Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast.
Speaker 3: I'm Joe Wisnal and I'm Tracy Alloway.
Speaker 2: Tracy, how about that reopening of a three Mile Island
Speaker 2: nuclear facilit You.
Speaker 3: Know what, I saw that headline kind of float by
Speaker 3: and it seemed like a big deal. So I think
Speaker 3: Constellation signed a deal with Microsoft to reopen the three
Speaker 3: Mile Island nuclear plant, which everyone remembers from the disaster
Speaker 3: that happened there in the nineteen seventies. What I did
Speaker 3: see was Constellation's share price just exploded higher, like up
Speaker 3: thirty percent in a day. Maybe I shouldn't say exploded
Speaker 3: in a context of three Mile melted up. That's right,
Speaker 3: it melted up.
Speaker 2: You know a couple things about this, So one, I'm
Speaker 2: kind of not surprised because we all know that the
Speaker 2: big hyperscalar tech companies have all this demand for electricity,
Speaker 2: they have a desire to not use further fossil fuels,
Speaker 2: and nuclear is an obvious theoretical solution to how to
Speaker 2: get more clean energy. You know, I will say one
Speaker 2: thing about this deal, and it's very exciting, and I
Speaker 2: don't want to diminish it in any way. But there's
Speaker 2: one aspect of it. I didn't realize that one of
Speaker 2: the reactors at Three Mile Island had only closed down
Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen. So I only know there was like
Speaker 2: something bad happened in the nineteen seventies and the probably
Speaker 2: contributed to the US as general pulling back from nuclear.
Speaker 2: But I hadn't realized that actually, you know, there was
Speaker 2: still nuclear being produced at Three Mile Island up until
Speaker 2: twenty nineteen. Does it make it a little less exciting,
Speaker 2: But it's not like we're fully turning back the calendar
Speaker 2: to nineteen seventies.
Speaker 3: Well, I think there's a nice narrative, full circle aspect
Speaker 3: to this, right, which you just touched on. After the
Speaker 3: Three Mile incident. I mean that really kicked off the
Speaker 3: death of nuclear in some respects in the US, Like
Speaker 3: there is a lot of hesitancy and fear really about
Speaker 3: building new plants, and so in some ways, we're restarting
Speaker 3: at least one of the reactors. Yeah, it's a nice story,
Speaker 3: let's put it that way.
Speaker 2: So, okay, so this operation is going to get restarted,
Speaker 2: And you mentioned the death of nuclear and how we
Speaker 2: basically went forever without building new There was that Georgia plant.
Speaker 2: I think it came online sometime last year, the Votal plant.
Speaker 2: But it does raise the question of, like, how much
Speaker 2: was the fact that we more or less stop building
Speaker 2: nuclear a function of the fact that we got scared
Speaker 2: of nuclear regulations, it became too cautious, et cetera, versus
Speaker 2: the fact that we just had as multiple guests we
Speaker 2: now have pointed out this sort of flatlining of load growth,
Speaker 2: this sort of flat lining of overall demand, which is
Speaker 2: something that's now changed in the last few years with
Speaker 2: the reacceleration of demand for data centers. And to how
Speaker 2: much is this a story of we got scared of
Speaker 2: nuclear and we overregulated it versus how much did the
Speaker 2: economics just not make sense when there was not growing
Speaker 2: demand for lectures.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a good point. I mean, there's
Speaker 3: another tailwind that's sort of behind the potential nuclear resurgence now,
Speaker 3: which is there's a lot of government fundings floating around
Speaker 3: the IRA and programs like that, and so that's another
Speaker 3: thing that maybe is making maybe this time is different.
Speaker 3: There have been a lot of predictions about a nuclear
Speaker 3: renaissance over the years, but maybe maybe this is it.
Speaker 2: Let's learn why the stars have aligned the constellation, if
Speaker 2: you will, why the stars have aligned you for this
Speaker 2: seeming revival of nuclear in America with the restarting of
Speaker 2: the Three Mile Island Reactor. We really do have the
Speaker 2: perfect guest. We've had them on the podcast multiple times.
Speaker 2: Truly one of our favorites in the fan. We're going
Speaker 2: to be speaking with Jiggershaw. He is the director of
Speaker 2: the Loan Program's Office at the Department of Energy, a
Speaker 2: key player in all of the Inflation Reduction Act's efforts
Speaker 2: to stimulate clean energy growth in the US. With the
Speaker 2: Inflation Reduction Act, his office went from a lending authority
Speaker 2: above forty billion to over two hundred billion. A big
Speaker 2: advocate of nuclear and other sources. Jigger, thank you so
Speaker 2: much for coming on at Lots and great to have
Speaker 2: you in the studio. It's the first time we've talked
Speaker 2: to you here in studio.
Speaker 4: It's so great to be in the studio. Thanks for
Speaker 4: having me.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. So I'm going to start off
Speaker 2: with this question, which is, Okay, we went for a
Speaker 2: long time basically without building new nuclear power plants. It's
Speaker 2: starting to pick up again. How much is it because
Speaker 2: something has changed policy wise with you know, subsidies and
Speaker 2: tax credits, et cetera versus demand is back. Therefore the
Speaker 2: economics of nuclear makes sense or would you say it's
Speaker 2: not binary?
Speaker 4: Well, look, I think that when you think about what
Speaker 4: happened through historical contacts teen seventies, we had high inflation, right,
Speaker 4: and nuclear power was subject to high inflation, and so
Speaker 4: you know, part of this is people were already worried
Speaker 4: about building new nuclear plants before the incident occurred because
Speaker 4: things were just getting more expensive, right. And when you
Speaker 4: think about the utility bankruptcies that occurred right way back when,
Speaker 4: it was because it had cost overruns on nuclear power, right.
Speaker 4: And so so I think that in general, it goes
Speaker 4: to when America stopped believing in itself and its ability
Speaker 4: to do big things in infrastructure. And I think this
Speaker 4: moment with load growth and with the President saying we
Speaker 4: are going to build big things here like has gotten
Speaker 4: people thinking again, Hey, what would it take to actually
Speaker 4: figure this out this time around?
Speaker 3: This is actually exactly what I wanted to ask you
Speaker 3: about because I was reading that the initial construction cost
Speaker 3: for Unit one of three mile was about four hundred
Speaker 3: million dollars, and I guess like today the cost of
Speaker 3: building a nuclear plant would be like five billion, ten billion.
Speaker 3: Obviously the four hundred million isn't, you know, adjusted for
Speaker 3: nineteen sixties prices. But it does seem in general like
Speaker 3: it's more expensive to build nuclear plants certainly since the
Speaker 3: nineteen sixties. Where did that additional cost increase actually come from?
Speaker 4: So when you think about building things, like if you
Speaker 4: were to build multi family housing, and you would build
Speaker 4: one multi family housing building versus building twelve right throughout
Speaker 4: the city, you can imagine if you're using the same design,
Speaker 4: it would be cheaper, the workers would get better, you know,
Speaker 4: the first one would cost more, the second would cost less,
Speaker 4: the third would be even less.
Speaker 5: You get faster.
Speaker 4: I mean you see that when you go into like
Speaker 4: a new home construction place. The first home takes it
Speaker 4: seems a lot longer, and then suddenly, like the homes
Speaker 4: start popping up every week. Right, this is the same
Speaker 4: with nuclear power. We trained thirteen thousand people to build
Speaker 4: the Vocal nuclear plant in Georgia, right, and then we
Speaker 4: were done, And where did all those workers go?
Speaker 3: To?
Speaker 4: Other jobs? So, now if we wanted to build units
Speaker 4: five and six. We wanted to rebuild you know, VC
Speaker 4: Summer in South Carolina, which is like one hundred miles away, Right,
Speaker 4: we'd have to go and find other thirteen thousand workers, right.
Speaker 4: And so one of the things that we have to
Speaker 4: figure out how to do is to figure out how
Speaker 4: to build ten right and have those same workers that
Speaker 4: we trained, all those same EPC contractors, all of those
Speaker 4: same suppliers not have to stop and start, but we
Speaker 4: you know, continue to like to do these one off things.
Speaker 2: This is why I recommend everyone should go read. Your
Speaker 2: office puts out a series of reports called Pathways to
Speaker 2: Commercial Liftoff, reports about what it takes to really commercialize
Speaker 2: various types of energy, not just nuclear. And you always
Speaker 2: talk about the importance of the order book going forward
Speaker 2: so that people know that there's a second and a
Speaker 2: third project and a fourth project out there. So I
Speaker 2: want to get into that and also talk some more
Speaker 2: about the workplace development, but just on this project a
Speaker 2: little bit more. Tell us what happened. How did the
Speaker 2: stars align such that Constellation thought it's worth taking on
Speaker 2: the operational risk to get this going Again, Microsoft neat
Speaker 2: thinking that yes, this is the best solution for their
Speaker 2: clean energy needs, and what is the role of supply
Speaker 2: and demand, and then the role of various tax credits
Speaker 2: and such within the IRA that made this all happen.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's a juicy tail, right. I Mean,
Speaker 4: when you think about the nuclear energy industry, there aren't
Speaker 4: really any entrepreneurs, right. Constellation is a company that bought
Speaker 4: up a lot of other people's nuclear plants. They are
Speaker 4: the best operator of nuclear plants in the world, right,
Speaker 4: and then they got spun out of Exelon right into
Speaker 4: their own stockticker. But you know, I think we all
Speaker 4: have to acknowledge that if it wasn't for the Palisades
Speaker 4: Nuclear plant in Michigan that we announced a conditional commitment
Speaker 4: for and that we're you know, closing the lon On here,
Speaker 4: there's no way that the rest of these projects happen.
Speaker 4: Right in Palisades is owned by hole Tech, which is
Speaker 4: a genuine entrepreneur, Chris Singh right, private company, right, one
Speaker 4: of the most successful entrepreneurs in the nuclear industry, right
Speaker 4: and in the whole world. And it's one of those
Speaker 4: weird things where he woke up one morning and said, well,
Speaker 4: I've just got a contract to dismantle the Palisades Nuclear plant,
Speaker 4: and you know, we went to him and said, would
Speaker 4: you think about restarting and he said, do.
Speaker 3: You think about doing the complete opposite? Perhaps?
Speaker 4: Yeah, And he said, well sell me. And I was like, well,
Speaker 4: here are the incentives out of the Inflation Reduction Act
Speaker 4: you can get, you know, the forty eight E and
Speaker 4: some of these other at tax credits.
Speaker 2: Walk us through the specific what are the what do
Speaker 2: you get in there?
Speaker 4: So when you restart a nuclear plant, right, the nuclear
Speaker 4: plant is viewed as new additional capacity, right because it
Speaker 4: was shut down. And so as a result, this technology
Speaker 4: agnostic credit that was created by you know, Senator Widen right,
Speaker 4: because remember we always had the solar tax credit and
Speaker 4: the wind tax credit and all these other things. So
Speaker 4: over time, like the IRA moves us to a technology
Speaker 4: neutral tax credit, so that everything that is clean gets
Speaker 4: this technology neutral tax credit. It's you know, it's a
Speaker 4: pretty lucrative tax credit, depends on the technology. But let's
Speaker 4: say three cents a killo what hour? And so now
Speaker 4: you're in this place where you actually have a bonus
Speaker 4: production credit. Now you separately can choose to get an
Speaker 4: investment tax credit. Right. But it happens to be that
Speaker 4: the production tax cred is more lucrative for these restarts
Speaker 4: of nuclear plants. But if you decide to do the
Speaker 4: investment tax credit, then you get the thirty percent tax credit.
Speaker 4: Then there's bonus tax cred So if it's part of
Speaker 4: an energy community, you get an extra ten percent, right.
Speaker 4: If you have a lot of domestic content, you get
Speaker 4: another ten percent.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 4: So you could imagine that some of the folks you're
Speaker 4: building brand new nuclear plants might go that direction. But
Speaker 4: as a result of these incentives, nuclear power is now
Speaker 4: very cost effective. Then the question becomes like who actually
Speaker 4: wants to buy this power? Right, because wholesale market prices
Speaker 4: have been low, and so then the question becomes who
Speaker 4: was to buy it? And it happened to be that
Speaker 4: two different utility groups in Michigan competed over wanting to
Speaker 4: buy all the output out of the Palisades restart, and
Speaker 4: so he you know, picked one of the groups to
Speaker 4: buy that power, and then that led to you know,
Speaker 4: the project becoming financiable, right, and so once that succeeded,
Speaker 4: then you know, Constellation was like, hell, maybe we could
Speaker 4: do this.
Speaker 3: So when you say with the tax credits and those
Speaker 3: other changes. It suddenly becomes cost effective or it becomes financiable.
Speaker 3: Walk us through the actual math, like what is changing here?
Speaker 3: Is it the discount rate or the future projection of revenue?
Speaker 3: Like what is it exactly that changes in the equation.
Speaker 4: So for a restart, you generally choose a production tax credit,
Speaker 4: not the investment tax credit. And that's because the cost
Speaker 4: of restarting a reactor is a lot lower than the
Speaker 4: cost of building a brand new reactor. Right, so you
Speaker 4: make more money by getting that extra three cents of
Speaker 4: kill what hour for the next you know, twenty years.
Speaker 4: So the math there is you put up, it depends
Speaker 4: on you know, where the final costs runs outpu let's
Speaker 4: call it one to two billion dollars to do the restart,
Speaker 4: And then you get this three cents kill what hour
Speaker 4: multiplied by the number of kill what hours that that
Speaker 4: plant creates. And remember a nuclear power plant runs on
Speaker 4: average in the state's ninety two percent of the time,
Speaker 4: So that's a lot of killo what hours that comes
Speaker 4: out of that plant, whereas with a solar farm you
Speaker 4: might get twenty five percent of the time production right
Speaker 4: with a tracking system. And so so the math means
Speaker 4: that you could get almost all of your money back
Speaker 4: on the one to two billion dollars from the tax credits, right,
Speaker 4: and then you've got the sale of the power right
Speaker 4: that you're signing a long term contract for, and you
Speaker 4: know that's where you make your return, right, Which is
Speaker 4: why I think Constellations stock price jumped so much because
Speaker 4: they have so many existing sites where a lot of
Speaker 4: those nuclear sites have one reactor and they were made
Speaker 4: for four reactors or five reactors, but we never built
Speaker 4: the rest and so while this one was the easiest
Speaker 4: way to get in right because it was a restart,
Speaker 4: there's all these other sites where you could build new reactors.
Speaker 4: And now that Microsoft has come in and said we
Speaker 4: want to buy all that output because we are taking
Speaker 4: seriously the commitments we made to twenty four x seven
Speaker 4: clean power by twenty thirty, then you now have the
Speaker 4: makings of an equation. And if you heard but like
Speaker 4: Meta came out right after that and said, we are
Speaker 4: also all in on nuclear power and meeting that twenty
Speaker 4: four x seven requirement.
Speaker 2: So we have a lot of physical capacity or just
Speaker 2: space capacity right now to add more reactors. And so
Speaker 2: that's sort of the exciting aspect walks through a little
Speaker 2: bit more of the math with the three mile Island deal. Specifically,
Speaker 2: for consolation, it's going to cost them one point six billion,
Speaker 2: I think, is what I've seen reported to get this
Speaker 2: reactor back up and running. And then Microsoft makes some
Speaker 2: sort of commitment where they're going to be a buyer
Speaker 2: over I don't know, X many years, like talk to
Speaker 2: us a little bit about more about this particular deal.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I don't know what the final cost of
Speaker 4: the Constellation restart will be, just because I think they
Speaker 4: still need to do more engineering work to figure out
Speaker 4: exactly what needs to be fixed. But there's some massmates
Speaker 4: floating around. The way that Microsoft and others sign these
Speaker 4: contracts is they don't actually buy the power. What they
Speaker 4: do is this thing called the contract for differences, okay,
Speaker 4: and so power generally gets sold into the open market
Speaker 4: to look into the PGM, and Microsoft says, depending on
Speaker 4: what happens with this power, we will make you hole
Speaker 4: on the payment. Right. So if we said that we're
Speaker 4: going to pay you know, nine cents coed hour, and
Speaker 4: you end up getting seven cents of code hour, we'll
Speaker 4: pay that two cent difference. And that includes not just
Speaker 4: the kill a what our price, but also includes the
Speaker 4: capacity payment.
Speaker 5: Right, So you may have.
Speaker 4: Heard that the PGAM had a very large increase in
Speaker 4: the price that the capacity payment cleared. And the capacity
Speaker 4: payment is essential because it convinces the coal plants or
Speaker 4: the natural gas plants or others who are sort of
Speaker 4: at the end of life to make investments to last
Speaker 4: a little longer because they got paid a capacity payment
Speaker 4: to stay open. So the pieces that come here are
Speaker 4: both the capacity payment and the energy payment. And Microsoft
Speaker 4: is saying that we get all the attributes, so we
Speaker 4: get to call our usage green, but separately like, if
Speaker 4: for whatever reason, the wholesale market value for what the
Speaker 4: nuclear power plant is creating is less than the strike
Speaker 4: price that we agreed to, then we will.
Speaker 5: Make you hold.
Speaker 3: So you mentioned the idea that there are some nuclear
Speaker 3: sites out there already that have spare capacity that could
Speaker 3: either be restarted or with new reactors or units built.
Speaker 3: So I guess I have two questions based on that.
Speaker 3: But one, if you have space in your nuclear facility,
Speaker 3: is that space specifically designed for one type of reactor already? Like,
Speaker 3: are you wetted to a particular model that you have
Speaker 3: to follow? And then secondly, what's the actual process to
Speaker 3: build a new reactor? Like I can't imagine you open
Speaker 3: up the nuclear reactor catalog and you know, you go like, ah,
Speaker 3: I'll take this one. How does it work?
Speaker 5: Well?
Speaker 4: So, just to start with your last question, first, it
Speaker 4: used to be that you did have a nuclear power catalog.
Speaker 4: Oh and that's the problem, right, that's why we have
Speaker 4: ninety you know plus reactors and only four of them
Speaker 4: are exactly the same. And so it used to be
Speaker 4: that used to be able to customize your and that
Speaker 4: led to a lot of inefficiencies. And so I hope
Speaker 4: and pray that this time around, when people build new
Speaker 4: nuclear they build the exact same cookie cutter thing every
Speaker 4: single time and we get our costs down. But to
Speaker 4: answer your question, so the Department of Energy commissioned to
Speaker 4: study to look at all of the fifty four sites
Speaker 4: that we have with nuclear plants. Some of them have
Speaker 4: one reactor, some of them have to, a couple have three,
Speaker 4: and then only one. The Vogel Nuclear Plant has four.
Speaker 4: And we can build any type of reactor on those
Speaker 4: empty sites because really it's just land that's behind a
Speaker 4: security perimeter, right, and that's what you care about is
Speaker 4: a security perimeter. And so we have about sixty five
Speaker 4: thousand megawatts of capacity at the existing nuclear sites, which
Speaker 4: is massive. If we use small modular reactors, right, which
Speaker 4: are the ones that are sort of in that three
Speaker 4: to six billion dollar range, and if we use AP
Speaker 4: one thousands, which is what we built at the Vogel,
Speaker 4: then you could build almost ninety five thousand megawats at
Speaker 4: those same sites. But those are more like ten to
Speaker 4: four fourteen billion dollars each, right, And so you have
Speaker 4: to decide whether you want to spend that much money.
Speaker 3: Are you limited at all? Or does space maybe become
Speaker 3: a factor in the sense that the hyperscalers want to
Speaker 3: be co located close to the plants.
Speaker 4: So they're not going to be within the security perimeter.
Speaker 4: They be outside of the security member. And most of
Speaker 4: these nuclear plants are in fairly the middle of location.
Speaker 4: These are somewheres I grew up near a New time side,
Speaker 4: but you know, but they're going to be well, let's
Speaker 4: say five to seven miles away, and so you don't
Speaker 4: need to use a transmission infrastructure and tax it. You
Speaker 4: can create your own line directly from the nuclear plant
Speaker 4: to the data center. And so that saves a lot
Speaker 4: of cost because now you don't have to pay for
Speaker 4: the transmission. And so that's why a lot of this
Speaker 4: colocation makes us sense. It also disrupts the grid the least.
Speaker 4: And then the other thing that is so great about
Speaker 4: this colocation idea is that the people who live around
Speaker 4: a nuclear power plant love nuclear power plants. The public
Speaker 4: perception of nuclear is that ninety plus percent around a
Speaker 4: nuclear power plant. And so you know, instead of going
Speaker 4: to a brand new spot where you might have a
Speaker 4: mixed reviews, it's easier publicly to use existing sites.
Speaker 2: It's good to know. Yeah, here's a random question. I've
Speaker 2: been one of those things that wanted to ask someone.
Speaker 2: I probably could have just tweeted it years ago. Sometimes
Speaker 2: I see these things it's like, oh, there's like a
Speaker 2: three year wait to like plug some new production of
Speaker 2: any sorts of energy into the grid. And I'm always like,
Speaker 2: is this just like someone like like go out and
Speaker 2: plug a line into the wall or something. What's that
Speaker 2: all about? And like why does it have to be
Speaker 2: that long?
Speaker 4: It's it really is an extraordinary thing, right. I think
Speaker 4: that you know, most people view electricity like water, right,
Speaker 4: so you just put a bigger pump in, you put
Speaker 4: in more pipe, it gets to your house.
Speaker 5: You got hot water.
Speaker 4: That's great. It's not like that at all. There is
Speaker 4: this complex physics equation that you have to solve.
Speaker 2: For because the greatest to be in perfect balance all
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: Well, so there's the there's the perfect balance between supply
Speaker 4: and demand, but then there's also figuring out, you know,
Speaker 4: what the constraints are of each individual segment on the
Speaker 4: transmission line.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: So if you're using power in New York City and
Speaker 4: you're creating a lot of extra power in out of
Speaker 4: the nuclear plants in Illinois, right then that power has
Speaker 4: to go via Indiana and Ohio and then through Pennsylvania
Speaker 4: to New York City, and they may or may not
Speaker 4: be able to carry that much, right, And so they
Speaker 4: have to do these studies. So every time you try
Speaker 4: to add something to the grid, they have to do
Speaker 4: a study, and they have to figure out whether that
Speaker 4: capacity is there, how often it's there, whether it would
Speaker 4: continue to be balanced, or whether it be imbalanced. And
Speaker 4: so the big fight there is that. So in Texas,
Speaker 4: what they do is they just look at the safety
Speaker 4: part of it, but they don't look at the capacity
Speaker 4: part of it. They just say, you like, connect at
Speaker 4: your own risk, and if we're clogged, we're just going
Speaker 4: to tell you to shut down, and that's on you, right.
Speaker 4: So that's why they're proving people super fast, whereas with
Speaker 4: a PGM and others they're saying, not only we're going
Speaker 4: to do a safety study, we're also going to do
Speaker 4: a capacity study, and we're not going to let you
Speaker 4: connect until this other generator shuts down and frees up
Speaker 4: capacity for your generator. And so that then makes the
Speaker 4: wait time much longer.
Speaker 3: Since you mentioned safety, just then, I got the impression
Speaker 3: that the other thing that's been holding nuclear back is
Speaker 3: I guess licensing barriers and regulation and things like that.
Speaker 3: Has anything changed on that front recently? I saw there
Speaker 3: was a bill over the summer called, I think the
Speaker 3: Advance Act or something like that that I think made
Speaker 3: some progress. But is that starting to evolve too?
Speaker 4: Yeah, So, I mean there's definitely been a lot of
Speaker 4: people giving their unsolicited advice to the NRC, saying we
Speaker 4: want to beat you up because we don't think you're
Speaker 4: moving fast enough. But when you think about it, it's
Speaker 4: only the vocal units three and four that they've had
Speaker 4: to process right, And ultimately what the people who built
Speaker 4: Vogel did was said, we are going to tell you
Speaker 4: exactly how we're going to build it, and then you
Speaker 4: hold us accountable to building it that exact way, and
Speaker 4: then you license it at the end, right, And so
Speaker 4: so that's what the NRC did. The alternative pathway is
Speaker 4: they can go in and say, we're just going to
Speaker 4: build this thing, like you're going to like preapprove that
Speaker 4: the fact that the license for the reactor is pretty
Speaker 4: safe and it's fine, but you're just going to like
Speaker 4: approve the as built drawings at the end right. Now,
Speaker 4: Like when you do that, well then it's a lot
Speaker 4: easier to get away with things being one inch off
Speaker 4: here and there, which is fine. But like if you
Speaker 4: give them as builts and say we're going to choose
Speaker 4: a licensing path where you hold us responsible to no changes,
Speaker 4: well then when they come in and inspect it, it's
Speaker 4: one inch off, they're like, you got to redo that
Speaker 4: and do it to exactly the specs you told us.
Speaker 4: So now all of the different reactor companies are deciding
Speaker 4: to go with this new pathway because it would be
Speaker 4: a lot cheaper. But you know, like then you have
Speaker 4: to wait till the end for them to say that
Speaker 4: something you did wasn't like a safety concern, and so
Speaker 4: it could cause you a lot more cost, which is
Speaker 4: why people generally don't do that, right. And so my
Speaker 4: thing with the NRC is that they have a job
Speaker 4: to do, not unlike the fed's dual mandate, right, Like
Speaker 4: the NRC now has a dual mandate.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: So with the Advance Act, it used to be that
Speaker 4: they just were safety minded. Now they're safety minded and
Speaker 4: they have to support the building of new nuclear right.
Speaker 4: And so the way this kind of stuff works is
Speaker 4: you got to flood the zone.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 4: So if you actually build ten reactors, it'll be amazing
Speaker 4: how efficient the NRC will become. But if you have
Speaker 4: all these people working there and you only do one reactor, well,
Speaker 4: then a lot of people are like, well, we have
Speaker 4: a lot of time on our hands and we're going
Speaker 4: to like study your application a lot more, right, And
Speaker 4: so the efficiency comes from people using the NRC more
Speaker 4: and actually like pushing a lot more reactors through.
Speaker 3: Joe, I can't wait for the Phillips curve of your
Speaker 3: incidents versus capacity built.
Speaker 2: Out Whenever the day that that is a debate. You
Speaker 2: can be sure that we are going to cover it.
Speaker 2: We talked a little bit in the beginning about the
Speaker 2: market's reaction to Constellation. So the market likes the deal,
Speaker 2: and as you mentioned, the market likes the sort of
Speaker 2: possibility that this has opened up of maybe the Constellation
Speaker 2: isn't just going to be in the business of running
Speaker 2: nuclear but actually building nuclear. You know, talk to us
Speaker 2: a little bit more about the prospect. And it gets
Speaker 2: also back to your point about how for this to
Speaker 2: actually work. It can't just be one offs. There has
Speaker 2: to be a series. It's like that thirteen thousand people
Speaker 2: that build Vogel, then they go onto the next project,
Speaker 2: and they go on to the next project. Where are
Speaker 2: we on the sort of I don't know, second derivative
Speaker 2: question of whether we have the sort of momentum in
Speaker 2: the industry to actually learn from the previous project and
Speaker 2: redeploy talented work and all these things that we need
Speaker 2: to get the cost curve bent down.
Speaker 4: So I think the first piece is right, yeah, And
Speaker 4: I think the why part of this is, as you suggested,
Speaker 4: there are three aspects to load growth.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 4: One is data centers and frankly, AI is not really
Speaker 4: a big part of it. It's mostly just clouds, an
Speaker 4: expansion of cloud But then there's some AI sprinkled in
Speaker 4: that's at least twenty five thousand megawatts of new load
Speaker 4: by the end of the decade.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 4: Then you've got all this success we've had with you know,
Speaker 4: the president's agenda around on shoring and reshoring, and so
Speaker 4: there's a bunch of five inner kilowatt and two megawatt
Speaker 4: and four megawatt manufacturing facilities that are popping up everywhere.
Speaker 4: Eight hundred new manufacturing facilities that have been announced, right
Speaker 4: and that are under construction or expanding. And then the
Speaker 4: third piece is you have this electrify Everything movement where
Speaker 4: a lot of people are buying electric vehicles and they're
Speaker 4: doing heat bumps and they're doing all these things. And
Speaker 4: so so you've got all three of these, and you know,
Speaker 4: then the question becomes like, how do you want to
Speaker 4: meet the load growth? And for a lot of the
Speaker 4: electric utility companies, remember, you know, they haven't had load
Speaker 4: growth in thirty years, right for sure for twenty years,
Speaker 4: and then very slow load growth in the nineties, and
Speaker 4: so they're now saying, can we do this with the
Speaker 4: tools that we have in front of us, and it
Speaker 4: looks like it's going to be really hard for them
Speaker 4: to do it with the tools that there are used
Speaker 4: to using. And so they're saying, we're going to need
Speaker 4: to figure out this nuclear thing, but also we're gonna
Speaker 4: have to figure out how to use geothermal, expanded hydro,
Speaker 4: et cetera. And so then the question becomes, you know,
Speaker 4: how does one wrap their brain around doing this right?
Speaker 4: Because the electric utility companies are filled with people who
Speaker 4: run them who generally, we're running a dividend yield stock, right,
Speaker 4: Like these are shareholders who are like, we want no volatility,
Speaker 4: we just want our dividends.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 4: And now you see like JP Morgan's Infrastructure Fund in
Speaker 4: others that are taking some of these utilities private and saying,
Speaker 4: we think you're a growth stock and we don't think
Speaker 4: that we could actually do this in the public market,
Speaker 4: so we're going to take you private and give you
Speaker 4: all the tools you need to become a growth stock. Right.
Speaker 4: And so they're some of those dynamics going on, and
Speaker 4: you've got a lot of governors who are yelling at
Speaker 4: the utilities saying, I spent so much time attracting all
Speaker 4: these manufacturers to our territory, and now you're giving them
Speaker 4: a three or four year timeline to interconnect.
Speaker 5: What the heck, right?
Speaker 4: Like, we want to create family sustaining jobs for all
Speaker 4: these people who want just to have a high school
Speaker 4: education and not go to college.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 4: And so the pressure on the electric utility companies is
Speaker 4: getting real, right. And so now you're in this situation
Speaker 4: where the question becomes, Okay, if we're going to do this,
Speaker 4: how do we do it right? And so we have
Speaker 4: been facilitating those conversations with the Nuclear Liftoff Report, with
Speaker 4: lots of conversations around what new tools might you want
Speaker 4: for risk mitigation from the federal government, how do you
Speaker 4: want to do this stuff? In Constellation, for instance, has said,
Speaker 4: we're amazing at running utility scale nuclear plans, but we
Speaker 4: don't know how to build nuclear plans, so we don't
Speaker 4: want to build them. We want other people to use
Speaker 4: our sites and we want them to build them and
Speaker 4: then we'll operate it right, because we're really good at operations.
Speaker 5: Right.
Speaker 4: And so you're starting to see a bifurcation of the
Speaker 4: market where there's some people who are doing development work
Speaker 4: and developing these sites and figuring out how to negotiate
Speaker 4: with the hyperskilled data center companies, etc. And then there
Speaker 4: are other people who are trying to figure out how
Speaker 4: do I construct these things and how do I build
Speaker 4: the workforce, etc. To do ten or twelve of these things.
Speaker 4: And then you've got others like Constellation who are saying,
Speaker 4: we have an interesting financial model, right, because they have
Speaker 4: to do subsequent license renewals of their plants that are
Speaker 4: reaching sixty years old to extend the life to eighty years, right,
Speaker 4: And so a lot of folks are saying, well, you
Speaker 4: know that's also a risky bet. That's probably going to
Speaker 4: be ten billion dollars of capex to do that. Well,
Speaker 4: if I had off take agreements from the hyperskilled data
Speaker 4: center companies, that would be a safer way for me
Speaker 4: to make that bet, right, because they're really risk averse.
Speaker 4: I mean even like I would say, up to like
Speaker 4: two weeks before this announcement around the restarting of the
Speaker 4: Crane Clean Energy Center, a lot of folks were like,
Speaker 4: I don't know, like how the stock markets can react
Speaker 4: to us, right, right, So they were really nervous, right,
Speaker 4: And now they've got the validation. I think that it
Speaker 4: gives them even more of an incentive to figure it
Speaker 4: to make more. But also the electric utilities, right, it's
Speaker 4: it gives electric utilities and an incentive to say, like,
Speaker 4: why are we being so risk averse? Like our shareholders
Speaker 4: will probably reward us for becoming a growth stock.
Speaker 3: You explained it very well just then. But in light
Speaker 3: of a lot of utilities starting to look like growth
Speaker 3: stocks AI adjacent growth stocks rather than like boring old
Speaker 3: divis in plays, are there new sources of financing that
Speaker 3: are potentially interested in the sector, Like have you seen
Speaker 3: the actual mix of funding, either the investors or the
Speaker 3: structure start to change?
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, you know, the reason why we're in
Speaker 4: the middle of this is because the Loan Program's Office
Speaker 4: has this expanded authority, and we are in the middle
Speaker 4: of all these conversations because everybody wants to figure out
Speaker 4: whether they can use the money out of the Energy
Speaker 4: Infrastructure Reinvestment program that we were given out of the
Speaker 4: Inflation Reduction Act or our traditional innovative clean energy program
Speaker 4: where we've got you know, probably one hundred and fifty
Speaker 4: billion dollars between the two of those programs of loan authority.
Speaker 4: And then you saw the big announcement from all the
Speaker 4: big banks this week saying that they are now pro nuclear.
Speaker 4: I don't exactly know what that means.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to ask you so, by the way,
Speaker 2: just for those curious recording this September twenty fourth, but yeah,
Speaker 2: keep going with it.
Speaker 4: And so, you know, I think in general, those big
Speaker 4: banks like to do balance sheet related investments, and so
Speaker 4: in some ways, I think they're signaling to the electric
Speaker 4: utility companies, where you know, a lot of these big
Speaker 4: banks own the debt for a lot of these companies
Speaker 4: that say, hey, you know, we're going to be pro
Speaker 4: you guys doing nuclear power. So I think that's good.
Speaker 4: I don't quite know exactly what they're going to do differently,
Speaker 4: but it used to be that they, you know, like
Speaker 4: a lot of the utility companies thought that their stock
Speaker 4: would be downgraded if they announced a new nuclear plant, right.
Speaker 4: So I mean, at the very least, I think everyone's
Speaker 4: sending a signal that we're not going to downgrade you.
Speaker 4: We actually want you to do this stuff. We want
Speaker 4: you to promote economic growth in the United States of America,
Speaker 4: and we're actually going to like, you know, give you
Speaker 4: tailwinds and so I think that message is being sent.
Speaker 2: Since we're talking about funding sources if we step away
Speaker 2: from nuclear for a second. I think it was last
Speaker 2: week I saw this report. There's this geothermal company called Fervo.
Speaker 2: There's always a lot of excitement about and I think
Speaker 2: they've raised some VC money, et cetera. Anyway, the report
Speaker 2: asserted that the problem for them, and I guess maybe
Speaker 2: you can explain it better, but I think geothermal is
Speaker 2: you stick a pipe in the ground and there's heat
Speaker 2: in the earth and it comes to and then the
Speaker 2: heat comes out, and that's energy that the vcs are
Speaker 2: maybe excited. But then project financing is a charge, whether
Speaker 2: it's the lending to actually like Okay, here's the funding
Speaker 2: that it's going to be for this site specific I
Speaker 2: don't know much about this. Who've never done a geothermal episode?
Speaker 2: From where you sit? Is that a real constraint either
Speaker 2: on geothermal specifically or other forms of energy? Which is
Speaker 2: that Yeah, maybe some investors like the idea of equity
Speaker 2: in some of these companies, but like the project financing
Speaker 2: component of whatever we're talking about is still not a
Speaker 2: mature market.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so geothermal is a very interesting technology, you know,
Speaker 4: as you may know. The traditional geothermal is you basically
Speaker 4: have to find a liquid that like sits under the earth,
Speaker 4: like sort of near a hot pocket, and then you
Speaker 4: basically like tap into it and then you let the
Speaker 4: liquid go up and down and then you know, and
Speaker 4: that's sort of how you do geothermal. This new enhanced
Speaker 4: geothermal allows you to create your own pockets and so
Speaker 4: use use modern hydraulic fracturing technologies. You drill you know,
Speaker 4: mile down or wherever it is, wherever you think that
Speaker 4: heat pocket is, and then you fracture the rock there
Speaker 4: and you put pipe in there, and then you basically
Speaker 4: allow the working flow to go down there. It gets
Speaker 4: super hot and it comes back up and now can
Speaker 4: turn a turbine right, And so as a result, you
Speaker 4: can do it anywhere. You can do it in New
Speaker 4: York State, you can do it in North Carolina, you
Speaker 4: can do it in Nevada. You can really do it anywhere.
Speaker 4: Now it's only really cost effective today in six states
Speaker 4: in the West, but once we get really good at that,
Speaker 4: then it should propagate across the United States because it's
Speaker 4: super cost effective. Again, though the first units are going
Speaker 4: to cost more, right, and so Fervo got a clean
Speaker 4: transition tariff signed with Nevada Energy, so Nevada Energy is
Speaker 4: buying their power, and then Google is buying it from
Speaker 4: Nevada Energy, so that Nevada Energy isn't taking this premium
Speaker 4: power and spreading it across all of their repairs, but
Speaker 4: Google will buy it. Right. And then they made another
Speaker 4: announcement recently that they had done more drilling tests and
Speaker 4: everything went far faster, far cheaper than they thought it would,
Speaker 4: and so they're getting closer to the oil and gas
Speaker 4: speed rates than the geothermal speed rates. Right, and Haliburton
Speaker 4: and SLB have said, Wow, this stuff is ridiculously easy.
Speaker 4: We like are happy to do all this drilling because
Speaker 4: this is child's play compared to what we do regularly
Speaker 4: for the oil and gas sector. Now, to answer your question,
Speaker 4: the problem is what the solar and wind industry are
Speaker 4: used to doing is getting money directly from large pension
Speaker 4: funds and pushing all the risk off to the contractors
Speaker 4: who do the work. And the contractors say, don't worry,
Speaker 4: we'll take cost over on risk. We'll do everything else
Speaker 4: because this stuff is crazy easy, and so now low
Speaker 4: cost infrastructure funds can invest in it. Right when you
Speaker 4: go into geothermal. Haliburton SLB say, we don't take any risk.
Speaker 4: You pay us as a drilling company, and sometimes we
Speaker 4: hit gold, and every once in a while we don't
Speaker 4: hit gold, but we're not guaranteeing you gold. You pay
Speaker 4: us for the drilling, you give us the subservice data.
Speaker 4: We'll do exactly what you tell us to do, and
Speaker 4: it works, it doesn't work. So then a lot of
Speaker 4: this low cost so and win money is saying that
Speaker 4: seems strange. You're saying, I could like have a cost
Speaker 4: overrun because you don't fail per se and enhance U thermal,
Speaker 4: it might just be able to build another hot pocket,
Speaker 4: like instead of five, you build six or seven, right,
Speaker 4: and so then costs a little bit more. I don't
Speaker 4: want to take that risk. I think someone else should
Speaker 4: take that risk. And after you've certified with inspector that
Speaker 4: you've done everything correctly, then will buy the project because
Speaker 4: we don't want to take that risk, right, And so
Speaker 4: they're going through this pathway where they need to find
Speaker 4: money from people who actually like taking that risk. And
Speaker 4: so that's why it was important to see that Fervo
Speaker 4: raise money from Devon Energy, which is clearly an expert
Speaker 4: at managing this kind of risk for fracking, and so
Speaker 4: they are not afraid of this risk at all. Right,
Speaker 4: but their cost of capital is clearly higher than super
Speaker 4: low costs, so or and win money. But they're willing
Speaker 4: to go faster because they are very comfortable with these risks.
Speaker 4: And so this whole thought process, how we're thinking this
Speaker 4: through is something that I had to do when I
Speaker 4: started son Edison back in two thousand and three and
Speaker 4: got all the big financial firms who thought solar was
Speaker 4: too risky to come in to the market. And so
Speaker 4: now we have to promote this exact kind of thinking
Speaker 4: across geothermal, long duration energy storage, nuclear hydro, like all
Speaker 4: these technologies that we've been researching for twenty or thirty years,
Speaker 4: and like it's ready for primetime.
Speaker 5: People are like, wait a.
Speaker 4: Second, that looks a little different than what I did yesterday.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it feels like the proof of concept is there.
Speaker 3: For instance, I really like geothermal just on a sort
Speaker 3: of individual housing basis, and it would work for my
Speaker 3: property in Connecticut. But the constraint for putting in geothermal
Speaker 3: in an old house in Connecticut is that you would
Speaker 3: have to tear everything up and put in the duct
Speaker 3: work to actually make it work. So on that note,
Speaker 3: are there other restraining factors on a lot of this
Speaker 3: new technology? I mean, that's kind of what we've been discussing.
Speaker 3: But setting aside the fine nancaying we have proof of
Speaker 3: concept for a lot of these what's holding back the growth?
Speaker 3: Are there physical realities perhaps or you know, shortages for
Speaker 3: instance of HVAC workers going back to the housing analogy
Speaker 3: that maybe are restraining growth.
Speaker 4: Well, we definitely have a huge problem with trained craftsmen, right,
Speaker 4: and so you know, I think that we're probably between
Speaker 4: five hundred thousand and a million people short, depending on
Speaker 4: your assumptions for how fast folks are going to retire
Speaker 4: from the craft And so it's an extraordinary thing, right,
Speaker 4: I mean, you could start at sixteen years old, become
Speaker 4: a union craftsman, be making six figures by the time
Speaker 4: you're thirty, and you know, have a family sustaining job. So, like,
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot of people who thought for
Speaker 4: a long time that their kids going into the trades
Speaker 4: was probably like not what they wanted to brag about
Speaker 4: at cocktail parties. But it's great to see that. Like
Speaker 4: in the last year, I've seen people start to brag
Speaker 4: about their kids going and becoming an electrician or a plumber,
Speaker 4: and so some of that stigma's going away, which is
Speaker 4: great because a lot of people need to go into
Speaker 4: the trades, and frankly, a lot of people don't want
Speaker 4: to take on the college debt, et cetera. I think
Speaker 4: the other constraints though, are really around the grid, which
Speaker 4: we talked about before, which is that no matter how
Speaker 4: much stuff we do to build new HVDC you know,
Speaker 4: high voltage DC lines or like grid enhancing technologies reconductoring
Speaker 4: existing lines to put new materials in there that can
Speaker 4: carry twice as much power, like, we're still going to
Speaker 4: be grid constrained. Right, So then the question becomes how
Speaker 4: efficiently are we using the grid. Geothermal and nuclear operate
Speaker 4: at like between seventy five and ninety two percent of
Speaker 4: the time, and so it's pumping electrons into the grid
Speaker 4: at that rate. Solar, you know, if you add two
Speaker 4: hours four hours of battery storage might get from twenty
Speaker 4: five percent to maybe thirty five percent, right, But so
Speaker 4: you're inefficiently using the grid. So now you might have
Speaker 4: to put a lot more storage on the front end
Speaker 4: of the transmission line to use the grid more efficiently
Speaker 4: and then put more storage in the back end of
Speaker 4: the line, which we call electric vehicles, to use that
Speaker 4: more efficiently, right, And so so we can get so
Speaker 4: much more out of the grid that we've already paid for,
Speaker 4: but we have to be intentional about the mix. So
Speaker 4: we love so and win and we should build as
Speaker 4: much of that as we can. But we also need
Speaker 4: a lot of this clean firm power generation to match
Speaker 4: it as we retire so many coal plants, not because
Speaker 4: of environmental regulations, but largely because they're at the end
Speaker 4: of life. I mean, many of these coal plants are
Speaker 4: requiring billions of dollars of additional investment to stay open,
Speaker 4: and people don't want to put that money into them.
Speaker 4: And so I think there's a lot of constraints around
Speaker 4: us basically deciding what we're going to get good at,
Speaker 4: right and where are we going to start the flywheel?
Speaker 4: I would suggest to you the flywheel has to get
Speaker 4: started across all these technologies. The IRA and the bill
Speaker 4: you know, legislation have been the single largest investment in
Speaker 4: starting this flywheel in the world, and so.
Speaker 5: We're super excited about it.
Speaker 4: But the other piece of it, I remember, is that
Speaker 4: everybody else in the world wants our solutions. So if
Speaker 4: we do it here, I mean Poland, Eastern Europe, all
Speaker 4: these other places want to use American nuclear designs, they
Speaker 4: want to use American technology, they don't want to be
Speaker 4: tied to Russia or China. And so part of this
Speaker 4: also is recognizing that like the world is looking to
Speaker 4: us to show this leadership. The President has passed all
Speaker 4: these laws, and now we need the private sector to
Speaker 4: be a little less worried about whether the stock price
Speaker 4: is going to go up and down. By showing leadership
Speaker 4: and recognize the last five people that were nervous about it,
Speaker 4: their stock price went up. It's like it's time to believe.
Speaker 2: Jiggershaw, thank you so much for coming back on odd lots,
Speaker 2: kind of perfect timing all of this news to announce,
Speaker 2: and for your point. So far the stock market seems
Speaker 2: to be helping your efforts. So thank you so much.
Speaker 5: Oh thanks for having me me, Tracy.
Speaker 2: I always really like talking to Jigger. You know, this
Speaker 2: sort of reminded me not even related to this conversation.
Speaker 2: I have one of my friends who is more i
Speaker 2: would say, on the right side of the ideological spectrum,
Speaker 2: and he's always he's like, I think you mentioned to
Speaker 2: me once He's like, I don't really care about climate
Speaker 2: and all that stuff renewable energy, but when I hear
Speaker 2: Jigger talk like, yeah, I'm totally on board, it's always
Speaker 2: great talking, very compelling.
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean, I do think one of the things
Speaker 3: that has perhaps changed a lot of the equation is
Speaker 3: also the experience of the pandemic, which did not necessarily
Speaker 3: cause shortages in energy per se, but certainly kicked off
Speaker 3: a general awareness of wider infrastructure and the idea that
Speaker 3: you can get choke points in certain vital things for
Speaker 3: the economy. So I think that is like kind of
Speaker 3: always hovering in the background. And from that perspective, even
Speaker 3: if you don't like cleaned energy for some reason, you
Speaker 3: probably like cheap energy. Yeah, and so hearing about potential
Speaker 3: expansion in capacity should be a good thing.
Speaker 2: I really like how much this story is kind of
Speaker 2: a stock market story, and I think it's one of
Speaker 2: the things that makes it particularly exciting for us at
Speaker 2: this podcast, where it's like truly at the intersection.
Speaker 3: Capital markets plus clean energy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like engineering real world things. So, for example, I
Speaker 2: liked his explanation of like why it's not trivial to
Speaker 2: just add massive amounts of power because all of the
Speaker 2: balancing that has to go on throughout the entire expanse
Speaker 2: of the grid from Illinois to New York and everything.
Speaker 2: But then also this role, like it really does make
Speaker 2: a difference. Like if the stock market rewards your deal,
Speaker 2: then you want to do more of them, and all
Speaker 2: your competitors will want to do more of them, and
Speaker 2: so sort of like this signal from.
Speaker 3: This signaling effect. I was about to say exactly that.
Speaker 3: So you can scratch your head and be like, well,
Speaker 3: why are the banks putting out with statement saying they
Speaker 3: like nuclear energy now? But like the value is the
Speaker 3: signaling effect, right, And it is kind of crazy. So
Speaker 3: again we're recording this on September twenty fourth, but just
Speaker 3: in the past few days there have been like five
Speaker 3: or six positive like nuclear rel related things that have happened.
Speaker 3: Kind of crazy.
Speaker 2: Totally, And to Jigger's point about like it's sort of
Speaker 2: a tragedy if you build the Vogel plant in Georgia
Speaker 2: and then you have all these people trained on how
Speaker 2: to construct a nuclear reactor and then that to the
Speaker 2: end of the line and then everyone goes to get
Speaker 2: a job in some other field. We're not going to
Speaker 2: have cheaper, more abundant energy unless what we've learned from
Speaker 2: one project quickly gets deployed to the next project, which
Speaker 2: is why all those lift off reports from the DEE.
Speaker 2: Like Jiggers talked about this on past episodes, the order
Speaker 2: book is just absolutely key.
Speaker 3: I'm thinking about the nuclear reactor catalog now, maybe it'll
Speaker 3: maybe it'll come back, but it'll only be like two
Speaker 3: pages long, and it'll be like the model T where
Speaker 3: you can have the nuclear reactor in black, gray, gray
Speaker 3: or gray.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: All right, yes, looking forward to that catalog arriving in
Speaker 2: my inbox.
Speaker 5: Shar on Christmas time.
Speaker 3: Shall we leave it there?
Speaker 2: Let's leave it there.
Speaker 3: This has been another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast.
Speaker 3: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway.
Speaker 2: And I'm Jill Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart.
Speaker 2: Follow Jiggershaw. He's at Jiggershaw DC. Follow our producers Carmen
Speaker 2: Rodriguez at Kerman Arman dash Ol Bennett at Dashbock and
Speaker 2: kel Brooks at Keil Brooks. Thank you to our producer
Speaker 2: Moses ONEm For more Oddlocks content, go to Bloomberg dot
Speaker 2: com slash od Lots. We have transcripts, a blog, and
Speaker 2: a newsletter and you can chaut about all of these
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