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Speaker 1: On February twenty fifth, nineteen ninety three, police were called

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Speaker 1: to a house in a remote area in Saskatchewan, Canada.

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Speaker 1: They arrived to a horrific and bloody scene. Seventy year

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Speaker 1: old Joseph Dolph was lying face down on his bedroom

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Speaker 1: floor dead. He had been beaten and stabbed multiple times.

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Speaker 1: The house was in shambles and there had obviously been

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Speaker 1: a violent struggle that morning. O'delia and Nerissa Cusance and

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Speaker 1: their cousin Jason Kashane were picked up by police. The

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Speaker 1: sisters were held at the station for five days and

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Speaker 1: questioned repeatedly without counsel.

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Speaker 2: These were two young Indigenous women trying to cope with

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Speaker 2: police officers. White police officers, all male.

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Speaker 1: The interrogations were not recorded, and after days of questioning,

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Speaker 1: both women signed statements admitting to taking part in the killing, and.

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Speaker 2: On the basis of those unrecorded statements that the police

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Speaker 2: alleged they gave. After a trial before a jud John,

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Speaker 2: of course, not surprisingly in all white jury, they were

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Speaker 2: convicted the following year.

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Speaker 1: From LoVa for good this is wrongful conviction with Maggie

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Speaker 1: Freeling today Odelia and Narissa Cusance o'dellia, Narissa Cusants are

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Speaker 1: sisters born two years apart and members of the Salto

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Speaker 1: First Nation. They grew up on the Keiscous Reserve in Saskatchewan, Canada,

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Speaker 1: along with an older brother and three other sisters.

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Speaker 3: And growing up in Kiscoose. We all were called the

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Speaker 3: village kids. We lived in a village.

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Speaker 1: This is Odelia, the older of the two, born in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two.

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Speaker 3: Me and Narissa did not have our mother involved in

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Speaker 3: our life, but our father was involved in till the

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Speaker 3: day he passed. He was always there for us.

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Speaker 4: I never actually knew my mother, but my dad was.

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Speaker 4: He was the best thing for me.

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Speaker 1: And that's Narissa. The sisters have always been close and

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Speaker 1: both girls adored their father.

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Speaker 3: He was.

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Speaker 4: He was quite a big man. I guess he's six

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Speaker 4: footy three.

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Speaker 5: He was.

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Speaker 4: He's really into sports. He's a hockey player himself, a

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Speaker 4: basketball player, and he used to be coached on a

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Speaker 4: team on a reserve. I mean, we didn't have nothing

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Speaker 4: to eat or no power, you know, as long as

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Speaker 4: he was there, and that's that's what mattered to me.

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Speaker 3: He did his best. He wasn't perfect. Nobody's perfect.

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Speaker 1: Life for the girls growing up was rough, Canada's Indigenous

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Speaker 1: populations have long faced systemic racism, poverty, violence, and substance

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Speaker 1: addiction were rampant on the reserve where they lived.

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Speaker 3: Seeing people relatives trying to commit suicide, being babysat while

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Speaker 3: our father trusted someone, and then having a relative commit

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Speaker 3: suicide shoot himself.

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Speaker 6: And we were.

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Speaker 5: Little kids getting put.

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Speaker 3: In a pat and you know it's we had a

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Speaker 3: tough life.

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Speaker 1: But the cues On siblings looked out for each other.

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Speaker 1: Odelia especially tried to protect her younger sisters.

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Speaker 3: I love my sisters, and I remember times where we

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Speaker 3: did go hungry. We always used to tell each other

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Speaker 3: to stay, you know, be strong, be strong.

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Speaker 5: Sometimes times it was tough.

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Speaker 1: Like generations of family members before them, Odelia and Nourissa

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Speaker 1: were sent away to residential schools at a very young age, like.

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Speaker 3: My dad couldn't raise all of us kids on his own,

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Speaker 3: And then we were sent to our grandparents and then

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Speaker 3: to the residential schools. We went to the Bread Boarding School,

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Speaker 3: and and there's one called Maraval Boarding School that we

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Speaker 3: went to on Cows's first nation. You know, we were

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Speaker 3: as saying it was only eight and I don't even know,

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Speaker 3: I was so young when I went, and all I

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Speaker 3: remember is loneliness.

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Speaker 1: Canada's Indian residential school system, as it was called, was

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Speaker 1: established in the eighteen seventies with the goal of assimilating

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Speaker 1: indigenous children into white society. The schools were run by Catholic, Anglican, Methodist,

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Speaker 1: and Presbyterian churches. For children like Odelia Nourissa, who had

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Speaker 1: grown up surrounded by extended family and tribal elders on

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Speaker 1: the reserve, being dropped into a Christian school education system

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Speaker 1: was total culture shock.

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Speaker 3: They take away your esteemed, they take away everything because

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Speaker 3: it's like it's an institution and you know, all a

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Speaker 3: bunch of young kids that are you know, were just

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Speaker 3: children being being told to get up at certain time

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Speaker 3: in the morning, going to church, going doing all this stuff.

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Speaker 1: In your kid students were forced to sing and pray

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Speaker 1: in Latin while their own cultural and spiritual beliefs were

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Speaker 1: stifled or beaten out of them. For those who didn't conform,

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Speaker 1: punishment was swift and harsh.

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Speaker 3: And I remember though, like one time wanting to go

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Speaker 3: to the bathroom and you know, I got put in

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Speaker 3: the middle of the dorm hat to nail for hours.

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Speaker 3: You know, as a child I used to, you know,

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Speaker 3: like eight seven years old, wanting to wishing to die.

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Speaker 5: That's terrible. Well who do you turn to, you know?

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Speaker 5: But we survived it. We survived it.

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Speaker 1: Many survivors of the resident school system recall being severely

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Speaker 1: beaten and repeatedly sexually assaulted by supervisors and then nearissa.

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Speaker 7: I think I've read that you actually you have like

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Speaker 7: a spine problem with your back because of what happened

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Speaker 7: to you at residential school.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, from trauma from my body is not wasn't quite developed,

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Speaker 4: so my bones are kind of whatever.

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Speaker 7: And that's from being attacked at the school, from being beaten, like.

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Speaker 4: Every blows to my body. It wasn't formed or I guess.

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Speaker 4: I remember even as a child, I used to wonder

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Speaker 4: why God was so mean? Now took a kid.

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Speaker 1: The last of these schools was closed in nineteen ninety six,

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Speaker 1: but not before generations of Indigenous children had been permanently scarred,

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Speaker 1: both physically and emotionally by their treatment. This arguably contributed

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Speaker 1: to the system disenfranchisement of Indigenous people in Canada, creating

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Speaker 1: a highly vulnerable population.

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Speaker 6: How old were y'all when you left the school and

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Speaker 6: how did you get out?

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Speaker 1: Of there.

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Speaker 3: My mother passed died when I was fourteen, and I

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Speaker 3: think I don't know how fifteen when I left boarding school.

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Speaker 1: Ohdelia dropped out of school and moved to Edmonton to

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Speaker 1: live with family.

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Speaker 3: There.

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Speaker 1: She continued to try to look out for her little sister,

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Speaker 1: but Nourissa was still having a hard time at school,

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Speaker 1: and she'd been getting into trouble with the law starting

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Speaker 1: at age thirteen.

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Speaker 6: What did you go to prison for the first time?

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Speaker 4: First time was I was the young a founder me

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Speaker 4: for a stolen vehicle and that's where it escalated. There

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Speaker 4: was nothing violence. I never had any violence on my

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Speaker 4: record this till my adult charge.

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Speaker 1: Her time spent in prison started Noriissa on the road

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Speaker 1: to alcohol and hard drugs at a young age.

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Speaker 4: I never was introduced that till I went to prison.

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Speaker 4: Like sure, I used to smoke to odd joints once

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Speaker 4: in a while, but like take the odd pill. You know,

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Speaker 4: I became an addict in prison.

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Speaker 1: By nineteen ninety three, O'delia was twenty one and Norissa

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Speaker 1: was eighteen. They had both moved back to the Keyscous

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Speaker 1: Reserve and were living with their sisters Orlina and her

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Speaker 1: husband and kids. Their fifteen year old cousin, Jason Kashane,

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Speaker 1: lived across the road. On the night of February twenty fourth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, Jason stole fifteen tablets of the drug

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Speaker 1: Restoral from his grandma. He Odelia, and Norissa all took

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Speaker 1: the sedative, which is used to treat insomnia. It can

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Speaker 1: cause severe drowsiness and went combined with alcohol periodic blackouts.

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Speaker 1: Later that evening, Jason called an acquaintance, seventy year old

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Speaker 1: Joseph Dolph, to come and pick them up. Dolf had

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Speaker 1: worked as a maintenance man at Saint Philip's, one of

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Speaker 1: the residential schools they had attended. He was known to

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Speaker 1: regularly invite young Indigenous women and girls to his home.

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Speaker 1: That night, Dolf wanted to party and they all got

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Speaker 1: in his car.

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Speaker 2: He picked them up brought them to his fairly remote

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Speaker 2: home in Comsuck, Saskatchewan. I fact was very remote, and

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Speaker 2: provided them with beer and whiskey. This is James Lockyer,

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Speaker 2: I'm Innocents Canada's Council for the Cuzan's Sisters, Adealer of Nursa.

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Speaker 1: With the restaurant already in their systems, the sisters became

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Speaker 1: more and more inebriated. Later, they would have a hard

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Speaker 1: time remembering everything that occurred that night. Jason later testified

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Speaker 1: that Dolf and Odelia left to go get beer. When

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Speaker 1: they returned, they all continued drinking, finishing off a large

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Speaker 1: bottle of whiskey Dolf provided, and it seemed he had

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Speaker 1: an agenda.

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Speaker 2: And during the course of the evening, Dolf tried to

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Speaker 2: persuade Adelia.

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Speaker 8: And Nerissa to have sex with him.

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Speaker 2: They refused and it led to some dispute between them.

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Speaker 1: Around one o'clock in the morning, they persuaded Dolf to

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Speaker 1: drive them all home, and.

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Speaker 2: On the way home, Dolf realized that he had three

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Speaker 2: hundred dollars missing from his wallet, and he decided to

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Speaker 2: turn around and go back home.

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Speaker 1: Back at the house, Dolf accused the three of stealing

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Speaker 1: the money from him. They denied it, and an argument ensued.

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Speaker 1: The next day, the police were called to Joseph Dolf's home.

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Speaker 1: When they entered, they found the place completely trashed, with

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Speaker 1: furniture turned over and talcum powder sprinkled all around. Dolf's

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Speaker 1: body was face down in the bedroom. He'd been stabbed

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Speaker 1: over a dozen times in the chest, abdomen, back, and

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Speaker 1: left arm. A knife was still in his stomach and

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Speaker 1: a phone cord was wrapped around his neck. There were

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Speaker 1: blunt force injuries on his head and a fracture near

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Speaker 1: his right eye. When the police started asking around the

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Speaker 1: community about who could have been involved.

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Speaker 2: They quickly ascertained that the two Cusant's sisters and Jason

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Speaker 2: hab been at his house that night.

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Speaker 8: They were all three arrested.

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Speaker 1: That morning. O'delia, Nourissa, and Jason were taken to the

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Speaker 1: Kamsack Police Detachment by the RCMP, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police.

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Speaker 1: The sisters were stripped to their underwear and placed in

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Speaker 1: concrete cells with only raincoats to wear. Later, they were

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Speaker 1: given sweatpants and sweatshirts. Both women spoke with lawyers who

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Speaker 1: told the police that their clients were not to be questioned.

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Speaker 1: The next day, the Justice of the Peace ordered that

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Speaker 1: the cis be remanded to the nearest jail. This was Friday.

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Speaker 2: However, the police ignored that order and kept them until

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Speaker 2: the following Tuesday in the police detachment, so that they

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Speaker 2: were a matter of eight steps from numerous all white,

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Speaker 2: all male police officers in the Camsack detachment in Canada,

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Speaker 2: If you want to hold someone for more than twenty

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Speaker 2: four hours in police custody, you have to get judicial authorization.

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Speaker 2: And they were held in the cells there for a

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Speaker 2: total of five nights. And on these most unpleasant cells

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Speaker 2: which I've seen, they have a seventeenth century appearance to them.

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Speaker 2: Very thick white concrete walls, probably twelve to fifteen inches thick,

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Speaker 2: with bars going from ceiling to ground, and you know,

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Speaker 2: hard cold steel bunks with no bedding, so you know,

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Speaker 2: a very its very nature, highly intimidating for both of them.

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Speaker 1: Meanwhile, their cousin, Jason, was also being questioned, and on

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Speaker 1: the very first day.

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Speaker 2: Jason confessed to the homicide, and his confession was recorded

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Speaker 2: on tape, a tape recording that somehow was not available.

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Speaker 2: When it came to the questioning of Nourissa and Adelia

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Speaker 2: to being the one who did the.

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Speaker 1: Stabbings, the sisters were told that Jason had confessed to

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Speaker 1: the murder and that he implicated them as well, which

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Speaker 1: was later found not to be true. The two were

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Speaker 1: questioned repeatedly by the RCMP over the next four days.

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Speaker 2: They have memory being extremely scared, of course, and frightened

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Speaker 2: around all these men. These what to them were big,

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Speaker 2: burly white men, continually bringing them out of the cells

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Speaker 2: and questioning them again, and putting them back in and

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Speaker 2: questioning them again.

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Speaker 8: Over day after day. They had no lawyers, and the

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Speaker 8: police knew what they wanted, They knew what they were doing.

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Speaker 8: They had to.

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Speaker 2: Get these two girls to say things that somehow tied

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Speaker 2: them into mister Dolph's murder. The police alleged that they

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Speaker 2: gave verbal statements not recorded that slowly but surely amounted

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Speaker 2: to more incriminating statements. So as I say, they got

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Speaker 2: ad Elia to admit one stab wound out of more

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Speaker 2: than forty, how did they get.

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Speaker 7: The girls to confess to this?

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Speaker 2: There's no doubt there was intimidating taxics used. These were

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Speaker 2: two young Indigenous women trying to cope with police officers,

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Speaker 2: white police officers.

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Speaker 8: All male.

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Speaker 2: More than that, they were both victims of the residential

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Speaker 2: school system. They were highly vulnerable individuals. Well never really

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Speaker 2: know exactly what happened because none of it was recorded,

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Speaker 2: they had no lawyers. It was made clearer than what

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Speaker 2: they wanted to hear. The policeman wrote out what they

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Speaker 2: claimed the girls were saying. One of Nourissa's statements was

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Speaker 2: clearly not her words, and on the basis of those

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Speaker 2: unrecorded statements that the police alleged they gave, they were

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Speaker 2: convicted the following year after a trial before a jud

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Speaker 2: Johann of course, not surprisingly in all White Jury.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling.

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Speaker 1: You can listen to this and all the Lover for

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Speaker 1: Good podcasts one week early and ad free by subscribing

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Speaker 1: to LoVa for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: Adelia and Nourissa testified at their trials. The trouble is

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Speaker 2: that they had it made clear to them that it

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Speaker 2: was not in their interest to try and challenge the

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Speaker 2: versions of events given by the RCMP officers in front

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Speaker 2: of the jury, because if they did, they'd be disbelieved.

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Speaker 1: After the years they'd spent at residential schools, the girls

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Speaker 1: were conditioned to succumb to authority and believed no one

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Speaker 1: would help them.

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Speaker 2: They were told to stay in line as to how

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Speaker 2: they were treated by the police, who of course testified

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Speaker 2: that they treated them well, etc. Etc. For those five days,

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Speaker 2: even though they shouldn't have been in the police station

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Speaker 2: for four of them, and no one really seemed to

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Speaker 2: see much wrong without a trial.

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Speaker 8: Certainly the trial judge didn't.

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Speaker 2: Her name was Justice Gunn was her name. So they

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Speaker 2: tried to fall into step, you might say, with what

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Speaker 2: the RCMP officers said. Not entirely, but they did their

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Speaker 2: best to so that they're claim that they had not

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Speaker 2: been involved in mister Dolph's murder will be.

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Speaker 8: More likely believed.

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Speaker 2: And this was classic for those times that Indigenous people

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Speaker 2: were told by their own lawyers that you know, if

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Speaker 2: it's your word against the police, no one's going to

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Speaker 2: believe you.

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Speaker 7: So for people in the US who don't know about

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Speaker 7: the systemic abuses of Indigenous people in Canada, can you

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Speaker 7: describe that a little bit.

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Speaker 8: Well, it's not unlike your country.

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Speaker 2: It's very much a colonial history where we colonize the

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Speaker 2: original peoples are part of the continent, and you did

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Speaker 2: the same in your part of the continent. The RCMP

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Speaker 2: has in the past and still to this day, engages

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Speaker 2: in systemic racism towards Indigenous peoples. That's acknowledged publicly, i

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Speaker 2: might say, with some reluctance, but nevertheless acknowledged. The case

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Speaker 2: of Adelia and Urus are just smacks of this. Here

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Speaker 2: we have two young girls, both indigenous. I mean if

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Speaker 2: you or I had been the ones arrested in February

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Speaker 2: of nineteen ninety three, they wouldn't have held us in

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Speaker 2: the police cells for five days in complete violation of

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Speaker 2: a judicial order. They're victims of systemic discrimination, and it

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Speaker 2: obviously includes within it then the failure of the police

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Speaker 2: to make any attempt to record any of the interviews,

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Speaker 2: despite the fact that the recording equipment was right there

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Speaker 2: in the police station. Their failure to obey a judicial

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Speaker 2: order for day after day after day, their failure to

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Speaker 2: in any way document the conditions of both a dealer

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Speaker 2: and Urissa, that their level of intoxication on arrest, their

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Speaker 2: level of drug taking, and overall the fact that it's

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Speaker 2: become known in the last twenty years that false confessions

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Speaker 2: are a regular feature of wrongful convictions, and false confession

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Speaker 2: above all come from those who are vulnerable in the

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Speaker 2: first place.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So going back to the trial, o'delia and Narisso

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Speaker 1: were tried in the Court of Queen's Benson, Yorkton before

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Speaker 1: Madame Justice Ellen Gunn, And as you said earlier, it

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Speaker 1: was an all white jury, and we've heard how the

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Speaker 1: sisters were basically forced to incriminate themselves at trial, But

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Speaker 1: what did their lawyers present in defense.

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Speaker 2: Their defense was that the two women were both drunk

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Speaker 2: at the time and therefore their responsibility meant they should

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Speaker 2: only be convicted of manslaughter. It was like a sort

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Speaker 2: of a semi surrender defense.

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Speaker 1: So they didn't bring up a foss confession.

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Speaker 8: No, they did not.

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Speaker 2: Jason was called by the Crown as a witness, and

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Speaker 2: indeed when he testified at trial, he implicated himself and

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Speaker 2: said that he was the one who had stabbed mister Doff.

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Speaker 1: At trial, Jason told a more complete story of what

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Speaker 1: happened that night. Jason said, once they all returned to

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Speaker 1: the house, Joseph Dolph went looking for his missing money.

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Speaker 1: They all got into an altercation and Narissa hit Dolf

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Speaker 1: on the head with a porcelain ornament, which broke in

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Speaker 1: a tea kettle. O'dela hit him with a whiskey bottle.

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Speaker 1: Jason punched Dolf, who was going after Narissa, then followed

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Speaker 1: him into the bedroom and choked him with a telephone cord.

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Speaker 1: Then he grabbed a knife from the kitchen and stabbed

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Speaker 1: Dolf repeatedly, finally leaving the knife in his body. He

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Speaker 1: said o'delia and Nourissa were in another room together crying.

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Speaker 1: After Jason finished assaulting Dolf, the three trashed the house.

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Speaker 1: Then Jason took Dolph's keys and drove them all home.

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Speaker 1: It would later come out that Jason was told to

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Speaker 1: implicate o'dela Noarissa by saying they had hit Dolf. According

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Speaker 1: to Jason, they actually hadn't. He had been the sole attacker. However,

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Speaker 1: Jason's testimony did corroborate the sister's assertion that they were

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Speaker 1: not the ones who had killed Joseph Dolph. He was.

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Speaker 2: He'd already pleaded guilty to the crime. He was a

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Speaker 2: fifteen year old, so he pleaded guilty under the Young

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Speaker 2: Offender's Act and received a sentence of five years. So

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Speaker 2: the real killer was in for five years, and at

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Speaker 2: his age, he shouldn't.

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Speaker 8: Have been in for longer than that. I would hasten

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Speaker 8: to add.

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Speaker 7: Was he asked directly if the girls did and did

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Speaker 7: he say no or was he just not yes?

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Speaker 1: Okay? And he said no, they did not.

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Speaker 8: Yes, he said he's the winner stabbed them.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 7: So even though they were not implicated at the trial

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Speaker 7: by him, they're still convicted. Yes, on February fourth, nineteen

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Speaker 7: ninety four, Odelia and Narissa were convicted of second degree

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Speaker 7: murder and sentenced to life in prison with the possibility

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Speaker 7: of parole in ten years. While she was incarcerated, Odela

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Speaker 7: stayed connected with her partner, Jay, whom she'd known since

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Speaker 7: she was eighteen.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand and one, she gave birth to their

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Speaker 1: daughter and six years later twin girls.

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Speaker 3: My oldest daughter, Hayley, she lived in prison for two

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Speaker 3: years with me.

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Speaker 6: What was that like living with your daughter in prison?

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Speaker 5: I was just grateful she was there with me.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it was like, you know, but do you know

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Speaker 3: what my daughter today, she's very outspoken, and she had

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Speaker 3: a lot of Auntie and Cook Coombs in there to

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Speaker 3: take care of her, you know, like she was allowed

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Speaker 3: to be a child in there.

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Speaker 6: Were there other were there other women with kids?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Wow?

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Speaker 7: And so once your daughters, you know, left prison and

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Speaker 7: were older, who were they living with And what was

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Speaker 7: that like to try and parent from behind bars?

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Speaker 3: My daughters they were living with their father and he

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Speaker 3: took care of them and he brought them to visit me.

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Speaker 3: I read a couple months.

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Speaker 5: I talked on a phone with them a lot.

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Speaker 6: How do you do being a dad?

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Speaker 3: I think he did pretty good.

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Speaker 5: Kind of spoiled their girls, but in a good way though.

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Speaker 1: While in prison, Odelia also earned her ged, completed a

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Speaker 1: number of programs, and worked in the library, horticulture, kitchen,

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Speaker 1: and daycare. She grew to be respected as a leader

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Speaker 1: by both prisoners and staff. Norissa earned a degree in

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Speaker 1: adult education from the University of Saskatoon while at the

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Speaker 1: Edmonton Institution for Women, the first incarcerated person to graduate

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Speaker 1: from the university and attend her own convocation. She also

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Speaker 1: earned a degree in animal welfare and worked as a

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Speaker 1: dog trainer. Nearly ten years into their sentence, the sisters

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Speaker 1: hit a milestone, so.

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Speaker 2: As of February twenty fourth, two thousand and three, they

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Speaker 2: were eligible for Pearl.

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Speaker 8: They didn't get it, and when they did.

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Speaker 2: Release them a couple of times they imposed these onerous

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Speaker 2: conditions on them, which not surprisingly, they violated. So in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty abyve the time David Milgard came to me.

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Speaker 2: They both served more than they were actually by then.

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Speaker 2: That's served twenty eight years of their sentences.

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Speaker 1: In James, can you explain who David Milgard is and

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Speaker 1: how he became involved in this case.

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Speaker 2: David was a person who had spent twenty three years

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Speaker 2: in prison in Canada for a great murder he did

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Speaker 2: not commit, and ever since his exoneration, continued to advocate

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Speaker 2: for the wrongly convicted and Nourissa and Adelia Cusance approached

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Speaker 2: him in I think in the summer of twenty twenty,

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Speaker 2: and David then asked me if I would take on

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Speaker 2: their case?

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Speaker 1: So, why did you believe in their innocence? What convinced

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Speaker 1: you of that?

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Speaker 2: Taking into account the whole systemic racism involved in this,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't a hard one. Once I had a chance

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Speaker 2: to read the trial transcripts, the case to me stank

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Speaker 2: when I saw that they had been held in custody

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Speaker 2: in the police station for five days. That that in

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Speaker 2: itself did it for me. I'd never heard of such

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Speaker 2: a thing, never.

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Speaker 1: And so what was your strategy for getting them out?

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Speaker 2: Adelia and Nurissa had had their appeals dismissed in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety five, a year after their convictions four paragraph judgment

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Speaker 2: of the Saskatchewan Court of Appeal, which kind of shows

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Speaker 2: you how much attention was given to their case. The

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Speaker 2: only method of challenging a conviction in Canada. After all

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Speaker 2: appeal processes have been exhausted, and after their appeals have

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Speaker 2: been lost, their only avenue of recourse was to go

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Speaker 2: to the Minister of Justice who's in our capital city

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Speaker 2: in Ottawa, and ask him to review their convictions and

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Speaker 2: determine whether they constituted theous charriage of justice.

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Speaker 1: So you did that in twenty twenty two, and then

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Speaker 1: what did you present to the minister.

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Speaker 2: We gave a whole list of reasons as to why

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Speaker 2: these convictions constitutedious charriage of justice. We pointed out that

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Speaker 2: Canada's treatment of Indigenous peoples and this case was a

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Speaker 2: classic abuse of Indigenous peoples, especially women. We talked about

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Speaker 2: the impacts of systemic discrimination on the two of them

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Speaker 2: in the investigation.

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Speaker 1: And so to this day, does Jason still maintain that

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Speaker 1: o'delia and Nurissa were not involved.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I've met Jason a couple of times. Of course,

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Speaker 2: he's now in his mid forties. He's had a pretty

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Speaker 2: difficult life since and bears besides the guilt of stabbing

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Speaker 2: mister Dolph, for the guilt of having implicated Nurisa and

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Speaker 2: Adelia by what he did. But yes, he maintains they

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Speaker 2: had nothing to do with it, and his statement to

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Speaker 2: that effect, which he put in writing, enabled us to

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Speaker 2: bring a release application for them until the Minister made

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Speaker 2: his final decision.

443
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 8: And I'm glad to say that on March.

444
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 2: Twenty seventh of twenty twenty three, more than thirty years

445
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,399
Speaker 2: after their original arrests and imprisonment, they were released on

446
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 2: bail and they're both presently on bail.

447
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: The situation these two women found themselves in is unfortunately

448
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: not unusual. According to Canada's Office of the Congressional Investigator,

449
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: over fifty percent of incarcerated women in Canada are Indigenous.

450
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 1: Indigenous people are historically more likely to be arrested for

451
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: serious crimes, are rarely tried by their peers, and are

452
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: more likely to be convicted. And like at the residential

453
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: schools where they were first institutionalized, Indigenous people continue to

454
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: face systemic racism and abuse throughout the prison and parole system.

455
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 7: Does the law in Canada seem to be more understanding

456
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 7: now of the plight of Indigenous folks and what they

457
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 7: have gone through and suffered, you know, particularly like o'dellia

458
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 7: Narissa winding up in a situation like this because of

459
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 7: the systemic abuse.

460
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 2: To some extent, the answer is yes. Having said that,

461
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: we have a huge problem in Canada because the Indigenous

462
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,479
Speaker 2: percentages in the prisons are going up and up and

463
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 2: up year by year by year. The denials of parole

464
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 2: for the Indigenous are going up and up and up.

465
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 2: The number of Indigenous being found to be dangerous offenders

466
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 2: and subject to life sentences are going up and up

467
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 2: and up. So whilst there may be more recognition, particularly

468
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 2: with the present government that talks a great deal about

469
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 2: the need for truth and reconciliation with our Indigenous people,

470
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 2: at the criminal justice level, things are just terribly.

471
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:44,479
Speaker 8: Wrong, right.

472
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 7: You know, parole here is pretty awful as well. How

473
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 7: is it in Canada? Why is it so bad if

474
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 7: you're Indigenous?

475
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 8: Because they don't release you. That's the SATs. I mean,

476
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 8: there are many reasons for this.

477
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: But a very simple part of a systemic discrimination is

478
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 2: they have ah whole system whereby they assess what they

479
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 2: call the criminogenic factors of the individual, the likelihood that

480
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: they will re offend if released, and the assessments are

481
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 2: conducted according to the thinking and customs of the white man,

482
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 2: not the thinking, customs and cultures of the Indigenous, and

483
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 2: it's been proved very clearly that that means that the

484
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 2: Indigenous are always overassessed in terms of the likelihood of

485
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 2: their reoffending, which automatically is then used to justify denying

486
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 2: them parole. And then when they do release you, they

487
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 2: release you on conditions that are almost bound to be violated.

488
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 2: No alcohol, no drugs, curfews, those kinds of things which

489
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 2: people who are Indigenous likely not very stable, don't have

490
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 2: stable environments to return to, are going to be living

491
00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 2: potentially on reserves, almost bound to violate drinking, and you're

492
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 2: on a life sentence. You're back in two three years

493
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: before you're next entitled to even be considered for parole.

494
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: Even though Odelia and Narissa were released in March, they

495
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: have not been exonerated of Joseph Dolf's murder. They're still

496
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: living under parole conditions while they await ministerial review, hoping

497
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: for the decision that would finally allow them to live

498
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: fully free.

499
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 5: For me and my sister at this time, like I know,

500
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 5: all I have is to wait and is waked and wait.

501
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 1: Odelia is now back at home with Jay and their

502
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: twin daughters. Nourissa is living with a good friend, an advocate,

503
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: Kim Bowden and his wife Rhonda.

504
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 4: He's the Congress of Amagual People of Canada Vice president

505
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 4: and yeah, he's myself is I just love him and Rohnda. No,

506
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 4: he's a great man, and I usually have a hard

507
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 4: time trusting man.

508
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: After nearly three decades in prison, both sisters, now fifty

509
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: one and forty nine, are doing their best to adjust

510
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: to life outside of prison walls while on parole.

511
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 4: But for myself it's a real it's different because I'm

512
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 4: so institutionalized that I'm used to everything coming. Like if

513
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 4: I had to go see the doctor, I just had

514
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 4: to go across across the road and or go get

515
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 4: groceries just across the hallway. Maybe so, and now here

516
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 4: it's it's hard to do. I kind of I've only

517
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 4: ridden on a bus once since I've been out here.

518
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 4: I have really bad anxiety, and I noticed that I

519
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 4: get really irritable and stuff like that, so I don't

520
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 4: really like being around people.

521
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 7: I understand that you were You were in a prison

522
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 7: with a lot of people for a long time.

523
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 6: How about you, Adelia, what kinds of things that you're

524
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 6: a mom?

525
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: What's that like.

526
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 3: It's been a challenge because I've been away from them

527
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 3: for so much many years. So it's rekindling with my

528
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 3: daughters and getting to know them.

529
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 9: And you know, there's there's a lot of resentments, you know,

530
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 9: and I feel them like I we have a good relationship,

531
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 9: like I try to be my best fights my girls

532
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 9: and you know, give them what they want.

533
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 5: But it's hard. It's hard to.

534
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 3: Be honest, you know what.

535
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 5: I feel useless.

536
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 3: Sometimes I feel like I, you know, so went down institutionalize.

537
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 10: I don't know what to do on my own. Sometimes

538
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 10: I want to do things, make things different. I'm still

539
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 10: hopeful about, you know, my future. But like I said,

540
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,120
Speaker 10: it's it's hard. It's a struggle when you.

541
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 3: Just yeah, like great, now I'm starting to get getting

542
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 3: getting out of my bedroom as I'm so used to

543
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 3: being in a room.

544
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:51,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what I do too. I spend a lot

545
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 4: of room time. I do a lot of sull time.

546
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 7: Still, yeah, yeah, I understand that. I hear that from

547
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 7: a lot of people who have been inside. It's it's

548
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 7: it's scary.

549
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 8: Yeah.

550
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 3: I always tell myself, you're okay, you're safe. Now, You're okay.

551
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 3: It's going to be okay.

552
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 5: I always tell myself that my younger solf.

553
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,439
Speaker 1: Of Delia and Nerissa have found strength in going to conferences,

554
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: meeting other axonnarees and telling their story.

555
00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 3: I want to help people and I want to be

556
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 3: an advocate for women and children.

557
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 4: I remember when I was younger, when I was in jail,

558
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 4: like even before I went to BC, I used to say,

559
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 4: one day, I'm going to climb that mountain, you know,

560
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 4: And that's what it meant for me. It is like,

561
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 4: you know, one day I'm going to get there to

562
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 4: the top, you know.

563
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 6: So where is the top of that mountain for you?

564
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 4: Well, I'm there already.

565
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: Just as they did when they were children, the Q

566
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: Zone sisters are still looking out for each other, and

567
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 1: as they continued to fight for their innocence, both of

568
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: them credit their own faith as it was taught to

569
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: them by their elders, with keeping them strong.

570
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 3: I follow my traditional native spirituality, so I pray, we

571
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 3: call the Creator, So I do a lot of prayers

572
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:19,799
Speaker 3: in offering tobacco, and I teach my daughters so.

573
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,480
Speaker 4: Prayer is powerful. That's all we have when you're in

574
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 4: prison is prayer.

575
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 3: And prayer is powerful because I know Nobody's greater than

576
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 3: that creator.

577
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty, more than fifty unmarked graves were discovered

578
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: on the grounds of two residential schools near the Keyscus

579
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:04,240
Speaker 1: Reserve for Pelly and Saint Philip's. Investigation is ongoing into

580
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 1: who those children were, how they died, and how many

581
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: more graves are yet to be discovered. Thank you for

582
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. Please support your

583
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: local innocence organizations and go to the links in the

584
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 1: episode description to see how you can help. I'd like

585
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: to thank our executive producers Jason Flamm, Jeff Kempler, and

586
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,560
Speaker 1: Kevin Wortis, as well as senior producer Annie Chelsea, producer

587
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 1: Kathleen Fink, story editor Hannah Beale, and researcher Shelby Sorels.

588
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 1: Mixing and sound design are by Jackie Pauley, with additional

589
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: production by Jeff Cleiburn and Connor Hall. The music in

590
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 1: this production is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

591
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on all social media platforms

592
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: at Lava for Good and at Wrongful Conviction. You can

593
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 1: also follow me on all platforms at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful

594
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a production of Lava for

595
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one