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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe Podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey there, welcome back. It's the Book of Joe Podcast

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Speaker 1: with me, Tom Berducci and of course Joe Madden. Joe,

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Speaker 1: we got a lot to get into as the season,

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Speaker 1: believe it or not, is starting to approach the halfway point.

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Speaker 1: Crazy how fast the season goes. But here we are

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Speaker 1: heading towards the All Star Game. A lot of topics

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Speaker 1: I want to get into today. I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about an epidemic that is claiming some of the stars

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Speaker 1: of Major League Baseball. I want to talk about one

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Speaker 1: of the most important regular season games coming up that

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Speaker 1: Baseball has maybe ever staged. But I want to start

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Speaker 1: with a real phenom. We throw that word around a lot, Joe,

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Speaker 1: but when it comes to Paul Skeins and what he's

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Speaker 1: doing on the mound right now, he is every bit

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Speaker 1: as good as advertised, if not more so. Of course,

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Speaker 1: the number one pick out of LSU for the Pittsburgh

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Speaker 1: Pirates has made seven starts in the major leagues and

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Speaker 1: he's just the second pitcher ever in those seven starts

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Speaker 1: to go undefeated with fifty or more strikeouts. He's got

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Speaker 1: fifty three and seven starts the other Masihiro Tanaka for

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Speaker 1: the Yankees, And of course he had been pitching in

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Speaker 1: Japan for six or seven years before he came over here,

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Speaker 1: so maybe it's not quite analogous as a guy stepping

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Speaker 1: out of college on a major league field and absolutely dominating.

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Speaker 1: Here's what's interesting to me, Joe Paul Skiings can throw

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Speaker 1: a ball one hundred miles an hour. His average fastball

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Speaker 1: is over ninety nine miles an hour. It's just crazy

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Speaker 1: fast for a starting pitcher, and yet he throws his

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Speaker 1: fastball forty percent of the time. Now he does throw

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Speaker 1: that splinker. It's a hybrid of a sinker and a split,

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Speaker 1: and I guess you'd call it a off speed pitch

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Speaker 1: because it is a splitter, as some of the tracking

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Speaker 1: firms notice that that's what they call it. But it

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Speaker 1: is a good hard firm ninety three, so you know

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Speaker 1: that's the average fastball is ninety three ninety four. But

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Speaker 1: forty fastballs forest seemers for a guy who throws one hundred. Joe,

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is where the game is going, and

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Speaker 1: this guy's got five pitches, like five legit pitches. You've

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Speaker 1: got a good fastball. That point now is you don't

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Speaker 1: need to throw it a lot. Tell me what you

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Speaker 1: see about pitching and especially the high velocity guys. And

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Speaker 1: it used to be established a fastball and work off

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Speaker 1: of it, and now it's almost been inverted where it

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Speaker 1: is quote unquote pitching backward.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, first of all, you I mean that was going

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Speaker 2: to be My observation is that he pitches so well.

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Speaker 2: Those numbers are so good because of that splitter hybrid

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Speaker 2: that he throws. That pitch to me, is his biggest

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Speaker 2: swing and mispitch. That's the one that makes the hitters

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Speaker 2: go back to the dugout shaking their heads. I watched

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Speaker 2: a little bit of them yesterday and it just dives

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Speaker 2: and it dives underneath the right handed hitters, and he

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Speaker 2: could throw it for a strike. It almost seems like

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Speaker 2: that's his best strike throwing pitch, his slider. He just

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Speaker 2: really tries to dot the outside edge down. If he misses,

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Speaker 2: he's okay with that and his fastball. Yeah, it's one

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Speaker 2: hundred miles an hour, but it's just utilized on occasion

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Speaker 2: to set everything else up. That's what I'm seeing with him,

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Speaker 2: So I'm always apprehensive a little bit to use that

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Speaker 2: splitter so often and having your fingers split so much.

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Speaker 2: To throw that pitch always bothered me with young pitchers

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Speaker 2: and the minor leagues. I had guys back in the day,

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Speaker 2: and they can get a lot of guys out early

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Speaker 2: with that pitch, but eventually it could break down the arm.

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Speaker 2: Just I don't want to be like Doom and Gloom

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Speaker 2: by any means, but to throw that pitch so often

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Speaker 2: bothers me a little bit. Because he has such a

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Speaker 2: great fastball. He's got the nice breaking ball too, so

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Speaker 2: hopefully that doesn't play out. But I've always had concern

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Speaker 2: about young pitchers, like older guys that have not been

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Speaker 2: able to be successful. They found them up with a

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Speaker 2: splitter and it keeps him in the big leagues, makes

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Speaker 2: them successful. That's one thing. The young guy's doing that often.

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Speaker 2: I've always had a little bit of concern, and I've

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Speaker 2: seen slow motion. It looks like he doesn't split his

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Speaker 2: fingers that much on that pitch, which would be good.

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Speaker 2: But then again, I'm always a little bit concerned. Having

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Speaker 2: said all that, we're talking about the proliferation of the

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Speaker 2: breaking ball, but there's still some hitters out there that

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Speaker 2: can't catch up with velocity and getting a high level

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Speaker 2: of velocity. And I guess I heard about Alonso saying

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Speaker 2: more velocity. I know Mike Trott had been seeing more velocity.

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Speaker 2: So that comes down to scouting. That's why analytics really

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Speaker 2: shines because they can pinpoint what a hitter is really

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Speaker 2: not doing a whole lot of damage. With a guy

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Speaker 2: that's not catching up with fastball, he throw him a

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Speaker 2: breaking ball stripe for the typical slider batspeed kind of

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Speaker 2: stuff that all of a sudden you're throwing the guy

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Speaker 2: at bat fastball permitting him to catch up. And I've

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Speaker 2: always had issues with that, So I think analytics permits

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Speaker 2: to identify, Yes, go with the fastball right here, don't

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Speaker 2: throw them a breaking ball, even it's definitely not a

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Speaker 2: strike breaking ball because he's going to hit it. But specifically,

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Speaker 2: I just would be a little concern with that over usage,

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Speaker 2: only because of my history scene stuff like that. But

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Speaker 2: I'm here to tay it's an outstanding pitch. I'm not

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Speaker 2: denigrating that. It's just a long term situation for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a great pitch. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: you made a great point here about how pitching now

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Speaker 1: and it probably always has been in terms of scouting reports,

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Speaker 1: but to me, it's more detailed than ever Joe and

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Speaker 1: how to attack hitters and where their weakness weaknesses are

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Speaker 1: and how to shape pitches to attack those weaknesses. And

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Speaker 1: Paul Skeenes was doing that in college. You know, he

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Speaker 1: had Wes Johnson as his pitching coach at LSU, and

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Speaker 1: Wes had been with the Minnesota Twins for two and

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Speaker 1: a half years and he really was developed as a

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Speaker 1: pro pitcher in college. In terms of breaking hitters down.

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Speaker 1: You think college baseball, it's basically it's pretty close to

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Speaker 1: darn Triple A. But in terms of prep work, they

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Speaker 1: go at it like major leaguers. I mean the technology

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Speaker 1: as such, and there's so many college games that are

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Speaker 1: videotaped and they have track man at LSU, so you

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Speaker 1: know exactly the spin rates and the arcy and movement

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Speaker 1: on your pitches. You know, he's been doing all those things,

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Speaker 1: and I think because he has five pitches, he's able

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Speaker 1: to do that in the big leagues and it's second

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Speaker 1: nature to him now. He does a lot of homework.

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Speaker 1: He's into that side of the game as most young

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Speaker 1: pitchers are now. So he's taking advantage of that, there's

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Speaker 1: no question about that. What's interesting to me I mentioned

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Speaker 1: the under fifty percent fastball is if you go back

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Speaker 1: as recently as twenty seventeen, talking about hard throwers pitchers

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Speaker 1: who averaged ninety six and above, there was not a

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Speaker 1: single starting pitcher who threw ninety six and above who

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Speaker 1: didn't use his fastball at least fifty percent of the time.

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Speaker 1: Last year, there were twelve starting pitchers who averaged ninety

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Speaker 1: six and above. Those are elite throwers who are using

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Speaker 1: their fastball less than half the time, and Skins is

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Speaker 1: doing that now. But you have guys like Grayson Rodriguez,

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Speaker 1: Shane McClanahan, Jesus Lozardo, Yordy Perez, Cole Reagan's Shoe Otani,

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Speaker 1: who's a guy when he was healthy using his fastball

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Speaker 1: less than half the time. So this is where the

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Speaker 1: game is going. And I think it's mostly about attacking

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Speaker 1: hitters now and the way that they can now shape

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Speaker 1: secondary pitches to attack hitter swings, and Skeins is doing

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Speaker 1: a great job of that. One more thing on Skins

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Speaker 1: when we talk about his pitch mix, and I know

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Speaker 1: everybody loves the one hundred miles an hour and we're

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Speaker 1: fascinated when we get the triple digits and the velocity

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Speaker 1: in the reguar gun. His fastball, other than being really fast,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of average Joe. It really is. When you

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Speaker 1: break it down and the way he throws. He does

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Speaker 1: not throw like a pure four seen power guy, like

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Speaker 1: a Garrett Cole. He's a short strider. He gets under

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Speaker 1: the ball a little bit. His extension is not great.

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Speaker 1: Where we are having a high perceived velocity where the

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Speaker 1: fastball plays up, it does not have much run on it.

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Speaker 1: We look at the vertical movement, his fastball actually has

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Speaker 1: better horizontal movement than it has vertical movement. So to me,

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Speaker 1: he's not a guy who's going to live with that

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Speaker 1: fastball as a big swing and miss pitch. So I

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Speaker 1: think exactly the way he's using it now Joe is

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Speaker 1: the right way, and that it's not his primary pitch

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Speaker 1: because to me, it's just not good enough. It's not

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Speaker 1: here it is hit it. But if you get deep

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Speaker 1: into account and now you're expecting that split and that

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Speaker 1: fastball hold is playing at the bottom of the zone,

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Speaker 1: as we saw against Cincinnati on Monday night, hitters are

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Speaker 1: going to take it for strike three. It's almost pitching

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Speaker 1: backwards for a guy who throws a hundred.

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Speaker 2: It's the threat of throwing a hundred that makes the

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Speaker 2: other pitches really good too, So you have to be

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Speaker 2: set mentally, regardless of all the other peripheral numbers they're

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Speaker 2: regarding squad length, et cetera. One hundred is one hundred,

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Speaker 2: so you still have to get set up mentally for that.

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Speaker 2: And that really means like hitter's got to get loaded

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Speaker 2: and ready early, and with that that could also make

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Speaker 2: the split and this slider even a more effective pitch.

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Speaker 2: So all these things conspire to make his other pitches

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Speaker 2: even better. I'm just curious though, and again regarding what

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Speaker 2: you just said about this fastball and all the peripheries

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Speaker 2: about it. Still I mean, it's one hundred is one hundred. Now, Listen,

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Speaker 2: I've been around guys that throw that hard too, that

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Speaker 2: something get turned around a lot more often than you

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Speaker 2: would think, So there's something to that. Seeing the ball

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Speaker 2: easily up in his own but not up and enough

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Speaker 2: that he gets over the bat, no real ride to

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Speaker 2: the pitch, that kind of stuff. But nevertheless, I one

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Speaker 2: hundred is one hundred, So I think that regardless I mean,

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Speaker 2: but his his flitter has got that great of a movement.

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Speaker 2: But the fact that you got to be set up

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Speaker 2: mentally for that heart of a fastball is working in

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Speaker 2: his favorite Now, let's go into the season right now,

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Speaker 2: and as he gets through these teams the second time around,

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Speaker 2: see if there's any adjustments to be made, because it's

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Speaker 2: I've always was concerned with young pitchers relying on breaking

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Speaker 2: ball primarily to get guys out and how that eventually

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Speaker 2: has hitters see them more often, how that plays. So listen,

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Speaker 2: He's a fabulous talent, great stuff, strong looking kid, seems

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Speaker 2: like a great guy. But I just want to see

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Speaker 2: what happens the next time through.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think what's impressive about him though, Joe is

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Speaker 1: and I agree with you, the test is as it

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Speaker 1: always is with young players second time around, right, and

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Speaker 1: I think I've what I've seen so far this early

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Speaker 1: on seven starts. He does use five pitches, so I

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Speaker 1: think he has multiple ways to get hitters out. If

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Speaker 1: something's not working, he can go somewhere else. You make

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Speaker 1: a great point about the velocity, even though the properties

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Speaker 1: on the fastball are not like eye popping, but the

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Speaker 1: fact that a hitter has to gear up for one hundred.

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Speaker 1: You must respect that velocity, and you'll have guys commit early,

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Speaker 1: and that's why you're going to get some misses on

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Speaker 1: some of the off speed stuff. But you look at

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Speaker 1: the way he releases a baseball, and you know he's

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Speaker 1: not totally behind the baseball. The spin when it comes

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Speaker 1: off his hand on a clock, it's about between one

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Speaker 1: and two, like one five. You know, he's not between

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Speaker 1: twelve and one. So that's why he's going to have

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Speaker 1: more horizontal than vertical movement on that fastball. But again,

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Speaker 1: it's one hundred miles an hour. He's built like a

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Speaker 1: brick house, you know. I think he's built to pitch

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Speaker 1: deep in the games.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Of course the Pirates aren't letting him do that. He's

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Speaker 1: averaging ninety four pitches per start. One more thing on

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Speaker 1: the v low. I'd like to get your take on this, Joe.

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Speaker 1: Looking at his fastball by innings. Okay, his highest velocity

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Speaker 1: is in the first inning. He averages over one hundred

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Speaker 1: in the first inning, and with each inning it goes

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Speaker 1: down slightly, so when he gets to the fifth or

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Speaker 1: sixth inning, he's down to ninety eight. That would concern

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Speaker 1: me only from this point of view. You know, I've

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Speaker 1: talked with biomechanical people who say the best way to

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Speaker 1: stay healthy if you're a hard thrower is to modulate

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Speaker 1: your velocity. It's something that Justin Verlander learned how to do.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he was a guy when he first came up.

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Speaker 1: He wanted to throw every pitch one hundred and he realized,

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Speaker 1: you know, I got to save some of this and

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Speaker 1: have something in my pocket when there's a run around

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Speaker 1: second base where there's two strikes in the batter. Garrett Cole,

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Speaker 1: if you look at his velocity when he's got two

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Speaker 1: strikes and throws a four seamer, it's going to be

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Speaker 1: his A plus fastball. He's not throwing that all the time.

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Speaker 1: And I think, just for a better rm health, I

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Speaker 1: would like to see his fastball velocity modulate so that

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Speaker 1: it's not going down. And it's not a lot, don't

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Speaker 1: get me wrong, but it's telling me that he's coming

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Speaker 1: out of the gates, you know, firing basically as hard

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Speaker 1: as he can. When you see over one hundred in

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Speaker 1: the first inning.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and as he moves this further along, it could

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Speaker 2: be like your explanation's perfect. The big thing is to

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Speaker 2: learn how to locate less than one hundred. I mean

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Speaker 2: ninety five, ninety six to ninety seven is wonderful located well.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know exactly what the game plan is

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Speaker 2: for fastball and fastball location for him, and if he's

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Speaker 2: able to do that or not. He seems to have

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Speaker 2: really good command and watching him, it's like I'm saying,

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Speaker 2: the command of the split to me is really uncanny,

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Speaker 2: and that's like his go to pitch. I believe that's

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Speaker 2: the one when he needs a strike because one of

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Speaker 2: two things are going to happen. He's gonna throw it

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Speaker 2: for a strike or it's going to turn it start

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Speaker 2: out as a strike and become a ball and the

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Speaker 2: guy's going to swing at it. So that's a go

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Speaker 2: to strike pitch. It's a seven iron. He can hit

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Speaker 2: that anytime he wants, so as he moves it forward,

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Speaker 2: I'm curious to see how that plays out. I'd like

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Speaker 2: to see that too. I think that's to throw more

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Speaker 2: fastballs and fastballs located where he wants them to be located.

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Speaker 2: It's going to really, I think, permit him that third

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Speaker 2: time three you're talking about are deeper into the game.

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Speaker 2: And be very effective with it, because I think the hitters,

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Speaker 2: if they have to respect that a little bit more,

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Speaker 2: he can take some pressure off of that splitter slider situation.

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Speaker 2: And I know he does have a variety of different pitches,

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Speaker 2: but to me, if you don't have a fastball that

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Speaker 2: you could command, eventually that other stuff gets pounded a

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Speaker 2: little bit as hitters get more onto your methods.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that, because one of the

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Speaker 1: things I'm most impressed about with Paul Skeins is his command.

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Speaker 1: You know, he is a guy obviously throwing one hundred

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Speaker 1: miles an hour, and we're not used to guys spotting

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Speaker 1: it up. But you know, for a guy who does

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Speaker 1: throw this many pitches and has velocity, to me, I'm

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Speaker 1: super impressed that just about everything that comes out of

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Speaker 1: his hand is forcing a swing decision by the hitter.

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Speaker 1: Everything is. He's enough around the zone that, you know,

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Speaker 1: those waste pitches where he just lose it and the

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Speaker 1: hitter just dismisses it right out of the hand. He

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Speaker 1: throws very few of those. Joe. For a big guy

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Speaker 1: with great power, he's almost like a finesse pitcher who

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Speaker 1: can throw a hundred the way he's just around the

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Speaker 1: edges of the plate. He's been throwing sixty eight percent strikes.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he does get a lot of foul balls

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Speaker 1: because again, the fastball properties to me is not so

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Speaker 1: much swing and miss as it is, you know, getting

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Speaker 1: weaker contact, but a lot of foul balls. So his

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Speaker 1: pitch counts are going to get up. But I'm telling you,

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Speaker 1: I'm just really impressed by the way this guy can pitch.

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Speaker 1: I thought he was a velocity guy. He's way more

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Speaker 1: than that. And one more thing, Joe, the Pirates are

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Speaker 1: now six and one when he takes the ball, and

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Speaker 1: you know what it's like as a manager. You've got

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Speaker 1: somebody sitting there lined up in a series, and whether

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Speaker 1: you're going good or you're going bad, you're thinking, I've

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Speaker 1: got schemes going tomorrow. He's going to give me six

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Speaker 1: innings and we're likely to win the game. I mean,

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Speaker 1: what a luxury that is for Derek Shelton Pittsburgh.

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Speaker 2: It is one question, do you have like the percentage

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Speaker 2: of fastball strikes that he throws, like actually in the zone,

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Speaker 2: because I just think that part of what we're seeing

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Speaker 2: is I don't know how comfortable he is it throwing

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Speaker 2: the fastball for a strike. You've ever watched his arm

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Speaker 2: behind him, It really unfolds, it unravels. He's got this

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Speaker 2: real funky thing behind him, which could be both good

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Speaker 2: and bad. Eventually, I think that all leads to it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, just to stop you there, Joe, you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 1: He does pick his elbow up higher than the shoulder.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 1: So most pitchers, you want to say, who are repeaters

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Speaker 1: in terms of year after here taking the ball, they'll

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Speaker 1: lift the ball. If that if you take the ball

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Speaker 1: out of the glove first and it comes down, then

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Speaker 1: you bring the ball up, they rotate the arm up.

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Speaker 1: He actually picks the ball up with his elbow and

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Speaker 1: then rotates the hand up. So there's a little bit

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Speaker 1: of lateness there that he has to be careful about.

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Speaker 1: Sorry up to you there, but that was a great observation.

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Speaker 2: Yet, that's the thing from the beginning and watching him listen.

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Speaker 2: The kid's great, he's got great talent. There's just certain

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Speaker 2: things that he does that kind of bothers me from experience.

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Speaker 2: I'd love to see like Todd Van remember Van Poppole.

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Speaker 1: Yes, he had a.

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Speaker 2: Little funk with his armstroke too. But he remember an

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Speaker 2: instructional league. I don't remember whatever year he was with Oakland.

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Speaker 2: We're going to play that day at Scottsdale Community College

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Speaker 2: versus Van poppol So I had all my boys jacked up.

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Speaker 2: I had this small ball machine out thrown from my

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Speaker 2: thirty three feet at it all jacked up the big

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Speaker 2: numbers to get on time against his fastball. We go

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Speaker 2: over to Scottsdale and they pulled. We didn't even pitch

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Speaker 2: that day. There's a guy that was supposed to have

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Speaker 2: this illustrious, great career based on velocity and it didn't play.

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Speaker 2: But part of it was the armstroke was kind of weird.

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Speaker 2: I thought funky a little bit. So just moving it

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Speaker 2: forward again. This is just my scouting brain working right now.

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Speaker 2: This is observation stuff going on right now. The way

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Speaker 2: is Arman furls and you described it about the elbow up, Hie.

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Speaker 2: That's just a little little concern. Although there's so many

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Speaker 2: players that have been great in our game and in

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Speaker 2: other games that have like indigenous qualities to what they

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Speaker 2: do a little bit different than everybody else. That makes

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Speaker 2: them great, and maybe that's what's going to make him great.

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Speaker 2: But those are the kind of things that when I

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Speaker 2: watch him, I'm always curious about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and listen, I'm not saying he's in this category,

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Speaker 1: but both Steven Strasburg and Mark Pryor were late loaders

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Speaker 1: where they're and Pryor was hailed as a guy with

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Speaker 1: perfect mechanics coming out of USC and that was not

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Speaker 1: the case. We know more about deliveries and what are

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Speaker 1: red flags, but I don't think Paul Skeys is as

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Speaker 1: late as Steven Strasburg, but he does have some of

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Speaker 1: those properties early in the arms swing. I like this

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Speaker 1: guy a lot. And by the way, Joe, I looked

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Speaker 1: up the question you had about fastballs in the zone.

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Speaker 1: He throws his fastball in the zone sixty five percent

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Speaker 1: of the time.

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Speaker 2: That's awesome. That's really good. If he's able to do that,

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Speaker 2: then that's that's an absolute positive.

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Speaker 1: What he's got. To me, he's got great separation between

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Speaker 1: his torso and his hips, and guys who do that

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Speaker 1: generally are going to be command guys. And he does

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Speaker 1: that at a super high speed. It's a little bit

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Speaker 1: to me reminiscent of Tim Linsingam. It's a different delivery.

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Speaker 1: But you looked at Lensingham and the way he had

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Speaker 1: the separation between the rotation of the torso and the

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Speaker 1: hips was almost perfect. And there was a lot going

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Speaker 1: on in his delivery, but his timing was exceptional, and

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Speaker 1: I see that with Paul Skeins. I think he is

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Speaker 1: a command guy with power. And I got to tell you, Joe,

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Speaker 1: I know he's only made seven starts. I want to

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Speaker 1: see this guy at the All Star Game. Listen, He's

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Speaker 1: going to have a couple of stars before we get

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Speaker 1: there anyway, But I think he's pitching his way onto

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Speaker 1: the team. I mean, besides just the fan draw, the

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Speaker 1: numbers he's putting up to me are worthy of All

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Speaker 1: Star consideration.

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Speaker 2: I agreed. I totally agree with that part of the

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Speaker 2: All Star Game should be the fact that it basically

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Speaker 2: no longer counts again, right, it should be a spectacle

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Speaker 2: for the fans and you should want to see the best.

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Speaker 2: And I don't think the lack of experience should hold

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Speaker 2: him back either. He's different, could be phenomenal actually by

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Speaker 2: the end of the season in the years to come.

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Speaker 2: So yes, I agree he's a draw and the fans

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Speaker 2: would want to see this guy. Yes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. One last thing on Paul Skeens, and I want

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Speaker 1: your take from a manager's perspective, Joe, because I was

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Speaker 1: really impressed Monday night against Cincinnati, two runners on base,

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Speaker 1: ninety six pitch of the game, He's in a jam

395
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Speaker 1: for the third time, third time around the lineup as well,

396
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Speaker 1: and he pulls one hundred out of his pocket, gets

397
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Speaker 1: a little dribbler in front of the plate from Tyler Stevenson.

398
00:19:30,598 --> 00:19:33,078
Speaker 1: I saw the competitiveness. I saw the fact that there

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Speaker 1: was still enough in the tank to complete a pitch

400
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Speaker 1: and execute a pitch when you're you know, getting towards

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Speaker 1: the end of the night with runners on base. The

402
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Speaker 1: question is now, as Pittsburgh now, which is still in

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Speaker 1: the hit thick of things in terms of at least

404
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Speaker 1: a division, but certainly the wildcard race. You know, there's

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Speaker 1: things I like about that Pirates team, and you're Derek

406
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Speaker 1: Shelton now, and you've got this, this guy who can

407
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Speaker 1: just dominate. When do you kind of let him run?

408
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Speaker 1: When do you take the governors off and say this

409
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Speaker 1: is why he's here. He's a kid who's you know,

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Speaker 1: he's big guy in a college World Series. He threw

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Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty pitches in the game, I know

412
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Speaker 1: we want to be super careful. He's only pitched on

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Speaker 1: either five days or six days of rest, and I'm

414
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Speaker 1: sure that probably won't change where they pitch him on

415
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Speaker 1: four days. By the way, four days is now short

416
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Speaker 1: rest in the major leagues. But if you're Derek Shelton,

417
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Speaker 1: then this Pittsburgh team, which I think they're capable of

418
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Speaker 1: hanging in there, Joe and being around the edges of

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Speaker 1: the race here getting a playoff spot. When do you

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Speaker 1: just say, Okay, I trust this guy to throw one

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Speaker 1: hundred and ten, one hundred and fifteen pitches. Is that

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Speaker 1: going to happen or or not?

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Speaker 2: Well, I would keep doing what they're doing right now,

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Speaker 2: quite frankly, the extra month of a season, and then

425
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Speaker 2: a little bit further regarding playoffs, it's different. He'll never

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Speaker 2: he's never experienced anything like this, so I would still

427
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Speaker 2: be careful for me. Post All Star break, something we

428
00:20:56,078 --> 00:20:58,318
Speaker 2: do with the Rays. I can't remember exactly the year

429
00:20:58,358 --> 00:21:00,398
Speaker 2: it was, but we threw Alex Cobbyn and I think

430
00:21:00,398 --> 00:21:02,878
Speaker 2: we've talked about this for a six man as we

431
00:21:02,918 --> 00:21:05,038
Speaker 2: had that he was that. I mean, we felt really

432
00:21:05,038 --> 00:21:08,158
Speaker 2: comfortable Alex being the sixth guy within our rotation. I

433
00:21:08,238 --> 00:21:11,198
Speaker 2: like the idea of post all Star break. If you

434
00:21:11,318 --> 00:21:15,078
Speaker 2: have the right kind of pitcher, somebody you like, you

435
00:21:15,118 --> 00:21:17,038
Speaker 2: throw them in as a six guy, maybe for once

436
00:21:17,118 --> 00:21:20,318
Speaker 2: twice around the rotation post all Star break, to give

437
00:21:20,358 --> 00:21:22,078
Speaker 2: these guys even a little bit more ad at rest.

438
00:21:22,118 --> 00:21:24,838
Speaker 2: And then I'd say right around August would be when

439
00:21:24,838 --> 00:21:27,398
Speaker 2: I would possibly open it up a little bit more.

440
00:21:27,478 --> 00:21:29,918
Speaker 2: I found that to be a really effective thing that

441
00:21:29,958 --> 00:21:32,358
Speaker 2: we did with the Ray, So I would play it

442
00:21:32,558 --> 00:21:35,158
Speaker 2: as is for now, because said post All Star break,

443
00:21:35,278 --> 00:21:37,198
Speaker 2: if you have that guy, throw them in there, and

444
00:21:37,238 --> 00:21:40,718
Speaker 2: here comes August, and then by that point, if everything

445
00:21:40,758 --> 00:21:43,078
Speaker 2: seems to be in good order, you feel good about innings,

446
00:21:43,118 --> 00:21:45,358
Speaker 2: and everybody talks about innings pitched. Also, I like number

447
00:21:45,398 --> 00:21:47,518
Speaker 2: of pitches thrown. I'm a big number of pitches thrown

448
00:21:47,558 --> 00:21:50,558
Speaker 2: guy too. That really tells me a lot about the

449
00:21:50,598 --> 00:21:54,438
Speaker 2: pitcher and how he's able to proceed the next time

450
00:21:54,478 --> 00:21:57,158
Speaker 2: through some five innings with you know, if he's throwing

451
00:21:57,198 --> 00:21:59,798
Speaker 2: six innings and eighty some pitches and you take them

452
00:21:59,878 --> 00:22:01,558
Speaker 2: up because of eighty pitches, that's one thing. If you

453
00:22:01,598 --> 00:22:04,678
Speaker 2: throw six in one hundred and ten, that's somethingmpletely different.

454
00:22:04,718 --> 00:22:06,958
Speaker 2: And I would look at the next start based more

455
00:22:07,038 --> 00:22:09,238
Speaker 2: on how many pitches the guy through the last time

456
00:22:09,518 --> 00:22:11,158
Speaker 2: as opposed to the number of innings that he threw

457
00:22:11,278 --> 00:22:14,598
Speaker 2: the previous time out. I've always been into that number

458
00:22:14,638 --> 00:22:16,718
Speaker 2: of pitches thrown. I've always do the math during the game.

459
00:22:16,758 --> 00:22:19,358
Speaker 2: You always love that fifteen pitches per inning is always

460
00:22:19,398 --> 00:22:21,758
Speaker 2: the perfect mark for me. I used to start taking

461
00:22:22,278 --> 00:22:24,438
Speaker 2: number of pitches per game and average them Mountain try

462
00:22:24,438 --> 00:22:26,958
Speaker 2: to figure out the optimal number for each particular starting

463
00:22:26,958 --> 00:22:29,518
Speaker 2: pitcher that I had, so as it moves forward, I

464
00:22:29,558 --> 00:22:32,798
Speaker 2: would try to stay away from the innings as much,

465
00:22:33,558 --> 00:22:36,358
Speaker 2: really focus on pitches that he's thrown per game and

466
00:22:36,438 --> 00:22:38,878
Speaker 2: really try to parcel it out from there and find

467
00:22:38,918 --> 00:22:42,638
Speaker 2: out how well he pitches after the time, after he's

468
00:22:42,678 --> 00:22:46,318
Speaker 2: thrown maybe more pitches than he had previously, or with

469
00:22:46,398 --> 00:22:49,758
Speaker 2: any kind of consistency. That's the interesting thing to me.

470
00:22:50,198 --> 00:22:52,398
Speaker 2: Figure that part out, and then you'll know how to

471
00:22:52,438 --> 00:22:53,758
Speaker 2: treat them the rest of the season.

472
00:22:54,158 --> 00:22:56,518
Speaker 1: Well, with all the governors we have on starting pitchers,

473
00:22:56,558 --> 00:22:59,518
Speaker 1: now we've lost the star quality of starting pitchers, and

474
00:22:59,558 --> 00:23:02,558
Speaker 1: Paul Skins is bringing it back. So I hope he

475
00:23:02,798 --> 00:23:04,838
Speaker 1: keeps taking the ball every day fifth or sixth day.

476
00:23:05,398 --> 00:23:09,718
Speaker 1: He's going to be super competitive and successful. There's no

477
00:23:09,838 --> 00:23:11,438
Speaker 1: question about it. It's just a matter of health. And

478
00:23:11,478 --> 00:23:13,838
Speaker 1: I think he is bringing back some of that Marquis

479
00:23:13,958 --> 00:23:17,038
Speaker 1: value of what it means, like Paul Skeens is pitching tonight,

480
00:23:17,118 --> 00:23:19,718
Speaker 1: I'm going to the game, and so far early in

481
00:23:19,758 --> 00:23:22,998
Speaker 1: his career, Paul Skeens is putting another ten thousand people

482
00:23:23,038 --> 00:23:25,118
Speaker 1: in the park at panc Park when he pitches. Their

483
00:23:25,118 --> 00:23:27,998
Speaker 1: attendance is up fifty percent when he takes the ball. Now,

484
00:23:28,038 --> 00:23:30,398
Speaker 1: maybe they've had some giveaways that boost that number, but

485
00:23:30,438 --> 00:23:33,798
Speaker 1: there's no question he is a drawing card and I

486
00:23:33,838 --> 00:23:35,398
Speaker 1: can't wait to see how it plays out for the

487
00:23:35,438 --> 00:23:37,478
Speaker 1: rest of this season because I think what you're seeing

488
00:23:37,518 --> 00:23:42,798
Speaker 1: here is real everything about him. He's a polished, pure pitcher,

489
00:23:43,118 --> 00:23:46,918
Speaker 1: not just a velocity guy. Hey, when we get back,

490
00:23:46,958 --> 00:23:50,358
Speaker 1: I mentioned something about an epidemic and this does not

491
00:23:50,478 --> 00:23:53,638
Speaker 1: involve pitchers. We've talked a lot about pitcher injuries. What

492
00:23:53,838 --> 00:23:57,398
Speaker 1: is going on with hitters. There's something that's concerning me

493
00:23:57,518 --> 00:23:59,558
Speaker 1: that's happening that's taking some of the best players off

494
00:23:59,558 --> 00:24:14,678
Speaker 1: the field. We will talk about that right after this. Well, Joe,

495
00:24:14,678 --> 00:24:17,638
Speaker 1: we were talking about the All Star Game and Paul Skeins,

496
00:24:17,678 --> 00:24:19,998
Speaker 1: we hope will get there. I think everybody wants to

497
00:24:20,038 --> 00:24:22,318
Speaker 1: see him on the field there throwing one hundred plus.

498
00:24:23,078 --> 00:24:25,438
Speaker 1: But we will not be seeing Mokei Betts at the

499
00:24:25,438 --> 00:24:28,398
Speaker 1: All Star Game. That's because he was hit by a pitch.

500
00:24:28,598 --> 00:24:32,198
Speaker 1: He's out for six to eight weeks. And when you

501
00:24:32,278 --> 00:24:35,278
Speaker 1: talk about getting hit by a pitch, you go back

502
00:24:35,318 --> 00:24:38,358
Speaker 1: to the start of the live ball era. It's nineteen twenty,

503
00:24:38,438 --> 00:24:41,198
Speaker 1: so we're talking about more than one hundred and four years.

504
00:24:41,998 --> 00:24:45,358
Speaker 1: And if I asked you the five most dangerous years

505
00:24:45,478 --> 00:24:48,878
Speaker 1: for a hitter, in other words, the rate of pitcher's

506
00:24:48,918 --> 00:24:52,718
Speaker 1: hitting batteries with pitches, I'll give you those five years.

507
00:24:53,278 --> 00:24:57,798
Speaker 1: Twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, twenty twenty two, twenty twenty three,

508
00:24:58,158 --> 00:25:02,158
Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. You see a pattern there. I mean,

509
00:25:02,438 --> 00:25:05,278
Speaker 1: it's just amazing what what's going on here, and we're

510
00:25:05,318 --> 00:25:08,158
Speaker 1: talking about batter is just can't get out of the

511
00:25:08,198 --> 00:25:12,438
Speaker 1: way with what's happening here in the game. And unfortunately,

512
00:25:12,678 --> 00:25:15,038
Speaker 1: this is what happens. Mookie Betts is having an MVP

513
00:25:15,238 --> 00:25:17,438
Speaker 1: type of season. Now he's off the field for six

514
00:25:17,518 --> 00:25:20,518
Speaker 1: to eight weeks because Dan Altavila threw a fastball lost

515
00:25:20,518 --> 00:25:22,838
Speaker 1: at arm side, ran up, smacked him on the hand

516
00:25:23,238 --> 00:25:24,958
Speaker 1: and one of the best drawing cards in the game.

517
00:25:25,038 --> 00:25:28,198
Speaker 1: One of the great players in the game is on

518
00:25:28,238 --> 00:25:30,958
Speaker 1: the shelf for a month and a half. What do

519
00:25:30,958 --> 00:25:32,158
Speaker 1: you see going on, Joe.

520
00:25:31,998 --> 00:25:34,438
Speaker 2: Well, there's two things that happened with that. The hitter's

521
00:25:34,478 --> 00:25:37,438
Speaker 2: either diving in and or the pitchers really trying to

522
00:25:37,678 --> 00:25:40,438
Speaker 2: elevate in. I'm elevated in is a really good pitch

523
00:25:40,478 --> 00:25:42,838
Speaker 2: if you could perform it. There's a slot up there

524
00:25:42,878 --> 00:25:46,918
Speaker 2: on every guy. It's rare that anybody handles elevation in. Well,

525
00:25:47,398 --> 00:25:49,278
Speaker 2: that's a rare hitter, and if he does, it's probably

526
00:25:49,358 --> 00:25:53,038
Speaker 2: just blocked out hit softly the other way. So again,

527
00:25:53,078 --> 00:25:55,558
Speaker 2: this could come down to analytics and where to pitch

528
00:25:55,558 --> 00:25:57,798
Speaker 2: certain hitters. I watch Mokie, but I don't know him

529
00:25:57,798 --> 00:25:59,558
Speaker 2: well enough to know that, but I would bet that

530
00:25:59,558 --> 00:26:01,518
Speaker 2: that might be a slot. Elevated in might be the

531
00:26:01,558 --> 00:26:03,558
Speaker 2: slot you want to go to get him out. And

532
00:26:03,598 --> 00:26:05,998
Speaker 2: then the other component of it, where guys are because

533
00:26:05,998 --> 00:26:09,118
Speaker 2: of so many breaking balls being thrown, so many guys

534
00:26:09,158 --> 00:26:12,198
Speaker 2: are kind of like I don't the term would be diving.

535
00:26:12,358 --> 00:26:14,998
Speaker 2: Although you're just really your left foots gets the right

536
00:26:14,998 --> 00:26:17,078
Speaker 2: had hit, or you get left foot really gets closer

537
00:26:17,118 --> 00:26:19,398
Speaker 2: to the plate because you're looking outside so much because

538
00:26:19,758 --> 00:26:21,678
Speaker 2: I'm going to see a breaking ball. I'm seeing so

539
00:26:21,718 --> 00:26:23,958
Speaker 2: many breaking balls, and all of a sudden, that becomes

540
00:26:24,038 --> 00:26:26,758
Speaker 2: part of your nature and your method of hitting. So

541
00:26:27,158 --> 00:26:29,638
Speaker 2: for years, I mean, you really stayed away from diving.

542
00:26:30,078 --> 00:26:31,918
Speaker 2: I mean that was a big thing as a hitting coach.

543
00:26:32,518 --> 00:26:34,758
Speaker 2: You really wanted to help your guys to learn to

544
00:26:34,798 --> 00:26:36,318
Speaker 2: not do that and still be able to cover the

545
00:26:36,358 --> 00:26:38,438
Speaker 2: outer edge of the plate. For me, the adjustment was

546
00:26:38,478 --> 00:26:40,518
Speaker 2: always by getting the back foot closer to the plate

547
00:26:40,558 --> 00:26:42,998
Speaker 2: and controlling where your front foot went based on that,

548
00:26:43,358 --> 00:26:45,798
Speaker 2: because when your backfoot gets farther away from the plate,

549
00:26:46,158 --> 00:26:48,078
Speaker 2: then you have a tendency to want to get your

550
00:26:48,278 --> 00:26:50,038
Speaker 2: diver or get your left foot more close to the

551
00:26:50,038 --> 00:26:53,358
Speaker 2: plate because that's your way to cover the outside edge.

552
00:26:53,758 --> 00:26:56,398
Speaker 2: So if I had to draw two conclusions, I would

553
00:26:56,438 --> 00:26:59,158
Speaker 2: say that the breaking ball pliforation of breaking balls being

554
00:26:59,198 --> 00:27:01,918
Speaker 2: thrown is causing some hitters to really dive or try

555
00:27:01,958 --> 00:27:05,638
Speaker 2: to protect that outside edge more. And analytically speaking, the

556
00:27:05,678 --> 00:27:09,438
Speaker 2: elevated in fastball is such an effective pitch, but the

557
00:27:09,478 --> 00:27:11,998
Speaker 2: problem is some guys that can't execute it are throwing it.

558
00:27:12,478 --> 00:27:15,038
Speaker 2: And when you can't execute and you throw it offen enough,

559
00:27:15,198 --> 00:27:17,478
Speaker 2: you're going to hit some guys. So I don't think

560
00:27:17,518 --> 00:27:20,478
Speaker 2: there's anything sinister behind all this. But more than anything,

561
00:27:20,518 --> 00:27:22,598
Speaker 2: I think if I had to conclude two things, I

562
00:27:22,598 --> 00:27:25,838
Speaker 2: would say that those two ideas may be at the

563
00:27:25,838 --> 00:27:28,078
Speaker 2: top of the list as to why where guys are

564
00:27:28,078 --> 00:27:28,598
Speaker 2: getting hit.

565
00:27:28,878 --> 00:27:31,358
Speaker 1: Now, that's very interesting because I'm going to go in

566
00:27:31,398 --> 00:27:35,358
Speaker 1: a completely opposite direction. Cool, I'm gonna blame the pictures, Okay.

567
00:27:35,718 --> 00:27:38,838
Speaker 1: Dan Altavilla was the pitcher. The catcher sets up for

568
00:27:38,918 --> 00:27:44,478
Speaker 1: a four seen fastball away. Dan Altavilla throws ninety eight

569
00:27:44,558 --> 00:27:46,478
Speaker 1: miles an hour. That pitch was ninety seven point nine

570
00:27:46,478 --> 00:27:49,638
Speaker 1: miles an hour. He completely lost it armside, complete other

571
00:27:49,718 --> 00:27:52,358
Speaker 1: side of the plate. It actually had some run on it,

572
00:27:52,438 --> 00:27:54,918
Speaker 1: which you normally don't see that much run on a

573
00:27:54,998 --> 00:27:59,118
Speaker 1: four seing fastball. But he's a low slot guy who

574
00:27:59,198 --> 00:28:02,718
Speaker 1: throws in the upper nineties, and quite frankly, he's like

575
00:28:02,758 --> 00:28:05,118
Speaker 1: a lot of pitchers these days. They throw hard, but

576
00:28:05,158 --> 00:28:09,278
Speaker 1: they don't have command. And the two seemer is coming

577
00:28:09,318 --> 00:28:12,118
Speaker 1: back in the game. There's no question about that. And

578
00:28:12,158 --> 00:28:14,678
Speaker 1: when I say a two seamer, it's not necessarily a

579
00:28:14,758 --> 00:28:17,278
Speaker 1: true sinker the way you think of those ground balls,

580
00:28:17,278 --> 00:28:21,198
Speaker 1: but hard two seamers that run in on right handers

581
00:28:21,198 --> 00:28:23,438
Speaker 1: that set up pitches away. You see a lot of

582
00:28:23,478 --> 00:28:26,838
Speaker 1: pitchers Zach Wheelers as good as anybody, and it's hard

583
00:28:26,838 --> 00:28:28,918
Speaker 1: to classify that as a sinker. But I call it

584
00:28:28,958 --> 00:28:30,918
Speaker 1: a hard two seemer. So we're seeing a lot of

585
00:28:30,958 --> 00:28:33,518
Speaker 1: those right on right, left on left, where it's arm

586
00:28:33,598 --> 00:28:36,118
Speaker 1: side to the hitter, you lose the pitch arm side,

587
00:28:36,238 --> 00:28:38,278
Speaker 1: you're going to hit the guy. In this case, it's

588
00:28:38,318 --> 00:28:41,038
Speaker 1: a four seam fastball completely loses on the other side

589
00:28:41,038 --> 00:28:43,758
Speaker 1: of the plate. And I think hitting is more dangerous

590
00:28:43,758 --> 00:28:47,118
Speaker 1: than ever because pitchers are chasing velocity and they're getting

591
00:28:47,198 --> 00:28:50,678
Speaker 1: the big leagues without commanding the fastball. And I think

592
00:28:50,838 --> 00:28:52,958
Speaker 1: just sprayed fastballs have a lot to do with it.

593
00:28:53,078 --> 00:28:56,958
Speaker 1: Guys getting hit. Now, if you include cutters, fastballs take

594
00:28:57,078 --> 00:29:00,878
Speaker 1: up fifty five percent of pitches in the game today,

595
00:29:00,878 --> 00:29:03,918
Speaker 1: If you take cutters out, it's about forty seven forty eight,

596
00:29:04,398 --> 00:29:08,638
Speaker 1: But say fifty five percent including cutters are fastballs. The

597
00:29:08,718 --> 00:29:13,838
Speaker 1: hit by pitches, fifty nine percent of those are fastballs.

598
00:29:14,118 --> 00:29:19,238
Speaker 1: So fastballs generally are the bigger problem here. And listen,

599
00:29:19,238 --> 00:29:21,518
Speaker 1: you get hit with you know, ninety eight and above,

600
00:29:21,998 --> 00:29:25,038
Speaker 1: you get a good chance of breaking something. So I think

601
00:29:25,118 --> 00:29:26,878
Speaker 1: we have a lot of guys in the game who

602
00:29:27,078 --> 00:29:31,038
Speaker 1: chasing spin, chasing velocity, and if you mentioned to them

603
00:29:31,078 --> 00:29:33,438
Speaker 1: the word command, they're like, well, you know, catcher sets

604
00:29:33,518 --> 00:29:34,838
Speaker 1: up the middle of the plate and I'll try to

605
00:29:34,838 --> 00:29:36,358
Speaker 1: get the ball there somewhere around there.

606
00:29:36,558 --> 00:29:39,958
Speaker 2: You're right, been in a lot of meetings where pitchers

607
00:29:40,078 --> 00:29:42,718
Speaker 2: that they're not they're not being taught to pitch or

608
00:29:42,758 --> 00:29:45,478
Speaker 2: being taught to throw in the rock throwers, they're just

609
00:29:45,478 --> 00:29:47,438
Speaker 2: trying to throw the ball as hard as they possibly can.

610
00:29:48,078 --> 00:29:50,438
Speaker 2: And in the meetings you will hear oftentimes just to

611
00:29:50,478 --> 00:29:53,078
Speaker 2: the catcher, just sit down the middle, because when these

612
00:29:53,118 --> 00:29:55,398
Speaker 2: guys try to sit on edges, it doesn't matter because

613
00:29:55,398 --> 00:29:58,638
Speaker 2: these guys can't hit edges. So it's really become to

614
00:29:58,678 --> 00:30:00,278
Speaker 2: that point where you just try to throw the ball

615
00:30:00,318 --> 00:30:02,318
Speaker 2: down the middle, knowing that it's not going to go

616
00:30:02,358 --> 00:30:05,518
Speaker 2: down the middle more often than not. So that's I've

617
00:30:05,558 --> 00:30:09,758
Speaker 2: been part of those meetings. Also one hundred percent right

618
00:30:09,798 --> 00:30:14,518
Speaker 2: about the chasing of velocity and the fact that ConTroll

619
00:30:14,518 --> 00:30:18,238
Speaker 2: and command is really not an issue as it had

620
00:30:18,238 --> 00:30:21,798
Speaker 2: been anymore, And for me, for so many years, often

621
00:30:21,878 --> 00:30:24,038
Speaker 2: thought in order to be a big league pitcher, we

622
00:30:24,118 --> 00:30:27,158
Speaker 2: always talked about being able to control and command your

623
00:30:27,158 --> 00:30:30,318
Speaker 2: fastball in order to be a major league pitcher. We

624
00:30:30,358 --> 00:30:32,598
Speaker 2: always thought that was the benchmark, that that was the

625
00:30:33,958 --> 00:30:36,678
Speaker 2: one area where we wanted our guys to really strive

626
00:30:36,798 --> 00:30:38,878
Speaker 2: to become good at because we thought everything would play

627
00:30:38,918 --> 00:30:42,438
Speaker 2: off of that, whereas today it's just more about the

628
00:30:42,878 --> 00:30:46,598
Speaker 2: scribing is for velocity more than it is to be

629
00:30:46,638 --> 00:30:49,318
Speaker 2: able to pitch ability and be able to command pitches

630
00:30:49,318 --> 00:30:51,358
Speaker 2: in and out. So I do agree with what you

631
00:30:51,478 --> 00:30:54,678
Speaker 2: just said, but again I also believe the in meetings

632
00:30:54,678 --> 00:30:57,438
Speaker 2: and stuff, the elevated ind component of it is there.

633
00:30:57,478 --> 00:31:00,998
Speaker 2: But in a situation you're talking about again, without really

634
00:31:01,038 --> 00:31:02,998
Speaker 2: good command of what you're doing, you pull off your

635
00:31:02,998 --> 00:31:05,238
Speaker 2: pitch and it's going to run in exactly like you

636
00:31:05,278 --> 00:31:08,398
Speaker 2: did to him. And last point, I still believe like

637
00:31:08,438 --> 00:31:11,798
Speaker 2: the hitters having to protect away because of so many

638
00:31:11,798 --> 00:31:14,358
Speaker 2: breaking balls, I think this they all conspire to get

639
00:31:14,358 --> 00:31:15,878
Speaker 2: to the point where a lot of guys are getting hit.

640
00:31:16,358 --> 00:31:18,638
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Joe getting out of the way of

641
00:31:18,798 --> 00:31:20,958
Speaker 1: a pitch that's coming at you at ninety eight. It's

642
00:31:20,998 --> 00:31:25,078
Speaker 1: almost impossible, especially when there's armside run the same sided

643
00:31:25,158 --> 00:31:30,998
Speaker 1: hitter where it's literally diving in toward you. It's so difficult.

644
00:31:31,038 --> 00:31:33,278
Speaker 1: I had a good conversation with Dave Roberts the other

645
00:31:33,358 --> 00:31:37,398
Speaker 1: day about Corey Seger, and obviously you matched up against

646
00:31:37,478 --> 00:31:40,678
Speaker 1: him a lot, and the way Corey Seger fills up

647
00:31:40,718 --> 00:31:43,078
Speaker 1: the batter's box. He's a big dude. If you see

648
00:31:43,078 --> 00:31:46,198
Speaker 1: Corey in person, he's even bigger than you think he is,

649
00:31:46,278 --> 00:31:48,758
Speaker 1: just in terms of how broad he is and his

650
00:31:48,798 --> 00:31:51,798
Speaker 1: shoulders and his height, everything about him. He fills up

651
00:31:51,798 --> 00:31:54,758
Speaker 1: the batter's box. He takes that wide stance and he

652
00:31:54,798 --> 00:31:58,158
Speaker 1: does not move Joe, I mean, he does not give ground.

653
00:31:58,758 --> 00:32:02,438
Speaker 1: And what Dave was talking about was exactly that, that

654
00:32:02,518 --> 00:32:05,438
Speaker 1: you can't scare him off the plate. You know, there

655
00:32:05,438 --> 00:32:07,878
Speaker 1: are some guys, and I know the Yankees used to

656
00:32:07,958 --> 00:32:11,038
Speaker 1: talk about this with Manny Ramirez and Alex Rodriguez and

657
00:32:11,078 --> 00:32:14,798
Speaker 1: some hitters. You can throw them hard in and that

658
00:32:14,918 --> 00:32:17,158
Speaker 1: will open up the outside part of the plate because

659
00:32:17,158 --> 00:32:19,958
Speaker 1: they don't like the ball in. Some hitters are I

660
00:32:19,998 --> 00:32:23,318
Speaker 1: hate to use the word afraid, but the ball inside

661
00:32:24,198 --> 00:32:25,918
Speaker 1: does have them jump out of the way. We see

662
00:32:25,958 --> 00:32:27,718
Speaker 1: it all the time to come back two seamer at

663
00:32:27,718 --> 00:32:29,798
Speaker 1: the hips, where a hitter will jump out of the way. Well,

664
00:32:29,878 --> 00:32:31,998
Speaker 1: Corey Seeger is one of those hitters. He's not going

665
00:32:32,078 --> 00:32:33,918
Speaker 1: to jump out of the way if that come back

666
00:32:33,958 --> 00:32:36,398
Speaker 1: two seemers coming at his hip. He's staying right there.

667
00:32:36,758 --> 00:32:39,238
Speaker 1: And it's interesting to me, Joe. The guys can get

668
00:32:39,278 --> 00:32:42,798
Speaker 1: to the big leagues. Some never give ground and some

669
00:32:42,878 --> 00:32:45,078
Speaker 1: and you know who those hitters were. You knew you

670
00:32:45,158 --> 00:32:47,838
Speaker 1: could push them off the plate and sort of dictate

671
00:32:47,958 --> 00:32:50,878
Speaker 1: at bats by doing that. You know, it's a skill

672
00:32:50,998 --> 00:32:53,958
Speaker 1: that we don't see as much anymore. Roger Clemens used

673
00:32:53,998 --> 00:32:57,038
Speaker 1: to call it moving a hitter's feet. I mean, he

674
00:32:57,198 --> 00:32:59,998
Speaker 1: was really going after hitters, and he made it sound

675
00:33:00,038 --> 00:33:02,438
Speaker 1: like he was, you know, helping a buddy move furniture.

676
00:33:03,358 --> 00:33:06,878
Speaker 1: We gotta move the feet. We don't see as much

677
00:33:06,878 --> 00:33:09,278
Speaker 1: of that. But you know, Joe, there are certain hitters

678
00:33:09,318 --> 00:33:12,518
Speaker 1: where you can dictate in a bet by pitching them

679
00:33:12,518 --> 00:33:14,318
Speaker 1: hard in and they don't like the ball in.

680
00:33:14,878 --> 00:33:17,478
Speaker 2: One hundred percent, that's exactly right. And in there's those

681
00:33:17,518 --> 00:33:20,438
Speaker 2: that are, like you said, the most more stoic types

682
00:33:20,518 --> 00:33:24,078
Speaker 2: Anthony Rizzo, I think in today's game really represents that well.

683
00:33:24,718 --> 00:33:26,638
Speaker 2: Rizz gets on the plate, stays on the plate because

684
00:33:26,678 --> 00:33:29,278
Speaker 2: he has to be there in order to be successful.

685
00:33:29,318 --> 00:33:31,478
Speaker 2: He's been hit a lot. And the thing I like

686
00:33:31,518 --> 00:33:33,358
Speaker 2: about riz and I always used to tell my hitters,

687
00:33:33,358 --> 00:33:35,238
Speaker 2: when you get hit by a pitch, you got two options.

688
00:33:35,278 --> 00:33:37,798
Speaker 2: Go to the mount or go to first base. And

689
00:33:37,878 --> 00:33:40,518
Speaker 2: so Rizz just drops the bat and runs the first

690
00:33:40,518 --> 00:33:42,118
Speaker 2: base because he knows ree set up and he knows

691
00:33:42,158 --> 00:33:45,078
Speaker 2: it's going to probably or possibly happen. And that's great.

692
00:33:45,198 --> 00:33:47,678
Speaker 2: Mo Vaughn. The thing about he used to love about

693
00:33:47,678 --> 00:33:51,198
Speaker 2: modacious Mo would get Mo would get over the plate.

694
00:33:51,838 --> 00:33:53,518
Speaker 2: He'd have his back foot at the back point of

695
00:33:53,558 --> 00:33:55,158
Speaker 2: the plate and his front foot would be, of course

696
00:33:55,158 --> 00:33:56,518
Speaker 2: a little bit in front of the plate, but he

697
00:33:56,558 --> 00:33:59,638
Speaker 2: would have the plate underneath him, basically because he felt

698
00:33:59,638 --> 00:34:01,718
Speaker 2: that was his best way to command the strike zone.

699
00:34:01,878 --> 00:34:05,318
Speaker 2: And he's, you know, Moe's pretty big, strong dude and everything.

700
00:34:05,358 --> 00:34:08,158
Speaker 2: But these are guys that weren't going to be moved.

701
00:34:08,238 --> 00:34:10,038
Speaker 2: As an example, they're not going to be moved, not

702
00:34:10,518 --> 00:34:12,558
Speaker 2: the guys that you can move. I don't even can't

703
00:34:12,598 --> 00:34:14,518
Speaker 2: think of examples off the top of my head. But

704
00:34:15,198 --> 00:34:17,558
Speaker 2: there are and that's true. I mean, you definitely want

705
00:34:17,598 --> 00:34:21,238
Speaker 2: to push them back, like right when you make them

706
00:34:21,278 --> 00:34:23,118
Speaker 2: like put their arms up in the air, push their

707
00:34:23,118 --> 00:34:25,638
Speaker 2: stomach back and like they almost like they're doing a

708
00:34:25,718 --> 00:34:27,638
Speaker 2: dance kind of a move, get in the middle of

709
00:34:27,678 --> 00:34:30,278
Speaker 2: their torso and make them react like that. A lot

710
00:34:30,278 --> 00:34:31,878
Speaker 2: of guys, you got them after that. You know you

711
00:34:31,918 --> 00:34:34,958
Speaker 2: got them after that. And there's nothing wrong with repeating that. See,

712
00:34:34,958 --> 00:34:36,878
Speaker 2: that's the big thing about pitchers that really know what

713
00:34:36,878 --> 00:34:40,998
Speaker 2: they're doing, is to repeat inside, repeat inside. Because when

714
00:34:41,038 --> 00:34:43,798
Speaker 2: you just dot them up once inside and go back away,

715
00:34:43,878 --> 00:34:46,438
Speaker 2: that can become a pattern. Hitters can make that adjustment.

716
00:34:46,478 --> 00:34:49,558
Speaker 2: But when you come in and repeat in, that definitely

717
00:34:49,918 --> 00:34:52,518
Speaker 2: makes these guys think twice. But not guys like bo

718
00:34:52,598 --> 00:34:55,278
Speaker 2: and not guys like Riz. So it takes all kinds.

719
00:34:55,878 --> 00:35:00,118
Speaker 2: But it's true the inside pitch could be a big weapon,

720
00:35:00,478 --> 00:35:02,718
Speaker 2: and to others, it's just where they need to be

721
00:35:02,998 --> 00:35:05,918
Speaker 2: in order to hit like they're capable of hitting. They

722
00:35:05,918 --> 00:35:08,598
Speaker 2: know they're gonna get hit on occasion. Got two options,

723
00:35:08,678 --> 00:35:10,078
Speaker 2: go to the mount or go to first space.

724
00:35:10,878 --> 00:35:13,958
Speaker 1: So Joe, that brings me to the always interesting topic

725
00:35:14,038 --> 00:35:18,038
Speaker 1: of intentionally hitting a batter, you know. And I know

726
00:35:18,118 --> 00:35:19,798
Speaker 1: that there used to be back in the day Tony

727
00:35:19,878 --> 00:35:22,478
Speaker 1: LaRussa used to talk about, or they said, Tony would

728
00:35:22,518 --> 00:35:24,518
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, you hit one of mine, we

729
00:35:24,638 --> 00:35:25,478
Speaker 1: hit two of yours.

730
00:35:25,558 --> 00:35:26,358
Speaker 2: Right.

731
00:35:26,638 --> 00:35:30,398
Speaker 1: I think some of that code has disappeared from the game, Joe,

732
00:35:30,918 --> 00:35:34,238
Speaker 1: But do you believe that there are still times and

733
00:35:34,718 --> 00:35:37,118
Speaker 1: I don't know if the manager would be involved in this,

734
00:35:37,278 --> 00:35:41,158
Speaker 1: but there are times when a pitcher will intentionally throw

735
00:35:41,358 --> 00:35:45,518
Speaker 1: at a batter, you know, based on what it's precipitated something.

736
00:35:45,918 --> 00:35:48,958
Speaker 2: Yeah, it should happen on occasion. But the big thing

737
00:35:48,998 --> 00:35:51,678
Speaker 2: about a professional hit you go at the thigh, you

738
00:35:51,758 --> 00:35:53,398
Speaker 2: go low, you go in the middle of the body.

739
00:35:53,438 --> 00:35:55,958
Speaker 2: You don't ever go up top with with that kind

740
00:35:55,998 --> 00:35:58,438
Speaker 2: of a message. Back in the day they did. I mean,

741
00:35:58,478 --> 00:36:00,478
Speaker 2: you talk about you know, the chin music and all

742
00:36:00,518 --> 00:36:03,878
Speaker 2: that stuff, and guys expected it. Hitters would not dig in.

743
00:36:04,238 --> 00:36:06,038
Speaker 2: They were ready for it to come at them. And

744
00:36:06,238 --> 00:36:08,318
Speaker 2: good batter and different whatever you want to describe that.

745
00:36:08,758 --> 00:36:11,198
Speaker 2: It sounds like a really mean method right in today's world,

746
00:36:11,198 --> 00:36:13,838
Speaker 2: but back then it was part of the landscape. And

747
00:36:13,838 --> 00:36:17,198
Speaker 2: that's what different pictures did in order to survive and

748
00:36:17,398 --> 00:36:21,238
Speaker 2: also to protect their own. So there is that part

749
00:36:21,278 --> 00:36:23,318
Speaker 2: of it, and you're right when it comes to these

750
00:36:23,438 --> 00:36:27,478
Speaker 2: kind of moments. In my experience, one hundred percent of

751
00:36:27,518 --> 00:36:30,318
Speaker 2: the time it came from somebody within the group. A

752
00:36:30,318 --> 00:36:33,238
Speaker 2: lot of times it's a veteran picture, veteran relief pitcher especially.

753
00:36:33,318 --> 00:36:37,158
Speaker 2: And I'll say this too, I didn't like when you

754
00:36:37,238 --> 00:36:39,238
Speaker 2: try to put that on one of my rookie pictures.

755
00:36:39,278 --> 00:36:41,398
Speaker 2: I didn't like when a rookie pitcher was asked to

756
00:36:41,438 --> 00:36:44,318
Speaker 2: do something like that. They just didn't know how quite frankly,

757
00:36:44,398 --> 00:36:47,118
Speaker 2: so I'd rather wait later in the game and give

758
00:36:47,158 --> 00:36:49,158
Speaker 2: their responsibility to a veteran, a guy that knew how

759
00:36:49,158 --> 00:36:51,238
Speaker 2: to do it a little bit more, with a little

760
00:36:51,238 --> 00:36:53,758
Speaker 2: bit more pinache, because it has to be done. I'm sorry.

761
00:36:53,758 --> 00:36:55,398
Speaker 2: I mean, people may disagree with that, but these are

762
00:36:55,398 --> 00:36:58,718
Speaker 2: the kind of things that can set it apart. I know, example,

763
00:36:58,958 --> 00:37:01,838
Speaker 2: two thousand and eight, Rays playing the Boston Red Sox

764
00:37:01,878 --> 00:37:06,318
Speaker 2: in Boston, dust up the next Shields E drills Cocoa

765
00:37:06,358 --> 00:37:08,198
Speaker 2: Crisp right in the thigh first pitch of the game,

766
00:37:08,398 --> 00:37:10,078
Speaker 2: and all hell broke loose. But that was a big

767
00:37:10,118 --> 00:37:13,918
Speaker 2: part of the ascension in the galvanizing component of our team. Again,

768
00:37:14,038 --> 00:37:17,038
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's really part of the landscape anymore,

769
00:37:17,078 --> 00:37:20,238
Speaker 2: even know if that method would take root. I don't

770
00:37:20,278 --> 00:37:22,078
Speaker 2: know how players would react to it today, but back

771
00:37:22,078 --> 00:37:25,878
Speaker 2: then they did, and I always felt like a little

772
00:37:25,878 --> 00:37:29,118
Speaker 2: bit dust up on occasion was actually good for morale

773
00:37:29,678 --> 00:37:32,078
Speaker 2: based on keeping your group together. So I know a

774
00:37:32,078 --> 00:37:33,398
Speaker 2: lot of people are going to disagree with what I'm

775
00:37:33,398 --> 00:37:35,718
Speaker 2: saying right now, and that's fine, but I'm telling here

776
00:37:35,758 --> 00:37:38,438
Speaker 2: to tell you it does matter. And when you do

777
00:37:38,518 --> 00:37:41,758
Speaker 2: things like that, the galvanizer group have each other's back,

778
00:37:41,798 --> 00:37:46,278
Speaker 2: protecting your own, it matters. So I'll always defend that concept.

779
00:37:46,518 --> 00:37:49,398
Speaker 2: I think it's appropriate. And again I'm not talking about

780
00:37:49,518 --> 00:37:52,678
Speaker 2: going high on anybody. Chuck Finley was great at picking

781
00:37:52,678 --> 00:37:54,478
Speaker 2: out a thigh, and so is James Shields.

782
00:37:54,798 --> 00:37:57,198
Speaker 1: I gotta explore that a little more, Joe, because I know,

783
00:37:57,278 --> 00:38:00,358
Speaker 1: obviously in two thousand and eight, you're ascending with the Rays,

784
00:38:00,398 --> 00:38:03,718
Speaker 1: trying to establish yourself, and I know the Red Sox

785
00:38:03,998 --> 00:38:06,438
Speaker 1: the Yankees had had their way with the Rays for years,

786
00:38:06,438 --> 00:38:08,838
Speaker 1: and I know that Pedro Martinez was part of those,

787
00:38:09,198 --> 00:38:12,358
Speaker 1: you know, intimidation tactics, if you will, pitching inside, and

788
00:38:12,398 --> 00:38:15,678
Speaker 1: he could lose the ball armside very easily, whether on

789
00:38:15,718 --> 00:38:18,278
Speaker 1: purpose or not. He hit its fair share of batters.

790
00:38:18,318 --> 00:38:22,878
Speaker 1: So what would precipitate you going after Coco Crisp in

791
00:38:22,958 --> 00:38:24,878
Speaker 1: terms of James Shields, who a guy I know you

792
00:38:24,958 --> 00:38:27,438
Speaker 1: trusted in terms of commanding that baseball where he wasn't

793
00:38:27,438 --> 00:38:29,318
Speaker 1: going to lose it up and in well, the.

794
00:38:29,358 --> 00:38:32,118
Speaker 2: Night before, we had a play at second base early

795
00:38:32,118 --> 00:38:35,558
Speaker 2: in the game. He tries to steal and Jason Bartlett

796
00:38:35,638 --> 00:38:37,118
Speaker 2: was really good to get in there early, and he

797
00:38:37,158 --> 00:38:39,838
Speaker 2: put a kneed down and he blocked him, sliding into

798
00:38:39,878 --> 00:38:42,478
Speaker 2: the bag head first, slide blocks his hand. He's out,

799
00:38:42,958 --> 00:38:45,118
Speaker 2: so he got all upset about that. A couple of

800
00:38:45,198 --> 00:38:47,958
Speaker 2: things later, he's on first base again at the ground

801
00:38:47,998 --> 00:38:50,918
Speaker 2: ball to Jason. He throws to Aki's coming across the

802
00:38:50,918 --> 00:38:53,798
Speaker 2: bag and he's like way across the bag and today's standards,

803
00:38:54,158 --> 00:38:55,598
Speaker 2: I mean, my god, he would have been called out

804
00:38:55,598 --> 00:38:57,518
Speaker 2: for the slide, but he took him out. But he

805
00:38:57,518 --> 00:39:00,998
Speaker 2: took him out with his feed up and that caused

806
00:39:00,998 --> 00:39:03,358
Speaker 2: a little bit of a ruckus. Then in the bottom

807
00:39:03,398 --> 00:39:04,878
Speaker 2: of the eighth, Na went out to take a picture

808
00:39:04,918 --> 00:39:06,798
Speaker 2: out and as I'm walking out to the mountain, I'm

809
00:39:06,838 --> 00:39:09,638
Speaker 2: yelling into Boston dugout the whole time, and Coco's on

810
00:39:09,678 --> 00:39:13,078
Speaker 2: the top rail yelling back at me, and that was great.

811
00:39:13,118 --> 00:39:15,478
Speaker 2: But all this stuff had to be done in our sport.

812
00:39:15,638 --> 00:39:17,158
Speaker 2: If you're going to take him in, and if you're

813
00:39:17,198 --> 00:39:19,438
Speaker 2: going to be top of the heap, at some point,

814
00:39:19,558 --> 00:39:21,558
Speaker 2: you got to take it. Nobody's given you anything, and

815
00:39:21,598 --> 00:39:24,278
Speaker 2: they should never give you anything. Everything has to be earned,

816
00:39:24,318 --> 00:39:27,558
Speaker 2: and sometimes it has to be earned through intimidation, just

817
00:39:27,598 --> 00:39:30,518
Speaker 2: like you said. So that all occurred, and the next

818
00:39:30,598 --> 00:39:32,358
Speaker 2: day I never said anything to Shields he and I

819
00:39:32,398 --> 00:39:34,918
Speaker 2: was hoping he didn't do it, only because he's my

820
00:39:34,958 --> 00:39:37,798
Speaker 2: starting pitcher and he's very good. But here it comes

821
00:39:37,918 --> 00:39:40,478
Speaker 2: hits him in the first pitch. There goes Coco, all

822
00:39:40,558 --> 00:39:43,878
Speaker 2: my guys reacting. We had suspensions that whole month. We

823
00:39:43,918 --> 00:39:46,638
Speaker 2: had a play around like a short short roster on

824
00:39:46,678 --> 00:39:49,518
Speaker 2: a nightly basis, I think for three weeks because different

825
00:39:49,518 --> 00:39:53,558
Speaker 2: guys were suspended at different times. But we really galvanized

826
00:39:53,558 --> 00:39:56,518
Speaker 2: through that. We became the Rays became the race pretty

827
00:39:56,558 --> 00:39:58,598
Speaker 2: much that season. In two thousand and eight, it started

828
00:39:58,598 --> 00:40:00,878
Speaker 2: with a fight with the Yankees and spring training on

829
00:40:00,878 --> 00:40:03,398
Speaker 2: a collision at to play with Francisco Cervelli got to

830
00:40:03,438 --> 00:40:05,678
Speaker 2: take it. I mean, these guys were out there bullying us,

831
00:40:05,678 --> 00:40:08,598
Speaker 2: they were intimidating us, and we kept taking it. You

832
00:40:08,678 --> 00:40:10,438
Speaker 2: take it to the point you don't take it anymore.

833
00:40:10,838 --> 00:40:12,998
Speaker 2: So I'll defend that. I thought it was the right

834
00:40:13,038 --> 00:40:14,638
Speaker 2: thing to do. I thought it guy sounded the great,

835
00:40:14,718 --> 00:40:18,358
Speaker 2: nobody got hurt, and message sent and eventually the Rays

836
00:40:18,398 --> 00:40:19,078
Speaker 2: became the race.

837
00:40:20,078 --> 00:40:22,798
Speaker 1: I love that story, and thanks for sharing that, Joe,

838
00:40:22,798 --> 00:40:26,278
Speaker 1: because you know what, it sounds like, it's a story

839
00:40:26,278 --> 00:40:29,238
Speaker 1: from the nineteen thirties, but it's two thousand and eight.

840
00:40:29,598 --> 00:40:33,998
Speaker 1: Everything you're saying about that story just does not happen

841
00:40:34,038 --> 00:40:36,598
Speaker 1: in today's game. The infielder putting his knee down to

842
00:40:36,598 --> 00:40:40,398
Speaker 1: block the base can't do it anymore. The hard slide

843
00:40:40,398 --> 00:40:42,278
Speaker 1: in the second base to break up a double play

844
00:40:42,558 --> 00:40:45,158
Speaker 1: can't do it anymore. The guy in the opposing team

845
00:40:45,198 --> 00:40:47,158
Speaker 1: getting on the top step of the dugout and yelling

846
00:40:47,198 --> 00:40:50,838
Speaker 1: at the opposing manager. Nobody does that anymore. Nobody's jeering

847
00:40:50,838 --> 00:40:52,758
Speaker 1: the other team from their own dugout. They're all in

848
00:40:52,758 --> 00:40:55,958
Speaker 1: the same fraternity. They're all pretty much buddies. The pitcher

849
00:40:55,958 --> 00:40:57,838
Speaker 1: commanding the baseball enough to hit a guy in the

850
00:40:57,878 --> 00:41:00,518
Speaker 1: right spot. A lot of guys can't do that anymore.

851
00:41:00,718 --> 00:41:02,798
Speaker 1: I mean, that story he's told is a great story,

852
00:41:02,838 --> 00:41:05,958
Speaker 1: but it sounds like it's from a completely different era

853
00:41:06,358 --> 00:41:07,998
Speaker 1: from the game we're seeing today.

854
00:41:08,718 --> 00:41:13,718
Speaker 2: Well that's why I keep stopping and protecting myself in

855
00:41:13,718 --> 00:41:16,958
Speaker 2: a sense. But it's true, anybody that played the game

856
00:41:17,558 --> 00:41:20,078
Speaker 2: for I don't know, up until maybe what twenty fifteen

857
00:41:20,158 --> 00:41:23,478
Speaker 2: or so twenty sixteen, we had some dust ups to there.

858
00:41:24,038 --> 00:41:27,438
Speaker 2: It just seems to have shifted so much more recently.

859
00:41:27,838 --> 00:41:30,478
Speaker 2: A lot of it has to do with legislation, different

860
00:41:30,558 --> 00:41:33,998
Speaker 2: rules that have been put in effect, and the idea of

861
00:41:34,038 --> 00:41:36,078
Speaker 2: protecting the players. They keep them on the field, right

862
00:41:36,118 --> 00:41:38,198
Speaker 2: down to the posey role at to play at the

863
00:41:38,238 --> 00:41:41,798
Speaker 2: plate the time utly pancake the guy second base, which

864
00:41:41,838 --> 00:41:43,718
Speaker 2: is the one slide I didn't agree with out of

865
00:41:43,758 --> 00:41:46,318
Speaker 2: all of them. But all these roles that have been

866
00:41:46,318 --> 00:41:49,678
Speaker 2: put in effect have really made the game more Gentleinally,

867
00:41:50,038 --> 00:41:52,758
Speaker 2: I don't think it's good. I don't want to see

868
00:41:52,758 --> 00:41:55,238
Speaker 2: guys getting hurt, but I like to see games played aggressively.

869
00:41:55,878 --> 00:41:58,038
Speaker 2: And again, if you want to bring your group together

870
00:41:58,718 --> 00:42:02,478
Speaker 2: and protect one another, it matters, It really matters when

871
00:42:02,518 --> 00:42:05,958
Speaker 2: your group plays that way, goes to the ballpark that way,

872
00:42:06,038 --> 00:42:08,478
Speaker 2: game over, has a beer with each other, which that

873
00:42:08,518 --> 00:42:11,838
Speaker 2: doesn't happen either anymore. Nobody nobody hangs anymore after games.

874
00:42:12,238 --> 00:42:14,998
Speaker 2: It pretty much everybody goes their own separate way. And

875
00:42:15,318 --> 00:42:17,118
Speaker 2: there was a lot to be said for that too,

876
00:42:17,638 --> 00:42:22,398
Speaker 2: when guys bonded postgame and talked about it, and you

877
00:42:22,438 --> 00:42:24,638
Speaker 2: could talk to all the veterans, and I swear, I

878
00:42:24,638 --> 00:42:26,478
Speaker 2: mean every time. I just was just in New York

879
00:42:26,518 --> 00:42:30,078
Speaker 2: at the Yogi Tournament talking to Willie Randolph, a little

880
00:42:30,078 --> 00:42:33,598
Speaker 2: bit of David Kohne Ron Gidrey, who was an absolute Jim,

881
00:42:33,718 --> 00:42:35,598
Speaker 2: and so is Willie. Willie, you could see why these

882
00:42:35,678 --> 00:42:38,958
Speaker 2: Yankees were so good. Their former players are like, they're

883
00:42:39,078 --> 00:42:41,158
Speaker 2: like the most awesome people you've ever met in your life.

884
00:42:41,558 --> 00:42:44,958
Speaker 2: But everybody laments what's going on in a sense and

885
00:42:44,998 --> 00:42:47,478
Speaker 2: how different it is. And I know change is not

886
00:42:47,598 --> 00:42:51,318
Speaker 2: always wonderful. I'm into change. I am so into change.

887
00:42:51,478 --> 00:42:53,438
Speaker 2: The great line I think was Jack, Well, it's changed

888
00:42:53,478 --> 00:42:56,638
Speaker 2: before you have to, And that's a good line, and

889
00:42:56,678 --> 00:42:58,318
Speaker 2: I always keep that in the back of my mind.

890
00:42:58,758 --> 00:43:00,918
Speaker 2: So when you hear the word change, everybody all and

891
00:43:01,198 --> 00:43:04,718
Speaker 2: the word progressive, everybody always assumes it's a positive. I don't.

892
00:43:05,158 --> 00:43:07,198
Speaker 2: I have to evaluate what the change is and what

893
00:43:07,238 --> 00:43:10,718
Speaker 2: the progressive thought is before I try to tell myself

894
00:43:10,718 --> 00:43:12,558
Speaker 2: whether I think it's good or not. I don't think

895
00:43:12,558 --> 00:43:14,598
Speaker 2: everybody does that. I think whenever they hear change or

896
00:43:14,638 --> 00:43:18,798
Speaker 2: progressive or progressive thoughts or progressive ism, everybody automatically assumes

897
00:43:18,798 --> 00:43:20,958
Speaker 2: it's for the better or it's for good. I don't

898
00:43:20,998 --> 00:43:22,798
Speaker 2: agree with that. I think we all have to think

899
00:43:22,838 --> 00:43:26,038
Speaker 2: for ourselves and evaluate what we're seeing, what we're hearing,

900
00:43:26,038 --> 00:43:28,078
Speaker 2: and what the change and the thought is and make

901
00:43:28,158 --> 00:43:31,758
Speaker 2: up our own minds. Group think really is getting way

902
00:43:31,798 --> 00:43:34,598
Speaker 2: too over the top. Everybody wants to be the same

903
00:43:34,678 --> 00:43:36,958
Speaker 2: dude and think the same way, and that's part of

904
00:43:36,998 --> 00:43:38,718
Speaker 2: why it's become less attractive.

905
00:43:39,398 --> 00:43:43,118
Speaker 1: Well, listen, I'm all for player safety, but to me,

906
00:43:43,638 --> 00:43:46,078
Speaker 1: baseball will have jumped the shark when it goes to

907
00:43:46,358 --> 00:43:50,078
Speaker 1: the safety base at first base. There's no need for that,

908
00:43:50,198 --> 00:43:52,078
Speaker 1: and I know, you know, you can see it in

909
00:43:52,158 --> 00:43:55,838
Speaker 1: softball sometimes and it's been tried in other areas, but

910
00:43:55,878 --> 00:43:58,758
Speaker 1: we don't need the double base at first base just

911
00:43:58,838 --> 00:44:02,198
Speaker 1: because there's a one in a million chance that there's

912
00:44:02,238 --> 00:44:04,118
Speaker 1: going to be a collision there at first base. We

913
00:44:04,158 --> 00:44:08,438
Speaker 1: can't mitigate every single safety risk on the baseball field.

914
00:44:08,478 --> 00:44:10,598
Speaker 1: I do not want to see the double base at

915
00:44:10,638 --> 00:44:12,078
Speaker 1: first base, Joe.

916
00:44:11,638 --> 00:44:14,358
Speaker 2: Of course not if you want to, like I said,

917
00:44:14,358 --> 00:44:16,358
Speaker 2: if you want to do some good things, figure out

918
00:44:16,398 --> 00:44:19,358
Speaker 2: how to homogenize the check swing or the back call,

919
00:44:19,678 --> 00:44:21,518
Speaker 2: or get rid of the lane at first base, and

920
00:44:21,838 --> 00:44:24,598
Speaker 2: really try to figure that out. Where there's some outs

921
00:44:24,638 --> 00:44:25,918
Speaker 2: being made where all you have to do is a

922
00:44:25,958 --> 00:44:27,798
Speaker 2: catcher is try to hit the runner in the back

923
00:44:28,158 --> 00:44:29,878
Speaker 2: because you have you can't make the place and just

924
00:44:29,918 --> 00:44:31,638
Speaker 2: hit him in the back and the runners out. There's

925
00:44:31,638 --> 00:44:34,158
Speaker 2: so many different areas I think to attack as opposed

926
00:44:34,158 --> 00:44:36,878
Speaker 2: to these concerns with safety, and that's all being brought

927
00:44:36,878 --> 00:44:40,558
Speaker 2: about by you know, different people crying about different things.

928
00:44:40,558 --> 00:44:42,198
Speaker 2: But the game is a game, and it's supposed to

929
00:44:42,198 --> 00:44:45,038
Speaker 2: be tough. It's not supposed to be easy. It's there's

930
00:44:45,198 --> 00:44:48,558
Speaker 2: there's going to be injuries. There is. It's baseball, it's athletics,

931
00:44:48,558 --> 00:44:52,918
Speaker 2: it's athletes, football, basketball, everything's the same, man, So you

932
00:44:53,078 --> 00:44:56,558
Speaker 2: just can't keep attempting to legislate safety. There are some

933
00:44:56,638 --> 00:44:59,958
Speaker 2: things I'd have to really think about what I think

934
00:44:59,998 --> 00:45:02,158
Speaker 2: has come across the board that I think is a

935
00:45:02,158 --> 00:45:04,438
Speaker 2: good thing. The best thing that we you've done is

936
00:45:04,478 --> 00:45:07,958
Speaker 2: the pitchclock. To me, that's the number one best changed

937
00:45:08,078 --> 00:45:10,358
Speaker 2: rule in the history of the game. I love the

938
00:45:10,358 --> 00:45:12,758
Speaker 2: pitch clock. I also could say like the PitchCom I

939
00:45:12,798 --> 00:45:16,438
Speaker 2: like the ability to call pitches more easily without the

940
00:45:16,478 --> 00:45:20,358
Speaker 2: concern of somebody stealing your signs, etc. Those are really

941
00:45:20,638 --> 00:45:22,718
Speaker 2: really well thought out good stuff. But the other things,

942
00:45:22,758 --> 00:45:25,438
Speaker 2: like I said, that's when you talk about changing progressive

943
00:45:25,598 --> 00:45:28,398
Speaker 2: as being good. But I have to evaluate and say, no,

944
00:45:28,678 --> 00:45:29,518
Speaker 2: I'm not into it.

945
00:45:29,758 --> 00:45:32,038
Speaker 1: Well, if you want the look of old school baseball,

946
00:45:32,078 --> 00:45:34,678
Speaker 1: you're getting it. This week, this is going to be

947
00:45:34,798 --> 00:45:39,318
Speaker 1: the most anticipated game that I can remember ever going

948
00:45:39,358 --> 00:45:41,758
Speaker 1: to see. I can't wait for this game. We will

949
00:45:41,798 --> 00:45:44,278
Speaker 1: talk about it next here the Book of Joe podcast.

950
00:45:44,398 --> 00:45:48,278
Speaker 1: It is MLB at rickwood Field coming out on Thursday.

951
00:45:48,398 --> 00:46:02,358
Speaker 1: Right after this we'll dive in rickwood Field. Joe is

952
00:46:02,438 --> 00:46:08,358
Speaker 1: America's oldest ball It opened in August of nineteen ten,

953
00:46:08,998 --> 00:46:12,158
Speaker 1: so yes, it's older than Wrigley Field en Fenway Park,

954
00:46:12,998 --> 00:46:15,638
Speaker 1: and MLB is playing a game there Thursday night as

955
00:46:15,638 --> 00:46:18,598
Speaker 1: a tribute to the Negro Leagues and to especially Willy

956
00:46:18,678 --> 00:46:23,198
Speaker 1: Mays the Giants against the Cardinals, and at rickwood Field

957
00:46:23,238 --> 00:46:29,078
Speaker 1: was the home for the Birmingham Black Barons throughout the thirties, forties, fifties,

958
00:46:29,798 --> 00:46:32,958
Speaker 1: actually beginning in nineteen twenty one, and the history in

959
00:46:32,998 --> 00:46:36,518
Speaker 1: this ballpark is like nothing else. Almost half the Hall

960
00:46:36,558 --> 00:46:41,078
Speaker 1: of Fame members have played at rickwood Field baseball. The

961
00:46:41,198 --> 00:46:43,918
Speaker 1: National American League teams used to play games, their exhibition

962
00:46:43,958 --> 00:46:46,718
Speaker 1: games on their way north from spring training. Babe Ruth

963
00:46:46,758 --> 00:46:49,918
Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties was playing there virtually every year.

964
00:46:50,358 --> 00:46:53,118
Speaker 1: There was a week in nineteen forty eight where the

965
00:46:53,238 --> 00:46:55,958
Speaker 1: Yankees and Red Sox played exhibition games there and the

966
00:46:55,998 --> 00:46:59,958
Speaker 1: Birmingham Barons played in that week. You had Joe DiMaggio,

967
00:47:00,118 --> 00:47:03,758
Speaker 1: Ted Williams, and Willie Mays all playing at rickwood Field.

968
00:47:04,038 --> 00:47:06,878
Speaker 1: Just the history is amazing, but especially to recognize the

969
00:47:06,918 --> 00:47:09,878
Speaker 1: Negro Leagues and their importance not only to baseball but

970
00:47:09,918 --> 00:47:12,518
Speaker 1: to American culture. I love the line from I think

971
00:47:12,558 --> 00:47:15,318
Speaker 1: it was Jackie Robinson talking about how the Negro leagues

972
00:47:15,398 --> 00:47:19,398
Speaker 1: really were the laboratory for cultural change, racial change in America.

973
00:47:19,718 --> 00:47:22,198
Speaker 1: That you could play a game together and we all

974
00:47:22,238 --> 00:47:25,798
Speaker 1: can learn from the lessons that baseball established. And of course,

975
00:47:25,798 --> 00:47:28,798
Speaker 1: the Negro leagues were established because they weren't allowed to

976
00:47:28,798 --> 00:47:31,318
Speaker 1: play in the National and American leagues. And it wasn't

977
00:47:31,398 --> 00:47:34,718
Speaker 1: until Jackie broke that barrier at nineteen forty seven and

978
00:47:34,878 --> 00:47:37,838
Speaker 1: really kind of marked the decline of the Negro leagues

979
00:47:37,878 --> 00:47:40,558
Speaker 1: because now the opportunity was there to play in the

980
00:47:40,678 --> 00:47:43,678
Speaker 1: National League at American leagues. But it's one of the

981
00:47:43,678 --> 00:47:48,078
Speaker 1: best things baseball has ever done. Joe, the place looks amazing.

982
00:47:48,118 --> 00:47:50,478
Speaker 1: People are not going to believe what this old ballpark

983
00:47:50,558 --> 00:47:53,078
Speaker 1: looks like. I'm with you on the pitch clock. To me,

984
00:47:53,118 --> 00:47:55,318
Speaker 1: it's the greatest thing to happen to baseball since Harry M.

985
00:47:55,318 --> 00:47:57,878
Speaker 1: Stevens invented the hot dog at a ballpark back in

986
00:47:57,918 --> 00:48:00,198
Speaker 1: the turn of the century two centuries ago. And now

987
00:48:00,278 --> 00:48:03,158
Speaker 1: we've got this game on Thursday night. It's just going

988
00:48:03,198 --> 00:48:06,398
Speaker 1: to be a beautiful night and a meaningful night for baseball.

989
00:48:07,238 --> 00:48:09,678
Speaker 2: I love all of that. You know, I'm a historian

990
00:48:09,678 --> 00:48:13,078
Speaker 2: with the game myself. I'm just thinking, as you're talking,

991
00:48:13,598 --> 00:48:17,118
Speaker 2: I'm just waxing internally. Here be a great place to

992
00:48:17,118 --> 00:48:19,358
Speaker 2: go to reconnect with the game. It's almost like I

993
00:48:19,438 --> 00:48:21,838
Speaker 2: like to go sit in a church when nobody's in it.

994
00:48:21,998 --> 00:48:24,078
Speaker 2: I'll go sit in the back of a church and

995
00:48:24,118 --> 00:48:26,638
Speaker 2: just sit there and reflect. It's almost like Rerick Wuid

996
00:48:26,678 --> 00:48:29,198
Speaker 2: feel would be the perfect place to just go sit

997
00:48:29,238 --> 00:48:32,478
Speaker 2: in there, sit down, look out over the field and

998
00:48:32,558 --> 00:48:37,078
Speaker 2: try to reimagine everything you just talked about and reconnect

999
00:48:37,078 --> 00:48:40,078
Speaker 2: with the game. I think that's awesome. I hope everybody

1000
00:48:40,638 --> 00:48:43,478
Speaker 2: or many people see it in that same vein this

1001
00:48:43,678 --> 00:48:47,878
Speaker 2: real reconnection to a simpler time, which still is the

1002
00:48:47,918 --> 00:48:51,638
Speaker 2: most attractive method of living to me in that simple way.

1003
00:48:52,198 --> 00:48:54,958
Speaker 2: So I'm definitely gonna be watching this. It's great that

1004
00:48:54,998 --> 00:48:56,998
Speaker 2: you're gonna be able to be there witness it in person.

1005
00:48:57,158 --> 00:48:59,318
Speaker 2: As we're talking about this, I'm telling myself, I have

1006
00:48:59,358 --> 00:49:01,358
Speaker 2: to figure out how to get down there at some

1007
00:49:01,478 --> 00:49:04,238
Speaker 2: point and just just do the church things in the

1008
00:49:04,238 --> 00:49:07,238
Speaker 2: back pew, look out over this thing, and just mentally

1009
00:49:07,278 --> 00:49:10,198
Speaker 2: recreate all these different people that you said played there

1010
00:49:10,198 --> 00:49:12,958
Speaker 2: at some point. Jackie Robinson final point. One of my

1011
00:49:13,198 --> 00:49:16,398
Speaker 2: all time favorites. The last game at Yankee the old

1012
00:49:16,478 --> 00:49:19,118
Speaker 2: Yankee Stadium, the race played in it. There used to

1013
00:49:19,118 --> 00:49:22,118
Speaker 2: be a very inexpensive poster of Jackie Robinson on the

1014
00:49:22,118 --> 00:49:25,438
Speaker 2: wall in the manager's office and Luca Kuza is the

1015
00:49:25,798 --> 00:49:28,318
Speaker 2: attendant there and asked. Lewis says, can I buy that

1016
00:49:28,398 --> 00:49:31,798
Speaker 2: from you? Can I because it's a quote about courage

1017
00:49:32,438 --> 00:49:35,438
Speaker 2: underneath Jackie Robinson on that and I think that's a

1018
00:49:35,438 --> 00:49:37,278
Speaker 2: word that can be thrown around a little bit too easily,

1019
00:49:37,318 --> 00:49:41,638
Speaker 2: but absolutely describes his whole life. And I says, I want,

1020
00:49:41,958 --> 00:49:44,118
Speaker 2: I would like to buy that from you. And last

1021
00:49:44,158 --> 00:49:45,798
Speaker 2: day we ready to go, and all of a sudden

1022
00:49:45,878 --> 00:49:47,958
Speaker 2: he just gives it to me. Which I still have

1023
00:49:48,558 --> 00:49:52,038
Speaker 2: that poster from the manager's office at Yankee Stadium. So

1024
00:49:52,078 --> 00:49:54,998
Speaker 2: I have the most respect ever for that man and

1025
00:49:55,038 --> 00:49:58,598
Speaker 2: the fact that he so eloquently put it regarding the

1026
00:49:59,598 --> 00:50:01,838
Speaker 2: connection of the Negro leagues and what it's done for

1027
00:50:01,878 --> 00:50:06,198
Speaker 2: our society one hundred percent accurate. So good for you man,

1028
00:50:06,238 --> 00:50:09,438
Speaker 2: good good for baseball. This is something that these are

1029
00:50:09,438 --> 00:50:13,118
Speaker 2: the kind of things to me that have the impact.

1030
00:50:13,358 --> 00:50:15,318
Speaker 2: Maybe my generation is looking for me, and maybe the

1031
00:50:15,358 --> 00:50:17,438
Speaker 2: new generation is looking for uniforms and looking at all

1032
00:50:17,438 --> 00:50:20,118
Speaker 2: the city connect uniforms and are raiding the city connect

1033
00:50:20,198 --> 00:50:23,158
Speaker 2: uniforms and from groovy to not groovy, that kind of stuff,

1034
00:50:23,598 --> 00:50:26,638
Speaker 2: and that's you know, all guys like to wear different uniforms,

1035
00:50:26,638 --> 00:50:28,318
Speaker 2: and I don't even want to go there. But this

1036
00:50:28,358 --> 00:50:30,798
Speaker 2: is the kind of stuff that really matters. We create

1037
00:50:30,838 --> 00:50:34,358
Speaker 2: a gender new baseball fans based on something like this

1038
00:50:34,958 --> 00:50:37,358
Speaker 2: over a City connect uniform. But I think it's yet.

1039
00:50:37,638 --> 00:50:39,318
Speaker 2: I think City Connects going to win every day.

1040
00:50:39,758 --> 00:50:44,398
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know, at least this game brings exposure

1041
00:50:44,518 --> 00:50:46,918
Speaker 1: to the Negro leagues in terms of a generation to

1042
00:50:46,998 --> 00:50:50,798
Speaker 1: discover who these people were, how important they were to

1043
00:50:50,838 --> 00:50:53,478
Speaker 1: not just baseball history, but American history. I mean, I

1044
00:50:53,558 --> 00:50:56,518
Speaker 1: think about especially playing this game in Birmingham, Alabama. Martin

1045
00:50:56,598 --> 00:50:59,758
Speaker 1: Luther King called it the most segregated city in the country.

1046
00:51:00,438 --> 00:51:03,078
Speaker 1: This is during the racial unrest of the nineteen fifties

1047
00:51:03,078 --> 00:51:06,878
Speaker 1: and sixties. Birmingham actually had a Jim Crow Law on

1048
00:51:06,918 --> 00:51:09,078
Speaker 1: the books. It was an ordinance in the city that

1049
00:51:09,238 --> 00:51:13,238
Speaker 1: blacks and whites could not play a game together and

1050
00:51:13,278 --> 00:51:17,838
Speaker 1: that included not just baseball and football, but checkers. It

1051
00:51:17,918 --> 00:51:20,518
Speaker 1: was actually written in and people referred to it as

1052
00:51:20,598 --> 00:51:23,958
Speaker 1: the Checkers rule, and it was out of books since

1053
00:51:24,038 --> 00:51:28,238
Speaker 1: nineteen forty four. Because you know, the segregation saw that

1054
00:51:28,438 --> 00:51:31,518
Speaker 1: the society was beginning to integrate post war, they wanted

1055
00:51:31,558 --> 00:51:33,438
Speaker 1: to hold on to the old ways, so they wrote

1056
00:51:33,478 --> 00:51:36,998
Speaker 1: these Jim Crow laws where literally you could not play

1057
00:51:37,038 --> 00:51:40,438
Speaker 1: around of golf, a game of checkers, a game of basketball, baseball,

1058
00:51:40,478 --> 00:51:45,358
Speaker 1: anything that was integrated. So baseball was either all black

1059
00:51:45,438 --> 00:51:48,238
Speaker 1: or all white in Birmingham for years and years and years,

1060
00:51:48,278 --> 00:51:50,878
Speaker 1: and then in nineteen fifty four there was a brief

1061
00:51:50,918 --> 00:51:54,718
Speaker 1: period where they wanted to attract Major League Baseball exhibition games,

1062
00:51:54,878 --> 00:51:57,958
Speaker 1: but the checkers rule prevented that. So there was a

1063
00:51:57,998 --> 00:52:00,278
Speaker 1: brief period really only for a matter of months where

1064
00:52:00,278 --> 00:52:03,638
Speaker 1: they dropped baseball and football from the wording of the

1065
00:52:03,718 --> 00:52:06,918
Speaker 1: checkerckers rule, and there were Major League exhibition games in

1066
00:52:06,958 --> 00:52:10,918
Speaker 1: the spring of nineteen fifty four in Birmingham at Rickwood Field.

1067
00:52:10,998 --> 00:52:14,718
Speaker 1: It was the first time Birmingham had integrated games, first

1068
00:52:14,718 --> 00:52:17,598
Speaker 1: time ever. And in the second first of those games,

1069
00:52:17,598 --> 00:52:20,078
Speaker 1: Stam Usual hit a four hundred and eighty four foot

1070
00:52:20,118 --> 00:52:22,918
Speaker 1: home run over the roof and right field and in

1071
00:52:22,958 --> 00:52:26,158
Speaker 1: the second game, the starting left fielders it was a

1072
00:52:26,158 --> 00:52:30,958
Speaker 1: game between the Milwaukee Brays and Brooklyn Dodgers. The second game,

1073
00:52:31,758 --> 00:52:35,638
Speaker 1: the starting left fielders were Jackie Robinson, then thirty five

1074
00:52:35,718 --> 00:52:39,398
Speaker 1: years old, and Hank Aaron, who would make his major

1075
00:52:39,478 --> 00:52:42,118
Speaker 1: league debut just a few days later. How about that

1076
00:52:42,238 --> 00:52:45,638
Speaker 1: kind of history. The left fielders were Jackie Robinson and

1077
00:52:45,718 --> 00:52:48,518
Speaker 1: Hank Aaron and the checkers rule was put back in

1078
00:52:48,638 --> 00:52:51,398
Speaker 1: place just a few months later. And it was not

1079
00:52:51,518 --> 00:52:56,838
Speaker 1: until nineteen sixty three that in Birmingham, Alabama, it was

1080
00:52:57,158 --> 00:53:00,558
Speaker 1: legal to have an integrated baseball game. That's the kind

1081
00:53:00,558 --> 00:53:03,558
Speaker 1: of history Rick Woodfield also holds. Besides all the great

1082
00:53:03,678 --> 00:53:05,478
Speaker 1: names is that have played on that field.

1083
00:53:05,758 --> 00:53:08,398
Speaker 2: Can't top it. That's beautiful stuff right there, man. And

1084
00:53:08,398 --> 00:53:10,478
Speaker 2: again that's what I'm talking about, sitting in the last

1085
00:53:10,518 --> 00:53:13,878
Speaker 2: few and trying to reimagine all of that as a kid,

1086
00:53:13,918 --> 00:53:16,318
Speaker 2: That's what really got me tuned into this game, the

1087
00:53:16,358 --> 00:53:19,478
Speaker 2: imagination of the game, the allure from as a kid.

1088
00:53:19,518 --> 00:53:23,118
Speaker 2: I might have told you this growing up, I really

1089
00:53:23,518 --> 00:53:27,158
Speaker 2: wanted to see Fenway Park. And what I wanted to

1090
00:53:27,158 --> 00:53:30,278
Speaker 2: see about Fenway Park was what existed? What was it

1091
00:53:30,398 --> 00:53:33,198
Speaker 2: like beyond the Green Monster? What was that street like

1092
00:53:33,278 --> 00:53:35,758
Speaker 2: out there? So when the first time I got to

1093
00:53:36,118 --> 00:53:39,118
Speaker 2: the big leagues with the Angels and went to Boston,

1094
00:53:39,598 --> 00:53:41,358
Speaker 2: sure enough, the first thing I do was walk down

1095
00:53:41,358 --> 00:53:44,438
Speaker 2: that street. I can't even remember exactly what was on

1096
00:53:44,478 --> 00:53:46,958
Speaker 2: that street except a bunch of little couple of bars

1097
00:53:46,998 --> 00:53:50,558
Speaker 2: maybe whatever. But that was always an alluring thought to me.

1098
00:53:50,678 --> 00:53:53,318
Speaker 2: What would existed beyond the Green Monster. We had a

1099
00:53:53,318 --> 00:53:56,678
Speaker 2: ballpark here in town, Cranberry Park out in West Hazleton,

1100
00:53:57,078 --> 00:53:59,838
Speaker 2: that actually Babe Ruth played at, and recently Rick Mant

1101
00:54:00,198 --> 00:54:03,478
Speaker 2: sent me a newspaper clipping of that the game where

1102
00:54:03,638 --> 00:54:06,998
Speaker 2: Alone Guy struck out Babe the Bambino twice in that

1103
00:54:07,038 --> 00:54:10,478
Speaker 2: game here at Cranberry Ballpark, which existed not far from

1104
00:54:10,518 --> 00:54:12,798
Speaker 2: where I'm sitting right now. That's what really turns me

1105
00:54:12,798 --> 00:54:15,398
Speaker 2: on about our game. It does the fact that we

1106
00:54:15,438 --> 00:54:18,798
Speaker 2: can connect back so far, and for me it was

1107
00:54:18,838 --> 00:54:21,718
Speaker 2: always almost like a religion as a kid growing up,

1108
00:54:22,478 --> 00:54:24,638
Speaker 2: and how I felt about it and the allure to it.

1109
00:54:25,238 --> 00:54:27,038
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of people out there that

1110
00:54:27,078 --> 00:54:29,718
Speaker 2: feel that way, and I just like the newer fans

1111
00:54:29,718 --> 00:54:31,918
Speaker 2: growing up, the younger fans, that they would have some

1112
00:54:32,038 --> 00:54:36,078
Speaker 2: kind of connection in that regard in that way. I

1113
00:54:36,158 --> 00:54:38,358
Speaker 2: don't know if it's possible anymore. I don't know that,

1114
00:54:38,758 --> 00:54:40,758
Speaker 2: but a mystery capping that's what made me want to

1115
00:54:40,758 --> 00:54:44,718
Speaker 2: do what I did, or moments like that, and Cranberry

1116
00:54:44,718 --> 00:54:47,598
Speaker 2: Ballpark's liquid which I got to see at some point,

1117
00:54:47,878 --> 00:54:52,838
Speaker 2: and our moment last year at Hinchliffe Stadium in Patterson,

1118
00:54:52,838 --> 00:54:55,318
Speaker 2: New Jersey. These are the things that really connect and

1119
00:54:55,398 --> 00:54:58,078
Speaker 2: draw you in. For me, the more we can do that,

1120
00:54:58,118 --> 00:55:01,518
Speaker 2: hopefully it resonates with some youth and the fact that

1121
00:55:01,558 --> 00:55:03,438
Speaker 2: it brings them in that way somehow too, I.

1122
00:55:03,358 --> 00:55:06,998
Speaker 1: Think, R Yeah, you're talking about an appreciation of history,

1123
00:55:07,318 --> 00:55:10,398
Speaker 1: and I think it's so important. We all come from someplace.

1124
00:55:10,638 --> 00:55:13,438
Speaker 1: There's generally people who have paid paths for us, whether

1125
00:55:13,478 --> 00:55:15,838
Speaker 1: we realize it or not, and I think it's important

1126
00:55:15,838 --> 00:55:19,878
Speaker 1: to understand where we're from, the physical places and the

1127
00:55:19,958 --> 00:55:22,198
Speaker 1: people who pay the way for us. And when you

1128
00:55:22,238 --> 00:55:25,198
Speaker 1: told that story about Fenway, Joe, he really touched a

1129
00:55:25,198 --> 00:55:28,238
Speaker 1: spot in my heart because for me it was opening

1130
00:55:28,278 --> 00:55:30,798
Speaker 1: day in nineteen eighty five, going out to Fenway Park

1131
00:55:30,838 --> 00:55:33,318
Speaker 1: for me for the first time. And if you can

1132
00:55:33,358 --> 00:55:35,718
Speaker 1: imagine how low the sun is in the sky in

1133
00:55:35,838 --> 00:55:41,118
Speaker 1: early spring in Boston, Massachusetts, and it's a bright, sunny morning,

1134
00:55:41,318 --> 00:55:44,918
Speaker 1: cold but sunny, and the place is empty. And I'm

1135
00:55:44,958 --> 00:55:47,638
Speaker 1: with you as far as going to churches when it's empty,

1136
00:55:47,918 --> 00:55:49,878
Speaker 1: I'll get there early just for that reason, to give

1137
00:55:49,958 --> 00:55:51,878
Speaker 1: that feeling It's the same at a ballpark if you

1138
00:55:51,918 --> 00:55:55,158
Speaker 1: get there early. Unfortunately, every time batting practice goes on

1139
00:55:55,278 --> 00:55:58,158
Speaker 1: now players can't take VP unless the music is blaring.

1140
00:55:58,598 --> 00:56:01,078
Speaker 1: And I miss the days when the ballpark was empty

1141
00:56:01,198 --> 00:56:03,158
Speaker 1: and all you heard was the crack of the bat

1142
00:56:03,478 --> 00:56:05,918
Speaker 1: or the hitting the leather of a glove. It's just

1143
00:56:05,958 --> 00:56:09,558
Speaker 1: a beautiful, peaceful kind of place. And that morning I

1144
00:56:09,598 --> 00:56:11,558
Speaker 1: walked out made sure I walked out to the wall

1145
00:56:11,558 --> 00:56:13,918
Speaker 1: and left field. There's nobody in the ballpark. Gates haven't

1146
00:56:13,958 --> 00:56:16,638
Speaker 1: been opened yet, and I was absolutely dumbfounded by the

1147
00:56:16,678 --> 00:56:18,798
Speaker 1: fact that that wall and left field looks like a

1148
00:56:18,918 --> 00:56:21,598
Speaker 1: titleist golf ball with all the dimples on it. And

1149
00:56:21,638 --> 00:56:25,278
Speaker 1: you talk about history. Every batting practice line drive, every

1150
00:56:25,358 --> 00:56:28,918
Speaker 1: double off the wall leaves literally an impression on the wall,

1151
00:56:29,038 --> 00:56:31,078
Speaker 1: and I had not realized that it doesn't show up

1152
00:56:31,078 --> 00:56:33,518
Speaker 1: on television. But standing there next to the wall, you

1153
00:56:33,558 --> 00:56:36,438
Speaker 1: get a sense of not just how many times that

1154
00:56:36,478 --> 00:56:38,518
Speaker 1: wall has been hit, but how many years that wall

1155
00:56:38,518 --> 00:56:40,958
Speaker 1: has been there and the things that it has seen.

1156
00:56:41,038 --> 00:56:43,238
Speaker 1: And I feel the same way about going to Rickwood.

1157
00:56:43,598 --> 00:56:47,878
Speaker 1: It's about a very physical place, a tangible place that

1158
00:56:47,998 --> 00:56:50,438
Speaker 1: takes us back to some of the things that are important.

1159
00:56:50,518 --> 00:56:53,758
Speaker 1: And again it's where we're from that's important. And that's

1160
00:56:53,798 --> 00:56:57,598
Speaker 1: why Rickwood Field has been called the mother Church of baseball.

1161
00:56:58,478 --> 00:57:00,958
Speaker 2: That's awesome, man. Yeah, you're right about that wall. It's

1162
00:57:00,998 --> 00:57:05,278
Speaker 2: just dimpled. It has dimples everywhere. I used to take

1163
00:57:05,318 --> 00:57:07,398
Speaker 2: my out fielders out there the first trip into the

1164
00:57:07,438 --> 00:57:10,598
Speaker 2: city or anytime we played at Fenway during batting practice

1165
00:57:10,678 --> 00:57:12,718
Speaker 2: and you as a mongo hitter with just pepper that

1166
00:57:12,798 --> 00:57:14,958
Speaker 2: wall and that was fun. That was fun, and once

1167
00:57:14,998 --> 00:57:16,358
Speaker 2: a while you try to lift one over the wall

1168
00:57:16,438 --> 00:57:18,958
Speaker 2: just for the heck of it. But yeah, that everything

1169
00:57:18,998 --> 00:57:22,518
Speaker 2: you're stating right there, I feel the same way, brother.

1170
00:57:22,678 --> 00:57:26,518
Speaker 2: It's those are the reasons why I wanted to do

1171
00:57:26,678 --> 00:57:29,958
Speaker 2: this sport over all the others. And you're talking about

1172
00:57:30,038 --> 00:57:32,958
Speaker 2: historical component and how far back it goes and how

1173
00:57:32,998 --> 00:57:37,358
Speaker 2: well it's been tracked. And we know baseball players and

1174
00:57:37,438 --> 00:57:39,718
Speaker 2: of them and teams from the early nineteen hundreds, et

1175
00:57:39,758 --> 00:57:43,038
Speaker 2: cetera forward, whereas in football and basketball and the other

1176
00:57:43,038 --> 00:57:46,038
Speaker 2: sports hockey, it's there and those are wonderful sports, but

1177
00:57:46,118 --> 00:57:48,638
Speaker 2: they don't have the same kind of I don't think

1178
00:57:48,758 --> 00:57:52,438
Speaker 2: historical component or impact as our game does. So love

1179
00:57:52,478 --> 00:57:54,918
Speaker 2: all of that stuff about it, have a great time

1180
00:57:54,958 --> 00:57:56,798
Speaker 2: on Thursday, and I definitely will be watching.

1181
00:57:57,038 --> 00:58:00,478
Speaker 1: Yeah, sense of place in baseball is so important like

1182
00:58:00,678 --> 00:58:03,678
Speaker 1: nothing in any other sport. It's the physical place. It's

1183
00:58:03,718 --> 00:58:06,958
Speaker 1: the fact that you're part of literally a community, that

1184
00:58:07,038 --> 00:58:10,878
Speaker 1: ballparks are open to the outdoors and you feel a

1185
00:58:10,918 --> 00:58:13,118
Speaker 1: sense of community when you're there. And it's also the

1186
00:58:13,118 --> 00:58:17,638
Speaker 1: fact that baseball, to me nods and respects history more

1187
00:58:17,678 --> 00:58:20,678
Speaker 1: than any other sport. And to love baseball is to

1188
00:58:20,758 --> 00:58:22,758
Speaker 1: love the history of the game as well. It's a

1189
00:58:22,838 --> 00:58:25,958
Speaker 1: huge part of it. So yeah, definitely looking forward to that.

1190
00:58:26,078 --> 00:58:29,118
Speaker 1: And if you're a fan of anything of history of

1191
00:58:29,158 --> 00:58:32,638
Speaker 1: baseball or just American history, I think you have to

1192
00:58:32,678 --> 00:58:34,398
Speaker 1: watch this game. First of all, it's just going to

1193
00:58:34,438 --> 00:58:38,918
Speaker 1: be physically attractive in the way that it looks. But yeah,

1194
00:58:39,118 --> 00:58:42,918
Speaker 1: the history that's embedded in that ballpark is something that

1195
00:58:43,238 --> 00:58:45,038
Speaker 1: I think should strike even a viewer. You don't have

1196
00:58:45,078 --> 00:58:48,358
Speaker 1: to be there in person, So looking forward to that. Joe,

1197
00:58:48,398 --> 00:58:50,118
Speaker 1: And as always I look forward to the way you

1198
00:58:50,158 --> 00:58:52,918
Speaker 1: wrap up our episodes of the Book of Joe. So

1199
00:58:53,598 --> 00:58:55,198
Speaker 1: what do you got for this edition of the Book

1200
00:58:55,238 --> 00:58:57,438
Speaker 1: of Joe to bring us home?

1201
00:58:58,118 --> 00:58:59,918
Speaker 2: You're talking about a lot of change. We're just talking

1202
00:58:59,918 --> 00:59:02,038
Speaker 2: about a lot of change and different things that may occur,

1203
00:59:02,198 --> 00:59:06,918
Speaker 2: and bessive thoughts and the ability to either accept or

1204
00:59:06,958 --> 00:59:10,158
Speaker 2: repel them. And I just, you know, I guess I'm

1205
00:59:10,158 --> 00:59:12,718
Speaker 2: talking to myself right here, because sometimes I don't know

1206
00:59:12,718 --> 00:59:15,078
Speaker 2: if it's being said in your ways is the right

1207
00:59:15,078 --> 00:59:16,838
Speaker 2: way to describe it, or just being well thought in

1208
00:59:16,878 --> 00:59:21,398
Speaker 2: your ways. But Marcus Relius once said, be tolerant with

1209
00:59:21,478 --> 00:59:24,038
Speaker 2: others and strict with yourself. So I think, you know,

1210
00:59:24,278 --> 00:59:29,118
Speaker 2: with all different methods ideas thoughts, really absorb them, really

1211
00:59:29,198 --> 00:59:32,158
Speaker 2: digest and really think them all the way through, and

1212
00:59:32,838 --> 00:59:37,118
Speaker 2: try to conclude not based on bias. The only bias

1213
00:59:37,118 --> 00:59:39,558
Speaker 2: that you should have is that what's best for everybody

1214
00:59:39,878 --> 00:59:42,878
Speaker 2: according to your methods, your more's whatever. However, you're grown up,

1215
00:59:42,958 --> 00:59:46,478
Speaker 2: So be tolerant with others absolutely and really try to

1216
00:59:46,518 --> 00:59:49,158
Speaker 2: understand everybody's coming from. And on the other hand, be

1217
00:59:49,198 --> 00:59:52,958
Speaker 2: strict with yourself. I know I am, I know that

1218
00:59:53,038 --> 00:59:55,918
Speaker 2: for sure, I could absolutely say that with certainty. So

1219
00:59:56,518 --> 00:59:58,678
Speaker 2: that part of it is I could be my own

1220
00:59:58,718 --> 01:00:01,238
Speaker 2: worst enemy and nobody could be harder on me than me,

1221
01:00:01,758 --> 01:00:04,518
Speaker 2: So I like that member to be tolerant with others,

1222
01:00:04,758 --> 01:00:08,758
Speaker 2: be open minded, listen, and don't always be confrontational while

1223
01:00:08,758 --> 01:00:11,718
Speaker 2: you're being strict with yourself and making sure that you're

1224
01:00:11,758 --> 01:00:14,478
Speaker 2: agreeing or disagreeing for the right reasons and not just

1225
01:00:14,678 --> 01:00:18,518
Speaker 2: because just because you don't want to agree. That's always

1226
01:00:18,598 --> 01:00:22,758
Speaker 2: the worst reason to be a contrariant. So anyway, be

1227
01:00:22,838 --> 01:00:24,518
Speaker 2: tat with others and strict.

1228
01:00:24,158 --> 01:00:28,478
Speaker 1: With yourself as always perfect. Kapper very well said, this

1229
01:00:28,638 --> 01:00:29,878
Speaker 1: was fun. We'll do it next time.

1230
01:00:29,998 --> 01:00:31,758
Speaker 2: Thanks, Thanks brother, I have a great time man.

1231
01:00:43,038 --> 01:00:46,238
Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

1232
01:00:46,478 --> 01:00:51,358
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1233
01:00:51,598 --> 01:00:53,358
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.