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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault.

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Speaker 2: Listener discretion is advised all along the way.

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Speaker 3: Some things have happened that they were out of desperation.

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Speaker 3: It's better to let one bad person go than to

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Speaker 3: ruin four people's lives by accusing them something they didn't do.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold war wicked On Exactly Right. I've

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Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've

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Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home

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Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've

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Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we

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Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have

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Speaker 1: never been published. Wicked Words is about the choices that

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Speaker 1: writers make, good and bad. Pep dive into the stories

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Speaker 1: behind the stories. Beverly Lowry's an author in Austin, Texas

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Speaker 1: and a good friend. She's written a heartbreaking book called

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Speaker 1: Who Killed These Girls? It's about the yogurt shop murders

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Speaker 1: which happened here when I was in high school. Just

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Speaker 1: a few miles from my house. It's a story about

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Speaker 1: the wrongful conviction of four.

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Speaker 2: Men and the devastated families of the victims, and no

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Speaker 2: one feels like they've gotten justice.

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Speaker 3: In a very safe neighborhood. Two girls were working at

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Speaker 3: and I can't believe it's yogurt shop, frozen yogurt shop

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Speaker 3: up in northwest Austin. They were closing up the shop

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Speaker 3: and one of the girl's sisters came to visit and

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Speaker 3: be there to help close up the shop with a friend.

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Speaker 3: The two girls working there were seventeen, the sister was

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Speaker 3: thirteen and her friend was fifteen, So four girls the

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Speaker 3: shop closes. The next thing we know about what happened

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Speaker 3: is a policeman sees smoke coming out of the back

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Speaker 3: of the strip mall. It's past eleven and everything's closed.

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Speaker 3: Everything's dark, and he found out it was the yogurt shop.

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Speaker 2: He calls the fire department.

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Speaker 3: Fire department comes and prays some five hundred gallons of

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Speaker 3: water and one of the firemen trips over something and

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Speaker 3: he nudges the guy next to him and points down

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Speaker 3: and says, is that a foot? At that point, the

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Speaker 3: place is flooded it's been burned. Front part is smoky,

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Speaker 3: but not damage. So the fire hadn't been blazing that

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Speaker 3: long when the policeman discovered it, and it was confined

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Speaker 3: to that back room. And when they finally cleared the

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Speaker 3: air of smoke, they realized there are four dead, burned

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Speaker 3: girls in the back of this frozen yogurt shop, all teenagers,

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Speaker 3: all teenagers. The police are called, you know, homicide is called,

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Speaker 3: so they're fireman. They're discovering this grotesque, horrible, horrible scene.

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Speaker 3: John Jones was the lead homicide detective. He was on duty,

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Speaker 3: and so he became the case agent for this case,

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Speaker 3: which has earned the name of infamous title of the

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Speaker 3: yogurt shop murders. He said he'd been a policeman twenty

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Speaker 3: five years and never seen anything like it. Clues were

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Speaker 3: hard to come by, anything was hard to come by.

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Speaker 2: Because everything was contaminated between the water and the fire.

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Speaker 3: Between the water and the fire. And John told me

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Speaker 3: when cops hate fire, and you can see why. And

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Speaker 3: he had actually dealt with another fire in which people

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Speaker 3: were burned to death, so it was not a pleasant

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Speaker 3: recurrence for him.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back to that night, So that was December sixth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety one. Right, if you're the cop, where do

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Speaker 1: you even start with this crime scene? Everything's contaminated. There

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Speaker 1: are no immediate suspects, there's no witnesses, no cameras. I'm assuming,

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Speaker 1: I mean, just no clues. This was ninety one. DNA

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Speaker 1: had been used to solve crimes first in England in

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight. That's only three years before this happened,

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Speaker 1: just beginning to be used in the US past couple

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Speaker 1: of years, hardly at all.

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Speaker 2: In a city like Austin.

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Speaker 3: There was no CSI unit, and you know in the

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Speaker 3: forensics unit was small and pretty inexperienced, but there was

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Speaker 3: one connected to the Highway department. John called there first

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Speaker 3: because they did have forensic equipment to get DNA, so

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Speaker 3: he consulted with them. They all agreed this was the

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Speaker 3: thing to do. They're sexual assault involved with this case.

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Speaker 3: It was, but they of course didn't know right away.

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Speaker 3: There were just small amounts. They got these patche samples,

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Speaker 3: but didn't know how much good that would do or

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Speaker 3: what they could draw from it.

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Speaker 1: So you've got four young women, teenagers, and we know

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Speaker 1: at least three out of four have been sexually assaulted

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Speaker 1: what does that tell the police multiple perpetrators.

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Speaker 3: We left that important point. They were also shot to

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Speaker 3: death before they were burned, and they were tied up.

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Speaker 3: They were made to kneel and take off their clothes.

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Speaker 3: And you know, there were things that were discovered, such

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Speaker 3: as there had to be more than one. You can't

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Speaker 3: hold the gun on somebody and tie them up at

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Speaker 3: the same time.

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Speaker 2: One person likely pulled the trigger.

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Speaker 1: Yes, okay, one shot, yeah, in the back of that

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Speaker 1: shotgun right, oh, twenty two?

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: This took time. Sexual assaults took time. Murders took time.

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Speaker 1: Putting down an accelerant took time. They must have known

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Speaker 1: right that these girls were going to be on their own.

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Speaker 1: They might not have been scared of the manager coming in.

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Speaker 1: Is that kind of the way that the police were

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Speaker 1: starting to think?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they figured all that out pretty quickly.

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Speaker 3: And me saw the two cars. They were the only

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Speaker 3: two cars in parking lot. See you with the two girls,

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Speaker 3: little Volkswagen bus and a small pickup truck.

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Speaker 2: How close were they to closing? Closing?

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Speaker 3: They were closing and in fact, the front door was

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Speaker 3: locked from the inside and the rules from the yogurt

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Speaker 3: shop company were very specific of how to close, and

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Speaker 3: the first thing they were to do was at ten

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Speaker 3: of eleven to lock the front door, so if anybody's inside,

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Speaker 3: they say, if not, they lock it, because they don't

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Speaker 3: they want to start cleaning up. So at ten of

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Speaker 3: eleven they locked the door, and if you read the

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Speaker 3: rules of how to clean up, you would know exactly

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Speaker 3: at what point they were when they were disturbed. They

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Speaker 3: were already in there is the best So if two

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Speaker 3: men are there, two boys, two men, whenever they are

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Speaker 3: finishing up their drink or ice cream, you clean up

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Speaker 3: around them. That's what happened. And the two youngest girls

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Speaker 3: were already in the back washing dishes. That's where the

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Speaker 3: big sink was, so they were in the storeroom. So

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Speaker 3: what the intruders had to do was run the older

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Speaker 3: girls back to the storeroom where they meet up with

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Speaker 3: the other two. Not clear they knew they were back there.

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Speaker 3: You know, they could have been surprised. I mean nothing

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Speaker 3: about any of that's clear. I grew up in this area.

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Speaker 3: I went to that shop growing up.

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Speaker 2: I was their age.

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Speaker 1: I was seventeen at the time in high school. That

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Speaker 1: strip mall is pretty open. It's on a major street,

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Speaker 1: so is the idea that these two guys pulled up

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Speaker 1: a truck or a car parked, did all of this

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Speaker 1: and then walked out the front door. That seems crazy

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Speaker 1: to me. No, they walked out the back door.

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Speaker 3: Do they think they were part That's what they think,

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Speaker 3: but don't really know.

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Speaker 2: The back door wasn't locked.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, as a teenager in that time period

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Speaker 1: to feel that sort of vulnerability, it was difficult.

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Speaker 2: Everybody was talking about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's get to the main four suspects who turn

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Speaker 1: out to be high school students at a different high

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Speaker 1: school from mine and a different one from theirs.

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Speaker 3: Also, they went to Lanier and the boys sometimes went

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Speaker 3: to McCallan. They weren't regular attendees. The youngest one did

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Speaker 3: go to school.

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Speaker 2: Were these four teenagers the first stop or were their

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Speaker 2: other suspects?

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Speaker 3: Before there were suspects, and there were confessions, and there

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Speaker 3: were tips that came in, like dozens and dozens and dozens.

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Speaker 2: A forgot It's like fifty a day for a while.

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Speaker 1: The most fascinating is the Kenneth Allen McDuff. Can you

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Speaker 1: summarize him? I'm sure many of the people in this

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Speaker 1: audience know Kenneth Alla McDuff is notorious.

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Speaker 3: Cereal Key had been in Austin. Kenneth Allen macduff was

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Speaker 3: a serial killer, and he was as brutal serial killer

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Speaker 3: as we've come by. Oh, if human beings can be

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Speaker 3: a monster, he was one.

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Speaker 2: This seems like he is.

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Speaker 3: I mean, what I said to Jones one time was

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Speaker 3: you go through all these stages of what happened, how

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Speaker 3: did it happen? And then when you get to the

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Speaker 3: who part, who could have done such a thing, and

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Speaker 3: especially in something like this, And the answer was Kenneth McDuff.

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Speaker 3: And I said to Jones one time, well macduff could

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Speaker 3: have done it, and he said, oh yeah, oh yeah,

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Speaker 3: he could have done it.

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Speaker 2: The problem is he didn't. Well, the DNA wasn't his.

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Speaker 3: I'm presumab the NA wasn't his, and he had an

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Speaker 3: alibi and it wasn't him.

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Speaker 1: He was confessing to basically, yeah, shooting Kennedy and everything else,

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Speaker 1: but he.

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Speaker 3: Didn't confess to this because he said, if I'd done it,

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Speaker 3: I'd be proud.

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Speaker 2: Nice.

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Speaker 3: He was number one, and then there were others. Okay,

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Speaker 3: So the yogurt shop was close to North Cross, Small

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Speaker 3: and Northcross s Mall at that time was a place

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Speaker 3: where kids hung out.

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Speaker 2: Most popular mall. I think I would say yes.

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Speaker 3: They walked around the Rocky Horror picture show played on

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Speaker 3: the weekends at the.

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Speaker 2: Food court, ice skating rink.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the ice skating rink. The two younger girls had

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Speaker 3: actually been there. That's where they were before they went

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Speaker 3: to the yogre shop. Sister dropped him off, went back

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Speaker 3: like a block and a half to her job at

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Speaker 3: the yogurt shop, and then they went and got the sister.

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Speaker 2: They did not walk she picked him up.

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Speaker 3: A week later, two guys showed up in Northcross Mill

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Speaker 3: one only fifteen and one seventeen or so. They went

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Speaker 3: up to the security guard, and the younger one, who's

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Speaker 3: a show off, the kind of smart allecy kid, showed

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Speaker 3: the the officer who they knew. The kid has a

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Speaker 3: twenty two tucked in his jean's belt and said, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I got a gun, and I did.

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Speaker 2: Those girls.

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Speaker 3: So they obligingly took them in, both boys, and took

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Speaker 3: them to the gardener bets and kept them overnight. Tell me,

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Speaker 3: but that is juvenile detention because they were underage. Jones

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Speaker 3: interviewed them and they had no clue and they were

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Speaker 3: just as John said, dudes without dates. They'd been hanging

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Speaker 3: out drinking beer all day the day of the murders,

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Speaker 3: didn't go to school, and the one kid, the show

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Speaker 3: off kid, had a car that his father let him drive,

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Speaker 3: so they drove around the car, smoked weed, drank beer.

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Speaker 3: John and all the cops not just shown decided they

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Speaker 3: were just showing off and gave one kid ticket for

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Speaker 3: carrying them a gun. And that was that for a

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Speaker 3: few years. John was eventually diagnosed with PTSD for work

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Speaker 3: in this case and not solving it. He grew very

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Speaker 3: close to the parents, very close, and apparently the police

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Speaker 3: department thought too close, especially to the one couple.

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Speaker 2: Well wait, what does that mean? I mean, does that

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Speaker 2: means calling them too often?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And he did this one thing.

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Speaker 3: There were three Mexican citizens, male citizens, who were brought

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Speaker 3: in at some point. They had been in Austin that night,

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Speaker 3: and they were bad guys. They were dope dealers and rapists.

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Speaker 3: They were not good citizens of either country. They thought

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Speaker 3: this is it and they were everybody's favorite candidate because

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Speaker 3: they were bad guys. They weren't Americans and yay, you know,

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Speaker 3: very convenient yeah, really convenient. John stayed here and sent

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Speaker 3: other cops down to interview these guys. They didn't know

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Speaker 3: it was yogurt, they didn't know how old the girls,

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Speaker 3: how many girls there were, They didn't do it. The

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Speaker 3: cop who's standing there called John and said, John, these

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Speaker 3: guys don't know anything. They've got it all wrong. And

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Speaker 3: people still believed it, and parents of the youngest girl

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Speaker 3: continued to believe that they were the guilty ones. And

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Speaker 3: John took it upon himself to write the Mexican ambassador,

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Speaker 3: I think, cover letter for this couple to sign saying

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Speaker 3: please bring these boys to justice. And that was improper,

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Speaker 3: and that was over the top. You know, the city

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Speaker 3: went crazy when they didn't find anybody. I'm sure the

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Speaker 3: media pressure of yeah, and the mayor and everybody's saying,

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Speaker 3: get these guys. Why can't you get these guys. So

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Speaker 3: John's getting a divorce, he's losing his family, and he's

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Speaker 3: not sleeping. He's under horrible, horrible stress. Not just that

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Speaker 3: you can't solve it, but he can't solve it for

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Speaker 3: the parents. And that's where everybody's remaining sympathy. Lay, I mean,

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Speaker 3: these people. One mother's long divorced and then two couples,

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Speaker 3: two couples, one of whom lost both of their daughters. Yes,

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Speaker 3: so there were three sets of parents for the four girls.

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Speaker 3: And so John was taking off the case. I don't

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Speaker 3: really know this, Nobody told me this, but I think

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Speaker 3: it was convenient something they used, you know, this letter

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Speaker 3: that he wasn't supposed to do, but they did it

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Speaker 3: in a very sudden fashion.

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Speaker 2: John never got over it. You still talk to him, yep.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he lives in Colorado now, but actually heard from

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Speaker 3: him this morning an email. He just calls it the

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Speaker 3: case capital T, capital C, because I know what he's

255
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Speaker 3: talking about. So they brought in a different guy who

256
00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:05,000
Speaker 3: went back to this original arrest of the kid at

257
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Speaker 3: Northcross Mall. I came by so much material on this case,

258
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Speaker 3: an unbelievable amount of material, mainly because of John, who

259
00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,360
Speaker 3: was bitter about his case being taken away. And he

260
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Speaker 3: was then put down for having let these four boys

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Speaker 3: go when they were arrested. And at some point John

262
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,960
Speaker 3: said to me, I don't guess you'd like to see

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Speaker 3: my files, would you?

264
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Speaker 2: And I said that might be tes and he said okay.

265
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Speaker 3: So we met at a bagel shop and he came

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Speaker 3: with a big laundry basket, not just a regular size,

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Speaker 3: but a giant size with hanging files in them, which

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Speaker 3: I brought home in scan and all the police files

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Speaker 3: were in there, I mean, down to the night of

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Speaker 3: the crime, what time per second this happened, This happened.

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Speaker 2: Essentially, a disgraced cop gave you all of this information

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Speaker 2: to tell his story.

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Speaker 3: And because he was bitter. He was bitter because he

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Speaker 3: didn't feel like these guys were guilty. He never thought

275
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Speaker 3: they had done it, and he was shunted aside and

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Speaker 3: given no credit for anything he had done. I guess

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Speaker 3: he trusted me to actually do right by what he had,

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Speaker 3: and he gave me everything, including the ATF guys files,

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Speaker 3: which he had.

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Speaker 1: Some of this a lot of stuff he probably should't

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Speaker 1: have had, exactly he should have turned in when he

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Speaker 1: left exactly.

283
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,080
Speaker 3: So I knew I shouldn't have it. So I got that.

284
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Speaker 3: And then of the two defense lawyers, Carlos Gusia and

285
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:55,880
Speaker 3: Jim Sawyer, Jim was endlessly conversational and full of information,

286
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,640
Speaker 3: got me interviews with one of the guys who went

287
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:04,960
Speaker 3: to Carlos Garcia was the other boys defense lawyer, and

288
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,879
Speaker 3: Carlos was the keeper of papers. He kept everything. He

289
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Speaker 3: would just give them to me.

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Speaker 1: Because you had had established a good relationship exactly.

291
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Speaker 3: I went to Carlos one time. He told me how

292
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Speaker 3: the second cop had capped Paul Johnson had worked by

293
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:27,240
Speaker 3: nailing the suspect he wanted and proving he did it,

294
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Speaker 3: you know, starting with the end inductive reason and making

295
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Speaker 3: it work. And he said, oh, they had a meeting.

296
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Speaker 3: They had a meeting, and he said, I shouldn't give

297
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Speaker 3: you this, but they fucked me over, so I'm just

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Speaker 3: gonna fuck them back. So in this meeting, Paul Johnson

299
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Speaker 3: starts with a drawing, so maybe there was an actual photograph,

300
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Speaker 3: and Maurice was in the middle, and here were like

301
00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:59,119
Speaker 3: rays of sunshine going out to his accomplices, to what

302
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,000
Speaker 3: he had done to the gun in the mall and everything.

303
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,639
Speaker 3: So they made it work. They brought in one guy first,

304
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Speaker 3: Mike Scott, who's not a brilliant guy, and he loved

305
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Speaker 3: the cops, and like a lot of confessors, he wanted

306
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,720
Speaker 3: to give them what they wanted. They interrogated him for

307
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,639
Speaker 3: twenty two hours, not straight but over the course of

308
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Speaker 3: a couple of days, and he would say, you know, guys,

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Speaker 3: I don't think I did this, and they say, oh, yeah,

310
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Speaker 3: you were there. So they started with him and he

311
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,520
Speaker 3: finally said, well, I guess I did it. You can

312
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:43,480
Speaker 3: actually see this guy like disappear under these questions. The

313
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,600
Speaker 3: last straw was what did you tie these girls up with?

314
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Speaker 3: And Mike Scott says Venetian blind cords and.

315
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Speaker 2: The cops says not Venetian buying.

316
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Speaker 3: So it's like twenty questions until he finally says, their clothes.

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Speaker 2: Now you got it.

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Speaker 1: What we know now is Innocence Project says that almost

319
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Speaker 1: thirty percent of wrongful conviction overturn cases.

320
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Speaker 2: Are because of false confessions.

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Speaker 1: Right, we know people do it, right, Why are their

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Speaker 1: parents not getting involved?

323
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Speaker 2: Troublemaker kids? I guess they're trouble maker kids.

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Speaker 3: They both Mike Scott and Rob Springsteen have divorced parents,

325
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Speaker 3: and Mike's parents had a lot of problems, a whole

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Speaker 3: lot of problems, and Rob's parents were divorced and they

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00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,960
Speaker 3: were trying to work with him, but he kept getting trouble,

328
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,680
Speaker 3: stealing and threatening, and they fit the profile.

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Speaker 2: The profile.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So they had these two confessions and everybody thought

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Speaker 3: that was it. The mayor said, the minute they were arrested,

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Speaker 3: Austin's long nightmare is over, like, okay, we got him now.

333
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:59,520
Speaker 3: They hadn't been on trial, but everybody wanted this thing.

334
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:05,399
Speaker 3: So the memory of those four young, smart, good citizen

335
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Speaker 3: white girls.

336
00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:09,000
Speaker 2: Where are we in time? When these four boys are arrested.

337
00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:13,240
Speaker 2: It's almost six years later. So after Mike Scott confessed

338
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,480
Speaker 2: and said Rob Springsteen was there, they start out with

339
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 2: an interrogation of Springsteen because they think their partners. Mike

340
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:23,440
Speaker 2: starts off kind.

341
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:27,640
Speaker 3: Of sitting back in his chair and relaxing and asking

342
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:32,439
Speaker 3: for dr Pepper instead of a coke and saying, I

343
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 3: want to do right by you.

344
00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 2: Guys. These boys end up becoming convicted. Two were convicted.

345
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Speaker 2: What ends up happening with all four of them?

346
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Speaker 3: These second two guys. Forrest Welburn was the youngest. He's

347
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,280
Speaker 3: a big, sweet, innocent kid. They asked him some question

348
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,280
Speaker 3: and he said, I'm not a reader. I don't read much.

349
00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:56,879
Speaker 3: I'm dumb, he says that. And finally, when one cop

350
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Speaker 3: was really pushing him hard and being a terror interrogator,

351
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 3: actually because you finally said, if you can't tell me

352
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Speaker 3: what you did, then you can just leave and my

353
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 3: and Forrest said okay, and he left. He was never indicted.

354
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 3: Marse Pearce was indicted, but he would never yield to

355
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,360
Speaker 3: the questioning. They still thought he was the ringleader and

356
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 3: thought eventually, once they got the first two guys in prison,

357
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,760
Speaker 3: they would turn on him, turn on hand, flip them.

358
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Speaker 2: Never did. Why was there stronger evidence against Rob Springsteen?

359
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,359
Speaker 2: And because they confessed, that was it. It was sortally

360
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:41,120
Speaker 2: based on the confess, nothing else.

361
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 3: They tried the two guys and figured they'd get to

362
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:52,120
Speaker 3: Maurice eventually in the trial. They brought Rob Springsteen to trial.

363
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:53,320
Speaker 2: First.

364
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 3: Rob had an unfortunate look about him. One of the

365
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 3: parents said to me, he was evil. You could see it,

366
00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 3: just look at those eyes. And he refused to dress

367
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 3: up in a tie, the way defendants are often coached

368
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,159
Speaker 3: to do, and so they tried him first. The DNA

369
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 3: didn't match his. The DNA didn't match any of the

370
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:39,480
Speaker 3: four guys. They had nothing on these guys except their confession.

371
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Speaker 1: And you know what's surprising to me in this case,

372
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,520
Speaker 1: You know, having two people pull off this crime seems

373
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 1: unusual enough a team, but the idea that they could

374
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 1: actually whoever really did this could keep their mouths shut

375
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 1: right together. That takes a real commitment to each other

376
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 1: as partners in this crime. How would that work with

377
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 1: four young men? Mike Scott did include the other three

378
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 1: guys his pals.

379
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 3: He said, yeah, well Rob was with me and I

380
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 3: think he was the one that tied him up. You know,

381
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 3: he would imagine what happened. So they went to West

382
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 3: Virginia where Rob was interrogated him and started with your friend,

383
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 3: Mike has already told us you were.

384
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 2: There, so he knows he's already behind the eight balls

385
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 2: again with right, But all they have is two confessions

386
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 2: they need to corroborate.

387
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:37,639
Speaker 3: The prosecutor. Head prosecutor goes to the judge and you know,

388
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 3: in court asked to be allowed to use Mike Scott's

389
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 3: confession as proof that Rob Springsteen was involved in this.

390
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 3: The defense attorney for Mike Scott is not about to

391
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,479
Speaker 3: let him get on the sand and get cross examined.

392
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 2: And so they have a cop read it out.

393
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 3: The judge asked for a number of exclusion censorship that

394
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 3: he thought would make it okay. So you've got a

395
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 3: case where the only evidence is a questionable tactic. That's

396
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 3: how the guys got out because the Texas State Court

397
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 3: of Appeals, which pretty much turns down every appeal that

398
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 3: comes to them, they did not turn these downs because

399
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 3: it was just too obvious, wow, that this was unconstitutional.

400
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 3: So there's a huge mistake. They had to dismiss the cases.

401
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 3: They tried everything they could. They got new DNA, you know,

402
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 3: more sophisticated, which worked against the prosecution.

403
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 1: And that is a big roll of the dice. When

404
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:50,880
Speaker 1: they do that, we'll use a different type of test

405
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 1: that's more sophisticated. Well, then you're risking excluding the suspects

406
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: that you're trying to right.

407
00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 3: And the lawyers they were furious about the way they're

408
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 3: clients had been treated. Obviously, they had to go before

409
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 3: judge and request using their own company to test the DNA,

410
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,680
Speaker 3: private company rather than a state life exactly, and they

411
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 3: were allowed.

412
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 1: Have you been able to talk to the family of

413
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: any of the young women?

414
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 3: Talk at length with the mother of the two girls.

415
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 3: The mother of Eliza talked to me for a little while.

416
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:30,480
Speaker 3: She was convinced that the two guys had done it,

417
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 3: and this was when they were appealing, and she would

418
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 3: say things like what rights did they have? She was

419
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,679
Speaker 3: convinced these boys did it because they confessed or because

420
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 3: she wanted. She's the one who said you could see

421
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 3: they were evil, Robin particular, and one time she said,

422
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 3: actually as Barbara, as the mother of the two girls,

423
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 3: I was with both the mothers, and Barbara said, I've

424
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 3: never I asked you, do you think those four guys

425
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 3: killed our girls? And it was something I had put

426
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 3: off saying to Barbara because I had gotten close to her,

427
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 3: and at that point I wasn't sure I was getting

428
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 3: to be I wasn't sure. She apologized later to me

429
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 3: because she knew he puts you in a hard position, yep.

430
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 3: And so I answered around it and said I'm not sure,

431
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 3: or something to that of fact. Maria said, well I am,

432
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 3: and never spoke to me again. But I talked to

433
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 3: Barbara at length. She was the sposed person of the parents.

434
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 3: She was able to stand in front of a camera

435
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 3: and talk. The mothers of the youngest girl just didn't

436
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 3: want to talk. I mean, they said a few things

437
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 3: to reporters, but not much. They were not being interviewed,

438
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 3: and I just I felt like I wanted to leave

439
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 3: them alone.

440
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 2: You don't want to be that reporter knocking on the door.

441
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 2: I didn't.

442
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 3: I didn't, and the youngest girl was killed because she

443
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 3: was spending the night out of the home with the

444
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 3: other two girls who were killed, the sisters, and so

445
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 3: apparently there was some feeling if Barbara had gone to

446
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 3: pick them up, and so I just left them alone.

447
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: It sounds like there's a lot of either real or

448
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: sort of made up accusations or assumptions of parents being involved,

449
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,919
Speaker 1: not being involved enough, kids having too much freedom, not

450
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 1: enough supervision.

451
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:37,439
Speaker 2: Does that sound right to you that?

452
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,120
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that is a storyline that swirled around absolutely.

453
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,680
Speaker 3: I talked to a young girl, she's about sixteen, who

454
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 3: lived close by the yogre shop, and she played a

455
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 3: part in the Rocky Horror Picture show. You know, they

456
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 3: use real people to act out the parts, and she

457
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 3: would sneak out every weekend night of her and she

458
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 3: walked right by the yogurt shop that night, on that

459
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 3: Friday night when this happened. Noticed that the lights were

460
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 3: still on because the Rocky Yard Picture Show came on

461
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 3: at Bendy, So this was past eleven. Lights were still on.

462
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,959
Speaker 3: That's all she saw. But I talked to her, and

463
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 3: I talked to her about just the yogurt chop. She

464
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 3: didn't say this, but her mother said, I was just

465
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 3: so glad my daughter didn't have to work. I mentioned

466
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 3: that to Barbara in quiet, subtle way, more subtle than that,

467
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 3: and she said, we work, we build things. That's who

468
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 3: we are, you know. They raised animals, Eliza raised pigs.

469
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 3: The two girls race sheet and they paid for the

470
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 3: feet and all, and they work to do that. And

471
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 3: so it's certainly you can understand people questioning that. At

472
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 3: the same time, parents have a hard time, you know,

473
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 3: we have a hard time thinking how far to go,

474
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 3: especially when kids get to be that old.

475
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: I worked at a radio station from the time I

476
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: was fifteen.

477
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 2: My mom and I were just talking about it.

478
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,719
Speaker 1: I was fifteen or sixteen, and I would arrive at

479
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: the radio station on my own off of a breaker

480
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: lane at six in the morning every Saturday morning, by myself. Yeah,

481
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: totally by myself in this building. Nobody else is with me.

482
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 2: It just depends on circumstances and my sense.

483
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 3: I mean, there's some really bad parents out there, of course,

484
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 3: but a whole lot of times people are trying and

485
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 3: the kids are trying, you know, and they're failing.

486
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 2: That's a good job.

487
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you're inside, you know, you're in an

488
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: established business. They're paid well, their friends get to come

489
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: in and out. Who would have fought to me where

490
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: this shop is positioned exactly, really prominently, as far as

491
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: I'm concerned, I would just not think this would be

492
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: the ideal.

493
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 3: Absolutely not. And it was Governor Ann Richard's yogurt shop.

494
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 3: You know she shopped there. The whole crime was thought

495
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 3: of here as not this city and not this neighborhood.

496
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: The title of your book is who killed these girls?

497
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 2: What do you think?

498
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 3: There was a story in the Austin Chronicle. Jordan Smith

499
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 3: was a reporter for the Chronicle, and she was good.

500
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 3: She did not let opinions stand in her way of

501
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 3: writing about the yogurt shop murders because she thought the

502
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 3: DAA and the prosecutor were way off base, and she

503
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 3: said so in print. But on the twentieth anniversary of

504
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 3: these murders, so that would be two thousand and one,

505
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 3: there was a cover story in the Austin Chronicle with

506
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 3: a drawing of two men sitting at a yoga table.

507
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 2: Now, one of the.

508
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 3: Revelatory moments for me was with Carlos Garcia and his

509
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 3: legal The picture photograph police photograph of the interior of

510
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 3: the yogurt shop.

511
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 2: The tables.

512
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 3: Jennifer, one of the girls, was cleaning the tables when

513
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 3: her work was interrupted. Shops closed, all the tables. The

514
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 3: napkin holder has been refilled and the tables wiped except

515
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 3: a booth. No napkins, no cleaning, and it's the last

516
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 3: booth before the cash register, so it's like the farthest

517
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 3: from the front door.

518
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 2: Beside the cash register.

519
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 3: There is a paper of soda glass with a straw

520
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 3: in it. One couple was there shortly before the place

521
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 3: was locked up. They were sitting in the next booths

522
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 3: and the woman was facing the window in front. The

523
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,479
Speaker 3: husband or the boyfriend was facing the other way. And

524
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 3: that woman was really good witness I mean, you know,

525
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 3: witnesses aren't always dependable.

526
00:31:58,040 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 2: She was very careful.

527
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,719
Speaker 3: She looked in the window and saw the reflection of

528
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 3: these two guys sitting in that booth and they were

529
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 3: hanging out, and she said, I'm not even sure they

530
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 3: had anything to eat or drink. And she described them

531
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 3: as big and one had on a puffy down vest

532
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 3: or jacket. And the couple said, let's leave they're cleaning up.

533
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 3: They were regulars and they knew one of the girls

534
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 3: just from shopping there. So they left, leaving these two

535
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 3: guys there, and I think they did it.

536
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 2: I mean, very little money was there.

537
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 3: They'd already deposited the day's deposit, and it wasn't about money,

538
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 3: so it may have been what's called a crime of opportunity.

539
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 3: And they could have been transient, driving through and saying

540
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 3: I want to do this.

541
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: And she couldn't describe them any better than what you

542
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 2: just told me, not a lot.

543
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,640
Speaker 3: I mean, she's seeing the reflection in the glass. So

544
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 3: that was it. And the boyfriend didn't have much of

545
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 3: any thing. So the chronicle had front page drawing of

546
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 3: the two guys as she described him, and it's picture

547
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 3: of them sort of, you know, leaning on the table,

548
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 3: and she said this woman said they were talking, and

549
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 3: she noted them as a little strange. They could be dead.

550
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 3: People say to me, you know, I know who those

551
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 3: guys are. And they did it and then nothing comes

552
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 3: of it, and so I've pretty much given up that

553
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,239
Speaker 3: anything's going to ever be found. John Jones said, I

554
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 3: asked him that very question one time. I said, do

555
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 3: you think this will ever be solved. You know, cops

556
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 3: send to be pretty skeptical. He said, oh.

557
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, why what did he think? I don't know.

558
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 2: I still don't know.

559
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 3: What I do know is he's not over it anymore

560
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 3: than the parents are.

561
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: They still have DNA sample to work with if they

562
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: If they do.

563
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 3: I don't know what's happened to that. That was very odds.

564
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 3: I was thinking about that. There was a story. It

565
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 3: was before March fifteen, because we were still out in

566
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 3: the world. So a match had come up guy in Florida,

567
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 3: but privacy concerns didn't allow the FBI to release it.

568
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 3: And I talked to one of the lawyers, said, you know,

569
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 3: this could be the nineteenth cousin.

570
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you about that if they've

571
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 1: considered the forensic genealogy aspect of this.

572
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 3: I did talk to the sister in law of the

573
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 3: youngest child who was killed, who had been very hostile

574
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 3: to me. I sent everybody a book, you know, all

575
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 3: the parents and the brother of this young girl and

576
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 3: his wife.

577
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 2: I talked to his wife.

578
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 3: She's pretty hostile to me because she thought, you know,

579
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 3: they had the killers and I was wrong. And I

580
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 3: indicated that I didn't think they had done it, and

581
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 3: she changed when she saw that DNA story because it's

582
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 3: the only match they've ever had. When they came out

583
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 3: with a story they'd had this DNA, Austin had had

584
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 3: this DNA for some months but hadn't released the news

585
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 3: the information. I talked to Jones, I said, did you

586
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 3: know anything about this? And he said, no, must be

587
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 3: a tight DA's race.

588
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 2: A little cytical about trying to use it politically. I

589
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 2: guess then, right.

590
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 3: And it was a tight DA's race because of other

591
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 3: issues I'm sure you know, and she lost. I don't

592
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 3: know if that's true or not, But now that it's

593
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 3: been what nine months, I think maybe he was right

594
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,439
Speaker 3: that they brought out the news because Margaret Moore had

595
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 3: done some work in this case, and apparently I'm told

596
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 3: she was working on perhaps releasing these guys because this

597
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 3: hangs over them. Rob Springsteen has not only an unfortunate

598
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 3: face but name. So anytime he applies for job and

599
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 3: he's in West Virginia, he's from there, and so his

600
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 3: name is known there. And even Mike Scott, his wife,

601
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 3: told me that if he goes for a job, you know,

602
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 3: they look up records they find him, and this hangs

603
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:12,879
Speaker 3: over them.

604
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 2: How long were they in custody.

605
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 3: They were in a little under ten years, that's including county, So.

606
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:23,439
Speaker 1: They haven't been exonerated. They could be arrested again. And

607
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: where is everybody now? I know that you kind of

608
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: hinted at something happened more with Maurice.

609
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 3: Maurice Hears was on his way to his sister's house.

610
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 3: He was on the way home from a job at night.

611
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 3: It was Christmas Eve's eve, and he didn't stop at

612
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 3: a stop sign up it said by the cops, and

613
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 3: the cops pulled him over. There's a cop and a

614
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,720
Speaker 3: rookie who was in training, and the more experienced cop

615
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 3: was young, and he had not been on the yogat

616
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 3: Chop for was not here when any of it was

617
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 3: going on. So he's that he had no idea who

618
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 3: Maurice Pearce was or his license plate was. But you know,

619
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 3: the cop still wanted him as long as they thought

620
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 3: these four guys did it. They pulled him over and

621
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 3: Maurice had a temper. He was hot headed and he

622
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 3: got out. The cop tried to taser him, and he

623
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 3: pulled the CoP's utility knife out of his I think

624
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 3: he was in his boot and slashed him in a

625
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 3: throat and the cop was able to rise up and

626
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 3: shoot him dead. So he was running. His sister heard

627
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 3: the shot, knew Maurice was coming home, and she said

628
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 3: to her husband, I think that's Maurice. So he was killed,

629
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 3: So he's dead. Far as Welburn, Rob Springsteen remarried. He'd

630
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 3: been married once and lives in West Virginia and Mike

631
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 3: Scott works where he's divorced. His wife said, we couldn't

632
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 3: last through what Mike went through. She was very stalwart

633
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 3: behind him. But they lived in Oklahoma for a while,

634
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,240
Speaker 3: but I don't I think she's still there. I talked

635
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 3: to him, actually, I just wanted to send him a book,

636
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 3: and he said he didn't want a book, said, I

637
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 3: don't want nothing to do with Austin or anything to

638
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 3: do with it ever.

639
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 2: Again.

640
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 3: Forrest was from Lockhart. He had a car shop over there.

641
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 3: So I found him through Facebook and called him. He

642
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,280
Speaker 3: talked to me a couple of times, and I said,

643
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 3: you know, some new things have come up.

644
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 2: Will you talk to me?

645
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 3: And he agreed to meet me at a coffee shop

646
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 3: and I waited at the coffee shop for.

647
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 2: Like an hour and a half. He never showed up.

648
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 3: And I talked to his lawyer afterwards, and he said,

649
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 3: I'm not surprised, and I wasn't either, you know, And

650
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,240
Speaker 3: I think he thought, what do I have to gain

651
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 3: by talking to her or anybody else about this?

652
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 2: The reverberations of this case just go through everybody. Absolutely.

653
00:38:58,880 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 2: Do you think most.

654
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:02,479
Speaker 1: People Ble and Austin who know this case still think

655
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: that these four guys.

656
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:05,920
Speaker 2: I think a great number of them.

657
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 3: Do you know You've studied crime and punishment and you

658
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 3: know this. People want an answer, and if an answer

659
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 3: is provided, they will accept it so that they can

660
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 3: stop thinking about it. Who killed these girls? Which was

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00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 3: on a billboard. That's where I got the title. A

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00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 3: sign company gave free billboard space to a sign saying

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00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 3: who killed these girls? In a picture of each of

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Speaker 3: the four girls on it, And many people have said,

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00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 3: every day when I went to work, I passed that

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Speaker 3: sign and it broke my heart all over again.

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Speaker 2: On the next episode of Wicked Words.

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Speaker 4: When they get back there, mister Mortimer says, that's my wife,

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00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 4: and he sinks to his knees. He tries to wipe

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00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 4: the blood off her face and she's still alive. When

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00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 4: he started talking to her and said we're here, we'll

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00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 4: help you, she was flailing her arms around like she

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00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 4: was trying to push someone away.

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Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my

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00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the Air. This has

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00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more Media Production. Alexis and

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Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Even is our sound designer.

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00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: Ellen Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis Heath does

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Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and ILSA Brink

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Speaker 1: designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen

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Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and

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Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold More.

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Speaker 1: know of a historical true crime story that could use

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Speaker 1: some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email

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