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Speaker 1: Hey guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,

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Speaker 3: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 4: Happy Monday, Welcome to Breaking Points. As you saw, no

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Speaker 4: overhead shot because there's nobody in the studio, although the

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Speaker 4: crew is holding down the ford there so today. I'll

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Speaker 4: be joined later in the program by comedian Dave Smith.

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Speaker 4: We're going to start with Dave Smith and I are

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Speaker 4: going to interview Amir Tabona, columnist at Howarett's, about the

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Speaker 4: recent Howaretz report about the aid site massacres and IDF

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Speaker 4: soldiers being instructed to shoot at or toward civilians who

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Speaker 4: are seeking aid. We're also going to talk about to

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Speaker 4: Bone's new column suggesting that Donald Trump is once again

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Speaker 4: screwing up with Netan Yahoo by pushing to have the

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Speaker 4: charges dropped against him rather than putting pressure on him.

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Speaker 4: We're going to start the program with Dave day, an

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Speaker 4: editor of The American Prospect, to talk about the Big

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Speaker 4: Beautiful Bill, which is hurtling towards passage in the Senate today.

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Speaker 4: We're also going to talk about the reaction over the

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Speaker 4: weekend to zoron Mom Donnie's win by Democratic elite Sakeen

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Speaker 4: Jeffries saying he's not willing to endorse him as of yet.

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Speaker 4: And then we're going to finish with Aiden Karney, who

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Speaker 4: many of you may know as doctor Turtle Boy. Aiden

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Speaker 4: Carney is the local reporter in Massachusetts who really brought

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Speaker 4: the Karen Reid trial to national attention. We'll talk a

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Speaker 4: little bit about the Reed trial itself, but mostly we're

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Speaker 4: going to talk about what is becoming a very important

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Speaker 4: press freedom case. This part has been overlooked by the

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Speaker 4: media that has been focusing on the Karen Reid trial.

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Speaker 4: But Aiden Carney, who the reporter who effectively broke this story,

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Speaker 4: is facing multiple charges directly related to his journalism in

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Speaker 4: this case, and so we're going to talk about that

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Speaker 4: and why it's so important for us to keep the

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Speaker 4: focus on it even as Karen Reid has been acquitted

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Speaker 4: and people are moving on now to the phase of

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Speaker 4: doing more documentaries and movies about it. But to start

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Speaker 4: the program, we're going to be joined by Dave dan

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Speaker 4: to talk about the ongoing debate and senate over the

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Speaker 4: Big Beautiful Bill. So the Big Beautiful Bill. Joining me

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Speaker 4: to talk about that is American Prospect editor Dave Dayan. Dave,

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Speaker 4: thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 5: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 4: So this thing is barreling through Congress. The House said

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Speaker 4: that they were going to get it done by Memorial Day.

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Speaker 4: Kind of people scoffed at that they got it done

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Speaker 4: by Memorial Day. The Senate said they're going to get

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Speaker 4: it done by July fourth. That's the arbitrary deadline that

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Speaker 4: they set. They had. They got it through a procedural

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Speaker 4: vote over the weekend and are have now moved into

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Speaker 4: the debate phase. As you and I are speaking, the

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Speaker 4: debate is ongoing and they're going to be moving towards

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Speaker 4: you know, votes, towards eventual final passage, you know, any

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Speaker 4: any moment now like this is, this train is as

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Speaker 4: far left, the station is about to pullland to the

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Speaker 4: White House unless something calamitous happens between now and then

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Speaker 4: to Klambus for Republicans. Uh So, let's let's unpack some

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Speaker 4: of the objections to this bill that Republicans are are

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Speaker 4: putting forward and then talk about what this thing means.

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Speaker 4: So let's start with a six. This is Tom Tillis,

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Speaker 4: who announced right around this time that you're seeing him

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Speaker 4: on the floor, that you know what, he's not going

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Speaker 4: to run for reelection for it in North Carolina after

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Speaker 4: Trump got ticked with him and said he was going

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Speaker 4: to recruit a primary challenger to him. So here's Tilli's

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Speaker 4: talking about some of his objections to the bill.

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Speaker 6: Between the state directed payments and the cuts scheduled in

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Speaker 6: this bill, there's a reduction of state directed payments and

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Speaker 6: then there's the reduction of the provider tax. They can't

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Speaker 6: find a hole in my estimate. So what they told

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Speaker 6: me is that yeah, it's rough, but North Carolina's use

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Speaker 6: the system.

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Speaker 4: They're going to have to make it work, all right.

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Speaker 6: So what do I tell six hundred and sixty three

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Speaker 6: thousand people in two years or three years when President

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Speaker 6: Trump breaks his promise by pushing them off of Medicaid

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Speaker 6: because the funding's not there anymore, when the White House

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Speaker 6: richer's advising the President are not telling him that the

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Speaker 6: effect of this bill is to break up promise. And

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Speaker 6: you know, the last time I saw a promise broken

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Speaker 6: around health care with respect to my friends on the

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Speaker 6: other side of the aisle, is when somebody said, if

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Speaker 6: you like your health care, you.

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Speaker 4: Could keep it.

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Speaker 6: If you like your doctor, you could keep it. We

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Speaker 6: found out that wasn't true. That made me the second

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Speaker 6: Republican Speaker of the House since the Civil War, Ladies

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Speaker 6: and gentlemen, because we betrayed the promise to the American people.

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Speaker 6: Two years later, three years later, it actually made me

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Speaker 6: a US Senator because in twenty ten it had just

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Speaker 6: been proposed and just anticipation of what was going to

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Speaker 6: happen was enough to have a sea change election. That's

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Speaker 6: what Republicans into the majority for the second time in

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Speaker 6: one hundred years. Now, Republicans are about to make a

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Speaker 6: mistake on healthcare and betray sang a promise. It is

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Speaker 6: inescapable that this bill in its current form will betray

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Speaker 6: the very promise that Donald J. Trump made in the

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Speaker 6: Oval office or in the cabinet room when I was

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Speaker 6: there with finance, where he said, we can go after

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Speaker 6: a waste, fraud and abuse on any programs.

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Speaker 4: And we can get into some moment. The fact is

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Speaker 4: probably the fastest growing in industry in North Carolina is

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Speaker 4: the clean energy industry, which this bill also just takes

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Speaker 4: an absolute sledgehammer two. So it's not just the medicaid

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Speaker 4: cust to till us is gonna you know, has a

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Speaker 4: problem with Let's let's uh, let's let's roll Holly quick

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Speaker 4: because Holly voted yes, Josh Holly, but made a passionate

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Speaker 4: argument for why he should have voted no. So let's

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Speaker 4: let's roll a little bit of Holly.

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Speaker 7: We can't be cutting health care for working people and

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Speaker 7: for poor people in order to constantly give special tax

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Speaker 7: treatments corporations. Others said, we've we've built in the spill,

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Speaker 7: but unless we take further changes, take for.

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Speaker 8: The steps that will happen in future.

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Speaker 1: Understand, I sweep if.

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Speaker 7: We're gonna be working fort party, we've got for ten

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Speaker 7: thirty people and I just to medicate stuff here. I

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Speaker 7: think it's bad. I think we've we've delayed the worst

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Speaker 7: in it and in a short term for my state,

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Speaker 7: you know it's going to be fine, but we as

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Speaker 7: on going forward basis we cannot but one like this.

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Speaker 7: I think that part of has a lot of thinking

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Speaker 7: to do.

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Speaker 4: An Alabama Senator Katie Britt appeared on I believe was

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Speaker 4: Jake Tapper's program, was pressed on this as well. Let's

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Speaker 4: her argument is basically, na uh, this is not happening.

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Speaker 4: So let's roll, Katie Britt, talk about.

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Speaker 9: Them in terms of your constituents, because they are about

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Speaker 9: seven hundred and sixty thousand Alabamas who.

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Speaker 4: Rely on Medicaid.

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Speaker 9: The bill will also cut federal funding for food stamps

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Speaker 9: or require states to kick in more and shift a

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Speaker 9: lot of that cost to Alabama. And that's more than

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Speaker 9: seven hundred and fifty thousand Alabamas who rely on what

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Speaker 9: we're what we're gonna call food stamps, including three hundred

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Speaker 9: and thirty thousand children. So are you guaranteeing that these

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Speaker 9: changes that you were voting for Monday presumably will not

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Speaker 9: hurt recipients in Alabama of Medicaid, of food stamps or

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Speaker 9: SNAP for those who are citizens and for those who

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Speaker 9: truly need it and deserve it absolutely.

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Speaker 10: So when you look at Medicaid children, obviously we have

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Speaker 10: the Children's Health Insurance Program, so children are absolutely not

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Speaker 10: touched by this same thing when it comes to SNAP benefits,

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Speaker 10: So we've made sure that that is taken off the table.

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Speaker 10: What you're talking about is able bodied, working aged Americans

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Speaker 10: without dependence at home, having them work, train, volunteer in

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Speaker 10: some capacity twenty hours a week in order to receive

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Speaker 10: those government benefits. This goes back to Bill Clinton era politics,

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Speaker 10: when you know that being a part of something bigger

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Speaker 10: than yourselves, helping to contribute is ultimately what we need

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Speaker 10: to do. And it's actually the American people agree with

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Speaker 10: us on this. But when you look at what's happening

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Speaker 10: in Alabama specifically, you think about what you mentioned with

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Speaker 10: regards to SNAP. What we're doing on that is ensuring

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Speaker 10: that states have some skin in the game. If you

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Speaker 10: have an error rate that is down below six percent,

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Speaker 10: which Alabama is about a percentage point a little bit

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Speaker 10: over that above that, we will have time. We have

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Speaker 10: several years to make sure that we get that percentage

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Speaker 10: point down, and I have every faith and belief that

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Speaker 10: we will. We've got to make sure that these overpayments

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Speaker 10: under payments that are happening. We've seen it in our

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Speaker 10: own state, where people's benefits are being stolen from other states,

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Speaker 10: that that stuff stops if states. Obviously under the Biden administration,

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Speaker 10: we stopped that accountability during for the SNAP program. Reinstituting

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Speaker 10: it and ensuring that states have some skin in the

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Speaker 10: game will ultimately help us be able to deliver these

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Speaker 10: resources and services that these people so desperately need.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, I've heard your fellow Senator Taberville talk

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Speaker 9: about he's worried that your state can't afford it, Your

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Speaker 9: state can't afford to pick up the slack.

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Speaker 10: What we can afford to do is get it right,

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Speaker 10: all right, Dave.

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Speaker 4: So the Medicaid cuts are the debate really zeros in

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Speaker 4: on the work requirement that is being put into place here.

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Speaker 4: There's a lot more going on than just just a

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Speaker 4: work requiring because I think for the the Republicans thought

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Speaker 4: that by talking about the work requirement they would win

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Speaker 4: a public debate because people, you know, a lot of

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Speaker 4: people are like, all right, you know, hey, it's not

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Speaker 4: so much to volunteer or to you know, make sure

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Speaker 4: you're trying to work if your state's going to give

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Speaker 4: you this benefit. There's a lot more going on, and

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Speaker 4: Tillis alluded to a lot of it. There you unpack,

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Speaker 4: you know, a little bit more of what's going on,

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Speaker 4: Like why is why is Tillis so so convinced that

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Speaker 4: this actually will deal a significant blow to people on Medicaid.

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Speaker 5: Well, I forgot my bolo tie today, but I'll try.

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Speaker 11: We can.

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Speaker 12: We can, like photoshop from New Mexico to wear a

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Speaker 12: bolo tie on the Senate Florida.

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Speaker 4: But when when you're when you're retiring, you do whatever

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Speaker 4: you want.

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Speaker 11: Okay.

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Speaker 12: So what Tillis is talking about are two things that

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Speaker 12: the Senate build added the Senate version of this bill.

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Speaker 12: One is provider taxes and the other is state directed payments.

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Speaker 12: These are both ways in which states get additional resources

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Speaker 12: to fund their Medicaid programs. You know, Republicans have called

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Speaker 12: them gimmicks, but the reality in the context of this

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Speaker 12: bill is it's just more money for Medicaid. The way

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Speaker 12: the provider tax works is states tax healthcare providers but

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Speaker 12: then also give them higher reimbursements on Medicaid payments, and

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Speaker 12: so the hospitals and clinics make out even but the

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Speaker 12: states aren't really kicking.

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Speaker 11: In that share.

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Speaker 12: They get the taxes, but they don't kick in everything

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Speaker 12: because there's a state federal match on Medicaid payments. So

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Speaker 12: it's a way to get more federal dollars into the

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Speaker 12: state that pays for the Medicaid program. And if that

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Speaker 12: is capped or actually ramped down, so those tax provider

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Speaker 12: taxes have to be lower over time, starting I believe

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Speaker 12: in twenty twenty eight and moving on through twenty thirty two,

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Speaker 12: then there's simply less money for Medicaid. And the state

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Speaker 12: directive payments are a similar thing, where Medicaid pays a

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Speaker 12: fairly low reimbursement rate, and what states have done have

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Speaker 12: appealed to the federal government to top off that reimbursement

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Speaker 12: rate so to ensure that hospitals and doctors actually care

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Speaker 12: for Medicaid patients.

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Speaker 5: And the Senate bill cuts that and limits that to

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Speaker 5: a degree.

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Speaker 12: So both of those things basically stop the states from

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Speaker 12: getting the amount of money they need right now.

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Speaker 5: They don't have.

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Speaker 12: Extra money sitting around in the states for Medicaid, so

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Speaker 12: what they would have to do is cut the program.

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Speaker 12: And this is the interesting way in which the federal

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Speaker 12: government can say, well, we're not cutting medicaid, we're just

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Speaker 12: doing this and that and the other thing. But they're

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Speaker 12: forcing states to cut medicaid, right, So it's it's just

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Speaker 12: sort of a one step removed kind of situation.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And I want to try to give the Republicans

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Speaker 4: there the Pharos shake in their in their argument here,

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Speaker 4: and you mentioned that, you know, they they say these

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Speaker 4: aren't really cuts, we're just kind of getting rid of

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Speaker 4: of gimmicks. And there's some semantics going on here, but

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Speaker 4: I understand what they're saying. And like one of the

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Speaker 4: things Katie Britt was referring to there is if you

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Speaker 4: move from you know, Alabama to California, you know, in

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Speaker 4: a lot of situations, the state Alabama, for instance, will

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Speaker 4: still be getting credit for you living in you know,

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Speaker 4: you might you don't automatically just leave the roles necessarily,

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Speaker 4: so you might still be Alabama might be getting credit

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Speaker 4: for you being on the roles in Alabama, while California

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Speaker 4: also gets credit. And so the federal government on on

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Speaker 4: some level is double paying. It's like in California and

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Speaker 4: paying out Alabama to treat the same person. So what

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Speaker 4: they're saying is we're going to cramp down on that.

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Speaker 4: But what it leads to, well, we don't know how

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Speaker 4: frequent that is. But what then it leads to, it's

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Speaker 4: just less money for Alabama. Then, so the reason why

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Speaker 4: they're getting less money is almost besides the point because, right,

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Speaker 4: they've been counting on it for many years. That's just

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Speaker 4: how the system runs.

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Speaker 12: They've built their Medicaid program around the expectation.

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Speaker 4: That this money comes in that it's going to be

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Speaker 4: pretty stable, right.

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Speaker 12: And the other thing in the bill, and it's not

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Speaker 12: just work requirements but changes to biden error enrollment efficiencies

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Speaker 12: that were put in by rule. The entire idea here

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Speaker 12: is to make it harder to sign up for Medicaid.

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Speaker 12: I mean, once again, the idea is, oh, no, we're

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Speaker 12: not cutting the program, but we're just going to make

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Speaker 12: it impossible to get it.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 12: It's the example is in the pre Obamacare days, the

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Speaker 12: insurance office would be on the seventh floor and there

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Speaker 12: would be no working elevator, so no sick people could

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Speaker 12: actually get to the insurance office to enroll for insurance.

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Speaker 12: And it's a similar kind of thing. They're just making

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Speaker 12: it harder to sign up for Medicaid and the ideas

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Speaker 12: a lot of I believe it's something like Matt Brunneck

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Speaker 12: had this number, something like sixty percent of the eligible

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Speaker 12: population here works and is on Medicaid. But the churn

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Speaker 12: is expected because you have to constantly update and constantly

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Speaker 12: add forms to make sure. So there's like a strangling

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Speaker 12: of Medicaid through the bureaucracy here. And there are work

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Speaker 12: requirements on SNAP as well that have the same function.

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Speaker 4: Right, It's like, if it's you against the bureaucracy, the

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Speaker 4: bureaucracy is going to win most of those fights. Don't

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Speaker 4: win those fights against me, Like I cannot keep up

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Speaker 4: with the forms and the and the requirements and when

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Speaker 4: this is due, and like you have to have it

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Speaker 4: in triplicate, and you have to you know, send a

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Speaker 4: notarized copy of your driver's license and like. And if

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Speaker 4: the goal of them is to set up a process

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Speaker 4: that most people will fail, they will succeed at that.

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Speaker 11: Yeah.

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Speaker 12: I would just add one more thing that hasn't been

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Speaker 12: talked about a lot with respect to Medicaid, which is

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Speaker 12: there are new cost sharing requirements for individuals who are

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Speaker 12: on the Medicaid program in certain contexts. So that means

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Speaker 12: that people on Medicaid will just have to pay more

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Speaker 12: if they want to do a doctor's visit or a

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Speaker 12: test or anything like that.

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Speaker 5: And the likely result, these are very poor people.

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Speaker 12: When you're talking about the Medicaid population, the likely result

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Speaker 12: is they will not be able to pay and therefore

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Speaker 12: will not try to pay, they won't go to the doctor.

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Speaker 12: So the savings, once again, they can say, we're not

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Speaker 12: cutting Medicaid, but we're making it harder to use. And

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Speaker 12: if you're making it harder to use, that's an effective cut.

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Speaker 4: And so Musk has been, you know, absolutely melting down

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Speaker 4: over over this bill. And let's let's put up the

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Speaker 4: first multiple tweets that people can go find. So here

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Speaker 4: here's one of his where he says, the latest Senate

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Speaker 4: draft bill will destroy millions of jobs in America and

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Speaker 4: cause immense strategic harm to our country. Utterly insane and destructive.

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Speaker 4: It gives handouts to industries of the past while severely

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Speaker 4: damaging industries of the future. So he's talking here about

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Speaker 4: the sledgehammer that the bill takes to not just the

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Speaker 4: clean energy industry, but kind of the energy industry overall,

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Speaker 4: because the energy industry also is going to require the

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Speaker 4: production of more transformers and transmission lines and general federal

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Speaker 4: investment into building the infrastructure that they say we will

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Speaker 4: need for all the cloud storage AI plus the you know,

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Speaker 4: ramping up of electrification of.

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Speaker 8: Ug on people.

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Speaker 5: Some people would say that this is just a reversal

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Speaker 5: of the inflation reduction acts investments in energy, mostly clean energy,

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Speaker 5: but it was technology neutral, so a lot of things

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Speaker 5: could be subsidized. It doesn't just take away that does

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Speaker 5: tax credits for clean energy. It actually adds a new

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Speaker 5: tax on solar and wind.

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Speaker 12: And the only way to get out of that tax

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Speaker 12: it's to ensure not a single speck of your project

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Speaker 12: includes anything that's Chinese made.

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Speaker 5: And this is kind of an impossibility right now.

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Speaker 12: It would require complete change to supply chains, which maybe

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Speaker 12: is something we should do, but is not something we

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Speaker 12: can do in the time period scheduled because the tax

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Speaker 12: would kick in in twenty twenty seven, and that's two

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Speaker 12: years away, and so I've heard energy experts describe this

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Speaker 12: as a total kill shot for wind and for solar.

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Speaker 12: In the meantime, there is a new tax incentive production

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Speaker 12: tax credit for metallurgical coal, the kind of coal that's

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Speaker 12: made used in steel. There's a tax break on big

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Speaker 12: oil that was stuck in by Oklahoma Senator James Langford.

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Speaker 12: That is for domestic drillers, mostly based in Oklahoma, who

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Speaker 12: would be exempt from the alternative minimum tax for corporations

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Speaker 12: that Elizabeth Warren put into the Inflation Reduction Act, So

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Speaker 12: it would mean that domestic oil drillers might not have

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Speaker 12: to pay any taxes at all. And there's also the

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Speaker 12: only tax that it not only tax credit from the

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Speaker 12: IRA that it not only maintains but expands, is a

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Speaker 12: tax credit for biofuels, which is basically ethanol, the use

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Speaker 12: of corn and soy to make fuels, which studies have

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Speaker 12: shown is actually worse for the environment than if you

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Speaker 12: would use gasoline because it's such an immense land use.

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Speaker 12: This completely upends the energy market in the US. We

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Speaker 12: already have strains on the grid because of data centers,

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Speaker 12: because of increased demand, and not only will this likely

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Speaker 12: raise electricity rates, but there is a very strong likelihood

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Speaker 12: that you will get blackouts more often.

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Speaker 5: Because of this bill.

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Speaker 4: Let's put up a four real quickly, and I want

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Speaker 4: to dig in on your point there. This is again

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Speaker 4: another Elon Musk tweet where you know, he's elevating somebody

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Speaker 4: else who said, like, by twenty twenty thirty, China could

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Speaker 4: have the ability to produce enough solar and storage infrastructure

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Speaker 4: each year to match the entire electricity generation capacity of

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Speaker 4: the United States. Contexts there, of course, being you know,

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Speaker 4: the the AI race and the tech race between the

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Speaker 4: US and China, and energy being you know, the most

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Speaker 4: important fundamental input. So you could imagine our strategic decision

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Speaker 4: makers if given the choice and we're there now forcing

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Speaker 4: the choice upon themselves of powering AI and storage and

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Speaker 4: cloud or powering your home, They're going to choose powering

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Speaker 4: the AI and the cloud storage, and you are going

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Speaker 4: to get a blackout. And I don't think people have

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Speaker 4: really internalized the likelihood of this. As somebody from California

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Speaker 4: who's a little closer to the edge of the energy

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Speaker 4: debate tell us a little bit about why we may

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Speaker 4: wind up in this world where the richest country in

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Speaker 4: the world is going to kind of foist rolling blackouts

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Speaker 4: on itself.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it's a simple demand situation, right.

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Speaker 12: We currently are at the limits of demand that we

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Speaker 12: have for energy, and with this rollout of more data centers,

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Speaker 12: more of the components used in AI, that's going to

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Speaker 12: require a massive amount of electricity, meaning demand is going

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Speaker 12: to go up. And if demand goes up and you

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Speaker 12: don't have the supply available, you know they're talking about,

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Speaker 12: oh well, we'll build nuclear. There really is no schedule

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Speaker 12: for more than maybe one or two nuclear plants to

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Speaker 12: be built in the next decade. It's just not a

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Speaker 12: quick acting kind of situation.

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Speaker 5: And whereas you could.

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Speaker 12: Continue the massive increase in solar in particular that we've

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Speaker 12: seen over the last couple of years, Basically something like

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Speaker 12: eighty to ninety percent of all the new electricity generation

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Speaker 12: that has been installed over the last several years is

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Speaker 12: from either solar or battery storage. And so if you're

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Speaker 12: taking that away, if you're making that impossible to pencil out,

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Speaker 12: you're making that not cost effective to build. You're relying

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Speaker 12: on natural gas on nuclear things that have basically stagnated,

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Speaker 12: and that means you're not going to keep up with demand,

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Speaker 12: and the result is that somebody can't get power. I mean,

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Speaker 12: if you don't have enough enough power that people want,

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Speaker 12: someone's going to be left holding the.

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Speaker 4: Bad And so paying for all this, what we're paying

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Speaker 4: for is massive tax cuts for the rich, right, Can

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Speaker 4: you talk a little bit about what the other side, like,

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Speaker 4: who's getting the benefits of this bill and to what tune?

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Speaker 12: Sure, So it's an extension of the twenty seventeen Trump

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Speaker 12: tax cuts. Those were certainly tilted towards the wealthy. There

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Speaker 12: are also these new tax cuts, these kind of populous

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Speaker 12: tax cuts that Trump talked about during the campaign. No

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Speaker 12: tax on tips, no tax on overtime, no tax on overtime.

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Speaker 12: There's an alleged no tax on Social Security, but it

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Speaker 12: has nothing to do with Social Security. There's a temporary

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Speaker 12: boost to the standard deduction if you're over the age

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Speaker 12: of sixty five. There is also, and the Senate added

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Speaker 12: this a number of business tax cuts that are being

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Speaker 12: made permanent in this bill, on research and development and

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Speaker 12: business expensing and things like that. So you know, you

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Speaker 12: put that all together. There's also an increase that effectively

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Speaker 12: repeals the estate tax.

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Speaker 5: I mean the increase.

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Speaker 12: Now the threshold for actually having to pay the federal

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Speaker 12: estate tax is so high that you're effectively eliminating any

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Speaker 12: any family or estate from having to pay it.

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Speaker 5: What you're putting it at it's something like thirty million.

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Speaker 5: I think.

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Speaker 12: It's a pretty extreme number. You know, there are all

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Speaker 12: kinds of tricks that are done. I mean, if you're

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Speaker 12: if you're holding this, you know, you still have to

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Speaker 12: step up in basis. So if you're holding all of

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Speaker 12: your assets in stocks and equities, and when you die,

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Speaker 12: you step up to the level that it was at

441
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 12: and you don't pay an additional tax on that. So

442
00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 12: I mean, there's a whole host of ways to gain

443
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 12: the system, and now it's not as hard to gain.

444
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 5: So you know, basically you put these all together.

445
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 12: And by the way, all of those tax cuts are

446
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 12: much more expensive than the spending cuts that have been

447
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 12: put into offset it. Congressional Budget Office came out and

448
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 12: said three point three trillion dollars and that's before interest expensing.

449
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 5: Is how much this bill would cost.

450
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 12: The way that the Republicans get around this is through

451
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 12: a gimmick known as the current Policy baseline, and my

452
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 12: understanding that may have already been voted on by the

453
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 12: time we're talking, because that was going to be the

454
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 12: first thing to be voted on in the vote rama

455
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 12: here on the Senate floor. The current Policy Baseline says that, oh,

456
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 12: if the current policy is these Trump tax cuts, these

457
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 12: individual tax cuts. If we extend that, that doesn't cost

458
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 12: any money because it's just keeping the same system that

459
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 12: we have in place now. If you use a current

460
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 12: law baseline, which says those expire at the end of

461
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 12: the year and you have to pay to fund those

462
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,479
Speaker 12: tax cuts, it would be three point eight trillion dollars.

463
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 12: This is why you'll hear Republicans say, actually, this bill

464
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 12: saves the federal government five hundred billion dollars, because they're

465
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,040
Speaker 12: waving a magic wand around the Trump tax cuts and

466
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 12: say those don't cost any money. So it's actually important

467
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 12: because the budget reconciliation rules dictate that this bill would

468
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 12: be out of compliance and unable to pass under these

469
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 12: rules if they didn't use the current policy baseline.

470
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 4: So if you give me twenty dollars today, that'll cost

471
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 4: you twenty dollars. But if you give me twenty dollars

472
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 4: every day forever after that, it doesn't actually cost you anything.

473
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 12: I mean, the good analogy is that the analogy is

474
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 12: that Democrats and they should they get a trifecta again,

475
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 12: could pass the Medicare for All for One Day Act,

476
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 12: which would cost one day's worth of Medicare for All,

477
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 12: and then the next bill after that would extend it

478
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 12: for ten years and say, hey, it's just the current

479
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 12: policy today.

480
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 5: So I guess I guess that's okay.

481
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 4: Unfortunately, reality is a thing, but I guess we'll see

482
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 4: whether we have to deal with that or not. Dave Dan,

483
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 4: editor of The American Prospect, thank you so much for

484
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 4: joining me on breaking points. So the Democratic freak out

485
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 4: over ZORONMM Donnie's victory in the Mayora primary continues. Who

486
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 4: better to talk to us about that than a long

487
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 4: time New York City resident, Although I guess expat now

488
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 4: in Jersey, you are telling me Davia smim.

489
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 8: Well, think I'm a refugee of the twenty twenty lockdowns

490
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:57,399
Speaker 8: I escaped over the border.

491
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,480
Speaker 4: Yes, it must been a harrowing journey. I'm I'm impressed

492
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 4: that you made it. Somebody must have, you know, smuggled

493
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 4: you into like a horse and drawn carriage and taken

494
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 4: you over the bridge.

495
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 8: Well there's not listen, it was As far as political

496
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 8: refugees go, it's not very common that you end up

497
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 8: getting a house for the price of your apartment when

498
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 8: you get to the other side, so that it was

499
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 8: a happy ending.

500
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 11: So there you go.

501
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 4: So So, Mom, Donnie, let's start with hickeen Jeffries. He's

502
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 4: the Democratic leader in the house. Mom, Donnie was on

503
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 4: a bunch of Sunday shows, as were a bunch of Democrats,

504
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 4: all kind of circling around each other. Here's Jeffries getting

505
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 4: asked whether he's going to endorse the Democratic nominee for mayor.

506
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 5: Let's start with the big news leader, Jeffries.

507
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 11: Out of your hometown. Mom, Donnie won a big victory.

508
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: Have you endorsed him yet? I have not.

509
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 13: We had a conversation on Wednesday morning where I congratulated

510
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 13: him on the campaign that he ran a campaign that

511
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 13: clearly was relentlessly focused on the high cost of living

512
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 13: in New York City and the economy.

513
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: He outworked, he out.

514
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 13: Communicated, and he outorganized the opposition, and that's clearly why

515
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 13: he was successful.

516
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: So what's holding you back from endorsing him right now?

517
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 13: Well, we don't really know each other. Well, our districts

518
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 13: don't overlap. Globalizing the Antifada, by way of example, is

519
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 13: not an acceptable phrasing. He's going to have to clarify

520
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 13: his position on that as he moves forward. With respect

521
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,479
Speaker 13: to the Jewish communities that I represent, I think our

522
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 13: nominee is going to have to convince folks that he

523
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 13: is prepared to aggressively address the rise in anti Semitism

524
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 13: in the City of New York, which has been an

525
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 13: unacceptable development.

526
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 4: Before we get into that, let's roll in Eric Swalwell

527
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 4: and then talk about some of this. So Swallwell, many

528
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 4: people do not know this. He actually ran for president

529
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 4: at one point, tied with Kirsten Jelibrand for the most

530
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 4: forgettable presidential candidacy in American history. Nonetheless, he did. Here

531
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,959
Speaker 4: he is on the Sunday Show sporting the new Democratic thing,

532
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 4: trying to look regular with a beard.

533
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 9: And frankly stylistically, and I'm not a socialist, and I

534
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 9: don't associate myself with what he has said about the

535
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 9: Jewish people.

536
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 14: I think the reference that I had read was global

537
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 14: intofada specifically, which has very serious meanings that are violent

538
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 14: and destructive.

539
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 15: Which he says, and I pressed him on this on

540
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 15: the show on Monday, but which he says are not

541
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 15: calls for violence because into fada is a much broader

542
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 15: term involving all kinds of uprisings and resistance and things

543
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 15: like that. So I just want to be clear about

544
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 15: how at least he defines it. But I do also

545
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 15: want to be clear that he said he does not

546
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 15: support violent into fada.

547
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 14: Is that there so, Brian, I didn't hear your exchange

548
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 14: with him, but if I was speaking to him directly,

549
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 14: I would simply say, that is not how the words

550
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 14: are received, and it doesn't matter what meaning you have

551
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 14: in your brain, it is not how the word is received.

552
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 14: And when you use a word like intofada to many

553
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 14: Jewish Americans and Jewish New Yorkers, that means you are

554
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 14: permissive for violence against you.

555
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 9: What specifically has Moum Donnie said that you think is

556
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 9: anti Semitic.

557
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 16: Pro Hamas Muhammas is a dangerous terrorist organization.

558
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 9: When did he praise I don't recall him ever praising.

559
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 16: There's several there's several videos, even during his days of

560
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 16: being a rap artist, of praising Hamas and other terrorist groups,

561
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 16: and so a little research you will be able to

562
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 16: find it.

563
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 17: Do you condemn that phrase globalize the atada?

564
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 18: That's not language that I use. The language that I

565
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 18: use and the language that I will continue to use

566
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 18: to lead the city is that which speaks clearly to

567
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 18: my intent, which is an intent grounded in a belief

568
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 18: in universal human rights, and ultimately that's what is the

569
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 18: foundation of so much of my politics, the belief that

570
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 18: freedom and justice and safety are things that to have

571
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 18: meaning have to be applied to all people, includes Israelis

572
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 18: and Palestinians's life.

573
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 15: But do you actually condemn it?

574
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 4: So Eric Swalwell that probably had the most egregious and

575
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 4: unsourced claim there where he said, you know, I had

576
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 4: I take issue with things that he has said about

577
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 4: the Jewish community, which he's never said anything negative about

578
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 4: the Jewish community ever, like nobody's even until Swalwell accused

579
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 4: him of that. He can't point anything. I reached out

580
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 4: that his office to see if they would point anything.

581
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,239
Speaker 4: They haven't gotten back to me yet. The Jilibrand one

582
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 4: I wanted to get your take on because if you

583
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 4: take the anti Semitism debate out of this, the language

584
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 4: that she was using there feels ripped out of like

585
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 4: twenty nineteen, twenty twenty cancel culture, so like it doesn't

586
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 4: matter what you think the word means. And what's so

587
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 4: crazy is that we're talking about an Arabic word which

588
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 4: means resistance. Like that's not there's no no debate. That's

589
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 4: what the word means. You can go go to Google

590
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 4: Translate and put in antifada. It means resistance. But according

591
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 4: to jail Brand, it doesn't matter what it means. What

592
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,479
Speaker 4: matters is how it makes people feel on the other end,

593
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 4: which to me is the very familiar cancel culture language.

594
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 4: And she even then says, we have the same thing

595
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 4: when it comes to black brown in LGBTQ communities. We understand.

596
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 4: So she's making the argument to the left like, look,

597
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 4: you guys have adopted this cancel culture rubric. This fits

598
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 4: into it, so you should cancel him. What I'm curious

599
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 4: about for people who've been critical of cancel culture, how

600
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 4: are they squaring this language policing around mom Donnie.

601
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 8: Well, Ryan, it's a good question. I've been asking that

602
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 8: question for about two years now. Across huge swats of

603
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 8: the political portion of Americans that are supporting Israel. Nobody

604
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 8: seems to have an issue squaring. It's just we will

605
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 8: just pretend that everything we stood for or five minutes

606
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 8: ago doesn't exist and move on. It's really it's I

607
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 8: think the worst aspect of wokeism and cancel culture and

608
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 8: even political correctness as it used to be called when

609
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 8: when I was a kid. Is that it's this this

610
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 8: thing where you try to shut down conversation based off

611
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,920
Speaker 8: a term that someone's using, and nobody it becomes an

612
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,720
Speaker 8: excuse to never grapple with the point that the person

613
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,439
Speaker 8: was making. It's like, you know, you just you used

614
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 8: the wrong term, and therefore everyone has to freak out

615
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,959
Speaker 8: about this. But what's really truly remarkable about this race

616
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,840
Speaker 8: to me is there's this it's like there's this denial

617
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 8: amongst the Democratic establishment of how bad the situation is

618
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,919
Speaker 8: for them, you know, like it's it's you know, going

619
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 8: back to twenty sixteen, where there was a civil war

620
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 8: in the Republican Party and a civil war in the

621
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 8: Democrat in the Democratic Party with the Trump campaign, in

622
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 8: the Bernie Sanders campaign, and it's almost like because you know,

623
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 8: the Republicans were they just surrender and Donald Trump took

624
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 8: over the whole party, the republic But the Democrats cheated

625
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 8: Bernie Sanders out of the nomination, and so they were

626
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 8: able to pretend that this didn't really happen. But now

627
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 8: after the humiliation that was, you know, running Joe Biden

628
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 8: and then Kamala Harris against Donald Trump and then losing

629
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 8: to the man who you said was a threat to

630
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 8: democracy and an insurrectionist and a Russian spy or all

631
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 8: these things, and then to come back and what the

632
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 8: option was Andrew Cuomo? Like that was the alternative that

633
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 8: you put up against this guy, the disgraced former senior

634
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 8: citizen murderer, Andrew Cuomo. And anyway, everybody's ignoring the obvious here,

635
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 8: which is that Mom Donnie ran a campaign about the

636
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 8: unaffordability of New York City. It's clearly the number one crisis.

637
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 8: And I certainly disagree with a lot of his solutions,

638
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 8: but at least he's talking about it. And then it's

639
00:35:57,520 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 8: like they're they're beating up on him at the debate

640
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 8: by saying, but you won't commit to going to visit Israel,

641
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 8: or we're having some debate about whether he favors a

642
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 8: two state solution or a democratic one state solution. I mean,

643
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 8: who cares. This is a mayoral race for New York City,

644
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 8: And so that even trying to make the major issue

645
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 8: whether he uttered the phrase intifada instead of using a

646
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,919
Speaker 8: different term, which I've never even heard him use the term,

647
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 8: And I just at this point, I totally tune this out.

648
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 8: I hear every single day that I'm a Hamas supporter,

649
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 8: and which is not true. I've never supported Hamas in

650
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 8: my life. I don't hate Jewish people. But this is,

651
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 8: as you know, in America, everyone who's critical of the

652
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 8: Israeli government gets this stuff labeled, and I just think

653
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 8: it's gotten to a point where it's meaningless. But even

654
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 8: if he had said the term, who cares? You know,

655
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 8: what's his plan for the city? And every time I've

656
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 8: ever heard him asked about Jewish people, which he's asked

657
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 8: about all the time, he always gives the right answer

658
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 8: and says he's critical of the power policies of the

659
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 8: Israeli government, but has nothing against Jewish people. So the

660
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 8: whole thing just seems it seems to be this like

661
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 8: impotent flailing around where they can't take on anything of substance.

662
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, And the irony to your point is that he

663
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 4: didn't actually say that. This scandal quote unquote scandal started

664
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 4: from a Bulwark interview where Tim Miller asked him, I mean,

665
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 4: what about a phrase like globalize the anti fada? Would

666
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 4: would you condemn that? And his answer was, well, I

667
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 4: don't use that phrase because I know that, you know,

668
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 4: it rings offensive to some people's ears. He's like, but

669
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 4: I'm not going to condemn it outright across the board,

670
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 4: because there is this demand that we condemn just basic

671
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 4: Arabic words, So I'm not He's like, I'm not going

672
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 4: to condemn an Arabic word because that would mean that

673
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 4: an Arabic speaker who was using the word intifada is

674
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 4: condemned by me when I don't know what they're saying.

675
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 4: And so it's it's too much because people hear it differently,

676
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 4: and so I don't use it. But people mean different things.

677
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 4: A lot of people mean it non violently, as you know,

678
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 4: like the first anti fat it was nonviolent. INTI fought

679
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 4: across into fund. It just means resistance. It's the word

680
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 4: for resistance. So therefore I'm not going to condemn an

681
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,439
Speaker 4: entire word that covers like many different things. So that's

682
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 4: the that's the context where this arose. And then you

683
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 4: have people like Eric Adams saying that he goes around

684
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 4: chanting it, or Eric Swalwall saying he says terrible things

685
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 4: about Jewish people. But real quickly, Hakeem Jefferies before we

686
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 4: move on the Democratic leader that we played there his

687
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 4: calling card for why he needed to rise up the ranks,

688
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 4: and his establishment supporters argued that this was a man

689
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 4: who was going to be an effective communicator for Democrats

690
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 4: like he was. He's the charismatic, articulate guy who's going

691
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 4: to deliver the message in a way that like Nancy

692
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 4: Pelosi and Harry Reid and Chuck Schumer and some of

693
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,879
Speaker 4: these stumbling older folks can't. He's the young, fresh voice.

694
00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 4: You're not a Democrat. I'm curious for your perspective when

695
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,359
Speaker 4: you saw him there on me on that Sunday show.

696
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,880
Speaker 4: Did you were youmoved? Did you feel like, Okay, this

697
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 4: is a communicator that is finally going to break through

698
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 4: to the American public.

699
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's just it really just pulls at your guts

700
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,839
Speaker 8: and your heart, and yeah, it's just all so ridiculous, man,

701
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 8: And you know it's I think this is one of

702
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 8: the things that because now kind of like the media

703
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 8: environment is so much less controlled than it used to

704
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 8: be and so much more decentralized, and we have shows

705
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 8: like this and lots of other ones, and it's just

706
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 8: like the overwhelming hypocrisy of all of this. It's almost

707
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 8: like they relied on a controlled environment to be able

708
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 8: to sell these type of arguments. Because the thing that

709
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 8: comes up to me, you know, with haw came Jeffreys.

710
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 8: You're like, okay, so you can't endorse this guy because

711
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 8: he's said some things that you think might be offensive

712
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 8: to the Jewish community, Like have you ever applied this

713
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 8: to the Muslim community? Have you ever? You know what

714
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 8: I'm saying, Like even if the word even the word intifada,

715
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 8: if you're gonna say, well, that could have violent connotations

716
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 8: with it, which is like it it certainly could, and

717
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,719
Speaker 8: some people certainly use it to me and violence as well,

718
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 8: But like, how about the term war? I mean, the

719
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 8: term war almost always comes with women and children dying,

720
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 8: But yet people can advocate for that, and we don't

721
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 8: put that term under a microscope and go you know

722
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 8: what I mean, And that people could advocate for flattening

723
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 8: Gaza and in the Democratic Party, you know, and like

724
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:31,839
Speaker 8: nobody is sitting here and going, well, hey, I got

725
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 8: Muslim constituents. I can't endorse this guy, which you know,

726
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 8: like if you were to take that position and then

727
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 8: also held the same thing for the term into fada,

728
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,479
Speaker 8: then maybe I could start listening to you. But again,

729
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 8: I think it's just it's so it's so naked and transparent.

730
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 8: It's like, no, you you're beholden to the war party,

731
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,399
Speaker 8: and so obviously you don't want to support this guy

732
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 8: who's outside of that, even though it's just the mayor

733
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 8: of New York City. It has absolutely nothing to do

734
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 8: with the war. And the funny what was so amazing,

735
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 8: so remarkable about this race to me is that while

736
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 8: all the other candidates in the primary debate and and

737
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 8: the moderators are all trying to get this guy for

738
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:13,240
Speaker 8: like not supporting Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state,

739
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 8: he insists it must be a democratic state, as if

740
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 8: that's unpopular. You know, It's like, now, somehow you're supposed

741
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 8: to convince people that, he goes, I support Israel as

742
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 8: a state with equal rights for everybody, and then someone's

743
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 8: supposed to that's Adolf Hitler talk right there, like that's evil.

744
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 8: Equal rights for everybody is what Nazis say or something.

745
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 8: But while the bottom line in reality is that the

746
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 8: war is unpopular, and Cuomo and everybody else is insisting

747
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 8: that they carry this baggage they carry this unpopular baggage

748
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 8: which mom Donnie gets to be free of and say,

749
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 8: oh yeah, no, I'm not for that war. Anyway, Let's

750
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 8: talk about why Chicken over races twelve dollars instead of

751
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 8: seven dollars. It's like they just hand him the win.

752
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 8: It's fascinating.

753
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 4: Over the weekend at the Glassonberry Festival, which is apparently

754
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 4: this gigantic cultural event over in England. Uh, the the

755
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 4: monitors over at BBC were on guard, uh to make

756
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,880
Speaker 4: sure that uh, what's what's the Irish band that they

757
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 4: are that they're all scared of the uh the one

758
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:23,799
Speaker 4: that says free Palestine. Uh, yeah, yeah they were. They're

759
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 4: they're basically they accused them of like waving a Hesbala

760
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 4: flag at a previous route, so they're they're like, we're

761
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 4: going to make sure that these mixed do not say

762
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 4: the words, you know, free Palestine. They're on guard. They

763
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,319
Speaker 4: kept them from performing live over the airwaves, said yeah,

764
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 4: you have to get them on demand later, and then

765
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 4: they just let their guard down for the top performance

766
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 4: by about Villain. So he comes on stage. Let's roll

767
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,240
Speaker 4: a little bit of what the centers missed.

768
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 19: Free, free, Free, Free, fru Hi have you heard this

769
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 19: one though?

770
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 4: Bef beft to the eye, the iff to the id

771
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 4: iff to the.

772
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: I d FtF to the I d F stef to

773
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: the I d F.

774
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 4: Kind of remarkable visual because you've got the BBC logo

775
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 4: up in the corner there, and you've got the like

776
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 4: the well produced you know, cameras that are rolling over

777
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 4: the crowd, while you also hear the crowd chanting along

778
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,759
Speaker 4: with him. Uh, which has led to a predictable uh

779
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,320
Speaker 4: out meltdown in England and around the world. In response

780
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 4: to it, Villain himself came out with a statement which

781
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 4: said he's where he said. I said what I said.

782
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:43,919
Speaker 4: That was a statement, and then he had a longer

783
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 4: statement about how political change is important and you got

784
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,439
Speaker 4: to speak from whatever blackborm notes. So not not backing down.

785
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 13: Uh.

786
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 4: They the English British are saying they're even going to

787
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 4: like open an investigation into whether charges ought to be brought. Dave,

788
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 4: did you did you happen to watch the glass Very

789
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 4: Festival in real time? Is this in a cultural event

790
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 4: you're tuned into or did you only pick up on

791
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 4: it after the meltdown?

792
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 1: No?

793
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 8: I have I've never heard of this I've never heard

794
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 8: of the event. I've never heard of the band or

795
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 8: this guy, which is it's funny because that's I think

796
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 8: the case counting.

797
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 4: I was trying to think of, yes, yes, I think, yes,

798
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 4: that's right.

799
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 8: I'm sure a huge portion of the Breaking Points audience,

800
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,120
Speaker 8: but so nobody, I think essentially of the people who

801
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 8: are outraged about this actually cared about it or knew

802
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 8: about it. But again, it is it's, you know, I've done,

803
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,720
Speaker 8: like I've done so many of these debates on Israel

804
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 8: Palestine over the last couple of years, and so many

805
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 8: like shows about it, and it's, like we were saying earlier,

806
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 8: it's the double standards and the hypocrisy are just like,

807
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 8: what's so overwhelming, you know, it's it's the idea that

808
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 8: after all of these months of just women and children

809
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 8: being massacred in the most ruthless ways, that we're supposed

810
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:06,240
Speaker 8: to be outraged about like a chant at a concert,

811
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 8: and that this is you know, this is really the

812
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 8: threat of our time, not what the IDF is doing

813
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 8: to Gaza. Is just it's very bizarre, and so yeah,

814
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 8: looks it's fairly predictable that this was a provocative thing

815
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 8: to do and I think the thing that should be

816
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 8: a wake up call is just as you point it out,

817
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 8: it's such a huge crowd and they're all in agreement,

818
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,800
Speaker 8: and I think that's the thing that is is threatening

819
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 8: to people who are our supporters of Israel, but should

820
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 8: be something that everybody should take a look at, like, hey,

821
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 8: look what's going on here, and this is however you

822
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,680
Speaker 8: feel about it, this is going to be one of

823
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 8: the costs that this that comes with the policy of

824
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 8: destroying Gaza. And I have been I still just cannot

825
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 8: believe twenty two months later, whatever we are since October seventh,

826
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 8: that the pro Israel crowd doesn't wake up to this,

827
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 8: that it's like, hey, look, yes, the poor Palestinians cannot

828
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 8: stop you. And as we were just discussing, it seems

829
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 8: like for whatever reason, the Americans, including the Trump administration,

830
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 8: are unable or unwilling to put pressure on Israel to

831
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 8: stop them. America really is the only the Americans are

832
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 8: the only ones who could stop the Israelis, and we're not.

833
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,320
Speaker 8: We're facilitating it, and the poor Palestinians are helpless. However,

834
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,320
Speaker 8: you are turning the entire world against you, and for

835
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 8: a group of people. I say this as a Jewish

836
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:41,240
Speaker 8: you know person myself. I'm well aware of the culture

837
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 8: of kind of paranoia within Jewish Americans at least, and

838
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 8: I think maybe maybe that's understandable given the history of

839
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 8: Jews have been treated in the world. But if you

840
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 8: have that, if you have this concern that there's this

841
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 8: rise in anti Semitism, there's this rise in jew hatred,

842
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 8: and oh, my god, ought a next authoritarian Hitler esque

843
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 8: figure could be right around the corner, then, my God,

844
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 8: read the room. I mean, then advocate to end this

845
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,320
Speaker 8: policy because it is coming with this you're listen. Turns

846
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 8: out you can only slaughter so many and women and

847
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 8: children before you make a lot of people hate you.

848
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,720
Speaker 8: And the way that that manifests itself is not always

849
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 8: gonna be, you know, a man in a suit and

850
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 8: tie saying, excuse me, good sir, I disagree with this

851
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 8: policy decision of slaughtering women and children. It's gonna look

852
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 8: like this quite often, and if you don't want to

853
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,720
Speaker 8: see more of it, stop slaughtering women and children.

854
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 4: That's it's a really interesting point about the crowd response,

855
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 4: because you're right, they can prosecute Bob Villain. Maybe maybe

856
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 4: they can find some laws that he broke in in England,

857
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 4: you can end his career. You could have prevented him

858
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 4: from even ever going on stage. You know what, we've

859
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 4: looked into your past, you said some things. We're nervous

860
00:47:57,600 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 4: about what you're gonna say. We're not gonna put you

861
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 4: up on stage. What you can't do if you're an

862
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 4: Israeli defender is influence how that crowd is going to respond, because, yeah,

863
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 4: if Bob Villain goes up there and chance death, death,

864
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 4: the idf and the crowd looks at him like he's

865
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 4: a maniac. Then he looks he looks crazy, and he

866
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 4: looks like a he looks like a fool, and you know,

867
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 4: he moves on probably and you know, moves on to

868
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 4: some other song where you know, he had that one

869
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 4: reason attacking British people who want their country back, and

870
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 4: he moves on to that one instead. But that wasn't

871
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,760
Speaker 4: the response. You've got hundreds of thousands of people screaming

872
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,240
Speaker 4: along with him, and yeah, that if you're a defender

873
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 4: of Israel, that really has to be the problem. And

874
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 4: it's been interesting to watch the evolution around the arguing

875
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 4: around the language. You know, We started this in October

876
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 4: of twenty twenty three with people censuring Rashida Talib on

877
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 4: this floor of the House of Representatives for using the

878
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 4: phrase from the river to the sea in a video

879
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 4: that she had posted. And the argument was, if you

880
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 4: believe in you know one you know, one person, one vote,

881
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 4: you know, everyone with from the river to the sea

882
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 4: is treated with equal rights, that that is a rejection

883
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 4: of the Jewish supremacist nature of Israel, and the people

884
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 4: who then will be in control will slaughter everybody, like

885
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:31,720
Speaker 4: who's Jewish from the river to the sea. So pretty

886
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 4: horrifying assumptions to make about people. But that like, that's

887
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 4: the argument for why that is. And that phrases an

888
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 4: attack on civilians globalize The anti Fada people say, well,

889
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 4: the second Antifada included bus bombings, cafe bombings, So if

890
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 4: you say the word antifada, you're you're supporting killing people

891
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 4: in civilians, killing civilians in cafes. Now it almost feels

892
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 4: like Bob Villain took that critis I'm in. I was like, Okay,

893
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:05,959
Speaker 4: I'm going to tell you exactly who I'm talking about.

894
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 4: The IDF, the members of the military who just the

895
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 4: day before had been exposed as shooting directly at civilians

896
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 4: who were getting aid at a gas a Humanitarian Foundation

897
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 4: distribution site, which hasn't stopped people from saying that he

898
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 4: actually is calling for the death of all Jewish people

899
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 4: or civilians. But I thought, what did you make of

900
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 4: the fact that he zeroed in directly on the military

901
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 4: with that chant?

902
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 8: Yeah, well, I think it It was probably a smart decision.

903
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 8: I mean, I guess I don't know how much thought

904
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 8: was actually put into it.

905
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 4: At anti ranch up because he's like death, I'm not

906
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 4: leaving any room for ambiguity in what I'm calling for

907
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 4: on the death on the violence side, but leaving any

908
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 4: room for ambiguity on the target side, which is the IDEAF.

909
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,280
Speaker 8: That's right, And and it's so it's it's funny because

910
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 8: it's like you watch all of these people, the Israel

911
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,320
Speaker 8: defenders kind of just constantly, as we have for the

912
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 8: last couple of years, just twisting themselves into all types

913
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 8: of pretzels to to somehow, you know, like try to

914
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 8: logically work out that it is somehow it is way

915
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 8: over the line to call for death death to the

916
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:32,240
Speaker 8: IDF yet calling because somehow that's anti Semitic. Yet calling

917
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 8: for the destruction of Hamas is not anti Palestinian. You see,

918
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 8: there's a major difference there. And sure, if we if

919
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 8: as we are actually enacting the policy supposedly of destroying Hamas,

920
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 8: the innocent Palestinian Palestinians are being slaughtered in the process,

921
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 8: well that's okay, because we're really just targeting Hamas. Even

922
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 8: though we're shooting into crowds of people trying to get

923
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 8: food or destroying the entire gaza strip, that's still targeting Hamas. However,

924
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 8: just hollering death to the IDF is an attack against

925
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 8: all Israelis or all Jews broadly speaking. I mean, if

926
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 8: you can make both of those thoughts, you know, not

927
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 8: contradict each other somehow, good luck to you. But it

928
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 8: has been you know, Look, when you engage in a

929
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:22,320
Speaker 8: war in the manner that the IDEF has over the

930
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 8: last couple of years, I'm sorry that you're you're you're

931
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 8: indistinguishable from a terrorist organization. And so if you're allowed

932
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 8: to chant death to terrorist organizations, which seems to be

933
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 8: the justification for this entire destruction of Gaza, then I

934
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 8: don't see why you shouldn't be allowed to do it

935
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:43,560
Speaker 8: the other way. And obviously this is gonna you know,

936
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 8: this is gonna upset a lot of people. It's not

937
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 8: the way I would you know, communicate the issue. But again,

938
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 8: you know, there's something there's something like profoundly Freudian about

939
00:52:57,600 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 8: what you were saying there where it's like, well, what

940
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 8: if you know this this kind of like foundational Freudian

941
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,960
Speaker 8: insight that if you repress, you know, you repress certain urges,

942
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 8: they re emerge in an uglier way. And so, I,

943
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 8: you know, I've had this thought a lot over the

944
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 8: last few years. I remember when there was that major

945
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:19,320
Speaker 8: campaign to counsel my buddy Joe Rogan, and I remember

946
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 8: just even thinking at the time, you know, when they

947
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 8: were getting the artists to like boycott Spotify because he

948
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 8: was having you know, like you know, anti lockdown scientists

949
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 8: on his show or something like that. And you go, so,

950
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 8: what do you guys think, like Brian Stelter on CNN

951
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:39,720
Speaker 8: every day advocating that Joe Rogan get you know, get censored.

952
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 8: What do you think they're all coming back to CNA

953
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 8: you think is fifteen million subscribers or what they're just

954
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 8: gonna they're gonna go, well, Rogan's gone. I guess we

955
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 8: got to tune into Don Lemon and Brian Stelter tonight.

956
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:52,839
Speaker 8: I mean, come on, they're just And it's funny because

957
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 8: we kind of we ran this experiment of mass censorship

958
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 8: on social media for years and did that solve any

959
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 8: of those problems? Is there is there no more right

960
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,239
Speaker 8: wing extremism now or no, it's it's worse than it's

961
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:09,279
Speaker 8: ever been, or from their perspective, So again, it's like, yeah,

962
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 8: look when you got this many people, it's like governments

963
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 8: are by their nature their instruments of force, and all

964
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 8: they can do is repress this stuff. But that doesn't

965
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,600
Speaker 8: that doesn't mean it goes away. In fact, that's probably

966
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 8: going to mean that it comes it re emerges in

967
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:25,319
Speaker 8: a much more dangerous, uglier form.

968
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I'm curious as somebody who's been engaged in this,

969
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:33,760
Speaker 4: this dialogue and this debate, you know from the very beginning,

970
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 4: what you know, how you've seen it change over the

971
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 4: last you know, year plus, Like, have you seen are

972
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:45,560
Speaker 4: people coming up to you who are like who have

973
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 4: changed their minds? That Dave, You're actually right, I wish

974
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:50,359
Speaker 4: I had seen this earlier. Or are you've seen people

975
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 4: who like, after a year and a half of this,

976
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 4: I think you're you're crazy and you're obsessed, and you're

977
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:58,319
Speaker 4: you've lost your mind about this. Like what you've got

978
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 4: your because you've been in so many different kind of

979
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:02,959
Speaker 4: debates on this, on this issue, You've got your finger

980
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 4: on the kind of pulse I think in a way

981
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 4: that a lot of people don't. So what are what

982
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 4: are you sensing about, like how public attitudes have change?

983
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:13,040
Speaker 4: Because you're right, like, you can censor all you want,

984
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:14,840
Speaker 4: but if a chant like that is going to resonate

985
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:17,879
Speaker 4: with hundreds of thousands of normies at a concert, that's

986
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 4: your problem, not the chance.

987
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:24,440
Speaker 8: Yeah. Yeah, well, so you know the it's like all

988
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 8: it's always been the case with every every war of

989
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 8: my lifetime that I can remember, is that it's always

990
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 8: like when the war first launches, the war propagandists are

991
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 8: at their strongest, and then as time goes on, their

992
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 8: case just gets weaker and weaker and weaker, and the

993
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:48,319
Speaker 8: justification changes and the you know, the things they were

994
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 8: saying yesterday aren't even the arguments today. You know, there

995
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 8: was if you remember at the very beginning of this war,

996
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 8: whenever you would you would debate that somebody would always

997
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 8: say something like, uh, you know, we can't trust the

998
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 8: guys a health ministry. These numbers have been inflated. It's

999
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 8: not that many those talking points are pretty much all

1000
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 8: gone now because it's the deaf count, as everybody acknowledges,

1001
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 8: is way higher than what they were disputing back then.

1002
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:17,680
Speaker 8: In terms of like the reaction from people there, there's

1003
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 8: no question that there are you know, Israel is a

1004
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 8: particularly interesting issue, and it is one that is so emotional,

1005
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 8: like there's so much emotion around it, and there are

1006
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:34,240
Speaker 8: the people who are just dug in and there's certainly

1007
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 8: I've I've lost some fans and I've lost I don't

1008
00:56:40,200 --> 00:56:41,720
Speaker 8: even know what to say. It's not even like people

1009
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 8: necessarily that I'm friends with, but people say like in

1010
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 8: the you know, in the commentator sphere, who would have

1011
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,320
Speaker 8: had just nothing but great things to say about me,

1012
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:55,360
Speaker 8: you know, like a if you had asked Dave Rubin

1013
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 8: his thoughts about me two years ago, he would have

1014
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 8: just told you what a bright guy I was, and

1015
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:03,799
Speaker 8: you know whatever, it would have been nothing but compliments.

1016
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:06,880
Speaker 8: Now it'll be he's a moron, he doesn't know what

1017
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 8: he's talking about so like, I've gotten some of that,

1018
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 8: but overwhelmingly the response from the people has been like,

1019
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 8: just totally on the side of that, this is just

1020
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 8: insane and it's indefensible. And I've heard from so many people.

1021
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 8: I mean, I've gotten so many messages over the last

1022
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 8: couple of years of people who were like, I was

1023
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 8: a lifelong supporter of Israel, even a couple months into

1024
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 8: the war, I thought you were crazy, and I liked

1025
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:36,439
Speaker 8: your takes on other things, but couldn't get on board

1026
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:38,160
Speaker 8: with this, And now they just look back at it

1027
00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 8: and go, oh, yeah, this is just totally indefensible. And

1028
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 8: there's many different It's like, I don't think I've ever

1029
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 8: seen any war or which I don't like using the

1030
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 8: word war because it's really not a war. It's just

1031
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 8: the destruction of a captive people. But you know, the

1032
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 8: term genocide is much closer than the term war to

1033
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 8: what you're seeing over there from So it's the most

1034
00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:06,800
Speaker 8: like the defense of the policy is incoherent at every level,

1035
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 8: at every and then the most basic one that I

1036
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:13,160
Speaker 8: think resonates the most with Trump supporters is that however

1037
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 8: you feel about it, even if you were on Israel's

1038
00:58:16,000 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 8: side of the conflict and say, you know whatever, after

1039
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,040
Speaker 8: October seventh, you have to respond and they have a

1040
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 8: right to defend themselves or whatever the talking point is.

1041
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 8: It's so clearly not in America's interest for this thing

1042
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 8: to continue. It does nothing except in gender more hatred

1043
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,439
Speaker 8: against us, and it's it's a destabilizing force. No matter

1044
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:36,920
Speaker 8: how you feel about it. People over here are just

1045
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 8: pitted against each other over a conflict thousands of miles

1046
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 8: away that has nothing to do with America. It has

1047
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:48,080
Speaker 8: nothing to do you know, Hamas is probably Hamas. October

1048
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 8: seventh is the by far the biggest you know, violent

1049
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:55,640
Speaker 8: achievement of the of the history of Hamas since it started.

1050
00:58:55,960 --> 00:59:00,080
Speaker 8: They probably are no threat to repeat October seventh. There

1051
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 8: are certainly no threat to the United States of America.

1052
00:59:02,920 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 8: It is just too goofy. I mean, if you know,

1053
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:06,960
Speaker 8: somehow they'll try to make it out that Iran is

1054
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 8: a threat to us, which is still pretty goofy. But Hamas,

1055
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 8: I mean, come on, this is just not so you

1056
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 8: just you can't defend the idea that America should be

1057
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 8: funding something that is against America's interest. And so to me,

1058
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 8: I've seen you know, I think it's been pretty overwhelming that,

1059
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 8: like the people are opposed to this policy, and then

1060
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:31,680
Speaker 8: and and so I've you know, I kind of have

1061
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 8: had the benefit it. Like the secret Ryan that I'll

1062
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 8: share with you here is that I'm actually not that

1063
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 8: good of a debater. I'm not the most brilliant guy

1064
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 8: in the world. I'm not reinventing the world. Well I'm not.

1065
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 8: I'm not. As Douglas Murray thought, this was a real gotcha,

1066
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 8: I'm not the expert. There are people who know this

1067
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 8: conflict in the history way better than I do. Norman

1068
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 8: Finkelstein can recite every un resolution in his sleep. I

1069
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 8: can't do that, you know what I mean. But I

1070
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:00,320
Speaker 8: know enough, and I just take the side that is

1071
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 8: the obvious correct side. And then that makes it very

1072
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 8: difficult to debate against because the truth has this ring

1073
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 8: to it, you know, when people say something rings true.

1074
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 8: Truth just has like a power that when you're in

1075
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 8: an argument, it's very easy to win it when you

1076
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:18,520
Speaker 8: have the truth on your side. And so my experience

1077
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 8: has been that this has been with the overwhelming majority

1078
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 8: of people just calling out the insanity of this policy

1079
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:25,520
Speaker 8: has been resonating.

1080
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 4: And I think the podcast and YouTube format has also

1081
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 4: changed it because if you're debating somebody for three minutes

1082
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:38,480
Speaker 4: on cable news, Douglas Murray talking point and a Dave

1083
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 4: Smith talking point will both ring true, like they're both

1084
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 4: you can each go back and forth for a couple

1085
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:47,360
Speaker 4: of minutes and sound reasonable to people who aren't steeped

1086
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:49,640
Speaker 4: in in the issue. And that's the point you're trying

1087
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 4: to reach build aren't steeped in it. But you have

1088
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 4: to go beyond three minutes. You know, once you're in

1089
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 4: the minute thirty and minute sixty and minute ninety, then

1090
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:02,640
Speaker 4: that's when the truth starts to ring through, and and

1091
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:06,680
Speaker 4: the side that is incoherent just completely just kind of

1092
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 4: crumbles in the face of those those facts. So I

1093
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 4: think that's probably played a role too, And you're willing

1094
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:15,000
Speaker 4: to like engage long form makes it so that yeah,

1095
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:17,439
Speaker 4: over over the space of the debate, you're like, Okay,

1096
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:18,919
Speaker 4: wait a minute, none of this is making sense.

1097
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 8: Yes, that's right, long long form and you know not

1098
01:01:25,440 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 8: a less controlled environment is always like that. That is

1099
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 8: always a benefit to the truth teller. So whoever's telling

1100
01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:34,440
Speaker 8: the truth, that's always going to help more and more.

1101
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 8: And I think you're totally right. I mean it's it's

1102
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:39,200
Speaker 8: when you really think about it, it's like the cable

1103
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 8: news in general is such a ridiculous format. Yeah, I

1104
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:45,480
Speaker 8: mean it's it's crazy that it ever existed.

1105
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 4: And you know, you go and do this Earth is

1106
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:52,240
Speaker 4: flat on there and sound reasonable for you know, two exchanges.

1107
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:54,960
Speaker 8: There's I mean, I'm not even exaggerating. I've been on

1108
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:56,919
Speaker 8: you know, I used to do these shows. I don't

1109
01:01:56,960 --> 01:01:59,280
Speaker 8: really do them anymore because it's like there's no point

1110
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 8: and there's just the audiences on these internet shows, and

1111
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 8: so what's the point in going back and doing cable news.

1112
01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 8: I get I get asked all the time to do

1113
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 8: you know, like Fox News shows, but I'm just like,

1114
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:13,240
Speaker 8: it's not worth my time. But I've done a time.

1115
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 8: But they would do this thing where it'd be like

1116
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 8: it'd be literally three people on a panel, there's a

1117
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 8: ten minute segment. The host of the show does you know,

1118
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:26,240
Speaker 8: two minutes up front, So now there's eight minutes to

1119
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 8: be divided amongst three people to discuss the most important

1120
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 8: topic in the world. And she's like this is the same,

1121
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:35,960
Speaker 8: like would you and so then it is you know, like, look,

1122
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 8: it's a good exercise. I think sometimes to like, oh,

1123
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:40,920
Speaker 8: you're like, can I trim the fat and cut my

1124
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 8: argument down to the most compelling two minute case? But yeah,

1125
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 8: almost anybody can can even propagandas can sound compelling for

1126
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 8: ninety seconds or two minutes. But it's not till you

1127
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 8: start being able to push back on them and pull

1128
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 8: the thread of all of their claims to kind of

1129
01:02:56,720 --> 01:03:00,959
Speaker 8: expose how you know, It's like in my cousin Vinny

1130
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:02,919
Speaker 8: when he's you know, he says, you turn the card

1131
01:03:03,000 --> 01:03:05,400
Speaker 8: to the side, and then you see how it's paper thin.

1132
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 8: You know, It's like you have to be able to

1133
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:09,200
Speaker 8: do that. But now, and this is one of the

1134
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 8: things that I'm really encouraged by. I just think it's

1135
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 8: so amazing that we're living through this time. The new

1136
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:19,600
Speaker 8: norm now is long form shows, and that the politicians

1137
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 8: even have to be able to go there. You saw

1138
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 8: just Bernie Sanders going on Joe Rogan's show the other day,

1139
01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:27,040
Speaker 8: and then of course Donald Trump doing all the show

1140
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 8: is to help get his second term. That's the new

1141
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 8: that's the new standard now. And I think that one

1142
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 8: of the things that you know, people have seen with

1143
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:38,600
Speaker 8: a lot of this stuff, I think probably the biggest,

1144
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:41,480
Speaker 8: biggest example of it was Ted Cruz with Tucker Carlson

1145
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:44,360
Speaker 8: the other day. Is that you see that, like so

1146
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 8: much of this war propaganda, they like they fall apart

1147
01:03:48,680 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 8: with the like the most basic pushback, the most basic

1148
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 8: just like kind of like just just one for one

1149
01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:57,360
Speaker 8: follow up question and their entire case falls apart. And

1150
01:03:57,560 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 8: so that is that is very encouraging to me, and

1151
01:04:02,000 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 8: I think that's that's our best hope moving forward.

1152
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:07,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've had the same experience. I did cable for

1153
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 4: many years, and my colleagues or my wife would say, like,

1154
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 4: don't you have like see an n or MSNBC in

1155
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:17,800
Speaker 4: like two minutes, don't you to prepare for this? Like no,

1156
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 4: they're going to give me thirty five seconds to talk,

1157
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:23,880
Speaker 4: Like I have thirty five seconds off the top, like

1158
01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 4: on whatever issue you've got, I've got thirty seconds on that.

1159
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 4: And that's not a value to the viewer who wants

1160
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:34,480
Speaker 4: my surface thirty seconds. But that's what they do, and

1161
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 4: then they just do it every hour on repeat. The

1162
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:44,680
Speaker 4: Israeli newspaper, Howarettes released a startling investigation over the weekend

1163
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:46,880
Speaker 4: or like gues startling to people who didn't believe the

1164
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:51,000
Speaker 4: many Palestinian eyewitnesses and medics and doctors who had been

1165
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:53,439
Speaker 4: making the same case. But what the howrets we could

1166
01:04:53,440 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 4: put this element up on the screen investigation revealed is

1167
01:04:57,280 --> 01:04:58,960
Speaker 4: that what we have been seeing and what we have

1168
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:02,440
Speaker 4: been hearing about is is the result of a policy

1169
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:07,040
Speaker 4: coming from at least some commanders in the field to

1170
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:13,760
Speaker 4: deliberately shoot at shoot toward starving Palestinian aid seekers at

1171
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 4: the at and around the aid centers related to the

1172
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:21,680
Speaker 4: Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. Amir Tibon is a columnist at how

1173
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 4: Reetz were still joined as well by Dave Smith. Late

1174
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:29,520
Speaker 4: later in this interview, we're going to talk about Amir's

1175
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:32,520
Speaker 4: latest column on Netan, Yahoo and Trump. We want to

1176
01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:36,400
Speaker 4: start here with this how a Retz investigation, Amir, How

1177
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:40,800
Speaker 4: has it been resonating in Israel? This this feels like

1178
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 4: a piece that broke through in a way that some

1179
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:46,880
Speaker 4: had not in the past. But maybe that's just my

1180
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 4: hope kind of give you know, coloring my analysis.

1181
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:56,240
Speaker 19: So, first of all, this is an investigation by three

1182
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 19: of my colleagues, and Nil Sassoon and iv Kobovich and

1183
01:05:59,720 --> 01:06:02,400
Speaker 19: Barb and I want to give them the due credit

1184
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 19: for the hard work that they did here, and it's

1185
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 19: mostly based on interviews with soldiers, with people on the

1186
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:14,400
Speaker 19: ground who are eyewitnesses to the very disturbing reality that

1187
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:18,280
Speaker 19: has developed around the question of the aid distribution in

1188
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:21,919
Speaker 19: Gaza and all these incidents where you have people being

1189
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:26,720
Speaker 19: killed from gunfire. Now, the investigation doesn't say that this

1190
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:30,760
Speaker 19: is exclusively the idea, if it doesn't rule out the

1191
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:34,200
Speaker 19: claim that we've heard from the Israeli side that also

1192
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:37,280
Speaker 19: Hamas has targeted people near the aid centers or some

1193
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 19: of the workers, but it definitely includes testimonies from soldiers

1194
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 19: who say that they were given orders to fire live ammunition,

1195
01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:49,280
Speaker 19: let's say, at least in the vicinity of the aid

1196
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 19: distribution centers. And I really think it's just worth reading.

1197
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:55,920
Speaker 19: It's a very very strong article. There's been strong pushback

1198
01:06:55,960 --> 01:07:00,120
Speaker 19: against it. But what's interesting to note is that at

1199
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:04,800
Speaker 19: least I've seen one reporter, one military reporter for I

1200
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:07,880
Speaker 19: think it's Channel fourteen, which is a very right leaning

1201
01:07:08,040 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 19: Prona Tanyao media outlet, who basically after denouncing the investigation

1202
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:17,080
Speaker 19: in Haretz, said that some of the orders and some

1203
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 19: of the rules of engagement, you know, when soldiers can

1204
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:25,640
Speaker 19: open fire around the distribution centers was changed after the

1205
01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:29,600
Speaker 19: publication of the story, which, you know, it's a weird

1206
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:32,440
Speaker 19: way to try to debunk something if you're saying it's

1207
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 19: not true. But by the way it has led to

1208
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:37,840
Speaker 19: changes in the policy, and from my point of view,

1209
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:43,440
Speaker 19: I think what it really shows is that from speaking

1210
01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 19: of from an Israeli perspective.

1211
01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:49,000
Speaker 1: This is a war that has exhausted itself.

1212
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:53,360
Speaker 19: I don't understand as somebody who you know, Ryan knows

1213
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:57,720
Speaker 19: this lived on the border with Gaza before October seven,

1214
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:00,160
Speaker 19: still plans to go back and live in the of

1215
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:03,320
Speaker 19: Israel when the war is over. I don't see how

1216
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:08,480
Speaker 19: this actually makes my family safer. There are other elements

1217
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:10,640
Speaker 19: of this war, and war is always a terrible thing,

1218
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 19: but there are elements of it where I would read

1219
01:08:13,600 --> 01:08:15,720
Speaker 19: a story and say, you know, this is terrible, but

1220
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:19,280
Speaker 19: we were attacked, and this is war, and this is difficult.

1221
01:08:19,800 --> 01:08:21,680
Speaker 1: I think we're at a point today where it.

1222
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:26,200
Speaker 19: Seems like the war really has exhausted itself, and these

1223
01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 19: incidents are one glaring example of it.

1224
01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:32,800
Speaker 8: If you will do you do you have a sense

1225
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:37,320
Speaker 8: of the motivation behind giving orders like this. It's one

1226
01:08:37,360 --> 01:08:41,160
Speaker 8: of the things that's really dumbfounding to me is you know,

1227
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 8: you have so much pushback internationally on the you know,

1228
01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 8: the destruction of Gaza and the treatment of the Palestinian people.

1229
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:53,280
Speaker 8: What is the benefit of ordering IDF soldiers to shoot

1230
01:08:53,320 --> 01:08:56,759
Speaker 8: live ammunition into a group of civilians looking for food.

1231
01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:01,120
Speaker 19: So, first of all, I I want to be very,

1232
01:09:01,360 --> 01:09:04,800
Speaker 19: very kind of cautious here with the wording, because I

1233
01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:09,080
Speaker 19: think what we know is that soldiers were given orders

1234
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 19: to fire, let's say in that direction. We don't necessarily

1235
01:09:13,160 --> 01:09:15,840
Speaker 19: know that they were told go and kill people. But

1236
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:18,840
Speaker 19: the thing he really is that we are at a

1237
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:22,759
Speaker 19: point where you have this war of a tuition in Gaza.

1238
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:26,240
Speaker 19: From the Israeli perspective, we are losing a lot of

1239
01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:28,960
Speaker 19: soldiers there, and a lot of them, you know, young

1240
01:09:29,120 --> 01:09:33,160
Speaker 19: people who have been in this endless war situation since

1241
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 19: they joined the army.

1242
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:36,120
Speaker 1: Really their life is in danger.

1243
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 19: And when you are in a situation like that, a

1244
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:42,880
Speaker 19: lot of times you're saying, Okay, I'm going to take

1245
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 19: extra precaution as a commander to try to protect my soldiers.

1246
01:09:48,240 --> 01:09:51,759
Speaker 19: And if the soldiers are in this kind of stalemate situation,

1247
01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:56,240
Speaker 19: there is very little movement. They see danger everywhere because

1248
01:09:56,439 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 19: Gaza today is basically tons of rubble and destroyed building

1249
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:05,400
Speaker 19: and they are being faced with you know, explosives and

1250
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:10,960
Speaker 19: the land mines and RPGs and things like that. So

1251
01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:13,360
Speaker 19: there's this heightened sense of danger and that a lot

1252
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:17,200
Speaker 19: of times will lead to decisions that you know, for

1253
01:10:17,439 --> 01:10:20,639
Speaker 19: me as a civilian, I look at it and I say,

1254
01:10:20,880 --> 01:10:25,080
Speaker 19: this is not leading us anywhere. But for a soldier

1255
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:28,519
Speaker 19: in the field on the ground, you're like, I guess

1256
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:33,680
Speaker 19: much more, you know, considering first of all your survival

1257
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:35,560
Speaker 19: and so and I think this is one of the

1258
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:38,360
Speaker 19: issues I tend here that when I look at it,

1259
01:10:38,520 --> 01:10:41,560
Speaker 19: I say, okay, this is first of all terrible, and

1260
01:10:41,720 --> 01:10:44,280
Speaker 19: second of all, I take it up to the government,

1261
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:47,479
Speaker 19: not to the soldiers on the ground. Again this is

1262
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:49,840
Speaker 19: from my perspective. I take it to the government and say,

1263
01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:52,679
Speaker 19: what are you sending these people to do at this point?

1264
01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 19: What is this achieving for us for Israel as a country.

1265
01:10:58,240 --> 01:11:02,560
Speaker 4: The tank shells to me at a layer of complexity,

1266
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:07,080
Speaker 4: not complexity like depravity to the order, because I think

1267
01:11:08,520 --> 01:11:11,840
Speaker 4: no aid organization thinks that using live ammunition and firing

1268
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:15,040
Speaker 4: warning shots at AID seekers is like an effective way

1269
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:17,760
Speaker 4: to do AID distribution, like you've never heard of World

1270
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:22,280
Speaker 4: Central Kitchen saying no, we apologize for the thirty seven,

1271
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:25,000
Speaker 4: you know, people that were killed at the World Central Kitchen.

1272
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:28,040
Speaker 4: We were firing warning shots and it turned out that

1273
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:31,600
Speaker 4: we killed thirty seven and wounded seventy two like that.

1274
01:11:32,040 --> 01:11:35,080
Speaker 4: Never in the history of aid distribution has that happened.

1275
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:39,799
Speaker 4: But even setting aside the live ammunition warning shots, firing

1276
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:47,400
Speaker 4: shells towards civilian crowds is guaranteed to lead to I mean,

1277
01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:50,559
Speaker 4: unless there's some miraculous situation where it lands nowhere near

1278
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:53,840
Speaker 4: they fired, it's guaranteed to lead to casualties at least,

1279
01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:56,479
Speaker 4: you know, significant amounts of people wounded. But I take

1280
01:11:56,520 --> 01:11:59,840
Speaker 4: your point that I imagine the soldiers were saying, who cares,

1281
01:12:00,280 --> 01:12:03,439
Speaker 4: Like we're we're there's a risk to us, or we

1282
01:12:03,840 --> 01:12:08,479
Speaker 4: perceive a risk to us, and we might might as

1283
01:12:08,520 --> 01:12:13,040
Speaker 4: well fire, And so yeah, I think I think again.

1284
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:15,080
Speaker 19: You know, you can look at the tactical question Ryan,

1285
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:19,240
Speaker 19: why did this specific tank fire, And honestly, I wouldn't

1286
01:12:19,240 --> 01:12:19,840
Speaker 19: have the answer.

1287
01:12:20,160 --> 01:12:22,799
Speaker 1: I would assume it was because they felt in danger.

1288
01:12:23,360 --> 01:12:24,719
Speaker 1: But I think the bigger question.

1289
01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:28,960
Speaker 19: Is what is happening with this entire experiment of changing

1290
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 19: the mechanism of the aid distribution, which I remind you

1291
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:34,479
Speaker 19: about one hundred days ago when the war in Gaza

1292
01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:37,959
Speaker 19: was renewed after the Trump wit CoV cease fire collapsed

1293
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:41,440
Speaker 19: because NATANIAO chose to renew the war. This was presented

1294
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:44,760
Speaker 19: at least domestically to people in Israel, but I think

1295
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:48,120
Speaker 19: also it on the international scene as the big game changer.

1296
01:12:48,200 --> 01:12:49,040
Speaker 1: You know, you would have this.

1297
01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:55,280
Speaker 19: Supposedly neutral but in fact very much aligned with Israeli

1298
01:12:55,400 --> 01:12:59,120
Speaker 19: and American government's aid organization, you know, the Ghazi Hunanitarian

1299
01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:02,760
Speaker 19: Foundation ache over the aid distribution. Hamas would no longer

1300
01:13:02,840 --> 01:13:04,760
Speaker 19: be able to control it. They wouldn't be able to

1301
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:07,920
Speaker 19: loot and steal the a and everything would be run

1302
01:13:08,120 --> 01:13:12,320
Speaker 19: through these encampments. It would all be very professional, and

1303
01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:15,880
Speaker 19: a lot of eight organizations that have more experience working

1304
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:18,040
Speaker 19: in Gaza and elsewhere in the world said, this doesn't

1305
01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:19,920
Speaker 19: make any sense. This is going to turn out into

1306
01:13:20,000 --> 01:13:23,320
Speaker 19: a disaster, and they gave several.

1307
01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:24,439
Speaker 1: Reasons for their warnings.

1308
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:27,000
Speaker 19: One of it was again, he would have Hamas on

1309
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:29,760
Speaker 19: the one hand trying to stop it, and on the

1310
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:32,479
Speaker 19: other hand, the Israeli soldiers were supposed to bring some

1311
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:35,600
Speaker 19: layer of protection to these centers, and if you have

1312
01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:38,120
Speaker 19: any situation where they start firing at one another, this

1313
01:13:38,280 --> 01:13:42,400
Speaker 19: becomes a blood death. And I think after one hundred

1314
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:45,640
Speaker 19: days since the war was renewed, I don't see the

1315
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:47,559
Speaker 19: big change on the ground.

1316
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:49,400
Speaker 1: I see still people dying every day.

1317
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:53,120
Speaker 19: I see the hostages still held by Hamas, and Hamas

1318
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:56,840
Speaker 19: hasn't budged in their position that the war must end

1319
01:13:56,920 --> 01:13:58,360
Speaker 19: in order to have the release.

1320
01:13:58,120 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 1: Of all the hostages.

1321
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:03,240
Speaker 19: And we are still seeing, by the way, apart from

1322
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:06,400
Speaker 19: these eight distribution centers and everything that's happening around them,

1323
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:11,519
Speaker 19: trucks coming into Gaza and being looted and people stealing.

1324
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:14,840
Speaker 19: One of the explanations you're reading now in Israeli media

1325
01:14:15,240 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 19: is that it's not Hamas doing the looting, it's local

1326
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:22,080
Speaker 19: clans or you know, sometimes the clan can be a

1327
01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:25,200
Speaker 19: nice word for a crime organization. I'm not sure how

1328
01:14:25,280 --> 01:14:30,200
Speaker 19: that's better, honestly, but it's become a dystopia nightmare really,

1329
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:32,960
Speaker 19: and again, to me, it all comes back to the

1330
01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:37,080
Speaker 19: fundamental question, why is this war continuing. Why aren't we

1331
01:14:37,200 --> 01:14:40,440
Speaker 19: getting to a deal that would bring back the hostages

1332
01:14:40,479 --> 01:14:42,360
Speaker 19: and end this insanity.

1333
01:14:42,680 --> 01:14:44,920
Speaker 4: And to the point of the war ending. Let's let's

1334
01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:47,840
Speaker 4: move on to your piece that you wrote in how

1335
01:14:47,960 --> 01:14:50,680
Speaker 4: Ratz yesterday. Again we're joined here by a mere to

1336
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:54,360
Speaker 4: Bone columnist for the Israeli newspaper, as well as Dave Smith,

1337
01:14:54,520 --> 01:14:56,559
Speaker 4: so we can put up d one. This is your

1338
01:14:56,600 --> 01:14:59,639
Speaker 4: column yesday where you and in the past when we've

1339
01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:02,400
Speaker 4: had you on and you've made predictions that Trump or

1340
01:15:02,439 --> 01:15:06,920
Speaker 4: Whitcoff were making particular strategic mistakes. Your your predictions have

1341
01:15:07,479 --> 01:15:10,280
Speaker 4: very unfortunately borne out and been accurate. And so now

1342
01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:16,000
Speaker 4: you're warning again here that that Trump is misunderstanding that

1343
01:15:16,120 --> 01:15:20,720
Speaker 4: Yahoo and making mistake in if people have seen it, Dave,

1344
01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:23,720
Speaker 4: I'm sure you've seen these Trump sending these long love

1345
01:15:23,800 --> 01:15:29,560
Speaker 4: letters to net Yahoo and basically berating the Israeli judiciary

1346
01:15:30,240 --> 01:15:33,400
Speaker 4: threatening to withhold us, you know, implicitly threatening to withhold

1347
01:15:33,479 --> 01:15:35,920
Speaker 4: us funding if the judges don't drop all of these

1348
01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:40,360
Speaker 4: different corruption charges against nen Yahoo, which presumably Trump thinks

1349
01:15:41,160 --> 01:15:44,479
Speaker 4: is some there are some obstacle to net Yahoo reaching

1350
01:15:44,520 --> 01:15:46,919
Speaker 4: a deal, which maybe in his mind they are. Let's

1351
01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:49,880
Speaker 4: tell us like, what is what is Trump thinking and

1352
01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:51,080
Speaker 4: why do you think this is wrong?

1353
01:15:53,080 --> 01:15:55,280
Speaker 19: So first of all, Ryan, I can say with one

1354
01:15:55,360 --> 01:15:58,320
Speaker 19: hundred percent certainty, what is Trump thinking? But I can

1355
01:15:58,400 --> 01:16:01,599
Speaker 19: look at his actions and made he tried to understand.

1356
01:16:02,200 --> 01:16:05,599
Speaker 19: So he got the Iran war done. Right after those

1357
01:16:05,640 --> 01:16:09,240
Speaker 19: twelve days, he got a ceasefire between Israel and Iran.

1358
01:16:09,360 --> 01:16:12,240
Speaker 19: There was that moment where Natania wanted to send more

1359
01:16:12,360 --> 01:16:16,400
Speaker 19: planes over there, and he stopped the mid level. I

1360
01:16:16,439 --> 01:16:19,160
Speaker 19: don't know, maybe now the pilots need to have truth Social,

1361
01:16:19,560 --> 01:16:21,160
Speaker 19: you know, installed in those.

1362
01:16:21,320 --> 01:16:24,160
Speaker 1: Thirty five so that they know what they're doing.

1363
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:28,439
Speaker 19: And then everybody expected him to move to Gaza, because

1364
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:30,479
Speaker 19: I want to remind you a month and a half ago,

1365
01:16:30,960 --> 01:16:34,760
Speaker 19: when we had that separate US Hamas Qatar deal to

1366
01:16:34,920 --> 01:16:39,840
Speaker 19: release Idan Alexander, the Israeli American hostage, the soldier, the

1367
01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:42,840
Speaker 19: lone soldier was taken by Hamas. At the time, Trump

1368
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:46,920
Speaker 19: already wrote on truth Social that it's time to end

1369
01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:48,639
Speaker 19: this brutal war.

1370
01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:51,479
Speaker 1: That's a quote that he used. That was a month

1371
01:16:51,520 --> 01:16:52,120
Speaker 1: and a half ago.

1372
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:57,639
Speaker 19: But suddenly now instead of putting everything on Gaza, we're

1373
01:16:57,680 --> 01:17:01,280
Speaker 19: seeing him pushing instead to cancel and Taniau's criminal trial,

1374
01:17:01,439 --> 01:17:04,679
Speaker 19: you know, to length the angry posts on this issue

1375
01:17:04,720 --> 01:17:05,920
Speaker 19: within forty eight hours.

1376
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:09,160
Speaker 1: So what some people are saying is well, there's an

1377
01:17:09,200 --> 01:17:10,280
Speaker 1: obvious linkage here.

1378
01:17:10,680 --> 01:17:13,760
Speaker 19: He wants the Natanio trial to be canceled or at

1379
01:17:13,840 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 19: least to show Nathaniel that he's batting hard for him,

1380
01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:19,559
Speaker 19: and then in return, Natanieo will.

1381
01:17:19,479 --> 01:17:23,640
Speaker 1: Give him what he wants on Gaza again. You know,

1382
01:17:24,360 --> 01:17:25,800
Speaker 1: there are several problems with this.

1383
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:30,000
Speaker 19: First of all, the mechanism for ending the Nataniao trial

1384
01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:32,840
Speaker 19: runs through some kind of a plea agreement between him

1385
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:38,400
Speaker 19: and the prosecution, and the prosecution has said, okay, we

1386
01:17:38,479 --> 01:17:41,880
Speaker 19: can erase all the charges against Antanio, but he needs

1387
01:17:41,960 --> 01:17:45,040
Speaker 19: to admit that he did something wrong, because that's usually

1388
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:48,000
Speaker 19: part of a plea agreement, And he needs to be

1389
01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:52,280
Speaker 19: retiring from his position of power so that he cannot

1390
01:17:52,360 --> 01:17:56,080
Speaker 19: do corrupt actions again in the future. And antania refuses completely.

1391
01:17:57,000 --> 01:18:00,680
Speaker 19: I don't see how Trump's intervention can change that. And

1392
01:18:01,280 --> 01:18:04,839
Speaker 19: he can put threats, and by the way, I understood

1393
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:08,559
Speaker 19: his threat, not specifically to take military aid from Israel,

1394
01:18:08,600 --> 01:18:12,519
Speaker 19: but maybe to put sanctions on the prosecution in Israel

1395
01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:16,479
Speaker 19: and on the judges and basically do something that would

1396
01:18:16,520 --> 01:18:19,120
Speaker 19: hurt them personally. But even that I don't think would help,

1397
01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:22,120
Speaker 19: because you would see strong pushback against that.

1398
01:18:22,720 --> 01:18:23,360
Speaker 1: In Israel.

1399
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:27,479
Speaker 19: Trump is very popular in Israel after what happened in Iran, especially,

1400
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:30,559
Speaker 19: he's seen as the savior who came to help Israel

1401
01:18:30,600 --> 01:18:34,560
Speaker 19: against the Iranian nuclear threat. But you can throw a

1402
01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:38,920
Speaker 19: lot of appreciation and goodwill away if you're seeing as

1403
01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:41,799
Speaker 19: someone who's meddling in the internal affairs of the country

1404
01:18:41,840 --> 01:18:45,960
Speaker 19: and trying to impose judicial outcomes on something that's really

1405
01:18:46,080 --> 01:18:48,720
Speaker 19: none of any other countries business.

1406
01:18:50,880 --> 01:18:50,920
Speaker 1: To.

1407
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:53,920
Speaker 19: The second issue is that the real obstacle to a

1408
01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:56,559
Speaker 19: deal in Gaza, a deal to bring back all the.

1409
01:18:56,600 --> 01:18:59,840
Speaker 1: Hostages and end the war, is not the natany out

1410
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:04,080
Speaker 1: There's just no connection between the two things.

1411
01:19:04,160 --> 01:19:08,320
Speaker 19: The real obstacle has been all along that NATANIEO doesn't

1412
01:19:08,760 --> 01:19:12,439
Speaker 19: agree to end the war, and that's fundamentally what Hamas

1413
01:19:13,479 --> 01:19:16,639
Speaker 19: are saying they will demand in order to release all

1414
01:19:16,680 --> 01:19:19,840
Speaker 19: the hostages, and a lot of military pressure and a

1415
01:19:19,920 --> 01:19:22,320
Speaker 19: lot of death and destruction in Gaza so far has

1416
01:19:22,439 --> 01:19:25,760
Speaker 19: not changed their demand. Were six hundred and thirty two

1417
01:19:25,880 --> 01:19:29,679
Speaker 19: days into the snipmer and we already had an agreement

1418
01:19:29,760 --> 01:19:32,600
Speaker 19: in place right the agreement in January that Trump and

1419
01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:37,080
Speaker 19: wikoff together with the last breath of the Biden administration

1420
01:19:37,360 --> 01:19:39,479
Speaker 19: they brought together. But I give most of the credit

1421
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:41,719
Speaker 19: to Trump and Wikock because the Biden team was working

1422
01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:43,320
Speaker 19: on this for months and they got nothing.

1423
01:19:43,400 --> 01:19:46,400
Speaker 1: Really Suddenly Witkof emerged and boom, it was done.

1424
01:19:47,200 --> 01:19:51,960
Speaker 19: That deal had everything spelled out already, you know, first phase,

1425
01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:57,880
Speaker 19: thirty three hostages, thousand Palestinian prisoners, partial Israeli withdrawal, more

1426
01:19:57,960 --> 01:20:01,320
Speaker 19: aid coming into Gaza. All of that was successfully implemented

1427
01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:05,880
Speaker 19: in February and the beginning of March. But then Nataniao

1428
01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:09,080
Speaker 19: invented new parameters for the agreement, walked away from what

1429
01:20:09,200 --> 01:20:12,840
Speaker 19: he signed and he said, no, I want a partial ceasefire,

1430
01:20:13,760 --> 01:20:16,519
Speaker 19: partial withdrawal, only some of the hostages come back.

1431
01:20:17,240 --> 01:20:18,479
Speaker 1: And that's when it all fell apart.

1432
01:20:19,200 --> 01:20:22,000
Speaker 19: It's going to be four months soon because time is

1433
01:20:22,080 --> 01:20:25,360
Speaker 19: passing and people are dying and the suffering is continuing.

1434
01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:29,320
Speaker 19: And that's the fundamental problem. It's not about Nataniao's trial,

1435
01:20:29,880 --> 01:20:33,519
Speaker 19: it's not about Iran. It's about one question. Ken Trump

1436
01:20:34,560 --> 01:20:36,120
Speaker 19: convinced Nathanieo to.

1437
01:20:36,280 --> 01:20:38,479
Speaker 1: Stop the war. That's it.

1438
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:42,640
Speaker 19: And so far, with all the talk and all the grandeur,

1439
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:45,479
Speaker 19: and there was a Trump tweet the other day about

1440
01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:48,439
Speaker 19: you know, take the Gaza deal, get the hostages. The

1441
01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:52,599
Speaker 19: real question is will there be any pressure from Trump

1442
01:20:53,160 --> 01:20:56,080
Speaker 19: to make this happen? And it's binary, you know, one

1443
01:20:56,200 --> 01:20:58,479
Speaker 19: or zero, that's what it will take.

1444
01:21:00,280 --> 01:21:03,280
Speaker 8: Did you feel like you mentioned the Witcough deal that

1445
01:21:03,760 --> 01:21:06,920
Speaker 8: he got through during Joe Biden's lamed up, which I

1446
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:10,080
Speaker 8: agree with you certainly seems that, yes, the Biden administration

1447
01:21:10,280 --> 01:21:12,240
Speaker 8: had this deal on the table, I think since May

1448
01:21:13,120 --> 01:21:16,400
Speaker 8: of twenty twenty twenty four, and then it doesn't happen

1449
01:21:16,479 --> 01:21:18,920
Speaker 8: until witkof comes in. From all the reporting that I

1450
01:21:19,000 --> 01:21:21,200
Speaker 8: read about that, it does seem like they were putting

1451
01:21:21,240 --> 01:21:23,960
Speaker 8: some pressure on the net and Yahu government. And it

1452
01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:27,880
Speaker 8: seems one of the things that's kind of bizarre about

1453
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:31,719
Speaker 8: this whole thing from the American perspective is that Donald Trump,

1454
01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:35,679
Speaker 8: you know, if any country was imposing this albatross around

1455
01:21:35,760 --> 01:21:38,920
Speaker 8: his neck that Israel is, and he politically wanted to

1456
01:21:39,000 --> 01:21:42,200
Speaker 8: get this thing done, and he was funding the thing,

1457
01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:45,479
Speaker 8: you know, we'd see him insulting them, threatening to pull

1458
01:21:45,560 --> 01:21:49,599
Speaker 8: the funding. It seems like very easy theoretically for America

1459
01:21:49,680 --> 01:21:52,320
Speaker 8: to put pressure on Israel since they are funding and

1460
01:21:52,520 --> 01:21:56,040
Speaker 8: arming this campaign. And yet in this case, it just

1461
01:21:56,080 --> 01:21:58,400
Speaker 8: seems like that there was a little bit of pressure

1462
01:21:58,439 --> 01:22:01,840
Speaker 8: that Witkoff put on Yahoo at the very beginning, and

1463
01:22:02,120 --> 01:22:05,280
Speaker 8: now there is this inability to do that. It's something

1464
01:22:05,320 --> 01:22:07,120
Speaker 8: that's kind of fascinating to me and I think a

1465
01:22:07,160 --> 01:22:10,160
Speaker 8: lot of other Americans. Of course, we've seen Benjamin Netanyahu

1466
01:22:10,280 --> 01:22:14,920
Speaker 8: on secret recordings bragging about how he can move America

1467
01:22:15,120 --> 01:22:19,240
Speaker 8: in the past. What's your perspective on that, is Netanyahu,

1468
01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:22,599
Speaker 8: is his administration concerned about this pressure or do they

1469
01:22:22,680 --> 01:22:24,360
Speaker 8: feel like they can get what they want.

1470
01:22:26,520 --> 01:22:28,559
Speaker 19: I think that when with Kov came to the region

1471
01:22:28,720 --> 01:22:33,800
Speaker 19: right before Trump's inauguration, everybody had one mission on their minds,

1472
01:22:34,360 --> 01:22:37,320
Speaker 19: which was don't get this guy's boss angry at you.

1473
01:22:38,080 --> 01:22:41,040
Speaker 19: And with Kov played that card very smartly. He played

1474
01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:43,400
Speaker 19: it with Katar, he played it with Egypt, he played

1475
01:22:43,400 --> 01:22:47,479
Speaker 19: it with Israel. And from Hamas's perspective, I think they

1476
01:22:47,520 --> 01:22:49,880
Speaker 19: were willing to go along with Trump and not with

1477
01:22:50,040 --> 01:22:53,639
Speaker 19: Biden because they said, Okay, there's a risk here, because

1478
01:22:53,720 --> 01:22:57,519
Speaker 19: the mechanism of the agreement always included a loophole through

1479
01:22:57,560 --> 01:22:59,960
Speaker 19: which NATANIAO could break the deal and renew the world.

1480
01:23:00,800 --> 01:23:02,680
Speaker 19: But they said, if we do it with by the end,

1481
01:23:02,720 --> 01:23:04,600
Speaker 19: you know, in a few months we get Trump and

1482
01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:06,599
Speaker 19: then who knows what happens.

1483
01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:08,439
Speaker 1: But with CoV this is Trump's guy.

1484
01:23:09,040 --> 01:23:12,800
Speaker 19: So if this is an agreement that he is responsible for,

1485
01:23:13,439 --> 01:23:15,519
Speaker 19: there's a bigger likelihood that this won't happen.

1486
01:23:16,439 --> 01:23:21,000
Speaker 1: And then it did happen. And now the question again is,

1487
01:23:21,080 --> 01:23:24,000
Speaker 1: you know, does Trump want this war to end enough

1488
01:23:24,200 --> 01:23:25,360
Speaker 1: to use his leverage?

1489
01:23:25,400 --> 01:23:27,320
Speaker 19: And by the way, I don't think he needs to

1490
01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:30,519
Speaker 19: put any kind of threats like the ones that you

1491
01:23:31,120 --> 01:23:35,040
Speaker 19: hinted at. I think his popularity in Israel, especially now

1492
01:23:35,120 --> 01:23:38,960
Speaker 19: at this moment, you know, just a public call to

1493
01:23:39,080 --> 01:23:42,080
Speaker 19: do it would pretty much be enough. And it would

1494
01:23:42,120 --> 01:23:45,519
Speaker 19: actually help NITANIAO in a sense because NATANIAO could come

1495
01:23:45,600 --> 01:23:48,880
Speaker 19: and say, well, you know what, we didn't achieve all

1496
01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:52,000
Speaker 19: of the goals in the war supposedly, but President Trump

1497
01:23:52,120 --> 01:23:54,120
Speaker 19: is asking us and look what he just did for

1498
01:23:54,240 --> 01:23:56,840
Speaker 19: us in Iran. So it wouldn't even take a lot,

1499
01:23:56,920 --> 01:23:59,120
Speaker 19: because you know, there is a political price to pay.

1500
01:23:59,600 --> 01:24:03,400
Speaker 19: I said, you know, I'm going to go to a

1501
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:06,080
Speaker 19: great lengths to get the seasfire and have a full

1502
01:24:06,120 --> 01:24:09,040
Speaker 19: on confrontation with NATANIAO. And I think he would emerge

1503
01:24:09,120 --> 01:24:12,160
Speaker 19: victorious from a confrontation like that, I really do. But

1504
01:24:12,479 --> 01:24:16,160
Speaker 19: right now it would even require less than that. So

1505
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:19,080
Speaker 19: why isn't he doing? Honestly, I don't have the answer.

1506
01:24:19,360 --> 01:24:21,599
Speaker 19: And maybe in the few next few days we'll see

1507
01:24:21,600 --> 01:24:26,560
Speaker 19: something change. Right Ron Dermer Nathaniel's closest aid is in

1508
01:24:26,760 --> 01:24:27,559
Speaker 19: Washington right now.

1509
01:24:27,640 --> 01:24:29,240
Speaker 1: He's going to have meetings in the White House.

1510
01:24:29,560 --> 01:24:32,679
Speaker 19: There was a meeting over the weekend between Marco Rubio

1511
01:24:32,760 --> 01:24:35,640
Speaker 19: and the families of some of the Israeli hostages, and

1512
01:24:35,800 --> 01:24:38,519
Speaker 19: the families are pushing for this right The families are

1513
01:24:38,560 --> 01:24:41,800
Speaker 19: basically saying, we want the war over. We don't want

1514
01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:46,599
Speaker 19: another partial deal. Five hostages there, three hostages in three months.

1515
01:24:47,000 --> 01:24:50,160
Speaker 19: We want everybody released. The war is over, it's done.

1516
01:24:51,200 --> 01:24:54,240
Speaker 19: But the question what is Trump going to do? And

1517
01:24:54,320 --> 01:24:58,439
Speaker 19: I guess that's you know, always the unknown territory. So

1518
01:24:58,800 --> 01:25:01,040
Speaker 19: the war is over if Trump wants it, is the

1519
01:25:01,080 --> 01:25:05,519
Speaker 19: bottom line. Amir Bone a columnist at how Retz. Thank

1520
01:25:05,600 --> 01:25:07,240
Speaker 19: thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

1521
01:25:08,320 --> 01:25:09,920
Speaker 1: Thank you, guys. Let's hope for good news.

1522
01:25:10,800 --> 01:25:11,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's.

1523
01:25:14,600 --> 01:25:14,640
Speaker 1: So.

1524
01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:19,120
Speaker 4: On June eighteenth, Karen Reid was finally, after a multi

1525
01:25:19,240 --> 01:25:25,480
Speaker 4: year saga, acquitted of a murder in Canton Massachusetts.

1526
01:25:26,080 --> 01:25:29,160
Speaker 11: Is that right, Aiden, Camp Massachusets is corrected.

1527
01:25:29,439 --> 01:25:34,879
Speaker 4: Massachusetts, And it was a case that captured international attention,

1528
01:25:35,240 --> 01:25:38,559
Speaker 4: will be the subject of many has been the subject

1529
01:25:38,600 --> 01:25:41,080
Speaker 4: of documentaries, will be the subject of movies and documentaries

1530
01:25:41,120 --> 01:25:45,280
Speaker 4: and books and so on. And one of the reporters

1531
01:25:45,439 --> 01:25:49,040
Speaker 4: or they maybe the reporter who helped bring it to

1532
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:55,040
Speaker 4: national international attention. Aiden Carney, who known online as doctor

1533
01:25:55,120 --> 01:26:00,120
Speaker 4: turtle Boy, is here on Breaking Points. We're very I

1534
01:26:00,200 --> 01:26:03,880
Speaker 4: did to be joined by doctor turtle Boy, Aiden Carney. Aiden,

1535
01:26:03,960 --> 01:26:05,519
Speaker 4: thank you so much for joining us.

1536
01:26:06,240 --> 01:26:07,960
Speaker 11: Thank you for having me Ryan, I really appreciate it

1537
01:26:08,080 --> 01:26:08,439
Speaker 11: being there.

1538
01:26:09,120 --> 01:26:11,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so we want to talk a little bit

1539
01:26:11,040 --> 01:26:12,840
Speaker 4: about the case, but mostly I actually want to talk

1540
01:26:12,880 --> 01:26:16,519
Speaker 4: about your case because I think it's a fascinating, important,

1541
01:26:16,560 --> 01:26:21,439
Speaker 4: and overlooked case of press freedom. Because as a result,

1542
01:26:21,520 --> 01:26:24,599
Speaker 4: as a direct result of your coverage of this case,

1543
01:26:24,680 --> 01:26:27,960
Speaker 4: you have gone up against the same kind of system

1544
01:26:28,360 --> 01:26:34,680
Speaker 4: of law enforcement that you accused of corruptly mishandling at

1545
01:26:34,760 --> 01:26:39,200
Speaker 4: best the case of Karen Reid, and they have retaliated

1546
01:26:39,240 --> 01:26:42,280
Speaker 4: against you in an extraordinary way. You've already been behind

1547
01:26:42,360 --> 01:26:44,760
Speaker 4: bars as a result of it, and you continue to

1548
01:26:44,840 --> 01:26:48,080
Speaker 4: face down charges. But for people who don't know the case.

1549
01:26:48,240 --> 01:26:51,559
Speaker 4: Let's let me try to give him a quick thumbnail sketch,

1550
01:26:52,160 --> 01:26:54,160
Speaker 4: and you can you can tell people, you know, the

1551
01:26:54,200 --> 01:26:57,760
Speaker 4: important bars that I'm I'm missing. But essentially, Karen Reid

1552
01:26:58,520 --> 01:27:03,800
Speaker 4: was dating a police office her name, John O'Keefe in Canton, Massachusetts.

1553
01:27:04,200 --> 01:27:07,240
Speaker 4: They go out to a bar drinking with a whole

1554
01:27:07,240 --> 01:27:10,479
Speaker 4: bunch of other cops. Uh, there's a there's one cop

1555
01:27:10,560 --> 01:27:13,280
Speaker 4: there who she's got some kind of a flirty text

1556
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:17,960
Speaker 4: relationship with. She and John drive to an after party

1557
01:27:18,600 --> 01:27:21,880
Speaker 4: at at you know, one of the cops houses who

1558
01:27:21,960 --> 01:27:25,200
Speaker 4: was at the bar with them. She just doesn't go

1559
01:27:25,280 --> 01:27:27,479
Speaker 4: into the house. He says he's going to go, and

1560
01:27:27,560 --> 01:27:29,920
Speaker 4: she tells him go in, tell me if it's cool

1561
01:27:30,040 --> 01:27:33,720
Speaker 4: or not. She waits about he goes, He goes in. Well,

1562
01:27:33,760 --> 01:27:37,720
Speaker 4: this is the debate. She waits about ten minutes and

1563
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:41,240
Speaker 4: she leaves. He is then found the next morning on

1564
01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:46,120
Speaker 4: the front lawn of the cops house. The cops charge

1565
01:27:46,960 --> 01:27:50,800
Speaker 4: her with hitting him, knocking him into the ground, and

1566
01:27:50,920 --> 01:27:54,040
Speaker 4: then he dies of hypothermia overnight. They never go into

1567
01:27:54,120 --> 01:27:57,519
Speaker 4: the you know, they don't go into the officer's house.

1568
01:27:58,040 --> 01:27:59,400
Speaker 11: We didn't, he didn't die.

1569
01:28:00,360 --> 01:28:01,519
Speaker 8: But right, So.

1570
01:28:03,680 --> 01:28:05,200
Speaker 4: Is there any important piece I'm missing there because I

1571
01:28:05,200 --> 01:28:07,160
Speaker 4: don't want to spend too much time on the case itself,

1572
01:28:08,320 --> 01:28:10,960
Speaker 4: but tell us, like what attracted your attention to it?

1573
01:28:11,600 --> 01:28:13,919
Speaker 11: So what attracted my attention to it? Initially?

1574
01:28:14,040 --> 01:28:16,719
Speaker 17: You know, it makes headlines when a police officer is killed,

1575
01:28:17,160 --> 01:28:19,080
Speaker 17: and that's kind of a story that I write about.

1576
01:28:19,160 --> 01:28:23,639
Speaker 17: So you know, I'm conservative, right and so like during

1577
01:28:23,720 --> 01:28:26,559
Speaker 17: the whole like summer of twenty twenty, like I took

1578
01:28:27,000 --> 01:28:28,599
Speaker 17: the back the blue.

1579
01:28:28,400 --> 01:28:30,800
Speaker 11: Position, if you will, on that, and that's kind of

1580
01:28:30,880 --> 01:28:31,800
Speaker 11: like my bread and butter.

1581
01:28:32,000 --> 01:28:34,360
Speaker 17: And you know, when police officers are killed in the

1582
01:28:34,400 --> 01:28:37,360
Speaker 17: line of duty around here in Massachusetts, it's always like

1583
01:28:37,479 --> 01:28:38,200
Speaker 17: the same theme.

1584
01:28:38,840 --> 01:28:41,080
Speaker 11: The profile of a cop killer is like always the same.

1585
01:28:41,520 --> 01:28:46,759
Speaker 17: It's somebody who has a long and documented history of violence, arrests.

1586
01:28:47,479 --> 01:28:49,800
Speaker 17: You could have seen it coming a mile away, and

1587
01:28:50,360 --> 01:28:52,840
Speaker 17: they never should have been out roaming the streets.

1588
01:28:52,479 --> 01:28:53,240
Speaker 11: In the first place.

1589
01:28:54,320 --> 01:28:56,600
Speaker 17: So when I saw a police officers killed, you know,

1590
01:28:56,800 --> 01:28:59,120
Speaker 17: I look into it and I see it's this, it's

1591
01:28:59,200 --> 01:29:01,519
Speaker 17: the girlfriend who did it, And I'm like, well, does

1592
01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:02,679
Speaker 17: she have a history of violence?

1593
01:29:02,800 --> 01:29:03,479
Speaker 11: Let's look in at her.

1594
01:29:03,840 --> 01:29:06,479
Speaker 17: And I looked into her and she's Jike, some you know,

1595
01:29:07,479 --> 01:29:11,760
Speaker 17: number cruncher at Fidelity, working as a financial analyst, and

1596
01:29:12,479 --> 01:29:15,439
Speaker 17: no history of violence whatsoever. And it appeared to all

1597
01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:18,200
Speaker 17: be a horrible accident. It sounded like I didn't look

1598
01:29:18,240 --> 01:29:20,439
Speaker 17: into it much. It's there was a blizzard that night,

1599
01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:22,519
Speaker 17: and I'm like, well, it sounded like there was like

1600
01:29:22,520 --> 01:29:24,960
Speaker 17: a foot of snow and she accidentally backed into him

1601
01:29:25,000 --> 01:29:27,880
Speaker 17: without realizing it after dropping them off, And wow, what

1602
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:31,920
Speaker 17: a horrible, horrible way to die, like the tragedy for everyone.

1603
01:29:32,120 --> 01:29:35,240
Speaker 17: So I really had little interest in the story because

1604
01:29:35,320 --> 01:29:38,520
Speaker 17: it just it just sounded like a horrible, sad tragedy

1605
01:29:39,040 --> 01:29:42,439
Speaker 17: that I wasn't that into. And so I honestly forgot

1606
01:29:42,439 --> 01:29:46,360
Speaker 17: the name Karen Reid. And she was indicted, and I

1607
01:29:46,400 --> 01:29:49,120
Speaker 17: didn't even pay attention to it, because the original arrest

1608
01:29:49,200 --> 01:29:51,080
Speaker 17: gets a lot of attention, but not the indictment. I

1609
01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:54,360
Speaker 17: didn't even know what an indictment was until I was indicted. Like,

1610
01:29:54,560 --> 01:29:57,439
Speaker 17: it's just move your case to a more important courtroom

1611
01:29:57,880 --> 01:30:00,439
Speaker 17: where you know you can face more years in jail, essentially,

1612
01:30:00,479 --> 01:30:01,120
Speaker 17: that's what it means.

1613
01:30:01,680 --> 01:30:04,160
Speaker 11: And so I know forgot about it.

1614
01:30:04,280 --> 01:30:06,479
Speaker 17: And then in April of twenty twenty three, I saw

1615
01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:09,760
Speaker 17: a couple headlines about something about a Google search at

1616
01:30:09,760 --> 01:30:13,120
Speaker 17: two twenty seven someone inside the house where John O'Keefe

1617
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:15,720
Speaker 17: was found on the lawn of had googled how long

1618
01:30:15,800 --> 01:30:18,040
Speaker 17: too that and cold at two twenty seven am, and

1619
01:30:18,160 --> 01:30:20,960
Speaker 17: that this was suspicious and I hadn't really take it

1620
01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:22,719
Speaker 17: into full implication of what that meant.

1621
01:30:23,280 --> 01:30:25,479
Speaker 11: And so then I got, you know, I put it

1622
01:30:25,560 --> 01:30:27,160
Speaker 11: on my to do list of things to look into.

1623
01:30:27,680 --> 01:30:29,840
Speaker 17: It was busy that week, and then five days later,

1624
01:30:29,880 --> 01:30:32,759
Speaker 17: April seventeenth, I got a message from a Duxbury police

1625
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:34,800
Speaker 17: officer or a retired Duxbury cop by the name of

1626
01:30:34,880 --> 01:30:37,960
Speaker 17: Brian Johnson, who generally has the same position with me

1627
01:30:38,080 --> 01:30:41,559
Speaker 17: on policing back to blue, et cetera. And he tells

1628
01:30:41,640 --> 01:30:44,040
Speaker 17: me that, like, you need to look into this case.

1629
01:30:44,439 --> 01:30:47,880
Speaker 17: It appears as if this woman is being framed. John

1630
01:30:48,000 --> 01:30:50,120
Speaker 17: used to work with me at Duxbury Police. I actually

1631
01:30:50,200 --> 01:30:52,360
Speaker 17: trained him because John used to be a Duxbury police

1632
01:30:52,360 --> 01:30:54,560
Speaker 17: officer or a small town on the South Shore, and

1633
01:30:55,360 --> 01:30:57,280
Speaker 17: you know, he's like, something doesn't add up about this.

1634
01:30:57,439 --> 01:31:00,000
Speaker 11: And the homeowner is a Boston cop named Brian All.

1635
01:31:00,240 --> 01:31:04,040
Speaker 17: Who has a notorious record as being a hothead, you know,

1636
01:31:04,600 --> 01:31:07,680
Speaker 17: a boxer, a fighter, and he's not really well liked

1637
01:31:07,720 --> 01:31:10,439
Speaker 17: in Boston police. So like, I think this woman has

1638
01:31:10,479 --> 01:31:13,000
Speaker 17: apparently been framed. So that means more to you coming

1639
01:31:13,120 --> 01:31:15,880
Speaker 17: from a police officer who's telling you that, Like, this

1640
01:31:16,000 --> 01:31:17,599
Speaker 17: woman appears to have been framed.

1641
01:31:18,080 --> 01:31:19,599
Speaker 11: And so I do a deep dive.

1642
01:31:19,720 --> 01:31:22,280
Speaker 17: I read Alan Jackson had filed a ninety four page

1643
01:31:22,320 --> 01:31:26,320
Speaker 17: affidavit a couple days prior that explained all of this stuff.

1644
01:31:26,439 --> 01:31:28,400
Speaker 17: And it was like reading a movie script when you're

1645
01:31:28,439 --> 01:31:31,639
Speaker 17: reading this, like this can't be real, Like this is crazy,

1646
01:31:31,760 --> 01:31:34,280
Speaker 17: Like this doesn't happen in real life, something so brazen.

1647
01:31:34,760 --> 01:31:37,639
Speaker 17: And you know, I'm a receipts guy. I like evidence.

1648
01:31:37,680 --> 01:31:39,360
Speaker 17: I don't just take people at their word for it.

1649
01:31:39,439 --> 01:31:43,400
Speaker 17: And Alan Jackson had cell bright reports from Jennifer McCabe's

1650
01:31:43,439 --> 01:31:45,960
Speaker 17: cell phone, from John O'Keeffe's cell phone showing that he

1651
01:31:46,080 --> 01:31:48,200
Speaker 17: was going up and down three flights of stairs. Karen

1652
01:31:48,240 --> 01:31:50,160
Speaker 17: Reid doesn't have a flight of stairs, and or alexis

1653
01:31:50,200 --> 01:31:53,559
Speaker 17: as nice as it is, you know, And so everything

1654
01:31:53,680 --> 01:31:57,719
Speaker 17: came back with data and evidence, and when it finally

1655
01:31:57,840 --> 01:32:00,160
Speaker 17: hits you what happened here, You're like, holy cat, Wow,

1656
01:32:00,760 --> 01:32:03,680
Speaker 17: this is the story of the century. So I made

1657
01:32:03,720 --> 01:32:06,680
Speaker 17: a post on April seventeenth that I was, you know,

1658
01:32:06,800 --> 01:32:08,960
Speaker 17: writing a story about what appears to be a Boston

1659
01:32:08,960 --> 01:32:11,000
Speaker 17: police officer who was killed inside the home of another

1660
01:32:11,040 --> 01:32:13,479
Speaker 17: Boston police officer and a girlfriend was being framed for it,

1661
01:32:14,000 --> 01:32:16,320
Speaker 17: and a lot of people were commenting saying, like, is

1662
01:32:16,400 --> 01:32:18,400
Speaker 17: this the story out of Canton? Oh, I remember this,

1663
01:32:18,600 --> 01:32:21,439
Speaker 17: and so people were really anticipating it. I spent all

1664
01:32:21,520 --> 01:32:24,080
Speaker 17: night writing my story on this. I published it at

1665
01:32:24,120 --> 01:32:28,000
Speaker 17: like three thirty am, and it kind of blew up,

1666
01:32:28,200 --> 01:32:30,120
Speaker 17: and I did a show about it, and it got

1667
01:32:30,160 --> 01:32:33,200
Speaker 17: a lot. You know, my audience grew greatly as a

1668
01:32:33,240 --> 01:32:35,639
Speaker 17: result of my first coverage of this, and I really

1669
01:32:35,680 --> 01:32:37,200
Speaker 17: thought that it was going to be the end of it.

1670
01:32:37,280 --> 01:32:39,519
Speaker 17: I'm like, well, they have to drop the charges now, right, Like,

1671
01:32:40,040 --> 01:32:43,000
Speaker 17: it's quite obvious this woman didn't do this and that

1672
01:32:43,160 --> 01:32:46,400
Speaker 17: somebody else did. And because silly me, I was operating

1673
01:32:46,479 --> 01:32:50,439
Speaker 17: under the impression that our institutions actually wanted justice for

1674
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:53,920
Speaker 17: people like John O'Keeffe and were actually interested in finding

1675
01:32:54,120 --> 01:32:55,840
Speaker 17: who actually killed him. And I thought that anyone with

1676
01:32:55,920 --> 01:32:57,920
Speaker 17: the brain looking at this knows that she didn't do this,

1677
01:32:58,360 --> 01:33:01,240
Speaker 17: and these people over here right clearly are suspicious and

1678
01:33:01,320 --> 01:33:02,880
Speaker 17: at the very least they should be looked into.

1679
01:33:04,040 --> 01:33:05,679
Speaker 11: But when they didn't, when they.

1680
01:33:05,920 --> 01:33:07,880
Speaker 17: Released a press release a couple of days after my

1681
01:33:07,960 --> 01:33:10,760
Speaker 17: first story and they kind of put their pedal to

1682
01:33:10,800 --> 01:33:12,840
Speaker 17: the metal and they're like, now we're doubling down, like

1683
01:33:12,920 --> 01:33:16,000
Speaker 17: we're going harder at her Now, that's when I realized that, oh, wow,

1684
01:33:16,080 --> 01:33:19,360
Speaker 17: this is much worse than I thought these are. It's

1685
01:33:19,400 --> 01:33:22,719
Speaker 17: the DA's office itself that is participant, that is okay

1686
01:33:22,800 --> 01:33:25,600
Speaker 17: with this, and our institutions are okay with this. And

1687
01:33:25,760 --> 01:33:27,920
Speaker 17: so that's when, you know, the harder they pushed, the

1688
01:33:28,000 --> 01:33:30,960
Speaker 17: harder I push back. And what kind of got me

1689
01:33:31,040 --> 01:33:34,400
Speaker 17: into hot water was, you know, I say, I wear

1690
01:33:34,479 --> 01:33:38,560
Speaker 17: three hats. I'm a journalist, I'm a satirist, and I'm

1691
01:33:38,560 --> 01:33:41,160
Speaker 17: an activist. Right when I'm When i'm a journalist, it's

1692
01:33:41,160 --> 01:33:43,800
Speaker 17: when i'm writing the stories and researching and doing all

1693
01:33:43,880 --> 01:33:45,920
Speaker 17: that stuff. When I'm a satirist, it's when I'm on

1694
01:33:46,000 --> 01:33:48,080
Speaker 17: my show and I'm cracking jokes and I'm being a

1695
01:33:48,120 --> 01:33:50,880
Speaker 17: little bit outrageous. When I'm an activist, it's when I'm

1696
01:33:50,960 --> 01:33:54,760
Speaker 17: showing up and i'm protesting and I'm urging people to

1697
01:33:54,800 --> 01:33:57,599
Speaker 17: write letters and emails and stuff like that and become involved.

1698
01:33:58,080 --> 01:34:01,040
Speaker 17: And so I put on my activist hat and I,

1699
01:34:01,200 --> 01:34:03,839
Speaker 17: you know, I went up to I said Jennifer McCabe.

1700
01:34:04,120 --> 01:34:07,519
Speaker 17: I saw her at a John o'keef hearing on May

1701
01:34:07,600 --> 01:34:09,640
Speaker 17: twenty fourth, about a month after I started writing it,

1702
01:34:10,120 --> 01:34:12,000
Speaker 17: and the woman who googled how long to die and

1703
01:34:12,080 --> 01:34:14,600
Speaker 17: cold it to twenty seven was there with her, you know,

1704
01:34:14,680 --> 01:34:17,880
Speaker 17: her husband, and she's wearing a Justice for JJ button

1705
01:34:18,240 --> 01:34:21,160
Speaker 17: And that just really offended me because she googled how

1706
01:34:21,240 --> 01:34:23,880
Speaker 17: long to die in cold in order to decide how

1707
01:34:23,960 --> 01:34:25,920
Speaker 17: long it would take for John to die in the cold,

1708
01:34:26,280 --> 01:34:28,479
Speaker 17: and then she shows up wearing that button. So I just,

1709
01:34:28,680 --> 01:34:30,600
Speaker 17: you know, I have a phone. I go outside and

1710
01:34:30,680 --> 01:34:32,439
Speaker 17: I start interviewing her, and I'm like, why are you

1711
01:34:32,520 --> 01:34:35,400
Speaker 17: wearing a Justice for JJ button when you helped, you know,

1712
01:34:35,680 --> 01:34:38,120
Speaker 17: cover up his murder? Like are you at all remorseful

1713
01:34:38,160 --> 01:34:38,320
Speaker 17: of that?

1714
01:34:38,400 --> 01:34:38,840
Speaker 11: Why did you.

1715
01:34:38,880 --> 01:34:41,520
Speaker 17: Delete all these phone calls? It's this thing called journalism

1716
01:34:41,600 --> 01:34:43,120
Speaker 17: that people used to do. You just go up to

1717
01:34:43,160 --> 01:34:46,400
Speaker 17: people and you ask him questions and at the end

1718
01:34:46,439 --> 01:34:48,680
Speaker 17: they walked away. And that's when my you know, my

1719
01:34:48,760 --> 01:34:50,400
Speaker 17: wild side came out, and I'm like, oh, these people

1720
01:34:50,400 --> 01:34:52,479
Speaker 17: are cop killers, ladies and gentlemen. They killed the Boston

1721
01:34:52,520 --> 01:34:55,000
Speaker 17: police officer and they're getting away with it and blah

1722
01:34:55,000 --> 01:34:57,439
Speaker 17: blah blah blah blah. So she went and tried to

1723
01:34:57,439 --> 01:35:00,040
Speaker 17: get a harassment prevention order on me after that, and

1724
01:35:00,200 --> 01:35:04,400
Speaker 17: the judge told her, sorry, like that's protected speech, He's

1725
01:35:04,400 --> 01:35:07,840
Speaker 17: allowed to do that. But she told the judge that

1726
01:35:08,120 --> 01:35:10,280
Speaker 17: is there anything you can do to get him to

1727
01:35:10,320 --> 01:35:13,000
Speaker 17: stop blogging about me? And I thought that was pretty

1728
01:35:13,240 --> 01:35:17,040
Speaker 17: telling about things to come. Anything you can do. She's

1729
01:35:17,120 --> 01:35:20,680
Speaker 17: asking the government, can you do something to silence this

1730
01:35:20,800 --> 01:35:24,080
Speaker 17: person's First Amendment rights? Because there I don't like what

1731
01:35:24,200 --> 01:35:26,880
Speaker 17: they're doing to me. I don't it's making me uncomfortable.

1732
01:35:26,880 --> 01:35:30,320
Speaker 17: I don't like him asking questions, et cetera. And the

1733
01:35:30,400 --> 01:35:32,080
Speaker 17: judge said, no, he has a first memor right to

1734
01:35:32,160 --> 01:35:35,040
Speaker 17: do it. So then about two weeks later, she I

1735
01:35:35,080 --> 01:35:37,560
Speaker 17: knew that her daughter at a lacrosse game at a

1736
01:35:37,640 --> 01:35:40,640
Speaker 17: town called bill Ricca. And you know, I knew that

1737
01:35:40,760 --> 01:35:42,519
Speaker 17: she'd be there, and I'm like, well, this is a

1738
01:35:42,560 --> 01:35:44,880
Speaker 17: public event. I have a right to go there if

1739
01:35:44,880 --> 01:35:46,599
Speaker 17: I want to and ask her questions. So I went

1740
01:35:46,680 --> 01:35:49,240
Speaker 17: there bought a ticket, and I went right up to

1741
01:35:49,320 --> 01:35:52,160
Speaker 17: her in the stands and I had a camera out

1742
01:35:52,200 --> 01:35:54,320
Speaker 17: and I her husband was there and he goes, hey,

1743
01:35:54,400 --> 01:35:57,360
Speaker 17: tough guy, how you been. Oh you're a lot smaller

1744
01:35:57,560 --> 01:36:00,240
Speaker 17: in person, like kind of mocking me whatever. And so

1745
01:36:00,320 --> 01:36:01,720
Speaker 17: I go over to her and I'm like, Jen, why

1746
01:36:01,760 --> 01:36:03,519
Speaker 17: did you go how long to die cold? At two

1747
01:36:03,560 --> 01:36:06,400
Speaker 17: twenty seven am? And she's laughing, She's like smiling about this.

1748
01:36:06,520 --> 01:36:08,080
Speaker 17: This is all like a big joke to her. I'm like,

1749
01:36:08,200 --> 01:36:10,519
Speaker 17: is this funny to you? Like a Boston police officer

1750
01:36:10,560 --> 01:36:13,320
Speaker 17: has been killed and you're laughing about it, and you know,

1751
01:36:13,640 --> 01:36:15,839
Speaker 17: I cause it's a scene, A scene is being caused.

1752
01:36:16,040 --> 01:36:18,840
Speaker 17: Security comes over from the school and they're like, this

1753
01:36:19,040 --> 01:36:21,280
Speaker 17: is not here, not And I'm okay, and I leave

1754
01:36:21,320 --> 01:36:22,960
Speaker 17: and I called her cop killer on the way out

1755
01:36:23,479 --> 01:36:26,679
Speaker 17: and I left and I have been indicted for fellowy

1756
01:36:26,720 --> 01:36:33,880
Speaker 17: witness intimidation for that because Massachusetts has a really broad,

1757
01:36:34,080 --> 01:36:37,840
Speaker 17: to say, the least witness intimidation statute. Every state has one,

1758
01:36:38,160 --> 01:36:42,200
Speaker 17: and they're they're necessary obviously, because you can't have witnesses

1759
01:36:42,280 --> 01:36:44,920
Speaker 17: and cases who are afraid to testify out of fear

1760
01:36:44,960 --> 01:36:46,719
Speaker 17: of violence from mobs.

1761
01:36:46,840 --> 01:36:47,920
Speaker 11: Or gangsters or whoever.

1762
01:36:48,080 --> 01:36:51,640
Speaker 17: Right, that's the traditional witness intimidation is supposed to be

1763
01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:55,200
Speaker 17: in spirit, but in Massachusetts it's much broader, and it

1764
01:36:55,280 --> 01:36:58,639
Speaker 17: says that you can't cause physical violence to a witness

1765
01:36:58,920 --> 01:37:02,400
Speaker 17: or a motional harm whatever that means, which is the

1766
01:37:02,479 --> 01:37:07,120
Speaker 17: most subjective term ever. And so all so that's part

1767
01:37:07,200 --> 01:37:09,880
Speaker 17: one of the witness intimidation statue. Part two is you

1768
01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:14,320
Speaker 17: can't cause emotional harm with the intent to or reckless

1769
01:37:14,479 --> 01:37:18,400
Speaker 17: disregard for the fact that it may interfere or obstruct

1770
01:37:18,520 --> 01:37:22,160
Speaker 17: an ongoing court proceeding. And so they get all these

1771
01:37:22,200 --> 01:37:24,080
Speaker 17: people to go in front of the grand jury, Jennifer

1772
01:37:24,120 --> 01:37:26,960
Speaker 17: McCabe and many others who I had done similar things with,

1773
01:37:27,720 --> 01:37:29,400
Speaker 17: and they all went in front of the grand jury

1774
01:37:29,800 --> 01:37:36,040
Speaker 17: and they testified that they were, you know, sad, scared, fearful,

1775
01:37:36,160 --> 01:37:38,840
Speaker 17: not a physical harm because I've never physically threatened to

1776
01:37:39,160 --> 01:37:41,920
Speaker 17: but they're just emotionally scarred from this all. So that's

1777
01:37:42,120 --> 01:37:44,920
Speaker 17: part one they've covered of the statue. Part two is

1778
01:37:45,240 --> 01:37:48,480
Speaker 17: to obstruct in a criminal proceeding. And so they prosecutors

1779
01:37:48,960 --> 01:37:50,920
Speaker 17: would ask them these kind of leading questions at the

1780
01:37:50,960 --> 01:37:53,600
Speaker 17: grand jury where there's no judge, there's no defense. You

1781
01:37:53,720 --> 01:37:55,560
Speaker 17: just hear one side of this, and the bar for

1782
01:37:55,640 --> 01:37:59,080
Speaker 17: probable causes very low. And they asked these witnesses, well,

1783
01:37:59,400 --> 01:38:01,920
Speaker 17: why did you you you know what, why do you

1784
01:38:02,200 --> 01:38:04,880
Speaker 17: Why do you think he's doing this? And they would

1785
01:38:04,920 --> 01:38:07,479
Speaker 17: all say, like it was a script. I think he

1786
01:38:07,640 --> 01:38:10,080
Speaker 17: is doing this because I am a witness in the

1787
01:38:10,120 --> 01:38:12,599
Speaker 17: Carara reecase and he does not want me to testify.

1788
01:38:12,720 --> 01:38:14,400
Speaker 11: Like they all said the exact same thing.

1789
01:38:14,760 --> 01:38:16,800
Speaker 17: And so it's just very obvious that like they found

1790
01:38:16,840 --> 01:38:18,720
Speaker 17: this kind of statute and like, this is how we're

1791
01:38:18,720 --> 01:38:20,840
Speaker 17: going to get him, This is how we're going to

1792
01:38:20,880 --> 01:38:23,599
Speaker 17: shut him up. And so you know, I was doing

1793
01:38:23,680 --> 01:38:27,040
Speaker 17: this for like six months. I held a protest in

1794
01:38:27,160 --> 01:38:30,320
Speaker 17: Canton that was actually inspired by like I went, so

1795
01:38:30,800 --> 01:38:33,880
Speaker 17: we called it a rolling rally. We met in a

1796
01:38:34,000 --> 01:38:36,559
Speaker 17: stop and shop in Norwood, a neighboring town of Canton,

1797
01:38:36,560 --> 01:38:38,840
Speaker 17: where Brian Albert lived, and we went to his new

1798
01:38:38,920 --> 01:38:42,599
Speaker 17: house in Norwood, and I announced we were coming ahead

1799
01:38:42,600 --> 01:38:44,000
Speaker 17: of time, so if they didn't want to be there,

1800
01:38:44,000 --> 01:38:47,000
Speaker 17: they didn't have to be there. And for seven minutes

1801
01:38:47,040 --> 01:38:49,720
Speaker 17: I stood outside of his residence with a megaphone and

1802
01:38:49,840 --> 01:38:53,040
Speaker 17: I just explained his involvement in the murder of John O'Keefe.

1803
01:38:53,080 --> 01:38:53,640
Speaker 11: I said, he's the.

1804
01:38:53,640 --> 01:38:58,120
Speaker 17: Homeowner, he didn't come outside, blah blah blah, And then

1805
01:38:58,160 --> 01:38:59,679
Speaker 17: we left and nothing happened.

1806
01:39:00,040 --> 01:39:00,880
Speaker 11: We went to the next house.

1807
01:39:00,920 --> 01:39:03,360
Speaker 17: We went to Michael Procter's house, next, then Jennifer McCabe's,

1808
01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:07,400
Speaker 17: then Julie Nagels. It was a nice Sunday afternoon. Women, children,

1809
01:39:07,479 --> 01:39:10,799
Speaker 17: the elderly were there. There were no calls to the police,

1810
01:39:11,080 --> 01:39:13,640
Speaker 17: no disturbing the peace calls, anything like that. It was

1811
01:39:13,720 --> 01:39:16,639
Speaker 17: a nice It was as peaceful of protests as you get.

1812
01:39:16,960 --> 01:39:20,120
Speaker 17: And honestly, what made me do something like that was,

1813
01:39:20,400 --> 01:39:22,640
Speaker 17: you know, I had seen I think it was a

1814
01:39:22,760 --> 01:39:26,120
Speaker 17: summer before, two summers before, when Roe versus Wade was overturned,

1815
01:39:27,080 --> 01:39:30,519
Speaker 17: a lot of people went outside the homes of Supreme

1816
01:39:30,560 --> 01:39:32,200
Speaker 17: Court justices like Trsus.

1817
01:39:31,960 --> 01:39:34,360
Speaker 11: Kavanaugh and others, and they protested.

1818
01:39:34,479 --> 01:39:37,080
Speaker 17: And I was controversial because it's like, you know, should

1819
01:39:37,080 --> 01:39:38,640
Speaker 17: they be allowed to do this, should they not be

1820
01:39:38,720 --> 01:39:39,320
Speaker 17: allowed to do this?

1821
01:39:39,439 --> 01:39:41,080
Speaker 11: And ultimately they were allowed to do it.

1822
01:39:41,200 --> 01:39:43,320
Speaker 17: And I said, well, if you're allowed to do it

1823
01:39:43,439 --> 01:39:46,000
Speaker 17: to a Supreme Court justice, you're certainly allowed to do

1824
01:39:46,080 --> 01:39:49,280
Speaker 17: it to Brian Albert and so and I didn't really

1825
01:39:49,360 --> 01:39:49,880
Speaker 17: have any goal.

1826
01:39:49,960 --> 01:39:51,360
Speaker 11: I wasn't trying to get them to change.

1827
01:39:51,360 --> 01:39:53,080
Speaker 17: I know they're not going to change their testimony or

1828
01:39:53,120 --> 01:39:54,920
Speaker 17: anything like that, but I just want to make my

1829
01:39:55,040 --> 01:39:56,640
Speaker 17: voice heard, like I just have the right and so

1830
01:39:56,760 --> 01:39:59,080
Speaker 17: do others. And because I'm outraged about this, I take

1831
01:39:59,120 --> 01:40:01,559
Speaker 17: the position that John Keith was murdered inside Brian Albert's

1832
01:40:01,600 --> 01:40:03,800
Speaker 17: house and that these people are framing it and it's

1833
01:40:03,800 --> 01:40:06,120
Speaker 17: in person, and that really upsets me. So I do

1834
01:40:06,280 --> 01:40:08,920
Speaker 17: the most American thing I can do, and I take

1835
01:40:08,960 --> 01:40:12,920
Speaker 17: to the streets and I peacefully protest, and I did.

1836
01:40:13,080 --> 01:40:15,960
Speaker 17: I didn't threaten anyone. I've never hurt anyone. I haven't

1837
01:40:16,080 --> 01:40:18,519
Speaker 17: like caused a bruise. All I've done is hurt feelings.

1838
01:40:18,640 --> 01:40:22,960
Speaker 17: And so I was On October eleventh, I dropped my

1839
01:40:23,040 --> 01:40:25,320
Speaker 17: kids bust my kids bust Off is like right across

1840
01:40:25,320 --> 01:40:26,960
Speaker 17: the street from our house. They were six and eight

1841
01:40:27,000 --> 01:40:29,760
Speaker 17: at the time, and get them on the bus and

1842
01:40:29,880 --> 01:40:32,680
Speaker 17: then I cross the street and you know, their bus

1843
01:40:32,840 --> 01:40:35,240
Speaker 17: stops at the next house, couple houses away, and so

1844
01:40:35,280 --> 01:40:38,080
Speaker 17: they could definitely see this happening. A truck pulls up

1845
01:40:38,080 --> 01:40:39,840
Speaker 17: where I'm trying to go into my driveway, walk up

1846
01:40:39,880 --> 01:40:41,960
Speaker 17: the driveway and a guy gets out and he's got

1847
01:40:42,040 --> 01:40:43,720
Speaker 17: a vest on and he's like hey.

1848
01:40:44,280 --> 01:40:46,280
Speaker 11: I'm like, can I help you? And he's like, yeah,

1849
01:40:46,560 --> 01:40:47,280
Speaker 11: you're under arrest.

1850
01:40:47,560 --> 01:40:49,920
Speaker 17: We got a bunch of warrants and put your hands

1851
01:40:50,120 --> 01:40:51,960
Speaker 17: and he starts putting me in cuffs, and I'm like,

1852
01:40:52,040 --> 01:40:52,880
Speaker 17: what is happening?

1853
01:40:52,920 --> 01:40:53,840
Speaker 11: What is going on right now?

1854
01:40:53,960 --> 01:40:54,000
Speaker 6: What?

1855
01:40:54,280 --> 01:40:56,400
Speaker 11: And then all of a sudden, six other on mark

1856
01:40:56,439 --> 01:40:58,240
Speaker 11: cars pull up and one of.

1857
01:40:58,280 --> 01:41:00,680
Speaker 17: Them pops out and starts reading my rights, and it's

1858
01:41:00,720 --> 01:41:04,559
Speaker 17: this guy named Brian Tully. And Brian Tully is the lead,

1859
01:41:04,680 --> 01:41:10,160
Speaker 17: the head detective lieutenant at the State Police Norfolk County Unit,

1860
01:41:10,280 --> 01:41:12,960
Speaker 17: and so he's like the head honcho of the Camera

1861
01:41:13,040 --> 01:41:13,840
Speaker 17: Reid investigation.

1862
01:41:13,960 --> 01:41:15,400
Speaker 11: He signs all the paperwork, et cetera.

1863
01:41:15,800 --> 01:41:18,479
Speaker 17: So I I'm like, I've been extremely critical of this

1864
01:41:18,560 --> 01:41:20,680
Speaker 17: guy and accused him of being involved in the cover

1865
01:41:20,800 --> 01:41:24,000
Speaker 17: up of John O'Keeffe's murder. And so the guy that

1866
01:41:24,200 --> 01:41:27,280
Speaker 17: I'm accusing of being involved in the police cover up

1867
01:41:27,320 --> 01:41:30,200
Speaker 17: of a murder is now at my house arresting me

1868
01:41:30,960 --> 01:41:34,160
Speaker 17: for accusing for doing exactly what I did accusing this

1869
01:41:34,240 --> 01:41:37,760
Speaker 17: guy and being nefarious, thus proving my point here, Like

1870
01:41:37,920 --> 01:41:40,400
Speaker 17: they're like the guy that's accusing them of cover up

1871
01:41:40,400 --> 01:41:43,439
Speaker 17: and having all this influence and getting people outraged about this.

1872
01:41:43,960 --> 01:41:46,200
Speaker 11: You're now at his house arresting him.

1873
01:41:46,520 --> 01:41:50,360
Speaker 17: They had a search warrant for my house, and which

1874
01:41:50,400 --> 01:41:53,160
Speaker 17: I thought was ironic because they didn't get a search

1875
01:41:53,200 --> 01:41:54,400
Speaker 17: warrant for Brian Albert.

1876
01:41:54,120 --> 01:41:56,280
Speaker 4: Scha for the house where the dead body was found.

1877
01:41:56,640 --> 01:41:56,840
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1878
01:41:56,880 --> 01:41:59,920
Speaker 11: I jokingly say this, but it's it's absurd.

1879
01:42:00,320 --> 01:42:02,000
Speaker 17: I say I should have if I threw a dead

1880
01:42:02,080 --> 01:42:04,479
Speaker 17: cop on my yard, they would leave me alone, because

1881
01:42:04,479 --> 01:42:06,960
Speaker 17: that's like kryptonite to the Massachusetts State Police. They will

1882
01:42:07,000 --> 01:42:08,720
Speaker 17: just not They will just leave you alone if there's

1883
01:42:08,760 --> 01:42:10,479
Speaker 17: a dead cop on the yard and blame someone else.

1884
01:42:13,240 --> 01:42:16,479
Speaker 4: I'm glad you mentioned your conservative politics because it's like

1885
01:42:16,960 --> 01:42:21,960
Speaker 4: ow that it goes to the role of the importance

1886
01:42:22,000 --> 01:42:24,680
Speaker 4: of the principle of press freedom. Our viewers will know

1887
01:42:24,880 --> 01:42:28,360
Speaker 4: I'm not on the right, but your viewers, if they're

1888
01:42:28,360 --> 01:42:30,800
Speaker 4: watching this, may not know that. But you know, press

1889
01:42:30,840 --> 01:42:34,559
Speaker 4: freedom should not just apply to you, to your political allies.

1890
01:42:34,840 --> 01:42:37,719
Speaker 4: And also, I think it's important to know that people

1891
01:42:37,800 --> 01:42:41,280
Speaker 4: need to understand that press freedom applies to everybody in

1892
01:42:41,439 --> 01:42:45,760
Speaker 4: the country. It is not limited just to journalists. Because

1893
01:42:45,880 --> 01:42:49,799
Speaker 4: think about that. If you had to limit it to journalists,

1894
01:42:49,840 --> 01:42:53,439
Speaker 4: then some government agency would then have to credential who's

1895
01:42:53,479 --> 01:42:55,719
Speaker 4: a journalist and would say, okay, well you're a journalist

1896
01:42:55,840 --> 01:42:58,400
Speaker 4: and you're not, so you get First Amendment and you don't.

1897
01:42:58,840 --> 01:43:01,920
Speaker 4: So for people who would say he's he's doing satire here,

1898
01:43:02,040 --> 01:43:03,920
Speaker 4: or he's an activist because he's got a bullhorn in

1899
01:43:03,960 --> 01:43:06,519
Speaker 4: front of this cops house, and it actually doesn't matter,

1900
01:43:07,000 --> 01:43:10,519
Speaker 4: like freedom of the press applies to all people who

1901
01:43:10,560 --> 01:43:15,240
Speaker 4: are here in the United States and so, and it's

1902
01:43:15,520 --> 01:43:17,720
Speaker 4: not just whether you agree with someone or not, it's

1903
01:43:17,760 --> 01:43:20,000
Speaker 4: it particularly important if you don't agree with them, you

1904
01:43:20,120 --> 01:43:23,320
Speaker 4: stand up for their their press freedom rights. I would

1905
01:43:23,880 --> 01:43:26,960
Speaker 4: most of the things that you talked about here are

1906
01:43:27,400 --> 01:43:31,000
Speaker 4: covered in this you know, forty five minute roughly video

1907
01:43:31,040 --> 01:43:34,000
Speaker 4: that you have posted on your Twitter feed, which is

1908
01:43:34,200 --> 01:43:36,960
Speaker 4: is it doctor turtle Boy. What's what's your Twitter handle.

1909
01:43:37,360 --> 01:43:38,479
Speaker 11: At doctor turtle Boy.

1910
01:43:38,840 --> 01:43:40,599
Speaker 4: So people should go check that out. But I wanted

1911
01:43:40,600 --> 01:43:43,320
Speaker 4: to play just one, one little clip of it here

1912
01:43:44,120 --> 01:43:49,000
Speaker 4: so people can get a flavor of the the actual

1913
01:43:49,400 --> 01:43:53,519
Speaker 4: language that prosecutors have been using and compare that to

1914
01:43:54,080 --> 01:43:56,720
Speaker 4: you know, the reality of what you were doing. So

1915
01:43:56,840 --> 01:43:58,599
Speaker 4: let's let's roll this clip here.

1916
01:43:59,360 --> 01:44:02,759
Speaker 17: Actual video shows I was talking about returning to Canton

1917
01:44:03,200 --> 01:44:05,640
Speaker 17: to see a d BW worker who was giving me

1918
01:44:05,720 --> 01:44:07,280
Speaker 17: the run around ninety four.

1919
01:44:07,520 --> 01:44:08,639
Speaker 8: Throwboarding turnst the Canton.

1920
01:44:08,840 --> 01:44:10,880
Speaker 12: This is a video posted shortly after Karen visited Pups

1921
01:44:10,880 --> 01:44:11,360
Speaker 12: of Weaknesses.

1922
01:44:11,800 --> 01:44:13,120
Speaker 1: This is not my last trips Canton.

1923
01:44:13,320 --> 01:44:13,960
Speaker 5: I will be back.

1924
01:44:14,960 --> 01:44:15,439
Speaker 1: I'll be back.

1925
01:44:15,520 --> 01:44:18,040
Speaker 11: Get used to this the staple part me, this staple.

1926
01:44:18,080 --> 01:44:18,880
Speaker 1: Think I'm fucking around.

1927
01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:19,960
Speaker 9: We haven't seen the last thing.

1928
01:44:20,120 --> 01:44:22,200
Speaker 8: Okay used to one nineteen to one.

1929
01:44:22,960 --> 01:44:26,720
Speaker 17: They combined sentences from two different clips. I will be

1930
01:44:26,880 --> 01:44:31,400
Speaker 17: back was encouraging people not to be afraid of the mcalberts.

1931
01:44:31,880 --> 01:44:33,800
Speaker 17: This is not my last trip to Canton. I will

1932
01:44:33,920 --> 01:44:37,000
Speaker 17: be back, And more and more, I think people are

1933
01:44:37,080 --> 01:44:39,360
Speaker 17: getting Like a year or so ago, people didn't want

1934
01:44:39,360 --> 01:44:41,960
Speaker 17: to cooperate with Karen reid defense team because they're like, yeah,

1935
01:44:42,000 --> 01:44:44,040
Speaker 17: it's easy to keep my head down and you know

1936
01:44:44,120 --> 01:44:48,160
Speaker 17: whatever and keep a low profile. But now, you know,

1937
01:44:48,760 --> 01:44:50,639
Speaker 17: now they're like, fuck it. You know, We've made people

1938
01:44:50,720 --> 01:44:52,120
Speaker 17: realize that you don't have nothing to be afraid of.

1939
01:44:52,720 --> 01:44:55,280
Speaker 17: The big bad monster's not gonna bite you. We newted

1940
01:44:55,280 --> 01:44:57,200
Speaker 17: their ass. They can't do anything and not so tough anymore,

1941
01:44:57,240 --> 01:44:57,479
Speaker 17: are they?

1942
01:44:57,720 --> 01:44:59,000
Speaker 1: This is not my last trips Canton.

1943
01:44:59,240 --> 01:44:59,840
Speaker 8: I will be back.

1944
01:45:00,840 --> 01:45:01,360
Speaker 1: I'll be back.

1945
01:45:01,400 --> 01:45:03,920
Speaker 11: Get used to this, people say, partly to see the

1946
01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:04,800
Speaker 11: same fucking around.

1947
01:45:04,880 --> 01:45:08,080
Speaker 5: You haven't seen the last name one nineteen one.

1948
01:45:09,000 --> 01:45:11,720
Speaker 11: These people think I'm fucking around. You haven't seen the

1949
01:45:11,800 --> 01:45:13,880
Speaker 11: last of me. Get used to it, Get used to it.

1950
01:45:14,200 --> 01:45:16,559
Speaker 17: But the Commonwealth makes it seem like I'm talking about

1951
01:45:16,640 --> 01:45:21,000
Speaker 17: harassing to mcalverts, which obviously sounds bad, but this was

1952
01:45:21,120 --> 01:45:26,240
Speaker 17: intentionally deceptive. I was actually referring to a DPW employee

1953
01:45:26,720 --> 01:45:29,400
Speaker 17: who was giving me the run around, and I said

1954
01:45:29,760 --> 01:45:32,400
Speaker 17: that I will be back to get information on who

1955
01:45:32,560 --> 01:45:35,559
Speaker 17: plowed Fairview Road the night that John O'Keefe was killed.

1956
01:45:35,920 --> 01:45:38,479
Speaker 1: I can, I can leave a message and I'll get

1957
01:45:38,479 --> 01:45:39,920
Speaker 1: it to him the field right now.

1958
01:45:41,600 --> 01:45:42,880
Speaker 17: She goes, how do I spell the last name?

1959
01:45:42,880 --> 01:45:43,040
Speaker 14: Stir.

1960
01:45:43,120 --> 01:45:46,719
Speaker 17: She had already written out my first name and spelled

1961
01:45:46,760 --> 01:45:48,400
Speaker 17: it correctly. She knows who I am. She didn't have

1962
01:45:48,439 --> 01:45:49,720
Speaker 17: to ask my first name. She didn't even have to

1963
01:45:49,720 --> 01:45:50,920
Speaker 17: ask what my last name was. She just asked how

1964
01:45:50,920 --> 01:45:52,800
Speaker 17: to spell it. She'd already spelled my name, so she

1965
01:45:52,960 --> 01:45:55,200
Speaker 17: knows who I am. At this point people are messaging

1966
01:45:55,240 --> 01:45:57,120
Speaker 17: me now and they're saying that she is a she

1967
01:45:57,280 --> 01:46:00,800
Speaker 17: is a friend. She lives in tim Alberts, n And

1968
01:46:00,880 --> 01:46:02,479
Speaker 17: she is best friends with the Week's Girls, that is

1969
01:46:02,560 --> 01:46:05,320
Speaker 17: mckaeb's sisters. So this is what we're dealing with here.

1970
01:46:05,360 --> 01:46:07,960
Speaker 17: This is the home cooking. So I'll be back, miss uh,

1971
01:46:09,040 --> 01:46:10,960
Speaker 17: miss boys regular, I'll be back. You haven't seen the

1972
01:46:11,040 --> 01:46:13,439
Speaker 17: last to me because he never called while she never

1973
01:46:13,479 --> 01:46:16,000
Speaker 17: called me today, Try to never called me. If you

1974
01:46:16,080 --> 01:46:18,479
Speaker 17: think you're gonna get rid of me that easily, you're

1975
01:46:18,600 --> 01:46:23,640
Speaker 17: badly mistaken. I will literally sit there all day, all day, like, well,

1976
01:46:23,640 --> 01:46:25,760
Speaker 17: what are Chinese? I'll make it. I'll make a day

1977
01:46:25,760 --> 01:46:27,840
Speaker 17: of it. I'll just sit there all freaking day because

1978
01:46:27,880 --> 01:46:30,320
Speaker 17: he's got to come back sometime. I'll be like, I've

1979
01:46:30,360 --> 01:46:32,880
Speaker 17: unfinished business. We didn't see Michael morrisey today. I'll be back.

1980
01:46:33,320 --> 01:46:35,280
Speaker 17: They get used to this, like these people think I'm

1981
01:46:35,280 --> 01:46:36,880
Speaker 17: fucking around, like I'm missed the internet guy, like I'm

1982
01:46:36,880 --> 01:46:38,519
Speaker 17: gonna sit here and I'm gonna write blogs all day

1983
01:46:38,520 --> 01:46:40,600
Speaker 17: and that it's okay he's writing blogs and just ignore whatever. No, no, no,

1984
01:46:41,040 --> 01:46:42,679
Speaker 17: I live an hour away. It's not I got alexus

1985
01:46:42,720 --> 01:46:45,639
Speaker 17: now it's not a problem. Good it's got great mileage

1986
01:46:45,920 --> 01:46:47,320
Speaker 17: and a good engine. I'll be there in an hour,

1987
01:46:47,560 --> 01:46:50,160
Speaker 17: no problem, Like I'll get used to it.

1988
01:46:50,600 --> 01:46:53,080
Speaker 4: So bring us up to speed on where these various

1989
01:46:53,160 --> 01:46:55,479
Speaker 4: cases are. So we just played this clip of this

1990
01:46:55,600 --> 01:46:59,120
Speaker 4: clerk who kind of blew you off, and you said

1991
01:46:59,160 --> 01:47:02,120
Speaker 4: on your live stream, you know, I'll be back because

1992
01:47:02,160 --> 01:47:05,519
Speaker 4: I want I need these documents, which is the essence

1993
01:47:05,560 --> 01:47:08,639
Speaker 4: of journalism. Like if journalism was asking for a document

1994
01:47:09,280 --> 01:47:12,240
Speaker 4: and being blown off and then moving on, none of

1995
01:47:12,320 --> 01:47:14,800
Speaker 4: us would ever get to the bottom of anything. So

1996
01:47:14,960 --> 01:47:18,640
Speaker 4: you you ask after the document, you're told forget it.

1997
01:47:19,280 --> 01:47:21,280
Speaker 4: You're like, I'll be back for this document. Like that's

1998
01:47:21,320 --> 01:47:23,920
Speaker 4: the essence of investigative journalism. Everything else that you were

1999
01:47:23,960 --> 01:47:28,760
Speaker 4: describing asking people questions, you know, having a hunch, like

2000
01:47:28,840 --> 01:47:32,360
Speaker 4: you believed X about this person, You're asking them about that,

2001
01:47:32,560 --> 01:47:36,000
Speaker 4: Like this is this is the basics of journalism. So

2002
01:47:36,960 --> 01:47:39,080
Speaker 4: I know that you were recently acquitted of one set

2003
01:47:39,160 --> 01:47:42,760
Speaker 4: of charges, talk about those, But then also like how

2004
01:47:42,840 --> 01:47:45,240
Speaker 4: did you wind up? I understand you did what sixty days?

2005
01:47:45,960 --> 01:47:49,639
Speaker 4: Sixty days it's right behind bars, yep. Or you're reporting

2006
01:47:49,680 --> 01:47:52,640
Speaker 4: on this case, So what was that for and what

2007
01:47:53,000 --> 01:47:54,960
Speaker 4: talk about the charges that you're still facing.

2008
01:47:56,120 --> 01:47:59,720
Speaker 17: So I've had six of them. We had a motion

2009
01:47:59,840 --> 01:48:02,160
Speaker 17: of the Smiths in March, and six of them ended

2010
01:48:02,240 --> 01:48:06,519
Speaker 17: up getting dismissed. Against the two cops, Buchennick and Proctor.

2011
01:48:06,640 --> 01:48:09,759
Speaker 17: They were both dismissed just because it's absolutely absurd, absolutely

2012
01:48:09,760 --> 01:48:12,920
Speaker 17: absurd that police officers have the audacity, who have guns

2013
01:48:12,960 --> 01:48:15,120
Speaker 17: and badges and all the power in the world, to

2014
01:48:15,200 --> 01:48:17,400
Speaker 17: say that they're intimidated by a journalist. I mean, it

2015
01:48:17,680 --> 01:48:20,360
Speaker 17: looks ridiculous. So I had two of those taken away.

2016
01:48:20,720 --> 01:48:23,759
Speaker 17: There was three conspiracy charges that were taken away because

2017
01:48:23,800 --> 01:48:27,360
Speaker 17: I had reported that Jennifer McCabe was at the Proctor's house.

2018
01:48:27,479 --> 01:48:29,880
Speaker 17: I posted a picture of her car parked outside there

2019
01:48:30,000 --> 01:48:32,880
Speaker 17: when the district attorney had said that she didn't know

2020
01:48:33,080 --> 01:48:34,000
Speaker 17: the Proctor family.

2021
01:48:34,560 --> 01:48:36,400
Speaker 11: And the way I was able to.

2022
01:48:36,439 --> 01:48:39,960
Speaker 17: Prove it was her car was I asked my followers,

2023
01:48:40,000 --> 01:48:42,200
Speaker 17: can somebody run a license plate for me and just

2024
01:48:42,360 --> 01:48:42,720
Speaker 17: kind of run.

2025
01:48:42,880 --> 01:48:44,200
Speaker 11: I wanted to make sure it was her car. It

2026
01:48:44,240 --> 01:48:44,840
Speaker 11: looked like her car.

2027
01:48:44,880 --> 01:48:46,640
Speaker 17: I was pretty sure is her car, But being a

2028
01:48:46,720 --> 01:48:48,280
Speaker 17: journalist and all I want to make I want to

2029
01:48:48,320 --> 01:48:50,160
Speaker 17: double check. I don't want it to fame anyone. So

2030
01:48:51,640 --> 01:48:54,320
Speaker 17: somebody volunteered to run a license plate for me, and

2031
01:48:54,479 --> 01:48:57,800
Speaker 17: they did, and they came back McCabe and I said, okay,

2032
01:48:57,880 --> 01:49:00,280
Speaker 17: thank you, and I wrote a story about it. And

2033
01:49:00,360 --> 01:49:03,840
Speaker 17: they called that conspiracy to commit witness intimidation, and both

2034
01:49:03,880 --> 01:49:07,000
Speaker 17: the person who ran the license plate and me were

2035
01:49:07,280 --> 01:49:10,640
Speaker 17: charged with conspiracy to commit witness intimidation, three charges of it,

2036
01:49:10,880 --> 01:49:13,559
Speaker 17: which each carried ten years in jail. So luckily those

2037
01:49:13,600 --> 01:49:16,840
Speaker 17: three were dismissed because they were just outrageous, but I

2038
01:49:16,960 --> 01:49:19,759
Speaker 17: still had the six. I have six more felony witness

2039
01:49:19,760 --> 01:49:24,200
Speaker 17: intimidation charges which are ten years each, four picketing charges,

2040
01:49:24,720 --> 01:49:27,720
Speaker 17: and I have since picked up two more charges of

2041
01:49:27,800 --> 01:49:30,960
Speaker 17: witness intimidation, or what we call window intimidation. I was

2042
01:49:31,880 --> 01:49:36,080
Speaker 17: outside Chris Albert's pizza shop, and I didn't know that

2043
01:49:36,280 --> 01:49:39,840
Speaker 17: I was being audio recorded, and we had I had

2044
01:49:39,880 --> 01:49:43,640
Speaker 17: about five sangrias that night, and there was a there

2045
01:49:43,720 --> 01:49:45,920
Speaker 17: was a camera in the window that was, you know,

2046
01:49:46,280 --> 01:49:48,960
Speaker 17: obviously picking up what was happening outside, at least the video.

2047
01:49:49,080 --> 01:49:51,680
Speaker 17: You can't intercept audio in Massachusetts because it's a two

2048
01:49:51,720 --> 01:49:54,040
Speaker 17: party consense state. So I was with a buddy and

2049
01:49:54,080 --> 01:49:55,760
Speaker 17: we started doing like an act. It was like a

2050
01:49:55,800 --> 01:49:59,599
Speaker 17: comedy act, and they called it witness intimidation. He wasn't

2051
01:49:59,640 --> 01:50:02,840
Speaker 17: there and it was literally in front of an empty window.

2052
01:50:03,160 --> 01:50:05,560
Speaker 17: So I picked up two more charges for that, and

2053
01:50:05,680 --> 01:50:08,640
Speaker 17: then I also picked up the thing that sent me

2054
01:50:08,760 --> 01:50:12,640
Speaker 17: to jail. So on October eleventh, I'm arrested for the

2055
01:50:12,680 --> 01:50:15,439
Speaker 17: first time, and they set bail, and if you are

2056
01:50:15,560 --> 01:50:17,880
Speaker 17: charged with a new crime while you're out on bail,

2057
01:50:18,320 --> 01:50:20,519
Speaker 17: you can have your bail revoked and go to jail

2058
01:50:20,600 --> 01:50:22,800
Speaker 17: without ever being convicted of a crime.

2059
01:50:23,360 --> 01:50:26,160
Speaker 11: And so it's very scary. You're just constantly on thin ice.

2060
01:50:26,360 --> 01:50:27,360
Speaker 1: And so.

2061
01:50:29,040 --> 01:50:31,920
Speaker 17: I was seeing some woman, not even seeing her like

2062
01:50:32,000 --> 01:50:35,000
Speaker 17: I was just in a sexual relationship with some woman

2063
01:50:35,080 --> 01:50:37,439
Speaker 17: who was a free kir and Reed supporter who had

2064
01:50:37,520 --> 01:50:40,120
Speaker 17: just you know, kind of fangirled me, and I went

2065
01:50:40,200 --> 01:50:42,400
Speaker 17: along with it. I would go over there Fridays. It

2066
01:50:42,520 --> 01:50:45,920
Speaker 17: was nothing serious. Long story short. She turned out to

2067
01:50:45,960 --> 01:50:49,360
Speaker 17: be a psychopath. She pretended to be pregnant, pretended to

2068
01:50:50,240 --> 01:50:52,680
Speaker 17: have a couple abortions a couple times just to kind

2069
01:50:52,720 --> 01:50:56,360
Speaker 17: of mess with me and I Finally, after I realized

2070
01:50:56,360 --> 01:50:59,040
Speaker 17: there was no baby, I ended things with her. We

2071
01:50:59,160 --> 01:51:02,080
Speaker 17: have since gotten her phone extraction, and I've seen that

2072
01:51:02,560 --> 01:51:05,759
Speaker 17: on December ninth, she immediately got she was so upset

2073
01:51:06,000 --> 01:51:10,519
Speaker 17: about this breakup or whatever, that she contacted enemies, people

2074
01:51:10,560 --> 01:51:13,120
Speaker 17: who are dedicated to just destroying me, who got her

2075
01:51:13,160 --> 01:51:16,000
Speaker 17: in touch with Brian Tully from the State Police and

2076
01:51:16,240 --> 01:51:19,640
Speaker 17: the Special Prosecutor Ken Mellow, And within days she was

2077
01:51:19,680 --> 01:51:24,479
Speaker 17: speaking with them, and unbeknownst to me, Brian Kelly and her,

2078
01:51:24,800 --> 01:51:29,400
Speaker 17: according to her phone data, kind of conspired to He

2079
01:51:29,560 --> 01:51:32,800
Speaker 17: sent her a grand jury summons, a fake grand jury

2080
01:51:32,840 --> 01:51:36,160
Speaker 17: summons on December twenty second. We now know that there

2081
01:51:36,240 --> 01:51:38,560
Speaker 17: was no grand jury being held in regard to this,

2082
01:51:39,080 --> 01:51:42,800
Speaker 17: and he told her to send me the grand jury

2083
01:51:42,840 --> 01:51:45,760
Speaker 17: summons and say we need to talk about this, and

2084
01:51:45,920 --> 01:51:48,639
Speaker 17: she did, and so on December twenty second, she sends

2085
01:51:48,680 --> 01:51:52,160
Speaker 17: it to me, and I'm like, how does Brian Tully

2086
01:51:52,280 --> 01:51:53,160
Speaker 17: know who you are?

2087
01:51:53,560 --> 01:51:55,360
Speaker 11: Like what is happening?

2088
01:51:55,560 --> 01:51:57,240
Speaker 17: And she kind of confessed to me that I was

2089
01:51:57,320 --> 01:52:00,240
Speaker 17: so mad, and I was mad at you, and I

2090
01:52:00,360 --> 01:52:02,240
Speaker 17: just was I want to get back at you, and

2091
01:52:02,320 --> 01:52:03,960
Speaker 17: now it's gone too far and now I have to

2092
01:52:04,080 --> 01:52:06,200
Speaker 17: testify and I don't know what to do, and I

2093
01:52:06,280 --> 01:52:08,280
Speaker 17: need help and I need a lawyer. And this and that,

2094
01:52:08,840 --> 01:52:11,040
Speaker 17: and I fell bad for her, and I'm like, Okay,

2095
01:52:11,240 --> 01:52:15,040
Speaker 17: even though you've like betrayed me, I still feel bad

2096
01:52:15,080 --> 01:52:17,240
Speaker 17: for you, and I'd like to help you out, get

2097
01:52:17,280 --> 01:52:20,120
Speaker 17: you out of this jam. And against the advice of

2098
01:52:20,240 --> 01:52:24,439
Speaker 17: my attorney, I went to her house on December twenty third,

2099
01:52:24,880 --> 01:52:28,040
Speaker 17: because she said she wanted to like show me all

2100
01:52:28,120 --> 01:52:30,840
Speaker 17: of her communications with the police and show how they

2101
01:52:30,880 --> 01:52:32,920
Speaker 17: were setting me up. And I thought this could help me,

2102
01:52:33,120 --> 01:52:35,000
Speaker 17: you know. So I went to her, but I didn't

2103
01:52:35,000 --> 01:52:36,600
Speaker 17: want to go in her apartment, and she's got like

2104
01:52:36,640 --> 01:52:40,599
Speaker 17: a common area in her apartment building. So we met

2105
01:52:40,680 --> 01:52:44,439
Speaker 17: there for an hour or two, and unbeknownst to me

2106
01:52:45,200 --> 01:52:47,040
Speaker 17: now that we have her phone data and we've seen

2107
01:52:47,080 --> 01:52:49,840
Speaker 17: the police report, she went into the bathroom in the

2108
01:52:49,880 --> 01:52:52,640
Speaker 17: common area and she called them and she said that

2109
01:52:52,760 --> 01:52:55,360
Speaker 17: I have him here, and she kept her phone on

2110
01:52:56,000 --> 01:53:00,519
Speaker 17: and she attempted to record our conversation in this common area,

2111
01:53:01,120 --> 01:53:05,040
Speaker 17: and they urged her to get them back. There's cameras

2112
01:53:05,080 --> 01:53:07,599
Speaker 17: in the common area, and so she can't lie about

2113
01:53:07,680 --> 01:53:09,439
Speaker 17: me in there. So she's there, like get them back

2114
01:53:09,520 --> 01:53:14,519
Speaker 17: in your apartment, and so she had her son caller

2115
01:53:15,240 --> 01:53:17,360
Speaker 17: and say, Mom, come back her son was like twelve

2116
01:53:17,400 --> 01:53:19,040
Speaker 17: at the time. I need you to come back in here.

2117
01:53:19,120 --> 01:53:20,479
Speaker 17: She's like, okay, I have to go back in there.

2118
01:53:20,520 --> 01:53:22,720
Speaker 17: Can we just go in my apartment? And I said sure.

2119
01:53:23,280 --> 01:53:25,400
Speaker 17: And the second I walked into her apartment, I was

2120
01:53:25,439 --> 01:53:28,720
Speaker 17: going to jail, like I now know that, and so

2121
01:53:28,880 --> 01:53:32,040
Speaker 17: she showed me everything in there. And then around two am,

2122
01:53:32,840 --> 01:53:35,200
Speaker 17: I'm like, I have to go home. It's Christmas Eve morning.

2123
01:53:35,280 --> 01:53:36,599
Speaker 11: Now I have to leave.

2124
01:53:36,760 --> 01:53:39,640
Speaker 17: And she's like, you can't leave me, and I said, oh,

2125
01:53:39,680 --> 01:53:42,280
Speaker 17: I have to go home. It's Christmas Eve. And she

2126
01:53:42,640 --> 01:53:45,600
Speaker 17: then took the abortion pill in front of me and

2127
01:53:46,240 --> 01:53:47,920
Speaker 17: she's like, now you can't leave. I'm going to be

2128
01:53:47,920 --> 01:53:50,160
Speaker 17: in pain, and you can't leave me. I said, you're

2129
01:53:50,200 --> 01:53:53,000
Speaker 17: not pregnant. Stop it, and she was just using it

2130
01:53:53,080 --> 01:53:55,080
Speaker 17: as a way to keep me there. And then she

2131
01:53:55,640 --> 01:53:58,200
Speaker 17: woke up her four kids who are two, three, five,

2132
01:53:58,320 --> 01:54:01,040
Speaker 17: and twelve, and start like three in the morning and

2133
01:54:01,120 --> 01:54:03,439
Speaker 17: starts taking their jackets out of the closet and said,

2134
01:54:03,800 --> 01:54:06,799
Speaker 17: if you leave, I'm taking my kids and I'm driving

2135
01:54:06,840 --> 01:54:09,400
Speaker 17: to your house and holding an hour away and I'm

2136
01:54:09,479 --> 01:54:12,720
Speaker 17: gonna bleed out in your driveway and you can't leave me.

2137
01:54:12,840 --> 01:54:13,400
Speaker 11: You can't do this.

2138
01:54:13,640 --> 01:54:16,720
Speaker 17: And the five year old comes out and he looked horrified.

2139
01:54:17,320 --> 01:54:19,200
Speaker 17: And I'm now taping this. I tell her, I'm taping

2140
01:54:19,240 --> 01:54:21,240
Speaker 17: this for my own safety. This is getting out of control.

2141
01:54:21,720 --> 01:54:26,479
Speaker 17: And I said, okay, I will put the boy back

2142
01:54:26,479 --> 01:54:29,240
Speaker 17: to bed, please. I'm gonna sit here, and I don't

2143
01:54:29,280 --> 01:54:31,240
Speaker 17: want to endanger these kids. I'm gonna sit here and

2144
01:54:31,360 --> 01:54:33,800
Speaker 17: wait for her to fall asleep. So she falls asleep.

2145
01:54:33,880 --> 01:54:34,520
Speaker 17: At five am.

2146
01:54:35,080 --> 01:54:35,480
Speaker 5: I leave.

2147
01:54:36,080 --> 01:54:38,560
Speaker 17: I'm so tired that I fall asleep beyond the wheel

2148
01:54:38,560 --> 01:54:40,400
Speaker 17: of my car on the way home and I crash

2149
01:54:40,800 --> 01:54:41,480
Speaker 17: on the highway.

2150
01:54:41,800 --> 01:54:44,320
Speaker 11: I'm woking up after crashing into a guardrail.

2151
01:54:44,480 --> 01:54:47,200
Speaker 17: Luckily, I'm able to make it home on Christmas Eve,

2152
01:54:47,640 --> 01:54:49,640
Speaker 17: but I'm all messed up from this and I'm like,

2153
01:54:49,760 --> 01:54:52,120
Speaker 17: I'm on no sleep. And we go to my sister's

2154
01:54:52,160 --> 01:54:54,720
Speaker 17: house on Christmas Eve for like lunch, and then I

2155
01:54:54,760 --> 01:54:56,600
Speaker 17: get a call from the Holding police and they say,

2156
01:54:57,480 --> 01:54:59,720
Speaker 17: we just visited your house. We have something for you

2157
01:55:00,120 --> 01:55:03,040
Speaker 17: we need to give you. Unbeknownst to me, I'm tipped

2158
01:55:03,080 --> 01:55:05,320
Speaker 17: off an hour later by a Holding firefighter who says,

2159
01:55:05,400 --> 01:55:07,880
Speaker 17: don't go home. The police just came to your house

2160
01:55:07,920 --> 01:55:09,880
Speaker 17: with a warrant for your arrest. I said what for,

2161
01:55:10,520 --> 01:55:13,640
Speaker 17: and they said an assault and battery in Medfield. There's

2162
01:55:13,640 --> 01:55:16,000
Speaker 17: a warrant out for your arrest. And I'm like, oh

2163
01:55:16,080 --> 01:55:19,080
Speaker 17: my god, she said that I hit her. Holy shit.

2164
01:55:19,280 --> 01:55:23,520
Speaker 17: And you know that's automatic arrest in Massachusetts, like whenever

2165
01:55:23,560 --> 01:55:26,080
Speaker 17: there's a domestic violence and basically whoever gets to the

2166
01:55:26,160 --> 01:55:29,520
Speaker 17: cops first gets to have the other person arrested and

2167
01:55:29,720 --> 01:55:32,600
Speaker 17: no marks, no nothing like that. As it turns out,

2168
01:55:32,680 --> 01:55:36,200
Speaker 17: she has done this to four other men, including her father.

2169
01:55:36,360 --> 01:55:38,240
Speaker 17: She had her father arrested for assault and battery.

2170
01:55:38,600 --> 01:55:39,280
Speaker 11: This is what she does.

2171
01:55:39,360 --> 01:55:42,400
Speaker 17: She gets people arrested, then she gets orders on them,

2172
01:55:42,600 --> 01:55:44,880
Speaker 17: and then she has them arrested for violating the order.

2173
01:55:45,680 --> 01:55:50,000
Speaker 17: So I am I'm a fugitive on Christmas, and I

2174
01:55:50,120 --> 01:55:52,800
Speaker 17: make plans with my attorney on December twenty sixth, which

2175
01:55:52,880 --> 01:55:55,480
Speaker 17: is my birthday, to We're going to go to the

2176
01:55:55,560 --> 01:55:58,120
Speaker 17: courthouse quietly, get in there and get out.

2177
01:55:58,280 --> 01:55:58,800
Speaker 11: That's the goal.

2178
01:55:59,080 --> 01:56:01,120
Speaker 17: No media, nothing thing, just get in and get out.

2179
01:56:01,320 --> 01:56:03,160
Speaker 17: So we go to the courthouse at nine am on

2180
01:56:03,360 --> 01:56:06,320
Speaker 17: December twenty sixth. Brian Tully's standing on the series of

2181
01:56:06,360 --> 01:56:09,200
Speaker 17: the courthouse with the Medfield Police. There's waiting to arrest

2182
01:56:09,280 --> 01:56:11,000
Speaker 17: me when I go in there, so that's not an option.

2183
01:56:11,400 --> 01:56:13,760
Speaker 17: My lawyer says, go turn yourself into midfield PD.

2184
01:56:14,480 --> 01:56:14,680
Speaker 1: I do.

2185
01:56:15,600 --> 01:56:16,720
Speaker 11: There's a big hubba baloo.

2186
01:56:16,840 --> 01:56:20,480
Speaker 17: Media comes down there, and you know, I am just

2187
01:56:20,680 --> 01:56:23,440
Speaker 17: kind of praying, like, please don't let my bail get revoked.

2188
01:56:23,680 --> 01:56:25,760
Speaker 17: We play the tape that I recorded of her like

2189
01:56:25,880 --> 01:56:28,640
Speaker 17: threatening to take her kids, but there's no context to it,

2190
01:56:28,840 --> 01:56:31,440
Speaker 17: and quite frankly, it sounds like a woman in distress.

2191
01:56:31,440 --> 01:56:33,520
Speaker 17: At least that's how the judge must have taken it.

2192
01:56:34,240 --> 01:56:37,920
Speaker 17: Because I am He revokes my bail for ninety days.

2193
01:56:38,040 --> 01:56:40,000
Speaker 17: We later get that reduced to sixty because it turns

2194
01:56:40,000 --> 01:56:43,560
Speaker 17: out he's not allowed to do that, and I am shelsha.

2195
01:56:43,680 --> 01:56:46,480
Speaker 17: I'm like literally in shock because here I am going

2196
01:56:46,600 --> 01:56:50,400
Speaker 17: to jail and no warning, Like I'm like I could

2197
01:56:50,480 --> 01:56:51,120
Speaker 17: I've never met.

2198
01:56:51,160 --> 01:56:53,240
Speaker 11: I'm a home former high school teacher. I don't go

2199
01:56:53,320 --> 01:56:54,440
Speaker 11: to jail like this is.

2200
01:56:55,040 --> 01:56:57,560
Speaker 17: And because I'm kind of a high profile person around here,

2201
01:56:58,200 --> 01:57:01,520
Speaker 17: they don't put me in general popularly, which is actually

2202
01:57:01,640 --> 01:57:05,400
Speaker 17: much worse because you're in isolation the whole time and

2203
01:57:05,520 --> 01:57:07,520
Speaker 17: there's no one to pass the time with. There's no

2204
01:57:07,560 --> 01:57:09,880
Speaker 17: one to play chess. With to have a conversation with.

2205
01:57:10,400 --> 01:57:14,640
Speaker 17: And I'm just in shock and I'm sad and I'm depressed,

2206
01:57:15,160 --> 01:57:18,120
Speaker 17: and you know, I do the sixty days. I develop

2207
01:57:18,160 --> 01:57:21,160
Speaker 17: a routine that kind of helps me get through it mentally, physically.

2208
01:57:22,040 --> 01:57:24,320
Speaker 11: And when I got out of jail, in isolation the

2209
01:57:24,360 --> 01:57:25,920
Speaker 11: whole time, the whole time.

2210
01:57:26,080 --> 01:57:28,480
Speaker 17: We actually had my lawyer at meetings with the jail

2211
01:57:28,520 --> 01:57:31,240
Speaker 17: guard asking, like I said, I'd rather get the shit

2212
01:57:31,320 --> 01:57:32,800
Speaker 17: kicked out of me, Like if I get beat up,

2213
01:57:32,840 --> 01:57:34,880
Speaker 17: I get beat up, Like I'd rather do that than

2214
01:57:34,920 --> 01:57:35,680
Speaker 17: sit here all day.

2215
01:57:35,720 --> 01:57:39,120
Speaker 11: This is torture, like this is and I'm in medical.

2216
01:57:39,000 --> 01:57:41,200
Speaker 4: The UN calls it, defines it as torture.

2217
01:57:41,360 --> 01:57:44,320
Speaker 17: Yeah, yeah, And I'm sitting in the medical unit, which

2218
01:57:44,440 --> 01:57:47,360
Speaker 17: is where they send people who are having freak outs.

2219
01:57:47,480 --> 01:57:49,560
Speaker 17: You know, there's a lot of people in jail who

2220
01:57:49,600 --> 01:57:52,960
Speaker 17: should be in mental institutions, and they all send them

2221
01:57:53,000 --> 01:57:56,280
Speaker 17: to the medical unit and they're yelling and screaming all

2222
01:57:56,360 --> 01:57:59,520
Speaker 17: night and you can't sleep. One guy had just come

2223
01:57:59,560 --> 01:58:01,800
Speaker 17: into jail and he had swallowed a bunch of heroin

2224
01:58:01,920 --> 01:58:05,040
Speaker 17: packets beforehand, and I guess that's what they do, and

2225
01:58:05,120 --> 01:58:07,160
Speaker 17: they shit it out and that you can get high

2226
01:58:07,160 --> 01:58:09,080
Speaker 17: in jail that way, and so but it comes up

2227
01:58:09,120 --> 01:58:11,320
Speaker 17: in the X ray and so they send him to medical.

2228
01:58:11,880 --> 01:58:12,480
Speaker 11: And it was a.

2229
01:58:12,520 --> 01:58:14,760
Speaker 17: CEO's job to sit there outside of a cell and

2230
01:58:14,840 --> 01:58:17,160
Speaker 17: wait for him to take a shit, and just that

2231
01:58:17,360 --> 01:58:19,600
Speaker 17: was his, I mean, worst job ever. And but it

2232
01:58:19,720 --> 01:58:21,840
Speaker 17: smells so bad in the whole unit, and like that's

2233
01:58:21,880 --> 01:58:23,400
Speaker 17: where I was living for sixty days.

2234
01:58:23,440 --> 01:58:26,400
Speaker 11: It was literal hell. And so I got out of there.

2235
01:58:26,480 --> 01:58:30,240
Speaker 17: On February twenty third, three days later, camer Reid has

2236
01:58:30,280 --> 01:58:32,240
Speaker 17: a hearing, all right, and I go to that hearing

2237
01:58:32,600 --> 01:58:35,000
Speaker 17: because I never miss a can't read hearing and it's

2238
01:58:35,040 --> 01:58:38,320
Speaker 17: my job, and I'm back. And who shows up to

2239
01:58:38,400 --> 01:58:41,920
Speaker 17: the hearing with the Jennifer McCabe and Chris Albert but

2240
01:58:42,560 --> 01:58:45,320
Speaker 17: Lindsay Gattani, the person that sent me to jail in

2241
01:58:45,320 --> 01:58:48,000
Speaker 17: the first place, in live and she has never come

2242
01:58:48,080 --> 01:58:51,120
Speaker 17: to a hearing before. They have since befriended this woman

2243
01:58:51,480 --> 01:58:53,480
Speaker 17: while I was in jail, and they know she has

2244
01:58:53,520 --> 01:58:55,960
Speaker 17: a restraining order on me because of the arrest, and

2245
01:58:56,160 --> 01:58:59,600
Speaker 17: they bring her like a toy and I am forced

2246
01:58:59,640 --> 01:59:02,440
Speaker 17: to leave the courtroom, which I do because I can't

2247
01:59:02,440 --> 01:59:05,000
Speaker 17: be within one hundred yards of her. I leave I

2248
01:59:05,080 --> 01:59:08,120
Speaker 17: stand across the street where a police officer told me

2249
01:59:08,200 --> 01:59:11,080
Speaker 17: to go, and ten minutes later the hearing's over and

2250
01:59:11,360 --> 01:59:14,880
Speaker 17: everybody leaves. I didn't see her, she didn't see me,

2251
01:59:16,080 --> 01:59:19,520
Speaker 17: and a few hours later she must have heard that

2252
01:59:19,600 --> 01:59:21,760
Speaker 17: I was still outside the courthouse, that the Registry of

2253
01:59:21,800 --> 01:59:24,280
Speaker 17: Deeds across the street. So she calls the police and

2254
01:59:24,360 --> 01:59:26,720
Speaker 17: she says he was within one hundred yards of me

2255
01:59:26,800 --> 01:59:29,120
Speaker 17: and he was yelling liar, liar at me, which is

2256
01:59:29,400 --> 01:59:32,400
Speaker 17: completely untrue, and there's video to prove this. And so

2257
01:59:32,840 --> 01:59:35,480
Speaker 17: I am charged once again, three days after getting out

2258
01:59:35,520 --> 01:59:40,640
Speaker 17: of jail, with the misdemeanor of violating a restraining order.

2259
01:59:41,240 --> 01:59:44,320
Speaker 17: I had also been indicted since then with witness intimidation

2260
01:59:44,400 --> 01:59:48,160
Speaker 17: against her and wire tapping her for recording our conversation,

2261
01:59:48,280 --> 01:59:49,920
Speaker 17: which she said I didn't give a permission to do.

2262
01:59:50,600 --> 01:59:53,520
Speaker 17: And just like that, I'm facing another one hundred and

2263
01:59:53,520 --> 01:59:56,640
Speaker 17: twenty days in jail, this time at a March fourteenth hearing.

2264
01:59:56,760 --> 01:59:59,400
Speaker 17: So I didn't really feel free at all. Luckily, the

2265
01:59:59,520 --> 02:00:03,800
Speaker 17: judge just kind of saw through this one and didn't

2266
02:00:03,920 --> 02:00:07,240
Speaker 17: revoke my bail this time. But it was still very scary,

2267
02:00:07,560 --> 02:00:09,320
Speaker 17: and that's what I had the trial for a couple

2268
02:00:09,360 --> 02:00:13,160
Speaker 17: weeks ago was violating the restraining order against her and

2269
02:00:13,160 --> 02:00:13,800
Speaker 17: I was acquitted.

2270
02:00:16,160 --> 02:00:19,360
Speaker 4: So have you gone? What about the original charges of

2271
02:00:19,560 --> 02:00:20,240
Speaker 4: salt and battery?

2272
02:00:21,920 --> 02:00:24,000
Speaker 17: They dropped that the day I got out of jail,

2273
02:00:24,360 --> 02:00:26,640
Speaker 17: so they made it obvious that they had no intention

2274
02:00:26,800 --> 02:00:30,640
Speaker 17: whatsoever of pursuing this. They didn't believe her, and they

2275
02:00:30,680 --> 02:00:33,200
Speaker 17: were just using this as a way to have your

2276
02:00:33,240 --> 02:00:35,680
Speaker 17: bail revoked. I mean, I learned a lot about I

2277
02:00:36,360 --> 02:00:39,040
Speaker 17: didn't know anything about bail revocation. I'm not a criminal,

2278
02:00:39,080 --> 02:00:40,920
Speaker 17: and I've never violated the law before, and this is

2279
02:00:41,160 --> 02:00:44,440
Speaker 17: all very new territory to me. And that's one thing

2280
02:00:44,480 --> 02:00:46,600
Speaker 17: I've learned about this is that there are a lot

2281
02:00:46,720 --> 02:00:50,480
Speaker 17: of people in jail temporary the ninety day stints for

2282
02:00:50,640 --> 02:00:54,600
Speaker 17: bail revocations for crimes that they have never been convicted

2283
02:00:54,640 --> 02:00:57,880
Speaker 17: of and probably will never get convicted of, and they

2284
02:00:58,040 --> 02:01:02,200
Speaker 17: just and some of them, yeah, well yeah, some of them,

2285
02:01:02,280 --> 02:01:05,120
Speaker 17: while they're in jail for ninety days to get out earlier,

2286
02:01:05,640 --> 02:01:09,400
Speaker 17: will plea out to whatever misdemeanor. And it's like that's

2287
02:01:09,440 --> 02:01:11,880
Speaker 17: how they get their stats, that's how they get their

2288
02:01:11,960 --> 02:01:14,400
Speaker 17: you know, their convictions or whatever is. They just throw

2289
02:01:14,480 --> 02:01:17,440
Speaker 17: you in jail for something you haven't been convicted of

2290
02:01:17,640 --> 02:01:20,040
Speaker 17: and you want to get out, so you just like, whatever, Okay,

2291
02:01:20,080 --> 02:01:21,280
Speaker 17: I'll take a plea.

2292
02:01:21,320 --> 02:01:22,000
Speaker 11: What do I have to do?

2293
02:01:22,240 --> 02:01:25,240
Speaker 17: I have to do community service for ten hours? Okay, whatever,

2294
02:01:25,480 --> 02:01:27,800
Speaker 17: just get me out of here. And that's what they do.

2295
02:01:28,080 --> 02:01:30,240
Speaker 17: And so it's really I think it's a huge problem.

2296
02:01:30,320 --> 02:01:33,840
Speaker 17: I think bail revocation in general seems unconstitutional to put

2297
02:01:33,840 --> 02:01:35,720
Speaker 17: people in jail for crimes that they have never been

2298
02:01:35,840 --> 02:01:38,920
Speaker 17: convicted of, because you don't get that time back. Right.

2299
02:01:39,520 --> 02:01:42,520
Speaker 4: So, you went into this as a you know, conservative,

2300
02:01:42,600 --> 02:01:45,200
Speaker 4: back to the blue guy who'd been publicly oppositional to

2301
02:01:45,240 --> 02:01:47,480
Speaker 4: Black Lives Matter. I'm just curious, has it have you

2302
02:01:47,600 --> 02:01:52,320
Speaker 4: rethought some of your politics along along the way, or

2303
02:01:52,680 --> 02:01:55,680
Speaker 4: do you have a different understanding of policing and law

2304
02:01:55,760 --> 02:01:58,000
Speaker 4: enforcement than you did when you went into this.

2305
02:01:58,840 --> 02:02:03,000
Speaker 17: Yeah, I certainly I view police as just like any

2306
02:02:03,080 --> 02:02:06,400
Speaker 17: other line of work, potentially flawed, Like people are people.

2307
02:02:06,720 --> 02:02:09,880
Speaker 17: I'm sure there's great cops, but I'm sure there's bad cops.

2308
02:02:09,920 --> 02:02:11,720
Speaker 17: As a teacher, like there's a lot of great teachers,

2309
02:02:11,800 --> 02:02:14,560
Speaker 17: and then there's some teachers who mess around with students, right, Like,

2310
02:02:14,600 --> 02:02:19,000
Speaker 17: there's bad like every possession, every profession has their bad apples,

2311
02:02:19,720 --> 02:02:22,160
Speaker 17: But yeah, I mean, I certainly think it's changed my

2312
02:02:22,800 --> 02:02:27,160
Speaker 17: you know, opinions on the accused. Like I was this

2313
02:02:27,280 --> 02:02:30,640
Speaker 17: person who, like many just viewed the person sitting in

2314
02:02:30,720 --> 02:02:33,440
Speaker 17: the defendant chair must have done something because how else

2315
02:02:33,480 --> 02:02:35,840
Speaker 17: did they get there? But now I know, with Karen

2316
02:02:35,920 --> 02:02:38,200
Speaker 17: Reid and myself that actually anyone could be there, they

2317
02:02:38,200 --> 02:02:41,880
Speaker 17: could put any It means not like being indicted or

2318
02:02:42,400 --> 02:02:45,160
Speaker 17: charged with the crime does not mean you're guilty of

2319
02:02:45,240 --> 02:02:45,600
Speaker 17: a crime.

2320
02:02:45,680 --> 02:02:47,640
Speaker 11: That is one big thing I've taken out of this.

2321
02:02:47,880 --> 02:02:52,000
Speaker 17: I always now will give the defendants the assumption of

2322
02:02:52,200 --> 02:02:54,960
Speaker 17: innocence in any crime, and it is up to the

2323
02:02:55,080 --> 02:02:58,120
Speaker 17: state to prove they have the burden of proving beyond

2324
02:02:58,160 --> 02:03:01,080
Speaker 17: a reasonable doubt that this person did that. So I

2325
02:03:01,160 --> 02:03:03,120
Speaker 17: don't know if that's a political thing, because I do

2326
02:03:03,320 --> 02:03:06,560
Speaker 17: think that, you know, kind of cuts all. There's people

2327
02:03:06,640 --> 02:03:09,320
Speaker 17: on the right and the left that you know, agree

2328
02:03:09,400 --> 02:03:11,520
Speaker 17: with me on this issue, like for and there's also

2329
02:03:11,600 --> 02:03:13,560
Speaker 17: people on the left that won't get on board with

2330
02:03:13,680 --> 02:03:15,200
Speaker 17: me with this, and people on the right it won't

2331
02:03:15,280 --> 02:03:17,680
Speaker 17: like so for instance, like people like you know, Glenn

2332
02:03:17,760 --> 02:03:20,720
Speaker 17: Greenwald and Tucker Carlson, who you know, one is liberal

2333
02:03:20,800 --> 02:03:24,760
Speaker 17: and the other's conservative, but I think it's I find

2334
02:03:24,800 --> 02:03:29,080
Speaker 17: them interesting because they they both are very big advocates

2335
02:03:29,160 --> 02:03:31,640
Speaker 17: for free speech and being able to say what you

2336
02:03:31,760 --> 02:03:36,240
Speaker 17: want and just kind of against the weaponization of the government, uh,

2337
02:03:36,360 --> 02:03:39,520
Speaker 17: in order to, you know, punish people who have spoken out.

2338
02:03:40,800 --> 02:03:43,200
Speaker 4: So what's what's next for you? I saw some news

2339
02:03:43,280 --> 02:03:46,680
Speaker 4: that you're involved with a movie that's going to be produced.

2340
02:03:46,720 --> 02:03:48,280
Speaker 4: Can you talk a little bit about that, and also

2341
02:03:50,520 --> 02:03:52,680
Speaker 4: what does your lawyer say about the likelihood of these

2342
02:03:53,480 --> 02:03:55,360
Speaker 4: charges like sticking and going forward?

2343
02:03:56,160 --> 02:03:58,960
Speaker 17: Yeah, So with the charges I had, like I said,

2344
02:03:59,000 --> 02:04:00,880
Speaker 17: I still have, I'm facing one hundred and five years

2345
02:04:00,920 --> 02:04:03,080
Speaker 17: in jail, and we're going to try to knock out

2346
02:04:03,160 --> 02:04:05,600
Speaker 17: like the Lindsay witness intimidation ones. We're going to file

2347
02:04:05,640 --> 02:04:07,560
Speaker 17: emotion to dismiss. I think we can win that one.

2348
02:04:07,960 --> 02:04:10,880
Speaker 17: Same with the window intimidation's one. So hopefully I'm looking

2349
02:04:10,920 --> 02:04:13,360
Speaker 17: at six charges still a felony witness intimidation.

2350
02:04:13,560 --> 02:04:16,200
Speaker 11: So at that point a number of things can happen.

2351
02:04:16,720 --> 02:04:19,280
Speaker 17: Worst case scenario is we bring it to trial, and

2352
02:04:19,480 --> 02:04:22,000
Speaker 17: that's a very scary prospect because you're putting your faith

2353
02:04:22,480 --> 02:04:24,920
Speaker 17: in the hands of twelve strangers. Or a judge if

2354
02:04:24,960 --> 02:04:27,120
Speaker 17: you go bench trial, and so that's something we'd like

2355
02:04:27,200 --> 02:04:31,120
Speaker 17: to avoid if possible. And I'm kind of hoping that

2356
02:04:31,240 --> 02:04:33,800
Speaker 17: cooler heads will prevail in all this, and now that

2357
02:04:33,920 --> 02:04:36,760
Speaker 17: Caaren Reid has been acquitted, that they'll take a step

2358
02:04:36,840 --> 02:04:40,080
Speaker 17: back and say, why don't we just end this Karen

2359
02:04:40,160 --> 02:04:40,680
Speaker 17: Reid saga.

2360
02:04:40,760 --> 02:04:42,760
Speaker 11: This has been embarrassing for us. We lost.

2361
02:04:44,320 --> 02:04:48,200
Speaker 17: He was kind of vindicated with the acquittal, and you know,

2362
02:04:48,360 --> 02:04:50,680
Speaker 17: because if Karen Reid didn't do it, someone else did.

2363
02:04:50,840 --> 02:04:53,080
Speaker 17: And he's accusing these people of doing it, and so

2364
02:04:53,160 --> 02:04:56,320
Speaker 17: apparently twelve jurors believe that they did it. So you know,

2365
02:04:56,480 --> 02:04:58,560
Speaker 17: maybe maybe it's best to take a step back. So

2366
02:04:58,680 --> 02:05:01,320
Speaker 17: that's one thing I'm hoping for. There's also a DA

2367
02:05:01,480 --> 02:05:04,600
Speaker 17: election coming up in twenty twenty six, and the people

2368
02:05:04,760 --> 02:05:08,160
Speaker 17: who are looking at primary because it's a very liberal county,

2369
02:05:08,240 --> 02:05:10,840
Speaker 17: a Republican can't win that seat. So the only way

2370
02:05:10,880 --> 02:05:14,480
Speaker 17: he can be booted is with is if he's primaried

2371
02:05:14,600 --> 02:05:17,040
Speaker 17: and one of the women running against him now is

2372
02:05:17,120 --> 02:05:20,360
Speaker 17: taking the kind of pro free speech, pro CAUNRA reposition,

2373
02:05:20,600 --> 02:05:22,920
Speaker 17: and so like, maybe there will be political change that

2374
02:05:22,960 --> 02:05:25,920
Speaker 17: will save me. Who knows, but I can't count on that,

2375
02:05:26,040 --> 02:05:30,200
Speaker 17: So that's how we're dealing with those charges, but day

2376
02:05:30,240 --> 02:05:33,200
Speaker 17: by day. But as far as the movie goes, yeah,

2377
02:05:33,240 --> 02:05:36,320
Speaker 17: I signed a deal with Compelling Pictures, a production company

2378
02:05:36,360 --> 02:05:39,840
Speaker 17: out of Los Angeles, in last year, and they have

2379
02:05:39,920 --> 02:05:43,440
Speaker 17: the rights to book my book, my movie, and the

2380
02:05:43,560 --> 02:05:46,320
Speaker 17: documentary which we've been working on for several months now.

2381
02:05:46,680 --> 02:05:48,640
Speaker 17: And we got a lot of great footage during the

2382
02:05:48,720 --> 02:05:52,560
Speaker 17: week of Camera Read's acquittal, and that should be coming

2383
02:05:52,600 --> 02:05:54,600
Speaker 17: out on four to six months. I don't know what

2384
02:05:54,720 --> 02:05:58,720
Speaker 17: streaming platform it will be on. King Yeah, the documentary,

2385
02:05:58,960 --> 02:06:02,920
Speaker 17: I don't know. There's a competitive, a competitor documentary that's

2386
02:06:02,960 --> 02:06:06,120
Speaker 17: kind of coming out with a company called Sandpaper Films.

2387
02:06:06,360 --> 02:06:09,360
Speaker 17: It's a British company and they have a deal with Netflix,

2388
02:06:10,240 --> 02:06:13,080
Speaker 17: but they don't you know, I won't be in that documentary.

2389
02:06:13,120 --> 02:06:14,240
Speaker 11: I refuse to participate.

2390
02:06:14,320 --> 02:06:16,440
Speaker 17: They have kind of taken a turtle boy as the

2391
02:06:16,560 --> 02:06:19,440
Speaker 17: villain approach to their documentary.

2392
02:06:19,480 --> 02:06:20,800
Speaker 11: That's at least what I understand.

2393
02:06:21,000 --> 02:06:24,040
Speaker 17: So it's not going to be a very popular documentary

2394
02:06:24,040 --> 02:06:26,920
Speaker 17: because there's no market for Karen Reid is guilty. The

2395
02:06:27,000 --> 02:06:29,280
Speaker 17: vast majority of the public beliefs Canon Read is innocent.

2396
02:06:29,360 --> 02:06:32,240
Speaker 17: So I think that because they're a British company, they

2397
02:06:32,240 --> 02:06:36,040
Speaker 17: don't really understand the vibe over here in Massachusetts that

2398
02:06:36,200 --> 02:06:39,200
Speaker 17: actually the woman accused of murder is the protagonist in

2399
02:06:39,280 --> 02:06:41,920
Speaker 17: the story and Turtle Boy is kind of the person

2400
02:06:42,160 --> 02:06:43,160
Speaker 17: jumping in and helping her.

2401
02:06:43,920 --> 02:06:45,240
Speaker 11: And so I don't think that's going to go well

2402
02:06:45,280 --> 02:06:47,200
Speaker 11: for them. But we're using the.

2403
02:06:47,520 --> 02:06:50,800
Speaker 17: Documentary to kind of build up the Hollywood movie. That's

2404
02:06:50,880 --> 02:06:55,200
Speaker 17: that's what they're big into. And he's talking to directors, screenwriters, actors,

2405
02:06:55,600 --> 02:06:58,440
Speaker 17: everybody's in the process of that and he hopes that

2406
02:06:58,680 --> 02:07:00,680
Speaker 17: to have the dock out and force six months and

2407
02:07:00,800 --> 02:07:02,840
Speaker 17: the movie within eighteen months.

2408
02:07:03,960 --> 02:07:06,960
Speaker 4: Last question for you, where's doctor turtle Boy come from?

2409
02:07:07,560 --> 02:07:09,760
Speaker 4: Where's that? Where's that nickname? Well?

2410
02:07:09,840 --> 02:07:11,640
Speaker 17: I ran out of I've I've been kicked off of

2411
02:07:11,680 --> 02:07:13,800
Speaker 17: Twitter so many times that I ran out of handles.

2412
02:07:14,240 --> 02:07:17,200
Speaker 17: And I was honestly inspired to do it by Jill Biden.

2413
02:07:17,400 --> 02:07:21,000
Speaker 17: Like my old my slogan used to be, well, if

2414
02:07:21,080 --> 02:07:23,280
Speaker 17: Jill Biden's a doctored, then so am I. And so

2415
02:07:23,440 --> 02:07:26,680
Speaker 17: that's how it started. And I have since transformed that

2416
02:07:26,840 --> 02:07:29,520
Speaker 17: into if jud Welcher is a doctor. Jud Welcher was

2417
02:07:29,560 --> 02:07:32,200
Speaker 17: the guy the crash reconstruction is for the commos.

2418
02:07:32,120 --> 02:07:32,840
Speaker 11: Then, so am I.

2419
02:07:33,040 --> 02:07:34,720
Speaker 17: But I kind of dig it, like it's cool being

2420
02:07:34,800 --> 02:07:37,560
Speaker 17: called doctor, Like I get why people like being called doctor.

2421
02:07:37,600 --> 02:07:40,480
Speaker 17: It makes you feel important, and you know, I'm not

2422
02:07:40,640 --> 02:07:43,040
Speaker 17: actually a doctor, like if you're dying, don't call me,

2423
02:07:43,840 --> 02:07:46,200
Speaker 17: but you know, I like the sound of it, so

2424
02:07:46,240 --> 02:07:46,840
Speaker 17: I just stuck with it.

2425
02:07:47,800 --> 02:07:50,880
Speaker 4: Well, doctor, thank you for joining us. I really really

2426
02:07:50,920 --> 02:07:54,680
Speaker 4: appreciate this. We'll continue to follow this this story too.

2427
02:07:55,200 --> 02:07:55,320
Speaker 6: Well.

2428
02:07:55,360 --> 02:07:56,840
Speaker 11: Thanks for having me Ryan, I really appreciate it.

2429
02:07:57,320 --> 02:07:59,360
Speaker 4: All right, that was the good doctor, Turtle boy, and

2430
02:07:59,600 --> 02:08:02,360
Speaker 4: that'll do do it for the program today. Thank you

2431
02:08:02,560 --> 02:08:05,200
Speaker 4: to Dave Smith for holding down the fort with me.

2432
02:08:05,280 --> 02:08:08,080
Speaker 4: Thank you Todave Dan for joining to talk about the

2433
02:08:08,160 --> 02:08:10,560
Speaker 4: big beautiful Bill, and of course also thank you to

2434
02:08:10,800 --> 02:08:15,240
Speaker 4: Aiden Carney. Thanks everybody for joining us, and the regular

2435
02:08:15,280 --> 02:08:18,480
Speaker 4: crew will be back on Tuesday. See you there,