WEBVTT - A Low-Turnout Election is Solvable (Even During COVID-19) 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:25.716 Pushkin. Welcome to Solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. Think now about 0:00:25.716 --> 0:00:30.716 the scenes from the Michigan State House militia members carrying 0:00:31.076 --> 0:00:34.596 AR fifteens. It's the most shocking thing you can imagine. 0:00:35.156 --> 0:00:38.116 It's shocking, and we're going to have a risk of 0:00:38.156 --> 0:00:41.156 seeing too much of that kind of thing. The states 0:00:41.196 --> 0:00:45.516 are extremely high for this year's election. Experts had anticipated 0:00:45.516 --> 0:00:49.516 the largest turnout in a century. States were registering voters 0:00:49.516 --> 0:00:54.836 and preparing their precincts, and then COVID nineteen hit. Priorities 0:00:54.836 --> 0:00:57.756 suddenly shifted. You know, you don't want a governor being 0:00:57.796 --> 0:01:00.476 able to say, oh, I'm going to postpone an election. 0:01:00.556 --> 0:01:03.596 I mean, we've had elections in this country under all 0:01:03.716 --> 0:01:07.396 kinds of dire circumstances, wars and in fact pandemics in 0:01:07.436 --> 0:01:10.716 the past. But having the paper ballot, having that backup 0:01:10.756 --> 0:01:13.036 so that you can do an audit, so that you 0:01:13.076 --> 0:01:15.436 can see if there was fraud, so that you can 0:01:15.476 --> 0:01:17.876 do a recount, that turns out to be the best 0:01:17.876 --> 0:01:20.756 system of all. Is there an argument other than the 0:01:20.876 --> 0:01:25.956 purely partisan one that more voting may advantage one party 0:01:26.076 --> 0:01:29.196 versus the other, You're more likely to be struck by 0:01:29.316 --> 0:01:33.836 lightning than commit in person voter impersonation in the United States. 0:01:34.956 --> 0:01:38.556 But there are other real hurdles to this year's election. 0:01:39.316 --> 0:01:43.316 With millions of Americans vulnerable to a deadly pandemic, social 0:01:43.396 --> 0:01:46.236 distancing measure is now a familiar part of life, and 0:01:46.356 --> 0:01:49.876 the country facing what is perhaps the largest economic crisis 0:01:49.876 --> 0:01:53.956 in its history, the challenge of securing a safe election 0:01:54.276 --> 0:01:58.316 with high rates of participation is huge. We can have 0:01:58.356 --> 0:02:03.596 an election that is participatory with robust turnout in twenty twenty. 0:02:03.676 --> 0:02:08.956 This is a solvable problem. Michael Waldman is the author 0:02:08.956 --> 0:02:11.556 of the book The Fight to Vote. He's the president 0:02:11.596 --> 0:02:14.556 of the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU. It's a 0:02:14.636 --> 0:02:18.916 nonpartisan law and policy institute that focuses on improving systems 0:02:18.916 --> 0:02:22.556 of democracy. Waldman is an expert in the practicalities of 0:02:22.596 --> 0:02:27.236 the democratic process. He's identified some straightforward solutions to this 0:02:27.316 --> 0:02:32.516 year's election challenges. My solvable is having an election that 0:02:32.636 --> 0:02:36.516 is safe and secure and fully participatory in the middle 0:02:36.556 --> 0:02:40.276 of the coronavirus pandemic and Mike, we can't really predict 0:02:40.676 --> 0:02:43.156 what it's going to be like in November. What are 0:02:43.156 --> 0:02:45.796 the main things we as a country and as states 0:02:45.876 --> 0:02:48.556 need to do. Well, You're right that we don't know 0:02:48.676 --> 0:02:51.996 what it's going to be like in November. The bottom 0:02:52.036 --> 0:02:56.076 line is we need to upgrade how we run elections 0:02:56.076 --> 0:02:59.636 in the United States for twenty twenty, so that people 0:03:00.276 --> 0:03:03.316 have the option of voting by mail, so that there 0:03:03.356 --> 0:03:07.756 are safe in person options and ample early voting, so 0:03:07.796 --> 0:03:10.796 that people can register to vote safely, and so that 0:03:10.876 --> 0:03:14.716 we count the ballots in a careful way. Recognizing that 0:03:14.796 --> 0:03:19.116 everything's changed, vote by mail seems like a pretty simple 0:03:19.316 --> 0:03:22.916 and obvious solution. I mean, I understand their legal obstacles 0:03:22.916 --> 0:03:26.276 in some states and their funding obstacles, but in your 0:03:26.316 --> 0:03:31.476 ideal world, wouldn't we just send a prepaid ballot to 0:03:31.516 --> 0:03:35.316 everybody who's registered and encourage them to vote that way. Well, 0:03:35.356 --> 0:03:38.996 a lot of states already run their elections by vote 0:03:39.036 --> 0:03:44.156 by mail, Western states, especially like California and Oregon and 0:03:44.276 --> 0:03:48.716 Washington and Colorado and Utah. That's pretty much how people 0:03:48.796 --> 0:03:53.236 vote right now. It will be impossible to imagine the 0:03:53.316 --> 0:03:58.356 whole country moving to vote by mail in November. What 0:03:58.396 --> 0:04:01.356 we can do in the meantime is make it so 0:04:01.476 --> 0:04:06.356 that people are notified of their opportunity to get a ballot, 0:04:06.716 --> 0:04:09.076 and that they don't need an excuse, they don't need 0:04:09.156 --> 0:04:12.396 the doctor's note, and we have every reason to think 0:04:12.436 --> 0:04:15.676 that most people right now will want to vote that way. Yeah. 0:04:15.716 --> 0:04:18.236 I mean, you wrote a whole book about the history 0:04:18.276 --> 0:04:22.116 of voting in the expansion of voting rights in this country. 0:04:22.316 --> 0:04:25.636 The thing I don't understand about it older people who 0:04:25.676 --> 0:04:28.556 tend to be more conservative, tend to vote with the Republicans, 0:04:28.996 --> 0:04:32.596 are the most in need of remote voting options and 0:04:32.676 --> 0:04:35.796 the most in jeopardy from having to go out to 0:04:35.916 --> 0:04:38.276 vote in person. Yet it seems to be conservatives who 0:04:38.276 --> 0:04:40.596 are fighting the vote by mail things. So can you 0:04:40.596 --> 0:04:43.156 explain that to me? Well, you know, there's lots of 0:04:43.196 --> 0:04:46.716 things when it comes to voting that are controversial where 0:04:46.716 --> 0:04:49.596 there have been partisan fights. If you think about something 0:04:49.636 --> 0:04:52.716 like the debate over what kind of voter ID makes sense, 0:04:53.036 --> 0:04:57.716 that's pretty intense and has been in a kind of Democrat, 0:04:57.796 --> 0:05:01.276 Republican left right way. Vote by mail has not been 0:05:01.316 --> 0:05:05.236 one of the controversial things. The further away you get 0:05:05.276 --> 0:05:09.756 from the Fox News set or I guess the White 0:05:09.796 --> 0:05:13.596 House podium, the less partisan this is. Trump first said 0:05:14.196 --> 0:05:17.756 out loud what you're really not supposed to say, which 0:05:17.796 --> 0:05:19.796 is oh, we'll get levels of voting that are so 0:05:19.876 --> 0:05:24.556 high that we'll never win. And then after a few 0:05:24.636 --> 0:05:27.116 days he realized he'd gone off script, and what he 0:05:27.116 --> 0:05:30.116 said is, oh, I'm very worried about the specter of 0:05:30.716 --> 0:05:33.476 voter fraud. But he really made clear the goal was 0:05:33.516 --> 0:05:36.396 to restrict the electorate, but started drama. But that's my question. 0:05:36.516 --> 0:05:39.556 Is it possible that he's wrong? That is, in general terms, 0:05:39.636 --> 0:05:43.916 more people voting might advantage Democrats, but in specific terms, 0:05:44.156 --> 0:05:47.196 a lot of the things Democrats are advocating right now 0:05:47.596 --> 0:05:52.036 might just advantage Republicans. More political scientists say that it 0:05:52.116 --> 0:05:56.036 hasn't affected one party or another, that vote by mail 0:05:56.156 --> 0:06:01.876 hasn't benefited one party or another. Republican campaigns and Democratic 0:06:01.876 --> 0:06:06.636 campaigns are organizing voters to vote by mail. It hasn't 0:06:06.676 --> 0:06:09.356 stopped the Republican Party of Florida from pouring a lot 0:06:09.356 --> 0:06:12.796 of energy into organizing people by vote by mail. That's 0:06:12.596 --> 0:06:16.396 what's weird about this is vote by mail was probably 0:06:16.436 --> 0:06:19.876 one of the least partisan and least divisive issues in 0:06:19.916 --> 0:06:24.036 the whole voting area. And that is one one thing 0:06:24.076 --> 0:06:27.396 that I think is pretty hopeful. I mean, you say this, 0:06:27.476 --> 0:06:29.956 but we saw this play out in a seemingly just 0:06:30.476 --> 0:06:35.676 crazy and somewhat vicious way in Wisconsin, where democratic governor said, 0:06:35.916 --> 0:06:40.956 we're having a pandemic, let's extend, let's delay the election briefly, 0:06:41.116 --> 0:06:43.996 and let's have vote by mail. And I guess it's 0:06:44.036 --> 0:06:51.476 a Republican legislature and a conservative dominated state courts forced 0:06:51.476 --> 0:06:54.116 the election to happen, and there were these scenes of 0:06:54.276 --> 0:06:57.476 you know, people feeling very imperiled going out to vote 0:06:57.516 --> 0:07:00.396 in masks and so on. I mean, what happened there. 0:07:00.996 --> 0:07:06.436 People were so angry about their right to vote being 0:07:06.476 --> 0:07:08.876 taken away or about their health being put at risk, 0:07:09.396 --> 0:07:13.396 that they voted in greater numbers than anybody expected. One 0:07:13.436 --> 0:07:17.676 thing that happened is people in the state it wisconstant 0:07:17.756 --> 0:07:21.356 is one of those states that elects their state Supreme 0:07:21.396 --> 0:07:24.396 Court justices as much of the country does. The more 0:07:24.436 --> 0:07:28.036 progressive candidate won that race in a blowout in a 0:07:28.076 --> 0:07:31.996 way that nobody expected, and people being angry about what 0:07:32.076 --> 0:07:33.876 was happening with the voting seemed to be one of 0:07:33.916 --> 0:07:37.276 the reasons. Well, that's really interesting point, Michael. I mean, 0:07:37.476 --> 0:07:39.836 there is as part of an American history, you know, 0:07:41.316 --> 0:07:46.516 your vote acquires meaning in proportion to the effort by 0:07:46.556 --> 0:07:48.796 other people to deny you the right to vote. You know, 0:07:48.836 --> 0:07:51.156 you don't want a governor being able to say, oh, 0:07:51.196 --> 0:07:53.516 I'm going to postpone an election. I mean, we've had 0:07:53.556 --> 0:07:57.796 elections in this country under all kinds of die or circumstances, 0:07:57.876 --> 0:08:01.996 wars and in fact pandemics in the past, very tough circumstances, 0:08:02.836 --> 0:08:07.116 and we've always done it. We had an election in 0:08:07.236 --> 0:08:10.796 eighteen sixty four during the Civil War. Lincoln felt it 0:08:10.836 --> 0:08:13.756 was extraordinarily important to keep going and have the election, 0:08:13.796 --> 0:08:16.276 and it was actually the case that his victory speech 0:08:16.356 --> 0:08:21.796 was about why the significance of not letting the rebellion 0:08:21.916 --> 0:08:25.556 stop our elections. We had an election in nineteen eighteen. 0:08:25.756 --> 0:08:28.676 Turnout dropped and they had a lot of the same 0:08:28.716 --> 0:08:32.636 issues now and people wearing masks. But in the middle 0:08:32.676 --> 0:08:37.396 of the Spanish flu in nineteen forty two, when millions 0:08:37.396 --> 0:08:39.556 of people were caught up in World War Two, we 0:08:39.716 --> 0:08:45.036 ran elections. We've always had the steps taken that had 0:08:45.076 --> 0:08:47.876 to happen to make it so people could vote under 0:08:47.916 --> 0:08:53.476 the craziest of circumstances. We've never had a president basically 0:08:53.556 --> 0:08:57.996 saying out loud that he sees an opportunity to shrink 0:08:58.076 --> 0:09:03.436 turnout because of the crisis for political reasons. That has 0:09:03.476 --> 0:09:07.076 never happened before, and that would be really destructive if 0:09:07.076 --> 0:09:09.956 we let that guide. What we do as a part 0:09:09.956 --> 0:09:12.436 of assuring a fair election is making sure that you 0:09:12.476 --> 0:09:16.676 have technology that works that doesn't enable fraud or you know, 0:09:16.796 --> 0:09:19.516 just miscount votes, as of course we've dealt with in 0:09:20.356 --> 0:09:23.956 several recent elections. When we were kids, you know, we 0:09:24.396 --> 0:09:27.436 there was different technology from voting. I some of my 0:09:27.476 --> 0:09:30.636 favorite early memories are going with my parents in Chicago 0:09:30.676 --> 0:09:33.476 to vote on those giant machines, you know, with the 0:09:33.556 --> 0:09:36.276 curtain and they pulled the enormous lever and you know, 0:09:36.316 --> 0:09:40.156 my my parents would let me flick the little metallic 0:09:40.316 --> 0:09:43.716 levers to choose your candidate. And actually they still have 0:09:43.756 --> 0:09:45.276 machines when I go to vote in New York, but 0:09:45.316 --> 0:09:47.956 there are little machines and they they have this opti 0:09:48.036 --> 0:09:51.716 scan card. But you know, what's how does technology play 0:09:51.756 --> 0:09:54.836 into all of this? There was there was in you know, 0:09:54.956 --> 0:09:57.076 a lot of the country's history, a lot of fraud 0:09:57.156 --> 0:10:00.596 in voting. And one of the solutions has been technology. 0:10:00.756 --> 0:10:06.836 And you know, one of my earliest powerful memories around 0:10:07.956 --> 0:10:10.996 democracy about things that got me really interested in this 0:10:11.436 --> 0:10:14.796 whole thing is going with my parents to do this 0:10:14.916 --> 0:10:18.916 very sacramental thing where you not only could flick the switch, 0:10:18.956 --> 0:10:21.436 but you got to pull a lever to open the curtain, 0:10:21.476 --> 0:10:24.916 which meant the vote had been cast. The machine itself 0:10:24.996 --> 0:10:29.316 was considered a technological solution back in the late eighteen hundreds. 0:10:29.596 --> 0:10:32.476 It appears, you know, when you would go on election 0:10:32.556 --> 0:10:34.596 day and stand down at the river, you would see 0:10:34.596 --> 0:10:37.916 boxes floating on the river because the Democrats had gone 0:10:37.956 --> 0:10:40.636 to the Republican precincts and taken the boxes and throwing 0:10:40.676 --> 0:10:43.316 them in the river. And the Republicans had gone to 0:10:43.356 --> 0:10:45.916 the Democratic precincts and thrown them in the river. So 0:10:45.996 --> 0:10:48.956 they had basically they needed a technological fix. They said, 0:10:48.956 --> 0:10:52.676 we need a new voting system, a new voting machine. 0:10:53.156 --> 0:10:56.876 And the key specification was it had to be too 0:10:56.956 --> 0:11:00.356 heavy to pick up and throw in the river. And 0:11:00.716 --> 0:11:03.476 for all the problems with those machines, they were always 0:11:03.516 --> 0:11:05.676 too heavy to throw in the river, and it is 0:11:05.716 --> 0:11:09.036 the case that they were often prone to error or miscounting. 0:11:09.716 --> 0:11:13.636 The best way to have votes counted is with a 0:11:13.676 --> 0:11:19.396 paper ballot and counted by these machines. But having the 0:11:19.436 --> 0:11:22.356 paper ballot, having that backup so that you can do 0:11:22.716 --> 0:11:25.476 an audit so that you can see if there was fraud, 0:11:25.556 --> 0:11:28.036 so that you can do a recount. That turns out 0:11:28.036 --> 0:11:30.476 to be the best system of all, and we've evolved 0:11:30.516 --> 0:11:34.036 toward that even in this pandemic. That's what we've got. 0:11:34.636 --> 0:11:38.796 So let's talk about the solutions for twenty twenty. You know, 0:11:39.156 --> 0:11:41.596 the COVID election, as I'm sure it will go down 0:11:41.756 --> 0:11:44.516 in the history books. What are the key things that 0:11:44.596 --> 0:11:47.956 we need to do to make this election work? Most 0:11:47.956 --> 0:11:51.996 important thing is to have everybody have access to vote 0:11:52.036 --> 0:11:55.396 by mail, and the polls show that most people now 0:11:55.636 --> 0:11:57.476 expect to and want to be able to vote by 0:11:57.516 --> 0:12:00.316 mail this year. In addition to that, there are a 0:12:00.316 --> 0:12:03.316 lot of people who want to or need to vote 0:12:03.316 --> 0:12:06.756 in person, a lot of communities where the mail doesn't 0:12:06.756 --> 0:12:09.356 work so well. So what that means is you need 0:12:09.516 --> 0:12:14.956 safe in person voting, especially lots of early voting opportunities. 0:12:15.836 --> 0:12:19.116 We also need to make sure that these in person 0:12:19.196 --> 0:12:26.236 polling places are sanitary, for example, having masks and PPP 0:12:26.436 --> 0:12:31.396 for poll workers. It means having sanitation, and means having 0:12:31.516 --> 0:12:36.276 enough polling sites so open, early enough and early voting 0:12:36.356 --> 0:12:40.116 so that people can spread out their times when they 0:12:40.156 --> 0:12:44.196 go and stand online if they need to, in a 0:12:44.236 --> 0:12:47.036 way that's safe. You're saying the poll workers won't be 0:12:47.036 --> 0:12:49.676 able to share donuts in the usual way. You know, 0:12:49.796 --> 0:12:52.116 a lot of poll workers do it for the donuts. 0:12:52.196 --> 0:12:56.476 Let's be that's not really quite right. But the poll 0:12:56.516 --> 0:12:58.116 workers are very you know a lot of the poll 0:12:58.116 --> 0:13:00.676 workers are very dedicated. They've been doing it for years. 0:13:00.996 --> 0:13:04.156 They're often senior citizens. But this year we may need 0:13:04.236 --> 0:13:06.356 to make sure that there are the right number of 0:13:06.396 --> 0:13:10.196 people who can show up safely to run places. We 0:13:10.276 --> 0:13:14.676 have to change also how we register voters. Expand online 0:13:14.756 --> 0:13:17.996 voter registration, which a lot of states have, because you know, 0:13:18.476 --> 0:13:21.396 this year, people aren't going to be getting registered to 0:13:21.476 --> 0:13:25.396 vote with people standing in shopping centers with clipboards, and 0:13:25.436 --> 0:13:29.196 we did see voter registration rates of new voters collapse 0:13:30.076 --> 0:13:32.876 in March and April of this year. Whatever the results 0:13:32.876 --> 0:13:35.076 are an election night aren't going to be the final 0:13:35.196 --> 0:13:38.076 results because the states that vote by mail just take 0:13:38.156 --> 0:13:41.476 longer to count the ballots. States need to change their 0:13:41.636 --> 0:13:45.716 counting systems so that deadlines are going to shift because 0:13:45.716 --> 0:13:48.516 it takes longer to count paper ballots, and we have 0:13:48.596 --> 0:13:52.676 to have a real public education campaign to teach people 0:13:52.876 --> 0:13:55.036 how they can do it now it's different from what 0:13:55.076 --> 0:13:58.036 they're used to. All of these things can be done. 0:13:58.076 --> 0:14:01.276 They've all been done somewhere. That's why it's a solvable 0:14:01.676 --> 0:14:04.716 This is a solvable problem. We can have an election 0:14:04.756 --> 0:14:09.276 that is participatory with robust turnout in twenty twenty. But 0:14:09.316 --> 0:14:12.356 we've got to act. And what help do the states need? 0:14:12.476 --> 0:14:16.996 I mean, there's been discussion of congressional funding for vote 0:14:17.036 --> 0:14:19.796 by mail efforts and for some of these procedures that 0:14:19.836 --> 0:14:23.196 are needed to make in person voting safer. Do they 0:14:23.236 --> 0:14:25.396 really need a lot of money? And are we going 0:14:25.436 --> 0:14:28.116 to have an issue with supplies the way we did 0:14:28.116 --> 0:14:31.916 early in the crisis around PPP and masks. You know, 0:14:32.316 --> 0:14:35.956 is there enough watermarked paper for all these mail ballots 0:14:36.036 --> 0:14:38.476 or you know the technology around vote by mail? Do 0:14:38.556 --> 0:14:41.836 we have the supplies and equipment? The main thing they 0:14:41.876 --> 0:14:45.076 need is money. They need help from the federal government. 0:14:45.556 --> 0:14:50.836 Only the federal government can spend right now, states many 0:14:50.876 --> 0:14:54.276 of them have balanced budget requirements, and so that's why 0:14:54.276 --> 0:14:56.916 these stimulus bills and the ability of the federal government 0:14:56.996 --> 0:15:00.996 to spend and provide resources is so important. The Brennan 0:15:01.036 --> 0:15:04.876 Center has calculated that what will need to happen will 0:15:04.916 --> 0:15:09.596 cost up to four billion dollars in twenty twenty, and 0:15:09.916 --> 0:15:15.876 Congress past in appropriation for the first four hundred million dollars. 0:15:16.436 --> 0:15:19.316 Congress has to act, and if Congress doesn't act, it 0:15:19.396 --> 0:15:22.196 is going to be very hard for states to do 0:15:22.276 --> 0:15:24.956 what they want to and need to do. Time is 0:15:25.076 --> 0:15:28.316 really really of the essence. There are deadlines, there are 0:15:28.356 --> 0:15:33.436 supply chain issues. Election officials can't just walk into a 0:15:33.556 --> 0:15:36.796 Staples in October and buy a bunch of scanners to 0:15:37.276 --> 0:15:39.436 look at the voting machines. They have to order them now. 0:15:40.476 --> 0:15:44.716 And there are really tight deadlines. So one of the 0:15:44.836 --> 0:15:47.196 terrible things would be if we woke up in a 0:15:47.196 --> 0:15:49.596 few months and realized that we needed to do this 0:15:49.676 --> 0:15:52.836 but that the window to do it had closed. How 0:15:52.876 --> 0:15:56.476 worried should we be about the post Office? The post 0:15:56.516 --> 0:15:59.196 Office is going to run out of funding if something 0:15:59.276 --> 0:16:03.276 isn't done and September and the President again is sort 0:16:03.316 --> 0:16:05.956 of seems to see the post Office as part of, 0:16:05.996 --> 0:16:08.036 you know, this thing that's going to enable people to 0:16:08.156 --> 0:16:11.356 vote more than he wants them to, you know. And 0:16:11.436 --> 0:16:14.436 I was also amazed to learn reading about this that 0:16:14.556 --> 0:16:18.516 mail in ballots don't come post paid. That is, you 0:16:18.556 --> 0:16:20.876 need a stamp. And you know, I don't know your 0:16:20.956 --> 0:16:22.916 children are a little older than mine, but you know, 0:16:23.196 --> 0:16:25.636 people who are voting for the first time are often 0:16:25.716 --> 0:16:29.716 not familiar with the technology of mail and stamps as 0:16:29.756 --> 0:16:32.476 things you need to have to mail letters. Yeah, I mean, 0:16:32.676 --> 0:16:35.076 the post office is running out of money. We think 0:16:35.116 --> 0:16:39.236 it's important that postage be prepaid. Also, a lot of 0:16:39.276 --> 0:16:41.396 people are kind of nervous about sticking a ballot in 0:16:41.716 --> 0:16:44.316 a mailbox you know, is going to really go where 0:16:44.316 --> 0:16:46.556 I want it to go. So a lot of places 0:16:46.556 --> 0:16:50.196 that do vote by mail, people get the ballots at home, 0:16:50.556 --> 0:16:53.036 but they can drop them off at their convenience, in 0:16:53.076 --> 0:16:57.476 a secure and guarded box, you know, at a government office. 0:16:57.516 --> 0:16:59.996 And that is actually how a lot of people vote. 0:17:00.036 --> 0:17:03.076 It's really voted home rather than vote by mail alone. 0:17:03.756 --> 0:17:06.076 By how will we know whether we've solved this problem? 0:17:06.116 --> 0:17:09.676 One measure will simply be whether people feel safe and 0:17:09.756 --> 0:17:11.636 secure and that they've been able to vote and their 0:17:11.716 --> 0:17:14.516 votes have been counted. You know, Should we be judging 0:17:14.516 --> 0:17:17.076 it by turnout? I mean, we've had this big oscillation 0:17:17.116 --> 0:17:20.796 and turnout in American elections is there a turnout level 0:17:20.956 --> 0:17:23.836 that will say to us, we've succeeded in twenty twenty. 0:17:24.356 --> 0:17:27.796 In twenty fourteen, we had the lowest voter turnout in 0:17:27.876 --> 0:17:31.316 seventy two years. It was for a mid term, but 0:17:31.396 --> 0:17:34.396 that's how you do the comparison. That was like a 0:17:34.436 --> 0:17:38.916 real sign of a withdrawal of public trust, of disaffection. 0:17:39.276 --> 0:17:43.196 But in twenty eighteen, we had the highest voter turnout 0:17:43.236 --> 0:17:47.036 in a century. People were reacting to Trump, people were 0:17:47.116 --> 0:17:51.876 voting supporting Trump. They were certainly kindled in their activism 0:17:51.996 --> 0:17:55.276 and a real surge and youth voting and other things 0:17:55.396 --> 0:17:59.196 to repudiate and protest Trump. So this was gonna be 0:17:59.236 --> 0:18:02.516 We were all preparing for the highest turnout record high 0:18:02.516 --> 0:18:06.196 turnout in twenty twenty. If there's a collapse in turnout, 0:18:06.636 --> 0:18:09.556 that is not going to be because people just don't 0:18:09.556 --> 0:18:13.636 care whether Trump gets reelected. We'll also know if people 0:18:13.636 --> 0:18:17.116 are having to stand in line in very unsafe situations. 0:18:18.036 --> 0:18:21.356 You know, this election is already so much distrust and 0:18:21.476 --> 0:18:25.636 so much anger and so much misinformation. We can't allow 0:18:25.676 --> 0:18:29.116 anything to happen that's going to just make people distrusted 0:18:29.196 --> 0:18:32.636 even more. Think now about the scenes from the Michigan 0:18:32.676 --> 0:18:39.076 State House militia members carrying AR fifteens have invaded the 0:18:39.116 --> 0:18:41.716 state House and actually stop the state legislature from doing 0:18:41.716 --> 0:18:45.236 its work. It's the most shocking thing you can imagine. 0:18:45.476 --> 0:18:48.396 It's shocking, and we're going to have a risk of 0:18:48.476 --> 0:18:51.156 seeing too much of that kind of thing if people 0:18:51.196 --> 0:18:53.756 don't trust how the elections are being run and if 0:18:53.796 --> 0:18:57.556 they unfold in chaos in November. I'm very worried about 0:18:57.556 --> 0:18:59.796 this kind of thing, Mike. To wrap up, I wanted 0:18:59.836 --> 0:19:02.476 to ask you a little bit about what listeners can do, 0:19:02.596 --> 0:19:06.396 and in particular, if you are really concerned about the 0:19:06.436 --> 0:19:08.956 safety and security of the election in twenty twenty, should 0:19:08.956 --> 0:19:12.916 you focusing your efforts locally or nationally. First of all, 0:19:13.036 --> 0:19:16.516 speak out, let your members of Congress know that they 0:19:16.556 --> 0:19:22.076 should put aside the partisanship and support the resources for 0:19:22.236 --> 0:19:24.116 states to be able to do this, and let people 0:19:24.156 --> 0:19:27.876 in state capitals know the same thing this year too. 0:19:27.916 --> 0:19:31.876 There's individual steps that people can take. Find out and 0:19:31.956 --> 0:19:35.556 make sure you are registered. Most states have the ability 0:19:35.596 --> 0:19:39.036 to do that through a website online. You want to 0:19:39.076 --> 0:19:42.116 make sure that you're not purged from the voter rolls 0:19:42.276 --> 0:19:45.756 or that something hasn't happened so that it's all going 0:19:45.796 --> 0:19:47.556 to be very different now, and you want to make 0:19:47.596 --> 0:19:51.756 sure you're registered. Find out also what the deadlines are 0:19:52.316 --> 0:19:56.476 forgetting an absentee ballot or a mail ballot, if that's 0:19:56.516 --> 0:19:59.036 what you want to do. It's not going to just 0:19:59.076 --> 0:20:01.956 show up most of the time in your mailbox and 0:20:02.036 --> 0:20:03.996 you fill it out. You've got to ask for it. 0:20:04.316 --> 0:20:06.956 We can help our parents do that if they need 0:20:06.996 --> 0:20:11.636 the technological help, but we all have a big responsibility. Yeah, 0:20:11.756 --> 0:20:14.756 but is there a legitimate other side to this issue? 0:20:14.836 --> 0:20:17.116 I mean, when I hear you talking, this stuff seems 0:20:17.156 --> 0:20:20.236 so obvious. We should make it possible for people to vote. 0:20:20.236 --> 0:20:22.156 We should make it easier for people to vote, should 0:20:22.476 --> 0:20:24.796 be safe for people to vote. More people should vote. 0:20:25.916 --> 0:20:28.716 Is there an argument other than the purely partisan one 0:20:29.356 --> 0:20:33.236 that more voting may advantage one party versus the other, 0:20:33.796 --> 0:20:37.116 against the kinds of things that Brennan Center advocates in 0:20:37.236 --> 0:20:43.836 terms of expanding voting rights. You know, the notion that 0:20:43.956 --> 0:20:47.196 everybody who's eligible should be able to vote is in 0:20:47.236 --> 0:20:50.476 many ways at the heart of our civic religion. It's 0:20:50.596 --> 0:20:55.836 it's it's a core patriotic, widely shared view. You hear 0:20:55.956 --> 0:21:00.116 arguments that voting is a privilege, not a right, but 0:21:00.156 --> 0:21:03.236 the right to vote is actually in the Constitution, mentioned 0:21:03.316 --> 0:21:07.596 five times in the amendments. It's something we all really 0:21:07.796 --> 0:21:11.236 believe in. It As America, you also hear people say 0:21:11.516 --> 0:21:15.876 that they're worried about election integrity and voter fraud, and 0:21:15.916 --> 0:21:20.076 it's really important that we have elections that are reliable 0:21:20.116 --> 0:21:23.076 and that we have election integrity, and that means, among 0:21:23.116 --> 0:21:28.156 other things, focusing on the real threats such as cybersecurity. 0:21:28.196 --> 0:21:32.356 And we know that Russia in twenty sixteen try to 0:21:32.396 --> 0:21:35.436 get into the election systems in all fifty states, and 0:21:35.556 --> 0:21:39.436 this time there's every reason to worry that Russia or 0:21:39.436 --> 0:21:43.196 other countries or other malevolent actors will be doing the 0:21:43.276 --> 0:21:46.516 same thing. So it's not that there aren't risks of 0:21:46.756 --> 0:21:51.516 misconduct in fraud. It is not the case that millions 0:21:51.556 --> 0:21:55.996 of illegal voters are magically and mysteriously voting. And when 0:21:56.036 --> 0:22:01.356 you look at all the research, voter fraud is vanishingly rare. 0:22:02.356 --> 0:22:05.876 You're more likely to be struck by lightning than commit 0:22:06.276 --> 0:22:09.876 in person voter impersonation. In the United States, that worry 0:22:10.076 --> 0:22:14.676 is addressable and is overwhelmed by the need to make 0:22:14.676 --> 0:22:18.596 sure that everybody who's eligible to vote can vote. To me, 0:22:18.676 --> 0:22:21.996 that's the only legitimate way to run an election. Mike, 0:22:22.156 --> 0:22:24.796 is great to see you via zoom, and I want 0:22:24.796 --> 0:22:29.836 to thank you for joining us Unsolvable. Thank you. That 0:22:30.036 --> 0:22:33.116 was Michael Waldman, President of the Brennan Center for Justice. 0:22:33.596 --> 0:22:36.036 Remember to check out our show notes for links to 0:22:36.076 --> 0:22:38.596 the suggestions our guests make for ways that you can 0:22:38.636 --> 0:22:42.636 get involved. Next week, we'll continue our election series with 0:22:42.716 --> 0:22:46.916 a conversation with Kristen Clark, President and Executive director of 0:22:46.956 --> 0:22:50.676 the National Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights under Law. She 0:22:50.876 --> 0:22:54.596 believes that the problem of voter suppression is solvable. Please 0:22:54.676 --> 0:22:57.956 join us. Solvable is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. 0:22:58.196 --> 0:23:02.756 Our show is produced by Camille Baptista, Senior producer Jocelyn Frank. 0:23:03.156 --> 0:23:06.876 Catherine Girardou is our managing producer, and our executive producer 0:23:06.956 --> 0:23:10.796 is Mia Lobell. Special thanks to Heather Faine, Eric Sandler, 0:23:10.916 --> 0:23:14.716 Carle Magliore and Kidija Holland. I'm Jacob Weisberg.