1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: I'm Rebecca Levoy and this is you Can't Make This Up. 2 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 1: You Can't Make This Up as the podcast where we 3 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: uncover the true stories behind your favorite Netflix documentaries and films. 4 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: On today's episode, we take a closer look at the 5 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,800 Speaker 1: Netflix documentary film Bitcomned. 6 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 2: We didn't know anything about this fucking business, but it 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 2: didn't matter at all. 8 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 3: It was too easy. 9 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: We lied, we cheated, and made millions of dollars, and 10 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 2: now I'm facing over onundred years. 11 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: Today we're talking to director Brian Storkel. At the height 12 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: of the bitcoin boom, Ray for Pani and his friends 13 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: created a debit card for cryptocurrency. Even though the technology 14 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: didn't work and the card was a scam, Centritech was 15 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: making millions of dollars a day, but anyone looking at 16 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: the operation would discover cut and paste business plans, fake executives, 17 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: and glitchy technology. Once they tried to pass themselves off 18 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: to The New York Times as legitimate, the whole thing 19 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: fell apart. 20 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 3: Bitcoon. 21 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: Let's Trapanie tell a story of fun, fame, and fraud 22 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: as he awaits sentencing for the first high profile case 23 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: of the crypto era. Was it real? No? But did 24 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: it work. 25 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 4: Maybe people can't give up on the promise, and part 26 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 4: of that promise is just the simple one that you 27 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 4: can get rich quickly. 28 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: And I'm joined by director Brian Storkel. Brian, Welcome to 29 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: You Can't make This up. 30 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 3: Hey, thanks for having me. 31 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: So this story is about the rise and fall of 32 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: a cryptocurrency based product from a company called Center Tech, 33 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: and it's mostly total from the perspective of Ray Trapani. 34 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: So we hear from the top that he was caught 35 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: in a crypto scam and at that moment was awaiting 36 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: sentencing for his role in that scam. Why did Ray 37 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: agree to talk with you? 38 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 5: You know, that's a really good question, and I should 39 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 5: ask him that again. 40 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 3: Now that we're that we're done with this. 41 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 5: Some people just like to talk, I think, and he 42 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 5: had a great story and really wanted to share it, 43 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 5: I think part of it without giving too much away, 44 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 5: But he's you know, gone through the process of you know, everything, 45 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,239 Speaker 5: having to deal with his case and is kind of 46 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 5: able to talk about it more now. 47 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,519 Speaker 1: Yeah. So Ray says in the beginning that growing up 48 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: he always wanted to be a criminal, and at first 49 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 1: I thought he was being you know, maybe a little 50 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: self reflective, a little bit of nuance there, but he 51 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: literally says I always wanted to be a criminal. And 52 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: I didn't miss it right, Like he wasn't being nuanced. 53 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: He kind of always wanted to be a criminal. 54 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 5: No, Yeah, we asked him that multiple times. I mean, 55 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 5: that's a very I haven't heard anyone else say that 56 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 5: ever since I was a kid, I've always wanted to 57 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 5: be a criminal. It was never like I'm going to 58 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 5: be a doctor or I'm going to be a scientist. 59 00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 5: I you know, if I could have put it in 60 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 5: my eyearbook, I would have put I wanted to a criminal. 61 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 5: And I think it had to do with, you know, 62 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 5: being around his grandpa and the image that his grandfather 63 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 5: portrayed was something he looked up to, which was somewhat criminal. 64 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 5: It's questionable as to say whether it was, you know, 65 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 5: definitively criminal, but the image he saw was very much 66 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 5: scarface or you know, some you know, mobster type grandfather. 67 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: The imagery of your interviews with Ray is really interesting 68 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: and great. The scenes that he's in and throughout the film, 69 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: you cut back and forth to him getting fitted for 70 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: this custom suit and the tailor keeps asking him questions 71 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: about his life also, and they're getting good answers the 72 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: people in the room with him, you know, helping him 73 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: fit the suit. So did you plan that to have 74 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: the tailors ask him questions or were they just good 75 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,119 Speaker 1: conversationalists because of the work that they do with men 76 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: like Ray. 77 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, that was a beautiful little accident, honestly, Like, we 78 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 5: did one main interview with Ray, and then we took 79 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 5: him back to a bunch of locations where we were 80 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 5: going to do little mini interviews, and this was this 81 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 5: was kind of one of those I was gonna after 82 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 5: he got the suit try, you know, fitted, We were 83 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 5: going to have him stand there and answer a couple 84 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 5: of questions. But we kind of framed up the camera 85 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 5: so that he was looking into the mirror and the 86 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 5: tailors were still working on him, and they asked maybe 87 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 5: one question, and I was just like, keep going, keep going, 88 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 5: ask him some more, ask him some more. 89 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 3: And how much have you made in total? On paper? 90 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 2: Thirty two million, but like in reality we made like 91 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 2: a few hundred million. That's great, Yeah, two pennies. 92 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 3: Would you do it again? 93 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 2: I always go back to this point of like, if 94 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 2: I knew one hundred percent that I was going to 95 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 2: make thirty million dollars doing something illegal, would I do 96 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 2: it or. 97 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 3: Would I not? 98 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 5: Because they were genuinely interested in his story, and I think, 99 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 5: you know, coming from that place of curiosity, it's so 100 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 5: much more fascinating and so much you know, it's not 101 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 5: staged in the sense that even a sit down, formal 102 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 5: interview would be with a director. 103 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 3: So they crushed it and we just let him keep going. 104 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 3: We're like, yeah, this is gold, keep going, keep going. 105 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: So we hear his friend Andrew talk about this prescription 106 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: drug ring they ran, and when the cops busted them, 107 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: Ray read it out Andrew and his friends and walked 108 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: away free and clear. So my question is did Ray 109 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: get the tattoo that says loyalty before or after that. 110 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 5: I believe that was before, but I think Ray would 111 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 5: also dispute as to whether he ratted them out, so 112 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 5: he you know, there's different stories, two sides to that, 113 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 5: I think, but he definitely has had that tattoo for 114 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 5: quite some time. And I think what's interesting is there's 115 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 5: another person in the film, one of the other central founders, 116 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 5: who also has a similar loyalty tattoo. That's a little 117 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 5: bit smaller but similar one. 118 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have that great shot of him lifting weights, 119 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: and you've got a really great shot of that loyalty tattoo. 120 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: Was that on purpose? 121 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 3: Yeah? Definitely. 122 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 5: Yeah, we needed to see him with his shirt off. 123 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 5: I mean, this is you know, it's that kind of movie. 124 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,559 Speaker 1: So there is this lingering question throughout the film about 125 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: Ray's grandfather and his origin story, and it's implied that 126 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 1: he may have been connected in some way to the mob. 127 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: Maybe it's one of those things that no one seems 128 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 1: to really want to talk about, but they kind of 129 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: want you to think about, or you want us to 130 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: think about. And I'm just curious, like, was that just bluster? 131 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: Is that just like family lore? What do you think? 132 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 5: You know, I think there's some truth to it, but 133 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 5: how much I'm not sure. I mean, it's great talking 134 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 5: to his grandma Pat like she's one of my favorite 135 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 5: parts of the film, and just the way she kind 136 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 5: of dismisses it. It's like, ah, no, he wasn't in 137 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 5: the mafia. You know, he had something to do with 138 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 5: the elevator business. I mean that it just leaves so 139 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,839 Speaker 5: many questions and they definitely you know, both Ray's mom, 140 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 5: who was his grandmother's daughter. Obviously she said she saw 141 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 5: money laying around, you know, suitcases full of money. There 142 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 5: was definitely times where Ray found money, like, you know, 143 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 5: large amounts under the mattress and things, and you know, 144 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 5: it's that kind of I think, anytime you're dealing with 145 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 5: that amount of cash, that was one of the big 146 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 5: red flags. But then also just his grandfather Pop presented 147 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 5: this image that was very much of a movie. 148 00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 3: You know. 149 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 5: The stories that people tell about him make it feel 150 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 5: like he was one of those guys from Goodfellas, right. 151 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: And the fact that his wife can't actually say what 152 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: his actual job was but something to do with the 153 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: elevator business, doesn't help dispel that legend, right right, right. 154 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: There is a tension in Ray's life between wanting to 155 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: run some sort of criminal enterprise and get rich and 156 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:27,080 Speaker 1: wanting to be legitimate to make his family proud. And 157 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:30,559 Speaker 1: that's where this luxury rental car business comes into play. 158 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: Is there any chance that Ray and Sorby could have 159 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: made that work instead of pivoting to crypto Maybe if 160 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: they had just curbed their personal spending a little bit. 161 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 3: I think possibly. 162 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 5: But you've got a couple young guys in Miami with 163 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 5: a lot of money and exotic cars, and it's not 164 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 5: going to end well. I don't think for guys in 165 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 5: their twenties in that situation that too many people would 166 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 5: be able to have much longevity with that of business. 167 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: So, for reasons that we learned later on, we don't 168 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: get to hear much from Sorby himself in bitcoinn I'm curious, Brian, 169 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: what are your impressions of Sorby? 170 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, I all I know is what I've read in 171 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 5: the media and talked to, you know. I've talked to 172 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 5: his family. I've talked to people that knew him, that 173 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 5: used to date him, that are you know, coupled with 174 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 5: him now. I've talked to, you know, all sorts of 175 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 5: people that have spent a lot of time with him. 176 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 5: But one of the frustrations is I never got to 177 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 5: talk to him. And I worked for a long time, 178 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,439 Speaker 5: over a year, to try to get an interview with 179 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 5: him for the film. I've talked with his lawyers as well. 180 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 5: I made trips to Miami, and you know, just really 181 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 5: tried to get him on board, and I think because 182 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 5: he had some ongoing appeals, he wasn't able to speak. 183 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 5: So we kept We kept trying up until the end, 184 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 5: and it was always like we'd get a reply from 185 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 5: one of his lawyers saying, Okay, he's ready to talk now, 186 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 5: and then something. 187 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 3: Would go wrong and we wouldn't be able to get it. 188 00:08:57,840 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 5: And even after I turned in the film, I got 189 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 5: a mysage from you know, his brother in law basically saying, Hey, 190 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,079 Speaker 5: he's ready to talk now, he's ready to be interviewed. 191 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 5: Is it too late? I was like, yeah, it's too late. 192 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 5: Unfortunately it's too late. Yes, we're airing it in, you know, 193 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 5: in a month. I wish I could say more about 194 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 5: him and really understand him more, but not having a 195 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,439 Speaker 5: personal relationship with him or conversations with him, I don't 196 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 5: I can't really tell what, you know, what's really going 197 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 5: on inside of his head. 198 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I wish, you know, I could understand him a 199 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: little more too, because one of the things that I 200 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: couldn't work out is why Ray you know, wanted to 201 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: continue to work with him. I mean the business breakup 202 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: after that, the car business breakup wasn't necessarily a great breakup, right, 203 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: Like he accused Sorby of embezzling money from that business, 204 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: and I couldn't quite wrap my head around why he'd 205 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: want to work with Sorbi again. So Sorbie must have 206 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 1: something like to him that's as an appeal, right. 207 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess so. 208 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 5: I mean they definitely saw the dollar signs and they 209 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,439 Speaker 5: created something that was unique at time. 210 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 3: Well maybe unique is the wrong word. 211 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 5: There were other, you know, things like this out there 212 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 5: at the time, but they somehow were able to get 213 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 5: theirs off the ground. 214 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 3: And I think. 215 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,439 Speaker 5: Ray saw that idea and saw the dollar signs and 216 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 5: just you know, went with it. In spite of, you 217 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 5: know what complications he may already have had with that 218 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 5: relationship with Sorby. They continued in this business. 219 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: So they did identify a legitimate pain point in the 220 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: crypto market, which was with that crypto at that point, 221 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: you could be rich on paper, but it was hard 222 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: to access your actual money. So explain some more what 223 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: the product they were selling actually was. Were they creating 224 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: a cryptocurrency or just creating this way to access your cryptocurrency. 225 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, they had their own coins, so they did an 226 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 5: ico and they raised funds through that. They had CenTra 227 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 5: tokens that they were selling, and then they also had 228 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 5: the debit card, which was a way to spend your crypto, 229 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 5: and you could spend not only centric coins, but you 230 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 5: could spend all different versions of cryptocurrency on your card 231 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 5: in real time, and you would worked kind of like 232 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 5: a debit card where it would come out of an 233 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 5: account and transfer it would convert from whatever cryptocurrency to 234 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 5: US dollar and spend right at the grocery store. There 235 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 5: were several companies doing it at the time, and they 236 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 5: were in the process of making this card, making it 237 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 5: or faking it or whatever you want to say. Like 238 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 5: there's the question of whether it's fake or not as 239 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 5: tricky because some versions of a prototype of this card 240 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 5: were working. Were there lies and fraud along the way, Yes, 241 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 5: but I do believe that they were actively working towards 242 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 5: some sort of fully functioning card and company, even though 243 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 5: there was fraud and lies along the way. 244 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: Not just fraud and lies. Right, actually confessed a crime 245 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: to you on camera that when he had access to 246 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: somebody's wallet, he just stole the money out of that guy. 247 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: It's wait, that was shocking to me that, like he's 248 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: just willing to just tell you on camera. Hey, yeah, 249 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: this guy accidentally gave me his pass code, so I 250 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: just you know, I saw the money there, and I 251 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: just took it. 252 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 5: This is what I found fascinating about Ray is that 253 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 5: he was so honest, even about the most horrible things. 254 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 5: Most people you work with, criminals and such, are dodging 255 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 5: around the truth and trying to, you know, backpedaling over 256 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 5: their words and trying to, you know, not tell you everything. 257 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 5: But Ray, I really believe he was, you know, let's say, 258 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 5: ninety five percent honest with me. Like he he told 259 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 5: me stuff that I would look at him and look 260 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 5: at the camera guy next to me and say, like, 261 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 5: does he know this camera's rolling like we're he knows 262 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 5: he's saying this on record, right, because the things he 263 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 5: would say would be so ridiculous, And I mean, I 264 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 5: think part of that is his personality. I think another 265 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 5: part of it is that when he cooperated with the 266 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 5: with the government, he had to tell them everything he 267 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 5: did wrong. And once he told them those things, they 268 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 5: couldn't prosecute him form in the future. So I think 269 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 5: things like that he probably told to them. If he didn't, 270 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 5: he could potentially be prosecuted for it. But the way 271 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 5: it was explained to me was that after he had 272 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 5: shared all of those things, he could not be charged 273 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 5: with them anymore, which made him able to be a 274 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 5: bit more honest with us with everything. 275 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was pretty incredible. Can you remind me how 276 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: Center convinced the world about the members of its c suite, 277 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: like the veracity of their credentials and you know existence. 278 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean there was a lot of ways, but 279 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 5: their fake staff was one of them, you know, that 280 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 5: was their CEO. 281 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 3: Was incredible. 282 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,079 Speaker 5: When we started working on this film and I heard 283 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,079 Speaker 5: about Michael Edwards, the fake CEO, that has to be 284 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 5: a major plot point and I really want audiences to 285 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 5: believe that Michael Edwards is real and then at some 286 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 5: time flip it on them and realize that he's not. 287 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 5: But the fact that they had you know staff there 288 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 5: weren't even real people that supposedly worked at you know, 289 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 5: Wells Fargo and like Bank of America and things and 290 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 5: had this huge resume was incredible. And that led people, 291 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 5: I think to know how much did they trust in 292 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 5: them more because they had this fake CEO. I'm not sure, 293 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 5: but it was a factor. When people were going to 294 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 5: invest in a company and they see this guy, it 295 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 5: leads them to believe that there's someone they can trust there. 296 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 5: So we went after. You know, we knew we had 297 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 5: to find the real Michael Edwards, and so that was 298 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 5: like a big part of Upfront. I said, if I 299 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 5: could land him an interview with him, that would be 300 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 5: such a fun twist in the film. 301 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 4: I'm Michael Edwards, founder and CEO of Center Tech. 302 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 3: Is that who you really are? No, that's not who 303 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 3: I really am. I'm doctor Andrew Hoileko. I'm a professor 304 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 3: at the University of Manitoba. 305 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 5: I was stoked when he agreed to do it. 306 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: Were you surprised by how junior Varsity some of this 307 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: scam actually was? Like, you know, I don't know how 308 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: blockchain works, but I know how Google reverse image works. 309 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: I know that. You know, just saying you went to 310 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: Harvard on your LinkedIn does not erase your Instagram history 311 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: that shows you having owned a car dealership and notw 312 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: having gone to Harvard. I mean, it's jv right. 313 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 3: It is. 314 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 5: But what's even more fascinating is that people bought into it. 315 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 5: So to me, the fact that they were getting away 316 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 5: with these things that seemed so amateur was incredible to me. 317 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 5: I think the you know, if they were just doing 318 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 5: them and people weren't buying into them, that's one thing, 319 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 5: but the fact that they kept kind of failing upwards, 320 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 5: they would do something stupid and then raise more money. 321 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 5: I mean, you get to the point in the film 322 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 5: where you're like, certainly they're going down, and then that 323 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 5: Korean company reaches out with more money, and I think 324 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 5: that is what's incredible and also is kind of a 325 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 5: sign of what was happening at the time with these 326 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 5: types of things. In twenty seventeen, it was just the 327 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 5: wild West of cryptocurrencies, and you had all sorts of 328 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 5: people starting scammy companies and you know, milking people out 329 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 5: of their money, and people weren't asking questions. They were 330 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 5: just they could do no wrong, and they just assumed 331 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:57,440 Speaker 5: that their money. 332 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 3: Would just go up, go up, go up. 333 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 5: You know, there was not there was no one keeping 334 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 5: anyone in check. And I think there was probably a 335 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 5: lot worse scams that were going on at the time 336 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 5: that people didn't get in trouble for. 337 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it is worth noting that this was 338 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: before these really high profile cases like one coin and 339 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: Quadrigae SX or FTX, and few people knew a lot 340 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: about crypto let alone that most of these outfits were scammy, right, 341 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: Like consumers just were not aware of that at that time. 342 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 5: Absolutely, I mean they you know, some people had made 343 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 5: some money in ethereum and a lot of people were 344 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 5: putting that into other coins. But yeah, there wasn't general 345 00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 5: knowledge of what types of people were in this industry 346 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 5: and how scammy they were. I think Nathaniel Popper, who 347 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 5: wrote a great article for The New York Times about 348 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 5: Center Tech, he was looking at the time. He had 349 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 5: kind of become the de facto reporter at the Times 350 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 5: for anything crypto, and he knew there was all sorts 351 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 5: of scams going on and was trying to find something 352 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 5: to write about. But there was too many stories. It's like, 353 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,880 Speaker 5: where do you even start. These things are everywhere, And 354 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 5: somehow he stumbled across CenTra. 355 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 3: He looked at them and said, they have a little 356 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 3: bit of everything. 357 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 5: They've got the celebrities, they've got the fake you know, CEOs, 358 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 5: they've got all sorts of things. They raised a good 359 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 5: amount of money, and they kind of summed up everything 360 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 5: that was wrong in the crypto world at that time. 361 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 4: In a sense, CenTra was the story of crypto itself, 362 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 4: which is an endeavor that has something real underneath it, 363 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 4: but keeps failing and keeps running into problems, and yet 364 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 4: people keep coming back to it. There's something so alluring there. 365 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. 366 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 5: I think the SEC went on to prosecute This did 367 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 5: become the first case that the SEC prosecuted in the 368 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 5: cryptocurrency space, and I think that was also because of 369 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 5: this New York Times article and because they had been 370 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 5: given some light there. 371 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: What I thought was interesting about Nathaniel Popper was he 372 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: was talking about how you know, belittled his beat was 373 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: at the New York Times at the time. Can you 374 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: talk about how important he was to your film, like 375 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 1: having him in your film. 376 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, he's incredible because I think you want somebody that's 377 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 5: gonna kind of help take down the bad guy, if 378 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 5: you will. I don't like to say that there's good 379 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 5: or bad guys in films, but that would be his 380 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 5: role here, the good guy investigating and trying to solve 381 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 5: the crime. He had done an incredible amount of research. 382 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 5: We reached out to him fairly early on, and we 383 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 5: were able to do an interview with him and get 384 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 5: a lot of information from him that was helpful in 385 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 5: all of other interviews after that and the crafting the 386 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 5: film and yeah, he was a huge help. 387 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,479 Speaker 1: So it seems like no one was more surprised than 388 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: Nathaniel that Sorby continued to talk to him when it 389 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 1: was clear this whole thing was a house of cards, right. 390 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I think he says that in the film, 391 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 5: like he very much thought at some point they would 392 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 5: shut up, but they just kept answering his calls. 393 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 4: The first thing is Visa has said nobody has applied 394 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 4: to issue a central card. 395 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 3: I mean, I know, I know detailed about that. 396 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I mean, but I mean, I 397 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 2: can't give you direct. 398 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 3: Bank on that. 399 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 5: We have calls with Ray in the film. He talked 400 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 5: with Ray, you know, a decent amount, but he talked 401 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:21,199 Speaker 5: with with Sorby much more. And those conversations, you know, 402 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 5: aren't in the film, but they're even more fascinating. And 403 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 5: just the you know, just the cover ups. As they 404 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 5: start getting down the road and he's asking him more 405 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 5: and more questions, he kind of just catches them over 406 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 5: and over again. And much like the interview they did 407 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 5: with Cliff High, which in the film seems to go 408 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 5: incredibly wrong. After that interview with Cliff High, they raised 409 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 5: even more money, Like things kept going even better because 410 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 5: of that attention. It's funny to see that, even with 411 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 5: the warning signs, that people were still buying into these things. 412 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: It's interesting because agreeing to do a profile with the 413 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: New York Times seems like a terrible idea if you're 414 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 1: knowingly running a scam, right, So my question is, did 415 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,239 Speaker 1: they sort of think they were doing something legit at 416 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 1: that point or did they just not understand like what 417 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 1: journalism is and they thought they were just going to 418 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: be able to fleece this New York Times reporter. That 419 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:18,479 Speaker 1: was the big question I had about it. 420 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. 421 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 5: I think if you ask Ray he would say, no, 422 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 5: we knew it was a scam the whole time. If 423 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 5: you ask Robert Farkas, who is one of the three 424 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 5: co founders, he would say, yes, we were legitimate. I 425 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 5: believe it, and I still believe in it today. It 426 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 5: might be mixed, but either way, they all thought, for 427 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 5: whatever reason, that this was a great idea to do 428 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 5: a profile in the New York Times, and they were 429 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 5: excited about it. I mean, you see the pictures. They 430 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,639 Speaker 5: did a huge photo shoot in these in these suits. 431 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 5: The New York Times photographer and they, you know, were 432 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 5: all thrilled that they were going to get this press 433 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 5: because it meant good things for their you know, for 434 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 5: their company, and in some cases it might have been 435 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 5: I mean, most of the you know, attention they were getting, 436 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 5: even when it was negative, was again turning around into 437 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 5: something where they raised more money. So there's a chance 438 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 5: that you know, this New York Times thing, even if 439 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 5: it was negative, could have been good for them if 440 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 5: the SEC hadn't read that article and came after them. 441 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, Unfortunately, people at the SEC do tend to read 442 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: The New York Times. Yes, it was interesting to me, 443 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 1: you know, Nathaniel decided to send the photographer there quickly 444 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 1: before they figure me out that I'm a real journalist, 445 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: which apparently they weren't going to do anyway. But there 446 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: were actual employees there, and I found myself wondering, did 447 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: they really hire employees who went to the office thinking 448 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: that this was a legit, non scammy company, Like did 449 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: they have infrastructure employees like payroll people. 450 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure that yeah. 451 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 5: Yeah. My guess is that most of the people there, 452 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 5: you know, assumed they were working for a legitimate company 453 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 5: and it was a normal job. 454 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 3: Yeah. 455 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 5: I don't think there were too many people there that 456 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 5: went to work thinking or were scamming people. 457 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: Right, So you mentioned cliff High a minute ago. It 458 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: seems like CenTra made a lot of money also thanks 459 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 1: to a typo that cliff I made. Yeah, can you 460 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,439 Speaker 1: just remind us who Cliffy is and what was that 461 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: mistake that he made in his blog. 462 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:16,360 Speaker 5: He's a crypto guru blogger and he found this this company, 463 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 5: you know, using these web bots, as we call him. 464 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,679 Speaker 5: He found a company called CenTra, and it was the 465 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 5: wrong center. It was some sort of bank that he 466 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 5: had that he had thought that this bank was partnering 467 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 5: in a crypto venture and that was something he was 468 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 5: thrilled about, and he wrote along report about and turns 469 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 5: out his web bot had. 470 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 3: Discovered the wrong CenTra. 471 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 5: So he quickly retracted that, but it was kind of 472 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 5: too late because that was the you know, that was 473 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 5: the start of them raising thirty five million dollars was 474 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 5: because of this mistake and because of his endorsement, because 475 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 5: he was that powerful in that in that world. 476 00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: It also seems like maybe they didn't do a great 477 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: name search when they named their scamming company. It's like 478 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: some brand confusion. 479 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 5: That would be a good scam would to be to 480 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 5: get your company to sound like anything you can and 481 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 5: copy the logos. 482 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: So well, or copy a whole website and then just 483 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 1: find in the place right exactly. So Cliff tries to 484 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: atone by exposing CenTra for the benefit of the crypto community, 485 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,360 Speaker 1: and Sorby decides to do an interview with Cliff. 486 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,199 Speaker 2: The first thing Sorby says in that cause we are 487 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 2: one not a scam. Starting off by saying this is 488 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 2: not a skim is the most bizarre thing in the world. 489 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 2: No one ever says that unless it's actually a scam. 490 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 3: No, that's that's fine, that's mine. But your statement, your 491 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 3: statements don't mean anything. You stating you're not a scam 492 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 3: in no way proves you're not a scam. 493 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 1: He doesn't do himself any favors in that interview, right. 494 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 5: No, No, it does not go well. It's painful to watch, 495 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 5: especially in its entirety. It's a very painful interview. 496 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: So the heat's rising now and Ray and Sorby and 497 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: Robert hire a lawyer to deal with the legal threat. 498 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:08,920 Speaker 1: So talk about this guy who is Eric Pope. 499 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 6: Oh. 500 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 5: Eric Pope is an incredible lawyer based out of New York, 501 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 5: huge resume, He's got a great website. Eric Pope is 502 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,240 Speaker 5: one of my favorite things about this because they really 503 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 5: really believed that Eric Pope was helping them and that 504 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 5: he was a very skilled and credentialed lawyer. And they 505 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 5: sent all of their stuff to Eric Pope. When they 506 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 5: got in trouble with the sec they sent it to him. 507 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 5: When they had other questions, they went to him. He 508 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 5: helped them with all of their paperwork, and they did 509 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 5: not find out until much later that he was a 510 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 5: college kid pretending to be a lawyer. 511 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 2: It was like this young kid, fucking maniac, and my 512 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 2: partner thought it was a legit lawyer the whole time 513 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 2: he was talking to him, and he basically like scammed 514 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 2: a company that was already scamming us, which was. 515 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, crazy. He did get busted for that. 516 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 5: I think he only made I don't have it in 517 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 5: front of you, somewhere around forty thousand dollars being a 518 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 5: fake lawyer for three years. And he also had a partner, 519 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 5: so it wasn't it wasn't incredibly lucrative for him, but 520 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 5: because of CenTra and I think the attention it got. 521 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 5: I did hear that the CenTra executives cooperated with the 522 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 5: government to help put Eric Pope away. 523 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: Right, because they all have loyalty tattoos. 524 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 3: Right, Yes, exactly, exactly. 525 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 5: But it's one of my favorite parts, especially when he's 526 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 5: talking to the suit guys and they're so shocked to 527 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,360 Speaker 5: you know, basically like they got scammed by the scammer 528 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:36,959 Speaker 5: got scammed by another scam. 529 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 3: It's incredible. It's karma. 530 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: Well that's the thing. Is it karma or are they 531 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,439 Speaker 1: somehow And this is what I found myself wondering, are 532 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: they somehow more susceptible to somebody like Eric Pope because 533 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: this is how they operate. It's almost like they are 534 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 1: scam blind. That's that's why I found myself wondering. 535 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 5: Maybe, I mean, they got tricked by their own scam. 536 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 5: I mean, especially the website. Just believing something off a 537 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 5: web site is pretty funny. I mean, I just I 538 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 5: find it really entertaining. And I think that he the 539 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 5: fact that this kid, you know, fooled them. I don't know, 540 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 5: I don't know if it's karma or what, but I 541 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 5: just it's a big laugh for me. I love it, 542 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 5: like it's so great. 543 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the key to being a fake lawyer 544 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: is to go into a field of fake law where 545 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: other people don't know anything about what it is you're doing. 546 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,159 Speaker 1: So the fact that they didn't know what they were 547 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: actually doing probably really helped this kid out a lot. 548 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 3: Exactly. 549 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 5: You just got to be confident and you know, and 550 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 5: that's it, that's all. It takes big words and confidence. 551 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,479 Speaker 1: Eventually they do need real lawyers though, because the FBI 552 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: finally does you know, go into CenTra. When you begin 553 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: interviewing Ray, he hadn't yet been sentenced. The guy with 554 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,919 Speaker 1: a loyalty tattoo again cooperates with authorities to convict his 555 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: co defendants, and instead of getting decades in prison, he 556 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: was sentenced to time served and released no time. Bitch, 557 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: Oh she loved you. 558 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 3: Comparing it to Sorbies was like night and day. 559 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 2: Facing one hundred and seventy five years. 560 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: Did you think that was what was going to happen? 561 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 3: Honestly? Like, no, not. At first. 562 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 5: When we started this, his sentencing was probably a few 563 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 5: weeks or a month in advance, and we were rushing 564 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 5: to go film with Ray before. 565 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:22,159 Speaker 3: He got locked up. 566 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 5: We were worried that if he went to prison, then 567 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 5: there's you know, we're trying to make this movie that's 568 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 5: going to be a little difficult, So the sentencing kept 569 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 5: getting pushed over a year I think. I mean, we 570 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 5: waited for quite a while for the sentencing, and as 571 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,600 Speaker 5: we got farther down the road and talked to more 572 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 5: lawyers and people involved in the in the story, I 573 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 5: think I started to think that he probably would would 574 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 5: get off. But there was still a question even on 575 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 5: that day of whether, you know, how strict the penalty 576 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 5: would be. I mean, there was definitely on paper a 577 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 5: chance that he could get one hundred years or something. 578 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 5: But I think just knowing, you know, talking to the 579 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 5: other lawyers in the case, it seemed like he was 580 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,919 Speaker 5: probably gonna get off with very little time, maybe a 581 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 5: year at the most, and then ultimately, as you see 582 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 5: in the film, he gets no time. 583 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 4: M m. 584 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,879 Speaker 1: The true measure of whether or not that was a 585 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,640 Speaker 1: fair outcome perhaps came from investor Jacob Brunsel. How did 586 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: it feel to be the one to deliver the news 587 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: to Jacob that Ray got time served for stealing his money? 588 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 5: Yeah, I uh, I mean felt kind of bad because 589 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 5: obviously Jacob would like to see him spend some time 590 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 5: in prison. 591 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 3: That upsets me. That upsets me kind of well, I'm 592 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 3: gonna got him. 593 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 6: Oh oh man, do you think he's really changed? 594 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 3: I hope so, but that doesn't absolve him from what 595 00:28:58,960 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 3: he's done in this past. 596 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 5: It was also a good moment that he could capture 597 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 5: on camera, so I'm glad he hadn't heard that news 598 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 5: anywhere else yet. But yeah, it is shocking at the surface. 599 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 5: I think Paul Percucci, who is Robert Farcas's lawyer, talks 600 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,479 Speaker 5: about it and talked about it more than is in 601 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 5: the film. But that's just the way the government works 602 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 5: in New York is if you cooperate, you get no time. Personally, 603 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 5: I think there should be some middle ground. I mean, 604 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:31,479 Speaker 5: give some sort of benefit for cooperating, but don't let 605 00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 5: them get off completely either. Yeah, but it seems like 606 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 5: it's all or nothing. According to him. 607 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: Robert Farcas's attorney might be biased, but he said of 608 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: the three principal players, that Ray was the most likely 609 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: to reoffend, and he said it in a pretty colorful way. 610 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 3: Good shocking to me. 611 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 6: With his record and as much of a scumback as 612 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 6: he admits he is, that he winds up with literally 613 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 6: the lowest sentence in this case. 614 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 1: Do you agree this might be the case. 615 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 5: I don't have a comment on that. I would say, 616 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 5: he says that. I'd say, Samson ends are the you know, 617 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 5: the prosecutor. He says, sam is you know, the one 618 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 5: that would be most likely to reoffend and sees that 619 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 5: because of his criminal habits. Basically is what he would say, 620 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 5: is that over the over the years, if you look 621 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 5: at these things, I think they both agree that Robert 622 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 5: Farcas would be the least likely to reoffend and kind 623 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 5: of was just caught up in all this you know, 624 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 5: wrong place, wrong time, and. 625 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 3: Bought into it because I think he believed in the company. 626 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: He took a job, right, He just took a job. 627 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 5: He was exactly exactly and I don't know how much 628 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 5: he knew of things that were illegal that were going 629 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 5: on or not, but he he did believe in it. 630 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 5: And I think probably I feel the most sorry for 631 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 5: him because he wasn't the one leading the charge but 632 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 5: still got roped into all of this. 633 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, although he never asked the question why am I 634 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 1: being made CFO of a company? 635 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 3: When I true? 636 00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 5: I mean that's exciting though, Yeah, you get you get that. 637 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 5: I mean, I'm down, what's that? What's the salary? 638 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 3: Let's go. 639 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: You make the choice to include this several times that 640 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: you asked Ray and his family about his current finances, 641 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: including buying a house in particular, and whether he still 642 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 1: maybe has any of this stolen money, and you included 643 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: there somewhat evasive and somewhat differing answers. Can you talk 644 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: about your decision to include these conversations in the film. 645 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 5: Yes, I think as a filmmaker, I want to know 646 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 5: what the viewer is asking, and I think everybody's going 647 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 5: to be asking where's the money? 648 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 3: Like does he still have money? 649 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 5: And I asked him multiple times throughout this production, and 650 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 5: there always was a bit of a playfulness or denial. 651 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 5: It wasn't the same honesty that I had in other 652 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 5: conversations with him. 653 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 3: You're buying a house, yeah, How you mine a house? 654 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:51,640 Speaker 3: Money answers? 655 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 2: How it goes? 656 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 4: Yeah? 657 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 3: How you have money to take for the house. How's 658 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 3: he buying a house? 659 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 2: Ray? 660 00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,479 Speaker 3: As Kim, I don't know. 661 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 5: So those moments at the end of the film are 662 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 5: a little more raw than other moments, and I think 663 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 5: feel a little bit more real. 664 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 3: But they were important for me. 665 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 5: To include, because I'd been asking that question the whole 666 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 5: time and I don't have an answer. But I think 667 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 5: that there's something there, Like whether he has two hundred 668 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 5: dollars or two million dollars, there's potential that there's some 669 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 5: additional money, is my guess. 670 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, you producer directed some great documentaries like The 671 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,239 Speaker 1: Legend of Cocaine Island and The Pez Outlaw, and what 672 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: those have in common are quirky people who get into 673 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: trouble because they dream really big and maybe a little 674 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: naive of the law. But Ray says from the beginning 675 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: that he always wanted to be a criminal. He knew 676 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 1: the system and that he was hurting people, and now 677 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: he is buying houses and making loans to financially disadvantaged 678 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,479 Speaker 1: people at fifty percent interest. He says this is going 679 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: to be his new business venture. They say, when people 680 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 1: show you who they are, believe them. So what am 681 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: I supposed to believe about who Ray Trapani is. 682 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 3: I think you can believe what he tells you. 683 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 5: I think I think you shouldn't trust him as far 684 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 5: as I would never give him money or enter a 685 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 5: business venture with him. I think Ray's probably loyal to 686 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 5: the closest people around him, but then he has other 687 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 5: priorities when it comes to everything else, mainly money. I 688 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 5: think what you believe about Ray Ray is complicated. Like 689 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 5: he's he's fascinating, he's so I've never met someone who 690 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 5: was so willing to talk about their dark side in 691 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 5: such an open way. There's so much stuff that didn't 692 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 5: make it in the film. There's so many adventures and 693 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 5: things that you know, I would never want my kids 694 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 5: to hear. 695 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: But is there anything you can tell us about that 696 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 1: while we're talking? 697 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 5: I mean, Ray, what can I tell you about? What 698 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 5: can I tell you about? He had so many stories though, 699 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 5: and it just it just I mean one of the 700 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 5: first things Ray told me was his favorite movie is 701 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 5: Wolf of Wall Street. And he really looks up to 702 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 5: and respects Jordan Belfort. He said when he went into CenTra, 703 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 5: he looked at Jordan Belford and said, I want to 704 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 5: model my company after him. Like, I think that says 705 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 5: a lot about someone. I don't know. There's probably a 706 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 5: deeper dive that a therapist could do, but that, to 707 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:32,280 Speaker 5: me says everything. 708 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, we see that he's fallen in love, gotten married, 709 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: now has a baby. Is he an open book with 710 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,960 Speaker 1: his wife is now wife too, and does it seem 711 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 1: like he's an open book with her and in those 712 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: close relationships, I. 713 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 5: Mean he's he's an open book with his wife. After 714 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 5: she sees this movie, I guess I think, you know, 715 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 5: I think she's aware of all of this. I mean, 716 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 5: she knew when she started dating him, she knew the 717 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 5: basic details. He was wearing a braslet when she met him, 718 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 5: and had a curfew so they would have to rush 719 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 5: home in time back to his grandmother's house every night 720 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 5: by twelve or something, and like barely make curfew. But 721 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 5: I think he's open with them. I mean, how much 722 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 5: will he tell his kids they're young. I'm I'm not sure, 723 00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 5: but it's something that I don't feel like anyone around 724 00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 5: him hasn't heard these stories. His best friend, Johnny, who's 725 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 5: in the movie, is like probably you know, loves him 726 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 5: and hates him, like he knows how messed up he 727 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 5: is in so many ways, and somehow they're still best friends. 728 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:35,439 Speaker 3: That says a lot. 729 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 5: And I find ready to be frustratingly likable because you 730 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 5: don't want to like him. And I think you get 731 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 5: to the end of the film too, and that is 732 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 5: what's interesting is he's complicated in that way, like you're saying, 733 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 5: this guy is horrible. He's doing horrible things, but I 734 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 5: kind of like him, like why, And I think that 735 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 5: hopefully points the fingerback at the audience and makes them 736 00:35:58,719 --> 00:35:59,879 Speaker 5: ask a few questions too. 737 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: Well along those lines, Ray's mom did say that if 738 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 1: you make Ray look like a scumbag, You're going to 739 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: be in big trouble. 740 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 3: I said it from the very beginning. 741 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 2: I mean, if you make them look like a scumbag, 742 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 2: I'm really going to be pissed, because I swear to God, 743 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 2: you'll be in big trouble. 744 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 3: I'm not kidding. 745 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 1: So I have to ask are you looking over your 746 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 1: shoulder a little bit? For Ray's mom right now? 747 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 5: Well, the big question is does Ray look like a scumbig? 748 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 5: Do you think Ray looks like a scumbag? 749 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 3: I don't know. 750 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: I kind of feel like you do. 751 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,840 Speaker 5: I mean, does Ray think Ray looks like a scumbig? 752 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:32,919 Speaker 5: That'll be the question too. He hasn't seen the movie yet, 753 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,279 Speaker 5: so by the time this comes out, he will, But 754 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 5: I'm guessing that Ray's gonna like it, and that hopefully 755 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,400 Speaker 5: he can calm his mom down a little and that 756 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 5: I won't have to look over my shoulder. 757 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 3: I like his mom. 758 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 5: I think I've had meals with her, I've hung out 759 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 5: with her. 760 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 3: Like she's lovely. 761 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,839 Speaker 5: It's tough if your son is a convicted felon and 762 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 5: it has controversy in his life. Of course you want 763 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 5: to stick up for your kid, like, but you also 764 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 5: know just it's like his best friend that like, yeah, 765 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 5: you love him and you hate him, like it's a 766 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 5: mixed bag. 767 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 1: Well, Brian Storkle, the film is bitcom It's super interesting 768 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: and honestly a whole lot of fun to watch. Thank 769 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: you so much for coming on you can't make this 770 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: up to talk to me about it? 771 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 3: Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. 772 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,319 Speaker 1: That's it for this week's episode. Thanks so much again 773 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: to Brian Storkel. For more of my takes, check out 774 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: my other podcast, Crime Writers. On Each week, on that show, 775 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 1: we break down the latest and true crime documentaries, TV podcasts, 776 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: and pop culture. If you like you can't make this up, 777 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: please rate, interview this show, and share it with your friends. 778 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 1: You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever 779 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: you're listening right now, and make sure to follow the 780 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 1: show to stay tuned for all new episodes. Our music 781 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: is by Kelly mac at Netflix Music Lab. You can't 782 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: make this up as a production of Netflix. I'm Rebecca Lavoy. 783 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:49,280 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening. 784 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 6: Toot