1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:25,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome to Solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. Think now about 2 00:00:25,716 --> 00:00:30,716 Speaker 1: the scenes from the Michigan State House militia members carrying 3 00:00:31,076 --> 00:00:34,596 Speaker 1: AR fifteens. It's the most shocking thing you can imagine. 4 00:00:35,156 --> 00:00:38,116 Speaker 1: It's shocking, and we're going to have a risk of 5 00:00:38,156 --> 00:00:41,156 Speaker 1: seeing too much of that kind of thing. The states 6 00:00:41,196 --> 00:00:45,516 Speaker 1: are extremely high for this year's election. Experts had anticipated 7 00:00:45,516 --> 00:00:49,516 Speaker 1: the largest turnout in a century. States were registering voters 8 00:00:49,516 --> 00:00:54,836 Speaker 1: and preparing their precincts, and then COVID nineteen hit. Priorities 9 00:00:54,836 --> 00:00:57,756 Speaker 1: suddenly shifted. You know, you don't want a governor being 10 00:00:57,796 --> 00:01:00,476 Speaker 1: able to say, oh, I'm going to postpone an election. 11 00:01:00,556 --> 00:01:03,596 Speaker 1: I mean, we've had elections in this country under all 12 00:01:03,716 --> 00:01:07,396 Speaker 1: kinds of dire circumstances, wars and in fact pandemics in 13 00:01:07,436 --> 00:01:10,716 Speaker 1: the past. But having the paper ballot, having that backup 14 00:01:10,756 --> 00:01:13,036 Speaker 1: so that you can do an audit, so that you 15 00:01:13,076 --> 00:01:15,436 Speaker 1: can see if there was fraud, so that you can 16 00:01:15,476 --> 00:01:17,876 Speaker 1: do a recount, that turns out to be the best 17 00:01:17,876 --> 00:01:20,756 Speaker 1: system of all. Is there an argument other than the 18 00:01:20,876 --> 00:01:25,956 Speaker 1: purely partisan one that more voting may advantage one party 19 00:01:26,076 --> 00:01:29,196 Speaker 1: versus the other, You're more likely to be struck by 20 00:01:29,316 --> 00:01:33,836 Speaker 1: lightning than commit in person voter impersonation in the United States. 21 00:01:34,956 --> 00:01:38,556 Speaker 1: But there are other real hurdles to this year's election. 22 00:01:39,316 --> 00:01:43,316 Speaker 1: With millions of Americans vulnerable to a deadly pandemic, social 23 00:01:43,396 --> 00:01:46,236 Speaker 1: distancing measure is now a familiar part of life, and 24 00:01:46,356 --> 00:01:49,876 Speaker 1: the country facing what is perhaps the largest economic crisis 25 00:01:49,876 --> 00:01:53,956 Speaker 1: in its history, the challenge of securing a safe election 26 00:01:54,276 --> 00:01:58,316 Speaker 1: with high rates of participation is huge. We can have 27 00:01:58,356 --> 00:02:03,596 Speaker 1: an election that is participatory with robust turnout in twenty twenty. 28 00:02:03,676 --> 00:02:08,956 Speaker 1: This is a solvable problem. Michael Waldman is the author 29 00:02:08,956 --> 00:02:11,556 Speaker 1: of the book The Fight to Vote. He's the president 30 00:02:11,596 --> 00:02:14,556 Speaker 1: of the Brennan Center for Justice at NYU. It's a 31 00:02:14,636 --> 00:02:18,916 Speaker 1: nonpartisan law and policy institute that focuses on improving systems 32 00:02:18,916 --> 00:02:22,556 Speaker 1: of democracy. Waldman is an expert in the practicalities of 33 00:02:22,596 --> 00:02:27,236 Speaker 1: the democratic process. He's identified some straightforward solutions to this 34 00:02:27,316 --> 00:02:32,516 Speaker 1: year's election challenges. My solvable is having an election that 35 00:02:32,636 --> 00:02:36,516 Speaker 1: is safe and secure and fully participatory in the middle 36 00:02:36,556 --> 00:02:40,276 Speaker 1: of the coronavirus pandemic and Mike, we can't really predict 37 00:02:40,676 --> 00:02:43,156 Speaker 1: what it's going to be like in November. What are 38 00:02:43,156 --> 00:02:45,796 Speaker 1: the main things we as a country and as states 39 00:02:45,876 --> 00:02:48,556 Speaker 1: need to do. Well, You're right that we don't know 40 00:02:48,676 --> 00:02:51,996 Speaker 1: what it's going to be like in November. The bottom 41 00:02:52,036 --> 00:02:56,076 Speaker 1: line is we need to upgrade how we run elections 42 00:02:56,076 --> 00:02:59,636 Speaker 1: in the United States for twenty twenty, so that people 43 00:03:00,276 --> 00:03:03,316 Speaker 1: have the option of voting by mail, so that there 44 00:03:03,356 --> 00:03:07,756 Speaker 1: are safe in person options and ample early voting, so 45 00:03:07,796 --> 00:03:10,796 Speaker 1: that people can register to vote safely, and so that 46 00:03:10,876 --> 00:03:14,716 Speaker 1: we count the ballots in a careful way. Recognizing that 47 00:03:14,796 --> 00:03:19,116 Speaker 1: everything's changed, vote by mail seems like a pretty simple 48 00:03:19,316 --> 00:03:22,916 Speaker 1: and obvious solution. I mean, I understand their legal obstacles 49 00:03:22,916 --> 00:03:26,276 Speaker 1: in some states and their funding obstacles, but in your 50 00:03:26,316 --> 00:03:31,476 Speaker 1: ideal world, wouldn't we just send a prepaid ballot to 51 00:03:31,516 --> 00:03:35,316 Speaker 1: everybody who's registered and encourage them to vote that way. Well, 52 00:03:35,356 --> 00:03:38,996 Speaker 1: a lot of states already run their elections by vote 53 00:03:39,036 --> 00:03:44,156 Speaker 1: by mail, Western states, especially like California and Oregon and 54 00:03:44,276 --> 00:03:48,716 Speaker 1: Washington and Colorado and Utah. That's pretty much how people 55 00:03:48,796 --> 00:03:53,236 Speaker 1: vote right now. It will be impossible to imagine the 56 00:03:53,316 --> 00:03:58,356 Speaker 1: whole country moving to vote by mail in November. What 57 00:03:58,396 --> 00:04:01,356 Speaker 1: we can do in the meantime is make it so 58 00:04:01,476 --> 00:04:06,356 Speaker 1: that people are notified of their opportunity to get a ballot, 59 00:04:06,716 --> 00:04:09,076 Speaker 1: and that they don't need an excuse, they don't need 60 00:04:09,156 --> 00:04:12,396 Speaker 1: the doctor's note, and we have every reason to think 61 00:04:12,436 --> 00:04:15,676 Speaker 1: that most people right now will want to vote that way. Yeah. 62 00:04:15,716 --> 00:04:18,236 Speaker 1: I mean, you wrote a whole book about the history 63 00:04:18,276 --> 00:04:22,116 Speaker 1: of voting in the expansion of voting rights in this country. 64 00:04:22,316 --> 00:04:25,636 Speaker 1: The thing I don't understand about it older people who 65 00:04:25,676 --> 00:04:28,556 Speaker 1: tend to be more conservative, tend to vote with the Republicans, 66 00:04:28,996 --> 00:04:32,596 Speaker 1: are the most in need of remote voting options and 67 00:04:32,676 --> 00:04:35,796 Speaker 1: the most in jeopardy from having to go out to 68 00:04:35,916 --> 00:04:38,276 Speaker 1: vote in person. Yet it seems to be conservatives who 69 00:04:38,276 --> 00:04:40,596 Speaker 1: are fighting the vote by mail things. So can you 70 00:04:40,596 --> 00:04:43,156 Speaker 1: explain that to me? Well, you know, there's lots of 71 00:04:43,196 --> 00:04:46,716 Speaker 1: things when it comes to voting that are controversial where 72 00:04:46,716 --> 00:04:49,596 Speaker 1: there have been partisan fights. If you think about something 73 00:04:49,636 --> 00:04:52,716 Speaker 1: like the debate over what kind of voter ID makes sense, 74 00:04:53,036 --> 00:04:57,716 Speaker 1: that's pretty intense and has been in a kind of Democrat, 75 00:04:57,796 --> 00:05:01,276 Speaker 1: Republican left right way. Vote by mail has not been 76 00:05:01,316 --> 00:05:05,236 Speaker 1: one of the controversial things. The further away you get 77 00:05:05,276 --> 00:05:09,756 Speaker 1: from the Fox News set or I guess the White 78 00:05:09,796 --> 00:05:13,596 Speaker 1: House podium, the less partisan this is. Trump first said 79 00:05:14,196 --> 00:05:17,756 Speaker 1: out loud what you're really not supposed to say, which 80 00:05:17,796 --> 00:05:19,796 Speaker 1: is oh, we'll get levels of voting that are so 81 00:05:19,876 --> 00:05:24,556 Speaker 1: high that we'll never win. And then after a few 82 00:05:24,636 --> 00:05:27,116 Speaker 1: days he realized he'd gone off script, and what he 83 00:05:27,116 --> 00:05:30,116 Speaker 1: said is, oh, I'm very worried about the specter of 84 00:05:30,716 --> 00:05:33,476 Speaker 1: voter fraud. But he really made clear the goal was 85 00:05:33,516 --> 00:05:36,396 Speaker 1: to restrict the electorate, but started drama. But that's my question. 86 00:05:36,516 --> 00:05:39,556 Speaker 1: Is it possible that he's wrong? That is, in general terms, 87 00:05:39,636 --> 00:05:43,916 Speaker 1: more people voting might advantage Democrats, but in specific terms, 88 00:05:44,156 --> 00:05:47,196 Speaker 1: a lot of the things Democrats are advocating right now 89 00:05:47,596 --> 00:05:52,036 Speaker 1: might just advantage Republicans. More political scientists say that it 90 00:05:52,116 --> 00:05:56,036 Speaker 1: hasn't affected one party or another, that vote by mail 91 00:05:56,156 --> 00:06:01,876 Speaker 1: hasn't benefited one party or another. Republican campaigns and Democratic 92 00:06:01,876 --> 00:06:06,636 Speaker 1: campaigns are organizing voters to vote by mail. It hasn't 93 00:06:06,676 --> 00:06:09,356 Speaker 1: stopped the Republican Party of Florida from pouring a lot 94 00:06:09,356 --> 00:06:12,796 Speaker 1: of energy into organizing people by vote by mail. That's 95 00:06:12,596 --> 00:06:16,396 Speaker 1: what's weird about this is vote by mail was probably 96 00:06:16,436 --> 00:06:19,876 Speaker 1: one of the least partisan and least divisive issues in 97 00:06:19,916 --> 00:06:24,036 Speaker 1: the whole voting area. And that is one one thing 98 00:06:24,076 --> 00:06:27,396 Speaker 1: that I think is pretty hopeful. I mean, you say this, 99 00:06:27,476 --> 00:06:29,956 Speaker 1: but we saw this play out in a seemingly just 100 00:06:30,476 --> 00:06:35,676 Speaker 1: crazy and somewhat vicious way in Wisconsin, where democratic governor said, 101 00:06:35,916 --> 00:06:40,956 Speaker 1: we're having a pandemic, let's extend, let's delay the election briefly, 102 00:06:41,116 --> 00:06:43,996 Speaker 1: and let's have vote by mail. And I guess it's 103 00:06:44,036 --> 00:06:51,476 Speaker 1: a Republican legislature and a conservative dominated state courts forced 104 00:06:51,476 --> 00:06:54,116 Speaker 1: the election to happen, and there were these scenes of 105 00:06:54,276 --> 00:06:57,476 Speaker 1: you know, people feeling very imperiled going out to vote 106 00:06:57,516 --> 00:07:00,396 Speaker 1: in masks and so on. I mean, what happened there. 107 00:07:00,996 --> 00:07:06,436 Speaker 1: People were so angry about their right to vote being 108 00:07:06,476 --> 00:07:08,876 Speaker 1: taken away or about their health being put at risk, 109 00:07:09,396 --> 00:07:13,396 Speaker 1: that they voted in greater numbers than anybody expected. One 110 00:07:13,436 --> 00:07:17,676 Speaker 1: thing that happened is people in the state it wisconstant 111 00:07:17,756 --> 00:07:21,356 Speaker 1: is one of those states that elects their state Supreme 112 00:07:21,396 --> 00:07:24,396 Speaker 1: Court justices as much of the country does. The more 113 00:07:24,436 --> 00:07:28,036 Speaker 1: progressive candidate won that race in a blowout in a 114 00:07:28,076 --> 00:07:31,996 Speaker 1: way that nobody expected, and people being angry about what 115 00:07:32,076 --> 00:07:33,876 Speaker 1: was happening with the voting seemed to be one of 116 00:07:33,916 --> 00:07:37,276 Speaker 1: the reasons. Well, that's really interesting point, Michael. I mean, 117 00:07:37,476 --> 00:07:39,836 Speaker 1: there is as part of an American history, you know, 118 00:07:41,316 --> 00:07:46,516 Speaker 1: your vote acquires meaning in proportion to the effort by 119 00:07:46,556 --> 00:07:48,796 Speaker 1: other people to deny you the right to vote. You know, 120 00:07:48,836 --> 00:07:51,156 Speaker 1: you don't want a governor being able to say, oh, 121 00:07:51,196 --> 00:07:53,516 Speaker 1: I'm going to postpone an election. I mean, we've had 122 00:07:53,556 --> 00:07:57,796 Speaker 1: elections in this country under all kinds of die or circumstances, 123 00:07:57,876 --> 00:08:01,996 Speaker 1: wars and in fact pandemics in the past, very tough circumstances, 124 00:08:02,836 --> 00:08:07,116 Speaker 1: and we've always done it. We had an election in 125 00:08:07,236 --> 00:08:10,796 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty four during the Civil War. Lincoln felt it 126 00:08:10,836 --> 00:08:13,756 Speaker 1: was extraordinarily important to keep going and have the election, 127 00:08:13,796 --> 00:08:16,276 Speaker 1: and it was actually the case that his victory speech 128 00:08:16,356 --> 00:08:21,796 Speaker 1: was about why the significance of not letting the rebellion 129 00:08:21,916 --> 00:08:25,556 Speaker 1: stop our elections. We had an election in nineteen eighteen. 130 00:08:25,756 --> 00:08:28,676 Speaker 1: Turnout dropped and they had a lot of the same 131 00:08:28,716 --> 00:08:32,636 Speaker 1: issues now and people wearing masks. But in the middle 132 00:08:32,676 --> 00:08:37,396 Speaker 1: of the Spanish flu in nineteen forty two, when millions 133 00:08:37,396 --> 00:08:39,556 Speaker 1: of people were caught up in World War Two, we 134 00:08:39,716 --> 00:08:45,036 Speaker 1: ran elections. We've always had the steps taken that had 135 00:08:45,076 --> 00:08:47,876 Speaker 1: to happen to make it so people could vote under 136 00:08:47,916 --> 00:08:53,476 Speaker 1: the craziest of circumstances. We've never had a president basically 137 00:08:53,556 --> 00:08:57,996 Speaker 1: saying out loud that he sees an opportunity to shrink 138 00:08:58,076 --> 00:09:03,436 Speaker 1: turnout because of the crisis for political reasons. That has 139 00:09:03,476 --> 00:09:07,076 Speaker 1: never happened before, and that would be really destructive if 140 00:09:07,076 --> 00:09:09,956 Speaker 1: we let that guide. What we do as a part 141 00:09:09,956 --> 00:09:12,436 Speaker 1: of assuring a fair election is making sure that you 142 00:09:12,476 --> 00:09:16,676 Speaker 1: have technology that works that doesn't enable fraud or you know, 143 00:09:16,796 --> 00:09:19,516 Speaker 1: just miscount votes, as of course we've dealt with in 144 00:09:20,356 --> 00:09:23,956 Speaker 1: several recent elections. When we were kids, you know, we 145 00:09:24,396 --> 00:09:27,436 Speaker 1: there was different technology from voting. I some of my 146 00:09:27,476 --> 00:09:30,636 Speaker 1: favorite early memories are going with my parents in Chicago 147 00:09:30,676 --> 00:09:33,476 Speaker 1: to vote on those giant machines, you know, with the 148 00:09:33,556 --> 00:09:36,276 Speaker 1: curtain and they pulled the enormous lever and you know, 149 00:09:36,316 --> 00:09:40,156 Speaker 1: my my parents would let me flick the little metallic 150 00:09:40,316 --> 00:09:43,716 Speaker 1: levers to choose your candidate. And actually they still have 151 00:09:43,756 --> 00:09:45,276 Speaker 1: machines when I go to vote in New York, but 152 00:09:45,316 --> 00:09:47,956 Speaker 1: there are little machines and they they have this opti 153 00:09:48,036 --> 00:09:51,716 Speaker 1: scan card. But you know, what's how does technology play 154 00:09:51,756 --> 00:09:54,836 Speaker 1: into all of this? There was there was in you know, 155 00:09:54,956 --> 00:09:57,076 Speaker 1: a lot of the country's history, a lot of fraud 156 00:09:57,156 --> 00:10:00,596 Speaker 1: in voting. And one of the solutions has been technology. 157 00:10:00,756 --> 00:10:06,836 Speaker 1: And you know, one of my earliest powerful memories around 158 00:10:07,956 --> 00:10:10,996 Speaker 1: democracy about things that got me really interested in this 159 00:10:11,436 --> 00:10:14,796 Speaker 1: whole thing is going with my parents to do this 160 00:10:14,916 --> 00:10:18,916 Speaker 1: very sacramental thing where you not only could flick the switch, 161 00:10:18,956 --> 00:10:21,436 Speaker 1: but you got to pull a lever to open the curtain, 162 00:10:21,476 --> 00:10:24,916 Speaker 1: which meant the vote had been cast. The machine itself 163 00:10:24,996 --> 00:10:29,316 Speaker 1: was considered a technological solution back in the late eighteen hundreds. 164 00:10:29,596 --> 00:10:32,476 Speaker 1: It appears, you know, when you would go on election 165 00:10:32,556 --> 00:10:34,596 Speaker 1: day and stand down at the river, you would see 166 00:10:34,596 --> 00:10:37,916 Speaker 1: boxes floating on the river because the Democrats had gone 167 00:10:37,956 --> 00:10:40,636 Speaker 1: to the Republican precincts and taken the boxes and throwing 168 00:10:40,676 --> 00:10:43,316 Speaker 1: them in the river. And the Republicans had gone to 169 00:10:43,356 --> 00:10:45,916 Speaker 1: the Democratic precincts and thrown them in the river. So 170 00:10:45,996 --> 00:10:48,956 Speaker 1: they had basically they needed a technological fix. They said, 171 00:10:48,956 --> 00:10:52,676 Speaker 1: we need a new voting system, a new voting machine. 172 00:10:53,156 --> 00:10:56,876 Speaker 1: And the key specification was it had to be too 173 00:10:56,956 --> 00:11:00,356 Speaker 1: heavy to pick up and throw in the river. And 174 00:11:00,716 --> 00:11:03,476 Speaker 1: for all the problems with those machines, they were always 175 00:11:03,516 --> 00:11:05,676 Speaker 1: too heavy to throw in the river, and it is 176 00:11:05,716 --> 00:11:09,036 Speaker 1: the case that they were often prone to error or miscounting. 177 00:11:09,716 --> 00:11:13,636 Speaker 1: The best way to have votes counted is with a 178 00:11:13,676 --> 00:11:19,396 Speaker 1: paper ballot and counted by these machines. But having the 179 00:11:19,436 --> 00:11:22,356 Speaker 1: paper ballot, having that backup so that you can do 180 00:11:22,716 --> 00:11:25,476 Speaker 1: an audit so that you can see if there was fraud, 181 00:11:25,556 --> 00:11:28,036 Speaker 1: so that you can do a recount. That turns out 182 00:11:28,036 --> 00:11:30,476 Speaker 1: to be the best system of all, and we've evolved 183 00:11:30,516 --> 00:11:34,036 Speaker 1: toward that even in this pandemic. That's what we've got. 184 00:11:34,636 --> 00:11:38,796 Speaker 1: So let's talk about the solutions for twenty twenty. You know, 185 00:11:39,156 --> 00:11:41,596 Speaker 1: the COVID election, as I'm sure it will go down 186 00:11:41,756 --> 00:11:44,516 Speaker 1: in the history books. What are the key things that 187 00:11:44,596 --> 00:11:47,956 Speaker 1: we need to do to make this election work? Most 188 00:11:47,956 --> 00:11:51,996 Speaker 1: important thing is to have everybody have access to vote 189 00:11:52,036 --> 00:11:55,396 Speaker 1: by mail, and the polls show that most people now 190 00:11:55,636 --> 00:11:57,476 Speaker 1: expect to and want to be able to vote by 191 00:11:57,516 --> 00:12:00,316 Speaker 1: mail this year. In addition to that, there are a 192 00:12:00,316 --> 00:12:03,316 Speaker 1: lot of people who want to or need to vote 193 00:12:03,316 --> 00:12:06,756 Speaker 1: in person, a lot of communities where the mail doesn't 194 00:12:06,756 --> 00:12:09,356 Speaker 1: work so well. So what that means is you need 195 00:12:09,516 --> 00:12:14,956 Speaker 1: safe in person voting, especially lots of early voting opportunities. 196 00:12:15,836 --> 00:12:19,116 Speaker 1: We also need to make sure that these in person 197 00:12:19,196 --> 00:12:26,236 Speaker 1: polling places are sanitary, for example, having masks and PPP 198 00:12:26,436 --> 00:12:31,396 Speaker 1: for poll workers. It means having sanitation, and means having 199 00:12:31,516 --> 00:12:36,276 Speaker 1: enough polling sites so open, early enough and early voting 200 00:12:36,356 --> 00:12:40,116 Speaker 1: so that people can spread out their times when they 201 00:12:40,156 --> 00:12:44,196 Speaker 1: go and stand online if they need to, in a 202 00:12:44,236 --> 00:12:47,036 Speaker 1: way that's safe. You're saying the poll workers won't be 203 00:12:47,036 --> 00:12:49,676 Speaker 1: able to share donuts in the usual way. You know, 204 00:12:49,796 --> 00:12:52,116 Speaker 1: a lot of poll workers do it for the donuts. 205 00:12:52,196 --> 00:12:56,476 Speaker 1: Let's be that's not really quite right. But the poll 206 00:12:56,516 --> 00:12:58,116 Speaker 1: workers are very you know a lot of the poll 207 00:12:58,116 --> 00:13:00,676 Speaker 1: workers are very dedicated. They've been doing it for years. 208 00:13:00,996 --> 00:13:04,156 Speaker 1: They're often senior citizens. But this year we may need 209 00:13:04,236 --> 00:13:06,356 Speaker 1: to make sure that there are the right number of 210 00:13:06,396 --> 00:13:10,196 Speaker 1: people who can show up safely to run places. We 211 00:13:10,276 --> 00:13:14,676 Speaker 1: have to change also how we register voters. Expand online 212 00:13:14,756 --> 00:13:17,996 Speaker 1: voter registration, which a lot of states have, because you know, 213 00:13:18,476 --> 00:13:21,396 Speaker 1: this year, people aren't going to be getting registered to 214 00:13:21,476 --> 00:13:25,396 Speaker 1: vote with people standing in shopping centers with clipboards, and 215 00:13:25,436 --> 00:13:29,196 Speaker 1: we did see voter registration rates of new voters collapse 216 00:13:30,076 --> 00:13:32,876 Speaker 1: in March and April of this year. Whatever the results 217 00:13:32,876 --> 00:13:35,076 Speaker 1: are an election night aren't going to be the final 218 00:13:35,196 --> 00:13:38,076 Speaker 1: results because the states that vote by mail just take 219 00:13:38,156 --> 00:13:41,476 Speaker 1: longer to count the ballots. States need to change their 220 00:13:41,636 --> 00:13:45,716 Speaker 1: counting systems so that deadlines are going to shift because 221 00:13:45,716 --> 00:13:48,516 Speaker 1: it takes longer to count paper ballots, and we have 222 00:13:48,596 --> 00:13:52,676 Speaker 1: to have a real public education campaign to teach people 223 00:13:52,876 --> 00:13:55,036 Speaker 1: how they can do it now it's different from what 224 00:13:55,076 --> 00:13:58,036 Speaker 1: they're used to. All of these things can be done. 225 00:13:58,076 --> 00:14:01,276 Speaker 1: They've all been done somewhere. That's why it's a solvable 226 00:14:01,676 --> 00:14:04,716 Speaker 1: This is a solvable problem. We can have an election 227 00:14:04,756 --> 00:14:09,276 Speaker 1: that is participatory with robust turnout in twenty twenty. But 228 00:14:09,316 --> 00:14:12,356 Speaker 1: we've got to act. And what help do the states need? 229 00:14:12,476 --> 00:14:16,996 Speaker 1: I mean, there's been discussion of congressional funding for vote 230 00:14:17,036 --> 00:14:19,796 Speaker 1: by mail efforts and for some of these procedures that 231 00:14:19,836 --> 00:14:23,196 Speaker 1: are needed to make in person voting safer. Do they 232 00:14:23,236 --> 00:14:25,396 Speaker 1: really need a lot of money? And are we going 233 00:14:25,436 --> 00:14:28,116 Speaker 1: to have an issue with supplies the way we did 234 00:14:28,116 --> 00:14:31,916 Speaker 1: early in the crisis around PPP and masks. You know, 235 00:14:32,316 --> 00:14:35,956 Speaker 1: is there enough watermarked paper for all these mail ballots 236 00:14:36,036 --> 00:14:38,476 Speaker 1: or you know the technology around vote by mail? Do 237 00:14:38,556 --> 00:14:41,836 Speaker 1: we have the supplies and equipment? The main thing they 238 00:14:41,876 --> 00:14:45,076 Speaker 1: need is money. They need help from the federal government. 239 00:14:45,556 --> 00:14:50,836 Speaker 1: Only the federal government can spend right now, states many 240 00:14:50,876 --> 00:14:54,276 Speaker 1: of them have balanced budget requirements, and so that's why 241 00:14:54,276 --> 00:14:56,916 Speaker 1: these stimulus bills and the ability of the federal government 242 00:14:56,996 --> 00:15:00,996 Speaker 1: to spend and provide resources is so important. The Brennan 243 00:15:01,036 --> 00:15:04,876 Speaker 1: Center has calculated that what will need to happen will 244 00:15:04,916 --> 00:15:09,596 Speaker 1: cost up to four billion dollars in twenty twenty, and 245 00:15:09,916 --> 00:15:15,876 Speaker 1: Congress past in appropriation for the first four hundred million dollars. 246 00:15:16,436 --> 00:15:19,316 Speaker 1: Congress has to act, and if Congress doesn't act, it 247 00:15:19,396 --> 00:15:22,196 Speaker 1: is going to be very hard for states to do 248 00:15:22,276 --> 00:15:24,956 Speaker 1: what they want to and need to do. Time is 249 00:15:25,076 --> 00:15:28,316 Speaker 1: really really of the essence. There are deadlines, there are 250 00:15:28,356 --> 00:15:33,436 Speaker 1: supply chain issues. Election officials can't just walk into a 251 00:15:33,556 --> 00:15:36,796 Speaker 1: Staples in October and buy a bunch of scanners to 252 00:15:37,276 --> 00:15:39,436 Speaker 1: look at the voting machines. They have to order them now. 253 00:15:40,476 --> 00:15:44,716 Speaker 1: And there are really tight deadlines. So one of the 254 00:15:44,836 --> 00:15:47,196 Speaker 1: terrible things would be if we woke up in a 255 00:15:47,196 --> 00:15:49,596 Speaker 1: few months and realized that we needed to do this 256 00:15:49,676 --> 00:15:52,836 Speaker 1: but that the window to do it had closed. How 257 00:15:52,876 --> 00:15:56,476 Speaker 1: worried should we be about the post Office? The post 258 00:15:56,516 --> 00:15:59,196 Speaker 1: Office is going to run out of funding if something 259 00:15:59,276 --> 00:16:03,276 Speaker 1: isn't done and September and the President again is sort 260 00:16:03,316 --> 00:16:05,956 Speaker 1: of seems to see the post Office as part of, 261 00:16:05,996 --> 00:16:08,036 Speaker 1: you know, this thing that's going to enable people to 262 00:16:08,156 --> 00:16:11,356 Speaker 1: vote more than he wants them to, you know. And 263 00:16:11,436 --> 00:16:14,436 Speaker 1: I was also amazed to learn reading about this that 264 00:16:14,556 --> 00:16:18,516 Speaker 1: mail in ballots don't come post paid. That is, you 265 00:16:18,556 --> 00:16:20,876 Speaker 1: need a stamp. And you know, I don't know your 266 00:16:20,956 --> 00:16:22,916 Speaker 1: children are a little older than mine, but you know, 267 00:16:23,196 --> 00:16:25,636 Speaker 1: people who are voting for the first time are often 268 00:16:25,716 --> 00:16:29,716 Speaker 1: not familiar with the technology of mail and stamps as 269 00:16:29,756 --> 00:16:32,476 Speaker 1: things you need to have to mail letters. Yeah, I mean, 270 00:16:32,676 --> 00:16:35,076 Speaker 1: the post office is running out of money. We think 271 00:16:35,116 --> 00:16:39,236 Speaker 1: it's important that postage be prepaid. Also, a lot of 272 00:16:39,276 --> 00:16:41,396 Speaker 1: people are kind of nervous about sticking a ballot in 273 00:16:41,716 --> 00:16:44,316 Speaker 1: a mailbox you know, is going to really go where 274 00:16:44,316 --> 00:16:46,556 Speaker 1: I want it to go. So a lot of places 275 00:16:46,556 --> 00:16:50,196 Speaker 1: that do vote by mail, people get the ballots at home, 276 00:16:50,556 --> 00:16:53,036 Speaker 1: but they can drop them off at their convenience, in 277 00:16:53,076 --> 00:16:57,476 Speaker 1: a secure and guarded box, you know, at a government office. 278 00:16:57,516 --> 00:16:59,996 Speaker 1: And that is actually how a lot of people vote. 279 00:17:00,036 --> 00:17:03,076 Speaker 1: It's really voted home rather than vote by mail alone. 280 00:17:03,756 --> 00:17:06,076 Speaker 1: By how will we know whether we've solved this problem? 281 00:17:06,116 --> 00:17:09,676 Speaker 1: One measure will simply be whether people feel safe and 282 00:17:09,756 --> 00:17:11,636 Speaker 1: secure and that they've been able to vote and their 283 00:17:11,716 --> 00:17:14,516 Speaker 1: votes have been counted. You know, Should we be judging 284 00:17:14,516 --> 00:17:17,076 Speaker 1: it by turnout? I mean, we've had this big oscillation 285 00:17:17,116 --> 00:17:20,796 Speaker 1: and turnout in American elections is there a turnout level 286 00:17:20,956 --> 00:17:23,836 Speaker 1: that will say to us, we've succeeded in twenty twenty. 287 00:17:24,356 --> 00:17:27,796 Speaker 1: In twenty fourteen, we had the lowest voter turnout in 288 00:17:27,876 --> 00:17:31,316 Speaker 1: seventy two years. It was for a mid term, but 289 00:17:31,396 --> 00:17:34,396 Speaker 1: that's how you do the comparison. That was like a 290 00:17:34,436 --> 00:17:38,916 Speaker 1: real sign of a withdrawal of public trust, of disaffection. 291 00:17:39,276 --> 00:17:43,196 Speaker 1: But in twenty eighteen, we had the highest voter turnout 292 00:17:43,236 --> 00:17:47,036 Speaker 1: in a century. People were reacting to Trump, people were 293 00:17:47,116 --> 00:17:51,876 Speaker 1: voting supporting Trump. They were certainly kindled in their activism 294 00:17:51,996 --> 00:17:55,276 Speaker 1: and a real surge and youth voting and other things 295 00:17:55,396 --> 00:17:59,196 Speaker 1: to repudiate and protest Trump. So this was gonna be 296 00:17:59,236 --> 00:18:02,516 Speaker 1: We were all preparing for the highest turnout record high 297 00:18:02,516 --> 00:18:06,196 Speaker 1: turnout in twenty twenty. If there's a collapse in turnout, 298 00:18:06,636 --> 00:18:09,556 Speaker 1: that is not going to be because people just don't 299 00:18:09,556 --> 00:18:13,636 Speaker 1: care whether Trump gets reelected. We'll also know if people 300 00:18:13,636 --> 00:18:17,116 Speaker 1: are having to stand in line in very unsafe situations. 301 00:18:18,036 --> 00:18:21,356 Speaker 1: You know, this election is already so much distrust and 302 00:18:21,476 --> 00:18:25,636 Speaker 1: so much anger and so much misinformation. We can't allow 303 00:18:25,676 --> 00:18:29,116 Speaker 1: anything to happen that's going to just make people distrusted 304 00:18:29,196 --> 00:18:32,636 Speaker 1: even more. Think now about the scenes from the Michigan 305 00:18:32,676 --> 00:18:39,076 Speaker 1: State House militia members carrying AR fifteens have invaded the 306 00:18:39,116 --> 00:18:41,716 Speaker 1: state House and actually stop the state legislature from doing 307 00:18:41,716 --> 00:18:45,236 Speaker 1: its work. It's the most shocking thing you can imagine. 308 00:18:45,476 --> 00:18:48,396 Speaker 1: It's shocking, and we're going to have a risk of 309 00:18:48,476 --> 00:18:51,156 Speaker 1: seeing too much of that kind of thing if people 310 00:18:51,196 --> 00:18:53,756 Speaker 1: don't trust how the elections are being run and if 311 00:18:53,796 --> 00:18:57,556 Speaker 1: they unfold in chaos in November. I'm very worried about 312 00:18:57,556 --> 00:18:59,796 Speaker 1: this kind of thing, Mike. To wrap up, I wanted 313 00:18:59,836 --> 00:19:02,476 Speaker 1: to ask you a little bit about what listeners can do, 314 00:19:02,596 --> 00:19:06,396 Speaker 1: and in particular, if you are really concerned about the 315 00:19:06,436 --> 00:19:08,956 Speaker 1: safety and security of the election in twenty twenty, should 316 00:19:08,956 --> 00:19:12,916 Speaker 1: you focusing your efforts locally or nationally. First of all, 317 00:19:13,036 --> 00:19:16,516 Speaker 1: speak out, let your members of Congress know that they 318 00:19:16,556 --> 00:19:22,076 Speaker 1: should put aside the partisanship and support the resources for 319 00:19:22,236 --> 00:19:24,116 Speaker 1: states to be able to do this, and let people 320 00:19:24,156 --> 00:19:27,876 Speaker 1: in state capitals know the same thing this year too. 321 00:19:27,916 --> 00:19:31,876 Speaker 1: There's individual steps that people can take. Find out and 322 00:19:31,956 --> 00:19:35,556 Speaker 1: make sure you are registered. Most states have the ability 323 00:19:35,596 --> 00:19:39,036 Speaker 1: to do that through a website online. You want to 324 00:19:39,076 --> 00:19:42,116 Speaker 1: make sure that you're not purged from the voter rolls 325 00:19:42,276 --> 00:19:45,756 Speaker 1: or that something hasn't happened so that it's all going 326 00:19:45,796 --> 00:19:47,556 Speaker 1: to be very different now, and you want to make 327 00:19:47,596 --> 00:19:51,756 Speaker 1: sure you're registered. Find out also what the deadlines are 328 00:19:52,316 --> 00:19:56,476 Speaker 1: forgetting an absentee ballot or a mail ballot, if that's 329 00:19:56,516 --> 00:19:59,036 Speaker 1: what you want to do. It's not going to just 330 00:19:59,076 --> 00:20:01,956 Speaker 1: show up most of the time in your mailbox and 331 00:20:02,036 --> 00:20:03,996 Speaker 1: you fill it out. You've got to ask for it. 332 00:20:04,316 --> 00:20:06,956 Speaker 1: We can help our parents do that if they need 333 00:20:06,996 --> 00:20:11,636 Speaker 1: the technological help, but we all have a big responsibility. Yeah, 334 00:20:11,756 --> 00:20:14,756 Speaker 1: but is there a legitimate other side to this issue? 335 00:20:14,836 --> 00:20:17,116 Speaker 1: I mean, when I hear you talking, this stuff seems 336 00:20:17,156 --> 00:20:20,236 Speaker 1: so obvious. We should make it possible for people to vote. 337 00:20:20,236 --> 00:20:22,156 Speaker 1: We should make it easier for people to vote, should 338 00:20:22,476 --> 00:20:24,796 Speaker 1: be safe for people to vote. More people should vote. 339 00:20:25,916 --> 00:20:28,716 Speaker 1: Is there an argument other than the purely partisan one 340 00:20:29,356 --> 00:20:33,236 Speaker 1: that more voting may advantage one party versus the other, 341 00:20:33,796 --> 00:20:37,116 Speaker 1: against the kinds of things that Brennan Center advocates in 342 00:20:37,236 --> 00:20:43,836 Speaker 1: terms of expanding voting rights. You know, the notion that 343 00:20:43,956 --> 00:20:47,196 Speaker 1: everybody who's eligible should be able to vote is in 344 00:20:47,236 --> 00:20:50,476 Speaker 1: many ways at the heart of our civic religion. It's 345 00:20:50,596 --> 00:20:55,836 Speaker 1: it's it's a core patriotic, widely shared view. You hear 346 00:20:55,956 --> 00:21:00,116 Speaker 1: arguments that voting is a privilege, not a right, but 347 00:21:00,156 --> 00:21:03,236 Speaker 1: the right to vote is actually in the Constitution, mentioned 348 00:21:03,316 --> 00:21:07,596 Speaker 1: five times in the amendments. It's something we all really 349 00:21:07,796 --> 00:21:11,236 Speaker 1: believe in. It As America, you also hear people say 350 00:21:11,516 --> 00:21:15,876 Speaker 1: that they're worried about election integrity and voter fraud, and 351 00:21:15,916 --> 00:21:20,076 Speaker 1: it's really important that we have elections that are reliable 352 00:21:20,116 --> 00:21:23,076 Speaker 1: and that we have election integrity, and that means, among 353 00:21:23,116 --> 00:21:28,156 Speaker 1: other things, focusing on the real threats such as cybersecurity. 354 00:21:28,196 --> 00:21:32,356 Speaker 1: And we know that Russia in twenty sixteen try to 355 00:21:32,396 --> 00:21:35,436 Speaker 1: get into the election systems in all fifty states, and 356 00:21:35,556 --> 00:21:39,436 Speaker 1: this time there's every reason to worry that Russia or 357 00:21:39,436 --> 00:21:43,196 Speaker 1: other countries or other malevolent actors will be doing the 358 00:21:43,276 --> 00:21:46,516 Speaker 1: same thing. So it's not that there aren't risks of 359 00:21:46,756 --> 00:21:51,516 Speaker 1: misconduct in fraud. It is not the case that millions 360 00:21:51,556 --> 00:21:55,996 Speaker 1: of illegal voters are magically and mysteriously voting. And when 361 00:21:56,036 --> 00:22:01,356 Speaker 1: you look at all the research, voter fraud is vanishingly rare. 362 00:22:02,356 --> 00:22:05,876 Speaker 1: You're more likely to be struck by lightning than commit 363 00:22:06,276 --> 00:22:09,876 Speaker 1: in person voter impersonation. In the United States, that worry 364 00:22:10,076 --> 00:22:14,676 Speaker 1: is addressable and is overwhelmed by the need to make 365 00:22:14,676 --> 00:22:18,596 Speaker 1: sure that everybody who's eligible to vote can vote. To me, 366 00:22:18,676 --> 00:22:21,996 Speaker 1: that's the only legitimate way to run an election. Mike, 367 00:22:22,156 --> 00:22:24,796 Speaker 1: is great to see you via zoom, and I want 368 00:22:24,796 --> 00:22:29,836 Speaker 1: to thank you for joining us Unsolvable. Thank you. That 369 00:22:30,036 --> 00:22:33,116 Speaker 1: was Michael Waldman, President of the Brennan Center for Justice. 370 00:22:33,596 --> 00:22:36,036 Speaker 1: Remember to check out our show notes for links to 371 00:22:36,076 --> 00:22:38,596 Speaker 1: the suggestions our guests make for ways that you can 372 00:22:38,636 --> 00:22:42,636 Speaker 1: get involved. Next week, we'll continue our election series with 373 00:22:42,716 --> 00:22:46,916 Speaker 1: a conversation with Kristen Clark, President and Executive director of 374 00:22:46,956 --> 00:22:50,676 Speaker 1: the National Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights under Law. She 375 00:22:50,876 --> 00:22:54,596 Speaker 1: believes that the problem of voter suppression is solvable. Please 376 00:22:54,676 --> 00:22:57,956 Speaker 1: join us. Solvable is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. 377 00:22:58,196 --> 00:23:02,756 Speaker 1: Our show is produced by Camille Baptista, Senior producer Jocelyn Frank. 378 00:23:03,156 --> 00:23:06,876 Speaker 1: Catherine Girardou is our managing producer, and our executive producer 379 00:23:06,956 --> 00:23:10,796 Speaker 1: is Mia Lobell. Special thanks to Heather Faine, Eric Sandler, 380 00:23:10,916 --> 00:23:14,716 Speaker 1: Carle Magliore and Kidija Holland. I'm Jacob Weisberg.