WEBVTT - Metzl Calling for Full Covid-19 Origin Investigation

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<v Speaker 1>This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>Quick Takes Tim Stinovich from Bloomberg Radio. There is a

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<v Speaker 1>story on the Bloomberg terminal today the controversy of the

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<v Speaker 1>investigation organized by the World Health Organization in China about

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<v Speaker 1>the origins of COVID nineteen, and it has definitely heated

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<v Speaker 1>up as a group of scientists are calling for an

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<v Speaker 1>independent probe to consider all hypotheses and nailed down whether

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<v Speaker 1>the virus came from an animal. And there's a group

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<v Speaker 1>of more than twenty signatories that have put in an

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<v Speaker 1>open letter published by the Wall Street Journal that the

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<v Speaker 1>existing mission isn't independent enough and demanding a new probe

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<v Speaker 1>to consider all possibilities over the origin. So one of

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<v Speaker 1>those involved in that and here to get some thoughts

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<v Speaker 1>on it, is Jamie Matzel. Certainly a friend of our show.

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<v Speaker 1>He's a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, former director

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<v Speaker 1>on the U S National Security Council of the State Department,

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<v Speaker 1>and on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, founder and chair

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<v Speaker 1>of the global movement One Shared World. And he joins

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<v Speaker 1>us on the phone in Vail, Colorado. Jamie, how are you.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm great, Carrol, nice to speak with you again. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>great to have you here. Tell us about this letter

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<v Speaker 1>that was published, that open letter, published it in the

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<v Speaker 1>Wall Street Journal. Yeah, so we published it yesterday. It

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<v Speaker 1>came out first in the Wall Street Journal, and it's

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<v Speaker 1>been in newspapers all around the world yesterday and today,

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<v Speaker 1>the New York Times, everywhere. And basically, the case that

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<v Speaker 1>we are making is that this pandemic is so big

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<v Speaker 1>and so catastrophic that we need to know where it

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<v Speaker 1>came from, what went wrong? Why are so many people

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<v Speaker 1>dying unnecessarily? Is the first point. The second point is

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<v Speaker 1>that this World Health Organization, partly World Health Organization organized

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<v Speaker 1>joint investigation isn't what we need. It's not sufficiently credible,

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<v Speaker 1>it's not independent, it doesn't have access to all of

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<v Speaker 1>the necessary records and samples and personnel. And while it

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<v Speaker 1>may be useful in some ways, what we need is

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<v Speaker 1>a thorough investigation to understand where all of this comes from.

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<v Speaker 1>And then we outline exactly what would be required, and

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<v Speaker 1>we call on world leaders to begin a process of

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<v Speaker 1>allowing the origins of this pandemic to be investigated so

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<v Speaker 1>we can fix our biggest problems and be safer now

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<v Speaker 1>and in the future. JB Listen, this is something we

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<v Speaker 1>definitely talked about earlier in the week about needing to

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<v Speaker 1>still know how COVID came to be, how did it happen,

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<v Speaker 1>because it's crucial for understanding the path of the virus

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<v Speaker 1>and also understanding maybe future virus is now specifically though,

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<v Speaker 1>and I know you and the other signatories, I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>a big part of what you're concerned about is I

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<v Speaker 1>think half of that joint team involved and working with

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<v Speaker 1>the w h Oh, we're Chinese citizens whose scientific independence

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<v Speaker 1>may be limited at least that's the claim you guys

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<v Speaker 1>are making your and you and I've talked about this

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<v Speaker 1>before on air. You're concerned about the role of China,

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<v Speaker 1>uh specifically especially you know with the concerns that that's

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<v Speaker 1>where it all started. Yeah. So, um, there's two big

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<v Speaker 1>pieces of this. One, as you mentioned, is there there

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<v Speaker 1>is this joint committee. It's an independent advisory committee to

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<v Speaker 1>the World Health Organization, which is important because it's not

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<v Speaker 1>the World Health Organization itself. And then there are these

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<v Speaker 1>the Chinese authorities who are co investigating. If all you

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<v Speaker 1>think you are doing is investigating a possible animal origin

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<v Speaker 1>of the pandemic. Well that that that might even make

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<v Speaker 1>sense because China is a huge stakeholder in in finding

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<v Speaker 1>and being able to prove if they can. Although there's

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<v Speaker 1>no evidence of it, um that COVID comes from a

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<v Speaker 1>series of animal to animal jumps in the wild. But if,

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<v Speaker 1>as I believe is most likely the case, COVID comes

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<v Speaker 1>from an accidental lab leak from the Wuhan Institute of Virology,

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<v Speaker 1>and we can talk about that evidence in a moment.

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<v Speaker 1>And then having China investigate an accidental lablik from one

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<v Speaker 1>of its own labs when the consequences of that being

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<v Speaker 1>confirmed as at least possibly the origin of COVID would

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<v Speaker 1>be so negative for China. It's you know, it's like

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<v Speaker 1>having the mafia co investigate a job, you know, local

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<v Speaker 1>pizza parlor. It just doesn't make sense. Well, do you

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<v Speaker 1>not have any faith in the system? I mean, last month,

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<v Speaker 1>we know the mission, the w h O mission, they

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<v Speaker 1>did reject speculation that the virus could have leaked from

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<v Speaker 1>a lab and they said instead that it may have

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<v Speaker 1>jumped to humans through an animal hoster or they talked

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<v Speaker 1>about frozen wildlife products. The w h O Director General

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<v Speaker 1>later said that the u N hasn't or the UN

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<v Speaker 1>Agency hasn't ruled out any hypotheses. So do you still

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<v Speaker 1>not have faith in the system that ultimately they'll continue

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<v Speaker 1>pursuing other avenues. I have a lot of faith in

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<v Speaker 1>the World Health Organization. I have a lot of faith

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<v Speaker 1>in doctor ted us out of known, who's the Director

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<v Speaker 1>General of the World Health Organization. But this committee that

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<v Speaker 1>was doing the investigation was not the World Health Organization.

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<v Speaker 1>It was an independent advisory committee that then went to

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<v Speaker 1>China for a four week It wasn't an investigation, it

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<v Speaker 1>was really a study tour um where their access to

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<v Speaker 1>everything was highly curtailed. Um. They were chaperoned at all times,

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<v Speaker 1>not just by their Chinese counterparts, but by but by

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<v Speaker 1>essentially Chinese government apparatics who were also monitoring the Chinese scientists,

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<v Speaker 1>so they didn't have access to record, sample, key personnel,

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<v Speaker 1>um to the extent that is needed. And then they

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<v Speaker 1>had this this really just atrocious press event on February

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<v Speaker 1>nine where they said that the lab leak hypothesis shouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>be investigated further, and that this idea that it came

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<v Speaker 1>through frozen foods should And that's why I was so

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<v Speaker 1>concerned I mean that they didn't seem right to me.

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<v Speaker 1>Immediately put out a statement condemn me that on Mike

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<v Speaker 1>Jamie metzwell dot com website. And I was really pleased

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<v Speaker 1>when a doctor, when Ted Rosum, put out his statement

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<v Speaker 1>two days later, which was essentially refuting this joint committee

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<v Speaker 1>had come up with and saying we need a full investigation.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to get back to Jamie Metzel, senior fellow

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<v Speaker 1>at the Atlanta Council, former director on the U S

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<v Speaker 1>National Security Council of the State Department, on the Senate

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<v Speaker 1>Foreign Relations Committee, as well founder and chair of the

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<v Speaker 1>Global Movement when chaired World Still with us on the

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<v Speaker 1>phone in Veil, Colorado, and we're talking about the recent

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<v Speaker 1>UH commission that was looking into the origin of COVID

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen over in China specifically. Uh, Jamie, you know one

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<v Speaker 1>thing I want to ask you, do you could see

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<v Speaker 1>that there's a real possibility that we are ultimately never

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<v Speaker 1>going to get maybe the data and information um from

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<v Speaker 1>the Wuhan lab that will ultimately maybe tell us whether

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<v Speaker 1>or not it was a lab accident or whether it

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<v Speaker 1>was truly transmission from bats and animals. Yeah, no, I

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<v Speaker 1>think that's quite likely. And and anyone who's been paying

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<v Speaker 1>close attention that China has engaged in a massive cover

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<v Speaker 1>up over the last year. They immediately started destroying samples,

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<v Speaker 1>eliminating or moving access to records, imprisoning journalists and others

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<v Speaker 1>asking questions, and they established a universal gag order not

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<v Speaker 1>allow any of their scientists to speak publicly or write

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<v Speaker 1>anything about the origins of the of the pandemic. And

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<v Speaker 1>so the question is not is China engage in an

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<v Speaker 1>active cover up to try to obfuscate the issue of

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<v Speaker 1>the origins of the pandemic? Is should we play along?

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<v Speaker 1>And that's why in Ropen letter, what we've said is

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<v Speaker 1>that the world community needs to articulate what investigation looks like,

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<v Speaker 1>what kind of access to record, sam old and personnel

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<v Speaker 1>we need in order to find where COVID comes from night.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think it's almost it's very very to that

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<v Speaker 1>question is answerable and not saying China is gonna he's

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<v Speaker 1>sorry about that, we've been based in this cover up?

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<v Speaker 1>Are bad here that? But let's set the standard and

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<v Speaker 1>tell them, tell the world I will not help, and

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<v Speaker 1>that's on them. And if it is, we shouldn't start

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<v Speaker 1>with the compromise if it is ultimately a case that

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<v Speaker 1>China is covering stuff. And again you know, we we

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<v Speaker 1>don't know at this at this juncture, UM And to

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<v Speaker 1>be fair, but I do wonder is this just not

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<v Speaker 1>though potentially you know another indication Jamie, you'd have talked

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<v Speaker 1>about this a lot, the complicated relationship that is the

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<v Speaker 1>world with China, to be quite honest, going forward. And

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<v Speaker 1>so you know, companies, major companies want to be involved

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<v Speaker 1>in China and they're willing to maybe look the other way.

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<v Speaker 1>Government is willing to look the other way if there

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<v Speaker 1>are you know, policies that they're uncomfortab bull with UM

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<v Speaker 1>And this is just how it is. I mean, that's

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<v Speaker 1>that is partly right. I mean, China is a very big,

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<v Speaker 1>very important country. There are areas where really need to

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<v Speaker 1>collaborate actively China, even whether we like it or not

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<v Speaker 1>the bettermental world. But my view two on this, and

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<v Speaker 1>Eric you and I have discussed over the years, Carol,

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<v Speaker 1>is that we have to have standard for own behavior

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<v Speaker 1>in those interacts. It can't be lowest common denominator relationships.

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<v Speaker 1>It has to well, here's the standard of what we believe.

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<v Speaker 1>And when so many people are dying from a terrible

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<v Speaker 1>and not believe totally of the whole pandemic. We have

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<v Speaker 1>to be able to add very least the tough questions

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<v Speaker 1>where this comes from for all of our goods, including

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<v Speaker 1>the good of the people China, right, exactly. But you

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<v Speaker 1>also know too that it's kind of been an interesting

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<v Speaker 1>political global political world where China has also pointed the

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<v Speaker 1>finger at the United States to say, you know, what

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<v Speaker 1>are you doing to your people? You know what I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>it's just kind of an interesting time here. It's true,

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<v Speaker 1>and and they're not wrong in every case. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>they're all kinds of terrible things. And whatever the origin

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<v Speaker 1>of the pandemic, there is a reason why nine people

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<v Speaker 1>have died of COVID nineteen in Taiwan and we're over

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<v Speaker 1>five here in the United States. And that's not the origin.

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<v Speaker 1>It's in many ways or significantly the response our government.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's a lot of fingers to point, including it ourselves,

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<v Speaker 1>but we should just we need to be honest when

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<v Speaker 1>pointing in all directions. Hey, listen, we just have about

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<v Speaker 1>forty seconds left here, do you think at this point

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<v Speaker 1>to maybe a key conversation is to have is to

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<v Speaker 1>identify other high risk lab research um, that's being done

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<v Speaker 1>on pathogens, so that we just in case, we make

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<v Speaker 1>sure we're aware of this and just got about forty seconds. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely if COVID comes from an accidental lab leak, which

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<v Speaker 1>I think is the most likely origin, but your listeners

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<v Speaker 1>can go to night Jane Metel dot com site, read

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<v Speaker 1>the evidence and judge for themselves. That means that maybe

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<v Speaker 1>we have a bigger lab safety problem than we thought

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<v Speaker 1>that we had. And then let's look carefully. Is now

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<v Speaker 1>looking to build another level four virology institute in a

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<v Speaker 1>high into this high throughput city. Next to that is

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<v Speaker 1>an international travel hub. We need to be asking these

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<v Speaker 1>tough questions. If the pandemic can't have to ask the

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<v Speaker 1>tough questions, when are we going to ask? That's why

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<v Speaker 1>we like talking with you, because you're always asking the

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<v Speaker 1>tough questions. Hey, Jamie, nice to check in with you,

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<v Speaker 1>b Well. Jamie Metzel, Senior Fellow at the Atlantic Council

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<v Speaker 1>and former National Security Council Official, Founder and chair of

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<v Speaker 1>the global movement One Shared World, which you can find

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<v Speaker 1>online