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Speaker 2: Welcome to the fastest show in politics on Bloomberg TV
Speaker 2: and Radio forty eight million. How about it we get
Speaker 2: the number the ratings from the big debate last night.
Speaker 2: We just heard from Joe Biden a short time ago.
Speaker 2: He seems to be in full voice and he's definitely
Speaker 2: staying in this race. I'm Joe Matthew alongside Kaylee Lines
Speaker 2: as we pick through the pieces here this day after
Speaker 2: the debate, and a fascinating Kayley tweet from Dave Wasserman.
Speaker 3: At the Cook Political Report.
Speaker 2: We hear from our friends at Cook pretty often, and
Speaker 2: he tweeted this while he was watching the debate, making
Speaker 2: it abundantly clear. He said that Joe Biden's insistence on
Speaker 2: running for another term, sixty six percent of voters in
Speaker 2: our swing state pole belief it is likely he will
Speaker 2: not be able to finish a second term has gravely
Speaker 2: jeopardized Democrats' prospects to defeat Donald Trump.
Speaker 4: And yet Joe Biden, speaking moments ago at a Raleigh
Speaker 4: rally in Raleigh, North Carolina, said that he intends to
Speaker 4: win North Carolina in November and win the election by extension.
Speaker 4: He also said he would not run again if he
Speaker 4: didn't believe he could do it. The question is, does
Speaker 4: is that belief shared by the American electorate and by
Speaker 4: even members of his own party after the performance in
Speaker 4: the debate last night.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this could be a temporary freak out, one that
Speaker 2: could be recovered from. We all remember the first debate
Speaker 2: for Barack Obama, but this is the stakes are a
Speaker 2: bit different, and the narrative surrounding Joe Biden's age is
Speaker 2: one that Barack Obama was not dealing with when he
Speaker 2: hit the stage with Mitt Romney.
Speaker 4: Yeah, a very very good point. And of course Democrats
Speaker 4: today are having to speak about the president and what
Speaker 4: went down last night, speaking about the alternative and former
Speaker 4: President Donald Trump as well. And we're very lucky here
Speaker 4: on Balance of Power to be joined now in studio
Speaker 4: by Democratic Congresswoman Hailey Stevens of Michigan. Thank you for
Speaker 4: being with us here on Bloomberg TV and Radio on
Speaker 4: this day after Congresswoman, I think we can all call
Speaker 4: it like we saw it last night. It was a
Speaker 4: difficult night for the president. He just said he wouldn't
Speaker 4: be running if he didn't believe that he could win.
Speaker 4: But why would a voter watching what happened last night
Speaker 4: believe that he is capable of not just beating Donald Trump,
Speaker 4: but seeing out a second term to completion.
Speaker 5: Well, he's the only one who has beaten Donald Trump
Speaker 5: and has debated him before and beaten him by seven
Speaker 5: million votes last time. And look, I'm not going to
Speaker 5: try and sugarcoat last night. It wasn't the best performance.
Speaker 5: It was shaky. I would have loved to hear the
Speaker 5: president talk more forcefully about his record. He's the one
Speaker 5: defending a woman's right to choose, he's the one standing
Speaker 5: up for abortion access. I have seen him talk about
Speaker 5: these things very forcefully. He also got an infrastructure bill done.
Speaker 5: But what crystallized last night is that people voters have
Speaker 5: had concerns about his age and about his fitness, and
Speaker 5: that now called that back into question. I personally, as
Speaker 5: a lawmaker who have done I've done big policy alongside
Speaker 5: this president I'm continuing to put my faith in him.
Speaker 5: He is in that big role to make decisions, and
Speaker 5: he has made a whole host of decisions very well,
Speaker 5: very effectively, and I'm going to continue to entrust him
Speaker 5: to do that and to speak clearly and honestly with
Speaker 5: the American people as he has done many times before.
Speaker 2: So this is something you see making its way through
Speaker 2: the convention, and Joe Biden is going to be the
Speaker 2: nominee obviously in your eyes, because a lot of people
Speaker 2: last night were talking about your governor. Governor Whitmer, did
Speaker 2: you talk to the governor after the debates to get
Speaker 2: her impressions on how things went.
Speaker 5: I talked to her a lot. I have not talked
Speaker 5: to her since the debate. I think she's fantastic. She
Speaker 5: has done a great job.
Speaker 2: This whole idea of drafting her in a contested convention, though,
Speaker 2: is that crazy talk?
Speaker 5: Well, look, George Packer talks about creative thinking to save democracy,
Speaker 5: and many Americans know that's what's on the line here.
Speaker 5: I mean, we have a former, twice impeached, convicted felon
Speaker 5: president who again couldn't announce January sixth, wouldn't say that
Speaker 5: he would embrace the results of a free and fair election,
Speaker 5: double down on abortion bands saying that the overturning of
Speaker 5: Roe was a great thing. And I know that Gretchen
Speaker 5: Wimmer is a fantastic surrogate for Joe Biden, and she
Speaker 5: has been standing alongside this administration and alongside him. Coming
Speaker 5: out of last night, I'm excited for her future. Again,
Speaker 5: that's her decision to make down the road in terms
Speaker 5: of what's going to happen and what's going to unfold
Speaker 5: over these next series of months. There's an amazing ground
Speaker 5: operat in Michigan and around this Biden campaign, dozens of
Speaker 5: field offices, sleeves rolled up, campaign staff, working hard, recruiting
Speaker 5: people for weekend events. Yes, last night was a tough night.
Speaker 5: I've worked on tough elections before, tough presidential elections. So
Speaker 5: we're just gonna have to roll up our sleeves and
Speaker 5: continue to see this through.
Speaker 4: But as you described this as tough, and we have
Speaker 4: known even prior to tonight that this was likely to
Speaker 4: be a very close election decided by a very small
Speaker 4: group of voters, including in your state of Michigan, one
Speaker 4: of the critical swing states here. Would it be less
Speaker 4: tough would it be easier if the candidate wasn't Joe Biden.
Speaker 4: I guess my question, is Joe Biden the only person
Speaker 4: in your eyes capable of beating Donald Trump? Or could
Speaker 4: someone else do it just as easily.
Speaker 5: Well, look, and I understand why you're asking me these questions,
Speaker 5: because that's your job. And certainly the hypotheticals, right, you know,
Speaker 5: it would have been nice if Donald Trump decided not
Speaker 5: to run again. It would have been nice if maybe
Speaker 5: another candidate could have beaten him in that major primary
Speaker 5: that he had. This man is back, He's told us
Speaker 5: he wants to be a dictator. On day one. We've
Speaker 5: got a guy who's who has won before against Donald Trump, overwhelmingly,
Speaker 5: has an incredible track record, has a strong vice president who,
Speaker 5: by the way, right now is really shining. Listen to
Speaker 5: her on the national stage right now. Look at the
Speaker 5: track record, look at the trustworthiness. And so, yeah, we
Speaker 5: could sit here and say, gosh, it would be great
Speaker 5: to have some you know, perfect hypothetical candidate coming out
Speaker 5: of the sun that's going to save us all. But
Speaker 5: that's not the system. And maybe we are in a
Speaker 5: moment of doing some deep thinking around reforms for our democracy.
Speaker 5: You know, there's a lot of things that haven't been
Speaker 5: adjusted or changed, a lot of frustrations. We've got ballooning
Speaker 5: debt and deficit under a multitude of presidents. We've got
Speaker 5: a problem at our border. We've got you know, tight
Speaker 5: majorities that just pendulum swing between five seats here, five
Speaker 5: seats there. And yes, we have sometimes a frustratingly undemocratic
Speaker 5: part that gets us presidents of the United States. When
Speaker 5: you don't win the popular vote, but you win by
Speaker 5: ten thousand votes between a handful of states, that feels
Speaker 5: frustrating to the American public.
Speaker 3: Well, we really appreciate this conversation.
Speaker 2: I know you're not a spokesman for Joe Biden, but
Speaker 2: it's important to have this talk right now because people
Speaker 2: are trying to figure things out today. And one of
Speaker 2: the big issues that you know a lot about, because
Speaker 2: it might mean more to Michigan than some other states,
Speaker 2: is the issue of tariffs. Joe Biden has his approach
Speaker 2: on this, specifically when it comes.
Speaker 3: To ev s. Speaking of Michigan.
Speaker 2: Donald Trump has a very different approach, and he got
Speaker 2: into this was one of the few moments of policy
Speaker 2: I might be able to points to you from last night.
Speaker 3: Listen to Donald Trump from the debate.
Speaker 6: It's just going to cause countries that have been ripping
Speaker 6: us off for years, like China and many others. In
Speaker 6: all fairness to China, it's going to just force them
Speaker 6: to pay us a lot of money, reduce our deficit tremendously,
Speaker 6: and give us a lot of power for other things.
Speaker 2: Or will it do something else like increase inflation at
Speaker 2: a time when we might be on the cusp of
Speaker 2: meeting it.
Speaker 5: Well, look, we know that President trump China policy was tariffs,
Speaker 5: and that did contribute to inflation. President Biden's approach has
Speaker 5: been aggressive public private partnerships. Industrial policy to the likes
Speaker 5: of this nation has never seen. You can look to
Speaker 5: the Chips and Science Act, the fifty two billion dollars
Speaker 5: that's been put into the marketplace by the federal government
Speaker 5: to say that we're going to start making chips here
Speaker 5: in the United States of America. That was met within
Speaker 5: the first quarter of its signing Joe with two hundred
Speaker 5: billion dollars of private sector contributions. These are things that
Speaker 5: are paying for themselves. We're also seeing this with the
Speaker 5: energy transition, where automotive industry is going, where ethanol is
Speaker 5: going tax credits that are also working for us. I
Speaker 5: think President Biden did the right thing saying, hey, I'm
Speaker 5: putting teariffs down because I'm not letting cheap evs flood
Speaker 5: our market. That's what's really frustrating with the Chinese Communist
Speaker 5: Party and how they do business.
Speaker 4: Finally, as you seek to legislative accomplishments like the Chips Act,
Speaker 4: obviously we are deep in this election cycle. What can
Speaker 4: we expect from you and your colleagues between now and
Speaker 4: the election? Is anything robust actually going to be able
Speaker 4: to get across the finish line?
Speaker 5: Well, you know, it's summertime and that senioritis just kicking
Speaker 5: in a little bit, you know, that itchiness to be home,
Speaker 5: be in your district. Shaking hands. Okay, you know, the
Speaker 5: elections are in some ways closer than we think, but
Speaker 5: we do have a whole host of work to get done.
Speaker 5: In One of the bright lights is this AI task
Speaker 5: Force that I'm sitting on and we're meeting very regularly.
Speaker 5: We've gotten direction from both Republican leadership and Democratic leadership
Speaker 5: that we need to, you know, come forward with some
Speaker 5: ideas that there's a real want to pass some legislation
Speaker 5: around AI, if it's looking at regulations or even more so,
Speaker 5: protecting people's privacy, but also ensuring that we can bolster
Speaker 5: innovation and harness the good, dictate the rules of the
Speaker 5: road around artificial intelligence for our public health sector, for sciences,
Speaker 5: and for small businesses across America. So I'm remaining pretty
Speaker 5: dedicated to that activity.
Speaker 2: This is an important conversation for us at Bloomberg, as
Speaker 2: you know, so come back not the day after a debate,
Speaker 2: and let's.
Speaker 3: Have a real talk about it.
Speaker 5: Talk about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, And what you're going to get done in
Speaker 2: the Lane duck session. I think that's going to be
Speaker 2: the biggest story of this Congress. Great to see you,
Speaker 2: Congressoman Haley Stevens with us at that's able, the Democrat
Speaker 2: from Michigan. There you have it, Kayley, from someone who's
Speaker 2: there and a Democrat who needs to make the case.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast Ken
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Speaker 2: The President is about to speak. Welcome to the fastest
Speaker 2: show in politics. As Joe Biden returns to the campaign
Speaker 2: trail this day after a challenged performance in his first
Speaker 2: debate with Donald Trump and Atlanta. I'm Joe Matthew alongside
Speaker 2: Kaylee Lines in Washington and Kaylee the President is hearing
Speaker 2: intense criticism and even in some cases calls to drop
Speaker 2: out of the race. Calls that are coming from inside
Speaker 2: the House.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is members of both the Democrat and Republican
Speaker 4: Party who, in the aftermath of the debate are questioning
Speaker 4: Joe Biden's ability to carry on as the Democratic nominee.
Speaker 4: Keeping in mind that this debate happened so early in June,
Speaker 4: before Donald Trump or Joe Biden are the official party nominees,
Speaker 4: the conventions have not yet taken place, and after the
Speaker 4: events of last night and the times halting and difficult
Speaker 4: performance that Joe Biden put up, there is an open
Speaker 4: question as to what exactly is going to go down
Speaker 4: in Chicago and August and.
Speaker 2: Even today in Raleigh, North Carolina. If you're with us
Speaker 2: on Bloomberg TV or on YouTube, you see live shots
Speaker 2: from the podium as we prepare to hear from Joe
Speaker 2: Biden for the first time since Atlanta last night. A
Speaker 2: frog in his throat at best, I guess a cold
Speaker 2: at worst. I'm not sure what we heard exactly there, Kaylee,
Speaker 2: but we brought special coverage of the CNN presidential debate
Speaker 2: last evening.
Speaker 3: Here on Bloomberry.
Speaker 2: People were struck by his inability in some cases to
Speaker 2: articulate numbers and ideas and halting performance. He even froze
Speaker 2: up at one moment pretty early in the debate. If
Speaker 2: you want to hear a taste of that right now,
Speaker 2: here's Joe Biden from Atlanta last night.
Speaker 7: Stars in our healthcare system making sure that we're able
Speaker 7: to make every single solitary person eligible for what I've
Speaker 7: been able to do with the with the COVID, I
Speaker 7: should be with dealing with everything we have to do
Speaker 7: with Look, if we finally beat medicare.
Speaker 2: Donald Trump took the ball and ran with that, Kayley.
Speaker 2: That was the moment last night where people in some
Speaker 2: cases started to tune out and other cases expressed deep
Speaker 2: concern about what was going on.
Speaker 4: Democrats, namely, Yeah, and it happened very early on. We
Speaker 4: were not fifteen minutes into the debate, when certainly social
Speaker 4: media started to become in it tizzy, and of course
Speaker 4: Biden's inability at times to articulate his message, to properly
Speaker 4: state his own policy positions and facts of his administration
Speaker 4: kind of overshadowed the facts that Donald Trump, for his part,
Speaker 4: told litany of falsehoods, misstating facts of his own lying,
Speaker 4: not being checked by the moderators on CNN, but not
Speaker 4: being effectively checked by Joe Biden either.
Speaker 2: They did decide to do that after the fact. By
Speaker 2: the way, the moderators allowed Donald Trump to make at
Speaker 2: least thirty false claims and Biden to make nine, according
Speaker 2: to the post debate analysis on CNN. Look, when he
Speaker 2: comes out, We're going to bring you live to North Carolina.
Speaker 2: Everyone is wondering how Joe Biden is sounding and is
Speaker 2: feeling today, what his posture will be at this event
Speaker 2: where they're really trying to wind up the crowd. Kley,
Speaker 2: but we have a chance to talk to Steve Dupree,
Speaker 2: the owner of Dupre Companies, the former chair of the
Speaker 2: New Hampshire Republican Party, who we've stayed in touch with
Speaker 2: since the New Hampshire primary, was formerly backing Nicky Haley
Speaker 2: on the campaign trail, and as we wake up this
Speaker 2: morning to a world that feels a bit different and
Speaker 2: more assured according to some for Donald Trump, we wanted
Speaker 2: to talk to Steve about the way this is going.
Speaker 2: Mister Dupree, welcome back. It's great to see you on
Speaker 2: Bloomberg TV and radio. I wonder what was going through
Speaker 2: your mind as you were watching this last night, or
Speaker 2: how you felt this morning. If you feel like Donald
Speaker 2: Trump is closer to the White House.
Speaker 8: Well, watching it last night was discouraging on both fronts.
Speaker 8: On the one hand, we have a former president who's
Speaker 8: convicted felon, faces more felony charges, who has forty out
Speaker 8: of forty five or some number of senior cabinet level
Speaker 8: of people in his past administration won't endorse him telling
Speaker 8: falsehood's left and right. And on the other hand, we
Speaker 8: have a president who's conducted himself honorably, restored relations with allies,
Speaker 8: handle the Ukraine and the China situations well, but clearly
Speaker 8: did not show the kind of mental acuity that's expected
Speaker 8: of a president. I mean, I think it was the
Speaker 8: worst debate performance, certainly in the history of televised debates,
Speaker 8: and President Biden had one task, which was to show
Speaker 8: that he's up for the job, and he failed last night.
Speaker 8: You know, I think it's a direct byproduct which happens
Speaker 8: in every administration where they product the incumbent. Had President
Speaker 8: Biden been subjected to somewhat of a primary challenge been
Speaker 8: in New Hampshire or some other places, either he would
Speaker 8: have been sharper or the Democratic Party would have realized
Speaker 8: that they had a challenge.
Speaker 4: Well, and now there is much speculation this morning Steve
Speaker 4: as to whether or not the Democratic Party, or at
Speaker 4: least key figureheads within it, including the First Lady Joe Biden,
Speaker 4: are going to begin to press Joe Biden to consider
Speaker 4: leaving this race and allowing someone else to become the
Speaker 4: official nominee for Donald Trump. Though does he need Joe
Speaker 4: Biden to be the nominee to win this thing?
Speaker 8: I think certainly, you know, notwithstanding the fact that he
Speaker 8: has all of that baggage, and he had all those
Speaker 8: thirty plus false statements, he came across as vigorous, as animated,
Speaker 8: as in good mental and physical shape, and the contrast
Speaker 8: was disheartening certainly the Democrats, but disheartening for every American,
Speaker 8: regardless of who you support. So I think it obviously
Speaker 8: President Biden would be a strong candidate, notwithstanding last night,
Speaker 8: just from what we've seen in the polls. But if
Speaker 8: it opens up and there were a new nominee, who
Speaker 8: knows who that person could be and whether they could
Speaker 8: mount the kind of campaign you'd needed. But certainly last
Speaker 8: night's debate gave President Trump a clear win, and it'll
Speaker 8: be very interesting to see the polls over the next
Speaker 8: few days, which were showing a tightening to the race,
Speaker 8: whether that remains the same.
Speaker 2: You've been at this for a minute, Steve. You know
Speaker 2: what it's like to be a delegate at a convention.
Speaker 2: You don't buy this talk of a contested convention, right,
Speaker 2: This is fantasy journalists, isn't it?
Speaker 8: Generally it is. But certainly if there ever were a
Speaker 8: case where somebody stepped down and you had an open convention,
Speaker 8: this might be it. It really depends on whether the
Speaker 8: Democratic Party stays behind President Biden, which it seems they're
Speaker 8: doing right now, or whether they start to move away
Speaker 8: from him. And Frank, I think you're going to see
Speaker 8: a lot of the Democratic operatives watching the poll numbers
Speaker 8: over the next few days and seeing if the results
Speaker 8: of the primary the debate rather start to make these
Speaker 8: polls go away.
Speaker 4: Well here at Bloomberg, obviously we do like to look
Speaker 4: at the data and look at the polling data, but
Speaker 4: we also like to look at the financial data on fundraising.
Speaker 4: After for two months in a row, in April and May,
Speaker 4: the Biden and the DNC effort was outraised by Donald
Speaker 4: Trump and the RNC. Interestingly, though, based on the data
Speaker 4: we're getting from the campaigns today, the Biden campaign says
Speaker 4: yesterday and part of today it raised fourteen million. Donald
Speaker 4: Trump's campaign says it raised eight million after the debate.
Speaker 4: Is that telling to you in some way.
Speaker 1: Steve.
Speaker 8: No, I don't think so, because President Trump had two
Speaker 8: incredible months and virtually erased a large part of the
Speaker 8: gap between between the two. So I don't think this
Speaker 8: overnight fundraising. I think people loyal to the president decided
Speaker 8: they better pony up and show their support. So I
Speaker 8: don't really think. I don't read a lot to that
Speaker 8: into that. I really do think though, polling over the
Speaker 8: next few days will show whether President Biden maintains the
Speaker 8: level of support and what looked to be a closing race,
Speaker 8: or whether it starts to fall away and there's nothing
Speaker 8: that will increase the chatter more to try to get
Speaker 8: him to step down. Then the polls diverging substantially over
Speaker 8: the next week.
Speaker 2: We talked to Governor Chris Sninu just a couple of
Speaker 2: days ago. Steve talked about his evolution and why he
Speaker 2: plans to vote for Donald Trump. How many former Nicky
Speaker 2: Haley supporters planned to do the same following Christino in
Speaker 2: that direction in the state of New Hampshire.
Speaker 8: I think a fair number of them will. I mean
Speaker 8: Christininu has said, Look, I disagree with President Trump and
Speaker 8: the way he conducts himself. I don't like how erradic
Speaker 8: he is and how he's treated our allies. But a
Speaker 8: Republican administration has more to it than just a president,
Speaker 8: and he thinks that more can be accomplished there. So
Speaker 8: I do think some number of those will come over.
Speaker 8: But if this race stays close, and if the result
Speaker 8: of this debate doesn't worsen the poll numbers for President Biden,
Speaker 8: some percentage of those people in the five contested states
Speaker 8: will make the difference.
Speaker 4: All right. Steve Dufree, owner of d pre company's former
Speaker 4: chair of the New Hampshire Republican Party, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch
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Speaker 2: As we get back to the debate last night that
Speaker 2: which Democrats are freaking out this morning and Republicans are
Speaker 2: celebrating right or wrong.
Speaker 3: Oh you didn't see the debate. Here's a taste of
Speaker 3: Joe Biden and Donald Trump from last night.
Speaker 7: Making sure that we continue to strengthen our healthcare system,
Speaker 7: making sure that we're able to make every single solitary
Speaker 7: person eligible for what I've been able to do with
Speaker 7: the with the COVID, I should be with dealing with
Speaker 7: everything we have to do with Look if we finally
Speaker 7: beat medicare.
Speaker 2: Okay, that was about fifteen minutes into the debate. It
Speaker 2: didn't get a lot better from there. As we assemble
Speaker 2: our panel for their take, Max Burns is back with us.
Speaker 2: The Democratics just at third degree strategies. Spend a while
Speaker 2: Lisa Kamusa Miller Republican strategist, former RNC Comms director, host
Speaker 2: of the Friday Reporter podcast, Max I keep hearing that
Speaker 2: there's going to be a different person nominated by the
Speaker 2: Democrats to run for president in twenty twenty four, Gavin Newsom,
Speaker 2: Governor Whitmer. Are we being serious here or is this
Speaker 2: going to be the nominee for Democrats?
Speaker 9: Well, I think Democrats do have a tendency to panic
Speaker 9: after bad performances like this. We saw it in twenty
Speaker 9: twelve when Barack Obama had a bust of a first
Speaker 9: debate against Mitt Romney, and there was a brief talk
Speaker 9: about potentially having him drop out and endorse Mark Zuckerberg.
Speaker 9: But I do think that over the next couple of
Speaker 9: weeks this will fade. But that doesn't mean that concerns
Speaker 9: are overblown. I mean, this was a rough performance, and
Speaker 9: much like Obama's, his team is going to have to
Speaker 9: come together with President Biden and actually discuss what went
Speaker 9: wrong and see what can be course corrected here.
Speaker 2: Lisa Cabusa Miller literally drove off the road. She's pulled
Speaker 2: her car over to talk to us. Lisa, It's good
Speaker 2: to have you back. Do we call this a win?
Speaker 2: For Donald Trump or simply a loss for Joe Biden.
Speaker 10: This last night was such a gigantic disappointment for the
Speaker 10: American people too. I'm not really sure where to start,
Speaker 10: but what I will say is this is a gigantic
Speaker 10: loss for Joe Biden. I was so distracted by Joe
Speaker 10: Biden's behavior that I didn't even hear words that came
Speaker 10: out of Donald Trump's mouth. And if that's the way
Speaker 10: I consumed that debate last night, I suspect that that's
Speaker 10: very similar to the way that many many others did
Speaker 10: as well. And as much as I respect Max's point
Speaker 10: of view about course correction, to me, that was just
Speaker 10: so far gone and his behavior it just Joe Biden
Speaker 10: lost the election last night in my opinion.
Speaker 2: Wow, you can weigh in on that point, Max, But
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you if you think last
Speaker 2: night's performance makes it more likely that Joe Biden debates
Speaker 2: again that makes good on this deal to debate in
Speaker 2: September to course correct to make up for last night,
Speaker 2: or much less likely because the staff.
Speaker 3: Will not let him on another stage with Donald Trump again.
Speaker 9: Well, Joe Biden has already said that he's eager to
Speaker 9: debate again in September. That's going to be an interesting situation.
Speaker 9: I personally think it was very lucky for Biden that
Speaker 9: this was taking place in June instead of September or October, because,
Speaker 9: as we tend to see from debates going back to
Speaker 9: nineteen fifty two, they don't necessarily move polls for very long.
Speaker 9: Usually the effect wears off in about three weeks. And
Speaker 9: that's going to be a blessing for Joe Biden right now.
Speaker 9: Because as much as I believe what Joe Biden said
Speaker 9: up there was factual and was correct, I agree, I
Speaker 9: don't think the American people heard as much of what
Speaker 9: Joe Biden was saying because it was such a shockingly
Speaker 9: different Biden than they're used to seeing from twenty twenties debates.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know, Max, I mean, I don't know
Speaker 2: what it shocked this up to. He spent a week
Speaker 2: at Camp David, they had nothing but time put into
Speaker 2: the preparation here. I don't know if that was a
Speaker 2: frog in his throat, or if the White House is correct,
Speaker 2: he came back with some kind of a cold. Maybe
Speaker 2: they should have said that before he started talking in
Speaker 2: a way that was jarring when people heard the first
Speaker 2: words that came out of his mouth last night. But
Speaker 2: I think the question is about consistency, right, I mean,
Speaker 2: look at all the speeches at the White House.
Speaker 3: About half the time he sounds kind of like that.
Speaker 2: It's just different when you're in a competitive debate and
Speaker 2: you're over prepared.
Speaker 3: Some people might even suggest, but what.
Speaker 2: About next year, what about four years from now, Max,
Speaker 2: what will he sound like then?
Speaker 11: Well?
Speaker 9: I think those raised serious questions, and in many ways,
Speaker 9: yesterday was a tale of two Joe Biden's because after
Speaker 9: the debate, at a post debate rally in Atlanta, Joe
Speaker 9: Biden was on stage, cracking jokes. He sounded great, he
Speaker 9: was sharp, he was on point. And the one thing
Speaker 9: I was hearing from a lot of Democratic strategists and
Speaker 9: even members of Congress is where is that Joe Biden?
Speaker 9: For the ninety minutes that he was on the air
Speaker 9: in front of tens of millions of Americans. There is now,
Speaker 9: I think a resurgence of questions internally about whether Joe
Speaker 9: Biden's team is prepping him correctly, whether this situation could
Speaker 9: have been mitigated, or whether this is just the reality
Speaker 9: of running a candidate who is eighty one years old.
Speaker 3: Do you have any answers to those questions, Lisa, what
Speaker 3: do you think?
Speaker 10: Well, I mean, what is really sad is this is
Speaker 10: not a behavioral and it's not a performance issue. This
Speaker 10: is the fact that he is absolutely at an age
Speaker 10: where this is beyond his capability. And that is really
Speaker 10: my point of view. And you know that I'm not
Speaker 10: terribly fond of the Republican nominee either, but this in
Speaker 10: favor this Joe is incredibly concerning. We watched a very
Speaker 10: strong Joe Biden at the State of Union and it's
Speaker 10: only been three or four months later, and he has
Speaker 10: clearly declined. And now we're considering the fact that he
Speaker 10: will be not declining more over the course of the
Speaker 10: next four years. That to me, it's beyond the pale.
Speaker 10: There is no coming back from this, and I think
Speaker 10: the Democrats have a very very good reason to be concerned.
Speaker 10: They are seeding the win and seeding the White House
Speaker 10: to Donald Trump if they continue to put Joe Biden
Speaker 10: on the ballot in the fall.
Speaker 2: There's no coming back from this. Lisa, you just said
Speaker 2: Joe Biden lost the election last night. We're going to
Speaker 2: have some time for Donald Trump here. But Max, is
Speaker 2: there a world in which some sort of deal is
Speaker 2: struck or does that mean a Kamala Harris run for
Speaker 2: the next turn?
Speaker 3: What the heck would happen?
Speaker 9: Well, the big problem here is that the question of
Speaker 9: who is not a clear one, and the people who
Speaker 9: are calling for an open convention or Joe Biden stepping
Speaker 9: aside severely underestimate the chaos that would cause in the party.
Speaker 9: It wouldn't just be expensive and incredibly polarizing, but it
Speaker 9: would effectively pit all of the democratic parties demographic groups
Speaker 9: against each other in a way that would be incredible
Speaker 9: disabling for the party that's currently trying to promote a
Speaker 9: message of unity and a message that democracy is on
Speaker 9: the ballot here. It would create a mess that I
Speaker 9: think a lot of people are not aware of because
Speaker 9: we haven't seen a convention like that in our lifetimes.
Speaker 3: That's for sure.
Speaker 2: Even though it's the fantasy of journalists every four years,
Speaker 2: no one really thought it was going to happen. Lisa,
Speaker 2: is that how this ends for Democrats in Chicago?
Speaker 10: You know, it's hard to tell.
Speaker 7: Joe.
Speaker 10: There's a lot. I think Max is right. I think
Speaker 10: this is a lot more difficult than people understand, and
Speaker 10: it would create a tremendous amount of turmoil. But I
Speaker 10: also think too that it's really kind of the Democrat's
Speaker 10: fault in the first place that no one stood up
Speaker 10: and said that maybe it was time to consider someone
Speaker 10: other than Joe Biden. And I think a lot of
Speaker 10: the blame sort of comes to be laid at the
Speaker 10: feet of the people at the White House who haven't
Speaker 10: let us see the president more readily, haven't let us
Speaker 10: see in press conferences and other events. To me, this
Speaker 10: is something that probably could have been avoided. And so
Speaker 10: now we talk about the possibility of whether or not
Speaker 10: it's draft some of the strongest democratic governors across the country,
Speaker 10: whether it's other elected officials that are proven and younger
Speaker 10: and smarter and potentially could take on Donald Trump with
Speaker 10: one hundred and thirty some days to go. Joe, it
Speaker 10: just to me seems like it is incredibly frustrating and
Speaker 10: upsetting that we're here, and I think a lot of
Speaker 10: the blame goes to the party itself.
Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you what, CNN took no time and
Speaker 2: made no effort to fact check this debate in real time,
Speaker 2: and but that I really mean the former president.
Speaker 3: Of course, they showed up later and did all of that.
Speaker 3: If you decided to watch TV all night.
Speaker 2: They found that the moderators Jake Tapper and Dana Bash
Speaker 2: allowed Donald Trump to make at least thirty thirty false
Speaker 2: claims and Biden to make nine, according to the post
Speaker 2: debate CNN analysis, Max, let's talk about Donald Trump for
Speaker 2: a moment. If Joe Biden allows him to become the
Speaker 2: next president. Here, what did we learn about Donald Trump
Speaker 2: last night? He was saying things, he was taking credit
Speaker 2: for things that Joe Biden done there, saying things that
Speaker 2: were patently false.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 2: What can Democrats do to blunt that approach? Because it
Speaker 2: didn't work last night?
Speaker 9: Well, I think we've learned that as the American electorate
Speaker 9: has changed a lot since twenty twenty, donald Trump really hasn't.
Speaker 9: This was essentially Trump playing his greatest hits of grievance,
Speaker 9: making up false claims about how Mexicans have stolen the moon.
Speaker 9: And what was so shocking to me was looking at
Speaker 9: people like Jake Tapper who offered no pushback. At one point,
Speaker 9: especially jarring was Joe Biden asking Donald Trump to condemn
Speaker 9: the proud boys for their violence. On January sixth, Trump
Speaker 9: ignored him, of course, But then Jake Tapper didn't feel
Speaker 9: that that very consequential question even merited a cursory follow up.
Speaker 9: So whatever CNN was trying to do at this debate,
Speaker 9: it was certainly not any kind of journalistically rigorous attempt
Speaker 9: to learn what these candidates actually believe.
Speaker 2: We can criticize the moderators all night here, but how
Speaker 2: about the candidate, the presumptive nominee for your party, Lisa,
Speaker 2: how dangerous do you see Donald Trump as being for
Speaker 2: the future of.
Speaker 3: The GOP.
Speaker 11: Ugh?
Speaker 10: I mean, you know how I feel about this. It's
Speaker 10: tremendously dangerous. And it is the kind of thing that
Speaker 10: even my smartest Republican friends who don't necessarily agree with
Speaker 10: Donald Trump are saying they fundamentally cannot pull the lever
Speaker 10: or make the choice or Joe Biden that they are
Speaker 10: going to hold their nose. This is the phrasing that
Speaker 10: I'm hearing from a colleagues of mine and vote for
Speaker 10: Donald Trump because they fundamentally believe in the policies that
Speaker 10: he and the people he'll put in place will enact.
Speaker 10: And so that to me is concerning because They are
Speaker 10: willing to step aside from truth and from integrity and
Speaker 10: support a candidate that will will advance policies that they
Speaker 10: agree with in in deference to another candidate who they
Speaker 10: know is not qualified and is not ready to.
Speaker 9: Serve for another four years.
Speaker 10: So to me, that is it's troublesome because Donald Trump
Speaker 10: absolutely and he I think Max is absolutely on point.
Speaker 10: What he said is totally true. Donald Trump is exactly
Speaker 10: the same as he has always been. The electorate has changed,
Speaker 10: but he is not he had. He consistently says things
Speaker 10: that are at false and people don't care. They're willing
Speaker 10: to support him in spite of it.
Speaker 3: What a night.
Speaker 2: This is exactly the conversation I needed today now that
Speaker 2: we have any idea what's going to happen, But great
Speaker 2: to hear from both of you and get inside your
Speaker 2: heads for a moment. Lisa Kimussa Miller of course, Republican strategist,
Speaker 2: former RNC Comms director, host of The Friday Reporter podcast,
Speaker 2: and that's Max Burns. Don't be a stranger, Max, Democratic strategist,
Speaker 2: Third degree Strategies.
Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Kens
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Speaker 2: Friday edition of Balance of Power. You made it to
Speaker 2: the threshold of the weekend. And if you were up
Speaker 2: half the night like half the country watching the debate
Speaker 2: last night, rest is near. The Supreme Court makes news
Speaker 2: again today. We're going to have one more day after this.
Speaker 2: This is kind of a big deal here, all right.
Speaker 2: Monday is the last opinion day, and we can tell
Speaker 2: you that officially that came from the Chief Justice earlier today.
Speaker 2: That means the ruling on presidential immunity, which will give
Speaker 2: us a sense of whether there will be a January
Speaker 2: sixth trial for Donald Trump. That'll emerge on Monday morning.
Speaker 3: Just after ten am. What we did learn today.
Speaker 2: Is some of the charges, the obstruction, specifically the obstruction
Speaker 2: charges facing Donald Trump with regard to what happened on
Speaker 2: January along with several of the January sixth rioters, that
Speaker 2: the convicted rioters, the defendants, those obstruction charges will in
Speaker 2: many cases not be allowed.
Speaker 3: This will make it much more difficult for.
Speaker 2: Jack Smith to charge Trump for prosecutors to charge rioters
Speaker 2: with this idea of obstructing and official proceeding. We've talked
Speaker 2: about this before. It goes back to two thousand and two,
Speaker 2: a law written in the age of Enron, when obstructing
Speaker 2: was shredding documents, hiding papers. In this case, obstructing an
Speaker 2: official preceding the certification of an election, Not so much.
Speaker 3: According to the Supreme Court six ' three ruling.
Speaker 2: And it's where we start with Leah Littman, the professor
Speaker 2: of law at the University of Michigan Law School and
Speaker 2: co host of the Strict Scrutiny podcast. Leah, great to
Speaker 2: see you, thank you for being with us, and I
Speaker 2: wonder what you make of this ruling, particularly how the
Speaker 2: various justices sided on this. It did not fall along
Speaker 2: so called party lines or ideological lines. What do you
Speaker 2: make of the Court's ruling.
Speaker 11: I think it was expected from the oral argument, and
Speaker 11: while the Court's decision didn't fall exactly along ideological lines,
Speaker 11: it was still six ' three mostly along ideological lines.
Speaker 11: So you had the Chief Justice in the majority writing
Speaker 11: for himself and four other Republican appointees together with Justice Jackson.
Speaker 11: And Justice Jackson actually wrote separately to further explain her vote,
Speaker 11: and then the dissent was written by Justice Barrett and
Speaker 11: she was joined by the two other Democratic appointees on
Speaker 11: the Court Justices. So to Mayor and Kagan, and I
Speaker 11: think what's interesting about the opinion is really two things.
Speaker 11: One relates to Donald Trump's case and the other just
Speaker 11: relates to what it says about the Supreme Court. And
Speaker 11: if you read the opinion in Fisher, I think part
Speaker 11: of what is notable about it is the Court is
Speaker 11: not just focusing on the text of the statute. Because
Speaker 11: the text of the statute under which many January sixth
Speaker 11: defendants were convicted as otherwise obstructing and official proceeding, it
Speaker 11: doesn't say anything about documents, records, or evidence. And instead,
Speaker 11: what the Chief Justices majority said is, well, look the
Speaker 11: other sections in the statute. Those talk about documents and evidence.
Speaker 11: And we know that Congress was thinking about Enron when
Speaker 11: it enacted this law. So therefore we're going to read
Speaker 11: in this kind of additional requirement, the prosecutors have to
Speaker 11: show that whatever the defendant did to obstruct the proceeding
Speaker 11: involves some obstruction of records, documents, and evidence, so it's
Speaker 11: kind of interesting and that it's not very textualist, even
Speaker 11: though we think about the Republican appointees as textualists.
Speaker 2: And then the second Justice Barrett talks about textual backflips
Speaker 2: that were done in this opinion.
Speaker 3: Do you disagree?
Speaker 11: No, I think she's right, and that's why I think
Speaker 11: it's interesting that Justice Jackson wrote separately, because her separate
Speaker 11: writing basically says, look, you can't resolve this case in
Speaker 11: the way the majority did just based on the text.
Speaker 11: But I am voting way because I consider Congress's purpose
Speaker 11: in enacting the statute, and Congress's purpose was about the
Speaker 11: destruction of evidence and records. So I think both Justice
Speaker 11: Jackson and Justice Barrett are correct that the majority had
Speaker 11: to kind of do textual backflips and couldn't just rely
Speaker 11: on the text of the law in order to get them,
Speaker 11: where as Justice Barrett said, they wanted to go because
Speaker 11: they just couldn't believe Congress meant what it said.
Speaker 3: Fascinating.
Speaker 2: As we spend time with the Olipman, Professor of Law
Speaker 2: at the University of Michigan Law School, we've got a
Speaker 2: big one coming. The granddaddy of at least this session
Speaker 2: comes on Monday, Leah presidential immunity. This could go a
Speaker 2: couple of different ways. Can I ask you before you
Speaker 2: weigh in on what might happen? Why the heck it
Speaker 2: has taken so long? Why does this have to go
Speaker 2: to the last day?
Speaker 11: I mean, I think it's very puzzling, and it's in
Speaker 11: a lot of ways concerning because the Supreme Court's delay
Speaker 11: in the Trump Community case is further jeopardizing the prospect
Speaker 11: of a pre election trial and pre election verdict on
Speaker 11: the very serious election interference charges. You know, when you
Speaker 11: have a former president running for re election and that
Speaker 11: former president is alleged to have interfered with the peaceful
Speaker 11: transition of power, I think it's a pretty important to
Speaker 11: send that case to a jury before the election. And
Speaker 11: yet the Supreme Court's dilatory actions in this case have
Speaker 11: really minimized the prospect of a pre election verdict, you know.
Speaker 11: Special Council Jack Smith originally asked the Court to take
Speaker 11: the case in December. The Court declined to do so
Speaker 11: and waited until February. Then it scheduled the oral argument
Speaker 11: for two months away. Now it's taken them, you know,
Speaker 11: two months and more to reach a decision, even though
Speaker 11: it has acted much more quickly in many other cases,
Speaker 11: including the disqualification case out of Colorado about whether Donald
Speaker 11: Trump could even appear on the ballot. So I think
Speaker 11: it's very concerning. Again, another reason why it's concerning is
Speaker 11: because of the arguments Donald Trump was making. You know,
Speaker 11: those arguments were so broad and outlandish that presidents could
Speaker 11: never be said to criminal laws. You would think it
Speaker 11: wouldn't take that much time to kind of say, whatever
Speaker 11: the scope of presidential immunity, this isn't it.
Speaker 3: Well, Okay, So if the delay is maybe political, will
Speaker 3: the ruling be.
Speaker 11: I mean, we have to wait to see. I think
Speaker 11: in many respects, the Supreme Court has already done what
Speaker 11: Donald Trump most wanted, and that was to delay the
Speaker 11: trial in his case and to prolong the proceedings. Because
Speaker 11: when Donald Trump originally asked the Court to hear this case,
Speaker 11: he asked them to schedule it for next term. Now
Speaker 11: the Supreme Court didn't do that, but instead by dragging
Speaker 11: it out until the end of this term and extending
Speaker 11: this term into July, which itself is quite rare, they've
Speaker 11: given him a lot of the delay that they've asked for.
Speaker 11: So even if they don't completely embrace his arguments, he
Speaker 11: already has a significant win.
Speaker 2: That's really something. This is going to happen at ten
Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning on my to what extent could
Speaker 2: it impact the outcome of the January sixth trial? If
Speaker 2: only in timing here will there be time if this
Speaker 2: unlocks a trial for Jack Smith to get this started
Speaker 2: or complete it even before the election.
Speaker 11: I think that will partially depend on the ruling that
Speaker 11: they issue. If their ruling is just to straight up
Speaker 11: we affirm the d C Circuits opinion, there's some possibility
Speaker 11: of a pre election trial, although you know, Judge Chuckkin,
Speaker 11: the trial judge in the case, had said there would
Speaker 11: have to be eighty some days of pre trial proceedings,
Speaker 11: and so that already pushes trial until pretty late in
Speaker 11: the fall. If instead the Supreme Court says, well, we're
Speaker 11: not completely agreeing with the d C Circuits opinion, we're
Speaker 11: vacating and remanding it, which means they're basically sending it
Speaker 11: back down to the lower courts to make some additional
Speaker 11: findings and perform some additional legal test. That's going to
Speaker 11: for delay the trial, and I think that makes the
Speaker 11: prospect of a pre election trial pretty unlikely.
Speaker 3: How about that?
Speaker 2: Fascinating A great conversation, Lee, I'm so glad you could
Speaker 2: talk to us just a couple of hours after the
Speaker 2: rulings and ahead of what we're going to learn on Monday.
Speaker 2: Leah Littman, University of Michigan Law School, Thank you so
Speaker 2: much for the time here on Bloomberg Radio. Thanks for
Speaker 2: listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to
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