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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. Today is Saturday,

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Speaker 1: so we have a vault episode for you. It's going

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Speaker 1: to be It Looks in the Mineshaft Part 2. It

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Speaker 1: originally published 10-9-2025. Yes, more folkloric and legendary monsters tied

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Speaker 1: to mineshafts and mining. Let's do it. Welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio. Hey, welcome

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Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Joe McCormick. And we're back with part two

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Speaker 2: of our Halloween season series called It Lurks in the Mindshaft,

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Speaker 2: about creatures and spirits said to haunt the minds. In

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Speaker 2: part one, we talked about redcaps, bluecaps, and the Cornish

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Speaker 2: mining spirit known as the knocker or Tommy knocker, which

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Speaker 2: was originally the subject of labor lore in southwest England,

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Speaker 2: but was later imported through immigrant oral tradition to the

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Speaker 2: mines of the western United States. And we're back today

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Speaker 2: to talk about more. So, Rob, in the last episode,

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Speaker 2: we talked a bit about the creature from German folklore

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Speaker 2: and known as the kobold. Would you mind if we

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Speaker 2: do a little bit more on this one? Because I

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Speaker 2: found an interesting theological history connection.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this will be fun to get into. The kobold,

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Speaker 1: of course, is also well known to Dungeons & Dragons

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Speaker 1: players as the low-level dragonkin creature that is generally encountered

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Speaker 1: at low levels and in beginner campaigns, but has apparently

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Speaker 1: become increasingly popular as a character choice for players. Apparently,

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Speaker 1: there's a whole... very popular meme among younger D &

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Speaker 1: D folks where you would have three kobolds in a

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Speaker 1: trench coat pretending to be a person. And like people make,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's all sorts of fan art of this.

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Speaker 1: You can find 3D printed miniatures and so forth.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you said a low-level dragon form. This is

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Speaker 2: a draconic reptilian type creature, but also humanoid, kind of

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Speaker 2: a long snout with scales and a tail.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah, basically goblinoid creatures with dragon features, draconic features, yeah.

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Speaker 1: So not a lot to do with what we're going

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Speaker 1: to get into here, except that they typically live underground.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, underground small stature would have in common with the

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Speaker 2: real folklore. But the creature from actual historical folklore doesn't

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Speaker 2: have any reptilian features that I read about. That seems

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Speaker 2: to be a pure D & D invention. So this

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Speaker 2: originally came up in the context of talking about the Tommyknockers,

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Speaker 2: because there is a lot of overlap between these two creatures.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to Go more lightly on the things

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Speaker 2: that are essentially the same between them. The kobold seems

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Speaker 2: to have been well known in German sources of the

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Speaker 2: 16th and 17th centuries and is usually described as a

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Speaker 2: type of goblin or fairy-like creature looking like a little

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Speaker 2: old man. I believe Georgius Agricola, who we mentioned last time,

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Speaker 2: says that they are about 27 inches tall. Other times

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Speaker 2: they're said to be two feet tall, somewhere in that range.

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Speaker 2: They are sometimes described as wearing a conical hat and

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Speaker 2: pointy shoes, or they can be dressed like a human

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Speaker 2: miner in mining clothes and mining gear. Sometimes friendly, but

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Speaker 2: often malicious and deceitful. The moral alignment of the kobold,

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Speaker 2: from what I was reading, seems to have the same

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Speaker 2: range as the Tommyknocker, but with a little more emphasis

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Speaker 2: on the meaner side of the scale.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: The kobold is most notably associated with mines, but it's

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Speaker 2: not limited only to mines. It can also inhabit households

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Speaker 2: on the surface. So it can be a household trickster,

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Speaker 2: like many of these other spirits we've talked about. In

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Speaker 2: either place, it would often play tricks, even nasty tricks

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Speaker 2: on people. So in your house, it might throw sawdust

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Speaker 2: all over the floor or kick ashes around out of

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Speaker 2: the fireplace or drop sand in your milk.

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Speaker 1: In the mine.

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Speaker 2: It could lead you astray, making you think you had

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Speaker 2: discovered a great vein of silver only for you to

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Speaker 2: waste many hours working on it and later realize you

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Speaker 2: had been fooled. The element cobalt actually gets its name

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Speaker 2: from the impish form of the cobalt because early modern

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Speaker 2: miners believed the presence of cobalt ore near a vein

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Speaker 2: of silver was problematic in some way. It made the

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Speaker 2: silver harder to get out or it damaged the purity

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Speaker 2: of the silver in some way. So cobalt was a

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Speaker 2: demonic or mischievous mineral. One interesting thing about the cobalt

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Speaker 2: is that I found references to a passage where Martin Luther,

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Speaker 2: the father of the Protestant Reformation, talks about the cobalt

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Speaker 2: as a type of devil or minion of Satan. I

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Speaker 2: came across this reference in a book called Early Modern Supernatural,

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Speaker 2: The Dark Side of European Culture, 1400-1700, This is a

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Speaker 2: book from 2012 by an author named Jane P. Davidson,

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Speaker 2: who is a professor of art history at University of Nevada, Reno.

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Speaker 2: Davidson is in the middle of writing about the blurring

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Speaker 2: between categories of supernatural beings. And interesting that that's something

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Speaker 2: that came up in part one of this series, that

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Speaker 2: sometimes you have these creatures where it's not quite clear.

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Speaker 2: Are they considered a fairy type creature, something other than

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Speaker 2: human or a ghost of a dead human? Sometimes there

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Speaker 2: is a crossing of boundaries between these categories. A creature

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Speaker 2: can be considered one or the other or maybe both

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Speaker 2: at the same time. In the case of the kobold,

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Speaker 2: some early modern authors treated them as a type of

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Speaker 2: fairy or gnome. Others treated them as ghosts having qualities

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Speaker 2: similar to a poltergeist, a noisy ghost moving things around

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Speaker 2: and making a ruckus. But also they were sometimes considered

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Speaker 2: to have the qualities of a demon or an imp.

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Speaker 2: And some authors embraced a fully Christian theological framing and

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Speaker 2: simply said they were devils of Satan. So Martin Luther

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Speaker 2: is an example of the latter. In a passage from

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Speaker 2: his table talk, he says in translation, of course, quote,

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Speaker 2: The devil vexes and harasses the workmen in the mines.

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Speaker 2: He makes them think they have found new veins of silver,

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Speaker 2: which when they have labored and labored, turn out to

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Speaker 2: be more illusions. Even in open day on the surface

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Speaker 2: of the earth, he causes people to think they see

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Speaker 2: a treasure before them, which vanishes when they would pick

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Speaker 2: it up. I have never had any success in the mines,

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Speaker 2: but such was God's will, and I am content. And

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Speaker 2: I thought this was interesting because it recasts the mining

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Speaker 2: imp as one associated not so much with the mind

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Speaker 2: as a place, but with the mental space of searching

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Speaker 2: for treasure. You know, he says, even in open day

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Speaker 2: on the surface of the earth, if your mind is

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Speaker 2: in prospector mode, if you are looking for treasures and riches,

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Speaker 2: searching for little signs of ways to profit and get rich,

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Speaker 2: this devil will find you and take advantage of your

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Speaker 2: greed or your hope. So this made me think, is

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Speaker 2: it worth thinking about the difference between devils with a

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Speaker 2: theological framing and goblins or fairy folk with a more

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Speaker 2: secular folklore framing? The latter seems to me to be

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Speaker 2: more part of the geography or the environment, sort of

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Speaker 2: a part of the natural world, but a magical part

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Speaker 2: of the natural world. Whereas the former, the devil, is

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Speaker 2: part of a very human-focused cosmology. It's hard to think

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Speaker 2: of a devil as something leading a life of its own,

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Speaker 2: living a parallel existence in a hidden world where you

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Speaker 2: might get in trouble for spying on it, going about

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Speaker 2: its business. You know, like these stories, we have the

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Speaker 2: knockers where people are peeking in on the knockers working

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Speaker 2: and they get caught and that's no good for them.

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Speaker 2: It's not really going to happen with the devil because.

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Speaker 2: Devils have no business. They're not going about their own business.

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Speaker 2: Their business is exclusively the tempting and tormenting of human souls.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, to use a very late example, you can look

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Speaker 1: at C.S. Lewis's The Screwtape Letters, in which, yeah, the

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Speaker 1: demons are expressly concerned with us. They have no other business. Like,

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Speaker 1: this is their entire life. This is their identity.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if I've ever thought about it in

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Speaker 2: quite these terms before, but this strikes me as a

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Speaker 2: potent distinction between different types of creatures or imps a

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Speaker 2: person could believe they were crossing paths with. You have

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Speaker 2: this more fairy folk tradition where these creatures are just

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Speaker 2: part of the world and you might by chance cross

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Speaker 2: paths with them. And, you know, things, lots of things

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Speaker 2: could happen from that accidental meeting, but the meeting is

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Speaker 2: an accident. The meeting with the devil is never an accident.

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Speaker 2: The devil is looking for you, you know, and if

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Speaker 2: you meet it, it is because you have done something

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Speaker 2: wrong and you have allowed it the opportunity to get you,

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Speaker 2: which is something it's always trying to do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is fascinating to think about because obviously if

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Speaker 1: you experience a hallucination or see something in the natural

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Speaker 1: world that you don't have context for, you could go

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Speaker 1: with either explanation. but then you can also think about

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Speaker 1: like the, the purpose, these different supernatural motifs serve. And

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Speaker 1: in the unique environment of a mine, uh, like a

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Speaker 1: deep rock mine, you have both the interaction with the

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Speaker 1: natural world. And therefore you can see yourself leaning more

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Speaker 1: towards these embodiments of nature. Um, nature spirits, nature guardians,

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Speaker 1: nature deities. But then you are also in a highly

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Speaker 1: social environment, you know, working with people, trusting people, having

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Speaker 1: weird feelings about how your foreman is treating you and

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Speaker 1: so forth. And all of that seems like maybe a

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Speaker 1: little richer area for the devils to do their work.

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Speaker 1: And I guess the other thing to stress, you know,

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Speaker 1: talking about how different people have characterized these things, I

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Speaker 1: guess this is always the problem when you have, you know,

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Speaker 1: at some later point, an academic or a bestiary writer

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Speaker 1: wants to categorize everything, something that existed in an oral

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Speaker 1: tradition and may, you know, differ from mind to mind,

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Speaker 1: from storyteller to storyteller, and even, you know, situation to situation.

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Speaker 2: I think you can get a lot of things exactly

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Speaker 2: like that, where something is much more in the fairy

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Speaker 2: folk mold in how it is discussed among the people.

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Speaker 2: That's its oral tradition mode of being. And then when

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Speaker 2: it's time for someone to come along and catalog that

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Speaker 2: belief in a book, it gets very much recategorized in

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Speaker 2: the theological framing. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And we want to know, what is its challenge rating?

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Speaker 1: Is it a fairy or is it a devil? You

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Speaker 1: have to tell me. Fae or infernal? Fae or fiend?

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Speaker 1: Which is it?

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Speaker 2: Well, I've got another little alley to go down if

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Speaker 2: you want to play some more Fey or Fiend games.

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Speaker 2: Would you like to look at some creatures of Scandinavian

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Speaker 2: mining folklore?

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Speaker 1: Let's do it. Okay.

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Speaker 2: So for this, I turned to a book called Scandinavian

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Speaker 2: Folk Belief and Legend by a couple of scholars named

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Speaker 2: Raymond Kvitaland and Henning K.

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Speaker 1: Simsdorf.

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Speaker 2: This book is from the University of Minnesota Press, 1988.

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Speaker 2: And the authors note that while mining legends are prolific

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Speaker 2: throughout continental Europe, they're actually a little bit less common,

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Speaker 2: though still present, in Scandinavia. So they were able to

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Speaker 2: collect five different varieties of mining legend here based on

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Speaker 2: accounts from different times and places, from Sweden and Norway.

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Speaker 2: It seems mostly collected in the first half of the

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Speaker 2: 20th century. So in contrast to the most common subterranean

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Speaker 2: mining spirit found elsewhere in Europe, which as we discussed

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Speaker 2: last time, was usually this elf-like being shaped like a

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Speaker 2: tiny old man, the creature that haunts a mine in

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Speaker 2: Norway or Sweden is most often described as a solitary

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Speaker 2: female being, often a fine lady. There are a few

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Speaker 2: examples here that go by different names.

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Speaker 1: You have the.

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Speaker 2: Groovra, the ruler of the mine. The Groovefroken, the Lady

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Speaker 2: of the Mine, or the Solvmora, the Silver Mother. Almost

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Speaker 2: exactly like the Tommyknocker and other spirits we've discussed, the

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Speaker 2: Spectral Lady of the Mine has a dual nature. In

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Speaker 2: some tellings, she is benign and even helpful, leading the

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Speaker 2: miner to loads of ore or protecting him from danger.

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Speaker 2: But in other situations, she is a jealous guardian of

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Speaker 2: the riches of the earth, and she can cause disaster

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Speaker 2: and strike the greedy miner dead. In addition to the

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Speaker 2: Lady of the Mine and the Silver Mother, there are

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Speaker 2: also stories in Scandinavian legend that depict mythological beings as

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Speaker 2: miners themselves. For example, mythical dwarves are often depicted as

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Speaker 2: industrious miners and smiths. And they could carry dangerous and

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Speaker 2: powerful magic of their own. So the authors include a

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Speaker 2: few specific tales. First, I'll mention a couple having to

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Speaker 2: do with a lone female mining spirit like the silver mother.

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Speaker 2: One story from middle Sweden involves silver miners in a

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Speaker 2: place called Halifors Forest. The story goes, when the mine

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Speaker 2: first opened up, the miners worked for a while without

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Speaker 2: finding much. But then one day they heard the voice

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Speaker 2: of a lady calling out to them. It was a

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Speaker 2: woman's voice. And she said, keep to the left. Otherwise

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Speaker 2: you disturb the foot of my bed. These miners were,

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Speaker 2: you know, they paid heed to the voice. They followed

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Speaker 2: her instructions, keeping to the left of the pit. And

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Speaker 2: what do you know? They struck silver. So turned out

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Speaker 2: well for them. Who knows what would have happened if

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Speaker 2: they had done otherwise? Maybe they would have angered the

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Speaker 2: silver mother. Another story collected from near the same place

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Speaker 2: in the Swedish province of Vastmanland. This one was called

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Speaker 2: The Lady of the Mine Warned Them. It goes like this, quote,

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Speaker 2: In Clack Mountain, there was a mining pit called Sunshine Mountain.

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Speaker 2: My father heard from my grandfather, who worked there in

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Speaker 2: his time, that one day the miners had emerged from

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Speaker 2: the mine and were eating their noon meal in a shack. Suddenly,

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Speaker 2: a fine lady appeared and said, Go down into the shaft,

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Speaker 2: pick up your gear and go home. The older men

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Speaker 2: did as she told them, but the younger fellows just

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Speaker 2: laughed and stayed. The mine collapsed and they were all

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Speaker 2: buried under the rocks. It was the lady of the

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Speaker 2: mine who had warned them. Whenever she showed herself, a

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Speaker 2: miner would lose his life. Interesting detail here. The old

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Speaker 2: men listen and are saved. The young men ignore her

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Speaker 2: and die. Are the old men simply more cautious, or

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Speaker 2: is it that the old men have respect for the

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Speaker 2: legend and thus are saved?

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Speaker 1: I think it's probably both. I mean, the youth of today,

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Speaker 1: they just don't listen to the silver mother like the

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Speaker 1: old codgers know how to do.

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Speaker 2: What did the young men think the silver mother was?

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Speaker 2: Was she just like, oh, that's just a crazy random

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Speaker 2: lady coming out of the mine?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe, you know, what it probably is,

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Speaker 1: you know, getting back to some of what we were

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Speaker 1: discussing in the last episode and discussing in this one,

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Speaker 1: it probably comes back to that gut understanding of the mine.

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Speaker 1: It sounds. In some cases, it smells. You know, being

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Speaker 1: able to sort of feel the mine. And the young people,

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Speaker 1: they just don't have the experience and or they're more brash.

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Speaker 1: Whereas the old men, they've been down there in the

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Speaker 1: mine long enough. I mean, they didn't become old miners

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Speaker 1: by not listening to the mine.

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Speaker 2: As George Orwell reports, they can feel the weight upon them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so we have the Silver Mother leading you to

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Speaker 2: Orr and the Silver Mother warning you of danger. And

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Speaker 2: then finally, they also include a short remembrance from a

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Speaker 2: place called the Nasa Mine near the border between Norway

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Speaker 2: and Sweden. And that goes like this. Nils Olsen from

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Speaker 2: northern Rana tells how his father once went over to

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Speaker 2: look at the mines of NASA. As it turned out,

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Speaker 2: he stayed away for quite a long time. And when

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Speaker 2: he finally returned, the people were just getting ready to

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Speaker 2: come after him. They had feared that the Silver Mother

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Speaker 2: in NASA had taken him. So here the Silver Mother

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Speaker 2: herself seems to be the threat, a malicious figure who

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Speaker 2: In fact, in the story does not harm anyone, but

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Speaker 2: the people assumed could seize you on a solitary survey

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Speaker 2: and make you disappear forever. But fortunately, the father in

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Speaker 2: the story was spare. OK, now a couple more Scandinavian

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Speaker 2: tales in the other tradition, not the lady of the

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Speaker 2: mines or the silver mother. but the spirits and beings

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Speaker 2: who are miners themselves, or at least make some claim

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Speaker 2: over the ore in the mine. One of them is

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Speaker 2: a story collected from Norway concerning a place called Klet Mountain,

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Speaker 2: a mountain with silver hidden inside it. The main character

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Speaker 2: of the story is a ferryman who works a boat

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Speaker 2: taking people across a nearby sound. One day, two men

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Speaker 2: come over and hire him to take them across the sound, Hmm.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if the implication is that they were

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Speaker 2: actually dwarves, but there was some kind of spectral miner here.

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Speaker 2: You know, they knew where to get the ore and

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Speaker 2: they gave him the secret and then they're gone.

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Speaker 1: And here, well outside of the mine, too. Yeah. That's interesting.

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Speaker 1: That's like if you were to encounter spectral dwarves on

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Speaker 1: Wall Street. Yeah. Trading in like silver stocks or something.

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Speaker 1: And they're like, where did they go? Oh, they were dwarves.

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Speaker 2: The taxi driver.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Drops them off and they disappear. Yeah. And then finally,

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Speaker 2: here's one last story also collected from Vastmanland in Sweden

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Speaker 2: in 1902. I'm just going to read this one directly.

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Speaker 2: This one is called He Lost His Eyesight. Quote, According

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Speaker 2: to legend, the copper deposits at Lundsnarberg were discovered at

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Speaker 2: the beginning of the 17th century by a man named

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Speaker 2: Martin Finn. One day he went fishing and slept by

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Speaker 2: his fire. He was awakened by the sound of hammering

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Speaker 2: and pounding in the mountain. A rough voice shouted, The

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Speaker 2: first who our treasure espies will lose both eyes. When

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Speaker 2: he pushed aside the coals to quench the fire, the

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Speaker 2: rock was laid bare, and there glistened the red ore.

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Speaker 2: That's the copper. But as soon as the exploitation of

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Speaker 2: the find began, Martin Finn went blind. So that story

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Speaker 2: is interesting because there's some ambiguity, at least to me,

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Speaker 2: in the way it's being told. I think, though I

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Speaker 2: am not sure... That this should be interpreted as another

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Speaker 2: example of supernatural minors or at least supernatural claimants to

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Speaker 2: the discovery of the ore there. but it could also

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Speaker 2: be like supernatural guardians or protectors of the mine more

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Speaker 2: like the silver mother i guess it depends on how

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Speaker 2: you interpret the sound of the hammering and pounding that

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Speaker 2: woke martin up like was that the sound of the

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Speaker 2: beings that cursed him pounding the rock trying to reach

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Speaker 2: the ore first In other words, is the speaker of

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Speaker 2: the curse a competing spectral miner or was that hammering

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Speaker 2: the sound of like human mine workers or explorers who

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Speaker 2: were there at the same time as Martin? If it's

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Speaker 2: the latter, I think you could interpret this more like

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Speaker 2: the malevolent version of the silver mother. Like I am

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Speaker 2: the spiritual owner or guardian of this mine and I

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Speaker 2: will curse and punish the first person who finds the

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Speaker 2: ore I've hidden there. But it reads to me more

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Speaker 2: like these are You know, the dwarves or whatever other

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Speaker 2: spectral beings, they want the ore. They want to get

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Speaker 2: there first. You know, I saw it first. And if

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Speaker 2: you lay your eyes on it, I will punish you.

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Speaker 1: Supernatural competition. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So I was trying to think, are there any consistent

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Speaker 2: moral themes in this Scandinavian mining lore? Like we saw

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Speaker 2: in the early Cornish legends of the Tommyknockers. Because remember,

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Speaker 2: in the Cornish examples... There were moral punishments, and what

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Speaker 2: was punished was disrespect of the knockers themselves, excessive curiosity,

351
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Speaker 2: like spying on the spirits, or excessive greed and ambition,

352
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Speaker 2: trying to take more than your fair share or trying

353
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Speaker 2: to swindle the spirits. By contrast, I tried to actually

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Speaker 2: separate out what is being punished in the three Scandinavian

355
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Speaker 2: examples here that feature punishment or feature the threat of punishment.

356
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Speaker 2: In one, it seems to be simply looking at the mines,

357
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Speaker 2: like trespassing or possibly spying. That could be a curiosity punishment,

358
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Speaker 2: but it could also just be a jealous guardianship of

359
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Speaker 2: the mine. In another, it seems to be not listening

360
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Speaker 2: to the warning of the Silver Mother. This might actually

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Speaker 2: not be seen as a punishment, but merely a consequence.

362
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Speaker 2: And in the third, it is accidentally laying eyes on

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Speaker 2: ore that the spirits either guard or seek to extract themselves.

364
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Speaker 2: And this one, to me, doesn't feel like a moral punishment.

365
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Speaker 2: It seems just random. So I think there's really no

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Speaker 2: evidence here of punishment for greed or excessive ambition. The

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Speaker 2: magical violence feels more capricious, random and purely dangerous.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. As in keeping with a natural force. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And I was also thinking about the silver mother. Does

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Speaker 2: the fact that it is a regal, somber, solitary woman

371
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Speaker 2: change anything comparing it to the idea of a cadre

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Speaker 2: of mischievous, diminutive, old, gray-bearded men? Does that change how

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Speaker 2: the legend is received and told by the people who

374
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Speaker 2: believe in it? And I would note also that the

375
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Speaker 2: curses here are more obvious. cute than we saw in

376
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Speaker 2: the Cornish legends, because if you remember the original Cornish Tommyknockers,

377
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Speaker 2: they would curse you if you crossed them. But that

378
00:22:57,020 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 2: curse tended to be bad luck or bad luck in mining.

379
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,260
Speaker 2: If the silver mother or any of these Scandinavian beings

380
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Speaker 2: curse you, it seems more likely to mean violent death

381
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Speaker 2: or being struck blind, something really acute. Uh, and that's

382
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Speaker 2: more like the later American evolution of the Tommy knockers,

383
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Speaker 2: which tended to give omens about death and disaster.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is interesting to think about. They're more likely

385
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Speaker 1: to be like little, uh, Gromlin type creatures or, or

386
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Speaker 1: little men, uh, if they are just cursing your luck.

387
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Speaker 1: But then if we're looking at it as a, like

388
00:23:32,460 --> 00:23:37,629
Speaker 1: a death dealer or death itself, um, then what does

389
00:23:37,690 --> 00:23:40,149
Speaker 1: it mean that it is gendered and given this kind of,

390
00:23:40,150 --> 00:23:44,780
Speaker 1: you know, almost the stature of a goddess? I've been

391
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Speaker 1: thinking about that recently. You know, we see feminine versions

392
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Speaker 1: of death in various cultures and in pop culture as well.

393
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Speaker 1: And like, what does that mean? Yeah. Valkyries are a

394
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Speaker 1: great example. Like, what does that mean? You know, looking,

395
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Speaker 1: I guess, considering like the heteronormative male view of on sexuality?

396
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Speaker 1: Is it an eroticism of death or is it something

397
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,500
Speaker 1: more maternal? I mean, is it all these things, you know,

398
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Speaker 1: and then what service does it do? Does it kind

399
00:24:14,790 --> 00:24:19,270
Speaker 1: of lessen the blow or the fear of an approaching death?

400
00:24:20,609 --> 00:24:22,169
Speaker 1: You know, I want to change the subject. I want

401
00:24:22,190 --> 00:24:24,910
Speaker 1: to come back to something that I was thinking about

402
00:24:24,970 --> 00:24:28,440
Speaker 1: very early on in this, and that is that J.R.R.

403
00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 1: Tolkien's Ever the student of European myth, of course, nicely

404
00:24:31,820 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: explored and reused many of these concepts with his depictions

405
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Speaker 1: of the dwarves of Khazad-dûm, later known as Moria, who

406
00:24:40,540 --> 00:24:43,770
Speaker 1: were digging too greedily and too deep in the relentless

407
00:24:43,869 --> 00:24:47,850
Speaker 1: mining for the precious metal mithril. And, of course, you know,

408
00:24:48,510 --> 00:24:51,679
Speaker 1: unlocked their own doom and released the Balrog upon them.

409
00:24:52,270 --> 00:24:54,229
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great connection. And it seems to have

410
00:24:54,270 --> 00:24:56,670
Speaker 2: a lot in common with some of these tellings, though

411
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Speaker 2: I would note that Tolkien actually makes the legend much

412
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:05,740
Speaker 2: more epic and grim. You know, the warning of awaking

413
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,540
Speaker 2: this demon of the ancient world, something that is more

414
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:13,830
Speaker 2: dangerous than anything you've ever seen, it seems like it

415
00:25:13,869 --> 00:25:17,810
Speaker 2: goes much further beyond any of these actual old bits

416
00:25:17,869 --> 00:25:19,850
Speaker 2: of folklore, where the worst thing that's going to happen

417
00:25:19,930 --> 00:25:22,570
Speaker 2: is like, There's a being that causes a cave-in or

418
00:25:22,609 --> 00:25:24,949
Speaker 2: seizes you in the mine, and it's just sort of death.

419
00:25:25,030 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 2: I mean, it doesn't have this epic, monstrous form like

420
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:29,860
Speaker 2: the Balrog.

421
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,020
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Balrog is like a destroyer or ultimately a civilization.

422
00:25:33,260 --> 00:25:36,899
Speaker 1: It's that level of threat to the dwarves that unlock it.

423
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Speaker 1: All right. Well, it makes sense that next we're going

424
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Speaker 1: to be diving a bit into German legend here. And

425
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Speaker 1: like all these things, all these concepts have some degree

426
00:25:46,930 --> 00:25:52,659
Speaker 1: of interconnectedness and Scandinavian and Norse. mythology, has strong connections

427
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 1: going into German mythology and folklore. So I want to

428
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Speaker 1: talk about one that was new to me that I

429
00:25:59,590 --> 00:26:03,310
Speaker 1: found very exciting, and that is Der Bergmonk, which is

430
00:26:04,090 --> 00:26:07,070
Speaker 1: translated as the mountain monk or even the mind monk.

431
00:26:07,869 --> 00:26:10,850
Speaker 1: More often than not, I found this entity described as

432
00:26:10,890 --> 00:26:12,670
Speaker 1: the mind monk. Amazing.

433
00:26:12,710 --> 00:26:13,950
Speaker 2: Let's hear about this monk.

434
00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: So one of the main sources I turned to for

435
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 1: this was the work of the Brothers Grimm.

436
00:26:19,740 --> 00:26:20,380
Speaker 2: Yeah.

437
00:26:21,430 --> 00:26:23,330
Speaker 1: There are a couple of volumes that they put out

438
00:26:23,670 --> 00:26:27,570
Speaker 1: titled German Legends in 1816 and 1818. And I was

439
00:26:27,850 --> 00:26:32,860
Speaker 1: working from a 1981 translation by Donald Ward. And yeah,

440
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: so we have the mind monk here. Sometimes he's given

441
00:26:35,100 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: a proper name, Meister Hammerling or something like Master of Hammering.

442
00:26:40,220 --> 00:26:44,419
Speaker 1: You know, other times Mountain Monk, Mind Monk and so forth.

443
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,750
Speaker 1: And a Concerning the translation here, I found, I have

444
00:26:49,770 --> 00:26:52,590
Speaker 1: to stress, this is something that's not directly about the

445
00:26:52,630 --> 00:26:56,490
Speaker 1: mind monk, but it's talking about a German poem that

446
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:58,820
Speaker 1: references the mind monk and how we might translate that

447
00:26:58,859 --> 00:27:03,940
Speaker 1: into English. This is from 1922. Leonard Dalti commented on

448
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:08,420
Speaker 1: the translation of the name Meister Hammerling in the poetry

449
00:27:08,500 --> 00:27:13,379
Speaker 1: of 19th century German poet Henrik Heine. And this is

450
00:27:13,420 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: from Notes on Translating Heine from the Texas Review. Basically,

451
00:27:18,859 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: the author here notes that there are a few different

452
00:27:20,380 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: possible meanings tied up in the name. So first of all,

453
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,310
Speaker 1: Hammerling is on its own like a hateful gnome or

454
00:27:28,369 --> 00:27:31,550
Speaker 1: kobold who hammers underground. We've been talking about this throughout

455
00:27:31,590 --> 00:27:35,129
Speaker 1: these episodes. And is therefore like a trickster, a devil,

456
00:27:35,250 --> 00:27:40,540
Speaker 1: or even a clown. You know, there's a wide spectrum

457
00:27:41,190 --> 00:27:47,180
Speaker 1: by which this entity might manifest. The hammer, also in German,

458
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,239
Speaker 1: takes on the connotation of bully. Apparently that's something to

459
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,300
Speaker 1: consider as well when a hammer or the hammerling is mentioned.

460
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,900
Speaker 1: And the poem in question that the author is commenting

461
00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:05,740
Speaker 1: on here concerns a passage where the poet is pleading

462
00:28:06,020 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 1: for Master Hammerling to build a bridge for the poet. Like, hey,

463
00:28:10,900 --> 00:28:14,460
Speaker 1: Master of Hammering, build me a bridge. And sometimes in English,

464
00:28:14,500 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: this gets transmitted into hangman. Apparently, because I guess English

465
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,100
Speaker 1: readers aren't going to necessarily pick up on the mind

466
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: monk thing and you need some sort of ominous presence

467
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,820
Speaker 1: like that you are calling to like, hey, hey, hangman,

468
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,910
Speaker 1: or even like, hey, death, build me a bridge. So

469
00:28:31,930 --> 00:28:35,010
Speaker 1: I found that interesting and perhaps speaks to the intimidating

470
00:28:35,090 --> 00:28:38,870
Speaker 1: nature of the monk in question. Because descriptions of this

471
00:28:38,950 --> 00:28:42,650
Speaker 1: entity sound rather intimidating. We're not talking about a little

472
00:28:42,670 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: person here. We're talking about a gigantic figure. in a

473
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:52,540
Speaker 1: dark robe, a giant. And the Grimms write that he

474
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,350
Speaker 1: frequently appears in, there are several different mines that he mentions.

475
00:28:56,530 --> 00:29:02,110
Speaker 1: One is the Graubünden Alps, but especially on Fridays, that's

476
00:29:02,170 --> 00:29:06,030
Speaker 1: when you will find him in the shafts. He's generally

477
00:29:06,130 --> 00:29:09,810
Speaker 1: seen there emptying a bucket of ore into another bucket

478
00:29:10,210 --> 00:29:13,410
Speaker 1: and then back again. So once more, we have this

479
00:29:13,530 --> 00:29:17,620
Speaker 1: idea of the supernatural entity in the mine Creating a racket,

480
00:29:17,740 --> 00:29:21,420
Speaker 1: messing with the tools and equipment, but not getting any

481
00:29:21,460 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: work done. Okay.

482
00:29:23,060 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 2: We've seen this before.

483
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: Yeah. So in this case, you know, basically the Grimms

484
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,010
Speaker 1: tell a few different stories. And the Grimms explained that

485
00:29:31,030 --> 00:29:33,469
Speaker 1: the mine owner in this particular case was well aware

486
00:29:33,690 --> 00:29:37,010
Speaker 1: of this particular spirit and made sure everyone left him alone. Like,

487
00:29:37,090 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: don't object to what he's doing. It seems pointless, but...

488
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,700
Speaker 1: just leave him alone and he won't harm us. And

489
00:29:42,740 --> 00:29:45,540
Speaker 1: so he kept to himself, didn't cause any trouble. But then,

490
00:29:45,580 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: of course, one day, a reckless miner, probably a young miner,

491
00:29:49,610 --> 00:29:52,970
Speaker 1: scolded and cursed at the mine monk. And this did

492
00:29:53,030 --> 00:29:56,140
Speaker 1: not go well for him. They explain that the giant

493
00:29:56,180 --> 00:30:01,300
Speaker 1: hooded figure lunged at this reckless, I assume, youth picks

494
00:30:01,380 --> 00:30:03,260
Speaker 1: they pick him up. It picks him up and then

495
00:30:03,380 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: shakes him so severely that his face turns inside out

496
00:30:07,060 --> 00:30:08,640
Speaker 1: like it doesn't kill him. But for the rest of

497
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,570
Speaker 1: his life, he walks around with an inside out face.

498
00:30:12,050 --> 00:30:14,710
Speaker 2: Just one curse of that monk and you're inside out.

499
00:30:15,050 --> 00:30:18,430
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now. How are we supposed to interpret this? I

500
00:30:18,470 --> 00:30:21,770
Speaker 1: couldn't find a lot of scholarly breakdown on this. This

501
00:30:21,850 --> 00:30:25,570
Speaker 1: is not a grim story that's translated a lot, apparently. But,

502
00:30:25,710 --> 00:30:27,710
Speaker 1: you know, we can easily imagine this as being a

503
00:30:28,230 --> 00:30:31,190
Speaker 1: description of a very real disfigurement from a mining accident.

504
00:30:31,930 --> 00:30:34,620
Speaker 1: It could very well just be a magical, you know,

505
00:30:35,020 --> 00:30:37,660
Speaker 1: inversion of the face. Or it could be something related

506
00:30:37,700 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: to trauma, you know, some sort of like a look

507
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,380
Speaker 1: of fear locked into the facial features or something. Hmm.

508
00:30:45,060 --> 00:30:46,940
Speaker 1: All right. So there are more mind monk stories, though.

509
00:30:47,620 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: They share some accounts of the Anna mine. They say

510
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,469
Speaker 1: a dozen men were working in the silver-rich Rosencrantz shaft

511
00:30:55,070 --> 00:30:58,310
Speaker 1: when a mind monk appeared, or the mind monk appeared,

512
00:30:58,730 --> 00:31:01,590
Speaker 1: and breathed on them, causing them all to drop dead,

513
00:31:01,930 --> 00:31:07,140
Speaker 1: and the shaft was abandoned thereafter. That's a bad breath. Yeah.

514
00:31:07,260 --> 00:31:09,459
Speaker 1: And this is very interesting, too, because it speaks to

515
00:31:09,500 --> 00:31:13,860
Speaker 1: the very real dangers of mind gases, which are in

516
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:18,790
Speaker 1: mine terminology called damps. This comes from the German dampf,

517
00:31:19,070 --> 00:31:22,590
Speaker 1: which means vapor. So we have, I was not familiar

518
00:31:22,610 --> 00:31:26,210
Speaker 1: with this, but we have various types of damps that

519
00:31:26,310 --> 00:31:29,670
Speaker 1: can occur in a mine environment. And again, in the

520
00:31:29,710 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: language and terminology of miners. You have fire damp. This

521
00:31:33,220 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: is a gas that occurs naturally in coal seams. It's

522
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: apparently nearly always methane, highly flammable and explosive at higher concentrations.

523
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,540
Speaker 1: Then we have white damp or carbon monoxide, particularly toxic

524
00:31:46,580 --> 00:31:48,870
Speaker 1: and perhaps a reasonable fit for the breadth of the

525
00:31:48,900 --> 00:31:53,070
Speaker 1: mine bunk because at the correct or the wrong concentrations,

526
00:31:53,410 --> 00:31:55,370
Speaker 1: it can cause death within a few minutes. And this

527
00:31:55,430 --> 00:31:59,350
Speaker 1: is a risk, particularly in coal mines. We have black damp.

528
00:32:00,030 --> 00:32:03,620
Speaker 1: This is a situation where the atmosphere won't allow you

529
00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: to light a lamp, usually because of an excess of

530
00:32:07,260 --> 00:32:10,940
Speaker 1: carbon dioxide and nitrogen in the air. Then there's stink damp.

531
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,670
Speaker 1: hydrogen sulfide. So you have the smell, the rotten egg smell.

532
00:32:15,150 --> 00:32:17,290
Speaker 1: And then there's after damp. And this is a mixture

533
00:32:17,310 --> 00:32:20,150
Speaker 1: of gases found in a mine after an explosion or

534
00:32:20,190 --> 00:32:20,630
Speaker 1: a fire.

535
00:32:21,190 --> 00:32:24,170
Speaker 2: Oh, so a lot of different gas hazards occurring in

536
00:32:24,210 --> 00:32:25,270
Speaker 2: a mine. Yeah.

537
00:32:25,390 --> 00:32:28,300
Speaker 1: Yeah. But I like this idea of presenting one of

538
00:32:28,340 --> 00:32:32,380
Speaker 1: these damps again, probably white damp as like the the

539
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,500
Speaker 1: killing breath weapon of the mine monk. Yeah. Though in

540
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:36,959
Speaker 1: this case, I don't you know, it doesn't sound like

541
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,670
Speaker 1: they did anything to particularly offend the mind monk, except

542
00:32:40,710 --> 00:32:43,330
Speaker 1: maybe went into a shaft, went into a part of

543
00:32:43,370 --> 00:32:45,350
Speaker 1: the mountain they were not supposed to venture into.

544
00:32:46,130 --> 00:32:49,010
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it could be that this story in particular

545
00:32:49,050 --> 00:32:51,830
Speaker 2: has less of a moralistic bent and is instead an

546
00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:56,850
Speaker 2: attempt to magically explain a natural phenomenon.

547
00:32:57,350 --> 00:33:00,210
Speaker 1: Exactly, yeah. And in most of these stories, I'll get

548
00:33:00,230 --> 00:33:01,990
Speaker 1: to one where the mind monk talks, but most of

549
00:33:02,020 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 1: the time it seems like the mind monk doesn't speak.

550
00:33:05,740 --> 00:33:08,660
Speaker 1: You just encounter it. It's fearsome to look at and,

551
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: you know, hope that he just continues to pour ore

552
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: from one bucket to another and doesn't breathe on you. Now,

553
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,010
Speaker 1: let's see a few other tales of the mine monk.

554
00:33:17,290 --> 00:33:21,030
Speaker 1: They mentioned that in the Anna mine, the mine monk

555
00:33:21,070 --> 00:33:23,850
Speaker 1: appeared as well in the shape of a steed with

556
00:33:23,890 --> 00:33:27,430
Speaker 1: a long neck and terrifying eyes. So an alternate form here.

557
00:33:28,430 --> 00:33:31,170
Speaker 1: And in the St. George mine, it said that he

558
00:33:31,310 --> 00:33:33,900
Speaker 1: appeared in his standard form, you know, the tall man,

559
00:33:35,590 --> 00:33:40,290
Speaker 1: black robed giant, grabbed a young miner, lifted him up

560
00:33:40,530 --> 00:33:43,610
Speaker 1: into a silver rich shaft, and then sat him back

561
00:33:43,650 --> 00:33:47,030
Speaker 1: down so violently that he injured all of the youth's limbs.

562
00:33:48,170 --> 00:33:51,510
Speaker 1: And in the Harz Mountains, the mine monk was said

563
00:33:51,550 --> 00:33:54,390
Speaker 1: to punish a foreman who was cruel to his workers

564
00:33:54,510 --> 00:33:57,770
Speaker 1: by positioning himself above the entrance to a particular shaft.

565
00:33:58,130 --> 00:34:00,630
Speaker 1: And when the foreman emerged beneath him, he caught the

566
00:34:00,670 --> 00:34:04,810
Speaker 1: man's head between his legs and crushed his skull. Whoa. OK. Yeah.

567
00:34:04,930 --> 00:34:07,480
Speaker 1: So now we have a little bit of the like

568
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:11,180
Speaker 1: the moral, even you could maybe say devil work of

569
00:34:11,219 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: the entity here because he's punishing a cruel foreman. Yeah.

570
00:34:15,020 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: All right. But the best story, and this is one

571
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: where the mind monk speaks, is the tale they tell

572
00:34:20,660 --> 00:34:24,890
Speaker 1: of the mind monk of the Harz Mountains, which I

573
00:34:24,930 --> 00:34:28,330
Speaker 1: found some nice similarities between this and the Japanese ghost

574
00:34:28,350 --> 00:34:30,910
Speaker 1: story concerning the Yuki Ono, the Lady of the Snow.

575
00:34:31,489 --> 00:34:34,060
Speaker 2: Is this the story of the woman whose secret is

576
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,100
Speaker 2: kept for many years, but then when the secret is revealed?

577
00:34:37,180 --> 00:34:40,280
Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah. And she's at once like a natural force,

578
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: but also she takes pity on mortals. But, you know,

579
00:34:43,580 --> 00:34:46,609
Speaker 1: it does ask for that secrecy in return. Okay.

580
00:34:46,710 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 2: Let's hear it.

581
00:34:47,330 --> 00:34:49,390
Speaker 1: Okay. So in this story, we have a pair of miners.

582
00:34:49,610 --> 00:34:52,170
Speaker 1: They work as a team. And they descended into their

583
00:34:52,190 --> 00:34:54,569
Speaker 1: shaft one day. And then, uh-oh, they realized that they

584
00:34:54,630 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: didn't have enough lamp oil to complete their shift. They'd

585
00:34:58,140 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: have to go all the way back home to get

586
00:34:59,860 --> 00:35:02,140
Speaker 1: more lamp oil. And of course, that was just going

587
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 1: to tick off the mine foreman in the process. So

588
00:35:05,420 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: it seemed like a real losing situation. But then what occurs? Well,

589
00:35:09,660 --> 00:35:12,500
Speaker 1: they see a light appearing down the shaft, deeper in

590
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,300
Speaker 1: the shaft, you know, coming from deeper into the mountain.

591
00:35:16,860 --> 00:35:19,990
Speaker 1: And lo and behold, approaching them is a towering figure

592
00:35:20,030 --> 00:35:23,250
Speaker 1: in a black robe carrying a miner's lamp. It is

593
00:35:23,310 --> 00:35:26,290
Speaker 1: the mine monk. And the two miners are, of course,

594
00:35:26,350 --> 00:35:29,009
Speaker 1: terrified here. But the mind monk actually speaks to them

595
00:35:29,410 --> 00:35:32,339
Speaker 1: and tells them not to be afraid. Quote, do not fear.

596
00:35:32,739 --> 00:35:36,620
Speaker 1: I shall do you no harm, but rather good. All right.

597
00:35:36,660 --> 00:35:38,660
Speaker 1: What's he going to do? Well, he pours some of

598
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: his lamp oil into their lamps and then he grabs

599
00:35:42,660 --> 00:35:46,140
Speaker 1: their tools and begins to work, doing a week's worth

600
00:35:46,180 --> 00:35:47,900
Speaker 1: of work in a single hour.

601
00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 2: Seems like a good deal.

602
00:35:49,300 --> 00:35:52,770
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to read another passage here. Tell

603
00:35:52,870 --> 00:35:55,350
Speaker 1: no one that you have seen me here, he says.

604
00:35:55,969 --> 00:35:58,410
Speaker 1: And then he slammed his fist against the shaft wall,

605
00:35:58,469 --> 00:36:02,460
Speaker 1: which shattered, revealing a long vein sparkling with pure gold

606
00:36:02,540 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 1: and silver. So once more, you know, a spirit of

607
00:36:05,900 --> 00:36:10,420
Speaker 1: the mountain revealing a rich vein of treasure inside the wall.

608
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,569
Speaker 2: It's like boon, boon, boon. He gives them the oil,

609
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:15,969
Speaker 2: but in fact, they didn't even necessarily need the oil

610
00:36:15,989 --> 00:36:17,830
Speaker 2: because he did all the work for them for a

611
00:36:17,870 --> 00:36:20,780
Speaker 2: whole week's worth. And then is like, As a bonus,

612
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 2: here's another vein.

613
00:36:21,900 --> 00:36:25,420
Speaker 1: Yeah, they really hit the jackpot with this guy. Sometimes

614
00:36:25,460 --> 00:36:29,020
Speaker 1: the mind monk breathes toxic death on you. Other times

615
00:36:29,060 --> 00:36:33,299
Speaker 1: he just gives you gift after unearned gift. But this one,

616
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,460
Speaker 1: it gets a little weird here because at this point,

617
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: the gold and silver is so blinding, so dazzling, that

618
00:36:38,820 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 1: the two mortal miners have to look away. And when

619
00:36:41,300 --> 00:36:43,969
Speaker 1: they look back, the mind monk and the vein of

620
00:36:44,030 --> 00:36:47,860
Speaker 1: riches are gone. Hmm. The Grimms here add that if

621
00:36:47,890 --> 00:36:50,020
Speaker 1: these miners had been quicker, they might have heaved a

622
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,020
Speaker 1: pick into the shaft that had been open or the

623
00:36:53,060 --> 00:36:54,899
Speaker 1: vein that had been open, but it was too late.

624
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,379
Speaker 1: So they didn't get the full riches that the mind

625
00:36:58,420 --> 00:37:00,830
Speaker 1: monk had revealed to them, but the oil in their

626
00:37:00,890 --> 00:37:04,930
Speaker 1: lanterns proved inexhaustible. And this, of course, gave them a

627
00:37:04,969 --> 00:37:08,089
Speaker 1: huge advantage over other miners. Other miners, their lamps can

628
00:37:08,170 --> 00:37:10,090
Speaker 1: run dry, and then they have to go out and

629
00:37:10,110 --> 00:37:12,989
Speaker 1: get more lamp oil. But these two Their lamps have

630
00:37:13,010 --> 00:37:15,549
Speaker 1: been blessed by the mind monk's lamp oil, and they'll

631
00:37:15,590 --> 00:37:17,730
Speaker 1: just burn, you know, without end.

632
00:37:18,270 --> 00:37:20,450
Speaker 2: Oh, that seems even better than the vein, right? I mean,

633
00:37:20,489 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 2: you can use that the rest of your life.

634
00:37:22,450 --> 00:37:25,460
Speaker 1: Yeah, but the mind monk did say, tell no one

635
00:37:25,500 --> 00:37:28,580
Speaker 1: that you have seen me here. And one Saturday night,

636
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,720
Speaker 1: what do they do? They're out drinking with their friends

637
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: in the tavern, and they tell the whole story. They

638
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,890
Speaker 1: end up breaking their word to the mind monk, and

639
00:37:35,910 --> 00:37:39,509
Speaker 1: the magical oil in their lanterns promptly gives out. Wow.

640
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 1: I mean, in terms of bad things that could happen

641
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: after encountering the mind monk, this isn't too bad. They

642
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,739
Speaker 1: just basically lost the boon that the entity had given them.

643
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,060
Speaker 1: And it's similar to what occurs in The Lady of

644
00:37:53,100 --> 00:37:57,170
Speaker 1: the Snow. You know, she, in most tellings anyway, she

645
00:37:57,210 --> 00:38:01,310
Speaker 1: does not kill the man who has finally revealed what

646
00:38:01,370 --> 00:38:05,469
Speaker 1: happened on that fateful night during the snowstorm. But she

647
00:38:05,510 --> 00:38:08,510
Speaker 1: does leave him and I believe takes the children that

648
00:38:08,550 --> 00:38:09,669
Speaker 1: she has had with him as well.

649
00:38:10,810 --> 00:38:12,770
Speaker 2: But it's not in this story like the mind monk

650
00:38:12,989 --> 00:38:14,270
Speaker 2: breathes on them.

651
00:38:14,370 --> 00:38:17,390
Speaker 1: Because they have told. Yeah, they told, so they lost

652
00:38:18,050 --> 00:38:30,090
Speaker 1: the magical lamp oil that he had given. So I

653
00:38:30,130 --> 00:38:32,310
Speaker 1: like how we see in this tale of the mind monk,

654
00:38:32,350 --> 00:38:35,510
Speaker 1: several of these various tales of the mind monk, several

655
00:38:35,550 --> 00:38:38,430
Speaker 1: recurring themes of mind shaft entities. We've got that pointless

656
00:38:38,489 --> 00:38:42,410
Speaker 1: labor that is sometimes beneficial. A power not to be offended,

657
00:38:42,770 --> 00:38:46,589
Speaker 1: revelation of riches, deadly gas, lights in the dark, and

658
00:38:46,630 --> 00:38:51,210
Speaker 1: also sudden violent action, not unlike a cave-in or various

659
00:38:51,250 --> 00:38:56,420
Speaker 1: other related events. There are various sorts of rapid high-release

660
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: energy phenomena inside of a mind that could stand in

661
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,899
Speaker 1: for one of these encounters where, again, the mind monk

662
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,739
Speaker 1: is picking you up and shaking you, or even picking

663
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,330
Speaker 1: you up and sticking you into a shaft and then

664
00:39:07,370 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 1: dropping you back down again. You have things like mine

665
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 1: trimmers and rock bursts, seismic events, methane, coal dust explosions

666
00:39:15,300 --> 00:39:18,170
Speaker 1: and groundfalls. As for the lights, you know, you have

667
00:39:18,210 --> 00:39:21,330
Speaker 1: sensory deprivation that might result in visual hallucinations in a

668
00:39:21,350 --> 00:39:24,770
Speaker 1: mining environment. But then also methane or coal dust explosions,

669
00:39:25,290 --> 00:39:30,510
Speaker 1: open flame ignitions and even electrical arcing and detonations. lightning

670
00:39:30,550 --> 00:39:33,690
Speaker 1: strikes in mines. This is apparently a significant risk for

671
00:39:33,730 --> 00:39:38,549
Speaker 1: some mining operations, which might seem counterintuitive to a lot

672
00:39:38,590 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: of folks that don't know anything about mining. You would think, oh,

673
00:39:42,660 --> 00:39:47,710
Speaker 1: you're underground, you're safe. Not necessarily the case. And then mythologically,

674
00:39:47,810 --> 00:39:50,150
Speaker 1: I can only assume there is at least some connection

675
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:53,489
Speaker 1: here between, again, the towering mind monks and tales of

676
00:39:53,570 --> 00:39:57,060
Speaker 1: stone giants, such as, you know, the Jotun of Norse myth,

677
00:39:57,500 --> 00:39:59,980
Speaker 1: which included, yes, like storm giants and so forth, but

678
00:40:00,020 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 1: also ice giants, but also mountain giants divided between mountain

679
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: dwellers and cliff giants. A number of Norse mythological concepts

680
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,259
Speaker 1: find their way into German traditions, and this includes the

681
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,739
Speaker 1: figure of Rubzal, or the Lord of the Mountains. And

682
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: there are various versions of him in other European traditions

683
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:25,100
Speaker 1: as well. Joe, I included a painting of this character, Rubezal,

684
00:40:25,140 --> 00:40:27,779
Speaker 1: the Lord of the Mountains here. This is from 1859

685
00:40:27,780 --> 00:40:32,910
Speaker 1: by Morse von Schwendt, I believe. I'd seen this before

686
00:40:33,190 --> 00:40:35,589
Speaker 1: in a book from my childhood. Maybe it was one

687
00:40:35,610 --> 00:40:42,060
Speaker 1: of those fantastic legends from time-life books, a series on giants. But,

688
00:40:42,420 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 1: you know, we see like a monk-type figure with a

689
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 1: A jutting beard, just walking through the forest here.

690
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:49,980
Speaker 2: Looks like he's wearing flip-flops.

691
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:55,070
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Some sort of old-timey Crocs. Yeah, yeah. I

692
00:40:55,130 --> 00:40:57,110
Speaker 1: like it. So I have two more entities I want

693
00:40:57,150 --> 00:41:00,169
Speaker 1: to discuss here, and they're international entities, which I think

694
00:41:00,830 --> 00:41:03,860
Speaker 1: rounds things out rather nicely. The first I want to

695
00:41:03,900 --> 00:41:08,870
Speaker 1: bring up is El Tío of Bolivia. The author, Luke Fater,

696
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 1: explored this one in a 2019 Atlas Obscura article that

697
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,980
Speaker 1: has some great photographs with it as well. So basically,

698
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,260
Speaker 1: the practices associated with this entity occur in the silver

699
00:41:20,300 --> 00:41:24,230
Speaker 1: mines of Cerro Rico in the Bolivian Andes. And here,

700
00:41:24,430 --> 00:41:28,310
Speaker 1: otherwise Catholic Christian local miners leave cigarettes at the base

701
00:41:28,350 --> 00:41:32,009
Speaker 1: of some apparently 600 shrines to El Tio, which I

702
00:41:32,250 --> 00:41:36,380
Speaker 1: believe translates to the uncle, And this is a goatish

703
00:41:36,580 --> 00:41:41,049
Speaker 1: devil looking figure with horns like red skin, a goatee

704
00:41:41,300 --> 00:41:45,790
Speaker 1: and generally a jutting erection. They'll soak his impish likeness

705
00:41:45,850 --> 00:41:49,310
Speaker 1: in alcohol. Llama blood is apparently offered once a year

706
00:41:49,350 --> 00:41:52,190
Speaker 1: as well. There are some different accounts of that. And

707
00:41:52,210 --> 00:41:54,630
Speaker 1: then you also will make offerings of cigarettes or even

708
00:41:54,750 --> 00:41:57,290
Speaker 1: light a cigarette in his lips. And the degree to

709
00:41:57,350 --> 00:41:59,590
Speaker 1: which the cigarette burns down might be a sign of

710
00:41:59,650 --> 00:42:00,069
Speaker 1: good luck.

711
00:42:00,739 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 2: From what I understand, LTO, much like many of these

712
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:07,380
Speaker 2: other figures we've been talking about, is a being of

713
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:12,379
Speaker 2: both blessings and curses that you can do well by

714
00:42:12,460 --> 00:42:16,219
Speaker 2: appeasing him or you could incur wrath and danger by

715
00:42:16,280 --> 00:42:17,140
Speaker 2: not appeasing him.

716
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,780
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. Definitely getting into this idea of it standing

717
00:42:20,820 --> 00:42:24,340
Speaker 1: as a kind of nature entity. So as Fodder explains

718
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:26,620
Speaker 1: in the article, there seem to be several forces at

719
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,259
Speaker 1: work with the genesis of this practice. So under Spanish rule,

720
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,890
Speaker 1: colonial rule, the mountain was mined under just really brutal conditions.

721
00:42:35,610 --> 00:42:39,330
Speaker 1: He writes, quote, between four and eight million Kachuan Indians

722
00:42:39,410 --> 00:42:43,510
Speaker 1: and enslaved Africans died mining the mountain. And among other names,

723
00:42:43,550 --> 00:42:45,930
Speaker 1: the mountain was known as the mountain that eats men.

724
00:42:46,530 --> 00:42:50,270
Speaker 1: So brutal conditions here. And you had this influx, too,

725
00:42:50,310 --> 00:42:54,290
Speaker 1: of Christianity and its devil iconography melding, of course, with

726
00:42:54,330 --> 00:42:58,750
Speaker 1: local folk beliefs and those of enslaved people from Africa, again,

727
00:42:58,850 --> 00:43:01,509
Speaker 1: in a dangerous environment. I think that's one of the

728
00:43:01,890 --> 00:43:05,359
Speaker 1: things that's so captivating about any of these mining tales

729
00:43:05,500 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: is that we have folkloric elements being developed and nurtured

730
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: like right at the edge of life and death. I mean,

731
00:43:12,380 --> 00:43:16,340
Speaker 1: that's often the case, I guess, in life anyway, actual

732
00:43:16,380 --> 00:43:19,180
Speaker 1: life and death scenarios, perceived life and death scenarios. But

733
00:43:19,820 --> 00:43:24,090
Speaker 1: in the mine, everything feels perhaps heightened, right? Like it's

734
00:43:24,110 --> 00:43:26,690
Speaker 1: a pressure cooker for folkloric belief.

735
00:43:27,260 --> 00:43:29,940
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I guess there is a temptation sometimes to

736
00:43:30,060 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 2: think of the creativity that drives the emergence of new

737
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,940
Speaker 2: pieces of folklore, creatures, and stories as coming from an

738
00:43:38,020 --> 00:43:42,590
Speaker 2: environment of ease and idleness. When do you make up stories?

739
00:43:42,630 --> 00:43:45,069
Speaker 2: Maybe when you're chilling, when you've got nothing else to do,

740
00:43:45,170 --> 00:43:48,150
Speaker 2: not much to worry about. But no, in fact, in reality,

741
00:43:48,190 --> 00:43:51,430
Speaker 2: people are often making up the most interesting and creative

742
00:43:51,469 --> 00:43:55,720
Speaker 2: stories folklore is developing under really harsh conditions, under times

743
00:43:55,780 --> 00:43:58,919
Speaker 2: when people are facing threats of death or when they've got,

744
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:00,740
Speaker 2: you know, a lot to worry about.

745
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it's sometimes it's the case. Yeah. You may,

746
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: you may make up the story or elements of the

747
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,140
Speaker 1: story when in your leisure time, when things are nice,

748
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,980
Speaker 1: but when things are bad, when maybe when the silver

749
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,490
Speaker 1: mother is not too far off in the distance, that's

750
00:44:14,510 --> 00:44:17,770
Speaker 1: when you find out what the story means. So I

751
00:44:17,810 --> 00:44:20,609
Speaker 1: don't know. It's interesting to think about here, but coming

752
00:44:20,630 --> 00:44:22,529
Speaker 1: back to LTO here. Yeah. There apparently seems to be

753
00:44:22,550 --> 00:44:25,850
Speaker 1: a strong sense that in order to take from the mountain,

754
00:44:26,180 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 1: takes silver from the mountain you have to give back

755
00:44:28,219 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: to the spirit of the mountain and that's what these

756
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,860
Speaker 1: offerings to lt over about um you know that it's

757
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,380
Speaker 1: ultimately a force that might bring good luck or terrible

758
00:44:36,660 --> 00:44:40,620
Speaker 1: doom depending on how you've honored and respected him and

759
00:44:40,700 --> 00:44:43,940
Speaker 1: so you know clearly influenced by some visual ideas concerning

760
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:47,719
Speaker 1: the christian devil but he seems very rooted in indigenous

761
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,010
Speaker 1: ideas of earth deities and the entities phallus would seem

762
00:44:51,050 --> 00:44:53,450
Speaker 1: to speak to this as well you know that um

763
00:44:54,180 --> 00:44:57,779
Speaker 1: He's an entity that is associated with sometimes doom, but

764
00:44:57,860 --> 00:45:01,989
Speaker 1: also life. But where does that life spring from? It

765
00:45:02,010 --> 00:45:05,010
Speaker 1: would seem to be more elemental in nature. Yeah.

766
00:45:05,100 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 2: There's another... mining-related entity from the Andean region known as

767
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:14,020
Speaker 2: Muki that has some characteristics in common with LTO here.

768
00:45:14,700 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 2: But the Muki in the Andean mines is a being

769
00:45:18,140 --> 00:45:21,589
Speaker 2: that sometimes, like many of the other stories we've talked about,

770
00:45:21,620 --> 00:45:24,509
Speaker 2: sometimes can lead people to riches or sometimes can lead

771
00:45:24,530 --> 00:45:25,930
Speaker 2: them to danger and curses.

772
00:45:27,870 --> 00:45:29,629
Speaker 1: All right. I have one more I want to mention here,

773
00:45:29,650 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: and this is one that I was initially reading about

774
00:45:33,469 --> 00:45:37,550
Speaker 1: in Carol Rose's book of fairies and leprechauns. She brings

775
00:45:37,650 --> 00:45:41,530
Speaker 1: up an example of a spirit that is also tied

776
00:45:41,590 --> 00:45:44,819
Speaker 1: to both virility, again, coming back to the phallus of

777
00:45:44,989 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 1: El Tio, but is also associated with minds. And that

778
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,380
Speaker 1: is the trickster spirit Eshu of the Yoruba people of Nigeria.

779
00:45:54,219 --> 00:45:57,090
Speaker 1: So apparently he, according to Rose, I'm going to caveat

780
00:45:57,110 --> 00:46:00,770
Speaker 1: this in a minute. Um, This entity is portrayed as

781
00:46:00,850 --> 00:46:03,610
Speaker 1: both a trickster and a protector, is the patron of

782
00:46:03,670 --> 00:46:07,210
Speaker 1: both mothers in childbirth and minors in Nigerian coal fields.

783
00:46:07,690 --> 00:46:10,779
Speaker 1: And he's depicted as having a large lock of plaited

784
00:46:10,860 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: hair sculpted like a penis. Now, elsewhere, I've seen this

785
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,660
Speaker 1: described as more of a huge backward curving horn or

786
00:46:18,739 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 1: like a horned headdress. And the god, while usually regarded

787
00:46:22,540 --> 00:46:25,739
Speaker 1: as male, also sometimes either takes a feminine form or

788
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:30,010
Speaker 1: features feminine features such as breasts. I've also read Eshu

789
00:46:30,030 --> 00:46:32,870
Speaker 1: described as the anger of the gods. And as one

790
00:46:32,890 --> 00:46:36,790
Speaker 1: might expect, religions from afar, such as Christianity, have often

791
00:46:36,830 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: attempted to recast Eshu as more of a devil figure,

792
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: though clearly he seems to have a more nuanced presence,

793
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:46,100
Speaker 1: sometimes described as a god of trickery, but also a

794
00:46:46,140 --> 00:46:49,500
Speaker 1: god of surprise. And I found that really interesting. But again,

795
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:54,060
Speaker 1: a god that, you know, according to these sources... was

796
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:59,180
Speaker 1: both associated with mining, but also childbirth and surprise.

797
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,710
Speaker 2: Yeah. So interesting that figures associated from mining from all

798
00:47:03,730 --> 00:47:06,710
Speaker 2: these different parts of the world and different cultures have

799
00:47:06,750 --> 00:47:10,850
Speaker 2: a few things seemingly in common. One is the bivalent

800
00:47:10,930 --> 00:47:16,380
Speaker 2: nature that they can represent either dangers or boons and

801
00:47:16,420 --> 00:47:20,500
Speaker 2: blessings that they might be helpful or they might be harmful.

802
00:47:20,989 --> 00:47:24,310
Speaker 2: and also that they are so often associated with tricks

803
00:47:24,430 --> 00:47:29,280
Speaker 2: and mischief, pranks. That doesn't seem like, I mean, obviously

804
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 2: I don't have, I'm not a miner, so I have

805
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,500
Speaker 2: no experience in the mine, but I think the lay

806
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,760
Speaker 2: person who has no experience would not assume a natural

807
00:47:37,820 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 2: connection between the environment of a mine and the concept

808
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:46,650
Speaker 2: of tricks, trickster behavior or mischief or pranks, but that

809
00:47:46,690 --> 00:47:47,970
Speaker 2: does seem to be very common.

810
00:47:49,140 --> 00:47:51,580
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And as I mentioned in the last episode,

811
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure we have some listeners out there who are

812
00:47:54,060 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 1: miners or have been in the mining business before. If

813
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,379
Speaker 1: that's the case, I would love to hear from anyone

814
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,250
Speaker 1: out there if you have particular insight on the, I

815
00:48:02,270 --> 00:48:06,450
Speaker 1: don't know, just the headspace of miners, if not some

816
00:48:06,469 --> 00:48:09,950
Speaker 1: of these traditions or remnants of these traditions that may

817
00:48:09,989 --> 00:48:12,230
Speaker 1: or may not still exist today. I mean, some of

818
00:48:12,250 --> 00:48:16,140
Speaker 1: them definitely do, but I'm Again, I would just like

819
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,700
Speaker 1: to hear from from from actual folks out there who

820
00:48:19,739 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 1: have real life experience in the mines.

821
00:48:22,620 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 2: Contact at stuff to blow your mind dot com.

822
00:48:25,500 --> 00:48:28,029
Speaker 1: All right. We're going to go ahead and close off

823
00:48:28,070 --> 00:48:30,390
Speaker 1: this shaft for today. But we'd love to hear from

824
00:48:30,430 --> 00:48:34,010
Speaker 1: everyone out there. If you have some favorite mind spirits

825
00:48:34,050 --> 00:48:36,170
Speaker 1: that we didn't cover in this episode, also write in

826
00:48:36,210 --> 00:48:40,610
Speaker 1: with that or anything from like the wide world of

827
00:48:41,290 --> 00:48:45,750
Speaker 1: pop culture, magic, things inspired. You know, we mentioned Dungeons

828
00:48:45,770 --> 00:48:48,910
Speaker 1: and Dragons a bit, but, you know, any other fantasy

829
00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:51,550
Speaker 1: spin on any of these concepts, we would love to

830
00:48:51,570 --> 00:48:54,730
Speaker 1: hear from you on that as well. Just a reminder,

831
00:48:54,770 --> 00:48:56,529
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science and

832
00:48:56,570 --> 00:48:59,950
Speaker 1: culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We

833
00:48:59,989 --> 00:49:02,589
Speaker 1: do a short-form episode on Wednesdays, and on Fridays, we

834
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: set aside most serious concerns to just talk about a

835
00:49:04,660 --> 00:49:06,180
Speaker 1: weird film on Weird House Cinema.

836
00:49:06,580 --> 00:49:09,500
Speaker 2: Huge thanks, as always, to our excellent audio producer, J.J.

837
00:49:09,540 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 1: Posway.

838
00:49:10,469 --> 00:49:11,930
Speaker 2: If you would like to get in touch with us

839
00:49:11,989 --> 00:49:14,530
Speaker 2: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

840
00:49:14,590 --> 00:49:16,770
Speaker 2: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

841
00:49:17,010 --> 00:49:19,969
Speaker 2: you can email us as always at contact at stuff.

842
00:49:28,950 --> 00:49:31,410
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843
00:49:31,770 --> 00:49:35,089
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844
00:49:35,110 --> 00:49:44,620
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