Gavara had shown him a

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Speaker 4: photograph and said this is who you need to choose

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Speaker 4: in the lineup. He admitted it prior to trial, and

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Speaker 4: then guess what happened. Shockingly, he was arrested himself and

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Speaker 4: they were like, you're going to have to go back

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Speaker 4: to your original story or you know, we can really

365
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Speaker 4: fuck your life up. And so by the time he

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Speaker 4: hit the stand, he was back with the lie. So

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Speaker 4: we now have two witnesses who, even if they were

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Speaker 4: not manipulated, wouldn't have giving reliable testimony because, as we

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Speaker 4: pointed out earlier, the circumstances under which this shooting happened,

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Speaker 4: the shooter is shooting from the back of a car,

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Speaker 4: are in a dark street seconds people trying to avoid

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Speaker 4: getting hit by bully.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean, under the best of circumstances, you wouldn't be

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Speaker 4: able to rely on those identifications. And now you have

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Speaker 4: police officers saying this is who you need to pick out,

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Speaker 4: and Robert's alibi they put the alibi defense on. But

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Speaker 4: the end of the day in the nineties, the police

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Speaker 4: win and he went to prison, sentenced to life.

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Speaker 1: November thirtieth, nineteen ninety five, you and Willie Nigron convicted

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Speaker 1: the first degree murders for the deaths of Rodriguez and Murcus,

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Speaker 1: and attempted murder and aggravated battery of Siaz Grande, and

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Speaker 1: each sentence to life without parole. We know the cops

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Speaker 1: knew that you were innocent. Do you think the prosecutors knew?

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Speaker 5: I don't know how they couldn't have.

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Speaker 3: You know, I was blessed to have a family that

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Speaker 3: was there for me, especially my aunt Gladdness.

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Speaker 2: She did everything.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she did everything for me everything. I got sentiment

390
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Speaker 3: the ark eight hours away from the city at the time.

391
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Speaker 3: My daughter was like think three years old. My aunt

392
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Speaker 3: God bless herself. She paid for my lawyer fee. She

393
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Speaker 3: set my phone calls. She sent me money, my own

394
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Speaker 3: mob that shit. But my aunt did everything for me.

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Speaker 3: At the end of the day, she ken't be going.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, she got them through.

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Speaker 3: My other aunts to be married to the Irish there

398
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Speaker 3: there too. But the one that took the blovet what's

399
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Speaker 3: my aunt gladness And that's just her husband.

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Speaker 2: He's like, you know, do what you need to do.

401
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Speaker 5: Tell people, Yeah, they mortgaged their house to buy.

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Speaker 3: These are not rich people, no and sacrifice. She live

403
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Speaker 3: in the basement of her father's house on finished basement

404
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,320
Speaker 3: to help pay the loan that she took out to

405
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Speaker 3: pay for her lawyers, so they had to live in

406
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Speaker 3: the fucking home, finished.

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Speaker 4: Basement, and then would also go to protests. You know,

408
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Speaker 4: they were out there advocating as well, like actually trying

409
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Speaker 4: to bring attention to.

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Speaker 2: The case, to the case.

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Speaker 3: Then one day I'm in the yard and I met

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Speaker 3: this guy Angel Rodriguez, right, yeah, Asie Rodriguez, basically from

413
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Speaker 3: the same neighborhood that he told him by his case.

414
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:33,919
Speaker 3: He said, I got convera too, and he told him

415
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Speaker 3: by his sister is trying to form it a committee

416
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Speaker 3: of run COVID. The people with family members so he

417
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Speaker 3: gave me his sister phone number against him, my aunt,

418
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Speaker 3: and they formed this committee we demand justice from there.

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Speaker 2: He just blew up.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's an incredible story of sort of the community,

421
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:55,359
Speaker 4: largely women, the ants, the sisters, you know, mothers, coming

422
00:20:55,359 --> 00:21:00,359
Speaker 4: together having loved ones who are incarcerated, who they leave

423
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 4: our innocent by sharing those stories amongst themselves. They're like

424
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Speaker 4: Gavara's on your case. They did spreadsheets, they made the

425
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 4: connection that Gavarro was framing their loved ones, and they

426
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,840
Speaker 4: were out there protesting, rallying, and even trying to bring

427
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Speaker 4: it to the Chicago Police department. They even went to

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Speaker 4: the FBI in the nineties and was really fucked up.

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Speaker 5: Is the FBI knew it.

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Speaker 4: They knew it because Gavara was doing business with Joe Mazinowski,

431
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Speaker 4: who's a notoriously corrupt police officer, and they look the

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Speaker 4: other way.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty depressing, you know, We've got such a long

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Speaker 1: history of doing these shows. I don't know, but I

435
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Speaker 1: think if anyone actually did an analysis, I think you'd

436
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,360
Speaker 1: find more women who are heroes in these stories than

437
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 1: anyone wouldn't have any reason to expect. It's amazing because

438
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,640
Speaker 1: the courage that it took. They were putting their liberty

439
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 1: at risk as well, because these cops would stop at nothing.

440
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 1: So we're going to dedicate this episode to them. But

441
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 1: how did this get resolved?

442
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:58,679
Speaker 5: I'll give you the quick version.

443
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,560
Speaker 4: Evidence was being red field of this pattern and practice

444
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 4: of misconduct of Reygavara. Northwestern had done some amazing work.

445
00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 4: Jane Railey started developing evidence.

446
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 1: Another super woman.

447
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 4: Another super really and put all this evidence together that

448
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 4: you know, the guys started having access to right. They

449
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 4: didn't necessarily have access for a lawyer or money for

450
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 4: a lawyer, but they were able to put together pro

451
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 4: say post conviction petitions, meaning they wrote them themselves.

452
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 1: As we mentioned earlier, Robert joined forces with an incredible

453
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 1: jail house lawyer named Jimmy Sodo.

454
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a seminari about two or three years.

455
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 3: He's like a legend of the law. I picked his mind,

456
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 3: he helped me out, and the basically he got me home.

457
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 4: Jimmy Soto, did your pro say petition right, basically saying

458
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,199
Speaker 4: there's this pattern in practice misconduct. I was framed by

459
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 4: this guy and he manipulated the eyewitness testimony goes into

460
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 4: a petition of course, you know, the judge immediately dismissed it.

461
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 5: It went up on appeal.

462
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 4: The appellate court said no, it should go back four

463
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 4: additional proceedings under the Post Conviction Hearing Act. And then

464
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,000
Speaker 4: I think Robert got my name from Jimmy Soda exactly.

465
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 2: And that sent her letter as a copy of my opinion.

466
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 4: The appellate court opinion. That sent it back for further proceedings.

467
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 2: And that's when she gave me a call and.

468
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 5: I came and visited him.

469
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:17,679
Speaker 2: And that first phone call was awesome.

470
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 1: Though, what year is that?

471
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 2: Thirteen?

472
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 3: You know, you get these cous from lawyers, you'd be

473
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 3: all professional. Her started talking to one of the guys

474
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 3: from the street. She's cursedly laughing right like. She sounded

475
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 3: like a truck driver.

476
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 2: You know.

477
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,439
Speaker 3: I'm like, wow, cool. So my only question to her was,

478
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 3: you know, when shit they'll go your way? Are you

479
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:35,960
Speaker 3: going to talk to your wrong She's like, fuck no,

480
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 3: I'm gonna fight this case all the way, so you

481
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 3: come home.

482
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 2: I said, all right, cool, Bet, I want you to

483
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 2: represent me in the rest.

484
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 5: It's history, this history.

485
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 4: So we were in front of a judge. Judge Lynn

486
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 4: was not his original trial judge, but had presided over

487
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,880
Speaker 4: his post conviction proceedings and had summarily shut him down.

488
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 5: I was not a fan. He was not a fan

489
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 5: of me.

490
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 1: Great place to start there.

491
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I told Robert from the stuff, I don't

492
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 4: think we're going to fucking win.

493
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:02,440
Speaker 5: In front of this guy.

494
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 2: I agree with her too.

495
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's already ruled against you. For him to admit

496
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 4: he had gotten it wrong, he's such an egotistical maniac.

497
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 4: He's not going to do it. So we have to

498
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 4: prepare to win before the appellate court. So we started

499
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 4: an evidentiary hearing that lasted two years, not straight every day,

500
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 4: but one day of testimony the next day. I mean,

501
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 4: it went on for quite some time. And this was

502
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 4: in the Anita Alvarez days pre Kim Fox, so the

503
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 4: state they weren't hearing anything about innocence. And I don't

504
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 4: know how many times he threatened to hold me in contempt,

505
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 4: but it was a number. I got to the point

506
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 4: I'm like, bring it, you keep threatening it, do it.

507
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 2: That is my family was terrified. Don't do this. I

508
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 2: don't want to get locked up. No, she doing what

509
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 2: she needs to do.

510
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 4: Oh no, He would be like Ms Boungie, you are

511
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,960
Speaker 4: so unprofessional sometimes, and I said, and you are sexist.

512
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,439
Speaker 4: I would put everything on the record, and he just

513
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 4: did not know what to do with me. He didn't

514
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 4: really want to lock me up, but he wanted to

515
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 4: threaten it to control me.

516
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: But despite this contentious relationship and what appeared to be

517
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: like an allergy to evidence of actual innocence, outside of

518
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: these proceedings, not only had Kim Fox been elected as

519
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: Cook County State's Attorney, but also an independent investigation into

520
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: Quevara was underway in which they chose four of his

521
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 1: cases as examples, and one of them was Roberts.

522
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 4: So we have the city of Chicago hiring a private

523
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 4: law firm, Siddley and Austin, a big fancy law firm,

524
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 4: to do this investigation that concludes that Robert's more likely

525
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 4: than not innocent. We even brought it before the judge,

526
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 4: is part of our post conviction evidence. Didn't move the

527
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 4: needle at all. So we continued to fight, and Kim

528
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 4: Fox then came into office. So we're going into closing

529
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 4: arguments for our post conviction proceeedings. And I remember that

530
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 4: weekend just having such a pit in my stomach that

531
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 4: I just knew that this judge was going to fuck us,

532
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 4: And I said, you know what, I'm going to pack

533
00:25:58,160 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 4: that courtroom. We are going to have a big pro

534
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,680
Speaker 4: test that day. We are going to bring attention because

535
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 4: if he's gonna fuck us, I want everybody to see it.

536
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 5: I want the.

537
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 4: Newspapers there to see it. And Monday we show up,

538
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 4: big protest outside. We go to the courtroom. The courtroom

539
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 4: is filled. I argued the hell out of this case.

540
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 4: And at one point the state's attorney turned around to

541
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 4: the audience the gallery and she's like, do you think

542
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 4: I would be up here if I believed Ray Gavarro

543
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 4: was a bad cop?

544
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 5: And you could hear everybody going uh huh.

545
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 1: Yes.

546
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,360
Speaker 4: There was like this collective silently though it wasn't like disruptive,

547
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 4: but it was just this incredible energy, and the judge

548
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 4: was so angry about it. I was convinced he was

549
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 4: going to still fuck us. He isn't going to make

550
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 4: his ruling that day. We go in the back and

551
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 4: Celeste says to me, that's the state's attorney. She goes,

552
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 4: will he take time served? We can reduce it? Wants

553
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 4: to now cut a deal and I went back to him.

554
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 2: I'm like, fuck, no.

555
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 4: No, And then I immediately leaked it to BuzzFeed that

556
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 4: they had made that offer, because you know, it's despicable.

557
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 4: And then the state ultimately reached out. Kim Fox called

558
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 4: me directly. She said, you know, I'm new to the office,

559
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 4: I'm getting up to speed, and you know, we didn't

560
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 4: really realize what was going on. They ultimately did the

561
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 4: right thing to agree to post conviction relief and dismiss

562
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 4: his case. And I got to hand it to them

563
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 4: because the first assistant, Eric Susman, called the judge up.

564
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 4: He told the judge, we might want to get counsel

565
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 4: on the phone for mister Elmodovar. I just want to

566
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 4: let you know some developments in our office, Judge, and

567
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:39,959
Speaker 4: he's like, no, we don't need we don't need her

568
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 4: to tell me what's going on now. That's completely ex

569
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 4: party in inappropriate. You cannot be having one sided conversations,

570
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 4: absolute judicial misconduct. And Susman says, we want to agree

571
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 4: to relief and vacate the convictions, and the judge goes,

572
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 4: why are you going to do that.

573
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 5: I'm going to rule your way.

574
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, ex party, and to their credit, they said, thank you.

575
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: Let's talk about a rig system, right, that's gross.

576
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 4: After Eric Susman gave this deposition that the judge demanded

577
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 4: the next party conversation and basically said I'm going to

578
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,680
Speaker 4: rule your way. I got that deposition and I walked

579
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 4: into Judge Lynn's courtroom like two years later.

580
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 5: I sat in the front row.

581
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 4: And he hates to see me in there. He's like,

582
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 4: ms Bongi, and you have something in here? I said, well, Judge,

583
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 4: actually I was hoping to get a minute of your

584
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 4: time in chambers. And he's like, do I need approver?

585
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 4: I said, yeah, bring one. Approver is like a witness

586
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 4: to the conversation. And I said I'll bring my own.

587
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 4: So we went back there and I said, here's the transcript.

588
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 4: I think it's absolutely despicable. Basically what you did, Jennifer.

589
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 4: That's not how I remember going down exactly. I don't

590
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 4: remember it going down that way. Oh well, A former

591
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 4: US attorney and an assistant States Attorney under Oath said

592
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 4: something different, but you should have this.

593
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: You held him in contempt.

594
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 5: I did. I held him in contempt.

595
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: So finally, when did you actually walk out.

596
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 3: After the closing argument? Thursday, I get a call and

597
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 3: I got some good news. You coming home, Like when

598
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 3: like tomorrow you coming home from I was like, get them.

599
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 3: I'm like, no, no, you already coming home tomorrow. And

600
00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 3: for so real, you know, you think about this day,

601
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 3: you dream about it. And she actually telling me why

602
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 3: I want to hear. So I'm just ecstatic. I'm happy.

603
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 3: I'm a clown. Nine.

604
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 2: As I'm walking out.

605
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 3: I see my friend of mine that we were locked

606
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 3: up together him and are He does a barber I

607
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 3: tell him I'm coming home. I beat my case, no fuck,

608
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 3: and we hugged right there in the hallway. He's crying.

609
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 3: I'm crying. I was like, man, hey, can't get a haircut.

610
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 3: He's like, man, walk in the barbershop. And while my

611
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 3: guy gave him a haircut, he telling everybody about my case.

612
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 3: So everybody walking us and me touched me trying to

613
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 3: get that luck, good luck off of them.

614
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 2: And when they fighting, just dropped the case and everything.

615
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 2: It was mad.

616
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 3: He wasn't happy about it because he wanted to not

617
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 3: my ass, but unfortunately he didn't even get what he wants,

618
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 3: so fuck him and were walking until you get processed.

619
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 3: And this is the part that kind of felt so

620
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 3: real to me. They took me to the room. Ain't

621
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 3: got my clothes. I took the clothes off. I pay

622
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 3: on street clothes, and one of the officers she looked

623
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 3: at me and said, man, you look good.

624
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 2: I'm gonna walk you by the lady lock up. They're

625
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 2: gonna love you. So she did that. All the ladies

626
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 2: are screaming, hey, Poppy, what's up going on?

627
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 3: But anyway, and I'm sending down the way to get

628
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 3: my fringing prints and my picture taken. I was sitting down.

629
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 3: I see a bus coming in Gay's on the noon,

630
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 3: coming into the county getting processed in. I don't look

631
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 3: at that. I just thinking about that when I first

632
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 3: came in. That was me twenty three years ago. And

633
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,239
Speaker 3: after they took my picture of my fringing prince. So

634
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 3: as I walk up, I see everybody. I see my

635
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 3: baby girl right there, my daughter, Jasmine, and she's just

636
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 3: jumping my arm, gave me a big hug, and I'm like,

637
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 3: he's dreaming about this type of shit all my life.

638
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 3: When I got lot Us, she was six months old.

639
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 3: I come out, she's a young lady, twenty three years old,

640
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 3: you know, And it was so emotional. One of the

641
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 3: bit beside her being born, is like one of the

642
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 3: best ever in my life. And then run into that crowd,

643
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 3: seeing my father, my aunt hugging my ass saying that

644
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 3: we finally did it. You know, we fucking did it.

645
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 3: We're here and seeing Jennifer. It was just it was amazing.

646
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 3: Buzzfree was there.

647
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, they recorded the whole thing, the whole live stream, did.

648
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 2: I It was just it was a good Friday too.

649
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 2: I will never forget it.

650
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: Wow. Well, that's a great place to wrap this up.

651
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: But we always have one special feature of the show

652
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: called Closing Arguments where I think both of you again,

653
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: and then I'm gonna turn my microphone off, kick back

654
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: in my chair and listen to anything else you think

655
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: we may have left out. Why don't you go first,

656
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: Jennifer and what do you got?

657
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 4: There's so many stories associated with Robert's case. You know,

658
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 4: I've been representing him a very long time. I've known

659
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 4: his family a long time, and I remember, you know,

660
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 4: the first time I went to visit him at Minard

661
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 4: and they always say, you know, you're doing the time

662
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 4: or the time to do it, you you know, And

663
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 4: I think some people have this fortitude to survive these conditions,

664
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 4: and I frankly don't know that I would ever have it.

665
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 4: And I've seen people who have it and people who don't,

666
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 4: and it's heartbreaking obviously for people that prison is doing them.

667
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 4: But Robert, you know, he came in for the visit,

668
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 4: giant smile on his face. I was like, this guy,

669
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 4: you would think he was coming in from like the

670
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 4: country club or something like. He's so positive and he

671
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 4: has a natural life sentence and there are no guarantees

672
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 4: that I'm going to be able to get him home.

673
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 4: This system has not worked for him. Just this incredible optimism.

674
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 4: It just blew me away. And even when I had

675
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 4: to deliver you know, some bad news or you know,

676
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 4: we things were stacked against us not looking good, never

677
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 4: ever lost his optimism, his again fortitude. I don't know

678
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 4: how else to describe it. And it's like no other

679
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 4: person I really ever met. And then to come out

680
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 4: and just be doing great work. He works as a

681
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 4: clerk for US in Chicago, and that means all types

682
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,479
Speaker 4: of things. He runs a lot of errands, but he

683
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 4: also does important work of getting recent axonneries back on

684
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 4: their feet, helps them navigate a system they're not familiar with.

685
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 4: He even watched my daughter's dog in Chicago who bid him?

686
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 4: So you know, he puts up with a lot. But

687
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 4: he's a writer.

688
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 5: Die.

689
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 4: We are forever bonded as friends apart from you know,

690
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 4: this incredible relationship as attorney client, but you know, I

691
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 4: consider him one of my best friends.

692
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 2: Wow, thank you.

693
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:34,959
Speaker 3: I mean, I love this woman to the you know,

694
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 3: I told I do anything for her, and she's amazing.

695
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 3: She walked the walk at the end of the day,

696
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 3: you know, and she's real, she's one hundred. There's no

697
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:43,959
Speaker 3: fucking around with her. She just told you like it is.

698
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 3: And that's what I love about her, you know. Besides her,

699
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 3: and know Javii Solo, you know, big influence in my life.

700
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 3: Another friend of mine named top Dog. He also kind

701
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 3: of helped me on two of my posts, you know.

702
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 3: And also Melissa Sagora she's a reporter for Buzzfree News

703
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 3: and she wrote the story about my story also all

704
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 3: the covers.

705
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a curt Well. I think like two years

706
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 2: to write that story.

707
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 4: I think she did a lot of good investigative journalists

708
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 4: amazing work.

709
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 2: I love her too. She did a great job and

710
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: bought the light to Mike Kate.

711
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

712
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one

713
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: week early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on

714
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team Connor

715
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as my fellow executive

716
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Cliburn. The music

717
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,240
Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated

718
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across all

719
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: social media platforms at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction.

720
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,280
Speaker 1: You can also follow me on Instagram at It's Jason Flamm.

721
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts

722
00:34:52,520 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: and association with Signal Company Number one