1 00:00:15,396 --> 00:00:23,996 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Imagine there's a place in our world where the 2 00:00:24,076 --> 00:00:31,196 Speaker 1: known things go. A library, a cabinet of curiosities, bookshelves, 3 00:00:31,596 --> 00:00:36,076 Speaker 1: filing cabinets, old rules of film. The problem is my 4 00:00:36,196 --> 00:00:39,756 Speaker 1: dogs have gotten in here, slavered all over my copies 5 00:00:39,796 --> 00:00:44,716 Speaker 1: of Charles Darwin's books, completely chewed the cover off my 6 00:00:44,796 --> 00:00:49,516 Speaker 1: first edition of the Story of Doctor Doolittle. What are 7 00:00:49,556 --> 00:00:54,076 Speaker 1: they thinking, these dogs? Oh well, there they go out 8 00:00:54,116 --> 00:00:59,316 Speaker 1: the door, Get out out. I'm gonna follow them over 9 00:00:59,356 --> 00:01:07,796 Speaker 1: the threshold to the dog park. Good morning, the dog park. 10 00:01:08,036 --> 00:01:11,036 Speaker 1: We're out every day today. It's with my producer Ben 11 00:01:11,436 --> 00:01:14,316 Speaker 1: and of course my two Great Danes, Greta and Daisy. 12 00:01:15,956 --> 00:01:19,116 Speaker 1: At seven am on a cold, icy winter morning at 13 00:01:19,156 --> 00:01:21,676 Speaker 1: a park the size of a soccer field, but white 14 00:01:21,796 --> 00:01:24,676 Speaker 1: with a blanket of snow. If you've ever been to 15 00:01:24,716 --> 00:01:27,356 Speaker 1: a dog park, then you know the drill, the whole scene, 16 00:01:27,876 --> 00:01:31,636 Speaker 1: gossiping with people about their dogs. Who's that dog? That's 17 00:01:31,596 --> 00:01:36,276 Speaker 1: Stevie Stephen didn't like the ice or snow. People are 18 00:01:36,316 --> 00:01:39,836 Speaker 1: doing the usual things, standing around, handing out treats, trying 19 00:01:39,876 --> 00:01:42,436 Speaker 1: to read the minds of dogs. How do you know 20 00:01:42,516 --> 00:01:46,996 Speaker 1: he doesn't like the ice of the snow? Um his 21 00:01:47,156 --> 00:01:49,236 Speaker 1: owner just says like he just won't walk on it, 22 00:01:49,276 --> 00:01:53,516 Speaker 1: like it's been a prop h is Davie, Hi, I 23 00:01:53,716 --> 00:01:57,276 Speaker 1: know I keep this here? You are you? What are 24 00:01:57,316 --> 00:02:02,636 Speaker 1: you thinking of? The smartest dog at the park is 25 00:02:02,636 --> 00:02:12,396 Speaker 1: a little red, brown, foxy looking Retriever named Aila. Aila. 26 00:02:13,596 --> 00:02:19,996 Speaker 1: Can I give her a treat every morning? Rain, snow 27 00:02:20,076 --> 00:02:23,276 Speaker 1: or sleep. My dogs try to steal Isla's tennis ball. 28 00:02:23,876 --> 00:02:29,076 Speaker 1: Sometimes they succeed, but Ila, she's really restrained. Yeah, I 29 00:02:29,276 --> 00:02:32,516 Speaker 1: was very smart. Eilah knows she can't take Daisy's ball 30 00:02:32,676 --> 00:02:38,636 Speaker 1: because Daisy. Daisy would just need assistance with her distress. 31 00:02:39,356 --> 00:02:41,556 Speaker 1: Eila figured out that there's a reason to be worried 32 00:02:41,556 --> 00:02:45,196 Speaker 1: about both of my dogs, Daisy because she's so emotionally 33 00:02:45,236 --> 00:02:49,556 Speaker 1: fragile and Greta because she's so sneaky. She's learning that. 34 00:02:49,876 --> 00:02:52,596 Speaker 1: But but but Greta does not know that she should 35 00:02:52,596 --> 00:02:57,156 Speaker 1: not eat Alla's balls because Greta well maybe Greta knows, 36 00:02:57,156 --> 00:03:02,916 Speaker 1: but she doesn't care. How do I know what Greta knows? 37 00:03:03,636 --> 00:03:07,916 Speaker 1: I don't, but I wish I did. Welcome to the 38 00:03:07,996 --> 00:03:10,356 Speaker 1: Last Archive, the show about how we know things and 39 00:03:10,396 --> 00:03:12,756 Speaker 1: why it's a hard lately to know anything at all. 40 00:03:13,236 --> 00:03:17,276 Speaker 1: I'm Jill Lapour this episode, how to animals know things? 41 00:03:17,556 --> 00:03:19,516 Speaker 1: And why is it so hard for us to know 42 00:03:19,596 --> 00:03:23,436 Speaker 1: how much they know? And why it matters that we try? 43 00:03:25,516 --> 00:03:28,076 Speaker 1: All over the world, for tens of thousands of years, 44 00:03:28,356 --> 00:03:32,516 Speaker 1: people have believed that animals have minds and souls. This 45 00:03:32,596 --> 00:03:35,276 Speaker 1: was a belief once so widely held that it amounted 46 00:03:35,316 --> 00:03:40,036 Speaker 1: to common knowledge, nearly universal knowledge. Only very recently, around 47 00:03:40,036 --> 00:03:42,756 Speaker 1: the beginning of the scientific revolution in the West, did 48 00:03:42,836 --> 00:03:47,356 Speaker 1: animals come to be thought of as essentially machines. Lately, though, 49 00:03:47,676 --> 00:03:51,596 Speaker 1: that's been changing as the study of animal cognition undergoes 50 00:03:51,796 --> 00:03:56,356 Speaker 1: a revolution. Meanwhile, the rest of us, just regular people. 51 00:03:56,516 --> 00:04:00,036 Speaker 1: We all have our theories about animal minds. Do you 52 00:04:00,076 --> 00:04:04,316 Speaker 1: think that you understand allah Ah? Sometimes she has fouds brain, 53 00:04:04,356 --> 00:04:09,316 Speaker 1: and I generally speaking, I think she's she's I went 54 00:04:09,356 --> 00:04:13,276 Speaker 1: pretty clear about what she wants. What is what leads 55 00:04:13,276 --> 00:04:16,436 Speaker 1: to fuzz brain? Fuzz? Right, she just sits there and 56 00:04:16,556 --> 00:04:21,476 Speaker 1: stairs off into the world. He's actually just contemplating very deeply. Yeah, 57 00:04:21,596 --> 00:04:25,076 Speaker 1: that might be the case. Eila is a dog that 58 00:04:25,196 --> 00:04:28,436 Speaker 1: was bred for smarts, So they're like one of the 59 00:04:28,476 --> 00:04:31,116 Speaker 1: smallest retrieving family and they're meant for like duck hunting, 60 00:04:31,196 --> 00:04:34,036 Speaker 1: like a truffle hunting. Things like that. She knows how 61 00:04:34,076 --> 00:04:36,956 Speaker 1: to get things for people, sort of like higher level 62 00:04:36,996 --> 00:04:40,236 Speaker 1: fetch refer to something in the house, so she like, yeah, 63 00:04:40,276 --> 00:04:43,836 Speaker 1: she's learned, like stickball, toybox, like a lot of the 64 00:04:43,836 --> 00:04:48,516 Speaker 1: basics like not whether or not she always listens is 65 00:04:48,796 --> 00:04:52,516 Speaker 1: mostly in her mood. But it is so tempting to 66 00:04:52,556 --> 00:04:55,476 Speaker 1: bring triloquise for dogs. I do it all the time. 67 00:04:55,876 --> 00:04:58,436 Speaker 1: I talk to them and then I fill in their responses, 68 00:04:59,076 --> 00:05:00,996 Speaker 1: Like the other day it was raining and I wanted 69 00:05:00,996 --> 00:05:02,956 Speaker 1: to let Greta out, but Greta was all, I want 70 00:05:02,996 --> 00:05:05,316 Speaker 1: to go out, but not until it stops raining all 71 00:05:05,356 --> 00:05:07,036 Speaker 1: or at least that's what I said on her behalf 72 00:05:07,076 --> 00:05:09,756 Speaker 1: when I was answering my own question, and when I 73 00:05:09,876 --> 00:05:14,036 Speaker 1: listened back to myself doing this, I think of Doctor Doolittle, 74 00:05:14,356 --> 00:05:17,956 Speaker 1: the children's book character who can talk to the animals, 75 00:05:18,276 --> 00:05:21,316 Speaker 1: or more to the point, he can listen to them. 76 00:05:21,516 --> 00:05:26,596 Speaker 1: If people ask me, can you speak rhydoceros, I'd say. 77 00:05:28,196 --> 00:05:31,276 Speaker 1: Rex Harrison played Doctor Doolittle in a musical from nineteen 78 00:05:31,316 --> 00:05:35,316 Speaker 1: sixty seven. Eddie Murphy's played him Robert Downey Junior, but 79 00:05:35,436 --> 00:05:38,356 Speaker 1: the first Doctor Doolittle book was published more than a 80 00:05:38,396 --> 00:05:41,476 Speaker 1: century ago. To try to understand what people know about 81 00:05:41,476 --> 00:05:47,036 Speaker 1: what animals know, I figured i'd better start with Doctor Doolittle. Sorry, 82 00:05:47,076 --> 00:05:49,196 Speaker 1: Pups book, We've got to leave the dog park and 83 00:05:49,316 --> 00:05:53,236 Speaker 1: go somewhere else, far away and long ago, to Flanders 84 00:05:53,236 --> 00:05:57,876 Speaker 1: Fields on the Western Front. In nineteen fifteen, in the 85 00:05:57,916 --> 00:06:08,236 Speaker 1: middle of unutterable devastation, a million soldiers died or were 86 00:06:08,276 --> 00:06:11,996 Speaker 1: wounded or appeared in Flanders Fields fighting in the Great War, 87 00:06:12,236 --> 00:06:16,596 Speaker 1: in the trenches in the mock. John McCrae, a Canadian doctor, 88 00:06:16,796 --> 00:06:20,756 Speaker 1: soldier and poet, he was there. A year later he 89 00:06:20,876 --> 00:06:25,196 Speaker 1: memorialized all that death in his poem in Flanders Fields. 90 00:06:26,156 --> 00:06:30,436 Speaker 1: In Flanders Fields, the poppies blow between the crosses row 91 00:06:30,596 --> 00:06:34,556 Speaker 1: on row that mark our place, and in the sky 92 00:06:35,316 --> 00:06:40,796 Speaker 1: the larks still bravely singing fly scarce heard amid the 93 00:06:40,836 --> 00:06:46,156 Speaker 1: guns below. But it wasn't just a million men who died. 94 00:06:46,956 --> 00:06:50,636 Speaker 1: Untold numbers of animals died in Flanders Fields, and doctor 95 00:06:50,716 --> 00:06:55,876 Speaker 1: John McCray loved animals, especially horses. McCray had sailed to 96 00:06:55,916 --> 00:06:59,116 Speaker 1: Europe in nineteen fourteen in a military convoy with thirty 97 00:06:59,156 --> 00:07:03,396 Speaker 1: thousand men, had eight thousand horses, including his own horse, Bonfire, 98 00:07:03,916 --> 00:07:07,556 Speaker 1: bound for the front. McCray mentioned Bonfire and letters home 99 00:07:07,596 --> 00:07:10,716 Speaker 1: to his sister. It was as if Bonfire could communicate. 100 00:07:11,556 --> 00:07:14,596 Speaker 1: McCray wrote, I wish you could meet him. He puts 101 00:07:14,596 --> 00:07:16,716 Speaker 1: his lips to your face and give us a kind 102 00:07:16,716 --> 00:07:21,476 Speaker 1: of foolish waffle. McCray marched with nine hundred men and 103 00:07:21,596 --> 00:07:25,556 Speaker 1: six hundred horses to Flanders Fields. The ensuing slaughter, the suffering, 104 00:07:26,076 --> 00:07:30,036 Speaker 1: It was unfathomable. The staggering, needless loss of life, the maiming, 105 00:07:30,436 --> 00:07:35,516 Speaker 1: the killing, and the anguished, tortured suffering of all those horses. 106 00:07:36,596 --> 00:07:39,316 Speaker 1: Britain alone lost half a million horses in the war. 107 00:07:39,956 --> 00:07:42,916 Speaker 1: One horse was killed for every two men. They died 108 00:07:42,956 --> 00:07:45,996 Speaker 1: in the fighting where they died of starvation. They died 109 00:07:45,996 --> 00:07:50,316 Speaker 1: of infection and of exhaustion. They fell into minds, they 110 00:07:50,316 --> 00:07:54,836 Speaker 1: were shot, they died of poison, gas terrified. There is 111 00:07:54,956 --> 00:07:58,636 Speaker 1: nothing I hated more than that horse scream, McCray wrote home, 112 00:07:59,556 --> 00:08:03,036 Speaker 1: Bonfire's leg got infected. McCray was there to treat men, 113 00:08:03,596 --> 00:08:07,076 Speaker 1: but he began mending animals. Somewhere along the way he 114 00:08:07,116 --> 00:08:09,836 Speaker 1: acquired a dog. He wrote. He ran to me and 115 00:08:09,956 --> 00:08:13,316 Speaker 1: pressed his head hard against my leg. He named him Fleabag. 116 00:08:13,876 --> 00:08:16,236 Speaker 1: He wrote his poem, which went on to become the 117 00:08:16,276 --> 00:08:19,636 Speaker 1: best known poem of the First World War, and McCray 118 00:08:19,716 --> 00:08:24,116 Speaker 1: became the war's best known poet. Then, in nineteen eighteen, 119 00:08:24,196 --> 00:08:27,916 Speaker 1: he contracted pneumonia and meningitis and died before peace came. 120 00:08:29,036 --> 00:08:32,836 Speaker 1: At his funeral, bonfire followed the casket, carrying in his 121 00:08:32,916 --> 00:08:39,196 Speaker 1: stirrups McCrae's empty boots. We are the dead. Short days 122 00:08:39,196 --> 00:08:45,076 Speaker 1: ago we lived, felt dull, saw sunset glow, loved and 123 00:08:45,156 --> 00:08:54,716 Speaker 1: were loved, and now we lie in flanders Fields. I 124 00:08:54,756 --> 00:08:58,036 Speaker 1: can't see that anyone's ever made this claim before, but 125 00:08:58,236 --> 00:09:02,156 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure Doctor John McCrae was the inspiration for 126 00:09:02,196 --> 00:09:06,396 Speaker 1: the character of doctor John Doolittle, a character who was 127 00:09:06,396 --> 00:09:10,436 Speaker 1: created by another soldier at flanders Field, a brit named 128 00:09:10,516 --> 00:09:14,636 Speaker 1: Hugh Lofting. Lofting served in the Irish Guards, and he 129 00:09:14,716 --> 00:09:18,276 Speaker 1: too wrote and spoke about animals just the same way 130 00:09:18,356 --> 00:09:22,396 Speaker 1: McCray had. Certain horses that were attached to your own company. 131 00:09:22,796 --> 00:09:26,636 Speaker 1: You became very fonder. It upset Hugh Lofting that the 132 00:09:26,676 --> 00:09:30,276 Speaker 1: horses were left to die in flanders Field. There was 133 00:09:30,396 --> 00:09:34,356 Speaker 1: very little you could do. Nearly all the horses that 134 00:09:34,396 --> 00:09:37,076 Speaker 1: were injured had to be shot. If we were as 135 00:09:37,076 --> 00:09:39,996 Speaker 1: far behind and medicine for ourselves as we were apparently 136 00:09:40,036 --> 00:09:43,196 Speaker 1: for our beasts of burden, we would go around shooting 137 00:09:43,236 --> 00:09:46,356 Speaker 1: all of our men. Lofting was supposed to be writing 138 00:09:46,436 --> 00:09:48,836 Speaker 1: letters home from the front to his very little children, 139 00:09:49,796 --> 00:09:53,196 Speaker 1: but what could he possibly write about? Everything was horrible, 140 00:09:54,116 --> 00:09:57,796 Speaker 1: So instead he began drawing pictures and writing his children's 141 00:09:57,836 --> 00:10:04,076 Speaker 1: stories about animals. Here are some animals playing ring a 142 00:10:04,156 --> 00:10:09,836 Speaker 1: ring of roses, Peter Piglett, Timothy Turtle, Frederick Fish, Daniel Dog, 143 00:10:10,276 --> 00:10:14,916 Speaker 1: Miss Catherine Cat, Miss Deborah Duck, Miss Melissent, Mouse, Master 144 00:10:15,076 --> 00:10:18,476 Speaker 1: Teddy Bear, and Squire Squill. They have all been to 145 00:10:18,516 --> 00:10:23,716 Speaker 1: the donkey's birthday party and have been enjoying themselves very much. Meanwhile, 146 00:10:23,796 --> 00:10:27,756 Speaker 1: at the front, watching those horses suffer in the field, 147 00:10:28,516 --> 00:10:31,476 Speaker 1: he kept thinking about them, and then it occurred to 148 00:10:31,516 --> 00:10:35,196 Speaker 1: me that, of course, to treat a horse properly, we 149 00:10:35,276 --> 00:10:38,436 Speaker 1: would have to have horse language. And then it occurred 150 00:10:38,436 --> 00:10:40,476 Speaker 1: to me that, of course, to be a good animal 151 00:10:40,556 --> 00:10:44,796 Speaker 1: doctor required a very much higher order of intelligence than 152 00:10:44,836 --> 00:10:48,036 Speaker 1: it did to be a human doctor. In one of 153 00:10:48,116 --> 00:10:52,116 Speaker 1: Laughting's letters home, he invented a fictional character, a man, 154 00:10:52,956 --> 00:10:58,076 Speaker 1: the Story of Doctor Doolittle. Once upon a time, many 155 00:10:58,156 --> 00:11:02,556 Speaker 1: years ago, when our grandfathers were little children, there was 156 00:11:02,596 --> 00:11:10,996 Speaker 1: a doctor and his name was Duelittle. The name, well, Doolittle, 157 00:11:11,396 --> 00:11:14,516 Speaker 1: was Lofting's nickname for his son Colin, who was lazy 158 00:11:15,036 --> 00:11:19,236 Speaker 1: Dolittle get it. But the character he, I'm pretty sure 159 00:11:19,436 --> 00:11:22,996 Speaker 1: was inspired by John McCray m d. The first patient 160 00:11:23,116 --> 00:11:25,876 Speaker 1: doctor Dolittle treats is a horse who's going blind in 161 00:11:25,916 --> 00:11:29,916 Speaker 1: one eye. The doctor gives him spectacles. I think Bonfire 162 00:11:29,916 --> 00:11:33,636 Speaker 1: would have liked that. Hugh Lofting was wounded and left 163 00:11:33,636 --> 00:11:37,116 Speaker 1: the service. He moved with his family to Killingworth, Connecticut, 164 00:11:37,156 --> 00:11:40,476 Speaker 1: a little farming town, where he kept writing about doctor Doolittle. 165 00:11:41,036 --> 00:11:43,716 Speaker 1: He lived in a little town called Puddleby on the 166 00:11:43,756 --> 00:11:47,876 Speaker 1: marsh All. The folks young and old knew him well 167 00:11:47,916 --> 00:11:51,796 Speaker 1: by sight. In nineteen twenty Lofting published a book, The 168 00:11:51,916 --> 00:11:55,156 Speaker 1: Story of Doctor Doolittle, the first in a long series. 169 00:11:56,076 --> 00:12:00,356 Speaker 1: One day, doctor Dolittle's parrot Polynesia scolds the doctor. He's 170 00:12:00,396 --> 00:12:04,036 Speaker 1: a medical doctor, not a veterinarian. Remember about how stupid 171 00:12:04,076 --> 00:12:08,676 Speaker 1: people are? People make me sick. I think they're so wonderful. 172 00:12:09,116 --> 00:12:11,796 Speaker 1: A vote has been going on now for thousands of years, 173 00:12:11,996 --> 00:12:14,796 Speaker 1: hasn't it? And the only thing in an animal language 174 00:12:14,836 --> 00:12:17,316 Speaker 1: the people have learned to understand is that when a 175 00:12:17,396 --> 00:12:24,236 Speaker 1: door quakes his tail, he means I'm glad. I happen 176 00:12:24,276 --> 00:12:26,556 Speaker 1: to have a very good friend who writes children's books 177 00:12:26,556 --> 00:12:29,036 Speaker 1: and who lives in a little farming town in Connecticut, 178 00:12:29,236 --> 00:12:33,156 Speaker 1: just like Hugh Lofting. Her name's lis Broach. She's magic 179 00:12:33,196 --> 00:12:36,596 Speaker 1: with animals. Actually, I believe she is my dog's very 180 00:12:36,636 --> 00:12:44,796 Speaker 1: favorite person. Oh oh my god, this is Ben. So 181 00:12:44,836 --> 00:12:46,636 Speaker 1: I asked Elsa if she'd be willing to join me 182 00:12:46,716 --> 00:12:50,436 Speaker 1: and Ben on a search for Doctor Doolittle, because Lofting 183 00:12:50,476 --> 00:12:52,916 Speaker 1: wound up publishing nearly a dozen do Little books in 184 00:12:52,956 --> 00:12:55,756 Speaker 1: his lifetime. And I wondered if there wasn't some magic 185 00:12:55,836 --> 00:12:58,876 Speaker 1: about the town of Killingworth that it helped Lofting, an 186 00:12:58,996 --> 00:13:02,836 Speaker 1: Mit trained civil engineer, hold onto the belief that animals 187 00:13:02,836 --> 00:13:06,756 Speaker 1: have minds and souls. She's a little trueman. She had 188 00:13:06,796 --> 00:13:09,596 Speaker 1: a boxer growing up in Oh yeah, oh yeah, he's 189 00:13:09,636 --> 00:13:19,196 Speaker 1: a foxy little I've known at least forever. We go 190 00:13:19,236 --> 00:13:21,716 Speaker 1: on writing retreats with our friend Jane. We walk in 191 00:13:21,756 --> 00:13:23,556 Speaker 1: the woods with our dogs and talk about the books 192 00:13:23,556 --> 00:13:26,396 Speaker 1: we're writing. I don't know anybody who's thought more carefully 193 00:13:26,436 --> 00:13:30,796 Speaker 1: about children's stories involving talking animals than at Lease. My 194 00:13:30,876 --> 00:13:34,236 Speaker 1: favorite of Elise's books is called Masterpiece. It's about a boy, James, 195 00:13:34,436 --> 00:13:37,796 Speaker 1: and a beatle named Marvin. There's a chapter book series 196 00:13:37,836 --> 00:13:40,636 Speaker 1: two based on the same characters. In one story, they 197 00:13:40,676 --> 00:13:43,676 Speaker 1: go to the country with Marvin's cousin, Elaine, another Beetle. 198 00:13:44,196 --> 00:13:47,116 Speaker 1: They go to a town just like Killingworth. Later on, 199 00:13:47,156 --> 00:13:49,636 Speaker 1: I asked Elise to read a little bit of the story. 200 00:13:50,356 --> 00:13:53,076 Speaker 1: Elaine and Marvin sit on the rail of the fence 201 00:13:53,236 --> 00:13:58,716 Speaker 1: in the warm sun, watching the animals. Isn't this nice? Marvin? 202 00:13:58,716 --> 00:14:01,756 Speaker 1: Elaine asks, don't you think it would be fun to 203 00:14:01,836 --> 00:14:06,356 Speaker 1: live here? All around them is the country, the big fields, 204 00:14:06,636 --> 00:14:11,036 Speaker 1: the rushing creek, fences and trees, and wide blue sky. 205 00:14:12,036 --> 00:14:15,836 Speaker 1: It's so different from the city. It is quiet, it 206 00:14:15,996 --> 00:14:22,596 Speaker 1: is green, it is full of animals, not people. In 207 00:14:22,676 --> 00:14:26,196 Speaker 1: Elisa's books, Marvin and Elaine, the Beatles, can understand everything 208 00:14:26,276 --> 00:14:30,556 Speaker 1: James the boy says, but James can't understand them. So 209 00:14:30,716 --> 00:14:32,716 Speaker 1: my point was just that I wanted kids to look 210 00:14:32,716 --> 00:14:34,956 Speaker 1: at all beetles and think, oh, you know, they may 211 00:14:34,956 --> 00:14:36,556 Speaker 1: be understanding what I say, and they may have these 212 00:14:36,676 --> 00:14:39,636 Speaker 1: rich family relationships, and you know they may be afraid 213 00:14:39,836 --> 00:14:43,396 Speaker 1: or the way that animals actually are. So I didn't 214 00:14:43,396 --> 00:14:45,716 Speaker 1: want to have kids think oh, that was just a 215 00:14:45,756 --> 00:14:47,836 Speaker 1: magic beatle. I wanted them to be able to see 216 00:14:47,876 --> 00:14:52,836 Speaker 1: the world, you know what I mean. Our first up 217 00:14:52,916 --> 00:14:55,596 Speaker 1: was the killing Worth Public Library. Elise and I talked 218 00:14:55,596 --> 00:14:58,476 Speaker 1: to one of the librarians, Tammy Eustace. I asked her 219 00:14:58,476 --> 00:15:00,196 Speaker 1: if there was anything about the town that made it 220 00:15:00,196 --> 00:15:02,156 Speaker 1: the kind of place you might want to live if 221 00:15:02,156 --> 00:15:04,556 Speaker 1: you were in the business of writing stories about animals. 222 00:15:05,196 --> 00:15:07,516 Speaker 1: I think it's very much the place. I've read a 223 00:15:07,556 --> 00:15:10,516 Speaker 1: lot of the history books, history essays, and people are 224 00:15:10,516 --> 00:15:15,236 Speaker 1: always writing about their farm animals or you know, being 225 00:15:15,356 --> 00:15:19,076 Speaker 1: even being on social media now everybody is posting pictures 226 00:15:19,076 --> 00:15:22,316 Speaker 1: of their chickens, and you know, a dog gets lost 227 00:15:22,356 --> 00:15:25,236 Speaker 1: and the town turns out to try and find the 228 00:15:25,276 --> 00:15:28,516 Speaker 1: dog or the cat. They've they've grown so much, would 229 00:15:28,556 --> 00:15:33,476 Speaker 1: be proud of what's happened here. I'd hope the library 230 00:15:33,556 --> 00:15:36,316 Speaker 1: might have some of Hugh Lofting stuff or a statue 231 00:15:36,516 --> 00:15:39,836 Speaker 1: something they didn't, but it turns out that Tammy, who 232 00:15:39,876 --> 00:15:43,316 Speaker 1: didn't grow up here, is known for her way with animals, 233 00:15:43,316 --> 00:15:47,076 Speaker 1: and everybody actually called me doctor Doolittle in college. That 234 00:15:47,196 --> 00:15:51,356 Speaker 1: was my nickname. So small world. We got back in 235 00:15:51,356 --> 00:15:54,436 Speaker 1: the car and headed for the Killingworth Historical Society. I 236 00:15:54,476 --> 00:15:59,036 Speaker 1: wondered if maybe they would have Lofting's papers, diaries, photographs, something. 237 00:15:59,836 --> 00:16:04,796 Speaker 1: It's housed in a nineteenth century farmhouse. So sweet. Unfortunately 238 00:16:04,876 --> 00:16:09,676 Speaker 1: they did not have Hugh Lofting's papers, but visire halts 239 00:16:11,516 --> 00:16:18,796 Speaker 1: these beautiful silly you know. They had Hugh Lofting's top hats. 240 00:16:19,436 --> 00:16:21,716 Speaker 1: And the curator also showed us a binder full of 241 00:16:21,836 --> 00:16:25,556 Speaker 1: Lofting memorabilia that he'd collected over the years, including a 242 00:16:25,596 --> 00:16:28,076 Speaker 1: photo of a historical marker that used to be out 243 00:16:28,076 --> 00:16:31,236 Speaker 1: in the front of Lofting's old house. It says Doctor 244 00:16:31,396 --> 00:16:34,916 Speaker 1: Little's House, built seventeen sixty one, owned in the nineteen 245 00:16:34,916 --> 00:16:37,556 Speaker 1: twenties by Hugh Lofting, author of the children's book series. 246 00:16:37,596 --> 00:16:39,476 Speaker 1: It was here that his stories came to life and 247 00:16:39,516 --> 00:16:43,836 Speaker 1: his animals learned to talk. Lofting's old house. I figured 248 00:16:43,916 --> 00:16:46,276 Speaker 1: maybe there'd be something there, tucked away in an attic. 249 00:16:46,796 --> 00:16:49,276 Speaker 1: One more stop on the drive, Lisa and I got 250 00:16:49,316 --> 00:16:52,876 Speaker 1: to talking more about animals and children's books. There's a distinction, 251 00:16:52,916 --> 00:16:55,876 Speaker 1: I think in children's literature between the books that are 252 00:16:56,196 --> 00:17:00,236 Speaker 1: entirely an animal world, um, you know, like the Beatrix 253 00:17:00,276 --> 00:17:04,236 Speaker 1: Potter books or um. Trying to think of other examples, 254 00:17:05,116 --> 00:17:07,396 Speaker 1: you know, honestly, it goes back to like Esop's Fables, 255 00:17:07,516 --> 00:17:10,756 Speaker 1: right where it's just an animal world that is animated 256 00:17:10,916 --> 00:17:14,556 Speaker 1: by human emotions or human values or whatever it is. 257 00:17:14,596 --> 00:17:17,036 Speaker 1: And then there are these other stories that involve human 258 00:17:17,076 --> 00:17:25,196 Speaker 1: animal relationships. Animal fables, stories about talking animals go back 259 00:17:25,196 --> 00:17:28,436 Speaker 1: to antiquity, but the so called Golden Age of children's 260 00:17:28,476 --> 00:17:32,876 Speaker 1: literature ran from eighteen seventy to nineteen thirty. Beatrix Potter 261 00:17:33,036 --> 00:17:36,196 Speaker 1: a a Milne, that whole late late Victorian sort of 262 00:17:36,276 --> 00:17:40,916 Speaker 1: tweet sensibility. All of that, which includes Doctor Doolittle stories, 263 00:17:41,316 --> 00:17:44,436 Speaker 1: came out of changing ideas about animals, and this itself 264 00:17:44,436 --> 00:17:46,476 Speaker 1: had to do with what scientists have been doing to 265 00:17:46,556 --> 00:17:51,196 Speaker 1: animals and laboratories. So hold onto your top hat while 266 00:17:51,196 --> 00:17:55,276 Speaker 1: we make a brutal last archive historical detour, a hard turn, 267 00:17:55,596 --> 00:18:07,396 Speaker 1: not so much historically but emotionally. After the break in 268 00:18:07,476 --> 00:18:12,876 Speaker 1: the seventeenth century, rants the philosopher Renee Descartes argued that 269 00:18:12,956 --> 00:18:17,476 Speaker 1: animals have no rational souls and no minds. They can't 270 00:18:17,516 --> 00:18:22,876 Speaker 1: experience pain. They were basically just machines, Descartes said. Meanwhile, 271 00:18:22,876 --> 00:18:29,036 Speaker 1: over in England, William Harvey dissected animals living animals without anesthesia. 272 00:18:29,196 --> 00:18:33,476 Speaker 1: This is called vivisection. Harvey discovered the circulation of the blood, 273 00:18:33,836 --> 00:18:37,956 Speaker 1: a major discovery. His experiments were brutal and cruel, but 274 00:18:38,036 --> 00:18:40,796 Speaker 1: if you didn't think animals had souls or felt pain, 275 00:18:41,516 --> 00:18:45,996 Speaker 1: then maybe those experiments were less cruel. Vivisection became common 276 00:18:46,076 --> 00:18:50,116 Speaker 1: during the Scientific Revolution. Often it was done on dogs. 277 00:18:50,716 --> 00:18:54,076 Speaker 1: The experiments took hours, sometimes it was days before the 278 00:18:54,116 --> 00:18:59,036 Speaker 1: animals died. A century later, people finally started saying vivisection 279 00:18:59,316 --> 00:19:03,036 Speaker 1: had to stop, partly because another philosopher came along and said, 280 00:19:03,516 --> 00:19:06,956 Speaker 1: oh yeah, Descartes, he was just entirely wrong. In the 281 00:19:06,996 --> 00:19:11,196 Speaker 1: seventeen eighties, Jeremy Bentam insisted about animals, the question is 282 00:19:11,236 --> 00:19:16,356 Speaker 1: not can they reason nor can they talk? But can 283 00:19:16,396 --> 00:19:20,396 Speaker 1: they suffer? I mean, obviously they can suffer. Thus was 284 00:19:20,436 --> 00:19:24,196 Speaker 1: born the animal welfare movement in England. The first animal 285 00:19:24,236 --> 00:19:28,116 Speaker 1: welfare legislation was passed by Parliament in eighteen twenty two. 286 00:19:28,836 --> 00:19:32,316 Speaker 1: In eighteen twenty four, reformers founded the Society for the 287 00:19:32,356 --> 00:19:37,116 Speaker 1: Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. Animal welfare advocates especially wanted 288 00:19:37,116 --> 00:19:41,276 Speaker 1: to outlaw vivisection, which was still taking place. That movement 289 00:19:41,316 --> 00:19:44,636 Speaker 1: was led by an Irish suffragist named Francis power Cobb. 290 00:19:45,476 --> 00:19:48,636 Speaker 1: It also, to a degree, enjoyed the support of Charles Darwin. 291 00:19:49,636 --> 00:19:52,876 Speaker 1: Darwin loved dogs. He devoted a chunk of the Descent 292 00:19:52,956 --> 00:19:56,196 Speaker 1: of Man to them. In eighteen seventy one. He wrote, 293 00:19:56,596 --> 00:19:58,916 Speaker 1: it is curious to speculate on the feelings of a 294 00:19:58,956 --> 00:20:01,756 Speaker 1: dog who will rest peacefully for hours in a room 295 00:20:01,876 --> 00:20:04,836 Speaker 1: with his master or any of the family, without the 296 00:20:04,916 --> 00:20:07,756 Speaker 1: least notice being taken of him, but if left for 297 00:20:07,796 --> 00:20:12,196 Speaker 1: a short time by himself, barques or howls dismally. What 298 00:20:12,316 --> 00:20:16,836 Speaker 1: staggered Darwin was that this love extended even to his torturer. 299 00:20:17,156 --> 00:20:20,116 Speaker 1: The vivisectionist who nailed a dog to a table, cut 300 00:20:20,196 --> 00:20:22,796 Speaker 1: him up, left him there all night to suffer, and 301 00:20:22,876 --> 00:20:25,556 Speaker 1: went back to do more cutting in the morning. As 302 00:20:25,636 --> 00:20:29,796 Speaker 1: Darwin wrote, everyone has heard of the dog suffering under vivisection, 303 00:20:30,276 --> 00:20:34,156 Speaker 1: who licked the hand of the operator. This man, unless 304 00:20:34,156 --> 00:20:36,796 Speaker 1: he had a heart of stone, must have felt remorse 305 00:20:37,076 --> 00:20:42,396 Speaker 1: to the last hour of his life. Darwin helped draft 306 00:20:42,436 --> 00:20:46,076 Speaker 1: an anti vivisection bill. He also testified before a parliamentary 307 00:20:46,116 --> 00:20:49,876 Speaker 1: commission charged with investigating the practice. A version of that 308 00:20:49,956 --> 00:20:53,436 Speaker 1: legislation passed in eighteen seventy six, but it continued to 309 00:20:53,476 --> 00:20:57,236 Speaker 1: be a source of debate. Americans had gotten involved by now, too, 310 00:20:57,396 --> 00:21:01,396 Speaker 1: founding the American Anti Vivisection Society in eighteen eighty three, 311 00:21:01,956 --> 00:21:05,076 Speaker 1: three years before Hugh Lofting was born. By the time 312 00:21:05,116 --> 00:21:07,996 Speaker 1: of the First World War, when Lofting wrote those letters 313 00:21:08,036 --> 00:21:11,036 Speaker 1: home from the Western Front, the Royal Society for the 314 00:21:11,036 --> 00:21:13,956 Speaker 1: Prevention of Cruelty to Animals was working hard to save 315 00:21:14,036 --> 00:21:17,596 Speaker 1: war horses, had established a fund for sick and wounded horses, 316 00:21:17,756 --> 00:21:22,596 Speaker 1: had set up horse ambulances, had built horse hospitals. Doctor 317 00:21:22,636 --> 00:21:25,716 Speaker 1: Doolittle came out of all of this when Lofting began thinking, 318 00:21:26,476 --> 00:21:29,276 Speaker 1: maybe the best way to treat animals would be to 319 00:21:29,436 --> 00:21:35,636 Speaker 1: learn their languages. Talk to the animals their languages. Maybe 320 00:21:35,636 --> 00:21:40,916 Speaker 1: take an animal degree. I'd study elephant and eagle, buff 321 00:21:41,236 --> 00:21:47,476 Speaker 1: and eagle, alligator, guinea pig, and flee. Chances are you've 322 00:21:47,516 --> 00:21:50,516 Speaker 1: never read The Doctor to Little Books. Maybe you've seen 323 00:21:50,556 --> 00:21:53,276 Speaker 1: that old Rex Harris and Musical though, or the lousy 324 00:21:53,356 --> 00:21:56,676 Speaker 1: Eddie Murphy movies or the Robber Downey Junior one. Believe me, 325 00:21:56,716 --> 00:21:59,596 Speaker 1: they're all terrible, But the original stories from the nineteen 326 00:21:59,636 --> 00:22:03,756 Speaker 1: twenties are full of fantastic elements, like the Pushmi Pullyu, 327 00:22:03,956 --> 00:22:06,756 Speaker 1: a lama with a head at both ends. There are 328 00:22:06,756 --> 00:22:10,196 Speaker 1: many voyages, there are many adventures. The Doctor to Little 329 00:22:10,196 --> 00:22:13,956 Speaker 1: Books are a little like superhero comics. Still, Dolittle is 330 00:22:14,036 --> 00:22:17,716 Speaker 1: older than Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. Those characters were 331 00:22:17,716 --> 00:22:21,436 Speaker 1: created in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties. Doolittle was 332 00:22:21,476 --> 00:22:25,356 Speaker 1: created in the nineteenteens and nineteen twenties. That means there's 333 00:22:25,396 --> 00:22:28,516 Speaker 1: all kinds of datedness to the stories, including a lot 334 00:22:28,556 --> 00:22:33,196 Speaker 1: of truly outrageously racist depictions of African and Indigenous peoples. 335 00:22:33,916 --> 00:22:36,516 Speaker 1: In spite of the fact that Lofting, a progressive and 336 00:22:36,596 --> 00:22:39,596 Speaker 1: a pacifist who wrote for the Nation, was an ardent 337 00:22:39,636 --> 00:22:43,796 Speaker 1: opponent of racism and of imperialism too. In a nineteen 338 00:22:43,836 --> 00:22:46,876 Speaker 1: twenty four article in the Nation, for instance, he damned 339 00:22:47,116 --> 00:22:50,356 Speaker 1: race hatred and urged the writers of children's books to 340 00:22:50,396 --> 00:22:54,396 Speaker 1: get away from the bigoted misrepresentation of people of different races. 341 00:22:57,076 --> 00:22:59,556 Speaker 1: Back in Connecticut, Elise and I were just pulling up 342 00:22:59,556 --> 00:23:01,836 Speaker 1: to the house where Lofting used to live, a yellow 343 00:23:01,876 --> 00:23:05,076 Speaker 1: farmhouse with a fence out front. The house he lived 344 00:23:05,076 --> 00:23:07,836 Speaker 1: in on the edge of town was quite small, but 345 00:23:07,996 --> 00:23:11,196 Speaker 1: his garden was any large, and he had a wide 346 00:23:11,236 --> 00:23:15,756 Speaker 1: long and stone seats and weeping willows hanging over. It 347 00:23:15,836 --> 00:23:19,156 Speaker 1: turns out a doctor lives there now, Caroline, an emergency 348 00:23:19,236 --> 00:23:21,796 Speaker 1: room doctor. She and her son Ben answered the door 349 00:23:21,956 --> 00:23:25,116 Speaker 1: and invited us around back for iced tea. We're gonna 350 00:23:25,116 --> 00:23:28,356 Speaker 1: stay outside. That's fine, both multitude of reasons, of course, 351 00:23:28,476 --> 00:23:36,596 Speaker 1: that's fine. Not always Lofting he always had three or 352 00:23:36,636 --> 00:23:39,636 Speaker 1: four dogs around at his house. Caroline and Ben have two, 353 00:23:40,116 --> 00:23:44,876 Speaker 1: two German Shepherds, rescue dogs. We could hear them inside howling. 354 00:23:45,476 --> 00:23:50,196 Speaker 1: They harmonize too, and um, what do you think they're 355 00:23:50,236 --> 00:23:53,996 Speaker 1: trying to tell us? They just they want to come out, 356 00:23:54,156 --> 00:23:58,636 Speaker 1: They want to say hi. They're crazy. I mean they 357 00:23:58,636 --> 00:24:02,356 Speaker 1: won't they won't hurt you, but they're crazy. I know 358 00:24:02,436 --> 00:24:05,676 Speaker 1: all about those crazy dogs. Sadly they didn't come out 359 00:24:05,716 --> 00:24:09,556 Speaker 1: to join us. Carolin hadn't known much about too when 360 00:24:09,556 --> 00:24:11,956 Speaker 1: she bought the house, but the spirit of the place 361 00:24:12,476 --> 00:24:16,036 Speaker 1: had been hard to resist. We would need a party, 362 00:24:16,356 --> 00:24:20,196 Speaker 1: a big neighborhood party. And made little push meeep never 363 00:24:20,276 --> 00:24:23,836 Speaker 1: mind who was then a little plastic horses and cut 364 00:24:23,876 --> 00:24:27,436 Speaker 1: them in half, really include them together for glue their 365 00:24:27,476 --> 00:24:35,956 Speaker 1: heads to play around still at the house. Didn't come 366 00:24:35,996 --> 00:24:39,476 Speaker 1: with any secret stash of Hugh Lofting's papers, but Carolyn 367 00:24:39,556 --> 00:24:42,076 Speaker 1: did end up collecting a set of first Editions, each 368 00:24:42,156 --> 00:24:45,236 Speaker 1: illustrated by Lofting. She said she'd planned to leave them 369 00:24:45,236 --> 00:24:49,396 Speaker 1: in the house and someday she moves out. We went 370 00:24:49,436 --> 00:24:52,156 Speaker 1: her on the front to see the homemade painted wooden sign, 371 00:24:52,476 --> 00:24:56,396 Speaker 1: a new one that Caroline's kids had updated. My brother 372 00:24:56,436 --> 00:25:00,676 Speaker 1: made this one. Um so it says Doctor Dolittle House 373 00:25:00,956 --> 00:25:05,076 Speaker 1: Circus seventeen sixty one, owned by author Hugh Lofting eighteen 374 00:25:05,116 --> 00:25:09,156 Speaker 1: eighty six to nineteen forty seven. That's his life in 375 00:25:09,236 --> 00:25:11,756 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties. This is where doctor Dolittle came to life 376 00:25:11,756 --> 00:25:15,676 Speaker 1: and learned to talk to his animals. The old one said, 377 00:25:15,676 --> 00:25:23,636 Speaker 1: where his animals learned to talk rated an issue or correction, 378 00:25:23,716 --> 00:25:31,396 Speaker 1: You just uplogether. I loved that the updating of the 379 00:25:31,436 --> 00:25:35,076 Speaker 1: historical record correcting it. The animals didn't learn to talk 380 00:25:35,116 --> 00:25:38,476 Speaker 1: to us. People learned to listen to the animals, and 381 00:25:38,556 --> 00:25:42,396 Speaker 1: it's true. Learning animal language was Doctor doolittle superpower, not 382 00:25:42,556 --> 00:25:46,516 Speaker 1: talking to them. The Doctor Dolittle stories date to the 383 00:25:46,556 --> 00:25:50,196 Speaker 1: era of animal welfare, when reformers were fighting against cruelty 384 00:25:50,236 --> 00:25:54,516 Speaker 1: to animals, trying to end vivisection. Today there are different fights. 385 00:25:54,716 --> 00:25:58,396 Speaker 1: It's an age of mass extinction and climate catastrophe. There 386 00:25:58,396 --> 00:26:01,476 Speaker 1: are other questions to ask about humans relationship to animals, 387 00:26:01,956 --> 00:26:05,316 Speaker 1: including whether sometime soon there will be hardly any of 388 00:26:05,356 --> 00:26:10,156 Speaker 1: them left. Animal cognition is like any other signiance. It's 389 00:26:10,196 --> 00:26:13,196 Speaker 1: a means of producing knowledge, but it's also freighted with 390 00:26:13,196 --> 00:26:17,196 Speaker 1: an almost existential burden, the burden of this moment. If 391 00:26:17,236 --> 00:26:20,916 Speaker 1: we could understand better what animals know, would we find 392 00:26:20,956 --> 00:26:31,156 Speaker 1: better ways of sharing the planet with them. Ben and 393 00:26:31,196 --> 00:26:33,796 Speaker 1: I have gone to Killingworth, Connecticut with a children's book 394 00:26:33,836 --> 00:26:37,076 Speaker 1: writer a lease Broach, to search for doctor Doolittle, who 395 00:26:37,116 --> 00:26:40,516 Speaker 1: could talk to the animals. I came away from that trip, though, 396 00:26:40,956 --> 00:26:43,996 Speaker 1: wondering what had happened to that idea, to an interest 397 00:26:44,156 --> 00:26:47,596 Speaker 1: not in teaching animals to talk. But in listening to them, 398 00:26:47,836 --> 00:26:53,036 Speaker 1: I could talk to the animals. Just imagine it chatting 399 00:26:53,036 --> 00:27:00,116 Speaker 1: to a chimp in chimpanzee chatting to a cheetah. What. 400 00:27:03,916 --> 00:27:05,956 Speaker 1: Right around the time Hugh Lofting was writing the first 401 00:27:05,996 --> 00:27:09,996 Speaker 1: Doctor Dolittle Stories, the scientific study of animals was changing too. 402 00:27:11,436 --> 00:27:15,276 Speaker 1: In nineteen oh eight, Margaret Floy Washburn published a book 403 00:27:15,276 --> 00:27:19,116 Speaker 1: called The Animal Mind. She was a psychologist and her 404 00:27:19,156 --> 00:27:22,556 Speaker 1: work involved trying to imagine the minds of animals. For instance, 405 00:27:22,636 --> 00:27:25,676 Speaker 1: we talk about an angry wasp, or like when we 406 00:27:25,716 --> 00:27:29,636 Speaker 1: say someone as mad as a hornet, Washburn wrote, anger 407 00:27:29,676 --> 00:27:33,076 Speaker 1: in our own experience is largely composed of sensations of 408 00:27:33,156 --> 00:27:37,796 Speaker 1: quickened heartbeat, of altered breathing, of muscular tension, of increased 409 00:27:37,796 --> 00:27:41,436 Speaker 1: blood pressure in the head and face. The circulation of 410 00:27:41,436 --> 00:27:44,996 Speaker 1: a wasp is fundamentally different from that of any vertebrate. 411 00:27:45,476 --> 00:27:48,316 Speaker 1: The wasp does not breathe through its lungs. It wears 412 00:27:48,316 --> 00:27:51,116 Speaker 1: its skeleton on the outside, and it has the muscles 413 00:27:51,156 --> 00:27:54,596 Speaker 1: attached to the inside of the skeleton. What is anger 414 00:27:54,716 --> 00:27:59,356 Speaker 1: like in the wasps consciousness? We can form no adequate 415 00:27:59,436 --> 00:28:02,876 Speaker 1: idea of it. Even as she was making that point, 416 00:28:03,196 --> 00:28:06,836 Speaker 1: a new kind of psychology was on the rise. Behaviorism 417 00:28:07,156 --> 00:28:10,556 Speaker 1: an attempt to discipline the science of psychology to make 418 00:28:10,596 --> 00:28:13,916 Speaker 1: it more accountable to experimentation, more of a lab science. 419 00:28:14,716 --> 00:28:17,876 Speaker 1: But behaviorism also had inside it an old idea, the 420 00:28:17,956 --> 00:28:23,276 Speaker 1: idea that non human animals are just machines. Behaviorists experimented. 421 00:28:23,316 --> 00:28:26,556 Speaker 1: They brought animals into buildings and caged them, and essentially 422 00:28:26,636 --> 00:28:31,796 Speaker 1: tortured them, not by vivisection, but by experiments so artificial 423 00:28:32,116 --> 00:28:36,276 Speaker 1: and painful and emotionally tortuous that one critic said that 424 00:28:36,396 --> 00:28:38,916 Speaker 1: if these experiments had been done on a person, it 425 00:28:38,956 --> 00:28:41,356 Speaker 1: would be like taking a living man in a coffin, 426 00:28:41,996 --> 00:28:45,116 Speaker 1: lowering him against his will, into the earth, and attempting 427 00:28:45,156 --> 00:28:49,676 Speaker 1: to deduce normal psychology from his conduct. With this device, 428 00:28:49,876 --> 00:28:52,356 Speaker 1: we can put a mild electric shock on the grid 429 00:28:52,396 --> 00:28:54,796 Speaker 1: on which the rat starts. You will see that it 430 00:28:54,836 --> 00:28:58,236 Speaker 1: supplies enough drive to produce a radical change in the 431 00:28:58,276 --> 00:29:01,676 Speaker 1: behavior of the satiated rat. He hits the bar, the 432 00:29:01,716 --> 00:29:06,196 Speaker 1: shot goes off, and he's reward. That approach lasted for 433 00:29:06,236 --> 00:29:10,196 Speaker 1: decades into the nineteen seventies and nineteen eighties, right around 434 00:29:10,196 --> 00:29:14,156 Speaker 1: when animal rights activists were challenging all kinds of animal testing. 435 00:29:15,316 --> 00:29:17,156 Speaker 1: But I was on the hunt for something new in 436 00:29:17,236 --> 00:29:21,276 Speaker 1: animal science, something doctor Doolittle had done in fiction and 437 00:29:21,436 --> 00:29:25,876 Speaker 1: Margaret Floyd Washburn had tried in real life. I was 438 00:29:25,916 --> 00:29:29,076 Speaker 1: interested in the kind of animal scientists who are studying 439 00:29:29,356 --> 00:29:33,676 Speaker 1: how animals think and communicate. I think it's this left 440 00:29:33,796 --> 00:29:36,516 Speaker 1: right here, see what these this break is your destination. 441 00:29:36,876 --> 00:29:39,756 Speaker 1: It says it's in there. The study of animal cognition 442 00:29:39,996 --> 00:29:42,716 Speaker 1: is just exploding right now. So I decided to seek 443 00:29:42,716 --> 00:29:46,436 Speaker 1: out one of its leading practitioners, a German scientist named 444 00:29:46,476 --> 00:29:49,836 Speaker 1: Yuliana Breuer, whose new book is called What Dogs Know. 445 00:29:51,356 --> 00:29:53,156 Speaker 1: To meet her, I had to go to Germany, to 446 00:29:53,196 --> 00:29:56,356 Speaker 1: a town I'd never been to before. Dogs, of course, 447 00:29:56,356 --> 00:30:00,276 Speaker 1: are famously good at finding places sniffing things out. I'm 448 00:30:00,356 --> 00:30:02,596 Speaker 1: terrible at this. So to help me out on my 449 00:30:02,636 --> 00:30:04,956 Speaker 1: trip to Germany, I took one of my kids. He's 450 00:30:04,996 --> 00:30:07,596 Speaker 1: studying German. Yeah, it says it on the sign right there, 451 00:30:08,036 --> 00:30:14,836 Speaker 1: Max Planck Institute for me. Okay, I figured at least 452 00:30:14,876 --> 00:30:22,876 Speaker 1: he could read the signs out loud mensch heights human Yeah, 453 00:30:22,956 --> 00:30:29,276 Speaker 1: human history. You're a stumped. The Max Plank Institute for 454 00:30:29,316 --> 00:30:31,676 Speaker 1: the Science of Human History sits on top of a 455 00:30:31,756 --> 00:30:34,316 Speaker 1: hill in the North German city of Yenna. It's a 456 00:30:34,356 --> 00:30:38,876 Speaker 1: cluster of buildings, sort of Walter Gropia style. Everything's connected 457 00:30:38,876 --> 00:30:41,956 Speaker 1: by cobbled paths. I think I had in mind that 458 00:30:41,996 --> 00:30:44,756 Speaker 1: we just follow the sound of barking, but the place 459 00:30:44,876 --> 00:30:47,396 Speaker 1: was dead silent, so we tried to follow a map 460 00:30:47,796 --> 00:30:51,556 Speaker 1: and read the signs using our eyes. A dog. A 461 00:30:51,636 --> 00:30:56,796 Speaker 1: dog would have just sniffed this place out. Hello, Sorry, 462 00:30:56,956 --> 00:31:01,676 Speaker 1: we're looking for Yule. The doglet would be like a 463 00:31:01,796 --> 00:31:07,116 Speaker 1: round corner in this building. Finally we found it, our clue, 464 00:31:07,356 --> 00:31:11,116 Speaker 1: a dog bowl outside the door. We stepped over the 465 00:31:11,156 --> 00:31:14,156 Speaker 1: dog bowl and Yuleiana Broyer let us inside to a 466 00:31:14,156 --> 00:31:18,716 Speaker 1: glass wild office overlooking the city. Broers this very no 467 00:31:18,716 --> 00:31:22,196 Speaker 1: nonsense sort of person, jeans, pull over, short hair. She 468 00:31:22,236 --> 00:31:24,956 Speaker 1: has my dream job. I kept thinking, that's pretty keen 469 00:31:24,956 --> 00:31:26,796 Speaker 1: to meet her dog, but she was nowhere to be 470 00:31:26,836 --> 00:31:30,196 Speaker 1: seen or heard my dogs. If someone came to visit, 471 00:31:30,436 --> 00:31:34,436 Speaker 1: there'd be no talking over their barking. This dog unseen 472 00:31:34,596 --> 00:31:38,236 Speaker 1: and unheard. Brower is a biologist who's interested in the 473 00:31:38,316 --> 00:31:42,316 Speaker 1: differences between humans and other animals. Technically, her field is 474 00:31:42,396 --> 00:31:46,836 Speaker 1: comparative psychology. The idea of comparative psychology has basically to 475 00:31:48,836 --> 00:31:54,356 Speaker 1: find similarities and differences between humans and animals. And you 476 00:31:54,476 --> 00:31:58,716 Speaker 1: can come from the psychological perspective than you are usually 477 00:31:58,716 --> 00:32:03,196 Speaker 1: more interested into the humans or what's special ah about 478 00:32:03,236 --> 00:32:06,036 Speaker 1: the human? Why are we different from animals? And we 479 00:32:06,076 --> 00:32:09,876 Speaker 1: are obviously, or you can also come from a more 480 00:32:09,996 --> 00:32:13,916 Speaker 1: biological way of thinking just to look at the similarities 481 00:32:13,916 --> 00:32:19,556 Speaker 1: and to look what cognitive skills do animals have, and 482 00:32:19,556 --> 00:32:24,956 Speaker 1: and let's say, to find the animals interesting in themselves. 483 00:32:25,676 --> 00:32:29,116 Speaker 1: Broyer didn't start out studying dogs. She started out studying 484 00:32:29,196 --> 00:32:33,236 Speaker 1: chimpanzees in an apouse at the Leipsig Zoo. And of 485 00:32:33,236 --> 00:32:36,156 Speaker 1: course they share a lot of skills with us, but 486 00:32:36,516 --> 00:32:40,876 Speaker 1: there are skills and where chimpanzees are really not not 487 00:32:40,996 --> 00:32:45,236 Speaker 1: good or where where you are surprised that they are 488 00:32:45,276 --> 00:32:49,476 Speaker 1: not doing well. And one topic there was a huge 489 00:32:49,476 --> 00:32:53,156 Speaker 1: topic when I started, actually was that chimpanzees do not 490 00:32:53,636 --> 00:32:56,436 Speaker 1: use a human pointing gesture. If I want to show 491 00:32:56,476 --> 00:32:58,676 Speaker 1: you something, the school bus, a cloud in the sky, 492 00:32:59,196 --> 00:33:01,796 Speaker 1: I'll point at it and you'll look where I'm pointing. 493 00:33:02,276 --> 00:33:06,076 Speaker 1: That's common knowledge, a universal human cognitive skill, a skill 494 00:33:06,156 --> 00:33:11,116 Speaker 1: you'd assume chimpanzees have because they're so closely related to us. 495 00:33:11,116 --> 00:33:14,956 Speaker 1: But strangely enough, chimpanzees do not do this. One day, 496 00:33:14,956 --> 00:33:17,556 Speaker 1: about twenty years ago in that zoo and Leipzig Brier 497 00:33:17,676 --> 00:33:20,436 Speaker 1: and her dissertation advisor, the whole lab, they're all talking 498 00:33:20,436 --> 00:33:23,996 Speaker 1: about this, and another graduate student says, yeah, but my 499 00:33:24,076 --> 00:33:27,796 Speaker 1: dog can do that. So they started testing dogs and yeah, 500 00:33:27,836 --> 00:33:30,316 Speaker 1: with dogs, you point at something, they look where you point, 501 00:33:30,516 --> 00:33:33,916 Speaker 1: no problem. But then it turned out that really even 502 00:33:33,996 --> 00:33:36,996 Speaker 1: hendread wolves cannot do it as as good as dogs, 503 00:33:37,036 --> 00:33:39,996 Speaker 1: or dogs are special. A laboratory and Hungary at the 504 00:33:40,116 --> 00:33:43,076 Speaker 1: very same time came up with that same result. I 505 00:33:43,116 --> 00:33:45,756 Speaker 1: think was that paper. The view on dogs changed a 506 00:33:45,796 --> 00:33:49,436 Speaker 1: lot because before, I mean my abiology professor would say, 507 00:33:49,436 --> 00:33:54,436 Speaker 1: our dogs they are somehow artificial, strange creatures, and they 508 00:33:54,436 --> 00:33:58,836 Speaker 1: are not as intelligent like wolves. The wolves are the 509 00:33:58,956 --> 00:34:02,156 Speaker 1: real animals, and dogs out something in between, something strange. 510 00:34:02,196 --> 00:34:05,476 Speaker 1: But then if you changed, because people thought, look, the 511 00:34:05,596 --> 00:34:11,116 Speaker 1: dog has a very very special kneed. So the ecological 512 00:34:11,276 --> 00:34:14,556 Speaker 1: niche of a dog is being with a human, and 513 00:34:14,596 --> 00:34:19,076 Speaker 1: that's why dogs have evolved very very special skills. Now 514 00:34:19,196 --> 00:34:21,676 Speaker 1: you might think, if you have a dog, yeah, this 515 00:34:21,716 --> 00:34:24,956 Speaker 1: isn't very surprising. I know, my dog looks where I point, 516 00:34:25,396 --> 00:34:28,916 Speaker 1: but you don't know that in any scientific sense for dogs, 517 00:34:28,956 --> 00:34:31,316 Speaker 1: we don't have that. We have this what you would 518 00:34:31,316 --> 00:34:35,036 Speaker 1: call common knowledge, and I assume that most of this 519 00:34:35,156 --> 00:34:37,796 Speaker 1: is what we can read in and common dog books 520 00:34:38,236 --> 00:34:42,036 Speaker 1: is correct, but we do not have studies about it. 521 00:34:42,756 --> 00:34:45,356 Speaker 1: So they started doing those studies. The more you think 522 00:34:45,356 --> 00:34:48,996 Speaker 1: about that pointing situation, the more you investigate it, the 523 00:34:49,116 --> 00:34:53,276 Speaker 1: more striking the finding brower. Another dog scientists around the 524 00:34:53,276 --> 00:34:56,956 Speaker 1: world are writing a kind of codebook decoding the behavior 525 00:34:56,956 --> 00:35:00,036 Speaker 1: of dogs. There are a thousand reasons to do this research, 526 00:35:00,196 --> 00:35:03,396 Speaker 1: but the biggest is dogs are the first animal humans 527 00:35:03,436 --> 00:35:08,116 Speaker 1: ever domesticated. Why out of all possible animals did humans 528 00:35:08,156 --> 00:35:11,356 Speaker 1: domesticate dogs first. One theory has it that it's because 529 00:35:11,396 --> 00:35:14,596 Speaker 1: dogs have such an incredibly sophisticated sense of smell and 530 00:35:14,716 --> 00:35:17,676 Speaker 1: we have such a worthless one. It's a thing humans needed, 531 00:35:18,316 --> 00:35:21,636 Speaker 1: but you do not know much about the sense of smells. 532 00:35:21,636 --> 00:35:27,796 Speaker 1: It's sometimes really amazing. What's funny to me is doctor 533 00:35:27,836 --> 00:35:31,436 Speaker 1: Doolittle had this all figured out, at least in his imagination. 534 00:35:32,156 --> 00:35:34,116 Speaker 1: My favorite scene in all the books is when the 535 00:35:34,196 --> 00:35:37,556 Speaker 1: doctor is talking with his dog Jip about what it's 536 00:35:37,596 --> 00:35:41,796 Speaker 1: like to smell like a dog. Then Jip went up 537 00:35:41,796 --> 00:35:43,716 Speaker 1: to the front of the ship and smelt the wind, 538 00:35:44,356 --> 00:35:51,036 Speaker 1: and he started muttering to himself. Tar, Spanish onion, kerosene oil, 539 00:35:51,996 --> 00:35:59,876 Speaker 1: white raincoats, crust raal leaf, rubber, burning, lace, curtains being walsht. No, no, no, 540 00:35:59,956 --> 00:36:04,276 Speaker 1: my mistake, lace curtains hanging out to dry, and foxes, 541 00:36:04,356 --> 00:36:08,276 Speaker 1: hundreds of them, cops. And can you really smell all 542 00:36:08,316 --> 00:36:12,636 Speaker 1: those different things in this one wind, asked the doctor. Why, 543 00:36:12,716 --> 00:36:16,236 Speaker 1: of course, said Jim. And those are only a few 544 00:36:16,236 --> 00:36:20,396 Speaker 1: of the easy smells, A strong one. Any mongrel could 545 00:36:20,396 --> 00:36:23,436 Speaker 1: smell those with a cold in his head. Wait now, 546 00:36:23,836 --> 00:36:25,796 Speaker 1: and I'll tell you some of the hardest scents that 547 00:36:25,836 --> 00:36:28,956 Speaker 1: are coming on this wind are view of the dainty one. 548 00:36:30,556 --> 00:36:34,076 Speaker 1: Then Jip closes his eyes and seems to be barely breathing, 549 00:36:34,676 --> 00:36:42,396 Speaker 1: almost dreaming. Bricks, he whispered, very low, old yellow bricks 550 00:36:42,396 --> 00:36:45,996 Speaker 1: crumbling with age in a garden wall, the sweet breath 551 00:36:46,076 --> 00:36:50,196 Speaker 1: of young cows standing in a mountain stream, the lead 552 00:36:50,276 --> 00:36:54,636 Speaker 1: roof of a dovecoat or perhaps a granary with the 553 00:36:54,716 --> 00:36:58,876 Speaker 1: midday sun on it. Black kid gloves lying in a 554 00:36:58,956 --> 00:37:02,756 Speaker 1: bureau drawer of walnut wood, a dusty road with a 555 00:37:02,836 --> 00:37:08,196 Speaker 1: horse's drinking trough beneath the sycamore, the little mushrooms bursting 556 00:37:08,276 --> 00:37:17,596 Speaker 1: with the rotting le. Okay, so that's fiction. Juliana Breyer 557 00:37:17,716 --> 00:37:21,196 Speaker 1: is a scientist. She got interested in figuring out there's 558 00:37:21,236 --> 00:37:24,396 Speaker 1: so many sense How do dogs decide what to smell? 559 00:37:25,076 --> 00:37:28,156 Speaker 1: They imagine being a dog entering a room, and then 560 00:37:28,716 --> 00:37:33,956 Speaker 1: how can I distinguish all these different orders? How do 561 00:37:34,036 --> 00:37:37,516 Speaker 1: I distinguish what is important to me? Breyer came up 562 00:37:37,596 --> 00:37:41,156 Speaker 1: with an ingenious idea and then began experimenting. I should 563 00:37:41,156 --> 00:37:44,076 Speaker 1: explain that she uses dogs, any dogs, people's pets, and 564 00:37:44,116 --> 00:37:47,116 Speaker 1: her experiments. She's got a few hundred of them on call. 565 00:37:47,636 --> 00:37:50,276 Speaker 1: They volunteer, They come with their owners, their owners stay 566 00:37:50,356 --> 00:37:53,076 Speaker 1: for the tests. The dogs are not special genius dogs, 567 00:37:53,076 --> 00:37:56,796 Speaker 1: They're just ordinary dogs. Before she explained the smelling study 568 00:37:56,836 --> 00:38:03,156 Speaker 1: to me, though, she showed me how the laboratory actually works. 569 00:38:03,156 --> 00:38:05,396 Speaker 1: She took us through a hallway and into the dog 570 00:38:05,476 --> 00:38:11,636 Speaker 1: lab itself. So dark, basement room empty, but in the 571 00:38:11,636 --> 00:38:14,036 Speaker 1: back of the room, Brier opened a door and let 572 00:38:14,076 --> 00:38:16,996 Speaker 1: out her dog, a Border Colli mix. What's her name? 573 00:38:17,556 --> 00:38:22,876 Speaker 1: Nah nah nah Hey Brier took us to another room 574 00:38:23,156 --> 00:38:26,756 Speaker 1: set up for an experiment. Yeah, so we're in a 575 00:38:26,796 --> 00:38:29,796 Speaker 1: sort of polygon almost room with file cabins on one 576 00:38:29,836 --> 00:38:32,876 Speaker 1: long end and three windows. We're in the basement, so 577 00:38:32,916 --> 00:38:35,676 Speaker 1: there's sort of garden windows French windows, and there are 578 00:38:35,716 --> 00:38:39,796 Speaker 1: four boxes spread across the window sills. They are this 579 00:38:40,196 --> 00:38:43,476 Speaker 1: black boxes, size of maybe a kid's shoe box, and 580 00:38:43,636 --> 00:38:46,836 Speaker 1: each have a number one, two, three, four. There's a 581 00:38:46,876 --> 00:38:48,876 Speaker 1: camera stand set up, there's not a camera, and then 582 00:38:48,916 --> 00:38:51,916 Speaker 1: there's a red chair in the middle of this tiled 583 00:38:52,036 --> 00:38:57,396 Speaker 1: great floor room. Also on this test, sole knew already 584 00:38:57,436 --> 00:39:01,956 Speaker 1: that dogs are able to even unskilled dogs, untrained dogs 585 00:39:01,956 --> 00:39:04,876 Speaker 1: are able to communicate up all the hidden toy and 586 00:39:04,996 --> 00:39:10,516 Speaker 1: we wanted to know how it works. Exactly like if 587 00:39:10,556 --> 00:39:13,076 Speaker 1: your dog loses her tennis ball under the sofa and 588 00:39:13,156 --> 00:39:15,196 Speaker 1: you ask her to go get her ball, she'll find 589 00:39:15,196 --> 00:39:16,716 Speaker 1: a way to tell you that that's where her ball 590 00:39:16,796 --> 00:39:19,556 Speaker 1: is and then it's stuck there. Right. This is called 591 00:39:19,796 --> 00:39:23,796 Speaker 1: the showing behavior. Briar wanted to test that you can 592 00:39:23,796 --> 00:39:26,356 Speaker 1: only do this test with dogs who really love toys. 593 00:39:27,036 --> 00:39:30,596 Speaker 1: Nana loves toys. Briar came back with a yellow ball 594 00:39:30,916 --> 00:39:33,276 Speaker 1: with a bell in it and she threw it for Nana. 595 00:39:33,876 --> 00:39:36,356 Speaker 1: So she's crazy about toys. This is what we need. 596 00:39:37,956 --> 00:39:40,116 Speaker 1: Then Brier handed me the ball and told me to 597 00:39:40,156 --> 00:39:42,356 Speaker 1: put it inside one of the numbered shoe boxes on 598 00:39:42,396 --> 00:39:46,596 Speaker 1: the window sill. Yeah. You show the ball to her 599 00:39:46,636 --> 00:39:51,116 Speaker 1: and she can watch me, but she can know where 600 00:39:51,116 --> 00:39:57,156 Speaker 1: it will lose. Okay, okay, I have this ball. She's 601 00:39:57,196 --> 00:40:04,756 Speaker 1: gone putting it in box number three. Okay, you saw 602 00:40:04,796 --> 00:40:10,316 Speaker 1: the Broert called back from the next room. Yes. She 603 00:40:10,396 --> 00:40:12,476 Speaker 1: came back in and sat down on the red chair. 604 00:40:12,636 --> 00:40:15,436 Speaker 1: She told Nana to sit, and then she asked her 605 00:40:15,716 --> 00:40:25,276 Speaker 1: where the ball was. Sex see. Nana ran to the 606 00:40:25,316 --> 00:40:29,396 Speaker 1: window and jumped up at box number three. Brower got 607 00:40:29,476 --> 00:40:32,516 Speaker 1: up and walked over to the box. Wallah, the ball 608 00:40:32,716 --> 00:40:37,236 Speaker 1: was inside that box. What Broyer studying here is exactly 609 00:40:37,276 --> 00:40:41,556 Speaker 1: which gestures dogs use to communicate with us. Sometimes they jump, 610 00:40:41,916 --> 00:40:44,276 Speaker 1: Sometimes they go to the box and bark. Sometimes they'll 611 00:40:44,316 --> 00:40:46,156 Speaker 1: look at the box, then look back at their owner, 612 00:40:46,356 --> 00:40:48,396 Speaker 1: look at the box, then look back at their owner. 613 00:40:48,956 --> 00:40:50,756 Speaker 1: One of my dogs does this when she wants to 614 00:40:50,796 --> 00:40:53,516 Speaker 1: go outside. She doesn't like to bark. She's the smart one. 615 00:40:54,236 --> 00:40:56,076 Speaker 1: She'll go to the back door, look at the door, 616 00:40:56,116 --> 00:40:57,636 Speaker 1: look at me, look at the door, look at me, 617 00:40:57,796 --> 00:40:59,916 Speaker 1: look at the door until I finally get the message 618 00:40:59,956 --> 00:41:02,916 Speaker 1: and open the door. That's showing behavior. That's one way 619 00:41:02,956 --> 00:41:06,516 Speaker 1: dogs communicate with us. But how do they think? How 620 00:41:06,516 --> 00:41:10,116 Speaker 1: do they think about smells? For one, were smell studies. 621 00:41:10,276 --> 00:41:13,436 Speaker 1: Brower came into the lab and made scent trails for 622 00:41:13,476 --> 00:41:17,236 Speaker 1: the dogs to follow. We have a track or a trail, 623 00:41:17,716 --> 00:41:20,516 Speaker 1: and in the end of the trail is not the 624 00:41:20,516 --> 00:41:24,916 Speaker 1: thing that was made by the trail. The dog enters 625 00:41:24,956 --> 00:41:28,396 Speaker 1: the room smells a favorite toy, say it's a red ball. 626 00:41:28,916 --> 00:41:31,756 Speaker 1: The dog follows that smell the trail left by the 627 00:41:31,796 --> 00:41:34,996 Speaker 1: red ball. Sometimes at the end of that trail, the 628 00:41:35,036 --> 00:41:38,316 Speaker 1: dog will find that red ball. Sometimes, in some trials 629 00:41:38,316 --> 00:41:41,316 Speaker 1: of the experiment, the dog will find something else, another 630 00:41:41,356 --> 00:41:45,076 Speaker 1: favorite toy, say a yellow frisbee, that Brower's switched out 631 00:41:45,116 --> 00:41:47,716 Speaker 1: for the red ball. The important thing was here, that 632 00:41:48,076 --> 00:41:51,916 Speaker 1: both toys were really important with the dog, so they 633 00:41:51,996 --> 00:41:54,956 Speaker 1: locked them equally. Here's what she was trying to find out. 634 00:41:55,436 --> 00:41:58,556 Speaker 1: When a dog is following a scent trail, sniffing along, 635 00:41:59,156 --> 00:42:02,396 Speaker 1: is he thinking, oh, something good, something good, something good, 636 00:42:02,996 --> 00:42:05,876 Speaker 1: or is he thinking, ooh, my red ball, my red ball, 637 00:42:06,036 --> 00:42:08,756 Speaker 1: my red ball? How would you find that out? What 638 00:42:08,836 --> 00:42:11,316 Speaker 1: would happened if sniffing the scent of the red ball, 639 00:42:11,836 --> 00:42:14,596 Speaker 1: that dog following that trail found at the end of 640 00:42:14,596 --> 00:42:19,476 Speaker 1: that trail a yellow frisbee. They went there, and then 641 00:42:19,556 --> 00:42:22,476 Speaker 1: when the toy was exchanged, they took the toy, but 642 00:42:22,596 --> 00:42:26,316 Speaker 1: then they would just keep on searching for the real one. 643 00:42:27,276 --> 00:42:29,556 Speaker 1: This would seem to suggest, then that the dog isn't 644 00:42:29,556 --> 00:42:33,196 Speaker 1: just following the trail thinking good smell, good smell. The 645 00:42:33,236 --> 00:42:36,876 Speaker 1: dog is following a specific smell, looking for a specific thing, 646 00:42:37,356 --> 00:42:40,636 Speaker 1: and thinking something like I was following the trail of 647 00:42:40,676 --> 00:42:43,556 Speaker 1: my red ball, but what the hell, here's my yellow frisbee. 648 00:42:44,396 --> 00:42:47,236 Speaker 1: Broyer's experiment proved that dogs have an idea, a way 649 00:42:47,236 --> 00:42:51,436 Speaker 1: of thinking about what they're smelling. Doctor Doolittle imagined that 650 00:42:52,076 --> 00:42:57,516 Speaker 1: Broyer proved it. Saying goodbye to Breyer, I remembered something 651 00:42:57,636 --> 00:43:00,356 Speaker 1: my friend Elisad told me that she'd learned about on 652 00:43:00,396 --> 00:43:03,796 Speaker 1: a podcast. Dogs can smell time, so they can tell 653 00:43:03,836 --> 00:43:06,516 Speaker 1: it's morning because of the way the air and the 654 00:43:06,556 --> 00:43:10,396 Speaker 1: smells in the summer, and they can tell evening because 655 00:43:10,436 --> 00:43:13,156 Speaker 1: those things change. And that's the dog's way of interacting 656 00:43:13,196 --> 00:43:20,916 Speaker 1: with the world. I love that smelling time. That was 657 00:43:20,956 --> 00:43:23,996 Speaker 1: an idea. I was really interested in the totally unique 658 00:43:23,996 --> 00:43:26,916 Speaker 1: experience of being a dog in the world. At least 659 00:43:26,996 --> 00:43:29,636 Speaker 1: dug up that podcast. It was an interview with a 660 00:43:29,636 --> 00:43:33,356 Speaker 1: scientist named Alexander Horowitz. She'd written a book called Inside 661 00:43:33,356 --> 00:43:37,276 Speaker 1: of a Dog, What Dogs See, Smell, and No. I 662 00:43:37,316 --> 00:43:40,156 Speaker 1: figured I should meet this Horowitz and headed to New York. 663 00:43:40,676 --> 00:43:42,876 Speaker 1: I wanted to get a kind of dog's eye view 664 00:43:43,556 --> 00:43:48,236 Speaker 1: or I guess a dog's noses scent of the dog park. 665 00:43:55,676 --> 00:43:57,556 Speaker 1: You may think this is a lot of globe trotting 666 00:43:57,636 --> 00:44:00,636 Speaker 1: for a podcast episode about dogs, but have you read 667 00:44:00,636 --> 00:44:03,116 Speaker 1: the Doctor Doolittle stories. The man is half the time 668 00:44:03,156 --> 00:44:06,476 Speaker 1: gallivanting across the planet looking for obscure animals like the 669 00:44:06,556 --> 00:44:10,076 Speaker 1: giant sea snail. One time, he even rides a lunamoth 670 00:44:10,196 --> 00:44:13,916 Speaker 1: to the moon. I didn't take a lunamoth to the moon, 671 00:44:14,356 --> 00:44:16,716 Speaker 1: but I did take Amtrak to New York to meet 672 00:44:16,716 --> 00:44:19,876 Speaker 1: Alexander Horowitz, a Barnard professor and head of the Dog 673 00:44:19,916 --> 00:44:23,476 Speaker 1: Cognition Lab. She's got a fantastic podcast about dogs called 674 00:44:23,596 --> 00:44:26,916 Speaker 1: Off Leash. Her basic research question is what is it 675 00:44:26,956 --> 00:44:29,916 Speaker 1: like to be a dog. She's interested in how dogs smell. 676 00:44:30,116 --> 00:44:32,636 Speaker 1: That's how she figured out dogs can smell time. But 677 00:44:32,716 --> 00:44:35,156 Speaker 1: she started out as a fact checker at The New Yorker. 678 00:44:36,276 --> 00:44:38,476 Speaker 1: It was really, really fun. Yeah, it was a great 679 00:44:39,316 --> 00:44:43,476 Speaker 1: exercise in thinking about knowledge and truth. Yeah, what counts 680 00:44:43,516 --> 00:44:46,356 Speaker 1: us truth? Horowitz came at dog research by way of 681 00:44:46,356 --> 00:44:49,796 Speaker 1: fact checking for one writer in particular. Yeah. I was 682 00:44:49,876 --> 00:44:55,916 Speaker 1: checking for Oliver Sacks, and I thought, oh, cognitive science. Yeah. 683 00:44:55,996 --> 00:44:59,476 Speaker 1: Oliver Sacks, the neurologist, wrote about how people think, what 684 00:44:59,516 --> 00:45:02,156 Speaker 1: it means to be a human. Hero books like The 685 00:45:02,236 --> 00:45:04,516 Speaker 1: Man who Mistook his Wife for a hat, about a 686 00:45:04,556 --> 00:45:07,076 Speaker 1: disorder where you see things as things that are not there. 687 00:45:07,836 --> 00:45:11,716 Speaker 1: Sachs had this tremendous moral imagination combined with his own 688 00:45:11,756 --> 00:45:15,116 Speaker 1: scientific mind, and then his extraordinary gifts as a writer. 689 00:45:15,556 --> 00:45:18,356 Speaker 1: He could picture and then conjure on the page how 690 00:45:18,356 --> 00:45:22,676 Speaker 1: an entirely different being experiences the world. He inspired generations 691 00:45:22,716 --> 00:45:27,036 Speaker 1: of scientists and writers, including Horowitz. So she left The 692 00:45:27,076 --> 00:45:29,836 Speaker 1: New Yorker and went to graduate school. I was interested 693 00:45:29,876 --> 00:45:33,196 Speaker 1: in a metacognitive skill called theory of mind, which is 694 00:45:33,236 --> 00:45:37,956 Speaker 1: an ability that humans develop typically at about age three ish, 695 00:45:37,996 --> 00:45:42,076 Speaker 1: where we start thinking and realizing others have opinions and 696 00:45:42,156 --> 00:45:46,556 Speaker 1: knowledge different than we do, which is obviously foremost in 697 00:45:46,636 --> 00:45:50,756 Speaker 1: our cognition. There hadn't been any evidence in these experimental 698 00:45:50,796 --> 00:45:55,116 Speaker 1: approaches with non humans of theory of mind, but it 699 00:45:55,196 --> 00:45:58,116 Speaker 1: seemed to me something that you would expect to see 700 00:45:58,316 --> 00:46:02,796 Speaker 1: in a lot of social animals, because sociability requires having 701 00:46:02,796 --> 00:46:05,996 Speaker 1: some sense of what others. Yeah, one kind of evidence 702 00:46:05,996 --> 00:46:09,476 Speaker 1: for a theory of mind is play playing, you have 703 00:46:09,516 --> 00:46:12,836 Speaker 1: to have a theory of mind. Harwood's decided she needed 704 00:46:12,876 --> 00:46:16,156 Speaker 1: to watch animals play. So I was looking for playing animals, 705 00:46:16,156 --> 00:46:19,116 Speaker 1: seeing if I could see anything in their interactions which 706 00:46:19,116 --> 00:46:21,836 Speaker 1: would tell me about their minds. But animals don't just 707 00:46:21,916 --> 00:46:25,556 Speaker 1: play on demand typically right often they might want to 708 00:46:25,836 --> 00:46:28,756 Speaker 1: disappear from view to play. It probably took me about 709 00:46:28,756 --> 00:46:32,156 Speaker 1: six months before I realized taking her out three times 710 00:46:32,156 --> 00:46:34,796 Speaker 1: a day to play with other dogs, I should study 711 00:46:34,876 --> 00:46:40,356 Speaker 1: dogs they're playing. It was a Eureka moment, ah dogs, 712 00:46:40,916 --> 00:46:44,836 Speaker 1: but she wasn't alone. Suddenly we all found we had 713 00:46:44,876 --> 00:46:48,956 Speaker 1: this very good subject. They were good because they're convenience, 714 00:46:49,316 --> 00:46:52,316 Speaker 1: but they were good because they're also smart. They have 715 00:46:52,316 --> 00:46:57,316 Speaker 1: a lot of social cognition, meaning they are skilled socially 716 00:46:57,556 --> 00:47:03,636 Speaker 1: they're able to get information from others. They're very cooperative, 717 00:47:03,676 --> 00:47:07,036 Speaker 1: not just with other dogs, but inter specifically with humans. 718 00:47:07,476 --> 00:47:11,716 Speaker 1: And so a few old of dog cognition kind of 719 00:47:11,756 --> 00:47:14,676 Speaker 1: started blooming in the early two thousands and now actually 720 00:47:14,756 --> 00:47:19,956 Speaker 1: is quite prolific. Right, there are hundreds of articles written 721 00:47:19,956 --> 00:47:22,556 Speaker 1: every year on the field, whereas when I began their word, 722 00:47:23,156 --> 00:47:26,676 Speaker 1: there were none. Horowitz took hundreds of hours of footage 723 00:47:26,676 --> 00:47:29,916 Speaker 1: of dogs playing and analyze them second by second, breaking 724 00:47:29,956 --> 00:47:33,116 Speaker 1: them down into episodes of play. A unit of play 725 00:47:33,276 --> 00:47:39,956 Speaker 1: she called about like in boxing, about talking about dogs 726 00:47:39,996 --> 00:47:43,156 Speaker 1: playing is like singing about bicycle riding. We had to 727 00:47:43,196 --> 00:47:45,876 Speaker 1: go watch it. So I packed up and headed up 728 00:47:45,916 --> 00:47:49,156 Speaker 1: to a dog park along the Hudson River. Now they're 729 00:47:49,156 --> 00:47:51,676 Speaker 1: staring at each other, right, there could be a something, ye, 730 00:47:52,316 --> 00:47:58,076 Speaker 1: So that's like an exaggerated approach. And there's a playbout 731 00:47:58,116 --> 00:48:01,196 Speaker 1: under the bench and sort of wandering off. For this 732 00:48:01,236 --> 00:48:05,076 Speaker 1: dog is wagging, but I don't know if she's going 733 00:48:05,116 --> 00:48:08,116 Speaker 1: to engage. She hiding under her owner. She's like tentative 734 00:48:08,156 --> 00:48:11,316 Speaker 1: with the keeping in touch, more touch with the owner. 735 00:48:12,116 --> 00:48:16,756 Speaker 1: Not maybe the most confident dog. I'm surprised because he 736 00:48:16,836 --> 00:48:19,596 Speaker 1: did go mount right away. She reminded me of a 737 00:48:19,636 --> 00:48:23,036 Speaker 1: sports commentator. Oh look, here's another here's another little belt. 738 00:48:23,076 --> 00:48:26,436 Speaker 1: So you have a dog on their back. You can 739 00:48:26,476 --> 00:48:28,876 Speaker 1: really take advantage of that, and the good player will not. 740 00:48:29,636 --> 00:48:32,836 Speaker 1: We'll just see if he's doing little feigning. But he's 741 00:48:32,876 --> 00:48:37,476 Speaker 1: not all going all in like he could and waits 742 00:48:37,556 --> 00:48:40,876 Speaker 1: and then she jumps up. That's a nice little bout. 743 00:48:41,636 --> 00:48:44,236 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of turn taking there here. Like 744 00:48:44,316 --> 00:48:47,716 Speaker 1: I do a job, I knew. I was fortified with 745 00:48:47,836 --> 00:48:50,316 Speaker 1: new information to bring back to the dog Bark with 746 00:48:50,316 --> 00:48:54,756 Speaker 1: my dogs Greta and Daisy. I also couldn't help prontriloquising 747 00:48:55,556 --> 00:48:59,196 Speaker 1: the tall doodles looking for a playmate. I could see 748 00:48:59,796 --> 00:49:03,356 Speaker 1: longingly over the gate, who's coming in? I only have 749 00:49:03,436 --> 00:49:10,396 Speaker 1: a dreevers in here. He Real dog science isn't ignoring 750 00:49:10,436 --> 00:49:13,116 Speaker 1: everything common sense tells you about the reality of animal 751 00:49:13,156 --> 00:49:17,516 Speaker 1: consciousness so you can experiment on animals. It's following your 752 00:49:17,516 --> 00:49:20,396 Speaker 1: own curiosity, your own love of dogs, in this case, 753 00:49:21,076 --> 00:49:23,836 Speaker 1: out of curiosity just to know, but also for the 754 00:49:23,916 --> 00:49:27,356 Speaker 1: same reason that Hugh Lofting created Doctor Doolittle while watching 755 00:49:27,396 --> 00:49:31,276 Speaker 1: horses being slaughtered on Flanders fields. I want to know 756 00:49:31,356 --> 00:49:33,676 Speaker 1: what it's like to be an animal in order to 757 00:49:33,676 --> 00:49:38,756 Speaker 1: treat them better. Every road you drive down in the 758 00:49:38,796 --> 00:49:43,036 Speaker 1: town of Killingworth, Connecticut, you come across another farm, horse farm, 759 00:49:43,316 --> 00:49:47,916 Speaker 1: goat farm, sheep farm, goose farm, duck farm. Hugh Lofting, 760 00:49:48,116 --> 00:49:52,116 Speaker 1: the creator of Doctor Doolittle, loved this place. Near the 761 00:49:52,196 --> 00:49:53,956 Speaker 1: end of his life, he decided he wanted to be 762 00:49:53,956 --> 00:49:57,676 Speaker 1: buried here. He died in nineteen forty seven. His body 763 00:49:57,756 --> 00:50:00,596 Speaker 1: was shipped back to Connecticut. When Ben and I went 764 00:50:00,636 --> 00:50:03,436 Speaker 1: there with my friend Elise Brooch. We went in search 765 00:50:03,476 --> 00:50:06,956 Speaker 1: of his grave, trudging across a field, watching out for 766 00:50:06,996 --> 00:50:10,556 Speaker 1: ticks and poison. Ivy all right, three leaves green and shiny. 767 00:50:10,676 --> 00:50:15,916 Speaker 1: Right yeah. With the owners of Lofting's old house, we 768 00:50:16,036 --> 00:50:19,956 Speaker 1: crossed a field of very tall grass. Man, I feel 769 00:50:19,996 --> 00:50:24,076 Speaker 1: that this is very last dark right here. Yes, would 770 00:50:24,156 --> 00:50:26,276 Speaker 1: nearly come to the end of our mad cap adventure, 771 00:50:26,476 --> 00:50:29,156 Speaker 1: hunting for the evidence of the age old knowledge that 772 00:50:29,316 --> 00:50:36,436 Speaker 1: animals have minds and souls. Finally we spied the cemetery 773 00:50:37,436 --> 00:50:42,316 Speaker 1: the back corner. Okay, so it's a granite marker, like 774 00:50:42,316 --> 00:50:46,756 Speaker 1: a small rectangular almost like a child sized coffin, baby 775 00:50:46,796 --> 00:50:50,356 Speaker 1: sized coffin, And says Hugh Lofting, eighteen eighty six to 776 00:50:50,476 --> 00:50:53,516 Speaker 1: nineteen forty seven. Maybe we should look up how to 777 00:50:53,556 --> 00:50:57,036 Speaker 1: pronounce the left for you quiz right? I mean I 778 00:50:57,076 --> 00:51:02,956 Speaker 1: think quo quis? Okay, quick, separate rabbit. I like how 779 00:51:02,956 --> 00:51:12,836 Speaker 1: you just rolled. They are just want to Caroline, who 780 00:51:12,876 --> 00:51:15,876 Speaker 1: lives in Lofting's old house, comes by every once in 781 00:51:15,916 --> 00:51:20,756 Speaker 1: a while and leaves animals here by Lofting's grave plastic animals. 782 00:51:21,756 --> 00:51:26,676 Speaker 1: Alise helped me out with the Latin quiss separabit. Who 783 00:51:26,676 --> 00:51:31,916 Speaker 1: shall separate us? It's the motto of the Irish Guards, 784 00:51:32,236 --> 00:51:34,916 Speaker 1: the regiment Lofting fought with during the First World War, 785 00:51:35,276 --> 00:51:38,356 Speaker 1: when so many animals, human and horse and dog alike 786 00:51:39,036 --> 00:51:44,636 Speaker 1: died needlessly. Who shall separate us? I loved that for 787 00:51:44,756 --> 00:51:49,116 Speaker 1: Lofting's grave marker. For a very long time, people have 788 00:51:49,196 --> 00:51:52,596 Speaker 1: believed in a great separation, a wall dividing humans from 789 00:51:52,596 --> 00:51:56,796 Speaker 1: all other animals. Weirdly, children's literature is one place where 790 00:51:56,796 --> 00:52:00,676 Speaker 1: that wall gets broken down, and lately it's being broken 791 00:52:00,716 --> 00:52:04,836 Speaker 1: down by animal science. The more scientists study animals, the 792 00:52:04,916 --> 00:52:08,516 Speaker 1: more we know what animals know. What do dogs know? 793 00:52:09,556 --> 00:52:12,596 Speaker 1: We still don't really know, But the more we do know, 794 00:52:13,236 --> 00:52:17,196 Speaker 1: the clarer it becomes that less separates us than some 795 00:52:17,236 --> 00:52:23,596 Speaker 1: people used to think. The Last Archive is written and 796 00:52:23,676 --> 00:52:27,596 Speaker 1: hosted by me Jill Lapour. It's produced by Sophie Crane, 797 00:52:27,676 --> 00:52:30,916 Speaker 1: Ben Natt of Haffrey and Lucy Sullivan. Our editors are 798 00:52:30,996 --> 00:52:34,116 Speaker 1: Julia Barton and Sophie Crane, and our executive producer is 799 00:52:34,156 --> 00:52:38,316 Speaker 1: Mia Lobel. Jake Gorsky is our engineer. Fact checking by 800 00:52:38,316 --> 00:52:42,836 Speaker 1: Amy Gaines. Original music by Matthias Bossi and John Evans 801 00:52:42,916 --> 00:52:47,516 Speaker 1: of Stellwagen Symfinett. Our research assistant is Mia Hazra. Our 802 00:52:47,556 --> 00:52:51,836 Speaker 1: full proof players are Least Brooch and Robert Riccatta. Many 803 00:52:51,836 --> 00:52:54,076 Speaker 1: of our sound effects are from Harry Jeannette Junior and 804 00:52:54,156 --> 00:52:57,596 Speaker 1: the Star Jeannette Foundation. The Last Archive is a production 805 00:52:57,596 --> 00:53:00,836 Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show, consider subscribing 806 00:53:00,876 --> 00:53:04,836 Speaker 1: to Pushkin Plus, offering bonus content like The Last Archivist, 807 00:53:05,076 --> 00:53:08,676 Speaker 1: a limited series just for subscribers, and add free listening 808 00:53:08,716 --> 00:53:11,396 Speaker 1: across us our network for four ninety nine a month. 809 00:53:11,836 --> 00:53:14,716 Speaker 1: Look for the Pushkin Plus channel on Apple Podcasts or 810 00:53:14,996 --> 00:53:18,396 Speaker 1: at pushkin dot fm. If you like the show, please 811 00:53:18,436 --> 00:53:22,236 Speaker 1: remember to rate, share and review. To find more Pushkin podcasts, 812 00:53:22,556 --> 00:53:26,276 Speaker 1: Listen on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts or wherever you 813 00:53:26,316 --> 00:53:28,516 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. I'm Jill Lapour,