1 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. You're listening to the 2 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch Just Live weekdays at 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: noon Eastern on appocarplaying Thenrouno with the Bloomberg Business app. 4 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: Listen on demand wherever you get your podcasts, or watch 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: us live on YouTube. 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 2: Welcome to the fastest show in politics on Bloomberg TV 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: and Radio forty eight million. How about it we get 8 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 2: the number the ratings from the big debate last night. 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: We just heard from Joe Biden a short time ago. 10 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 2: He seems to be in full voice and he's definitely 11 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 2: staying in this race. I'm Joe Matthew alongside Kaylee Lines 12 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 2: as we pick through the pieces here this day after 13 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: the debate, and a fascinating Kayley tweet from Dave Wasserman. 14 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 3: At the Cook Political Report. 15 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: We hear from our friends at Cook pretty often, and 16 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 2: he tweeted this while he was watching the debate, making 17 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 2: it abundantly clear. He said that Joe Biden's insistence on 18 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 2: running for another term, sixty six percent of voters in 19 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 2: our swing state pole belief it is likely he will 20 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 2: not be able to finish a second term has gravely 21 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 2: jeopardized Democrats' prospects to defeat Donald Trump. 22 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 4: And yet Joe Biden, speaking moments ago at a Raleigh 23 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 4: rally in Raleigh, North Carolina, said that he intends to 24 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 4: win North Carolina in November and win the election by extension. 25 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 4: He also said he would not run again if he 26 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 4: didn't believe he could do it. The question is, does 27 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 4: is that belief shared by the American electorate and by 28 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,560 Speaker 4: even members of his own party after the performance in 29 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 4: the debate last night. 30 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, this could be a temporary freak out, one that 31 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 2: could be recovered from. We all remember the first debate 32 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: for Barack Obama, but this is the stakes are a 33 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 2: bit different, and the narrative surrounding Joe Biden's age is 34 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 2: one that Barack Obama was not dealing with when he 35 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 2: hit the stage with Mitt Romney. 36 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, a very very good point. And of course Democrats 37 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 4: today are having to speak about the president and what 38 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 4: went down last night, speaking about the alternative and former 39 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 4: President Donald Trump as well. And we're very lucky here 40 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 4: on Balance of Power to be joined now in studio 41 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 4: by Democratic Congresswoman Hailey Stevens of Michigan. Thank you for 42 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 4: being with us here on Bloomberg TV and Radio on 43 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 4: this day after Congresswoman, I think we can all call 44 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 4: it like we saw it last night. It was a 45 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 4: difficult night for the president. He just said he wouldn't 46 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 4: be running if he didn't believe that he could win. 47 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,760 Speaker 4: But why would a voter watching what happened last night 48 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 4: believe that he is capable of not just beating Donald Trump, 49 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 4: but seeing out a second term to completion. 50 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 5: Well, he's the only one who has beaten Donald Trump 51 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 5: and has debated him before and beaten him by seven 52 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 5: million votes last time. And look, I'm not going to 53 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 5: try and sugarcoat last night. It wasn't the best performance. 54 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 5: It was shaky. I would have loved to hear the 55 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 5: president talk more forcefully about his record. He's the one 56 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 5: defending a woman's right to choose, he's the one standing 57 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 5: up for abortion access. I have seen him talk about 58 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 5: these things very forcefully. He also got an infrastructure bill done. 59 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 5: But what crystallized last night is that people voters have 60 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 5: had concerns about his age and about his fitness, and 61 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 5: that now called that back into question. I personally, as 62 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 5: a lawmaker who have done I've done big policy alongside 63 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 5: this president I'm continuing to put my faith in him. 64 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 5: He is in that big role to make decisions, and 65 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 5: he has made a whole host of decisions very well, 66 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 5: very effectively, and I'm going to continue to entrust him 67 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 5: to do that and to speak clearly and honestly with 68 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 5: the American people as he has done many times before. 69 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 2: So this is something you see making its way through 70 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 2: the convention, and Joe Biden is going to be the 71 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 2: nominee obviously in your eyes, because a lot of people 72 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: last night were talking about your governor. Governor Whitmer, did 73 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 2: you talk to the governor after the debates to get 74 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 2: her impressions on how things went. 75 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 5: I talked to her a lot. I have not talked 76 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 5: to her since the debate. I think she's fantastic. She 77 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 5: has done a great job. 78 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 2: This whole idea of drafting her in a contested convention, though, 79 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 2: is that crazy talk? 80 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 5: Well, look, George Packer talks about creative thinking to save democracy, 81 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 5: and many Americans know that's what's on the line here. 82 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 5: I mean, we have a former, twice impeached, convicted felon 83 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 5: president who again couldn't announce January sixth, wouldn't say that 84 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 5: he would embrace the results of a free and fair election, 85 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 5: double down on abortion bands saying that the overturning of 86 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 5: Roe was a great thing. And I know that Gretchen 87 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 5: Wimmer is a fantastic surrogate for Joe Biden, and she 88 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 5: has been standing alongside this administration and alongside him. Coming 89 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 5: out of last night, I'm excited for her future. Again, 90 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 5: that's her decision to make down the road in terms 91 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 5: of what's going to happen and what's going to unfold 92 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 5: over these next series of months. There's an amazing ground 93 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 5: operat in Michigan and around this Biden campaign, dozens of 94 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 5: field offices, sleeves rolled up, campaign staff, working hard, recruiting 95 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 5: people for weekend events. Yes, last night was a tough night. 96 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,359 Speaker 5: I've worked on tough elections before, tough presidential elections. So 97 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 5: we're just gonna have to roll up our sleeves and 98 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 5: continue to see this through. 99 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 4: But as you described this as tough, and we have 100 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 4: known even prior to tonight that this was likely to 101 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 4: be a very close election decided by a very small 102 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 4: group of voters, including in your state of Michigan, one 103 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 4: of the critical swing states here. Would it be less 104 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 4: tough would it be easier if the candidate wasn't Joe Biden. 105 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 4: I guess my question, is Joe Biden the only person 106 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 4: in your eyes capable of beating Donald Trump? Or could 107 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 4: someone else do it just as easily. 108 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,279 Speaker 5: Well, look, and I understand why you're asking me these questions, 109 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 5: because that's your job. And certainly the hypotheticals, right, you know, 110 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 5: it would have been nice if Donald Trump decided not 111 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 5: to run again. It would have been nice if maybe 112 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 5: another candidate could have beaten him in that major primary 113 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 5: that he had. This man is back, He's told us 114 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 5: he wants to be a dictator. On day one. We've 115 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 5: got a guy who's who has won before against Donald Trump, overwhelmingly, 116 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 5: has an incredible track record, has a strong vice president who, 117 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 5: by the way, right now is really shining. Listen to 118 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 5: her on the national stage right now. Look at the 119 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 5: track record, look at the trustworthiness. And so, yeah, we 120 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,239 Speaker 5: could sit here and say, gosh, it would be great 121 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 5: to have some you know, perfect hypothetical candidate coming out 122 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 5: of the sun that's going to save us all. But 123 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 5: that's not the system. And maybe we are in a 124 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 5: moment of doing some deep thinking around reforms for our democracy. 125 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 5: You know, there's a lot of things that haven't been 126 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 5: adjusted or changed, a lot of frustrations. We've got ballooning 127 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 5: debt and deficit under a multitude of presidents. We've got 128 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 5: a problem at our border. We've got you know, tight 129 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 5: majorities that just pendulum swing between five seats here, five 130 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 5: seats there. And yes, we have sometimes a frustratingly undemocratic 131 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 5: part that gets us presidents of the United States. When 132 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 5: you don't win the popular vote, but you win by 133 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 5: ten thousand votes between a handful of states, that feels 134 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 5: frustrating to the American public. 135 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 3: Well, we really appreciate this conversation. 136 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 2: I know you're not a spokesman for Joe Biden, but 137 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 2: it's important to have this talk right now because people 138 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 2: are trying to figure things out today. And one of 139 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: the big issues that you know a lot about, because 140 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 2: it might mean more to Michigan than some other states, 141 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 2: is the issue of tariffs. Joe Biden has his approach 142 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 2: on this, specifically when it comes. 143 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 3: To ev s. Speaking of Michigan. 144 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 2: Donald Trump has a very different approach, and he got 145 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: into this was one of the few moments of policy 146 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 2: I might be able to points to you from last night. 147 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 3: Listen to Donald Trump from the debate. 148 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 6: It's just going to cause countries that have been ripping 149 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 6: us off for years, like China and many others. In 150 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 6: all fairness to China, it's going to just force them 151 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 6: to pay us a lot of money, reduce our deficit tremendously, 152 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 6: and give us a lot of power for other things. 153 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 2: Or will it do something else like increase inflation at 154 00:07:57,760 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 2: a time when we might be on the cusp of 155 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 2: meeting it. 156 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 5: Well, look, we know that President trump China policy was tariffs, 157 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 5: and that did contribute to inflation. President Biden's approach has 158 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 5: been aggressive public private partnerships. Industrial policy to the likes 159 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 5: of this nation has never seen. You can look to 160 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,239 Speaker 5: the Chips and Science Act, the fifty two billion dollars 161 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 5: that's been put into the marketplace by the federal government 162 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 5: to say that we're going to start making chips here 163 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 5: in the United States of America. That was met within 164 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 5: the first quarter of its signing Joe with two hundred 165 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 5: billion dollars of private sector contributions. These are things that 166 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 5: are paying for themselves. We're also seeing this with the 167 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 5: energy transition, where automotive industry is going, where ethanol is 168 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 5: going tax credits that are also working for us. I 169 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 5: think President Biden did the right thing saying, hey, I'm 170 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 5: putting teariffs down because I'm not letting cheap evs flood 171 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 5: our market. That's what's really frustrating with the Chinese Communist 172 00:08:57,160 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 5: Party and how they do business. 173 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 4: Finally, as you seek to legislative accomplishments like the Chips Act, 174 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 4: obviously we are deep in this election cycle. What can 175 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 4: we expect from you and your colleagues between now and 176 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 4: the election? Is anything robust actually going to be able 177 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 4: to get across the finish line? 178 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 5: Well, you know, it's summertime and that senioritis just kicking 179 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 5: in a little bit, you know, that itchiness to be home, 180 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 5: be in your district. Shaking hands. Okay, you know, the 181 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 5: elections are in some ways closer than we think, but 182 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 5: we do have a whole host of work to get done. 183 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 5: In One of the bright lights is this AI task 184 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,439 Speaker 5: Force that I'm sitting on and we're meeting very regularly. 185 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 5: We've gotten direction from both Republican leadership and Democratic leadership 186 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 5: that we need to, you know, come forward with some 187 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 5: ideas that there's a real want to pass some legislation 188 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 5: around AI, if it's looking at regulations or even more so, 189 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 5: protecting people's privacy, but also ensuring that we can bolster 190 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 5: innovation and harness the good, dictate the rules of the 191 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 5: road around artificial intelligence for our public health sector, for sciences, 192 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 5: and for small businesses across America. So I'm remaining pretty 193 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 5: dedicated to that activity. 194 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 2: This is an important conversation for us at Bloomberg, as 195 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 2: you know, so come back not the day after a debate, 196 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 2: and let's. 197 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 3: Have a real talk about it. 198 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 5: Talk about it. 199 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, And what you're going to get done in 200 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 2: the Lane duck session. I think that's going to be 201 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 2: the biggest story of this Congress. Great to see you, 202 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: Congressoman Haley Stevens with us at that's able, the Democrat 203 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 2: from Michigan. There you have it, Kayley, from someone who's 204 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: there and a Democrat who needs to make the case. 205 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast Ken 206 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on Applecarplay and enroyd 207 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: Otto with the Bloomberg Business Ad. You can also listen 208 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, 209 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: Just Say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 210 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 2: The President is about to speak. Welcome to the fastest 211 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 2: show in politics. As Joe Biden returns to the campaign 212 00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: trail this day after a challenged performance in his first 213 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 2: debate with Donald Trump and Atlanta. I'm Joe Matthew alongside 214 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 2: Kaylee Lines in Washington and Kaylee the President is hearing 215 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 2: intense criticism and even in some cases calls to drop 216 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 2: out of the race. Calls that are coming from inside 217 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 2: the House. 218 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is members of both the Democrat and Republican 219 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 4: Party who, in the aftermath of the debate are questioning 220 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,160 Speaker 4: Joe Biden's ability to carry on as the Democratic nominee. 221 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 4: Keeping in mind that this debate happened so early in June, 222 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 4: before Donald Trump or Joe Biden are the official party nominees, 223 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 4: the conventions have not yet taken place, and after the 224 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 4: events of last night and the times halting and difficult 225 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 4: performance that Joe Biden put up, there is an open 226 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 4: question as to what exactly is going to go down 227 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 4: in Chicago and August and. 228 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 2: Even today in Raleigh, North Carolina. If you're with us 229 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 2: on Bloomberg TV or on YouTube, you see live shots 230 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:50,839 Speaker 2: from the podium as we prepare to hear from Joe 231 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 2: Biden for the first time since Atlanta last night. A 232 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 2: frog in his throat at best, I guess a cold 233 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 2: at worst. I'm not sure what we heard exactly there, Kaylee, 234 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 2: but we brought special coverage of the CNN presidential debate 235 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:04,319 Speaker 2: last evening. 236 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 3: Here on Bloomberry. 237 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:08,440 Speaker 2: People were struck by his inability in some cases to 238 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 2: articulate numbers and ideas and halting performance. He even froze 239 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 2: up at one moment pretty early in the debate. If 240 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 2: you want to hear a taste of that right now, 241 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 2: here's Joe Biden from Atlanta last night. 242 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 7: Stars in our healthcare system making sure that we're able 243 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:32,079 Speaker 7: to make every single solitary person eligible for what I've 244 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 7: been able to do with the with the COVID, I 245 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 7: should be with dealing with everything we have to do 246 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 7: with Look, if we finally beat medicare. 247 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 2: Donald Trump took the ball and ran with that, Kayley. 248 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 2: That was the moment last night where people in some 249 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 2: cases started to tune out and other cases expressed deep 250 00:12:58,559 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 2: concern about what was going on. 251 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 4: Democrats, namely, Yeah, and it happened very early on. We 252 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 4: were not fifteen minutes into the debate, when certainly social 253 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 4: media started to become in it tizzy, and of course 254 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 4: Biden's inability at times to articulate his message, to properly 255 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 4: state his own policy positions and facts of his administration 256 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 4: kind of overshadowed the facts that Donald Trump, for his part, 257 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 4: told litany of falsehoods, misstating facts of his own lying, 258 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 4: not being checked by the moderators on CNN, but not 259 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 4: being effectively checked by Joe Biden either. 260 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 2: They did decide to do that after the fact. By 261 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 2: the way, the moderators allowed Donald Trump to make at 262 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 2: least thirty false claims and Biden to make nine, according 263 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 2: to the post debate analysis on CNN. Look, when he 264 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 2: comes out, We're going to bring you live to North Carolina. 265 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 2: Everyone is wondering how Joe Biden is sounding and is 266 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 2: feeling today, what his posture will be at this event 267 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 2: where they're really trying to wind up the crowd. Kley, 268 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 2: but we have a chance to talk to Steve Dupree, 269 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 2: the owner of Dupre Companies, the former chair of the 270 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 2: New Hampshire Republican Party, who we've stayed in touch with 271 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 2: since the New Hampshire primary, was formerly backing Nicky Haley 272 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 2: on the campaign trail, and as we wake up this 273 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 2: morning to a world that feels a bit different and 274 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 2: more assured according to some for Donald Trump, we wanted 275 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 2: to talk to Steve about the way this is going. 276 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 2: Mister Dupree, welcome back. It's great to see you on 277 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 2: Bloomberg TV and radio. I wonder what was going through 278 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 2: your mind as you were watching this last night, or 279 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 2: how you felt this morning. If you feel like Donald 280 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 2: Trump is closer to the White House. 281 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 8: Well, watching it last night was discouraging on both fronts. 282 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 8: On the one hand, we have a former president who's 283 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 8: convicted felon, faces more felony charges, who has forty out 284 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 8: of forty five or some number of senior cabinet level 285 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 8: of people in his past administration won't endorse him telling 286 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 8: falsehood's left and right. And on the other hand, we 287 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 8: have a president who's conducted himself honorably, restored relations with allies, 288 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 8: handle the Ukraine and the China situations well, but clearly 289 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 8: did not show the kind of mental acuity that's expected 290 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 8: of a president. I mean, I think it was the 291 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 8: worst debate performance, certainly in the history of televised debates, 292 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 8: and President Biden had one task, which was to show 293 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 8: that he's up for the job, and he failed last night. 294 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 8: You know, I think it's a direct byproduct which happens 295 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 8: in every administration where they product the incumbent. Had President 296 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 8: Biden been subjected to somewhat of a primary challenge been 297 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 8: in New Hampshire or some other places, either he would 298 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 8: have been sharper or the Democratic Party would have realized 299 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 8: that they had a challenge. 300 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 4: Well, and now there is much speculation this morning Steve 301 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 4: as to whether or not the Democratic Party, or at 302 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 4: least key figureheads within it, including the First Lady Joe Biden, 303 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 4: are going to begin to press Joe Biden to consider 304 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 4: leaving this race and allowing someone else to become the 305 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 4: official nominee for Donald Trump. Though does he need Joe 306 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 4: Biden to be the nominee to win this thing? 307 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 8: I think certainly, you know, notwithstanding the fact that he 308 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 8: has all of that baggage, and he had all those 309 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 8: thirty plus false statements, he came across as vigorous, as animated, 310 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 8: as in good mental and physical shape, and the contrast 311 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 8: was disheartening certainly the Democrats, but disheartening for every American, 312 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 8: regardless of who you support. So I think it obviously 313 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 8: President Biden would be a strong candidate, notwithstanding last night, 314 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 8: just from what we've seen in the polls. But if 315 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 8: it opens up and there were a new nominee, who 316 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 8: knows who that person could be and whether they could 317 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 8: mount the kind of campaign you'd needed. But certainly last 318 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 8: night's debate gave President Trump a clear win, and it'll 319 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 8: be very interesting to see the polls over the next 320 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 8: few days, which were showing a tightening to the race, 321 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 8: whether that remains the same. 322 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 2: You've been at this for a minute, Steve. You know 323 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 2: what it's like to be a delegate at a convention. 324 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 2: You don't buy this talk of a contested convention, right, 325 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: This is fantasy journalists, isn't it? 326 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 8: Generally it is. But certainly if there ever were a 327 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 8: case where somebody stepped down and you had an open convention, 328 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 8: this might be it. It really depends on whether the 329 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 8: Democratic Party stays behind President Biden, which it seems they're 330 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 8: doing right now, or whether they start to move away 331 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 8: from him. And Frank, I think you're going to see 332 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 8: a lot of the Democratic operatives watching the poll numbers 333 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 8: over the next few days and seeing if the results 334 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 8: of the primary the debate rather start to make these 335 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 8: polls go away. 336 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 4: Well here at Bloomberg, obviously we do like to look 337 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 4: at the data and look at the polling data, but 338 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,200 Speaker 4: we also like to look at the financial data on fundraising. 339 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 4: After for two months in a row, in April and May, 340 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 4: the Biden and the DNC effort was outraised by Donald 341 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 4: Trump and the RNC. Interestingly, though, based on the data 342 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 4: we're getting from the campaigns today, the Biden campaign says 343 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 4: yesterday and part of today it raised fourteen million. Donald 344 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 4: Trump's campaign says it raised eight million after the debate. 345 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 4: Is that telling to you in some way. 346 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: Steve. 347 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 8: No, I don't think so, because President Trump had two 348 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 8: incredible months and virtually erased a large part of the 349 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 8: gap between between the two. So I don't think this 350 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 8: overnight fundraising. I think people loyal to the president decided 351 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 8: they better pony up and show their support. So I 352 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 8: don't really think. I don't read a lot to that 353 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 8: into that. I really do think though, polling over the 354 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 8: next few days will show whether President Biden maintains the 355 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 8: level of support and what looked to be a closing race, 356 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 8: or whether it starts to fall away and there's nothing 357 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 8: that will increase the chatter more to try to get 358 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 8: him to step down. Then the polls diverging substantially over 359 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 8: the next week. 360 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 2: We talked to Governor Chris Sninu just a couple of 361 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 2: days ago. Steve talked about his evolution and why he 362 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 2: plans to vote for Donald Trump. How many former Nicky 363 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 2: Haley supporters planned to do the same following Christino in 364 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 2: that direction in the state of New Hampshire. 365 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 8: I think a fair number of them will. I mean 366 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 8: Christininu has said, Look, I disagree with President Trump and 367 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,160 Speaker 8: the way he conducts himself. I don't like how erradic 368 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 8: he is and how he's treated our allies. But a 369 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 8: Republican administration has more to it than just a president, 370 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,119 Speaker 8: and he thinks that more can be accomplished there. So 371 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 8: I do think some number of those will come over. 372 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 8: But if this race stays close, and if the result 373 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 8: of this debate doesn't worsen the poll numbers for President Biden, 374 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 8: some percentage of those people in the five contested states 375 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 8: will make the difference. 376 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 4: All right. Steve Dufree, owner of d pre company's former 377 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 4: chair of the New Hampshire Republican Party, Thank you so much. 378 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch 379 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: Just Live weekdays at noon Eastern on Appo, car Play 380 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: and then roud Otto with the Bloomberg Business app. Listen 381 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: on demand where you get your podcasts, or watch us 382 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: live on YouTube. 383 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,919 Speaker 2: As we get back to the debate last night that 384 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 2: which Democrats are freaking out this morning and Republicans are 385 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 2: celebrating right or wrong. 386 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 3: Oh you didn't see the debate. Here's a taste of 387 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,160 Speaker 3: Joe Biden and Donald Trump from last night. 388 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 7: Making sure that we continue to strengthen our healthcare system, 389 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 7: making sure that we're able to make every single solitary 390 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 7: person eligible for what I've been able to do with 391 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 7: the with the COVID, I should be with dealing with 392 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 7: everything we have to do with Look if we finally 393 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 7: beat medicare. 394 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 2: Okay, that was about fifteen minutes into the debate. It 395 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 2: didn't get a lot better from there. As we assemble 396 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,240 Speaker 2: our panel for their take, Max Burns is back with us. 397 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 2: The Democratics just at third degree strategies. Spend a while 398 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 2: Lisa Kamusa Miller Republican strategist, former RNC Comms director, host 399 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 2: of the Friday Reporter podcast, Max I keep hearing that 400 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 2: there's going to be a different person nominated by the 401 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 2: Democrats to run for president in twenty twenty four, Gavin Newsom, 402 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 2: Governor Whitmer. Are we being serious here or is this 403 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 2: going to be the nominee for Democrats? 404 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 9: Well, I think Democrats do have a tendency to panic 405 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 9: after bad performances like this. We saw it in twenty 406 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 9: twelve when Barack Obama had a bust of a first 407 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 9: debate against Mitt Romney, and there was a brief talk 408 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 9: about potentially having him drop out and endorse Mark Zuckerberg. 409 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 9: But I do think that over the next couple of 410 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 9: weeks this will fade. But that doesn't mean that concerns 411 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 9: are overblown. I mean, this was a rough performance, and 412 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,879 Speaker 9: much like Obama's, his team is going to have to 413 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 9: come together with President Biden and actually discuss what went 414 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 9: wrong and see what can be course corrected here. 415 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 2: Lisa Cabusa Miller literally drove off the road. She's pulled 416 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 2: her car over to talk to us. Lisa, It's good 417 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: to have you back. Do we call this a win? 418 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 2: For Donald Trump or simply a loss for Joe Biden. 419 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 10: This last night was such a gigantic disappointment for the 420 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 10: American people too. I'm not really sure where to start, 421 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 10: but what I will say is this is a gigantic 422 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 10: loss for Joe Biden. I was so distracted by Joe 423 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 10: Biden's behavior that I didn't even hear words that came 424 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 10: out of Donald Trump's mouth. And if that's the way 425 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 10: I consumed that debate last night, I suspect that that's 426 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 10: very similar to the way that many many others did 427 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 10: as well. And as much as I respect Max's point 428 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 10: of view about course correction, to me, that was just 429 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 10: so far gone and his behavior it just Joe Biden 430 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,359 Speaker 10: lost the election last night in my opinion. 431 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 2: Wow, you can weigh in on that point, Max, But 432 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 2: I was going to ask you if you think last 433 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 2: night's performance makes it more likely that Joe Biden debates 434 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 2: again that makes good on this deal to debate in 435 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 2: September to course correct to make up for last night, 436 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 2: or much less likely because the staff. 437 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 3: Will not let him on another stage with Donald Trump again. 438 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 9: Well, Joe Biden has already said that he's eager to 439 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 9: debate again in September. That's going to be an interesting situation. 440 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 9: I personally think it was very lucky for Biden that 441 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 9: this was taking place in June instead of September or October, because, 442 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 9: as we tend to see from debates going back to 443 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 9: nineteen fifty two, they don't necessarily move polls for very long. 444 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,959 Speaker 9: Usually the effect wears off in about three weeks. And 445 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 9: that's going to be a blessing for Joe Biden right now. 446 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 9: Because as much as I believe what Joe Biden said 447 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 9: up there was factual and was correct, I agree, I 448 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 9: don't think the American people heard as much of what 449 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 9: Joe Biden was saying because it was such a shockingly 450 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 9: different Biden than they're used to seeing from twenty twenties debates. 451 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know, Max, I mean, I don't know 452 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 2: what it shocked this up to. He spent a week 453 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 2: at Camp David, they had nothing but time put into 454 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,239 Speaker 2: the preparation here. I don't know if that was a 455 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,959 Speaker 2: frog in his throat, or if the White House is correct, 456 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 2: he came back with some kind of a cold. Maybe 457 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 2: they should have said that before he started talking in 458 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 2: a way that was jarring when people heard the first 459 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 2: words that came out of his mouth last night. But 460 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 2: I think the question is about consistency, right, I mean, 461 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 2: look at all the speeches at the White House. 462 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 3: About half the time he sounds kind of like that. 463 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 2: It's just different when you're in a competitive debate and 464 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 2: you're over prepared. 465 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 3: Some people might even suggest, but what. 466 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 2: About next year, what about four years from now, Max, 467 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 2: what will he sound like then? 468 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 11: Well? 469 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 9: I think those raised serious questions, and in many ways, 470 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 9: yesterday was a tale of two Joe Biden's because after 471 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 9: the debate, at a post debate rally in Atlanta, Joe 472 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 9: Biden was on stage, cracking jokes. He sounded great, he 473 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 9: was sharp, he was on point. And the one thing 474 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 9: I was hearing from a lot of Democratic strategists and 475 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 9: even members of Congress is where is that Joe Biden? 476 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 9: For the ninety minutes that he was on the air 477 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 9: in front of tens of millions of Americans. There is now, 478 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 9: I think a resurgence of questions internally about whether Joe 479 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 9: Biden's team is prepping him correctly, whether this situation could 480 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 9: have been mitigated, or whether this is just the reality 481 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 9: of running a candidate who is eighty one years old. 482 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,919 Speaker 3: Do you have any answers to those questions, Lisa, what 483 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 3: do you think? 484 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 10: Well, I mean, what is really sad is this is 485 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 10: not a behavioral and it's not a performance issue. This 486 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 10: is the fact that he is absolutely at an age 487 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 10: where this is beyond his capability. And that is really 488 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 10: my point of view. And you know that I'm not 489 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 10: terribly fond of the Republican nominee either, but this in 490 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 10: favor this Joe is incredibly concerning. We watched a very 491 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 10: strong Joe Biden at the State of Union and it's 492 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 10: only been three or four months later, and he has 493 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 10: clearly declined. And now we're considering the fact that he 494 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 10: will be not declining more over the course of the 495 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 10: next four years. That to me, it's beyond the pale. 496 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,360 Speaker 10: There is no coming back from this, and I think 497 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 10: the Democrats have a very very good reason to be concerned. 498 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 10: They are seeding the win and seeding the White House 499 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 10: to Donald Trump if they continue to put Joe Biden 500 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 10: on the ballot in the fall. 501 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: There's no coming back from this. Lisa, you just said 502 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 2: Joe Biden lost the election last night. We're going to 503 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 2: have some time for Donald Trump here. But Max, is 504 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 2: there a world in which some sort of deal is 505 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 2: struck or does that mean a Kamala Harris run for 506 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 2: the next turn? 507 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 3: What the heck would happen? 508 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 9: Well, the big problem here is that the question of 509 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 9: who is not a clear one, and the people who 510 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 9: are calling for an open convention or Joe Biden stepping 511 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 9: aside severely underestimate the chaos that would cause in the party. 512 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 9: It wouldn't just be expensive and incredibly polarizing, but it 513 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 9: would effectively pit all of the democratic parties demographic groups 514 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 9: against each other in a way that would be incredible 515 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 9: disabling for the party that's currently trying to promote a 516 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 9: message of unity and a message that democracy is on 517 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,959 Speaker 9: the ballot here. It would create a mess that I 518 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 9: think a lot of people are not aware of because 519 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 9: we haven't seen a convention like that in our lifetimes. 520 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 3: That's for sure. 521 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 2: Even though it's the fantasy of journalists every four years, 522 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 2: no one really thought it was going to happen. Lisa, 523 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 2: is that how this ends for Democrats in Chicago? 524 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 10: You know, it's hard to tell. 525 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 7: Joe. 526 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 10: There's a lot. I think Max is right. I think 527 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 10: this is a lot more difficult than people understand, and 528 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 10: it would create a tremendous amount of turmoil. But I 529 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,639 Speaker 10: also think too that it's really kind of the Democrat's 530 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 10: fault in the first place that no one stood up 531 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 10: and said that maybe it was time to consider someone 532 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 10: other than Joe Biden. And I think a lot of 533 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,760 Speaker 10: the blame sort of comes to be laid at the 534 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 10: feet of the people at the White House who haven't 535 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 10: let us see the president more readily, haven't let us 536 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 10: see in press conferences and other events. To me, this 537 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 10: is something that probably could have been avoided. And so 538 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 10: now we talk about the possibility of whether or not 539 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 10: it's draft some of the strongest democratic governors across the country, 540 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 10: whether it's other elected officials that are proven and younger 541 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 10: and smarter and potentially could take on Donald Trump with 542 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 10: one hundred and thirty some days to go. Joe, it 543 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 10: just to me seems like it is incredibly frustrating and 544 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 10: upsetting that we're here, and I think a lot of 545 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 10: the blame goes to the party itself. 546 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,719 Speaker 2: Well, I'll tell you what, CNN took no time and 547 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 2: made no effort to fact check this debate in real time, 548 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 2: and but that I really mean the former president. 549 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 3: Of course, they showed up later and did all of that. 550 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 3: If you decided to watch TV all night. 551 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 2: They found that the moderators Jake Tapper and Dana Bash 552 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 2: allowed Donald Trump to make at least thirty thirty false 553 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 2: claims and Biden to make nine, according to the post 554 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 2: debate CNN analysis, Max, let's talk about Donald Trump for 555 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 2: a moment. If Joe Biden allows him to become the 556 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 2: next president. Here, what did we learn about Donald Trump 557 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 2: last night? He was saying things, he was taking credit 558 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 2: for things that Joe Biden done there, saying things that 559 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 2: were patently false. 560 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 3: Yep. 561 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 2: What can Democrats do to blunt that approach? Because it 562 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 2: didn't work last night? 563 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 9: Well, I think we've learned that as the American electorate 564 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,959 Speaker 9: has changed a lot since twenty twenty, donald Trump really hasn't. 565 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 9: This was essentially Trump playing his greatest hits of grievance, 566 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 9: making up false claims about how Mexicans have stolen the moon. 567 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 9: And what was so shocking to me was looking at 568 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 9: people like Jake Tapper who offered no pushback. At one point, 569 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 9: especially jarring was Joe Biden asking Donald Trump to condemn 570 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 9: the proud boys for their violence. On January sixth, Trump 571 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 9: ignored him, of course, But then Jake Tapper didn't feel 572 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 9: that that very consequential question even merited a cursory follow up. 573 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 9: So whatever CNN was trying to do at this debate, 574 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 9: it was certainly not any kind of journalistically rigorous attempt 575 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 9: to learn what these candidates actually believe. 576 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 2: We can criticize the moderators all night here, but how 577 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 2: about the candidate, the presumptive nominee for your party, Lisa, 578 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 2: how dangerous do you see Donald Trump as being for 579 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 2: the future of. 580 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 3: The GOP. 581 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:24,719 Speaker 11: Ugh? 582 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,959 Speaker 10: I mean, you know how I feel about this. It's 583 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 10: tremendously dangerous. And it is the kind of thing that 584 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 10: even my smartest Republican friends who don't necessarily agree with 585 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 10: Donald Trump are saying they fundamentally cannot pull the lever 586 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 10: or make the choice or Joe Biden that they are 587 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 10: going to hold their nose. This is the phrasing that 588 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 10: I'm hearing from a colleagues of mine and vote for 589 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 10: Donald Trump because they fundamentally believe in the policies that 590 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 10: he and the people he'll put in place will enact. 591 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 10: And so that to me is concerning because They are 592 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 10: willing to step aside from truth and from integrity and 593 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 10: support a candidate that will will advance policies that they 594 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 10: agree with in in deference to another candidate who they 595 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 10: know is not qualified and is not ready to. 596 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 9: Serve for another four years. 597 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 10: So to me, that is it's troublesome because Donald Trump 598 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 10: absolutely and he I think Max is absolutely on point. 599 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 10: What he said is totally true. Donald Trump is exactly 600 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 10: the same as he has always been. The electorate has changed, 601 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 10: but he is not he had. He consistently says things 602 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 10: that are at false and people don't care. They're willing 603 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,479 Speaker 10: to support him in spite of it. 604 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 3: What a night. 605 00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 2: This is exactly the conversation I needed today now that 606 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 2: we have any idea what's going to happen, But great 607 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 2: to hear from both of you and get inside your 608 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 2: heads for a moment. Lisa Kimussa Miller of course, Republican strategist, 609 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 2: former RNC Comms director, host of The Friday Reporter podcast, 610 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 2: and that's Max Burns. Don't be a stranger, Max, Democratic strategist, 611 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 2: Third degree Strategies. 612 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Kens 613 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: just Live weekdays, at noon Eastern apocarplay and then Rodoo 614 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: with the Bloomberg business ad. You can also listen live 615 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just 616 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 1: say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty. 617 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 2: Friday edition of Balance of Power. You made it to 618 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 2: the threshold of the weekend. And if you were up 619 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 2: half the night like half the country watching the debate 620 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 2: last night, rest is near. The Supreme Court makes news 621 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 2: again today. We're going to have one more day after this. 622 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:31,479 Speaker 2: This is kind of a big deal here, all right. 623 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 2: Monday is the last opinion day, and we can tell 624 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 2: you that officially that came from the Chief Justice earlier today. 625 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 2: That means the ruling on presidential immunity, which will give 626 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 2: us a sense of whether there will be a January 627 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 2: sixth trial for Donald Trump. That'll emerge on Monday morning. 628 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 3: Just after ten am. What we did learn today. 629 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 2: Is some of the charges, the obstruction, specifically the obstruction 630 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 2: charges facing Donald Trump with regard to what happened on 631 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,680 Speaker 2: January along with several of the January sixth rioters, that 632 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 2: the convicted rioters, the defendants, those obstruction charges will in 633 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 2: many cases not be allowed. 634 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 3: This will make it much more difficult for. 635 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 2: Jack Smith to charge Trump for prosecutors to charge rioters 636 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 2: with this idea of obstructing and official proceeding. We've talked 637 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 2: about this before. It goes back to two thousand and two, 638 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 2: a law written in the age of Enron, when obstructing 639 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 2: was shredding documents, hiding papers. In this case, obstructing an 640 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 2: official preceding the certification of an election, Not so much. 641 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 3: According to the Supreme Court six ' three ruling. 642 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 2: And it's where we start with Leah Littman, the professor 643 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 2: of law at the University of Michigan Law School and 644 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 2: co host of the Strict Scrutiny podcast. Leah, great to 645 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 2: see you, thank you for being with us, and I 646 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 2: wonder what you make of this ruling, particularly how the 647 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 2: various justices sided on this. It did not fall along 648 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: so called party lines or ideological lines. What do you 649 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:08,520 Speaker 2: make of the Court's ruling. 650 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 11: I think it was expected from the oral argument, and 651 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,480 Speaker 11: while the Court's decision didn't fall exactly along ideological lines, 652 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 11: it was still six ' three mostly along ideological lines. 653 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 11: So you had the Chief Justice in the majority writing 654 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 11: for himself and four other Republican appointees together with Justice Jackson. 655 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,439 Speaker 11: And Justice Jackson actually wrote separately to further explain her vote, 656 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 11: and then the dissent was written by Justice Barrett and 657 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 11: she was joined by the two other Democratic appointees on 658 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 11: the Court Justices. So to Mayor and Kagan, and I 659 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 11: think what's interesting about the opinion is really two things. 660 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,880 Speaker 11: One relates to Donald Trump's case and the other just 661 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 11: relates to what it says about the Supreme Court. And 662 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 11: if you read the opinion in Fisher, I think part 663 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 11: of what is notable about it is the Court is 664 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 11: not just focusing on the text of the statute. Because 665 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 11: the text of the statute under which many January sixth 666 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 11: defendants were convicted as otherwise obstructing and official proceeding, it 667 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 11: doesn't say anything about documents, records, or evidence. And instead, 668 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 11: what the Chief Justices majority said is, well, look the 669 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,760 Speaker 11: other sections in the statute. Those talk about documents and evidence. 670 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 11: And we know that Congress was thinking about Enron when 671 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 11: it enacted this law. So therefore we're going to read 672 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 11: in this kind of additional requirement, the prosecutors have to 673 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 11: show that whatever the defendant did to obstruct the proceeding 674 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 11: involves some obstruction of records, documents, and evidence, so it's 675 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 11: kind of interesting and that it's not very textualist, even 676 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 11: though we think about the Republican appointees as textualists. 677 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 2: And then the second Justice Barrett talks about textual backflips 678 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 2: that were done in this opinion. 679 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 3: Do you disagree? 680 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 11: No, I think she's right, and that's why I think 681 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 11: it's interesting that Justice Jackson wrote separately, because her separate 682 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 11: writing basically says, look, you can't resolve this case in 683 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 11: the way the majority did just based on the text. 684 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 11: But I am voting way because I consider Congress's purpose 685 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 11: in enacting the statute, and Congress's purpose was about the 686 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,799 Speaker 11: destruction of evidence and records. So I think both Justice 687 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 11: Jackson and Justice Barrett are correct that the majority had 688 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 11: to kind of do textual backflips and couldn't just rely 689 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 11: on the text of the law in order to get them, 690 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,919 Speaker 11: where as Justice Barrett said, they wanted to go because 691 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 11: they just couldn't believe Congress meant what it said. 692 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:25,239 Speaker 3: Fascinating. 693 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 2: As we spend time with the Olipman, Professor of Law 694 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 2: at the University of Michigan Law School, we've got a 695 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 2: big one coming. The granddaddy of at least this session 696 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,400 Speaker 2: comes on Monday, Leah presidential immunity. This could go a 697 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 2: couple of different ways. Can I ask you before you 698 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 2: weigh in on what might happen? Why the heck it 699 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 2: has taken so long? Why does this have to go 700 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 2: to the last day? 701 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 11: I mean, I think it's very puzzling, and it's in 702 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 11: a lot of ways concerning because the Supreme Court's delay 703 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:57,280 Speaker 11: in the Trump Community case is further jeopardizing the prospect 704 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 11: of a pre election trial and pre election verdict on 705 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 11: the very serious election interference charges. You know, when you 706 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 11: have a former president running for re election and that 707 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 11: former president is alleged to have interfered with the peaceful 708 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 11: transition of power, I think it's a pretty important to 709 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 11: send that case to a jury before the election. And 710 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 11: yet the Supreme Court's dilatory actions in this case have 711 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 11: really minimized the prospect of a pre election verdict, you know. 712 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 11: Special Council Jack Smith originally asked the Court to take 713 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,320 Speaker 11: the case in December. The Court declined to do so 714 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 11: and waited until February. Then it scheduled the oral argument 715 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 11: for two months away. Now it's taken them, you know, 716 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 11: two months and more to reach a decision, even though 717 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,320 Speaker 11: it has acted much more quickly in many other cases, 718 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,439 Speaker 11: including the disqualification case out of Colorado about whether Donald 719 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 11: Trump could even appear on the ballot. So I think 720 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 11: it's very concerning. Again, another reason why it's concerning is 721 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 11: because of the arguments Donald Trump was making. You know, 722 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,359 Speaker 11: those arguments were so broad and outlandish that presidents could 723 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 11: never be said to criminal laws. You would think it 724 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 11: wouldn't take that much time to kind of say, whatever 725 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 11: the scope of presidential immunity, this isn't it. 726 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 3: Well, Okay, So if the delay is maybe political, will 727 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 3: the ruling be. 728 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 11: I mean, we have to wait to see. I think 729 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 11: in many respects, the Supreme Court has already done what 730 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 11: Donald Trump most wanted, and that was to delay the 731 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 11: trial in his case and to prolong the proceedings. Because 732 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 11: when Donald Trump originally asked the Court to hear this case, 733 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 11: he asked them to schedule it for next term. Now 734 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 11: the Supreme Court didn't do that, but instead by dragging 735 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 11: it out until the end of this term and extending 736 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 11: this term into July, which itself is quite rare, they've 737 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 11: given him a lot of the delay that they've asked for. 738 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 11: So even if they don't completely embrace his arguments, he 739 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 11: already has a significant win. 740 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 2: That's really something. This is going to happen at ten 741 00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:01,439 Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning on my to what extent could 742 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 2: it impact the outcome of the January sixth trial? If 743 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 2: only in timing here will there be time if this 744 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 2: unlocks a trial for Jack Smith to get this started 745 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 2: or complete it even before the election. 746 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 11: I think that will partially depend on the ruling that 747 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 11: they issue. If their ruling is just to straight up 748 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 11: we affirm the d C Circuits opinion, there's some possibility 749 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 11: of a pre election trial, although you know, Judge Chuckkin, 750 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,239 Speaker 11: the trial judge in the case, had said there would 751 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 11: have to be eighty some days of pre trial proceedings, 752 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 11: and so that already pushes trial until pretty late in 753 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 11: the fall. If instead the Supreme Court says, well, we're 754 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 11: not completely agreeing with the d C Circuits opinion, we're 755 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 11: vacating and remanding it, which means they're basically sending it 756 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,400 Speaker 11: back down to the lower courts to make some additional 757 00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 11: findings and perform some additional legal test. That's going to 758 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:01,880 Speaker 11: for delay the trial, and I think that makes the 759 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 11: prospect of a pre election trial pretty unlikely. 760 00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 3: How about that? 761 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 2: Fascinating A great conversation, Lee, I'm so glad you could 762 00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:12,239 Speaker 2: talk to us just a couple of hours after the 763 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 2: rulings and ahead of what we're going to learn on Monday. 764 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,880 Speaker 2: Leah Littman, University of Michigan Law School, Thank you so 765 00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:22,480 Speaker 2: much for the time here on Bloomberg Radio. Thanks for 766 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 2: listening to the Balance of Power podcast. Make sure to 767 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 2: subscribe if you haven't already, at Apple, Spotify, or wherever 768 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 2: you get your podcasts, and you can find us live 769 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,320 Speaker 2: every weekday from Washington, DC at noontime Eastern at Bloomberg 770 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:35,839 Speaker 2: dot com.