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Speaker 1: Hello, Happy Saturday, everybody. What were the Bone Wars? Why

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Speaker 1: am I asking you? Because I'm the one who knows.

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Speaker 1: This episode was from August of twenty nineteen, and it

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Speaker 1: was all about the Bone Wars, something I knew nothing

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Speaker 1: about until we did this episode. One of the top

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Speaker 1: three reasons why I love this job. I get just

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Speaker 1: a little bit smarter every week, and I hope you

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Speaker 1: do too.

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Speaker 2: Please enjoy.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and

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Speaker 3: there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there

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Speaker 3: and ra That was a limp limp. Laugh, Chuck, I've

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Speaker 3: gotten way better laughs out of either.

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Speaker 2: Are you a dinosaur A little bit?

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Speaker 3: I got a little dinosaur, Me got a little in

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Speaker 3: the end, tall in me earned from twenty three in me. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: But despite my dinosaur heritage, I was never a big

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Speaker 3: time into dinosaurs as a kid. Were you?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: Not?

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Speaker 3: Like It's astounding, Chuck, how similar we were as children.

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Speaker 1: I know the only princes I didn't smoke. When I

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Speaker 1: was seven years.

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Speaker 3: Old fourteen, I was the ripe old Asian four again.

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Speaker 3: I started smoking so It wasn't like I don't know

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Speaker 3: if it was the same with you. It's not like

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Speaker 3: I had anything against dinosaurs or kids who liked dinosaurs.

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Speaker 3: I thought they were kind of cool. And I had

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Speaker 3: some like like figurines here or there, But it wasn't

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Speaker 3: anything like I was nerdy about in any way, shape

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Speaker 3: or form.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean I think there was there's a

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Speaker 1: certain movie that really really got kids into dinosaurs, The

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Speaker 1: Lost World No Ferrispeeler's Day Off right, and that movie

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Speaker 1: came out, you know when I was older.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, same here I was.

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Speaker 1: I even remember what year that was. I feel like

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Speaker 1: I was in college, though.

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Speaker 3: I want to say it was like ninety two to

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Speaker 3: ninety four, one of those years. That's what I would guess.

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Speaker 1: But kids these days are and it's not just my kid,

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Speaker 1: but I see lots of kids in her age group

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Speaker 1: that are obsessed with dinosaurs.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that's cool, Like, what a cool

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Speaker 3: thing to be obsessed with it? Kid teaches you so

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Speaker 3: much stuff you know about the deep past, about evolution,

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Speaker 3: about you know, walking lizard bird creatures. You know, there's

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Speaker 3: a lot, there's a lot to learn from, like being

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Speaker 3: interested in dinosaurs, that's a very cool thing to be interested.

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Speaker 2: In about death and extinction.

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Speaker 3: Sure, rotting, fossilization.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all the good stuff, right.

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Speaker 3: But the whole interest, including the interest that was around

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Speaker 3: when we were kids, that just kind of passed us by.

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Speaker 3: But definitely, you know, the interest in dinosaurs that gave

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Speaker 3: rise to the idea of Michael Crichton even writing Jurassic

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Speaker 3: Park and then Steve Spielberg even making it into a movie.

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Speaker 3: That interest in dinosaurs in America you can actually trace

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Speaker 3: back to almost a specific winter in a specific place

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Speaker 3: in the nineteenth century, and the winter of eighteen seventy

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Speaker 3: seven in particular, and it was the result of a vicious,

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Speaker 3: mean spirited, petty rivalry between two paleontologists that really kind

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Speaker 3: of sparked America's interest in dinosaurs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it feels very Tesla. Who's the other guy?

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Speaker 3: Oh, what was his name? Marconi maybe? Or Ferris Bueller.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it really reminded me of the Tesla Ferris

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Speaker 1: Bueller rivalry.

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Speaker 3: Ferris won that one square and the.

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Speaker 1: Current Wars, which, by the way, that movie's coming out.

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Speaker 1: Have you seen the trailer about.

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Speaker 3: The no who plays who?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: I can't remember now, but I saw it the other

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Speaker 1: day and it looks it looks pretty good.

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Speaker 3: Nicholas Cage plays both roles. O, God, how great.

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Speaker 2: Would that be?

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Speaker 3: It would be pretty great ac DC right.

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Speaker 1: Just like that's two hours right there, right.

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Speaker 3: There's actually going to be a movie, or there was

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Speaker 3: going to be a movie about what we're about to

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Speaker 3: talk about today. Did you know that now?

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Speaker 2: I kind of wondered though.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was scheduled for production. Steve Carell was going

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Speaker 3: to play Cope. Oh and James Gandolfini was going to

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Speaker 3: play Marsh and James Gandalfini died unexpectedly and the production

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Speaker 3: just got kiboshed.

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Speaker 1: And they also found out that the title The Bone

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Speaker 1: Wars had already been taken by a adult pornography. Yep,

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Speaker 1: we're so on the same page.

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Speaker 2: We totally saw children.

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Speaker 3: No interest in Jurassic Park or any dinosaurs, but we

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Speaker 3: think the names of porno films is hilarious. That's our

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Speaker 3: big interest.

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Speaker 2: So I thought it was funny.

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Speaker 1: You know, we commissioned this piece for the Grabster and

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Speaker 1: he's a big dinosaur guy, and he was somewhat shamed.

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Speaker 1: He was like, I just and he said it two

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Speaker 1: or three times, like, I can't believe I didn't know

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Speaker 1: about these guys.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we're like, it's okay, Greb, sir, it's all right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But so I feel like he learned something along the

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Speaker 1: way and he starts out, and I think it's a

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Speaker 1: good thing for us to talk a little bit about

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Speaker 1: just before these dudes, how paleontology came about and that

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Speaker 1: had you know, I think since people just started stumbling

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Speaker 1: upon bones, even by accident, before it was even a discipline,

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Speaker 1: people were like, oh man, look at that thing.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to pick that up and take it.

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Speaker 4: With me, right.

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Speaker 3: I think they used to get classified also as mythological

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Speaker 3: creatures or dead gods or something like that. But the

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Speaker 3: first documented paleontological expedition in North America was carried out

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Speaker 3: by none other than Lewis and Clark. Yeah, did you

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Speaker 3: know that before? Did we mention that in the episode?

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Speaker 3: Do you think?

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but I did know at some point

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Speaker 1: from somewhere. Maybe it was the the ken Burns piece,

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Speaker 1: but that, you know, one of the things they did.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they were logging everything, including bone deposits.

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Speaker 3: But they spent like a week around Salt Lick flats

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Speaker 3: or salt lick gully or salt lick something where there

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Speaker 3: was a big old salt like that used to attract

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Speaker 3: dinosaurs and plesisteine mammals from two different periods. Everybody putre

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Speaker 3: emails away and the bones that would collect there were

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Speaker 3: really significant, so they spent a week like excavating there.

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Speaker 3: But that was the first one. But that was even

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Speaker 3: before the world the word paleontology was coined.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that was in eighteen twenty two in the French

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Speaker 1: journal de Physique. And there were a couple of people

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Speaker 1: that preceded, and in fact, one of whom went on

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Speaker 1: to be a sort of a mentor to Cope. But

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Speaker 1: a goy named Edward Hitchcock and another guy named Joseph

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Speaker 1: is it Lighty or Leady?

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Speaker 3: I think Lighty is what I've seen the most.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, laid Y, and he's the one that went on

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Speaker 1: to work with Cope later on. But just put a

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Speaker 1: pin in this. But in eighteen fifty eight a pretty

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Speaker 1: important find, basically the only big dinosaur find on the

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Speaker 1: East Coast, where the fossil ee bones of a herbivore

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Speaker 1: name Hadrosaurus Folky in New Jersey, and it was a

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Speaker 1: big deal because it was on the East Coast and

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Speaker 1: this is where this stuff was going on at time,

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Speaker 1: and you get a lot of footprints on the East Coast,

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Speaker 1: but not a lot of finds like this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was an enormous find and Lighty was called

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Speaker 3: in to help excavate it and put it together because

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Speaker 3: he was America's first vertebrate paleontologist. He was the first

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Speaker 3: guy and was really prolific and really good at what

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Speaker 3: he did, and like you said, would eventually become a

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Speaker 3: mentor to one of the guys we should probably introduce now,

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Speaker 3: because Lighty was working in I think first real burst

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Speaker 3: of energy came in the eighteen fifties, the early eighteen fifties,

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Speaker 3: and within about fifteen maybe twenty years, there were a

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Speaker 3: pair of guys who would come along and just completely

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Speaker 3: change the field of paleontology. It started out very normally,

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Speaker 3: just another scientific field, very exciting, lots of discoveries to

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Speaker 3: be made. I mean that's the point of all this, right,

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Speaker 3: is that, like if you have a brand new scientific field,

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Speaker 3: everything you come across is worth writing about describing. You

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Speaker 3: get to name everything. So it was a really exciting,

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Speaker 3: like dynamic time for the field of paleontology. But a

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Speaker 3: field of science is the character of it is based

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Speaker 3: on its earliest practitioners. And Lighty was a very steady,

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Speaker 3: normal scientist who was very reliable. So he kind of

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Speaker 3: set paleontology up like that. But then along came a

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Speaker 3: couple of guys who would form this rivalry and they

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Speaker 3: would change all of that. I don't think necessarily to

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Speaker 3: this day, but there was a lot of sniping that

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Speaker 3: used to go on in the field of paleontology. That

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Speaker 3: was because of the tone that these guys set.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and both of them would end up basically bankrupt

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Speaker 1: at the end of each of their lives because of

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Speaker 1: all their efforts to outdo and undermine one another's work.

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about two dudes. One is Marsh and

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Speaker 1: one is Cope.

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Speaker 2: Oth Neil. I've never heard that name before.

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Speaker 3: I think his parents made it.

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Speaker 1: Up, maybe O t h n I e Othniel. Charles

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Speaker 1: Marsh born in October eighteen thirty one in New York

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Speaker 1: and he was They didn't have a lot of money

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Speaker 1: in his family. They were farmers. He would have been

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Speaker 1: a farmer, but he had and this kind of really

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Speaker 1: changed his life. He had a very rich uncle named

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Speaker 1: George Peabody, who would go on to really kind of

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Speaker 1: fund his education in early part of his career later on.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he just plucked him out of the farm field

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Speaker 3: basically and said, and I have no idea why he

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Speaker 3: did this, but he said, you, I like the look

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Speaker 3: of you and your brain, nephew, and you're going.

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Speaker 1: To go for smart would be My guess was that it?

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well, I don't know how he demonstrated it, I

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Speaker 3: guess is what I'm trying to say, Like, how did

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Speaker 3: his uncle say, yes, you're the one.

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Speaker 1: Oh, you know, smarts are always evident.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well, he plucked him out, sent him to boring school,

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Speaker 3: then sent him to Yale, and eventually sent him off

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Speaker 3: to grad school in Germany. So, Marsh, we're just going

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Speaker 3: to call him Marsh because his name is just too

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Speaker 3: ugly and horrible to say out loud. Yeah, he was

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Speaker 3: basically set. He was fine. He had a benefactor in

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Speaker 3: his extraordinarily wealthy philanthropist uncle.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So Cope, on the other hand, similarly had money, but

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Speaker 1: his was like in his family, he wasn't like poor

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Speaker 1: with a rich uncle. He had a wealthy family, very

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Speaker 1: prominent family in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He was born in July

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Speaker 1: eighteen forty, and he went to you know, all the

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Speaker 1: I was gonna say trappings, but I guess all the

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Speaker 1: benefits of being born into money. He went to very nice,

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Speaker 1: expensive boarding school, and that wasn't so much up his alley.

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Speaker 1: So he dropped out when he was sixteen. And because

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Speaker 1: he had a rich, rich dad, it allowed him a

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Speaker 1: lot of opportunities that other people wouldn't have, including, you know,

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Speaker 1: going to college later on, even though he never graduated

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Speaker 1: high school.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well there, so it was definitely in part because

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Speaker 3: of his dad. But also this was a time in

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Speaker 3: like say the eighteen fifties lax. It was lax, but

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Speaker 3: also like even if you wanted to go on and

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Speaker 3: become like a get a PhD, American universities weren't you know,

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Speaker 3: they didn't offer many PhD programs in sciences, right, So

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Speaker 3: there was a there was a whole something called gentleman

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Speaker 3: naturalists who were amateur, self taught scientists who just just

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Speaker 3: did the work. They knew what they were doing, they

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Speaker 3: figured it out as they went along, and they actually

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Speaker 3: developed some of these fields. And so he kind of

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Speaker 3: subscribed to that school where that old school of gentlemen

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Speaker 3: naturalists where there was you could you could go figure

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Speaker 3: it out yourself without needing to go through the university.

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Speaker 3: But he did that just on the cusp like our parents'

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Speaker 3: generation was just on the cusp of the last group

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Speaker 3: who could get away without knowing how to use email.

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Speaker 3: He was like part of that last generation that could

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Speaker 3: become a scientist without having to go through formal training

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Speaker 3: at a university.

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Speaker 1: Right, Like if you have a tweet suit with a

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Speaker 1: stiff color and a pencil and a pad, you can

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Speaker 1: end lots of time on your hands.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's that's I mean, to Cope's credit, I

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Speaker 3: think that that really kind of demonstrates like he's like, no,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to go learn from experience. He did knocking it,

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Speaker 3: but he did get entree into places like the University

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Speaker 3: of Pennsylvania or the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia

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Speaker 3: because of his family's context. But I get the impression

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Speaker 3: that he worked his way into those places. Once he

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Speaker 3: got in, he he didn't just loaf. He learned what

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Speaker 3: he needed to learn.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, because if there's one thing we're going

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Speaker 1: to learn about Cope here over the next thirty minutes

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Speaker 1: or so.

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Speaker 2: Is he worked hard?

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Speaker 3: Yes, he's my pick of the bone wars. He's who

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Speaker 3: I put my money behind.

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Speaker 2: Is he your guy?

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Speaker 3: Yep?

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Speaker 2: Interesting?

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Speaker 3: Did we ever say his name Edward Drinker Cope, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's a weird middle name.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 1: He was a drinker, literally, he really was.

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Speaker 4: He was.

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Speaker 3: Also he was also a Quaker and a pacifist too.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: So at college at University of Pennsylvania, that's where he

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Speaker 1: met Joseph Leidy. He was one of his professors, so

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Speaker 1: that just, you know, kind of kickstarted their relationship. During

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Speaker 1: the Civil War, he went to Europe the American Civil

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Speaker 1: War because he didn't want to be you know, want

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Speaker 1: to go to war.

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Speaker 2: He didn't want to go fight. He wanted to go

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Speaker 2: dig up bones.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and he was a Quaker pacifist too.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 1: So he went to Germany and in eighteen sixty three

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Speaker 1: he met marsh and they really liked each other at first.

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Speaker 1: They had a lot in common, obviously, And I get

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Speaker 1: the feeling that in Germany in eighteen sixty three there

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Speaker 1: were probably not a ton of Americans who were super

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Speaker 1: interested in dinosaur hunting. And so they locked up became

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Speaker 1: really good pals. They came back to the US after

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Speaker 1: the Civil War and friends, and we're both like, all right,

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Speaker 1: we're going to go do our thing independently, but we're

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Speaker 1: going to keep in touch. We're going to swap info

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Speaker 1: early on here. And it was all very friendly at first.

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Speaker 3: Right, And I think you can make a pretty good

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Speaker 3: case that they probably cut their own palms and clasped

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Speaker 3: hands and became blood brother brothers during the German meeting. Okay, probably,

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Speaker 3: So that's what we're going with, because they really did

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Speaker 3: like each other and things were going along just fine.

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Speaker 3: Two kindred spirits with a common intro paleontology, and they

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Speaker 3: may have continued on that way, although I sincerely doubt

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Speaker 3: that that's the case, which means I just undermined my

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Speaker 3: own statement. But after the Civil War they both went

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Speaker 3: back to the United States to start careers, their own careers,

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Speaker 3: and marsh or Cope, I'm sorry. He had connected with

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Speaker 3: Joseph Lighty, who he had met through the University of

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Speaker 3: Pennsylvania and the Academy of Natural Sciences. They worked together there,

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Speaker 3: and so he went off with Lighty to study bones

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Speaker 3: that were found at hadden Field in New Jersey, where

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Speaker 3: Lighty found that first skeleton, right, and so being friends

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Speaker 3: with Marsh, he naturally, Cope naturally extended an invitation, Hey,

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Speaker 3: come visit me in the field. You got to see

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Speaker 3: this place. It's amazing. There's fossils everywhere. You're gonna love it.

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Speaker 3: And so Marsh came out for a visit. And this

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Speaker 3: was mark one in the turning point of their relationship.

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Speaker 3: There were two distinct marks, each of them point to

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Speaker 3: one is the end of their friendship. This was the

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Speaker 3: end of their friendship starting with Cope.

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Speaker 1: That's right. So both of these guys had privilege, like

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Speaker 1: we've been talking about. For Marsh's part, his uncle, his

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Speaker 1: rich uncle, donated one hundred and fifty grand to Yale

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Speaker 1: basically to sort of get March a job. They created

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Speaker 1: the Peabody Museum of Natural History, and then they were like, well, hey,

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Speaker 1: we need a professor to chair this new department, and

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Speaker 1: so why not your nephew, And they said, Bully, that's

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Speaker 1: a great idea. So it basically costs one hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty grand to get Marsh this job is the chair

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Speaker 1: of Department of Paleontology at this new Peabody Museum at

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Speaker 1: Yale University.

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Speaker 3: Right, And so they said, yes, we want to make

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Speaker 3: you the first professor of paleontology in America. And Marsh said, yes,

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Speaker 3: that's a great idea. I like where you're going Yale.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to spend a lot of time here, I

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Speaker 3: can tell. So that's that's Marsh setting off on his

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Speaker 3: little trajectory, basically ensconcing himself in Yale.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: Cope, remember he was basically a high school dropout and

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Speaker 3: he had to kind of make his own way. He

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Speaker 3: had trouble at first finding a position until he struck

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Speaker 3: upon a place called Haverford College and he got a

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Speaker 3: position as a professor of zoology there, and they said, well,

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Speaker 3: you're a high school dropout, so we'll just give you

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Speaker 3: an honorary Masters of Arts degree, being now you're a professor.

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Speaker 2: Was working out for both of these guys.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, although Cope didn't really like have her for that much.

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Speaker 3: He ends up quitting and it actually kind of it

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Speaker 3: kind of describes his personality a little bit, that that

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Speaker 3: incident that he would get a good job having kind

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Speaker 3: of been carried into that position, and then says, this

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Speaker 3: job is bs some quitting that he was apparently prone

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Speaker 3: to kind of a quick temper here or there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's ed does make the point.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of hard to piece together a personality from

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Speaker 1: someone way back then. But by most accounts, Cope was

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Speaker 1: a bit mercurial, a little more outgoing. Marsh was a

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Speaker 1: little quieter and kind of known as a bit of

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Speaker 1: a flake, you know. But considering their backgrounds, it sort

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Speaker 1: of makes sense where they ended up. Marsh, you know,

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Speaker 1: they went about their work in very different ways. Marsh

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Speaker 1: didn't publish his first paper until he was thirty years old.

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Speaker 1: He was a lifelong bachelor. Cope married when he was

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Speaker 1: twenty five. And Cope, you know, even the way they

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Speaker 1: wrote co wrote these very sort of flowery descriptions of things. Well,

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Speaker 1: Marsh was much more sort of rigid and sort of

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Speaker 1: dry and scientific.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like if you read Cope stuff, he's trying to

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Speaker 3: like set the scene for you. You know, there's one

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Speaker 3: paper where he was describing terror acts, and like it's

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Speaker 3: a scientific paper, so all you have to do is

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Speaker 3: describe the bones and the measurements and extrapolate and that

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Speaker 3: kind of stuff. But he's like painting the picture of

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Speaker 3: what it must have been like on a cliff side

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Speaker 3: by the ocean as a troop of these things were

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Speaker 3: dangling by their claws. You know. Yeah, it's super cool.

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Speaker 3: It would definitely transport the reader there, and it was

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Speaker 3: a little extra dollop of something that you didn't have

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Speaker 3: to put on. But Cope definitely did put on, which

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Speaker 3: is surprising that he put anything extra into his work

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Speaker 3: because he published at an extraordinary pace, so much so

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Speaker 3: that Marsh in particular was like, this man is obviously fraudulent.

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Speaker 3: Nobody can publish this much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And we'll touch on that a bit later.

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Speaker 1: The big difference in their earlier careers was when it

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Speaker 1: came to religion. Like you said earlier, Cope was a

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Speaker 1: Quaker and was a religious man.

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Speaker 2: Marsh was not.

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Speaker 1: He was not very into religion, and he was fully

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Speaker 1: down with evolution and natural selection and Darwin, whereas Cope

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Speaker 1: kind of had to make it all fit within his

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Speaker 1: religious beliefs. So it's not like he outright like called

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Speaker 1: Darwin a fraud or anything like that, but he worked

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Speaker 1: in like the actions of God into his theories and

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Speaker 1: sort of made it all work according to his you know,

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Speaker 1: religious beliefs.

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Speaker 2: Which is I mean.

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Speaker 1: Back then a little a little bit different, but even

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Speaker 1: back then for a scientist, sort of an odd thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. But he tried to rectify science and

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Speaker 3: his religious belief and the way that a lot of

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Speaker 3: people did that back then was to subscribe to neo Lamarckism,

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Speaker 3: which is this idea that changes in a population take

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Speaker 3: place on the individual level. Like an example I saw

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Speaker 3: was if you're a blacksmith and you use your arm

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Speaker 3: a bunch to hammer, you're going to get a big

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Speaker 3: old bulky arm.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: Well, when you have kids, you're going to pass that

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Speaker 3: bulky arm that you developed in your lifetime off to them.

401
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Speaker 3: And that's how evolution happens. And it's much more directed

402
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Speaker 3: by God than what Darwin was saying, which is you're

403
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Speaker 3: just born with a random mutation, and if that mutation

404
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Speaker 3: happens to make it more likely for you to survive

405
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Speaker 3: to pass along your genes, then that mutation will get

406
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Speaker 3: selected by nature, which basically has nothing to do with God.

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Speaker 3: So there was a real struggle for Cope throughout his

408
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Speaker 3: lifetime rectifying the two, especially considering Chuck that the body

409
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Speaker 3: of work that he produced really helped prove Darwin's point

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Speaker 3: more than anything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure when it comes to like where things

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Speaker 1: went wrong, because they were still buddies up until this point.

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Speaker 1: It seemingly looks like Marsh drew first blood. Yes, we

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Speaker 1: mentioned that hadden Field dig earlier. So it's eighteen sixty eight.

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Speaker 1: Cope has left his job at Haversford. He's not very

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Speaker 1: happy there, so he leaves. He's really kind of feed

417
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Speaker 1: on the ground doing the work publishing paper which we'll

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Speaker 1: see later at an alarming rate, and working with Lighty,

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Speaker 1: who we talked about, and he invited Marsh because they're buddies,

420
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Speaker 1: and he was like, dude, you got to come check

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Speaker 1: this out. We found a legit dinosaur fossil on the

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Speaker 1: east coast. Marsh was like, great, I'll go check it out.

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Speaker 1: He loves what he sees and says, this is wonderful friend,

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Speaker 1: you're doing such great work here.

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Speaker 3: Pat on the back.

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Speaker 2: Then he sneaks back.

427
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Speaker 1: Later on by himself, yeah, and bribes the workers there,

428
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Speaker 1: Cope's workers and Lighty's workers and says, hey, man, if

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Speaker 1: you find any more good specimens, send them to this address,

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Speaker 1: and here's a little.

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Speaker 2: Dough for your effort.

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Speaker 3: Can you believe that.

433
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean just straight up sold him out right.

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Speaker 3: So Marsh has just outed himself as a very wormy

435
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Speaker 3: type of fellow not to be trusted. And the way

436
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 3: that I saw there was a really great American Experience

437
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 3: episode called Dinosaur Wars that really kind of described it.

438
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Speaker 3: Like to Cope, he subscribed to that gentleman's skull type

439
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Speaker 3: of mentality, which was there's unwritten rules, you know, like

440
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,400
Speaker 3: I came and showed you my quarry and you went

441
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,359
Speaker 3: behind my back to steal my fossils from my quarry.

442
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,440
Speaker 3: Not cool, That was Cope's take. From Marsh's point of view,

443
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:19,400
Speaker 3: he was kind of from the business like American school

444
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 3: of just conquer it all costs, and he owed no

445
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,400
Speaker 3: allegiance really to Cope in that sense that he saw

446
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,040
Speaker 3: an opportunity and he took it. And that was Marsha's

447
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 3: view of the whole thing. But the Cope that was

448
00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,679
Speaker 3: like that was not very cool, and I'm going to

449
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 3: remember that, but I'm still going to tentatively remain friends

450
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 3: with you.

451
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 1: All Right, Well, let's take a break and we'll come

452
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 1: back right after this and we'll we'll talk about what

453
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 1: Marsh always said was the reason they were no longer

454
00:23:47,200 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: friends right after this. All right, so Marsh has really

455
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 1: screwed his friend over. Yeah, behind his back, paid off

456
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: dudes to send him stuff. But according to Marsh, he's like,

457
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 1: that's not why we weren't friends anymore. That was not

458
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,360
Speaker 1: what really killed our friendship at all. Here's what happened.

459
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 1: Later on that year, Cope published a paper establishing this

460
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 1: new species, elas Mosaurus pleantarious.

461
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 2: Nice, thank you.

462
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 1: Marsh goes to the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philly

463
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 1: to check this thing out, because they're still sort of

464
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: friends at this point, and Cope showing off his things,

465
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: like look at this thing. I put this thing back

466
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: together and look at the skeleton. It's amazing, and said,

467
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: my friend, it appears you have fallen into the classic

468
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: paleontology trap and mounted the head on the butt.

469
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 3: Yep.

470
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 2: And this was a humiliating thing for Cope.

471
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 3: Sure, so much so that he realized, oh god, I

472
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 3: just wrote a paper describing this thing with its head

473
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 3: on the wrong end in the American Philosophical Society's journal,

474
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 3: and ran out and tried to buy as many of

475
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 3: these copies as he could just to cover up his

476
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 3: mistake and the way that the way that Marsh put

477
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 3: it later, because he ran around telling everybody he could

478
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 3: about this gas.

479
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: He was very glib about it.

480
00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 3: Oh, very very like he went. He just wanted to

481
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 3: make sure that everybody knew that Cope had screwed up. Right.

482
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 3: Whereas he characterized the story, he characterized himself in the

483
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 3: stories just having gently pointed this out, He basically said

484
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 3: that Cope's vanity was wounded and or his wounded vanity

485
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,479
Speaker 3: received a shock from which it has never recovered, basically

486
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 3: saying like, not only did he get it wrong when

487
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 3: I gently pointed this out, this guy just flipped out

488
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 3: and he still hasn't forgiven me. So that's what happened

489
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 3: to our friendship. Never mind the whole going behind his

490
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 3: back thing at haddn't Field. This is really what happened.

491
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 3: But the thing is that story isn't even correct. It's

492
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 3: just like a sliver of the fuller picture, because the

493
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,479
Speaker 3: fuller picture involves Joseph Lighty, who again remember was working

494
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 3: at the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia where this

495
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 3: skeleton was in the first place.

496
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 1: That's right, So what apparently really happened is is Marsh

497
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 1: comes in and just says, oh, actually the neck vertebrae

498
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 1: is in the wrong position. That got everyone over there looking,

499
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: and Lighty is the one who actually said, oh, no,

500
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: you have the head in the wrong place where the

501
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 1: tail is. And to fully paint a picture here. This

502
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,679
Speaker 1: wasn't like some huge, big deal like mistakes. It was

503
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: very early on in paleontology. Everyone was doing their best.

504
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 1: There was a lot of trial and error going on,

505
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: a lot of guesswork, and it wasn't like, oh my gosh,

506
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 1: you know, it's not like someone today drawing the head

507
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: of a bear mounted on his butt. They were doing

508
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 1: the best they could and it wasn't like some huge

509
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 1: error right.

510
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 3: No. And it is true from what I understand that

511
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,199
Speaker 3: Coke did run around trying to buy the copies of

512
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 3: the American Philosophical Society Journal that had the incorrect part

513
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 3: in it, and he was humiliated, especially the fact that

514
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 3: Marsh was involved. But it definitely wasn't Marsh running to

515
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 3: the rescue to save paleontology and Coke just being a voice. Overall,

516
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 3: it was definitely an incorrect picture that Marsh painted, But

517
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 3: regardless of how it's painted or what actually happened that

518
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 3: two prong attack on the friendship, both of them perpetrated

519
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 3: by marsh Frankly, if you ask me, that ended their friendship.

520
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 3: Like their their friendliness was basically out the door. There's

521
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 3: some evidence that in the following couple of years when

522
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 3: they wrote to one another, they would kind of jokingly

523
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 3: reference some of the stuff in the past, but that

524
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 3: even that eventually dried up and they genuinely became bitter rivals.

525
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 3: Made all the more pronounced when the West was opened

526
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 3: up by the Transcontinental Railroad, because all of a sudden,

527
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 3: you had said earlier that the fossil fields in the

528
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 3: East were well, the conditions of climate and geology in

529
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 3: the East were not conducive to preserving dinosaur bones. The

530
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 3: exact opposite is true of the Western United States, and

531
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 3: when the West opened up, it was like, come on.

532
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 3: In paleontology, the timing of the two is just astoundingly perfect.

533
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, we're talking about the Dakota's Kansas, just

534
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: bones everywhere and not even too hard to find a

535
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: lot of times.

536
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean.

537
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: If you were a paleontologist and you headed west, if

538
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: you had some protection, because this is despite all our efforts,

539
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: it was still sort of a dangerous area for a

540
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 1: white man from the east to be traveling around the

541
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: Native American tribes there, and the Western tribes did not

542
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: take kindly to a lot of.

543
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 3: It, no, because think about it, like, they went from

544
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 3: you know, wagon trains of settlers coming through periodically to

545
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 3: trains daily moving people in and out. So it was

546
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 3: a big deal to the Western tribes who were fighting

547
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 3: back and pushing back against this encroachment and wave that

548
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 3: was coming much more strongly than it had been before

549
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 3: the railroad too.

550
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

551
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 1: So from this point on, the guys took very sort

552
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: of different I guess we're forced to take different approaches

553
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: to their careers. Cope basically spent the rest of his

554
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: life as a working paleontologist, like feet on the ground.

555
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: For the most part, he didn't work at a college.

556
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: He didn't work at a museum until much much later.

557
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: He was not like taking care of or funded by

558
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: the government, so he paid for all that. You know,

559
00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: he came from a wealthy family, so he paid for

560
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 1: most of this stuff himself. Sold his farm, his family

561
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: Quaker farm, and got a big fat inheritance and started

562
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: going west and started amassing this big collection that was

563
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: actually his, which was a really big deal because since

564
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: no one was contributing to his financial burdens, he I

565
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: guess technically owned this stuff, right.

566
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 3: He owned a farre and square. I mean, he financed

567
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 3: his own expeditions. He paid for the shipping and transportation

568
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 3: of these things, which is another thing. The railroad helped

569
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 3: it not only open the West, that helped ship enormous

570
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 3: bones back east to the museums. But he was paying

571
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 3: for this, so yeah, that his collection was his own. Marsha,

572
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 3: on the other hand, being ensconced in Yale, he was

573
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 3: able to rely on Yale, Yale families, the government contacts

574
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,360
Speaker 3: that Yale had to finance the expeditions that he went on.

575
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 3: So in his mind it was his collection, but technically

576
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 3: it really wasn't because he hadn't financed any of it himself.

577
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 3: It had all been financed by others. The thing about

578
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 3: marsh though, Chuck, is that he was the first one

579
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 3: to make it out west, and because he was the

580
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 3: first one there, he basically considered the entire Western United

581
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 3: States his turf and everyone else was encroaching on it,

582
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 3: which is awfully rich. If you can remember what he

583
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 3: did to Cope back at Haddenfield, and so you know,

584
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 3: back then there wasn't any kind of ownership on any fossils.

585
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 3: But now that he's the first one out west, there

586
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 3: is such a thing, and they all belonged to him

587
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 3: for sure.

588
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: So Cope then, you know, when it comes to academics,

589
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: they also were really really different in how they approached things.

590
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: We kind of teased earlier about how much Cope wrote

591
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: and published, and boy, it's astounding. It seems like he

592
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: published throughout his career about fourteen hundred academic papers. In

593
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: the eighteen seventies, he was doing about twenty five papers

594
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: a year, and in one winter alone of eighteen seventy

595
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: nine and eighteen eighty he published seventy six papers, very prolific,

596
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 1: to the point where it was pretty easy for someone

597
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: like Marsh to poke holes and kind of say that

598
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: he was either copying people, or plagiarizing people, or just

599
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 1: outright fraudulent, and that no one can write this much stuff.

600
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: It also presented a problem in that Cope he was

601
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: publishing so much that he had a hard time getting

602
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,640
Speaker 1: stuff published as a while. After a while, because there

603
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: weren't a ton of scientific journals and they can't be like, listen, man,

604
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: we can't publish like ten things a month from you

605
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: or a quarter because we'll just call this thing the

606
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: Cope Journal. And he said, that's a great idea. So

607
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy seven he bought the American Naturalist Journal

608
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: for himself to publish all his own works, which ended

609
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: up being a really I don't know about bad choice,

610
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: but financially it is what really put the biggest dent

611
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: in his future fortunes was sinking a ton of his

612
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: own money into this American Naturalist Journal.

613
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 3: Oh was that right? I thought it was the silver mine.

614
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 3: The journals set him up for it.

615
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the silver mine was a last ditch effort

616
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: to try and make a little bit of money. Uh huh,

617
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: because he was almost broke by that point.

618
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 3: So he but he does have this forum now, whether

619
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 3: it's a good business opportunity or not, he has a

620
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 3: forum to publish it. And like you're saying, he wrote

621
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 3: just so many papers. Not only was it just too

622
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:33,239
Speaker 3: many for the journals to keep up with, there were

623
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 3: also a lot of questions from these journals, like, wait

624
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 3: a minute, if you're like a deliberate, thoughtful scientist, you

625
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 3: shouldn't be able to publish this much. And one of

626
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 3: the problems of the Bone Wars, the rivalry between Cope

627
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 3: and Marsh, that really kind of got both of them

628
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 3: to be the first to rush to name a species

629
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 3: or make some new discovery so that the other one couldn't,

630
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 3: is that there was a lot of sloppy work that

631
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 3: came out of it. And when there's a lot of slappy,

632
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,719
Speaker 3: sloppy taxonomical work where the same species is getting different

633
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 3: names from different people at the same time, that takes

634
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 3: a lot to entangle. And apparently it took paleontology many

635
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,800
Speaker 3: decades to kind of undo some of the sloppy work

636
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 3: that was kind of late at the foundation of the

637
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 3: field in the eighteen seventies.

638
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and especially at Cope's feet, because for his part,

639
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: Marsh was very much more methodical, did not publish nearly

640
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 1: as many papers, But along with that comes a lot

641
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: more prestige. No, no one's going to talk about Marsh

642
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,400
Speaker 1: and say that he's publishing too much, he's doing sloppy work.

643
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: So as a result, they were published in some really

644
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: prestigious journals over the years, kind of almost exclusively, and

645
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: he had, like you said, Yale behind him, so he

646
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 1: would take students a lot of times to make them

647
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: pay their own way, because this is all a very

648
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: expensive endeavor for the time you know, cope was sort

649
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: of created, and how he would fund some of this,

650
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: like he would latch onto other Western expeditions that had

651
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 1: nothing to do with paleontology. This was one called the

652
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: Wheeler Survey, which was a mapping expedition that he was

653
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 1: able to hook up with. So he would cut corners

654
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 1: and save where he could. But with the power of

655
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,359
Speaker 1: Yale University behind him and these students who would pay

656
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: their own way, Marsh had a real advantage.

657
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,439
Speaker 2: When it came to staking his claim out West right.

658
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 3: And also there was one of the first expeditions he

659
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:31,320
Speaker 3: went on was funded by the families of some Yale students,

660
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 3: So it was some you know, Yale students and Marsh

661
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,919
Speaker 3: basically playing cowboy out west and the first I guess

662
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 3: the first day once they arrived out West where they

663
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 3: were going to dig, Buffalo Bill Cody shows up basically

664
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 3: kind of like as a guest star, to appear and

665
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 3: just delight and thrill the Yale boys, one of whom

666
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 3: wrote about the whole expedition, and the whole thing got

667
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 3: published in Harper's. So the whole thing kind of demonstrates

668
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 3: that Marsh, as much as he's kind of seen as

669
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 3: like this meek, deliberate scientist, was also really good at

670
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 3: self promotion too.

671
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,439
Speaker 2: Oh for sure, he would wear a gun.

672
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: I think he sort of fashioned himself as a Teddy

673
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: Roosevelt type or maybe a Buffalo Bill type. And yeah,

674
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 1: he would toot his own horn for sure. For his part, Cope,

675
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: after his father passed away, spent less and less time

676
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: out west in the actual field, more time in Philadelphia,

677
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,439
Speaker 1: and he would hire guys out and in fact, Marsh

678
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 1: would later go on to do a very similar thing

679
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: where they would have their diggers out there excavating and

680
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 1: then sending bones back to the East coast where they

681
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 1: could do their dig in and do their studying there.

682
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,240
Speaker 3: Right, And it's out west that the famous bone Wars

683
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 3: really started to take place. But like you were saying,

684
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 3: neither Marsh nor Cope were there, But what was going

685
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 3: on out west, all the dirty deeds and all that

686
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 3: stuff were at the direction and behest of these two.

687
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 3: You want to take another break and then get into

688
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 3: what the bone wars are really all about Yeah, okay, we'll.

689
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 4: Be right back, all right, Chuck.

690
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 3: So the eighteen seventies roll around the West has opened

691
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 3: up from the Transcontinental Railroad. It's giving up its fossils.

692
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 3: It's just crazy how well preserved fossils are out there

693
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 3: because of heat and dryness and wind erosion exposes them.

694
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 3: And there was a part of that American Experience documentary

695
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 3: where they showed a picture of like just this landscape

696
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,959
Speaker 3: that you could see from the train, and they said

697
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 3: that that some expedition was riding by and figured that

698
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,360
Speaker 3: they were riding by just a rock out cropping, and

699
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 3: they realized there was just a field covered in dinosaur bones.

700
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 3: That it wasn't rocks, it was bones. That's how many

701
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 3: bones there were out west. So the West is starting

702
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 3: to yield this stuff. And just one place would become

703
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 3: like a treasure trove, and another place would become a

704
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 3: treasure trove. And each of these places, some prospector would

705
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 3: find a big bone and the first thing they would

706
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 3: think of was, I need to either get in touch

707
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 3: with Cope or Marsh because these guys are going to

708
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 3: want to know about this and they'll probably pay big

709
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 3: bucks for it. And that's really once they stopped mounting

710
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 3: their own expeditions. That's how they got most of their

711
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 3: bones was from amateurs getting in touch with them.

712
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this this would open the door for these

713
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: guys to really kind of get underhanded. They would hire

714
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: guys away from each other. They would pay for information

715
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: about the other person's digs and the bones that they

716
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: were getting. They would out bid one another, and like

717
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: you know, eventually, like I said, both of these guys

718
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,879
Speaker 1: would end up pretty much financially ruined in the end.

719
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:11,720
Speaker 1: There were reports of sabotage of theft. There were reports

720
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 1: of dynamiting the other persons like digs in their camps.

721
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 3: Well, one thing I saw listen to this, marsh ordered

722
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 3: that if his men couldn't get bones out of like

723
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,959
Speaker 3: a find, like they just couldn't get it out, he said,

724
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 3: smash them, do not leave them, because I don't want

725
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:29,720
Speaker 3: Cope to possibly be able to get them himself.

726
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: Not only that, but the bones that they would like,

727
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: smaller finds that they would dig up that they didn't

728
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 1: think were as important, they would smash so the other

729
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 1: person wouldn't have anything to do with them.

730
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, so they were smashing the fossils that they sought

731
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 3: for science because of their rivalry. That's the insane degree

732
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 3: that it reached.

733
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, it's easy now to And I'm

734
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 1: wondering if this, like how much they had to trump

735
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: this up for a movie script, because it seems like

736
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: some of this is exaggerated. I don't know if they

737
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: found actual evidence that they would dynamite each other's camps.

738
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 1: It seems like the most they would do is like,

739
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,000
Speaker 1: you know, push dirt back onto the things that they

740
00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: had dug up and not you know, again their lackeys

741
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 1: out there are doing this stuff. And you know, these guys,

742
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 1: this was all kind of perpetrated by Martian Kope themselves.

743
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: They would kind of trump up these stories in the

744
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 1: press and things to kind of make the other one

745
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 1: look bad. So while there were bone wars going on,

746
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: I'm not sure it was quite as like exciting as

747
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: they're made out to be.

748
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 3: Well, there weren't like shootouts or anything like that, but

749
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 3: I mean, just the fact that these two paleontologists are

750
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 3: trying to sabotage one another's career is kind of hilarious

751
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:44,799
Speaker 3: in and of itself, you know.

752
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean and it could have you know, the

753
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 1: fact that these guys were driving each other.

754
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 2: It's like this is the lens we look at it through.

755
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: Now, it's like, did this hurt the field of paleontology

756
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: or help it? And you can kind of look at

757
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 1: it from two angles. In one hand, what if they

758
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: would have worked together and pool their resources, maybe they

759
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: could have found a lot more and gotten a lot

760
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,080
Speaker 1: more things straight that they didn't have to untangle later.

761
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 1: Or maybe because they were so competitive and drove each

762
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: other to work harder, maybe they were uncovering things because

763
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: of that, because they uncovered a lot of stuff, Like

764
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: they were both super prolific together. I think between the

765
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 1: two of them they accounted for one hundred and twenty

766
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: six new species of dinosaur and that's just dinosaur.

767
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, and again this is at a time where you

768
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 3: could like stub your toe and look down and you

769
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 3: just discovered a new species of dinosaur because so little

770
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 3: work had been done in the field. But yeah, they

771
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 3: definitely did drive one another to work harder and faster

772
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 3: and try to outdo one another. And one of the

773
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,280
Speaker 3: big benefits that the field saw that you can point

774
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,359
Speaker 3: to in retrospect and even at the time was that

775
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 3: winner of eighteen seventy seven that I was talking about.

776
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,839
Speaker 3: This is like winter in Wyoming. It's not a very

777
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 3: welcoming climate. And yet both marsh and Cope hired their prospectors,

778
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,919
Speaker 3: their bone diggers to continue working through the winter. Rather

779
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 3: than taking a break like you traditionally would you dug

780
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 3: in the summer, wrote papers in the winter. They said, no,

781
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 3: keep going. This is just too The bones that are

782
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 3: coming out of this place are too good, and I

783
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 3: don't want my rival to be the one to take

784
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 3: them all out. So both kept working through the winter,

785
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 3: and out of that one winner, we got Triceratops, we

786
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 3: got a Patosaurus Vegasaurus. All from that one winner of

787
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 3: eighteen seventy seven. And if you can't look back and say, yes,

788
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 3: these guys drove one another to this level of discovery,

789
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 3: I don't know what you can say. I just throw

790
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,439
Speaker 3: my hands up in disgust. Otherwise, did that make sense?

791
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: Sure?

792
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:49,720
Speaker 4: Okay?

793
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,879
Speaker 1: I mean, as a paleontologist, you could literally just say,

794
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: you know, the triceratops, I discovered it.

795
00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that.

796
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: Could be it. That could be your career right there.

797
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 3: Let alone the stegosaurus on top of the triceratops, come on, sure,

798
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 3: and then a Patosaurus that may sound vaguely familiar. But here,

799
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 3: let me drop one on you that you'll say, Oh

800
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 3: you ready, Bronosaurus, same thing apparently.

801
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't even fully get.

802
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,760
Speaker 1: I mean, this gets into the weeds with like serious

803
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: paleontology pedantry and nerding out, but yeah, I see Bronosaurus.

804
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 3: Allow me to nerd out for just a second. The

805
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 3: point of the Patosaurus Bronosaurus being the same thing with

806
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 3: different names is one of those things that's frequently laid

807
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 3: at the feet of Marsh is saying this was sloppy

808
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 3: work on Marsh's part, and maybe if he hadn't been

809
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,919
Speaker 3: competing with Cope, he would have done better work. That's

810
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 3: probably not the case. But he named the same species

811
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 3: two different things because he thought they were two different species.

812
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 3: And a later paleontologist about twenty thirty years later came

813
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 3: along and said, I think this is the same thing.

814
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 3: Since the recalled the Patosaurus first, that's what we're going

815
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 3: to call this from now on, and so scientifically Bronosaurus

816
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 3: should have gone. I can't believe about to say is

817
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:13,800
Speaker 3: the way of the dinosaur, But somehow it got into

818
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 3: the cultural zeitgeist, and everybody said, no, we like saying

819
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 3: bronosaurus more. I blame the Simpsons or the Flintstones because

820
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 3: of the Bronosaurus burger thing. Who knows if that's the

821
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 3: case or not, but that was supposedly the bronosaurs and

822
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 3: the Patosaurus are the same thing, and really you're supposed

823
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 3: to call him a patosaurus. There you have it, folks

824
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 3: nerding out.

825
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,240
Speaker 1: So in the eighteen eighties, this is after the big

826
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 1: rush of the late seventies, things started to change a bit.

827
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 2: So Marsha's got a couple.

828
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: Of good jobs. He works at the US Geological Survey

829
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 1: and as the president of the National Academy of Sciences.

830
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: But financially they're not doing so great on either side because,

831
00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: like we said earlier, they'd spend a lot of their

832
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,280
Speaker 1: own money trying to outdo one another.

833
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 3: Right, So marsh is in a way, way better position

834
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 3: than Cope. This is actually at a point when Cope

835
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 3: is kind of against the ropes, but rather than both

836
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 3: of them just kind of going their own way, the

837
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 3: dinosaur wars have kind of ebbed a little bit, and

838
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 3: they can just kind of go off and work as

839
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 3: paleontologist for the rest of their life. Marsh decides to

840
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 3: come after Cope and deal him the death blow the

841
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,839
Speaker 3: moment Marsh had a position of power that he could

842
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 3: use against Cope. He abused his position immediately. He was

843
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 3: very high up at the USGS, and he used that

844
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,760
Speaker 3: connection to freeze Cope out of any chance of getting

845
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 3: any kind of government funding for any further expeditions. So

846
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:49,240
Speaker 3: Cope was basically penniless, sorry Chuck, because he had invested

847
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 3: in that silver mine that he used the rest of

848
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 3: his money for. Basically the silver mine went bust, so

849
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 3: he lost all of his money. And now his greatest

850
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 3: enemy and rival was in charge of the purse strings

851
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 3: for government expeditions and had basically said you're not getting

852
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 3: a dime Cope. So Cope was left with his collection

853
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 3: and nothing else. That's bad enough, But then Marsh decided

854
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 3: to take it one step further and he introduced some

855
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 3: laws into the USGS. I guess bylaws that said if

856
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 3: a government, if a government program or agency has funded

857
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 3: an expedition, any fossils collected from that expedition belonged to

858
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 3: the government. And he sent the USGS after Cope's collection

859
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,399
Speaker 3: he tried to take Cope's collection, the only thing Cope

860
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 3: had left. He didn't have his family anymore. He was

861
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 3: living alone in like a tiny apartment surrounded by his collection.

862
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 3: It was all he had left, and Marsh tried to

863
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,919
Speaker 3: take it from him, and actually Marsh failed because Cope

864
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:50,759
Speaker 3: could prove that he had paid for most of it.

865
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 1: That's right, And it was that collection that kind of

866
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: funded the rest of his life. He would sell off

867
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 1: parts of it here and there when he needed to

868
00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 1: make rent and stuff like that. He did get a

869
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: job in eighteen eighty nine, he was hired as professor

870
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: of zoology at the University of Pennsylvania, so that's good.

871
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 1: At least he had a little bit of an income.

872
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: And they were dead to each other at this point,

873
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 1: though spent a lifetime battling each other. Cope was just

874
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: infuriated at the links Marsh would go. It was all

875
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 1: just very petty at this point, and neither one of

876
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: them come out looking great because of a career of

877
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: sort of backstabbing each other. And they went to the press.

878
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 2: In the end. I think it was Cope.

879
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: He had taken these copious notes over his life about

880
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: all the grievances he had against Marsh over the years,

881
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 1: and he went to the New York Herald. They published

882
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 1: an article about this, but it ended up just making

883
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 1: both of them look bad. It made Marsh look bad

884
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: because the things he did made Cope look kind of

885
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: petty and angry about everything. And this is all kind

886
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 1: of played out in public in the press.

887
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 3: Right and in this first article when Cope went to

888
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 3: the Herald, he accused not just Marsh of like wrongdoing,

889
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 3: but also the USGS of corruption, and that actually got

890
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 3: the interest of Congress, who started investigating and ended up

891
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 3: cutting the USGS's budget by like half. So Marsh ended

892
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 3: up losing his job and his position as had paleontologist

893
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 3: at the USGS. And in a beautiful ironic twist, that

894
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 3: law that he himself had inserted in through the USGS

895
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:36,399
Speaker 3: that anybody whose collection had been financed by the US

896
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 3: government could lose that collection meant that he actually lost

897
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 3: his collection. The government came after his collection and took

898
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 3: a substantial chunk of it for itself because it had

899
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 3: financed so much of his expeditions. So it ended up

900
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 3: turning him and biting him in his own rear, and

901
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 3: he lost a lot of his collection, which really burned.

902
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 2: So Cope died first.

903
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 1: He died in eighteen ninety seven at the age of

904
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: fiftyifty six, but not before he would issue a challenge

905
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 1: to Marsh, which is, I'm leaving my body in my

906
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: brain to science, and I bet you my brain's bigger

907
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 1: than your brain.

908
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 2: Marsh never took the bait.

909
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: He died in eighteen eighty nine of pneumonia at the

910
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 1: age of sixty eight, and by all accounts, did not

911
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: take part in this brain measuring competition, this posthumous competition

912
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: in the grave, which I think is kind of funny.

913
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 1: But that brain, I think Cope's brain is still still

914
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,760
Speaker 1: under the ownership of the University of Pennsylvania today.

915
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:41,560
Speaker 3: It still wanders the halls at night, amazing ghostly brain.

916
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 3: That's the surprise ending of this one.

917
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: That's right, And I guess in the end Marsh is

918
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: credited with eighty species to cops fifty.

919
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 3: Six, which is not bad. Plus also Cope has that

920
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 3: fourteen hundred papers under his belt too.

921
00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 2: It's a lot of papers.

922
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 3: Anything else about the bone wars, Nope, Well that's it, everybody,

923
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 3: there's I think there's a drunk history episode about this.

924
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:09,000
Speaker 3: I never saw it, but it looks pretty good. I

925
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 3: would recommend the American Experience episode on it and just

926
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 3: go read up more on it because it's pretty interesting stuff.

927
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,799
Speaker 3: And since I said it a bunch of times, just

928
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 3: now it's time for listener mail.

929
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: All right, I'm gonna call this Civil Air Patrol. This

930
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: is from Jackson Cherblatti.

931
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,200
Speaker 3: Can I ask you a question? Yes, there was a

932
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 3: big influx of Civil Air Patrol emails out of nowhere.

933
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:36,880
Speaker 3: Did you notice?

934
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 2: I did not.

935
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, we got like a handful of them just out

936
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 3: of the blue, and I didn't know if something happened

937
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 3: or what. But I guess it's making the round somehow.

938
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 1: Who knows. Maybe we're on the Civil Air Patrol.

939
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 2: Watch list web blog. They you did so from Jackson.

940
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: He says, I have been a listener for about seven years,

941
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: since I was ten years old. Anyway, I'm a senior

942
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,399
Speaker 1: mass sergeant in the Civil Air Patrol and I've been

943
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 1: in it for about two and a half years. I

944
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 1: was really excited you guys finally did a podcast on us,

945
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: as not a ton of people even though he exists.

946
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:12,360
Speaker 1: Some say we are the Air Force's best kept secret.

947
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 2: I don't know about that at fifty one.

948
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:20,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, might have something on you guys. It is nice

949
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 1: to get some publicity like that. Though, you guys totally

950
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:24,960
Speaker 1: nailed it. Did an awesome job. Like always being a

951
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 1: cadet in the program. I'd like to hear more about

952
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 1: that part. Maybe you could do a short stuff on

953
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: it someday. Cadet life is more of a training life

954
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 1: than in actually doing the stuff, like learning how to

955
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: lead effectively in all that jazz. We also have a

956
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 1: lot of mini boot camp things that we go to

957
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 1: further our learning. Anyway, you did an outstanding job and

958
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 1: I would appreciate it if you could give a shout

959
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 1: out to my squadron, the Green Mountain Composite Squadron.

960
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 3: It's not bad, not a bad name. Green Mountain Composite Squadron.

961
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 3: Sounds like a wholesale furniture material.

962
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 1: I was gonna say it sounds like a sort of

963
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 1: a modern bluegrass band.

964
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:10,520
Speaker 3: Oh that's a good one too. Yeah, Like there's a

965
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 3: lot of synth invall.

966
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 2: Sure, okay, synth and mandolin Okay?

967
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 3: And that was from Jackson. That's right, Jackson. Is he

968
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,120
Speaker 3: the front man for this bluegrass band?

969
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 2: Of course?

970
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 3: All right, Well, thanks a lot for writing in, Jackson.

971
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 3: Hopefully we'll fulfilled all of your requests and if we

972
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 3: didn't ts for you, If you want to get in

973
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:34,920
Speaker 3: touch with us like Jackson did, you can go on

974
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 3: to stuff youshould Know do dot com and check out

975
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:38,879
Speaker 3: our social links, or you can send us a good

976
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:41,800
Speaker 3: old fashion email, wrap it up, spank it on the bottom,

977
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 3: and send it off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

978
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,959
Speaker 1: You Know, Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

979
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 1: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

980
00:52:54,840 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.