Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Quick Takes Tim Stinovich from Bloomberg Radio. There is a
Speaker 1: story on the Bloomberg terminal today the controversy of the
Speaker 1: investigation organized by the World Health Organization in China about
Speaker 1: the origins of COVID nineteen, and it has definitely heated
Speaker 1: up as a group of scientists are calling for an
Speaker 1: independent probe to consider all hypotheses and nailed down whether
Speaker 1: the virus came from an animal. And there's a group
Speaker 1: of more than twenty signatories that have put in an
Speaker 1: open letter published by the Wall Street Journal that the
Speaker 1: existing mission isn't independent enough and demanding a new probe
Speaker 1: to consider all possibilities over the origin. So one of
Speaker 1: those involved in that and here to get some thoughts
Speaker 1: on it, is Jamie Matzel. Certainly a friend of our show.
Speaker 1: He's a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, former director
Speaker 1: on the U S National Security Council of the State Department,
Speaker 1: and on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, founder and chair
Speaker 1: of the global movement One Shared World. And he joins
Speaker 1: us on the phone in Vail, Colorado. Jamie, how are you.
Speaker 1: I'm great, Carrol, nice to speak with you again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: great to have you here. Tell us about this letter
Speaker 1: that was published, that open letter, published it in the
Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal. Yeah, so we published it yesterday. It
Speaker 1: came out first in the Wall Street Journal, and it's
Speaker 1: been in newspapers all around the world yesterday and today,
Speaker 1: the New York Times, everywhere. And basically, the case that
Speaker 1: we are making is that this pandemic is so big
Speaker 1: and so catastrophic that we need to know where it
Speaker 1: came from, what went wrong? Why are so many people
Speaker 1: dying unnecessarily? Is the first point. The second point is
Speaker 1: that this World Health Organization, partly World Health Organization organized
Speaker 1: joint investigation isn't what we need. It's not sufficiently credible,
Speaker 1: it's not independent, it doesn't have access to all of
Speaker 1: the necessary records and samples and personnel. And while it
Speaker 1: may be useful in some ways, what we need is
Speaker 1: a thorough investigation to understand where all of this comes from.
Speaker 1: And then we outline exactly what would be required, and
Speaker 1: we call on world leaders to begin a process of
Speaker 1: allowing the origins of this pandemic to be investigated so
Speaker 1: we can fix our biggest problems and be safer now
Speaker 1: and in the future. JB Listen, this is something we
Speaker 1: definitely talked about earlier in the week about needing to
Speaker 1: still know how COVID came to be, how did it happen,
Speaker 1: because it's crucial for understanding the path of the virus
Speaker 1: and also understanding maybe future virus is now specifically though,
Speaker 1: and I know you and the other signatories, I mean,
Speaker 1: a big part of what you're concerned about is I
Speaker 1: think half of that joint team involved and working with
Speaker 1: the w h Oh, we're Chinese citizens whose scientific independence
Speaker 1: may be limited at least that's the claim you guys
Speaker 1: are making your and you and I've talked about this
Speaker 1: before on air. You're concerned about the role of China,
Speaker 1: uh specifically especially you know with the concerns that that's
Speaker 1: where it all started. Yeah. So, um, there's two big
Speaker 1: pieces of this. One, as you mentioned, is there there
Speaker 1: is this joint committee. It's an independent advisory committee to
Speaker 1: the World Health Organization, which is important because it's not
Speaker 1: the World Health Organization itself. And then there are these
Speaker 1: the Chinese authorities who are co investigating. If all you
Speaker 1: think you are doing is investigating a possible animal origin
Speaker 1: of the pandemic. Well that that that might even make
Speaker 1: sense because China is a huge stakeholder in in finding
Speaker 1: and being able to prove if they can. Although there's
Speaker 1: no evidence of it, um that COVID comes from a
Speaker 1: series of animal to animal jumps in the wild. But if,
Speaker 1: as I believe is most likely the case, COVID comes
Speaker 1: from an accidental lab leak from the Wuhan Institute of Virology,
Speaker 1: and we can talk about that evidence in a moment.
Speaker 1: And then having China investigate an accidental lablik from one
Speaker 1: of its own labs when the consequences of that being
Speaker 1: confirmed as at least possibly the origin of COVID would
Speaker 1: be so negative for China. It's you know, it's like
Speaker 1: having the mafia co investigate a job, you know, local
Speaker 1: pizza parlor. It just doesn't make sense. Well, do you
Speaker 1: not have any faith in the system? I mean, last month,
Speaker 1: we know the mission, the w h O mission, they
Speaker 1: did reject speculation that the virus could have leaked from
Speaker 1: a lab and they said instead that it may have
Speaker 1: jumped to humans through an animal hoster or they talked
Speaker 1: about frozen wildlife products. The w h O Director General
Speaker 1: later said that the u N hasn't or the UN
Speaker 1: Agency hasn't ruled out any hypotheses. So do you still
Speaker 1: not have faith in the system that ultimately they'll continue
Speaker 1: pursuing other avenues. I have a lot of faith in
Speaker 1: the World Health Organization. I have a lot of faith
Speaker 1: in doctor ted us out of known, who's the Director
Speaker 1: General of the World Health Organization. But this committee that
Speaker 1: was doing the investigation was not the World Health Organization.
Speaker 1: It was an independent advisory committee that then went to
Speaker 1: China for a four week It wasn't an investigation, it
Speaker 1: was really a study tour um where their access to
Speaker 1: everything was highly curtailed. Um. They were chaperoned at all times,
Speaker 1: not just by their Chinese counterparts, but by but by
Speaker 1: essentially Chinese government apparatics who were also monitoring the Chinese scientists,
Speaker 1: so they didn't have access to record, sample, key personnel,
Speaker 1: um to the extent that is needed. And then they
Speaker 1: had this this really just atrocious press event on February
Speaker 1: nine where they said that the lab leak hypothesis shouldn't
Speaker 1: be investigated further, and that this idea that it came
Speaker 1: through frozen foods should And that's why I was so
Speaker 1: concerned I mean that they didn't seem right to me.
Speaker 1: Immediately put out a statement condemn me that on Mike
Speaker 1: Jamie metzwell dot com website. And I was really pleased
Speaker 1: when a doctor, when Ted Rosum, put out his statement
Speaker 1: two days later, which was essentially refuting this joint committee
Speaker 1: had come up with and saying we need a full investigation.
Speaker 1: I want to get back to Jamie Metzel, senior fellow
Speaker 1: at the Atlanta Council, former director on the U S
Speaker 1: National Security Council of the State Department, on the Senate
Speaker 1: Foreign Relations Committee, as well founder and chair of the
Speaker 1: Global Movement when chaired World Still with us on the
Speaker 1: phone in Veil, Colorado, and we're talking about the recent
Speaker 1: UH commission that was looking into the origin of COVID
Speaker 1: nineteen over in China specifically. Uh, Jamie, you know one
Speaker 1: thing I want to ask you, do you could see
Speaker 1: that there's a real possibility that we are ultimately never
Speaker 1: going to get maybe the data and information um from
Speaker 1: the Wuhan lab that will ultimately maybe tell us whether
Speaker 1: or not it was a lab accident or whether it
Speaker 1: was truly transmission from bats and animals. Yeah, no, I
Speaker 1: think that's quite likely. And and anyone who's been paying
Speaker 1: close attention that China has engaged in a massive cover
Speaker 1: up over the last year. They immediately started destroying samples,
Speaker 1: eliminating or moving access to records, imprisoning journalists and others
Speaker 1: asking questions, and they established a universal gag order not
Speaker 1: allow any of their scientists to speak publicly or write
Speaker 1: anything about the origins of the of the pandemic. And
Speaker 1: so the question is not is China engage in an
Speaker 1: active cover up to try to obfuscate the issue of
Speaker 1: the origins of the pandemic? Is should we play along?
Speaker 1: And that's why in Ropen letter, what we've said is
Speaker 1: that the world community needs to articulate what investigation looks like,
Speaker 1: what kind of access to record, sam old and personnel
Speaker 1: we need in order to find where COVID comes from night.
Speaker 1: So I think it's almost it's very very to that
Speaker 1: question is answerable and not saying China is gonna he's
Speaker 1: sorry about that, we've been based in this cover up?
Speaker 1: Are bad here that? But let's set the standard and
Speaker 1: tell them, tell the world I will not help, and
Speaker 1: that's on them. And if it is, we shouldn't start
Speaker 1: with the compromise if it is ultimately a case that
Speaker 1: China is covering stuff. And again you know, we we
Speaker 1: don't know at this at this juncture, UM And to
Speaker 1: be fair, but I do wonder is this just not
Speaker 1: though potentially you know another indication Jamie, you'd have talked
Speaker 1: about this a lot, the complicated relationship that is the
Speaker 1: world with China, to be quite honest, going forward. And
Speaker 1: so you know, companies, major companies want to be involved
Speaker 1: in China and they're willing to maybe look the other way.
Speaker 1: Government is willing to look the other way if there
Speaker 1: are you know, policies that they're uncomfortab bull with UM
Speaker 1: And this is just how it is. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: that is partly right. I mean, China is a very big,
Speaker 1: very important country. There are areas where really need to
Speaker 1: collaborate actively China, even whether we like it or not
Speaker 1: the bettermental world. But my view two on this, and
Speaker 1: Eric you and I have discussed over the years, Carol,
Speaker 1: is that we have to have standard for own behavior
Speaker 1: in those interacts. It can't be lowest common denominator relationships.
Speaker 1: It has to well, here's the standard of what we believe.
Speaker 1: And when so many people are dying from a terrible
Speaker 1: and not believe totally of the whole pandemic. We have
Speaker 1: to be able to add very least the tough questions
Speaker 1: where this comes from for all of our goods, including
Speaker 1: the good of the people China, right, exactly. But you
Speaker 1: also know too that it's kind of been an interesting
Speaker 1: political global political world where China has also pointed the
Speaker 1: finger at the United States to say, you know, what
Speaker 1: are you doing to your people? You know what I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just kind of an interesting time here. It's true,
Speaker 1: and and they're not wrong in every case. I mean,
Speaker 1: they're all kinds of terrible things. And whatever the origin
Speaker 1: of the pandemic, there is a reason why nine people
Speaker 1: have died of COVID nineteen in Taiwan and we're over
Speaker 1: five here in the United States. And that's not the origin.
Speaker 1: It's in many ways or significantly the response our government.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of fingers to point, including it ourselves,
Speaker 1: but we should just we need to be honest when
Speaker 1: pointing in all directions. Hey, listen, we just have about
Speaker 1: forty seconds left here, do you think at this point
Speaker 1: to maybe a key conversation is to have is to
Speaker 1: identify other high risk lab research um, that's being done
Speaker 1: on pathogens, so that we just in case, we make
Speaker 1: sure we're aware of this and just got about forty seconds. Yeah,
Speaker 1: absolutely if COVID comes from an accidental lab leak, which
Speaker 1: I think is the most likely origin, but your listeners
Speaker 1: can go to night Jane Metel dot com site, read
Speaker 1: the evidence and judge for themselves. That means that maybe
Speaker 1: we have a bigger lab safety problem than we thought
Speaker 1: that we had. And then let's look carefully. Is now
Speaker 1: looking to build another level four virology institute in a
Speaker 1: high into this high throughput city. Next to that is
Speaker 1: an international travel hub. We need to be asking these
Speaker 1: tough questions. If the pandemic can't have to ask the
Speaker 1: tough questions, when are we going to ask? That's why
Speaker 1: we like talking with you, because you're always asking the
Speaker 1: tough questions. Hey, Jamie, nice to check in with you,
Speaker 1: b Well. Jamie Metzel, Senior Fellow at the Atlantic Council
Speaker 1: and former National Security Council Official, Founder and chair of
Speaker 1: the global movement One Shared World, which you can find
Speaker 1: online