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Speaker 1: Okay, everyone, buckle up for the thrilling conclusion of Iran

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Speaker 1: Contra Shady in the Eighties, Part two.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's

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Speaker 1: Charles t w Tuck, Brian, there's Jerry over there. And

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Speaker 1: this is Stuff you Should Know. Iran Contra Part two,

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Speaker 1: starting now go.

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Speaker 2: Maybe we should do a quick catch up. Okay, well

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Speaker 2: we're still going. You act to like I just went

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Speaker 2: to sleep.

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Speaker 1: No, it's true.

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Speaker 2: So what's going on here is the United States is

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Speaker 2: Congress has decided that we cannot fund the Contras to

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Speaker 2: fight the Sandinistas in Nicaragua. Shut off funding. So the

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Speaker 2: Reagan administration makes a deep covert push to continue doing

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Speaker 2: so right through a bunch of fun and shady ways.

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Speaker 1: Right, they're fundraising, they're directly arming the Contras, they're training them,

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Speaker 1: doing all sorts of crazy stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but if you know that this is about Iran

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Speaker 2: Contra and you're like, what about Iran? What's going on here?

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Speaker 2: I haven't heard anything about Iran?

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Speaker 1: Keep your socks on.

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Speaker 2: Well, here we go. This is where Iran enters.

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Speaker 1: The picture, right, you can take your socks off, all right,

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Speaker 1: go are your socks on?

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Speaker 2: I've got on little footy socks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I do too cool. Oh, Jerry does too sweet.

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Speaker 1: It's the way to go.

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Speaker 2: Jerry has those true footies where you can't even see

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Speaker 2: him at all. I can see you mind peak out

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Speaker 2: just a little, which I'm not a huge fan of.

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Speaker 1: Well, check out my mind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, noms, no sms.

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Speaker 1: Okay, enter Iran. We really that was a great intro

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Speaker 1: and it just went away.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: So on the other side of the world from Nicker,

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Speaker 1: there was another foreign policy disaster simmering that Reagan had going,

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Speaker 1: and it was in the form of Iran, and specifically,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't even the form of run. It was in

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Speaker 1: the form of a problem that America had doesn't really

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Speaker 1: have much these days, but definitely did in the seventies

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Speaker 1: and eighties where Americans would be taken hostage around the world,

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Speaker 1: but specifically, almost exclusively by Lebanese terrorists who were, if

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Speaker 1: not working on behalf of Iran, were definitely sponsored by Iran.

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Speaker 1: And regardless of who was president, the fact that there

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Speaker 1: were hostages being held by another country and there wasn't

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Speaker 1: anything we could do about it. That was a real

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Speaker 1: blemish on the presidency. It was not a very proud

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Speaker 1: thing to think about for America. But that was a

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Speaker 1: reality for a while there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we ran at the time. This is the

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Speaker 2: early eighties. This is just a few years removed from

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Speaker 2: the Iranian Revolution of nineteen seventy nine, and this is

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Speaker 2: where we talked about it before. Go look up photos

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Speaker 2: of Iran in the mid seventies pre revolution, right, and

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Speaker 2: it looks like London in the swinging sixties and seventies. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: very kind of hit place to be. Iranian revolution happens.

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Speaker 2: Fundamentalists take control of the government that was previously the

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Speaker 2: Shaw of Iran, who was friendly to the West, sure,

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Speaker 2: friendly to America generally, and the Iatola Komeni.

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Speaker 1: Kohmani I've always heard Kohmane.

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Speaker 2: Kohmani installed the Islamic theocracy and bad things started happening

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Speaker 2: pretty quickly.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, there was a It was about as quick

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Speaker 1: a turn about face politically and socially as you could imagine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for a whole country, yeah, yeah, but not everyone

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Speaker 2: in the country, as we'll learn, Like the whole country

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Speaker 2: didn't just change overnight.

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Speaker 1: No, but the the Islamic theocracy was in power, sure,

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Speaker 1: very much. So. One of the things that happened was

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Speaker 1: they were not very fond of America or Americans, and

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Speaker 1: the American embassy was famously stormed and sixty six Americans

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Speaker 1: working there were taken hostage and held for more than

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Speaker 1: a year.

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Speaker 2: Man. That was like, this is stuff I really remember.

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Speaker 1: Like four hundred and forty days or.

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Speaker 2: Something, four hundred and forty four days, man, the Iranian

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Speaker 2: hostage crisis. I remember this as a nine year old

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Speaker 2: very clearly.

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Speaker 1: Really, Oh yeah, I have no recollection.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a big deal, yellow ribbons, and it

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Speaker 2: was on the news constantly.

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Speaker 1: I remember entering the room and being like, what does

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Speaker 1: this have to do with Rainbow Bright turn this newscast?

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Speaker 2: I even remember. So what happened was Jimmy Carter did

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Speaker 2: not get these hostages free during his his I was

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Speaker 2: about to say rain, but that was sort of the

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Speaker 2: opposite Jimmy Carter was during his administration is iron fisted rain.

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Speaker 1: The days of terror.

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Speaker 2: But within a few days, and that may have cast

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Speaker 2: some election, but within a few days of our hours,

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Speaker 2: even of Reagan's inauguration, the hostages were freed, and I

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Speaker 2: remember as a nine year old hearing kids parroting their parents'

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Speaker 2: conversations like it was really Carter that had him freed

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Speaker 2: all the work he did up until then, and then

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Speaker 2: other kids saying, are you kidding me? As soon as

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Speaker 2: Reagan got in a office, they knew that they were

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Speaker 2: toast and that Reagan wasn't going to be a patsy

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Speaker 2: like Carter. And I was like, what's a patsy? Who

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Speaker 2: are these dudes? No, but I remember very distinctly, it's weird,

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Speaker 2: like on the playground hearing the stuff that's funny, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: like a little nine year olds.

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Speaker 1: I definitely didn't hear this when I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: but I remember hearing later on as a grown up,

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Speaker 1: still in the rainbow bright, that it was Reagan's campaign

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Speaker 1: was somehow in touch with aaran yeah, and that they brokeered.

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Speaker 1: This also got them to wait to release the hostages

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Speaker 1: until after Reagan was in office. Well, the timing was not.

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Speaker 2: At all hours after his inauguration. There's no accident.

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Speaker 1: It's a little fishy, you know what I mean. But

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Speaker 1: whether it was that's funny, I'm sure somebody's parents were like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's because they were so scared of Reagan, they knew

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Speaker 1: that they better release these guys. That's totally not the

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Speaker 1: case because there were other hostages taken by other by

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Speaker 1: actual Lebanese terrorists who were probably sponsored by Iran, and

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Speaker 1: that were they were held throughout Reagan's presidency.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's sort of a big part of this.

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Speaker 2: The second half of the story was the fact that

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Speaker 2: that was very embarrassing for Reagan. He didn't like hostages

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Speaker 2: being held on his watch.

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Speaker 1: No, but he had campaigned against negotiating with terrorists under

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Speaker 1: any circumstances. So he's stuck now, Yeah, because he's basically saying,

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Speaker 1: if you get taken hostage, I mean, you're on your own. Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll use our rhetoric and whatever we can to influence

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Speaker 1: you being released, but we're not going to negotiate for

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Speaker 1: your release. That's just the way it is.

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Speaker 2: And that's a longstanding American policy, right, and it makes

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Speaker 2: sense because if you negotiate with terrorists, then that's just

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Speaker 2: going to need to more kidnappings. Yeah, because they know

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Speaker 2: that you're open for business.

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Speaker 1: Like anywhere in the world. Yeah, there was a kidnapping

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Speaker 1: of twa Flight eight forty seven, very very famous one,

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Speaker 1: you know, the picture of like the pilot leaning out

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Speaker 1: of the cop sure and the guys in the picture

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Speaker 1: with the gun behind him. That was eight forty seven, right,

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Speaker 1: And that was I mean, that was I remember that

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Speaker 1: one that was That was probably nine then, and that

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Speaker 1: was just scary because they were flying all over the place.

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Speaker 1: You had no idea what was going to happen. People

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Speaker 1: were being beaten on the plane. When Navy guy was

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Speaker 1: beaten in shot and throw his body thrown out on

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Speaker 1: the tarmac.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The eighties, like it seems comparatively tame now in

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Speaker 2: a lot of way as compared to the things that

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Speaker 2: used to go on. Tank McDonald's hi jackings and kidnappings

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Speaker 2: and hostages. It's like it was the eighties were nuts.

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Speaker 1: They were nuts.

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Speaker 2: But pac Man, right, you know, pac Man fevers, pac

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Speaker 2: Man rapping Rodney it was crazy.

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Speaker 1: Right, rapping Like is that Rodney Piper.

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Speaker 2: No rapping Rodney Dangerfield his big hit?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, no respect. What about what about the

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Speaker 1: Ichy Shuffle? That was a little crazy?

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Speaker 2: Was that eighties?

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Speaker 1: Sure? Late eighties, I guess so, okay, I got one

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Speaker 1: for you.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 1: The Bears, what was their thing?

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Speaker 2: Oh? The Super Bowl Shuffle?

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Speaker 1: Super Bowl Shuffle right, Yeah, that was pretty eighties. I

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Speaker 1: think they were eighty four.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're putting you know, my band every year plays

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Speaker 2: for sure one gig at Decatur's Porch Best, and every

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Speaker 2: year we try to do a theme, and this year

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Speaker 2: we're doing eighties sort of new wave. Nice and I

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Speaker 2: jokingly suggested pac Man Fever the Raping Rodney.

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Speaker 1: But oh, you guys gonna do it?

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Speaker 2: No, those songs are terrible.

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Speaker 1: Do you have a synth player playing with you?

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Speaker 2: I bought Emily a keyboard and she's learning.

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Speaker 1: Awesome. Yeah, she's gonna be like wait, hold on, huh,

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Speaker 1: that's cool man.

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Speaker 2: Now she's practicing.

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Speaker 1: I've heard her do that, and.

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Speaker 2: She played piano when she was a kid, so it's

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Speaker 2: not the biggest stretch.

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Speaker 1: I've heard that one that her do. That one Blondie

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Speaker 1: song that she just brought the house to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we might one way or another. Yes, we might

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Speaker 2: bring that back because that's eighties. Yeah, or was that?

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Speaker 1: It was so close on the custom I seriously doubt

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Speaker 1: anybody's going to throw a beer can at you for it.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, Porch Best, everyone, I'll publicize it in October. Nice,

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Speaker 2: So Reagan's hands are tied in every way possible because

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Speaker 2: he can't on he can't negotiate with Terris. The only

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Speaker 2: option is to send in a covert Delta Force.

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Speaker 1: Team, which they Carter tried that, and yeah, work.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't always work. You could lose your own men. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's what happened in Carter's case, right, yeah. Sure,

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Speaker 2: So what he can do though, without anyone knowing, is

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Speaker 2: totally negotiate with Terras.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just as long as the American public doesn't no, sure, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And that's what happened. And he followed that Reagan playbook

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Speaker 1: where it's like, okay, I said this, well, if I

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Speaker 1: just changed this one little part, right, it makes it

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Speaker 1: all fine. That's right, again, as long as the American

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Speaker 1: public doesn't know. So while Reagan said America will never

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Speaker 1: negotiate with with hostages, they didn't say Israel will never

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Speaker 1: nego terrorists for hostages, right, Yeah, So actually Israel had

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Speaker 1: a long standing policy of negotiating with terrorists. They would

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Speaker 1: they would kidnap people from the other side, and then

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Speaker 1: they'd be like, all right, i'll give you five guys.

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Speaker 1: I've only got two. Let me kidnap a few people, Okay, Now,

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Speaker 1: I have five like there would be negotiations for hostage

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Speaker 1: exchanges all the time between Israel and Palestine. Right, They

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Speaker 1: just knew what they were doing. So they said, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: if Israel goes to Iran and says, hey, you know

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Speaker 1: this American over there, why don't you get them released.

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Speaker 1: We can help you out with some stuff. What do

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Speaker 1: you think about this?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So earlier when I mentioned the fact that Iran

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Speaker 2: as whole cloth did not change overnight as a country.

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Speaker 2: The government did, but there were still some plenty of

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Speaker 2: people there that were a little more moderate in their views,

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Speaker 2: and the Reagan administration had a channel to them. So

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Speaker 2: he was talking to them, these more moderate factions and

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Speaker 2: making a little headway. And they were like, by the way,

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Speaker 2: we'll totally give you these hostages if you give us arms.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because Iran was fighting the Iran Iraq War at

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Speaker 1: least half of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And this is just where stuff is just totally crazy,

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Speaker 2: because we were we were funding both sides.

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Speaker 1: At the very least, we were advising both sides.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean we directly gave money. Oh yeah, no,

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Speaker 2: you're right, We sold them weapons and we provided training

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Speaker 2: and intelligence. Right, And this was this wasn't secret. This

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Speaker 2: was like a real deal thing.

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Speaker 1: We were publicly supporting Iraq, but then we were secretly

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Speaker 1: arming Iran.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think what they never proved beyond a doubt

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Speaker 2: was that we went to Saddam Hussein and said, hey,

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Speaker 2: why don't you go in there and overthrow Iran?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Really yeah, that was never I don't think that was ever.

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Speaker 2: There was a lot of circumstantial evidence that that was

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Speaker 2: the case, but never, like the smoking gun, that we

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Speaker 2: actually encouraged Saddam Hussein to do so. But it's just, man,

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Speaker 2: when you look at how all this played out over

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Speaker 2: the years, it's just maddening.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, yeah, it's a s show.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So Iraq and Iran are fighting, we're supplying both,

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Speaker 2: playing both sides of the coin, right, uh, And we

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Speaker 2: offered arms to Iran And who are you gonna call?

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Speaker 1: Is real?

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Speaker 2: Not ghostbusters?

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Speaker 1: Oh Gorbanaphar?

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Speaker 2: Well you're gonna call Ali North?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okay, yeah, I would have gotten there eventually. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because okay, so remember Oly North is this total novice

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Speaker 1: when it comes to covert operations bymore. Yeah, yeah, he's

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Speaker 1: been running the Nicaragua op for years now. Yeah, just

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Speaker 1: doing a bang up job of it. So they're like, well, sure,

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Speaker 1: we'll have him do this incredibly illegal, super sensitive arms

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Speaker 1: sailed to Iran too, Why don't you come on over here,

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Speaker 1: Ali and all. He said, well, okay, that's fine, but

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Speaker 1: I need to go get the lay of the land.

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Speaker 1: And he actually traveled to Iran with a fake passport

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Speaker 1: under an assumed name William P. Good with a knee

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Speaker 1: and when he went, it was it was dangerous enough

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Speaker 1: that William Casey, supposedly Oliver North later testified, gave him

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Speaker 1: cyanide pills so that he could take his own life

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Speaker 1: rather than be tortured by the Iranians. If this were

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Speaker 1: in fact like some sort of setup.

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Speaker 2: Again right out of a movie, yeah.

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Speaker 1: But Oliver North went to Iran with cyanide pills.

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Speaker 2: And a fake passport Billy Good.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so everything went great, though it did. He didn't

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Speaker 1: need the cyanide pills after all.

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Speaker 2: He did not. He dealt with, like you mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 2: this Iranian businessman named Gorbanifar. And this guy was ten

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Speaker 2: shades of shady, so much so that the CIA wouldn't

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Speaker 2: even deal with them now.

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Speaker 1: They issued a burn notice on him in nineteen.

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Speaker 2: Eighty three, which is I don't even know what that is.

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Speaker 2: That means just TV he's dead to us.

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Speaker 1: It's basically stay away, okay, it's putting him on blast

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Speaker 1: to all the other intelligence agencies in the world.

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Speaker 2: Gotcha PERSONA grade.

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Speaker 1: I won't even deal with this guy. And so Alie

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Speaker 1: North is like, yeah, I'll deal with this guy.

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Speaker 2: All right. So with his help, Oliver North set up

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Speaker 2: a deal where and it's so simple to look at, like, Israel,

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Speaker 2: you give them your missiles and then we'll just replace

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Speaker 2: those missiles for you with our missiles.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: So we're not given the missiles you are.

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Speaker 1: And because no American explicitly said to Iran, hey, we're

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Speaker 1: doing this so that you guys will get these hostages released,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't in arms for hostages deal, and so Reagan's

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Speaker 1: vowed and never negotiate with terrorists remained intact.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Five hundred and eight tow tow missiles What

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Speaker 2: does that stand for?

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Speaker 1: Two blaunched optically tracked wireless guided missile, which is like

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Speaker 1: it's like the tube launched. There's a tube and it

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Speaker 1: can be mounted on the ground, mounted on a jeep.

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Speaker 1: It's super portable. But they are they'll blow some stuff up.

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Speaker 2: I think I've seen these you have. So five hundred

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Speaker 2: and eight of these made it from Israel to Iran,

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Speaker 2: and then in very short order, a couple of days later,

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Speaker 2: one of the hostages, Benjamin we Are, minister who was

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Speaker 2: held by Lebanes's Terrists for sixteen months, was released. So

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Speaker 2: it worked.

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Speaker 1: It did work, Azah. It was a big deal around

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Speaker 1: the White House too, but they said, let's try it again,

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Speaker 1: but this time it seems a little messy to get

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Speaker 1: Israel involved. Let's just do this ourselves. Alie, you think

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Speaker 1: you can handle this, and he said, sure, me and

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Speaker 1: Gerbonifor have this. So rather than Israel giving arms to Iran,

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Speaker 1: Richard Seacord got brought in, just like with Nicaragua. And

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Speaker 1: again this isn't like years after Nicaragua. Nicaragua's at full

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Speaker 1: bore in full swamp, but it's still going yet, and

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Speaker 1: Olie North is running both operations simultaneously. And so the

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Speaker 1: news setup was the Department of Defense would sell the

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Speaker 1: CIA missiles for thirty seven hundred bucks a pop. The

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Speaker 1: CIA would sell them to Richard Seacord at cost, and

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Speaker 1: then Seacord would sell them to Garbaniphar for ten grand apiece,

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Speaker 1: and then Gorbanifhar would go sell them to Iran for

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Speaker 1: whatever he charged Iran. Can you imagine, I can't. I

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Speaker 1: guarantee it was more than the ten grand. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: this happened multiple times over the course of a little

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Speaker 1: over a year. America secretly transferred two thousand missiles and

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Speaker 1: missile parts to Iran in eight shipments.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. For the release of hostages.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Ultimately there were three hostages that got released out

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Speaker 1: of seven that had been taken hostage total.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And didn't he say ultimately there were three more

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Speaker 2: hostages taken, so they netted out at zero at zero.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So but that was the whole Iran operation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but here's the deals. This price markup means that

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Speaker 2: that shell company and those Swiss bank accounts were making

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Speaker 2: a lot of money, and so much so that I

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Speaker 2: think one of them had three million dollars made an

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Speaker 2: interest alone. So at some point someone's like, hey, this

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Speaker 2: is a money making operation. Now, why don't we tie

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Speaker 2: a little bow on all this and use some of

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Speaker 2: that money to fund the contrast, Because you guys are

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Speaker 2: doing both of these things and you need money. Congress

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Speaker 2: won't give it to you. Forget the fundraising omelets. We'll

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Speaker 2: just use the money from these illegal arm sales to

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Speaker 2: fund the Contras.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's exactly what happened. So to put in

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Speaker 1: playing terms, America illegally and secretly sold missiles to Iran,

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Speaker 1: used the proceeds from those missile sales to secretly and

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Speaker 1: illegally fund the Contras to help them overthrow their government

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Speaker 1: down in Nicaragua. That's what the Reagan administration did.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: That's why it's called Iran Contra. That's where they came together.

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Speaker 1: There was a diversion of funds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the I think it was a by nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty six, Congress finally got back on board because of

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Speaker 2: this drum beat from Reagan over the years of how

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Speaker 2: much we need to really do this officially, And keep

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Speaker 2: in mind, Congress still didn't know any of this is

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Speaker 2: going on right secretly. And then Congress said, all right,

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Speaker 2: we'll give you a hundred million dollars to aid this cause.

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Speaker 1: And you're going to say, how take a dog.

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Speaker 2: You would think that was the end of all the

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Speaker 2: covert stuff.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't, though, No, No, it's still continued on. But

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Speaker 1: now it was legitimized and had even better funding. But

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Speaker 1: that was not the end of the whole thing. Like

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Speaker 1: everybody didn't just get to walk away and say that

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Speaker 1: was close, because the whole thing started to come apart. Actually,

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Speaker 1: and I say that we take an ad break and

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Speaker 1: come back and talk about it. Great after this.

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Speaker 3: Well, now we're on the road, driving in your truck.

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Speaker 3: Want to learn a thing or two from Josh Amuck?

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Speaker 1: Stuff you should know? Should all right? Okay, Chuck. So

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six Congress is back on board. I think

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Speaker 1: it's worth pointing out that that's exactly four years after

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Speaker 1: the Democrats took control of the House in nineteen eighty two.

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Speaker 1: So I wonder if the Republicans took control back in

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Speaker 1: eighty six, and that's why the funding got turned back

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Speaker 1: onto the Contress.

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Speaker 2: Me solve this?

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Speaker 1: I like to speculate instead, So this.

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Speaker 2: All might have Who knows if this ever would have

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Speaker 2: even been found out had it not been for the

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Speaker 2: sharpshooting of a young Sandinistan soldier named Jose Fernando Canales

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Speaker 2: Almann Nice in October fifth, nineteen eighty six. It was

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Speaker 2: a cargo plane, as he won twenty three called the

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Speaker 2: provider flying seventy Soviet Kalishnikovs, one hundred thousand rounds of AMMO,

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Speaker 2: rocket grenades and other supplies. And this is one of

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Speaker 2: those things where you said they would fly over and

386
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Speaker 2: kick him out the back of the plane. Sure, this

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Speaker 2: is one of those runs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. The problem with this particular run, though, is that

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Speaker 1: they did this at twenty five hundred feet in broad daylight.

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Speaker 2: They got a little lazy o tad bit or maybe cocky.

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Speaker 1: I don't even know if it's that. I think it

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Speaker 1: was more like this was just work. It was an

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Speaker 1: everyday job by this time. They've been doing it for years. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, and the operation was just humming along so

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Speaker 1: nicely that it was almost an autopilot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, they did this one supply drop on October fifth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six, in broad daylight.

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Speaker 2: And there were four crew aboard. William J. Cooper, Wallace

400
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Speaker 2: buzz Sawyer, Freddy Vilchis, and a guy named Eugene Hassenfuss

401
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Speaker 2: who and again this sliding doors thing. Hassenfuss is the

402
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Speaker 2: only guy who had a parachute. He borrowed it from

403
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Speaker 2: his brother, a skydiver, because you know, he thought it

404
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 2: might be smart to take a parachute, right no one

405
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Speaker 2: else had parachutes. Had he not had a parachute, this

406
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Speaker 2: may have turned out differently.

407
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Speaker 1: It may have. For sure he was the only one

408
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Speaker 1: that survived this plane crash because he was the only

409
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Speaker 1: one who borrowed the parachute from his brother and he

410
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Speaker 1: jumped out, landed, made it safely into the jungle. And

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Speaker 1: I think he actually survived and evaded the Sandinistas for

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Speaker 1: maybe a day or something like that before he was captured.

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Speaker 1: And when he was captured, they led him out of

414
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Speaker 1: the jungle like with a rope around his neck, just

415
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Speaker 1: about as big of a prisoner as you can imagine.

416
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Speaker 1: Super publicized. There are billboards of him being led around

417
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Speaker 1: by Santainistas and they started asking him questions and he

418
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Speaker 1: was like, what do you want to know?

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Speaker 2: He say, like a canary, He really did.

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Speaker 1: He said, this is my tenth supply mission. I presume

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Speaker 1: that the CIA is running this. I don't know, And

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Speaker 1: he would know this would be something that he would

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Speaker 1: he could legitimately guess at at least because he had

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Speaker 1: actually worked on CIA air drops over Vietnam or Cambodia

425
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Speaker 1: for Air America back in the Vietnam War.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but he wasn't like, like he sings like a

427
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Speaker 2: canary because he's not very high up on the totem pole.

428
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Speaker 2: Like his job was to get up there and shove

429
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Speaker 2: this stuff out of the back of the plane, right

430
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Speaker 2: for three grand a month.

431
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Speaker 1: Right, He wasn't even a CIA operator. He's just a

432
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Speaker 1: former Marine who had a background working with Air America

433
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Speaker 1: years before. But by this time, by the time he

434
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Speaker 1: joins on doing this for the Contras, he was like

435
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Speaker 1: working as a construction worker part time in Wisconsin right home.

436
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Speaker 1: So this is like pretty good money, I think. Yeah,

437
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 1: he was getting seven grand in today's dollars a month

438
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,400
Speaker 1: for basically kicking AK forty seven crates out the back

439
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,160
Speaker 1: of a plane over Nicaragua.

440
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he's not the kind of guy that's going

441
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 2: to take the fall right for anyone. So he's singing

442
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 2: like a canary.

443
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,440
Speaker 1: Even if he had kept his mouth shut, it wouldn't

444
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 1: have mattered what it sounds like.

445
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:55,239
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Because all the other guys, including Hassenfuss, had

446
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 2: their wallets on the plane, They had all their employee

447
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 2: ID cards and in fact, I don't even we mentioned

448
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 2: in episode one the company that was set up to

449
00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:08,920
Speaker 2: do these drops was set up called Southern Air Transport

450
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 2: out of I guess Miami. So they all had their

451
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,360
Speaker 2: Southern Air Transport IT cards, which was the CIA front.

452
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 1: Like everybody knew Southern Transport was a CIA front, so

453
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,479
Speaker 1: they might as well have had like CIA Junior badges

454
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 1: or something right, or.

455
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 2: Like Michael Keaton and out of Sight when he has

456
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 2: the big FBI T shirt.

457
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 1: I haven't seen that one?

458
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:31,240
Speaker 2: Oh, you haven't seen out of Sight? No? Is that

459
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 2: the one where he's George Clooney and Jennifer Lopez.

460
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 1: Is he a bad guy in it?

461
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 2: No, he's a good guy, but he walks in. He

462
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:42,119
Speaker 2: plays Ray Nicolette who played same character, and Jackie Brown

463
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 2: FBI guy. Okay, but it's funny because he walks in

464
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 2: with an FBI T shirt on, and Dennis Farina as

465
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 2: Jennifer Lopez's dad, and he's a former CUP and he goes, hey, Ray,

466
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 2: let me ask it. He got one that says undercover.

467
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: Dennis Farina man class ad.

468
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 2: I mean he got to see out of Sight. That's

469
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 2: a classic. All right, I'll check it out like one

470
00:23:58,880 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 2: of the better men.

471
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I know the movie. You're talking about avoid

472
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 1: it like the plague.

473
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 2: It's so good, Okay, you would love it, all right,

474
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 2: So Southern air Transport caa front. There's also a log

475
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 2: book that connected this flight and all the other flights.

476
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 2: And then Hassenfuss in his wallet had a business card

477
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 2: to Robert w Owen, this is a big one who

478
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 2: was working with Oliver North in Washington.

479
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 1: Right, which so that provided a direct line between Oliver

480
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 1: North and some guys who were kicking Kalashnikov's out of

481
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 1: the back of a plane over Nicaragua. So that was

482
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: a really big deal that when this guy got captured

483
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 1: and you know, told the Santonistas as much as he knew,

484
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: because the Sandinistas were like, attention, world, Yeah, listen to

485
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: what we just found out. The CIA has totally been

486
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: funding these Countra rebels who are trying to overthrow this

487
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 1: sovereign government, and we think you guys should know about it.

488
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was it wasn't like you could totally

489
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 2: discount that even though it was from the Sandinistans like

490
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 2: and the American media were like what I'm sure Congress

491
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,919
Speaker 2: was like wait a minute, right, this reeks of like

492
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 2: something that had been happening that we tried to shut down.

493
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, because remember, even if the CIA was brief in Congress,

494
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 1: it was either Bill Casey or Dewey Clarridge, and they

495
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: were doing a really obtuse job of this keeping Congress

496
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 1: at arms length. So anytime something like this came out,

497
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,439
Speaker 1: almost none of Congress knew the full extent of this,

498
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: and it was always in flagrant violation of whatever Congress

499
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 1: wanted or whatever Congress had agreed to.

500
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this wasn't like this was sort of the

501
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 2: straw that broke it all open, or that broke the

502
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: camel's back.

503
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: Broke the camel's back wide open. Oh god, that's correct,

504
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 1: or camel.

505
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 2: Things have been unraveling for a bit. There was a

506
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: party in nineteen eighty five in Virginia thrown thrown by

507
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 2: Soldier of Fortune magazine. Can you imagine? No, what's that party?

508
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 1: Like? I don't want to know, I can't imagine. I

509
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: used to read Soldier of Fortune when I was in

510
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: my ninja training as like a ten year old boy,

511
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 1: and even then I was like this, this magazine makes

512
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: my stomach hurt.

513
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 2: And it's in nineteen eighty five, Like, can you imagine

514
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 2: the amount of like blow being secretly done in the

515
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 2: bathroom at that party.

516
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 1: Sure, but also they were making snuff movies in the

517
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: living room, and there's no telling what was going on.

518
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 1: As a soldier of Fortune, we can tell you at

519
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 1: the very least, there was a lot of boasting going

520
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: on openly about this contra operation. And again this is

521
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,600
Speaker 1: the time when people don't know about this stuff.

522
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know what happens is like you get

523
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 2: enough people in enough years, and people start talking, people

524
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: start bragging. Yeah, and all of a sudden, you have

525
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 2: a couple of gen and Tonics at a Soldier of

526
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 2: Fortune party. Sure, and you're like, hey, guess what, and

527
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 2: that that's what happened.

528
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: Somebody goes what yeah, there you go here it comes.

529
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they drop the you know, they drop the

530
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 2: bomb that what's been going on. A concerned citizen hears this.

531
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 2: I guess he must have been mistakenly invited the soldier.

532
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 1: I don't know how that guy got invited, or they

533
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: just happened to talk to the wrong guy or whatever,

534
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: but probably that he was like, I am really fearful

535
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: of my life for saying something about this, but I

536
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 1: feel like somebody should know. So he went to a lawyer,

537
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: a human rights lawyer named David Shean, and he said,

538
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: you go tell everybody you put your life on the line.

539
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 2: And he did. He submitted an affidavit to federal court,

540
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 2: started doing interviews, talking to journalists, drumming up support. White

541
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 2: House was like, we don't know what you're talking about.

542
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 2: You're a crazy man, Like this is all made up.

543
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 2: And finally it took a Lebanese newspaper, Al Shira, that

544
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 2: reported on this deal, this arms for hostage deal, like

545
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 2: in a legitimate newspaper.

546
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: Right, so now both stories have been blown open. You've

547
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 1: got Eugene Hassenfu was captured and the contra operation is

548
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: blown open, and now Al Shira is reporting on the

549
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: Iran arms for hostage deal. And really, crazily enough, these

550
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 1: two separate arms of this one scandal came out within

551
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: a month of each other, which is it's bizarre, but

552
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: that's what happened. And now it was like there's it's

553
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: on the table. The America media knows about it, Congress

554
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: knows about it. Heads are about to roll.

555
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 2: All right, we'll take our final break and we'll come

556
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 2: back and talk about the aftermath of Iran condra.

557
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 3: Well, now we're on the road, driving in your truck.

558
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 3: I want to learn a thing or two from Josh.

559
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 2: Chuck.

560
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 3: It's stuff you should know, all right.

561
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: All right, Chuck, you promised that after your math.

562
00:28:53,640 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 2: Let's hear it, all right, So everything is exposed. Oliver

563
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: North was no longer in business doing his thing.

564
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: No, he shut down shop real quick, he.

565
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 2: Did, but not before. Very famously, he and his very

566
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 2: eighties haired secretary, Fawn Hall. I forgot. I looked at

567
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 2: was like, Fawn Hall. I looked her up, and as

568
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 2: soon as I saw it, I was like, right, yeah,

569
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 2: Fawn Hall, sure you can forget that hair. She could

570
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 2: barely walk through a door.

571
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: No, it was ginormous, for sure.

572
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 2: It's so great. I would be fearful around a shreddervour her,

573
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 2: but she was not fearful at all. She and Oliver

574
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 2: North spent a day they could. They call it a

575
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 2: shredding party. I mean, we will never know the full

576
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 2: truth behind this because of all the evidence that they shredded.

577
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: Yep, as far as anyone knows, Oliver North decided on

578
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: his own to shred every document he had on it.

579
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 1: That's right, and yeah, that's that's it. It's it's now

580
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: it's the official narrative that has been written into the

581
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: history book, which you can just guarantee is not anywhere

582
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: near the full story, right.

583
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 2: So it all comes out. The Reagan administration start looking

584
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 2: around and they're like, well, who who's going to be

585
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 2: the patsy for this one? And Oliver North could not

586
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 2: escape it, but they're like, he's small potatoes, he'll go down.

587
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: Well, I think he was even willing to take the fall,

588
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: like he knew he was going to be the fall

589
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: guy and was like, okay, that's part of the job.

590
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 2: Right, But they knew that it had to the American public,

591
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 2: and certainly Congress wasn't going to be satisfied with just

592
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 2: Oliver North, right, So who did they land on?

593
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: So the official line became this Poindexter and I guess

594
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:44,479
Speaker 1: McFarlane would have started it. Became fully aware of just

595
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: how badly Reagan wanted to help the Contras and said

596
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to do something about this, and tapped Allie

597
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: North and said we need to help the Contras out.

598
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: Go help him out, figure it out. And North went

599
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: off and basically went rogue on his own and set

600
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: up this whole operation, created this entire network with Seacord

601
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: decided to do the Iranian arms deal all this stuff

602
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: basically on his.

603
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: Own, right, like Reagan and Bush knew nothing about.

604
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: It, nothing about it, and that the buck stopped at Poindexter.

605
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: Ultimately it didn't go any further. William Casey being CIA,

606
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,479
Speaker 1: he was basically out of the loop. That was the

607
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: official story they came out with, right, and America when

608
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: you're kidding, right, this is a joke.

609
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I remember these hearings even as a

610
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: little kid, like watching these and then watching the news

611
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 2: coverage of it, and like we mentioned all over North

612
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 2: strolling in there with his dress uniform and you know,

613
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 2: by all accounts being a pretty stand up guy, like

614
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 2: he didn't rat anyone out.

615
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 1: He didn't. But he also he was like, there's there's

616
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: no way the president didn't know about this. He said,

617
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: I don't have any direct evidence that the president did

618
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: know about it, but it's my understanding that the president

619
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: was fully aware of what was going on.

620
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, what was the deal with this missile supply shipment? Though,

621
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 2: That's the one thing didn't quite get.

622
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: So there was North got rid of all the documents

623
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: that he could, right, well, North didn't have any control

624
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: over CIA documents, and at that first missile resupply where

625
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: they were resupplying Israel, he had a CIA. He basically said, Hey, CIA,

626
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: do you know anybody I can use to ship these things.

627
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: I've got an emergency here. I need to get these

628
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 1: to Israel fast. And the CIA, being the CIA is

629
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: still a bureaucracy, they had to document this event. So

630
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: there was a document out there now and right that

631
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: he couldn't get his hands on, that he couldn't shred.

632
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: And so this led to Reagan taking responsibility for saying, okay,

633
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: I was aware of this Iran missile deal by backdating

634
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: an order to William Casey saying I order you not

635
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: to tell Congress about this, even though you're supposed to.

636
00:32:54,800 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 1: So Reagan basically said, on paper, I know about this Iran,

637
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: this one missile transfer to Iran. Had no idea about

638
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: the contrasts, right, okay. And at first they started off

639
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: denying everything.

640
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, like after this, I'll share a story that

641
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 2: we talked about. He went on television, Reagan did and

642
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 2: denied everything.

643
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: He said, all this is just total bs, yeah exactly.

644
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: Now let's stop talking about it.

645
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 2: Everybody ten days after that, Reagan had another press conference

646
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: where he talked about the Iran operation and he acknowledged it,

647
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 2: but said, what we're really doing here is just trying

648
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 2: to sort of send a signal to Iran that where

649
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 2: we want friendlier relations. Right, there were not arms for

650
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 2: hostage exactly.

651
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: And then so that was ten days after the first denial, right,

652
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 1: and then four months after that, because the reporting would

653
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: not stop, he basically said, Okay, yeah, whatever it started

654
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: out as, I admit that it devolved into an arms

655
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 1: for hostage deal. Which even that, even that admission, which

656
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: is the closest he ever came to admitting, you know,

657
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: responsibility for it. Yeah, even that's his total b us

658
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: and fantasy. It was from the outset in arms for

659
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: hostages deal. Right, The whole thing was set up to

660
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: get hostages released, and that was it. So there was

661
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: there was no other way to put it. Yeah, but

662
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:13,239
Speaker 1: that's he denied that to his dying day.

663
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 2: As far as fallout, Poindexter resign Oliver North was fired,

664
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 2: Casey died in a hospital not too long after this

665
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 2: whole thing like was exposed, I mean like weeks. Yeah,

666
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 2: so the press was all over the president. He appointed

667
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 2: the Tower Commission. Yeah, the look into this.

668
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: The president appointed a commission to investigate, Yeah, the president's

669
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: own administration's wrongdoing.

670
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,839
Speaker 2: That's right. And it was determined that Reagan's disengagement from

671
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 2: the management of his White House created condition conditions such

672
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 2: that it was possible that he did not know about this.

673
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: Which is the absolute best official finding he could have

674
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 1: hoped for, because it basically says rang it didn't. He

675
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 1: had a rogue guy working for him, a true believer,

676
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,279
Speaker 1: a patriot. But Reagan didn't know about this, and yeah,

677
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 1: he should have. He should have had a closer watch

678
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: on his executive branch, but he didn't. What are you

679
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: going to do? Let's get mister t in here for

680
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: a photo op with Nancy.

681
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 2: There was a criminal investigation, and what they were really

682
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: honing in on was the eighteen million dollars in profits

683
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 2: that were made and what happened to that money where

684
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:30,280
Speaker 2: it went. Fourteen people were charged. Oliver North was tried

685
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 2: and found guilty on three counts. One of the counts

686
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 2: was for getting a sixteen thousand dollars security system installed

687
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 2: in his home courtesy of Seacord. With that money.

688
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: There was a rumor that there was a bounty on

689
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: his head from terrorists, and she hooked him up. Right Now,

690
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 1: that was a big problem for North, because North's whole

691
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: bag was I was following orders that I assume we're

692
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: coming from the president ultimately, and I was doing it

693
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 1: out of my patriotic duty and a sense of, you know,

694
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: as a true believer that we need to get rid

695
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: of communism. And the American public loved it. They were like, great,

696
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 1: make this man a saint. Congress started to love it too,

697
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: and he got off. But that was a real problem

698
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: because it's saying, well, you took this gift from funds

699
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 1: from this illicit arms sales.

700
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 2: Right, But it was a gift of a security system

701
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,279
Speaker 2: to help protect his family, So it's not like, you know,

702
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 2: it was a gift of ten pounds a blow.

703
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:35,280
Speaker 1: And Nicaraguans sex worker from the Santa and Eastern government exactly.

704
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: Seacord was convicted of one count of lying to Congress

705
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 2: and the investigators. He basically denied that North received any

706
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 2: funds from any of this. So it's still kind of

707
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 2: hinged on that security system, I guess.

708
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,240
Speaker 1: And so everybody went to jail forever after that point.

709
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 2: Right, No, that's not true at all. Hakeem got two

710
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 2: years probation, a five thousand dollars fine.

711
00:36:58,480 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: Secord got two years probation.

712
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 2: Is that what he got? Two years probation.

713
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: So the two guys who were actually running the company

714
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: that ran this whole thing each got two years probation.

715
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: North's conviction was overturned on a technicality, and President Bush,

716
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 2: the senior Bush, on Christmas Eve, this was Christmas Eve

717
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 2: as he was leaving office, right, yep, he issued six

718
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 2: pardons basically let everyone off the hook, including Casper Weinberger

719
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,359
Speaker 2: who hadn't even gone to trial yet.

720
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: No, and neither had Duyne Clarridge. Dewey Clarridge was going

721
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: to stay on trial too. Both of them received preemptive pardons.

722
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 1: And a lot of people are like, that was about

723
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: the shadiest set of pardons anyone's ever issued, because there's

724
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: a lot of people out there who say Bush really

725
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: walked away from this scot free, But there is no

726
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 1: way he wasn't even more involved in this than Reagan was.

727
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean George Bush withheld subpoena his subpoena diary

728
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 2: entries that basically indicated that he had full knowledge of

729
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 2: this the entire time. Eventually, in nineteen ninety two, Independent

730
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 2: Counselor Lawrence Walsh asked for these again, and Bush like said,

731
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 2: I asked you for these diary entries. And Bush was like,

732
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 2: I didn't you did. I didn't fully understand. It was inadvertent,

733
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 2: like you asked me for a lot of stuff. I

734
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 2: didn't know you asked me for the diary entries. And

735
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,440
Speaker 2: Walsh was really upset and he said, the Iran contra

736
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 2: cover up has now been completed. And George Bush as

737
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 2: a president who has such a contempt for honesty and

738
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:32,959
Speaker 2: arrogant disregard for the rule of law.

739
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean the forestalling that the Reagan White

740
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 1: House and then later on the Bush White House did

741
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: in allowing these investigations to go forward and trying to

742
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: keep Congress at arm's length after everything came out. It

743
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,040
Speaker 1: worked because there were articles of impeachment introduced in the

744
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,919
Speaker 1: House against Ronald Reagan, and they managed to stave them

745
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: off to where it was like, while he's leaving office, anyway,

746
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,399
Speaker 1: forget about it. This investigation took years and years and years,

747
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 1: and then finally when Bush pardoned everybody that was it,

748
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 1: there was nothing else to do. Everybody who was involved

749
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 1: was implication was off Scott free. And then the fact

750
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 1: that Oliver North had shredded all those documents, they were

751
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 1: all lost to history, like the actual truth is lost

752
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: to history.

753
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. Reagan, his reputation took a hit, a temporary hit

754
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,720
Speaker 2: for a while there. He went from sixty three percent

755
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 2: in the span of a couple of months to forty

756
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 2: three to forty seven percent depending on which poe you

757
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,480
Speaker 2: looked at on his approval rating. And he would get

758
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 2: it back though, despite in the nineteen ninety deposition, the

759
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 2: very very famous deposition where Ronald Reagan said I don't

760
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 2: remember or I don't recall eighty eight times. That was

761
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 2: very big deal. It was all over the news. Yeah,

762
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 2: it was almost as famous, or just as famous as

763
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 2: Bill Clinton's very famous. It depends what your definition of

764
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 2: is is right exactly, But Reagan bounded.

765
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: He did, man to the most popular presidency since FDR. Right.

766
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 2: Yeah. Upon his exit, his approval rating had bounced all

767
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,800
Speaker 2: the way back up to the early sixties.

768
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:13,919
Speaker 1: Mister t famously carried him out of the White House

769
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 1: on his shoulders on his last day in office. Oh man,

770
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,839
Speaker 1: so that's a wrong Contra. Man, what a story. Heck

771
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: of a story. Where's this movie? I don't know. Hopefully

772
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: we'll get some rights to it after this episode.

773
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 2: I want to play Fawn Hall.

774
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: Welso that's great.

775
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 2: You get Jerry to play Fawn Hall.

776
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: That'd be great. Jerry Well. In the meantime, while we

777
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: find a suitable wig for Jerry, you can find out

778
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: more about Iran Contra by going and reading contemporary articles

779
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 1: on it. I'm telling you it's really awesome. And since

780
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,800
Speaker 1: I said that it's time for listener mail, I'm.

781
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 2: Gonna call this follow up on the moonlanding thing. Hey, guys,

782
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 2: in my opinion, the Apollo missions and moonlandings are the

783
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 2: most significant events in the history of life on Earth.

784
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 2: On the question why the Command Module and Lunar Lander

785
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 2: were launched separated, I think the reason was to allow

786
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 2: the Command Module to be ejected in case of an emergency.

787
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 2: The very top of the Apollo stack was the launch

788
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 2: escape system, like an ejector seat on steroids. I imagine

789
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 2: they had to keep things as light and nimble as

790
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,879
Speaker 2: possible for the l S to be effective. I don't

791
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 2: think you mentioned something that's really significant. The Apollo eight

792
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: mission was the very first time humans went to the Moon.

793
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 2: On top of being the first time we broke free

794
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 2: of Earth's gravity. Like eleven, the stakes were incredibly high.

795
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 2: They had to first insert the correct trajectory to make

796
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 2: it to the Moon, then do a burn to enter

797
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 2: the orbit around the Moon, then perform another burn to

798
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 2: break free of the Moon's gravity and head back toward Earth.

799
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 2: If any piece was not in place, those astronauts would

800
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: have spent the rest of their lives either orbiting the

801
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 2: Sun or orbiting the Moon. Apollo eight also gave us

802
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 2: the Earth Rise photo.

803
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I've been hearing a lot about Apollo

804
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 1: eight lately too, So this person is hats off to you.

805
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 2: Level was on both Apollo eight and Apollo thirteen. You

806
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 2: travel to the Moon twice but never had the opportunity

807
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 2: to land.

808
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:07,240
Speaker 1: That is so sad.

809
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 2: Signed a space geek Noah Alloi.

810
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 1: Nice work, Noah Alloi Alloi LOOI great name too. Thanks

811
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: a lot for getting in touch with us. We love

812
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,760
Speaker 1: space geeks. We love to put you guys in headlocks

813
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: and rub your heads with our knuckles until you go stop.

814
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 2: It's called a noggie right here on Earth.

815
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,760
Speaker 1: That's right. If you want a noggy from me and Chuck,

816
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 1: send us a space geeky or any kind of geeky thing.

817
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: We love that kind of stuff. If you can go

818
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,359
Speaker 1: on to stuff youshould know dot com and follow our

819
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,399
Speaker 1: social links and you can send us a good old

820
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: fashioned email, wrap it up, spank it on the bottom,

821
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: and send it off to stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.

822
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

823
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 3: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

824
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

825
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 1: E