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Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless,

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Speaker 1: severely bug bitten in my case, underwear listening podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by on X. Hunt creators are

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Speaker 1: the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the

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Speaker 1: Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store. Nor

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Speaker 1: where you stand with on X? All right, Thomas mcguen,

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Speaker 1: are you okay talking about really old work of yours? Oh? Sure, right,

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Speaker 1: I don't care what we're talking about. Because when you

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Speaker 1: when you look at all the things you've done and written, Um,

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Speaker 1: where does Rancho Aldi? Where does the movie ranch Aldi Lux?

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Speaker 1: Where do you stack that into? You know, if you

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Speaker 1: were gonna live, if you're gonna have had a tombstone,

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Speaker 1: and they were gonna list your accomplishments on your tombstone,

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Speaker 1: what I put Rancho Deluxe? Rancho and make the tombstone.

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Speaker 1: I've already written the text for the tombstone. It says

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Speaker 1: it's been a great life. I wish I understood it well.

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Speaker 1: Rancho Deluxe was a happy accident in a way. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's never stopped playing, as I'm sure you're aware, But

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Speaker 1: basically what happened was a producer, uh bought nine two

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Speaker 1: in the Shade and they couldn't get the they couldn't

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Speaker 1: get the financing together in a short term, and they

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Speaker 1: said do you have because they didn't have a script,

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Speaker 1: I said, They said, do you have anything ready to go?

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Speaker 1: And I said, yes, I do, I have a screenplay

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Speaker 1: ready to go. That wasn't true. I hadn't written anything.

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Speaker 1: And he said, well, i'll be I'll be back in

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Speaker 1: two weeks. Uh, and let's see what you've got. So

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Speaker 1: I went into my son's bedroom. He was about ten

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Speaker 1: years old at the time, and in two weeks I

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Speaker 1: had written Ranch of Deluxe. And he flew in from

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Speaker 1: l A and I said, here it is. And he

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Speaker 1: went back to my son's bedroom and he came back

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Speaker 1: out he said, this is great. We're gonna make it.

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Speaker 1: So it was a lucky thing from then on, you know.

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Speaker 1: And then there were people just were amused by the

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Speaker 1: idea that Jeff Bridges was early in his career. Sam

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Speaker 1: Waterson was early in his career. My brother in law

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Speaker 1: did the music. Uh. Other people came up to hang out,

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Speaker 1: like Warren Oates and Harry Dean Stanton and other people.

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Speaker 1: We we just had a lot of fun making that movie.

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Speaker 1: So I'm glad it have found an audience. Oh. I

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Speaker 1: recommend it to people all the time, but I find

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Speaker 1: that when I show it to people, they need to

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Speaker 1: have they need to have a little bit of pre awareness.

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Speaker 1: Yea of the West, Yeah, and some of the conflicts

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Speaker 1: and different personality archetypes from the West, well or else there.

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Speaker 1: They wind up being a little baffled by it. Well

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Speaker 1: that's good. It's a litmus test. Yeah, that's good because

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Speaker 1: that was actually that was actually the impulse to write it,

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Speaker 1: write it, because I mean, we were I was under

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Speaker 1: when I got here in the sixties. I was aware

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Speaker 1: there was this kind of official version of Montana life,

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Speaker 1: which was the same as the Chamber of Commerce version.

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Speaker 1: It was all big sky um uh cowboys and Indian stuff,

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Speaker 1: and and everybody I knew was you know, poaching, selling, selling,

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Speaker 1: uh the ill gut and gains to buy dope and

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Speaker 1: motorcycle parts. You know. I thought, well, this is what

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Speaker 1: I know to be going on. Why doesn't anybody talk

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Speaker 1: about this? So that's what I wanted, That's kind of

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Speaker 1: what I wanted to do. I haven't quite got over that. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I'm still very conscious between of the tension between what

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Speaker 1: I know was as a day to day person in

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Speaker 1: Montana for fifty two years with the official version of

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Speaker 1: life in Montana, and I've always felt that tension that

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Speaker 1: I went and I'd like to use that think of

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Speaker 1: things i want to write about. Uh. You mentioned that

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Speaker 1: your brother in law does the music. And your brother

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Speaker 1: in law's Jimmy Buffett, and he has a cameo by

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Speaker 1: the way, he sho he would had a concert yesterday

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Speaker 1: in Michigan. People came wow. By the way, I have

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Speaker 1: to interject it. I just came back from a book

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Speaker 1: festival in France. Do you know how many readers came.

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Speaker 1: They were running trains from Paris to sam Melo and

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Speaker 1: Brittany just to carry readers. Could that happen here? That's yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's really amazing. And in France, like I know that

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Speaker 1: your your late friend Jim Harrison would talk about how

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Speaker 1: well his books would do in France. Do you have

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Speaker 1: a lot of reader Do you get a lot of readers?

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Speaker 1: He and I both have more French readers and American readers.

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Speaker 1: Really yeah. In fact, one of the publishers over there said,

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Speaker 1: you literary people would be out of business if it

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Speaker 1: weren't for France as semi true. Harry was there like

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Speaker 1: ten times a year. Yeah, he's already honored over there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he had a huge following there. Um. It was

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Speaker 1: really kind of a rock star over there, Odd who

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Speaker 1: they settled at him. Not odd in Jim's case, but

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Speaker 1: like Paul Austro, who's a sort of a not easily

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Speaker 1: absorbed writer. He's another rock star in France. This I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna come back to my question. I didn't get to

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Speaker 1: my thing yet about Ranchodi Lux. But because you know, I,

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Speaker 1: as I talked about often, I grew up in Michigan

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Speaker 1: and we would and you for us like kids that

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Speaker 1: like to that like to read, um, and like the

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Speaker 1: fish and hunt like we all idolized you guys, and

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Speaker 1: we would think of you as like nuts on a dog.

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Speaker 1: You and Jim Harrison, um, where people be like, who

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Speaker 1: do you like to read? And people would say mcgwain

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Speaker 1: and Harrison has that Do you feel that that's just

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Speaker 1: the thing that comes from like a Michigan perspective where

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Speaker 1: you guys are so lumped in because you both I

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Speaker 1: went to the same school there. Yeah, has that been

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Speaker 1: your whole life? Have you found that people will roll

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Speaker 1: you guys together even though you're writing is so different. Yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: that's true. Uh, I mean it's confusing, I think, you know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, Jim and I were pals from the time

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Speaker 1: we were just out of our teams, really, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean we just coulda grew up in some ways together,

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Speaker 1: you know, pretty closely. Link. We wrote letters each at

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Speaker 1: least every week to each other for almost a half century.

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Speaker 1: I mean we did only stopped writing letters when he died.

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Speaker 1: I mean we did that so we were mentally really

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Speaker 1: involved in each other's consciousness, you know, to the to

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Speaker 1: the degree that since Jim died, I've got this kind

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Speaker 1: of uh it's like a blank channel on my phone

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Speaker 1: or some blank thing, you know. I don't know what

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Speaker 1: to do with it, you know, because I filled it

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Speaker 1: up for two thirds of my life with these dialogue

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Speaker 1: that we we had going. Jim was Jim and I

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Speaker 1: were very interested in the same things, uh, Other than literature.

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Speaker 1: We both hunted and fished constantly, or just found some

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Speaker 1: reason to be outdoors. He was a bird watcher, and

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Speaker 1: we wanted we didn't want to be in the house

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Speaker 1: as the bottom line, and he was a terrible terrible

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Speaker 1: hunter fisherman. He was all in his head. Really. I

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Speaker 1: remember one time we're you know, he couldn't hit He

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Speaker 1: couldn't hit up the barn with a bull fiddle, you know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, but if you ever shot something, he'd run

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Speaker 1: out and grab it and say it's mine. Oh and

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Speaker 1: one time, one time I said, now, Jim, I said,

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Speaker 1: I just shot that grouse. You know it's not yours.

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Speaker 1: He said, I know it is mine. And I said, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: but how how could we ever approve this? I said,

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Speaker 1: you did let off your gun, but I know you

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Speaker 1: can't hit anything. He said, We're going to get a

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Speaker 1: cheese grater and we're gonna shred this bird in count Pellets.

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Speaker 1: He said, you're what are you shooting? I said, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I'm shooting seven a halfs. He said, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm shooting eights and we'll be able to tell after

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Speaker 1: we shred this bird. Did you ever find out? I

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Speaker 1: think it's usual. I just handed the bird over. But

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Speaker 1: he had this tremendous responsiveness to anything in the natural world.

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Speaker 1: I mean, um, he just ignited. You know, in the

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Speaker 1: presence of any little thing it was going on, you felt,

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Speaker 1: you felt that in the like he did in a

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Speaker 1: genuine way, not just in a literary way. No, it's

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Speaker 1: very genuine, Like if he wasn't a writer, he would

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Speaker 1: still be doing that same thing. Yeah, right, I think

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Speaker 1: that's great. Yeah, that's where it hard a little bit

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Speaker 1: hard to understand him as I get older and older,

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Speaker 1: is it's hard to um he kind of in some

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Speaker 1: ways like set stage a little bit for uh, kind

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Speaker 1: of the literary madman, you know, like he kind of

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Speaker 1: created in somebodys He kind of created what we expected

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Speaker 1: to see there, and it was always hard to tell,

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Speaker 1: Like as I get older, it's hard to tell to

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Speaker 1: what degree that that he did it because he got

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Speaker 1: away with it, you know, like he did it because

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Speaker 1: that became expected of him. You know. Yeah, there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of that, the wine and the food and yeah,

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Speaker 1: the women, you know, yeah, I think that's right. I

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Speaker 1: mean there was a lot of that going on in

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Speaker 1: that era. You know, Hunter Thompson was very much like

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Speaker 1: you know, my son worked as Hunter tons of bodyguard briefly,

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Speaker 1: and I was around Hunter a lot too, and you

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Speaker 1: you know, you to spend a a day with Hunter

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Speaker 1: doing stuff or being around be very normal. But the

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Speaker 1: minute there was an audience around everything changed, you know

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Speaker 1: for the worst. Yeah. Uh, Jim was very audience awear

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Speaker 1: two I think right. Yeah, But um he was also

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Speaker 1: you know he was he was a very genuine in

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Speaker 1: other ways and and the other thing about Harrison he

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Speaker 1: was not often recognized as he was unbelievably intelligent. Um.

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Speaker 1: You could give him a tough European five page novel,

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Speaker 1: he read it overnight and remember everything in it. Um.

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Speaker 1: So that was That was probably the first thing I

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Speaker 1: would think about with Jim. But he was also pretty

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Speaker 1: curiously self propelled. I mean he would come out to

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Speaker 1: Montana for long, long stretches. Nobody ever knew he had

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Speaker 1: a wife and children, you know, I mean he just

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Speaker 1: did what he felt like doing. He was remarkably uh,

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Speaker 1: either independent or unilateral. Everyone looks. I want to come

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Speaker 1: back to my question about Rancho he Lucks. I was

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Speaker 1: worked as an arborist right for several years in western Montana,

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Speaker 1: and I met a guy um the last name of

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Speaker 1: what Glenda and he had been brought up on a

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Speaker 1: ranch in the Bridge Arrange. And he one day I

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Speaker 1: was telling me he said he was reminiscing about being

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Speaker 1: a kid. He talked about how they were filming a

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Speaker 1: movie once and his dad sold someone. I came here

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Speaker 1: if it was a bull or a steer, Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know that. Yeah, I know that bull and that family.

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Speaker 1: Yeah right, there's a big sheryl A. Yeah. It was great, great,

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Speaker 1: that was a great actor. You know, we put him

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Speaker 1: in a motel room. I don't know how we did that.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, was it that the one? I thought the

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Speaker 1: one he was talking about, Yeah, he's talking about the

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Speaker 1: one we shot. Maybe it was the one of that.

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Speaker 1: I just can't remember. But he had no idea about

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Speaker 1: the movie. You just knew a story about some people

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Speaker 1: making a movie. Maybe it was the one that went

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Speaker 1: into the hotel room. Yeah, and then then, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: we thought, well, we've gotta been the hotel room. What

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Speaker 1: are we gonna do with him? And then he then

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Speaker 1: he charged the TV set and explode. The TV exploded,

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Speaker 1: perfect for the film, completely unplanned. Yeah. And then the one,

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Speaker 1: the one that gets shot with the one gets so obvious,

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Speaker 1: like if you've seen animals, you know, you know, when

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Speaker 1: you're seeing something real, it's like apocalypse. Now. I made

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Speaker 1: the mistake recently of showing my nine year old the

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Speaker 1: end sequence of Apocalypse now where they kill water buffalo

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Speaker 1: and I didn't remember it the way that it looked,

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Speaker 1: and it traumatized them a little bit bad. But watching

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Speaker 1: in Rancholdilocks like that was a time like that. Stuff

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Speaker 1: doesn't wouldn't really happen anymore, that they would take a

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Speaker 1: Sharp's buffalo rifle shoot something for the camera. Well, we

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Speaker 1: had stuff like that happened. I'm glad it doesn't happen anymore.

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Speaker 1: I mean we had some catastrophes that we're making Missouri

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Speaker 1: Breaks with horses. Um, we wanted horses. We wanted horses

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Speaker 1: to swim the big Horn and they got tangled up

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Speaker 1: with old barbed wire on the bottom and stuff. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that was your film with Marlon Brando. Did you

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Speaker 1: work on that one? Yeah, I lived with Brando for

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Speaker 1: a while. Uh. That's a huge hit in in Europe,

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Speaker 1: the Missouri Breaks. Yeah, it's it's widely considered the best

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Speaker 1: modern Western. Just mad about it. I love it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's so off the wall, you know, I mean it was, Uh,

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Speaker 1: it was very interesting. I mean Brandon Jack Nicholson's kind

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Speaker 1: of a prick, but Brando was really a fabulous human being.

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Speaker 1: I just enjoyed all the time I had with him,

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Speaker 1: because he just had almost a Harrison kind of big aura,

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Speaker 1: you know, naturally speaking and uh and very unusual person.

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Speaker 1: I mean when I was staying with him, these kids

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Speaker 1: would come over to the house to get him to

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Speaker 1: repair their bicycles and get a little workshop and he

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Speaker 1: could do some electronics to fix it, fix their their

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Speaker 1: walk man. And I mean, he's just a very ordinary guy.

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Speaker 1: Never saw The Godfather, never saw the movie. How detached

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Speaker 1: he was from the industry. What did you not like

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Speaker 1: about Jack Nicholson. Oh, it's just a prick, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: I said, It's a great actor. He was very much

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Speaker 1: overshadowed by Brando. Brando did an interview in which he

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Speaker 1: said it was he loved watching Jack act. He said,

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Speaker 1: because like watching a guy with one finger play a

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Speaker 1: piano with one key, that that shouldn't bode well. And

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Speaker 1: then we cast the girl was hot girl, you know,

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Speaker 1: for the the love interest thing, and she was just

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Speaker 1: as gorgeous girl. But they got to and Nicholson was

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Speaker 1: trying to be sort of interested in her, you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of get into the sort of mood for the movie.

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Speaker 1: When they arrived in mont tennis, she announced that she

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Speaker 1: was a lesbian and moved into a tent with her girlfriend.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, you had to do it. Adapt man, that

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Speaker 1: was such a seems like such an unusual time there

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Speaker 1: to be involved in the culture around here, because I

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Speaker 1: feel like this area hadn't really been discovered by broader America.

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Speaker 1: Now it's true, you know, and I feel some of

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Speaker 1: that's my fault, but you know, I was I mean,

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Speaker 1: I was broke, you know. I was trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out how to survive here, and you can't. I couldn't

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Speaker 1: really survive writing literary fiction. I had a teaching gig

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Speaker 1: at Berkeley when one season and I thought, oh, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to do this because I loved teaching, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to write at the end of a

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Speaker 1: teaching day. And uh so I had to make some choices.

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Speaker 1: And so I moved over and go to place for

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Speaker 1: twenty eight dollars a month on South Age Street in

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Speaker 1: Livingstone and just started scrambling. You know. It's a room

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Speaker 1: for Sports Illustrated. I wrote novels, I wrote short stories,

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Speaker 1: and then I wrote the movies. You know. Um, I

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Speaker 1: heard an interview with you not long ago where you

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Speaker 1: were talking about that you like to hunt quail. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I like any kind of bird hunting. Again, and you

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Speaker 1: had an observation about quail hunting where And I might

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Speaker 1: get this wrong, but I think this is basically what

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Speaker 1: you had said, is that when there's a covey of

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Speaker 1: quail and you kill one of them, you don't have

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Speaker 1: the guilt that you might not otherwise have because you

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Speaker 1: think of the of the being as being the covey,

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Speaker 1: and the covey lives on. Well, it's true, first of all,

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Speaker 1: it's true, but yeah, but it's the same thing could

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Speaker 1: be true of any population if you look at it

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Speaker 1: at a metal level. Well, let's you kill a human

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Speaker 1: and be like, well, but humanity lives on. Well that's

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Speaker 1: a great point actually, and I'm you're a little jump

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Speaker 1: ahead of me on that, but I think I think

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Speaker 1: you're right. You know, Ivan Stradarn once said, he said,

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Speaker 1: people are really in the animal world. You know what

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Speaker 1: they talk about hunters, They're very worried about the individual

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Speaker 1: animal and not particularly worried about the species. And uh,

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Speaker 1: that's key to what you are You've got guys are doing.

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Speaker 1: And I agree with that. However, every now and then

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Speaker 1: I'll be out grouse hunting and two grouse will get up,

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Speaker 1: like it's late November. I'll kill one of them and

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Speaker 1: the other one goes off for a long winter, and

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Speaker 1: I sort of feel shitty. I can imagine, but for

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Speaker 1: some reason, I mean, I I have I have a

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Speaker 1: covey of huns that I've been shooting into for thirty years.

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Speaker 1: They're always the same side, you know, it's always twelve

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Speaker 1: to sixteen birds. I'll kill three or four birds every

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Speaker 1: year cove. He's always in the same place, always the

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Speaker 1: same size. If there are grasshoppers for the babies that year.

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Speaker 1: Did you used to hunt big game a little bit

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Speaker 1: and and not in your interest in that faded? I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I mean I was getting to be a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a trophy hunter, which was a sort

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Speaker 1: of against my principles. But we ate a lot of game.

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Speaker 1: I remember when my son and I I was for

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Speaker 1: a while, I was a single parent, and uh, we

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Speaker 1: were eating a lot of game. And I didn't have

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Speaker 1: any money, and I said, I said to him one time, oh,

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Speaker 1: I had a movie sailor something happened. I had a

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Speaker 1: bunch of money suddenly, And I said to him I'm

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Speaker 1: going to town to get some steaks. We're not gonna

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Speaker 1: eat this deer meat for a while. And so I

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Speaker 1: went and I get these beautiful ribbis, you know. And

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Speaker 1: he was out playing in the yard and I cooked

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Speaker 1: up these rig ribbies and he came walking in the house.

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Speaker 1: He said, oh my god, what's stinking up the house.

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Speaker 1: I said, it's these steaks. He said, oh God, throw

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Speaker 1: them away. The whole house stinks. He ran around opening

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Speaker 1: the windows to get this beef stink out of the house.

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Speaker 1: So that kind of was a watershed moment for me.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just, uh that and the fact, the

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Speaker 1: overnoticed fact that people don't seem to know where meat

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Speaker 1: comes from. And uh, I like, how you say that's overnoticed.

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Speaker 1: And I remember one time we're down in Florida and

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Speaker 1: my wife I like to snook fish and my wife

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Speaker 1: loves to eat snook, you know, And she said she

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Speaker 1: was going to the movies and a little community center.

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Speaker 1: She said, catch a snook tonight. We'll have a snook

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Speaker 1: for dinner. So I went out and labored away, and

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Speaker 1: I look this big snook and I'm down on the

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Speaker 1: dock and I'm getting ready to give him the wood shampoo,

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Speaker 1: and my wife's car lights come into the dry way

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Speaker 1: and she could gets out of the car and I said,

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Speaker 1: I got what I'm just gonna bring up to the

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Speaker 1: house now, and she said, don't hurt him. She had

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Speaker 1: been a filet. Should have been happy when he said,

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Speaker 1: you became a trophy hunter for a while. What do

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Speaker 1: you mean? Well, I got like interested trying to find

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Speaker 1: a big like you wanting to find a big mule here? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and uh did you find one? Yeah, a huge one?

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Speaker 1: If there's five of them. I killed the big one.

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Speaker 1: It looked like an alk lying out among the five pointers.

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Speaker 1: I mean he had an orange crate on his head,

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Speaker 1: and uh, I knew I'd never kill a bigger wood.

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Speaker 1: And also I questioned how good he was going to

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Speaker 1: be to eat? Uh and uh, But I mean I

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Speaker 1: look back on it, I mean I really missed those

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Speaker 1: days of really being obsessed, you know, getting up in

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Speaker 1: the morning and thinking which way the wind is and

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Speaker 1: how much snow there is. You know, where I think

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Speaker 1: they'll be that day, or where I could stay out,

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Speaker 1: where they'll come out of the trees, and I mean

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Speaker 1: where that whole scenario is running in your head. It's

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Speaker 1: fun to be obsessed, you know, I mean I like

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Speaker 1: being obsessed. Uh, And and I kind of missed that

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Speaker 1: part of it. And on the strictly the meat level,

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Speaker 1: I mean probably uh, last year's fawn would be the

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Speaker 1: one to shoot you if you wanted to want some meat.

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Speaker 1: And there's not much of a quest involved there, There's

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Speaker 1: no there's the sort of predatory adrenaline. Doesn't necessarily get

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Speaker 1: engaged over that that sort of thing. But probably one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons I've drifted towards bird hunting so much

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Speaker 1: is I really get obsessed with that. You know, I've

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Speaker 1: always I've had bird dogs my entire life and just

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Speaker 1: watching each one mind developed and how they get, how

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Speaker 1: they figure the game out, and how we do this together. Um.

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Speaker 1: Uh that that's a similar obsession. And you try you

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Speaker 1: travel a little bit to hunt, right because I remember

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Speaker 1: in an email you mentioned that you were done in

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Speaker 1: Texas hunting quail. Yeah. I've got a friend who lives

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Speaker 1: over by McAllister who had a little quail camp down there. Um,

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Speaker 1: a couple of trailers on on a on a lot

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Speaker 1: in West Texas and then we find leases or places

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Speaker 1: we can go. Um, I have a I have a

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Speaker 1: friend Burt Jones. Do you remember Burt Jones, quarterback for Indianapolis?

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Speaker 1: Great player? Really I know, Yeah, he's a wonder wonderful guy. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: he's got a quail least out there and West Texas.

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Speaker 1: West Texas is a great place to bird hunt because

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Speaker 1: it's totally First of all, there's a lot of habitat

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Speaker 1: left in West Texas for these birds. Uh. And it's

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Speaker 1: completely dependent on weather. I mean, you'll go almost to

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Speaker 1: zero where you couldn't find a quail with a helicopter,

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Speaker 1: and a year later they're hitting you on the head,

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Speaker 1: you know, just depending on the rain and the particular

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Speaker 1: distribution of weeds and things like that. Um So, anyway,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna hunt with him this year. And then broke

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Speaker 1: and I went to a couple of places uh uh

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Speaker 1: in Georgia and um, North Florida. In fact, my cousins

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Speaker 1: were all here and we had a big quail dinner

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Speaker 1: night before last. I brought a big lot of them back. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But I that whole quest thing that shared things like

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Speaker 1: for forty years I competed on cutting horses, and there's

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00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: a little similar thing where you're just trying to understand

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Speaker 1: what that horses figuring out and you're trying to cooperate

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Speaker 1: in that quest, you know. And it's the same with

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Speaker 1: bird dogs. You know, you see that that moment where

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Speaker 1: they're wondering, wondering if you're kind of off track, and

400
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Speaker 1: they look up at you and they're a hundred yards out,

401
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 1: and you go, you go like you know that communications thing,

402
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 1: and then when boom, when it works, you know, and

403
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 1: they've got them and you know they're out in front

404
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,240
Speaker 1: and it's your job now, and they kind of they

405
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Speaker 1: kind of look back a little bit like this, and

406
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Speaker 1: I mean it's very the heat rises considered. Yeah, what

407
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: is it real quick? What does it mean to compete

408
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: on a cutting horse? Oh that's a long story, but

409
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: I mean if you don't haven't seen a cutting or something.

410
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 1: I mean the rule book is ad pages long. So,

411
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: but it's basically, uh, you know, sorting cattle in a

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Speaker 1: competitive situation with very athletic, speedy, tough thing to figure out.

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Speaker 1: You never get to the bottom of it. It's very

414
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Speaker 1: tough and sorting just like they throw you in an

415
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 1: arena with a hundred and you cut out the tube. Yeah,

416
00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: you'd have to see it. We'd have to have a

417
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: a video to you could show you what was going on,

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00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 1: you know, what correctness and what the horses are doing,

419
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: what the riders are doing. Um. But the analogy to

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Speaker 1: bird hunting is is that it doesn't work unless you

421
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 1: have a pretty profound and sort of emotional relationship with

422
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Speaker 1: that horse or that dog. I mean, I've seen really

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Speaker 1: good dog handler you know, would if that dog got

424
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 1: out three yards and you wanted to stop and turn

425
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 1: and go someplace else. I know, dog handlers tap on

426
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:12,959
Speaker 1: the whistle and that dog will freeze. I mean, just

427
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 1: chill and go someplace else Whereas if you you can

428
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: blow the whistle all day long, that won't dog won't

429
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: even hear you. And all it is the tap, but

430
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 1: the the communication is so intricate at that level that

431
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: and you have to work at it all the time

432
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 1: for it to happen. So um, that's kind of supplanted

433
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: my big game hunting thing. Uh, but I've very you know,

434
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: I really value the impulse to hunt big game. I mean,

435
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 1: we're all talking about this all the time, but they

436
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 1: need stakeholders, and uh, I had I was fishing in

437
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: the Bahamas with them. Uh, Johnny Morris. You don't guys

438
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 1: know who Johnny the founder of bass Pro shops. Yeah,

439
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: he's got two hundred billion and loyal customers. He's he

440
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: just won the Audubon Award. Very much more of a

441
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: environmentally alert person in the Cabella's group were. But it's

442
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 1: one of the same now. Yeah, but the purchase and

443
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:25,479
Speaker 1: but their data tells them that the gun and hunting

444
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 1: community is declining. And I was talking to my friend

445
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: and Barbara big Timber and his son manageres Cabella's a

446
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,720
Speaker 1: Missoul and they're frustrated because they're not getting then the

447
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:43,479
Speaker 1: volume of weaponry um that they used to get before

448
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: this changeover is because Johnny Morris knows the future really

449
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: is fishing, not hunting um. And you know, we have

450
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: a wonderful shop here in town, sporting and story called

451
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: the Sport. Have you all ever been in the Sport? No,

452
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: I haven't. Anyway, it's been real deepot from sales and

453
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: stuff like that, And until very recently it was just

454
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 1: you know, all sporting things, you know, varmint rifles, big

455
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: game rifles and shotguns and all that stuff. Well, it's

456
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: just the great presence of high concealable weapons. Now in

457
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: a K forty seven's completely supplanted. This sort of not completely.

458
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 1: They still carry a lots, but it's I mean, it's

459
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: a huge presence in that store in Big Timber, I mean,

460
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 1: you know, so, you know, I know, there's a lot

461
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: of zealotry around the Second Amendment and a lot of

462
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: controversy about that, but all these people who are sort

463
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: of gun nuts. I'm sort of a gun nut, but

464
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: all these people are sort of gun nuts who are

465
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: fanatical about our rights to have every kind of gun

466
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: and have it in every place, church, at school, every place,

467
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,400
Speaker 1: by the way, except the legislature. In the banks, can't

468
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: take guns there. You take them to kindergarten, but you

469
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: can't take them to a bank. Yeah, I've seen warnings

470
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: in entering sporting good stores. Yeah about Yeah, you can't

471
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 1: take them to the can't take them to the n

472
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: r A convention, yeah, in Las Vegas. Yeah so. But

473
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 1: but my point is not so much that is that

474
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 1: they're more interested in what often flies under the aegis

475
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: of hunting weapons. They're more interested in protecting the rights

476
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:22,199
Speaker 1: to have as many of those they want. They're not

477
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: very interested in protecting the quarry or the wildlife that

478
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: these are supposedly uh being sold to exploit. So they're

479
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 1: not they're not they're not. They're not battlers for public

480
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: land access, they're not battlers for well being, wildlife and

481
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: any of that. They just want the guns. And I

482
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 1: don't get that. A lot of people become pretty segmented

483
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: when it comes to the things that they're giving advocacy for. Yeah,

484
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: you know, like when someone's a crusader for something. Yeah,

485
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: they tend to fixate. Well that's that's that's possible. They

486
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: noticed that they're sort of boundaries there. I mean, it's

487
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: like the smart play there. The smart play is to understand,

488
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: um like play there is to understand and I think

489
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: the people that were playing the real long game on

490
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: that do understand that public participation in certain activities depends

491
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,959
Speaker 1: on viable resources and depends on access and then they

492
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,920
Speaker 1: understand that. But some people, um, you know, there's people

493
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,440
Speaker 1: like there's elements of the of the gun community that

494
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: they even have a derogatory term for people that focus

495
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 1: too much on hunting, where you become a fund fud

496
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 1: would be someone who views firearm ownership through the lens

497
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: of hunting would be a fud if you d like

498
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, I'm gathering elmer fud. Oh oh yeah.

499
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: Have you found like you know you can't fix stupid?

500
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: Have you found in your career this is guy. There's

501
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: probably a double edged sword to your involvement and throughout

502
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: your life with hunting, the implicit x bliss at involvement

503
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: with firearm ownership and fishing, where it's made up so

504
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 1: much of what you write about and so much of

505
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: your understanding of the world. But then you not out

506
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: of necessity and perhaps personal preference, You've worked with many

507
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: people who would be regarded, you know, like people in

508
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: Los Angeles or Hollywood, people in New York who would

509
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: have an innate suspicion of those things. So on one hand,

510
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: you're probably uh penalized in some way because of the

511
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: things you've been involved in. But in the other hand,

512
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: you wouldn't be here if it weren't for those things,

513
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: because those are the things that make up your work.

514
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:43,440
Speaker 1: When I hear that, like in my line of work, personally,

515
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 1: when I heard it, some media enterprise or whatever doesn't

516
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: want to work with us because of the hunting thing,

517
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: or because of the gun thing. I'm always like, oh,

518
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: what a bummer, But I'm like, baha on it. If

519
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: it wasn't for those things, I wouldn't talk. I wouldn't

520
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: have any reason to be in the conversation anyways. Yeah,

521
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: because this is all I've ever talked about. Yeah, right,

522
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: right right? How have you ever felt that? Uh? Have

523
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: you ever felt that in a way that was painful

524
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: to you? Well? You know, you know, I'm in the

525
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: American Academy and I go back there for those meetings,

526
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: and one of my good friends is Joey Williams and

527
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: Joy Williams the most eloquent anti hunting book I ever.

528
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: She's the best anti hunting writer out there. No, She's

529
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 1: fantastically good. And she just feels it very strongly, you know.

530
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't I don't quibble at all with

531
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: the genuineness of her rage against the idea of killing animals.

532
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: And the old the old head of the uh uh

533
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: Humane Society once said, you know, why would you want

534
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: to kill something that wished to live? You know, it's

535
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: a big question. How do you get around it? I mean, uh,

536
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: you can't skip it, you know. Um, And I'm not

537
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: sure you get by by saying an incremental portion of

538
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 1: the meat I eat, I killed myself. You know, I mean,

539
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm a big McDonald's guy. Was right. Yeah,

540
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: I like junk food. I like good food. I like

541
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: junk food. But um so. But when I'm back in

542
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: the bubble, you know, I know there are things that's

543
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 1: just gonna be warfare if we want to have to

544
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: talk about it. I'm under contract to the New Yorker.

545
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: I wouldn't send them a hunting story. I barely would

546
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: send him a fishing story. You send him a lot

547
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: of story a lot of cattle ranchers. Yeah, oh yeah, Listen,

548
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: I'm aware of the of the uh, the the contradictory

549
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: nature of it. There's no doubt about it. Do you

550
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 1: feel that they wouldn't Do you feel that they would

551
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: not publish a story they had a protagonist or antagonist

552
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: who was a hunter. I don't know, but probably not.

553
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: But I mean, one of the things that drives me,

554
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: and one one reason I'm fairly comfortable with a ranching

555
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: culture is that some pretty profound studies have indicated that

556
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: when a ranch goes out of business for any reason,

557
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: if it goes out of business for any reason. No

558
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: matter what other trajectory it goes to, biodiversity drops sharply. Okay,

559
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: So even though you know I most of my friends

560
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: after at this point in my life were our right

561
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: wing ranchers, you know, Um, for reasons I could never

562
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: quite understand it. But but my county went, My county

563
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,719
Speaker 1: went for Donald Trump. They're doing. I don't want them

564
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: to go out of business, you know. And also, uh,

565
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: also I know that their reasons for voting and thinking

566
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: the way they do are a lot more subtle than

567
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: they are ascribed to them. Um. A lot of them

568
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: I know had problems with Obama, not because he was black,

569
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: but because he's an elitist and talked like a Harvard guy.

570
00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: They had real issues with his his his way of

571
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 1: expressing himself. He reminded him of the kind of people

572
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: that are trying to run them out of here. Uh

573
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,879
Speaker 1: nadn't care if it's black, I mean anything to him. Uh.

574
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: There is a simplified way I found that, you know,

575
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 1: time and again where there's a very but people have

576
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 1: people on both sides do it where you try to

577
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 1: boil people's motivations down to something that you know is unfair. Yeah,

578
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 1: but it's it helps with the rhetoric. I just got

579
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,680
Speaker 1: a friend of mine just forward forward to a really

580
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: brilliant piece. Actually it was in the Washington Post that

581
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: Rum Emmanuel wrote Rum fishes here, and it was the

582
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 1: idea that the only way to beat Trump was the

583
00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 1: best way to beat Trump is to not try to

584
00:34:55,160 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: out trump him. Um, and that the idea, uh, that

585
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: the squad is going to somehow another destroy at the

586
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: election is just craziness because moderates have always dominated presidential elections.

587
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: And but it is tempting to fight fire with fire,

588
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: you know. Uh, I mean I find this age culturally

589
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 1: politically to be unbelievably obnoxious. You know. I was just

590
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: I just came back from this book toward Europe, and

591
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: I mean, they wanted to know why we machine gun

592
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: our kids and why we do all these awful things.

593
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: And it used to be you go to France, there's

594
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 1: quite a little bit of hostility between the Americans and

595
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,840
Speaker 1: French people, even among intellectuals and culturally elites. It's not

596
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: true anymore. They just feel sorry for us. Uh. They

597
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,719
Speaker 1: think that we are taking what was the greatest experiment

598
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: democracy in the history of the world and ruining it,

599
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 1: and they can't figure out why we're doing that. They

600
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: mean that because you think they mean that just because

601
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: of the aesthetics, like the name calling and the divisiveness

602
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: like that aspect of American that level of discourse, of

603
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 1: the kind of wall building, and the and the a

604
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: country that uh build on the idea of free trade

605
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: wanting to launch all these tariffs, I mean, doesn't make

606
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:28,439
Speaker 1: sense to them. Looks like we've flipped out and knowing that, uh,

607
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: that approach has tremendous support here. Right, It's real, it's

608
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of alarming. But if you if you

609
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 1: live in a very conservative community, you know that that's

610
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: just part of what people are. You know, you know,

611
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,919
Speaker 1: it's just part of what people are. It's not it's

612
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: not as sweeping an indictment as it looks like it is.

613
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: Do you feel it? Do you feel politically? I mean,

614
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: I know politically you probably feel out of place, But

615
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 1: do you feel out of place being in a I

616
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 1: mean being you've been involved in ranching, but you but

617
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: you sit outside of ranchers in general? Just being a

618
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 1: writer's bad enough. I mean, uh, uh no, I I

619
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: was I feel pretty comfortable, you know, I spent ten

620
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 1: years roping stairs in the Northern Rodeo Association. Yeah no, no,

621
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: it's and uh, you know they think they just view

622
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: my progressive ism is just another quirk. You know, some

623
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: guy's got a drinking problem. I've got a progressive as

624
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 1: a problem. What are the Because there's a there's a

625
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 1: three you sit on the you're in the fly Fishing

626
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame, the Academy of Arts and Letters, and

627
00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: then there's a there's a schizophrenic. There's a horse. But

628
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 1: what's ther You're in some horse hall of fame. Yeah,

629
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: cutting cords, all of fame. Yeah, I don't know. I mean,

630
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: I just saw this thing. I read this quote. It

631
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: was just so great. Dostoevsky visited Charles Dickens, and Charles

632
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: Dickens said, well, I'm really too people, he said. There,

633
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: he said, I'm the person who creates all you know,

634
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,359
Speaker 1: all these these are positive characters. I'm also the guy

635
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 1: that creates scool Scrooge, and and he said, there's are

636
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 1: two two of me that does these two things in

637
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: Dosky said only two. So I write an interview with

638
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 1: you or you're talking to I think some kind of

639
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 1: He's like a literary reviewer. I can't remember his name,

640
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: like like a literary figure. Um, and you were talking

641
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: about a thing that you like, you were explaining that,

642
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: I thing you liked about horses, and you think they

643
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: liked about fishing because they had ritualistic qualities too. I

644
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 1: think that's right. Yeah, keep explaining that a little bit. Uh,

645
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: I think it's partly that. And it's something I mean,

646
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: my my problem. My father used to accuse me, this

647
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 1: is I'm just interest interured so many things. You know,

648
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 1: there's a problem. I can see that. Yeah. And and uh,

649
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: but those are things that really concentrate me, you know,

650
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 1: I mean, and pretty quickly too. I mean, it's afternoon,

651
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 1: I'm gonna string up a fly rod, and the minute

652
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 1: I set foot in the water river, all the kind

653
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 1: of conflicts and sort of multiplicity of my brain life

654
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 1: are going to go away. I'm just gonna I mean,

655
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get focused. And and uh, part of the

656
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 1: things that enables you to focus, you don't have to

657
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: reinvent the wheel every time you go hunting or you

658
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 1: go fishing. There there is there is there is ritualized

659
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: behavior that has a quasi religious dimension to it. And uh,

660
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 1: you know, since I don't have any other kind of religion,

661
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,279
Speaker 1: I like to I like to access that thing, that

662
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: pattern of doing things. It's the right way to do things.

663
00:39:55,400 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 1: And hunting is full of that, and and so fishing.

664
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 1: Give an example of of an activity that you would find,

665
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: I mean an activity within the activity, an activity within

666
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: fishing or an activity within hunting, that would be the

667
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 1: type of ritualistic behavior you're talking about. Boy, let me

668
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:19,879
Speaker 1: think I come up without well, I'm not sure I can.

669
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:21,920
Speaker 1: I'd have to, I'd have to brow down that for

670
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: a while. What you're saying, I think so that I

671
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,240
Speaker 1: understand correctly. It's not so much the rituals that man

672
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 1: or humans have come up for these activities, but more

673
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,919
Speaker 1: so the rituals they just come about of doing the activity. Well,

674
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: I think probably that. I mean, it's some of it

675
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: is habit for him. There's some of the things you

676
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: know that my father, my grandfather were hunters, or right

677
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: ways to do things. They're right ways. They're right ways

678
00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 1: around guns and dogs and things that you're supposed to do.

679
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:52,359
Speaker 1: How are you supposed to take care of things? Um? Uh?

680
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: And you really feel it when you're around people who

681
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: haven't had that kind of approach to it. They don't.

682
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: They don't have to inherit it genetically, but they have

683
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: to honor these kinds of practices about the way the

684
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,839
Speaker 1: way you do things. And I guess that's ritualized. Now

685
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 1: that's that's a funny observation or not funny. But I

686
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 1: do notice that I hadn't thought to put it in

687
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 1: those words. But when you're with someone, I spent a

688
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 1: lot of time around people who uh have began hunting

689
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: later in life. It began fishing later in life, and

690
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 1: it does that they have in their behavior or in

691
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 1: the way they do things. You realize there's nothing really wrote, Yeah,

692
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: there's nothing that they do it because that's how they

693
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: were shown to do it and always did it. And

694
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: I find too, now that I'm a parent, um, I

695
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: oftentimes encounter other parents with young kids who, for whatever reason,

696
00:41:55,600 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: are parenting with all new strategies that they earned or

697
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: read about or heard about, rather than sort of the

698
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,760
Speaker 1: activities that you would have seen the way your grandparents behaved,

699
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 1: and there was a way your parents behaved and the

700
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 1: expectations of children and these things sort of march on,

701
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: you know, And then I'll meet people who parent totally

702
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 1: outside of whatever inertia has gathered up, right, Yeah, that's great,

703
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: that's interesting. And they're like, oh no, we're trying, um,

704
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,760
Speaker 1: we're trying a new type of parenting. And it strikes

705
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: me in the same way that you see the same

706
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 1: thing in certain like just tying a fishing hook on,

707
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: Like there's the person that does it all the time,

708
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 1: and there's the person that seems to be dabbling, like

709
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 1: the dabbles in there, right. Um, I just have a

710
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,439
Speaker 1: thought of a version of that. I have a good friend.

711
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,879
Speaker 1: I won't name him because he's so well known, but oh,

712
00:42:55,960 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: go ahead, but he you know, I have fished for

713
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 1: steelhead for a long time, and there's a lot of

714
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: stuff about fishing through a run and if you catch

715
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 1: a fish, you know, you need to go all the

716
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: way back to the top of the run letter or

717
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: whoever was the run fish on? Yeah, And I was.

718
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: I was in a Charo del Fuego with this friend

719
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: of mine and we hit this really great run on

720
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: the Sea Run river and I said, you go ahead

721
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: and fish through it, and I'll fishing behind you and

722
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 1: you can catch fish. Blah blah blah. So he fished

723
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 1: all the way down and get to the bottom of

724
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 1: the run, catches a nice fish, like a sixteen pounds

725
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: he run brown trop and he circles all the way

726
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 1: back and he gets in front of me to do

727
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: it again. And I remember fishing that when I was

728
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: living and going to school and steel that fishing in

729
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: northern California. I mean, they have these lineups, you know

730
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 1: that there was really strict. You know, everybody in the

731
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: lineup was a phenomenal cast. They're all great fisherman. If

732
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: you went down, caught a fish and circled up and

733
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 1: got in front of him, it'd be time for an obituary.

734
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: He just I looked at I thought, is that rude?

735
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 1: Or is he stupid or uh, you know, I couldn't

736
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 1: or greedy. I mean, I couldn't couldn't figure out. So,

737
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I thought, this is I had the moment

738
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: of being this sort of out of body experience. Am

739
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 1: I with a lunatic? I like reading your short stories

740
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: a lot um. If I had to pick one thing

741
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 1: of the of the all the kinds of work you do,

742
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: from novels, short stories, nonfiction essays, you know, I like

743
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: your short stories the most personally, I do too. But

744
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: why are the characters, Um, why are your characters in

745
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:47,919
Speaker 1: your fiction so different and at wits end and kind

746
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:52,879
Speaker 1: of disheveled and their personal lives? Then when you read

747
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 1: you about you and your friends in your life, it's

748
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: it's like a completely different worldview. Well I'm suppressing the truth.

749
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, I don't know, but I mean

750
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: I think that especially short Fisher depends on a sort

751
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:10,240
Speaker 1: of a crisis atmosphere. I mean it has. In a

752
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: effective short story, a lot should be at stake, you know,

753
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: it should not be the quotidian day to day lives

754
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 1: of people, you know, unless unless it's a Ray Carbor story.

755
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: Um so, I I mean a narrative. Fictional narrative is

756
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 1: kind of driven by conflict in a way. Um, and

757
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: you know it's Henry James said, it only has one

758
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: responsibility and that is to be interesting, you know, and

759
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 1: that's it's not the same level of interest that you

760
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: have and nonfiction, you know, where it's fact driven or

761
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: information driven and stuff like that. It's a very different

762
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: kind of atmosphere. So it calls on different things. I

763
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 1: think then that sort of stuff you would describe in

764
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: your life as a hotter or officierman or all those

765
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: other things, although those could be part of it. I'm

766
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 1: reading this. Some just got this book UH called um

767
00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: uh Fishing in Paradise, SOI going to title something like that.

768
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,800
Speaker 1: But it's about a guy who lived in Sweden during

769
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: the period the fishing. He's a fishing fanatic. It was

770
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 1: during the period when the Swedish dream of a sort

771
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,399
Speaker 1: of utopian society. That's the title fishing in Utopia, when

772
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 1: the utopia dream and Scandinavia was still intact before the

773
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 1: big waves of immigration. All the things that have changed

774
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:33,200
Speaker 1: that happened, and he's gone back as a fisherman. But

775
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 1: he's really an observer of what has happened to this

776
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 1: utopian fantasy of the Swedish people and how it's changing everything.

777
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: So the idea, I find this a very appealing idea,

778
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:50,959
Speaker 1: The idea of of UH finding a way these things

779
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: that we do impinge on other things that are less recreational,

780
00:46:55,800 --> 00:47:00,959
Speaker 1: for example, than what we're talking about, or less UH

781
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 1: focused on solip systemically focused on the things we want

782
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: to provide for ourselves as individualized, individualized characters known as

783
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 1: the great hunter or the Great fisherman or something like that,

784
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 1: and there was a little bit broader view of how

785
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: these activities uh illuminate other things. And so I just

786
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,280
Speaker 1: got this book and I just started reading. It's very interesting,

787
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 1: kind of kind of way to do it. Uh in

788
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: you your characters also have uh an incredibly dim view

789
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 1: of marriage. You have a dim view of marriage. And

790
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,680
Speaker 1: it's funny because the thing that makes it okay, I

791
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: guess yeah, is that you the man is typically at

792
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: the at fault. Well that's interesting. I mean, I like

793
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 1: the idea of of faulty men. You know, that kind

794
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:55,879
Speaker 1: of feels to me. I don't know why anybody gets

795
00:47:55,880 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 1: married anymore. I mean, it seems like slightly defund institution.

796
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: So well, I mean, what what is it? I mean,

797
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: it's sort of documentation for something you do anyway, you know, uh,

798
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: And I have a checkered married history. I mean my

799
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 1: history is that I been married three times, but I've

800
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 1: now been married for forty two years to the same person,

801
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: so it's kind of a little bit of an odd thing.

802
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 1: And one of the marriages for like eight months, So, um,

803
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 1: what what goes on in an eight months marriage? Lust?

804
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: I guess yeah, I don't know acts or an accident

805
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: or rebounding or doing all those kinds of things. Uh,

806
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:41,280
Speaker 1: the background of growing up in an Irish Catholic household,

807
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: which is supposed to do you know. I mean, I

808
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 1: would never get married a second time under the current

809
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:51,439
Speaker 1: uh sort of cultural convictions. But on the other hand,

810
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: I've been in this really happy marriage for more than

811
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 1: half my life and forty two years. That's a long time.

812
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,879
Speaker 1: And uh so I've I'm not I just don't see

813
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 1: why it needs that kind of impremontor you know, of officialness. Uh.

814
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 1: Not bad. I mean, if it makes people feel more committed,

815
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 1: you know, um, then they should do it. And I

816
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 1: did it, you know um. But I don't think it

817
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:23,959
Speaker 1: has a lot of meaning anymore. And statistically, almost most

818
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: marriages in the divorce. So what does that say about it? Yeah,

819
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 1: that in and of itself, what does that say about it?

820
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 1: It's a non enduring institution. No, I think it was.

821
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: I feel that it's helpful. It's helpful because it makes

822
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 1: you take yourself seriously. Yeah, Oh, I see that's what

823
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: I felt. Yeah, I felt like, all of a sudden,

824
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: it makes you take some part of yourself more seriously

825
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 1: than he might. That well, that's a good reason to

826
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 1: do it, and I feel like it also, it's like

827
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: you're putting certain things to rest. You know, I had

828
00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 1: chasing girls, right, Yeah, at the time you spend Remember

829
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: buddy my I was talking about. He got married and

830
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 1: the next day he felt like he needed one of

831
00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 1: those old top hats from the nineteen so he could

832
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 1: like head out to work, Like he felt like he

833
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: should be grabbing his briefcase and putting his hat on

834
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 1: and getting onto the business of life now that he's married.

835
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: And he said that was the first time he ever

836
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 1: felt that way, like there was some other reason. There

837
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 1: was he had this other reason to go work. Did

838
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 1: he fall out of his eyechair? Whatever? How could? Why

839
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: are you? Have you ever been married and you're thirty

840
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: five and you're beautiful? What's going wrong here? Because you

841
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:45,359
Speaker 1: don't believe in the institution. It's you know, I think

842
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: for me. Yeah, and they need to feel healthy. Yeah, Well,

843
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: you can't apply all these criteria. You have to shoot

844
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:05,359
Speaker 1: from the hip, grant if you're gonna continue, let's put

845
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:09,400
Speaker 1: your headset on. I gave you one. I think there

846
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:12,760
Speaker 1: are a couple of situations where I could have almost

847
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,760
Speaker 1: been at that place and then you know things fell apart. Um.

848
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: Has anyone asked you to get married and you said no, no, no,

849
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 1: that hasn't happened. Um. Yeah, I don't, you know, mm hmm,

850
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:30,720
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think that wherever at and arrived

851
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,319
Speaker 1: at place really, you know, if I look back at

852
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:37,520
Speaker 1: my life past couple of years, the decade before, UM,

853
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,400
Speaker 1: there's always been a core of myself that kind of knows.

854
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 1: But a lot of other things. Do you wish you

855
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 1: would ever get married? You look forward to I want

856
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:51,320
Speaker 1: a family? I do. I do, I would like a family, UM,

857
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: But I think that before that happens, I I do

858
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 1: want to feel that the person I'm with UM is

859
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:02,839
Speaker 1: committed to teaming up with me in in doing that.

860
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:14,879
Speaker 1: Have you ever considered a starter hubby starter? UM? No, No,

861
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if I have. UM. I think I

862
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:21,239
Speaker 1: think I have maybe some feelings similarly to what you

863
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:25,399
Speaker 1: have around marriage as an institution. And I think that

864
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 1: or I've come to a place now with the experiences

865
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 1: that I've had that I think, Uh, to be in

866
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:35,759
Speaker 1: partnership with someone is a choice that you make every day, UM,

867
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: and that you it is you renew that every day

868
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 1: for as long as the both of you do no no,

869
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: then you're wasting all kinds of time. Why because that's

870
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:48,479
Speaker 1: I mean, do you feel like you do you feel

871
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:50,360
Speaker 1: like you stay in something, I like, force yourself to

872
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 1: be part part of the beauty of it is. This

873
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 1: part of the beauty of it is and not the

874
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: whole thing. I'm not I'm not trying to like trivialize marriage,

875
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 1: but like a nice thing about marriage is that you

876
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: make a set of decisions. You have a lot of

877
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 1: time to think about those decisions, right, there's a hundred

878
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,840
Speaker 1: ways to get out of it, and you add it

879
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 1: all up in your head and you decide that this

880
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:15,799
Speaker 1: is what I'll do. And then at that moment you

881
00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:20,720
Speaker 1: stop pretending that you didn't make that decision. It becomes

882
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 1: like the thing that you did and the thing that

883
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 1: you now do, And then you turn yourself to the

884
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:27,359
Speaker 1: other ship in life, and you don't wake up every

885
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 1: day being like, am I really committed to this person?

886
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 1: You just decided that's that that's where you're at, and

887
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 1: then that part of that question is gone, and all

888
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 1: the energy you'd apply to that question you apply to

889
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 1: other stuff. And I don't think that most people go

890
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 1: through that, um, the precursor that you describe, they all do. Yeah,

891
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 1: I agree. Okay, I gotta tell I gotta tell you

892
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 1: my approach to my very successful forty one or forty

893
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 1: two year marriage. You can all learn from this. Please

894
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 1: fall completely silent. I want to reverence silence. Ready. I

895
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:05,520
Speaker 1: was lying on the floor of a bar and Key

896
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:11,879
Speaker 1: West with a cocktail in my hand, and my soon

897
00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: to be wife walked by, and she had this heavy

898
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: Alabama accent and I heard her talking, and I said,

899
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 1: raised my glass and I said, will you marry me

900
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 1: and take me to your southern mansion? And she said, well,

901
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 1: I don't have a merrit mansion, but sure I'll marry you.

902
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 1: And we've been together for forty two years. That's how

903
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 1: much that That's how much forethought went into this. So,

904
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 1: like I say, I've I've fought them through before they failed. Uh.

905
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 1: I never meant to move to Montana. Everything that ever

906
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:56,240
Speaker 1: happened to be had was an accident. So this rashi

907
00:54:56,320 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: asinutive approach, right, it's gonna it's gonna blow up like

908
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 1: an exploding cigar. Right. It's like, if you intellectually make

909
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 1: a decision to be a certain way into the future.

910
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:18,759
Speaker 1: Then what if a disconnect arises between what you decide

911
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: intellectually you're going to be with who you organically feel

912
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:29,439
Speaker 1: you become based on your experiences day by day. Yeah,

913
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 1: well I like to think, Okay, let me put it

914
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: this way. If I got out of it, I like

915
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 1: to think that I would do it as carefully and

916
00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:43,360
Speaker 1: with as much thought as I got into it. The

917
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:49,359
Speaker 1: key to the whole thing is comedy. I mean, if

918
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 1: you if you like to laugh, and I do. My

919
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 1: wife likes to laugh. We laugh all day long, one

920
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:58,960
Speaker 1: thing or another. And we could quit going to cuttings.

921
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 1: We had people say to a because we had a

922
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 1: little living quarters in our trailer. They said, we don't

923
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 1: know how to go to these rodeos anymore because we

924
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 1: could always hear the laughter out of your trailer at

925
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 1: the first of daylight. And uh so that's really you know,

926
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 1: because you have inevitably I mean, I don't know how

927
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 1: early on you are in your marriage, but they're full

928
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,879
Speaker 1: of conflict one way or another. Yeah, man, you feel

929
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 1: like kids, um, we're a burden or a stress on?

930
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:26,800
Speaker 1: Like were you able to keep that level of laughter

931
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,319
Speaker 1: or was there a little bit of a low spot

932
00:56:29,360 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 1: as you sort of had to do. It adds to

933
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,239
Speaker 1: the potential, it adds to the potential for conflicts. So

934
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 1: it tests your other resources, you know, I mean, because

935
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 1: you see you feel differently about what they should do.

936
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 1: And now that uh um, it's uh, you know, it's

937
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: unusual because my I had children and my wife had children.

938
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 1: We got married and they became a sort of amalgamated

939
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 1: family and that worked out great. But Lori's daughter was

940
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 1: like five years old. She's fifty now, but she was

941
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:01,240
Speaker 1: five years old and we first got together. And actually

942
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: my stepdaughter is the one I'm the closest to. Um.

943
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 1: Uh So it's all so unpredictable. I mean, if if

944
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:11,800
Speaker 1: I've learned anything in life is that it is so unpredictable.

945
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:15,360
Speaker 1: And it's a great mistake to imagine that it is predictable,

946
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:20,960
Speaker 1: because then you start imposing this kind of template of

947
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:24,920
Speaker 1: what you imagine to be your control of over future events,

948
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 1: which is nonexistent. Um. It's not the same as analyzing

949
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:34,439
Speaker 1: the stock market. I mean, it's a it's much much

950
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 1: much more myriad, and it's but you just have to

951
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 1: you know, you have to you have to be good

952
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 1: on your feet. You know, you have to have a

953
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 1: sense of humor and be really good on your feet.

954
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 1: And you have to have a highly qualified ego. What

955
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 1: do you mean by that, Well, you don't. You have

956
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 1: to lose that part of yourself that operates out in

957
00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 1: the world where you really need to win a lot

958
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 1: oh um. And you have to have for it to

959
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 1: work over long term. You have to have a really

960
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 1: highly developed you have to train yourself with this. You

961
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 1: have to have a highly developed sense of fairness. You

962
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 1: just have to think about fairness all the time and

963
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: those kinds of things. Have you given up on or

964
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 1: did you ever tally wins and losses in marriage? I

965
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 1: do that, yeah, and I try him to quit, but

966
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:32,680
Speaker 1: I do do it. Yeah. I don't think I've done that.

967
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 1: I mean, like other people's marriage. No, no, no, no.

968
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 1: I mean I'll be like, wow, I gave in on

969
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 1: something that was important to me, and I'm like, okay,

970
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 1: never mind, and I remember that, and then I'm very

971
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 1: aware of it the next time. Oh, like your old one. Yeah,

972
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 1: and I'll be like bank account. I'll be like, well, yeah,

973
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:58,600
Speaker 1: but I professional help. Yeah, it's not gonna work for you.

974
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 1: Like I gave up the one thing. But then so

975
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 1: I feel like I should get this thing because you won.

976
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:09,080
Speaker 1: Oh I think you do. Do that actually a little bit, Um,

977
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:16,040
Speaker 1: we'll make formal deals to be like, I'll stop talking

978
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 1: about this. Yeah if if I get this win, Yeah,

979
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: I seriously bring negotiating. Yeah. You know you know. The

980
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:26,760
Speaker 1: one I hate is when you say, when you finally

981
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 1: make a point, you're right about something, and the other

982
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 1: person says fine, I hate fine, Yeah, you wanted more

983
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 1: of a like you know what, you're right. It's like

984
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 1: I was told this woman who was in some kind

985
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 1: of relationship. I said, you know, when the guy tells

986
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 1: you that you're amazing, it's over. So are you Are

987
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 1: you familiar with Jerry Mills and the idea he keep

988
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 1: popularize this idea that about how to describe Southern literature, Oh,

989
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 1: the mule theory and the dead mule theory. And he's like,

990
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:05,640
Speaker 1: how do you tell? Like that was like his defining

991
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 1: and he broughte this very spirited essay about the test

992
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 1: the litmus test of Southern literature has a dead mule

993
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 1: in it. In Um, In reading your work, I find that, uh,

994
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:31,439
Speaker 1: there's uh quite often there is our activities around irrigation always. Oh,

995
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 1: there wasn't a lot of that because someone's ears like

996
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 1: someone's irrigating, carrying irrigating you. I was the irrigator, and

997
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 1: I hated it. It's really something the degree to which

998
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 1: when you're describing, like someone driving down a highway, a

999
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 1: thing that they're likely to notice there's some aspect of irrigation.

1000
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 1: I've never met anybody that likes that job. Nailed it.

1001
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:01,919
Speaker 1: It's just the worst job. This is the worst job.

1002
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 1: In fact, about five years ago I managed to lease

1003
01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 1: the hay fields to somebody who liked to irrigate. I mean,

1004
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:11,960
Speaker 1: if you have a ranch, if you have a ranch,

1005
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 1: if you have a ranch, everybody wants the grass and

1006
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 1: nobody wants the irrigation. And uh so, you know, if

1007
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:22,120
Speaker 1: you're fathing, if you're phasing out, as I've been for

1008
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 1: probably ten years, you're always trying to find somebody wants

1009
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:27,400
Speaker 1: some component of what you've been doing. Oh, I'll take

1010
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:31,360
Speaker 1: the grass or yeah, and nobody wants to fix the fence.

1011
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:34,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I have all these little rules get cowboys.

1012
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 1: I fixed fence, but I don't build fence. Um, you know,

1013
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 1: I you know, I like working cattle, but I don't

1014
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 1: want to irrigate, and we did a lot of that

1015
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: ourselves for so long. But the part that I really

1016
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 1: resented was the irrigation. I mean, we had one point

1017
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:57,840
Speaker 1: flood of irrigation. Flood of irrigation. Yeah, we had. We

1018
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:00,520
Speaker 1: had a gated pipe eventually, which help a little bit.

1019
01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 1: But we ran a lot of cattle. At one time,

1020
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:06,439
Speaker 1: I had a lot of land leased north of round

1021
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 1: Up and we ran hearing steers out there. Oh you

1022
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 1: were that heavy into running cattle that you releasing pasture

1023
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 1: land had thirty thousand acres at least. Were you writing

1024
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:22,800
Speaker 1: then too much? Not much? Yeah, I was kind of.

1025
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a very intense for a period of

1026
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 1: time and then you ship, but then you've a lot

1027
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,080
Speaker 1: of free time. And oh so you like, I didn't

1028
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:32,920
Speaker 1: know you really really threw down and became that, but

1029
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 1: you were a rancher. Yeah, yeah, pretty much. Well, I

1030
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 1: you know, I mean I remember I first made some money.

1031
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 1: I bought a place in uh in uh Paradise Valley

1032
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:45,440
Speaker 1: wasn't very big, but we had we always kept a

1033
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:47,920
Speaker 1: lot of roping steers around because we're always rodeoing. And

1034
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 1: then we then we would lease some ground, and I

1035
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:53,160
Speaker 1: didn't really know what to do with the ranch. I

1036
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:55,840
Speaker 1: mean that was in my twenties. I've never had that background.

1037
01:02:55,920 --> 01:03:00,280
Speaker 1: And and uh, and I had a hired man, and uh,

1038
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:03,720
Speaker 1: I knew this guy, Nevada rancher, old time Nevada ranch.

1039
01:03:03,800 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 1: He said, the main thing is to go to bed

1040
01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 1: at eight o'clock, get up at four, and then whoever

1041
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:09,920
Speaker 1: works for you'll feel guilty all day long. They'll do

1042
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 1: anything you ask him to do. Then the guy used

1043
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:16,320
Speaker 1: to live in this ranch to get up at four

1044
01:03:16,360 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 1: and go into the kitchen, turned the light on so

1045
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 1: the neighbors would think that he was at work and

1046
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 1: go back to bed. About did you enjoy doing being

1047
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:30,880
Speaker 1: the cattle business? Did I? Did you enjoy? Yeah? I got.

1048
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 1: I was infatuated with the whole thing because I had

1049
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 1: a girlfriend in high school who who's uh was from

1050
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:40,040
Speaker 1: originally from Wyoming, and her dad gave me a summer jobs.

1051
01:03:40,080 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 1: So I started going to Wyoming when I was like

1052
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:48,400
Speaker 1: sixteen years old. Um tried to be a cowboy. So

1053
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 1: I wanted to, you know, from that point on, any

1054
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:53,080
Speaker 1: time I was not actually in school, I was out

1055
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:57,640
Speaker 1: here and uh, I'm well over that, you know, but

1056
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:01,400
Speaker 1: it was I really joy it, really loved it, you know,

1057
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 1: I was really caught up in that. Uh. Kept a

1058
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:10,000
Speaker 1: lot of horses, went to ropings between here in California,

1059
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 1: and I really love the culture. I still kind of

1060
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:16,160
Speaker 1: like it. Where I really like it is where it

1061
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:19,439
Speaker 1: really is intact, you know, in West Texas is where

1062
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 1: it is. I mean those, uh, the real full time

1063
01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 1: cowboys down there. They'll die poor and they have, but

1064
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:32,840
Speaker 1: they have incredible skills, um inherited skills, and great reverence

1065
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:36,840
Speaker 1: for their heritage, you know, and it makes them indifferent

1066
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:40,840
Speaker 1: to the fact that they'll never own anything, um just

1067
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 1: what they've got a trailer, stock tailor, a couple of horses,

1068
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 1: a couple of saddles for ropes, and they're great and

1069
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 1: they have a kind of a new era. And that

1070
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,200
Speaker 1: ranches down there really can't keep full time help. It's

1071
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:57,959
Speaker 1: not economical to do that. So once a year they'll

1072
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:01,200
Speaker 1: hire these guys that come out, come out with the

1073
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 1: horse trailers, unload all their horses, gather all the rantriable, doctor,

1074
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:06,920
Speaker 1: all the cattle, brand everybody, and they're going to get

1075
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:11,280
Speaker 1: a bill. Uh. So that's kept them going for another burst.

1076
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:14,920
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that makes it that

1077
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:19,959
Speaker 1: other writers who write about the West and who write

1078
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 1: about people who work the land, Um, the reason they

1079
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:25,520
Speaker 1: can't that I don't think they'll ever be able to

1080
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 1: catch you, is because you have to read your work

1081
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 1: and read it and read it and read it to

1082
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 1: find an unbelievable moment. I'm sensitive to the stuff where

1083
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:44,040
Speaker 1: if I'm reading about someone, um, when I find that

1084
01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 1: they do something or some part of their life or

1085
01:05:47,200 --> 01:05:52,520
Speaker 1: something they're doing at work feels phony. Uh it really,

1086
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:55,280
Speaker 1: it just puts me off. I was watching the show

1087
01:05:55,280 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 1: with my wife. She she was watching the show and

1088
01:05:57,600 --> 01:06:02,520
Speaker 1: there was a guy who is supposedly a carpenter working

1089
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 1: in this drama, and they had a carpenter in the

1090
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 1: home doing some carpentry work, and as the cameras on him,

1091
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:15,560
Speaker 1: it's clear that not only is he not a carpenter,

1092
01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 1: but no one involved on the set, the writer like,

1093
01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:25,720
Speaker 1: no one had any idea what this individual would be

1094
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: doing in a moment of him pretending to be a carpenter.

1095
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:36,080
Speaker 1: And it's that's like, those glimpses are painful. But in

1096
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:38,560
Speaker 1: reading your stuff, there's one exception I'll tell you about later.

1097
01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 1: And reading your stuff, um, no one ever does anything

1098
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 1: that's not just totally believable. Another person who's really good.

1099
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:52,720
Speaker 1: I feel as Corman McCarthy, but it's so fantastical and

1100
01:06:52,800 --> 01:06:56,560
Speaker 1: it's and it becomes show off where Court McCarthy likes

1101
01:06:56,600 --> 01:07:01,440
Speaker 1: to show you things he learned about in exhaustive research

1102
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 1: and integrate him in and it's show offie. But your

1103
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:08,240
Speaker 1: stuff about what people are working or what they're out doing,

1104
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:12,280
Speaker 1: or what business they're involved in, or how they made money,

1105
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:17,120
Speaker 1: how they lost money, what they did yesterday. Every time

1106
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:20,439
Speaker 1: I read it, I'm like, yes, oh, good, well that's great,

1107
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:23,560
Speaker 1: and I hope it stays true. Oh it is like

1108
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:26,440
Speaker 1: and I always wonder It's like part of the interests

1109
01:07:26,440 --> 01:07:28,400
Speaker 1: of mine to meet you too, is always wondered, be like,

1110
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 1: how does he know all that stuff where it's not

1111
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:36,480
Speaker 1: made up? There's like the story is made up, but no,

1112
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:40,479
Speaker 1: the parts of the story are all so perfect. That's great. Well,

1113
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:43,880
Speaker 1: you know, I've always one of the things I feel

1114
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:47,640
Speaker 1: maybe separates what I want to do are the people

1115
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 1: that I admire want to do um in writing is

1116
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:57,160
Speaker 1: that Uh. I always felt that your writing should come

1117
01:07:57,200 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 1: from the zeitgeist, you know, the life you lead. I mean,

1118
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:03,720
Speaker 1: if you think of Fitzgerald or Falkner or having Away,

1119
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:05,480
Speaker 1: they're kind of writing out of their lives. Well, if

1120
01:08:05,520 --> 01:08:07,440
Speaker 1: I read I read lit Hub all the time, you know,

1121
01:08:07,480 --> 01:08:09,800
Speaker 1: in the morning, and those people are saying, well, I'm

1122
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:14,800
Speaker 1: researching something about you know, life in the in a

1123
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 1: isis concentration camp. I've never been there, or I remember

1124
01:08:18,280 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 1: this book. I got kind of in trouble over this book.

1125
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:23,639
Speaker 1: And when the National Book Award was called a Letter

1126
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:27,920
Speaker 1: from Letters from Ecuador, it was kind of modernist book.

1127
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:30,559
Speaker 1: It was totally boring, and it was I got into

1128
01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:32,679
Speaker 1: trouble because I did an interview when there were five

1129
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:36,280
Speaker 1: finalists for the National Book Award and they're all five

1130
01:08:36,479 --> 01:08:39,240
Speaker 1: avant garde women living in New York City. And I said,

1131
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:41,640
Speaker 1: and I said to somebody in an interview with the

1132
01:08:41,640 --> 01:08:44,080
Speaker 1: New Yorker, I said, it's a big country. Didn't they

1133
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:48,120
Speaker 1: find somebody who had any had any uh any ability

1134
01:08:48,439 --> 01:08:51,439
Speaker 1: out there the fifties States? Just these five women in

1135
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:54,200
Speaker 1: the anyway, everybody blew up. It was a night that's

1136
01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:56,360
Speaker 1: on him a bit you need to get anyway, it

1137
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 1: was horrible. It lasted for a long time as a

1138
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:01,320
Speaker 1: scandal because there was a gender component to it. That

1139
01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:05,840
Speaker 1: was a gender component to it. And the the woman

1140
01:09:05,880 --> 01:09:09,639
Speaker 1: who wrote the wrote the wrote the award winning book

1141
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:14,240
Speaker 1: which nobody wants to read. It's unreadable. Her name is

1142
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:16,280
Speaker 1: thinking of it now, but the name of the book

1143
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:19,360
Speaker 1: has letter from Ecuador, and she she said that she

1144
01:09:19,400 --> 01:09:21,479
Speaker 1: wrote this book and a lot of it takes place

1145
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:23,840
Speaker 1: in Ecuador. She's very proud of the fact that she'd

1146
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:29,639
Speaker 1: never been there. Yeah, and uh so we get kind

1147
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:32,519
Speaker 1: of right now because I keep track of a lot

1148
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 1: of new writers, you know, I'd like reading up and

1149
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:39,400
Speaker 1: coming writers. It persuades me that this game will last,

1150
01:09:39,479 --> 01:09:41,599
Speaker 1: you know, because there's so many good writers coming along,

1151
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:47,200
Speaker 1: the really good, right young writers. And our women and

1152
01:09:47,880 --> 01:09:51,120
Speaker 1: like Testa most Fager one of my favorites. They're just

1153
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:56,320
Speaker 1: some wonderful uh uh women writing. The reason is they're

1154
01:09:56,360 --> 01:09:59,519
Speaker 1: not as oppressed by political correctness as the men are.

1155
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:03,479
Speaker 1: And they're very rare, very they're very i mean, they're

1156
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:06,639
Speaker 1: just they just lay about themselves with a broad sword.

1157
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:08,679
Speaker 1: I mean, they do any say anything they want to say.

1158
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:12,800
Speaker 1: And it was all that's quite it's kind of invasive,

1159
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:15,799
Speaker 1: kind of and it's really tense and full of interesting stuff.

1160
01:10:16,200 --> 01:10:19,639
Speaker 1: Whereas the men are so afraid of saying something wrong

1161
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:25,200
Speaker 1: about people who are overweight or uh, you know, unattractive

1162
01:10:25,240 --> 01:10:29,120
Speaker 1: people somebody. They there's a kind of timidity about literary

1163
01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:31,519
Speaker 1: fiction by young men that the women don't have to

1164
01:10:31,560 --> 01:10:33,479
Speaker 1: deal with, and as a result, the men are not

1165
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:36,120
Speaker 1: very interesting at this point in time. Yeah, you see

1166
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:39,799
Speaker 1: it in comedy too, Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, female comics

1167
01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:43,599
Speaker 1: caught loose. Absolutely. You mentioned earlier Key West you met

1168
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:48,880
Speaker 1: your wife, and Key West you were one of the

1169
01:10:48,920 --> 01:10:51,479
Speaker 1: areas like this kind of fixation we had when I

1170
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:53,479
Speaker 1: say we that my brother's and nine and guys we

1171
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:55,960
Speaker 1: hung out with when we were in our kind of

1172
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:59,640
Speaker 1: in our twenties, like the fish a lot, and we

1173
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:03,320
Speaker 1: became really aware of um that we had missed the

1174
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:08,400
Speaker 1: boat on Key West, like something had happened in the

1175
01:11:08,520 --> 01:11:12,879
Speaker 1: culture of fishing, in literature and whatnot. Something had happened

1176
01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:16,960
Speaker 1: in Key West and it had died. Yeah. Can you

1177
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:20,639
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about your experiences in Key West

1178
01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:22,960
Speaker 1: and what brought you down there and the fishing and

1179
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:28,200
Speaker 1: what you feel, um, what you feel died? Well, yeah,

1180
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:30,040
Speaker 1: I can a little bit. I mean I went down there.

1181
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:35,760
Speaker 1: It was a really uh it was a really virgil situation. Um.

1182
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:39,320
Speaker 1: I went down there for for two reasons, three reasons.

1183
01:11:39,360 --> 01:11:41,639
Speaker 1: One was I was a sort of a bookish boy

1184
01:11:41,680 --> 01:11:45,400
Speaker 1: and I was aware of its uh literary history. Secondly,

1185
01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:48,240
Speaker 1: it was a rundown cheap place to live, I mean

1186
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:50,679
Speaker 1: boat to Wall Street, which is one shop after another,

1187
01:11:50,680 --> 01:11:52,479
Speaker 1: and it was boarded up when I moved on there.

1188
01:11:52,960 --> 01:11:55,439
Speaker 1: There's no if your parents came from visit, there was

1189
01:11:55,479 --> 01:11:58,719
Speaker 1: really no place to take him to dinner. There's one place,

1190
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:03,200
Speaker 1: the A and B Lobster was terrible. And I had

1191
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:06,760
Speaker 1: the only skiff there. Yeah, I read that once. Yeah,

1192
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:09,120
Speaker 1: I think it was one of your essays. Yeah, you

1193
01:12:09,160 --> 01:12:11,280
Speaker 1: mentioned that at the time you had the only flat

1194
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:15,439
Speaker 1: skiff in Key West. What year was that, I think

1195
01:12:15,520 --> 01:12:21,360
Speaker 1: sixty nine something like that. And um, so it was

1196
01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:23,680
Speaker 1: a kind of uh it was partly a sort of

1197
01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:26,479
Speaker 1: hippie brigadune, you know what I mean. Because it was

1198
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:29,080
Speaker 1: a cheap place to live. It felt like it wasn't

1199
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:33,040
Speaker 1: in the United States, and you know it was you know,

1200
01:12:33,160 --> 01:12:37,320
Speaker 1: half the people there were uh spoke Spanish or they

1201
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:39,720
Speaker 1: were conk sin spoke, you know, spoke this kind of

1202
01:12:40,960 --> 01:12:45,720
Speaker 1: creole conk talk. And it was very interesting place. I mean,

1203
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:48,040
Speaker 1: I was just loved it so much. It was such

1204
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:50,960
Speaker 1: a great place to be. And then in addition to that,

1205
01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:55,240
Speaker 1: I had a friend who was an outstanding traditional guide

1206
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:58,439
Speaker 1: who would who would give me a couple of his

1207
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:01,840
Speaker 1: clients that he didn't on a fish, usually because they

1208
01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:06,360
Speaker 1: didn't know how to fish anyway. That was guiding. Those

1209
01:13:06,400 --> 01:13:09,320
Speaker 1: people gave me a minimal living. And then I had

1210
01:13:09,320 --> 01:13:11,960
Speaker 1: a little contract with Sports Illustrated. I think I had

1211
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:14,880
Speaker 1: to do six pieces a year for them. Between that

1212
01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 1: and my two days a week deal, I I had

1213
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:19,960
Speaker 1: a bare bones living and I could rent a rent

1214
01:13:19,960 --> 01:13:23,800
Speaker 1: a place cheaply and just live my life. And it

1215
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:26,680
Speaker 1: was just a great place to be. And and I

1216
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:28,680
Speaker 1: know a lot of people who were there then I

1217
01:13:28,720 --> 01:13:31,880
Speaker 1: still know them, and we all agree that it was

1218
01:13:31,960 --> 01:13:37,280
Speaker 1: like it was like the thing that the best part

1219
01:13:37,360 --> 01:13:40,439
Speaker 1: of our lives could never be replicated anywhere. It was

1220
01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:43,519
Speaker 1: just there's nothing like it ever anywhere, never will be again.

1221
01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:52,160
Speaker 1: Um uh. And that's the feeling that I don't have exclusively.

1222
01:13:52,160 --> 01:13:53,840
Speaker 1: I mean, everybody I know who was there I just

1223
01:13:53,880 --> 01:13:58,840
Speaker 1: heard from. I had. I had a friend, it's kind

1224
01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:03,000
Speaker 1: of an artist, and he was smuggling dope. Everybody's smuggling dope.

1225
01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:09,080
Speaker 1: It was, you know, it was smuggling sail boats and

1226
01:14:09,439 --> 01:14:13,120
Speaker 1: acoustic guitars was sort of the basic equipment for life

1227
01:14:13,120 --> 01:14:17,080
Speaker 1: at Key West. And there were some very courageous guys

1228
01:14:17,120 --> 01:14:19,040
Speaker 1: that were going to South America, you know, and bringing

1229
01:14:19,120 --> 01:14:22,920
Speaker 1: bring back loads of pot. And it was considered you know,

1230
01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:26,240
Speaker 1: it wasn't considered a grave thing if you if you

1231
01:14:26,280 --> 01:14:29,960
Speaker 1: get caught. Yeah, And I had two good friends that

1232
01:14:30,040 --> 01:14:33,880
Speaker 1: were bringing back a load of dope from Carla Hana

1233
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:38,000
Speaker 1: and they hunder ten foot coast guard cut her pull

1234
01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:42,240
Speaker 1: alongside of him, and so they took a chainsaw and

1235
01:14:42,240 --> 01:14:44,439
Speaker 1: they put a hole in the bottle of the boat

1236
01:14:44,439 --> 01:14:47,160
Speaker 1: and sank it, and the coast guard boarded and put

1237
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:48,960
Speaker 1: a pump on it, pumped it back out, and they

1238
01:14:49,479 --> 01:14:52,000
Speaker 1: and they and they were two great guys. They were

1239
01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:54,720
Speaker 1: wonderful carpenters. So they went up to Eggland Air Force Base,

1240
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:58,040
Speaker 1: which was sort of a minimum security prison. They had

1241
01:14:58,080 --> 01:15:01,800
Speaker 1: to make roll top death for the warden and all

1242
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:04,439
Speaker 1: the politicians up there and you know said, you know,

1243
01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:06,880
Speaker 1: go back to what you were doing. Well, one of

1244
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:09,280
Speaker 1: those guys, now he just you know, because now he's

1245
01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:11,479
Speaker 1: a felon, so he had to do other things, so

1246
01:15:11,520 --> 01:15:14,759
Speaker 1: he moved to the Bahamas. He's got this fantastic fishing

1247
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:18,240
Speaker 1: lodge on the Bahamas, he's got the he's got two

1248
01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:22,120
Speaker 1: great restaurants in a bookstore and a tackle shop at

1249
01:15:22,120 --> 01:15:24,720
Speaker 1: the US that he runs from Afar. You know, he said, well,

1250
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:26,800
Speaker 1: if I'm a felon, I gotta do the best I can.

1251
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:29,960
Speaker 1: And there are a couple of guys like that who

1252
01:15:30,040 --> 01:15:32,080
Speaker 1: still remained and named over the Missouri. You know, they

1253
01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:34,400
Speaker 1: couldn't guide anymore because they were felling, so they just

1254
01:15:34,479 --> 01:15:37,760
Speaker 1: opened a big business. They have homes and belize and

1255
01:15:37,800 --> 01:15:42,360
Speaker 1: they were forced by this limitation on their options something

1256
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:45,640
Speaker 1: even more creative. But your main draw Key West was

1257
01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:49,200
Speaker 1: the fishing, right, unbelievable fishing. I mean, you have the Gulf.

1258
01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:53,320
Speaker 1: It's the head of the Gulf Stream, so you have

1259
01:15:53,400 --> 01:15:57,720
Speaker 1: this phenomenal depth of species there, and then you have

1260
01:15:57,760 --> 01:15:59,640
Speaker 1: the Gulf of Mexico, which is a whole different kind

1261
01:15:59,640 --> 01:16:01,280
Speaker 1: of fish. You have the Gulf Stream, and you have

1262
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:06,000
Speaker 1: the Atlantic fishery. Um, it's very intricate, fascinating to try

1263
01:16:06,040 --> 01:16:09,439
Speaker 1: to figure out. We didn't have GPS, we didn't have

1264
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:15,439
Speaker 1: cell phones, we didn't have online tide information. Uh, and

1265
01:16:15,479 --> 01:16:18,200
Speaker 1: you had to convert everything like you get you get

1266
01:16:18,200 --> 01:16:22,799
Speaker 1: a government tide book that Miami would be your closest information.

1267
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:26,880
Speaker 1: You had to convert everything and like what the delays are? Yeah,

1268
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:29,200
Speaker 1: and the delays were very different from the Gulf side

1269
01:16:29,200 --> 01:16:31,240
Speaker 1: from Atlantic sided. They only might be a mile or

1270
01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:39,800
Speaker 1: two apart, completely different tides, a difference of hours hours. Uh,

1271
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:44,160
Speaker 1: throughout throughout your life. Of because you've been around and

1272
01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:46,599
Speaker 1: you've explored so much, do you have this do you

1273
01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:51,200
Speaker 1: have this ongoing feeling that that um places are ending

1274
01:16:51,280 --> 01:16:55,880
Speaker 1: all the time? Well, yeah, but do you feel like

1275
01:16:55,880 --> 01:16:59,360
Speaker 1: the American West is like has ended? Well, it's very

1276
01:16:59,600 --> 01:17:04,160
Speaker 1: you know, I no, not really. I mean I probably

1277
01:17:04,200 --> 01:17:07,000
Speaker 1: that what I struggled with understanding in my fiction is

1278
01:17:07,040 --> 01:17:09,120
Speaker 1: to try to figure out how it's moving on, because

1279
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:11,240
Speaker 1: when I got to Key West in the sixties, there

1280
01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:13,240
Speaker 1: were people moving out because they thought it was ruined.

1281
01:17:14,479 --> 01:17:17,080
Speaker 1: When I left left there in seventy eight, that we're

1282
01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:20,599
Speaker 1: quick going there in sight, I thought I was sure

1283
01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:23,360
Speaker 1: it was done. And I know all these people that

1284
01:17:23,439 --> 01:17:25,200
Speaker 1: have moved there since then, I just think it's been

1285
01:17:25,200 --> 01:17:27,840
Speaker 1: the greatest lives and and and that's going to happen

1286
01:17:27,880 --> 01:17:32,920
Speaker 1: here too. Well, is this is not gonna be uh,

1287
01:17:32,960 --> 01:17:37,200
Speaker 1: you know, the imagery, the vision we have in Montana

1288
01:17:37,240 --> 01:17:38,840
Speaker 1: is not the same as it once was. I mean

1289
01:17:38,880 --> 01:17:40,840
Speaker 1: it was when I got here in the sixties and

1290
01:17:40,920 --> 01:17:44,120
Speaker 1: not much had changed. I mean, my neighbors were all

1291
01:17:44,320 --> 01:17:48,720
Speaker 1: old family ranchers, you know, they were They were not polarized.

1292
01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:50,639
Speaker 1: You know, I was a hippie. That's so long hair?

1293
01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:52,240
Speaker 1: You know, they were just why you get your hair

1294
01:17:52,320 --> 01:17:54,360
Speaker 1: long while girls like it? You know, Oh, well that's

1295
01:17:54,360 --> 01:18:00,600
Speaker 1: a good idea. And and uh, you know some of

1296
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:06,040
Speaker 1: the my rancher neighbors were born in the eight hundreds. Yeah,

1297
01:18:06,080 --> 01:18:14,200
Speaker 1: you know, guy board in nine still ranching. Um. Then

1298
01:18:14,200 --> 01:18:17,759
Speaker 1: it could kind of polarized us against them insiders I'll start,

1299
01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:20,320
Speaker 1: you know, natives, non natives that could. That went on

1300
01:18:20,439 --> 01:18:22,000
Speaker 1: for a while and we're kind of evolving out of

1301
01:18:22,040 --> 01:18:24,840
Speaker 1: that now because there's so many that the what do

1302
01:18:24,920 --> 01:18:29,040
Speaker 1: they call it the attrition rate in Montana, The turnover

1303
01:18:29,120 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 1: rates has been very high. I'm not sure it's as

1304
01:18:31,479 --> 01:18:33,120
Speaker 1: high as it used to be, but it was always

1305
01:18:33,200 --> 01:18:37,120
Speaker 1: very high. People are always arriving at departing was part

1306
01:18:37,160 --> 01:18:40,920
Speaker 1: of it. Do you feel as a writer that you're

1307
01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:46,559
Speaker 1: more interested in tracking the change than you are in

1308
01:18:46,760 --> 01:18:51,920
Speaker 1: lamenting or rooting for yep, Like you feel like you

1309
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:55,640
Speaker 1: can just you could almost stand back and like passively

1310
01:18:55,680 --> 01:18:58,599
Speaker 1: observed as long as you hit it, hit the nail

1311
01:18:58,600 --> 01:19:01,040
Speaker 1: on the head. Oh well, I mean I want to.

1312
01:19:02,200 --> 01:19:04,400
Speaker 1: There's a great book by Lewis Hyde that's just being

1313
01:19:04,439 --> 01:19:07,240
Speaker 1: reviewed right now about the art of forgetting. You know,

1314
01:19:07,880 --> 01:19:11,439
Speaker 1: you can't be uh, you can't be chained by your

1315
01:19:11,920 --> 01:19:15,040
Speaker 1: the past or your own past. In many ways, you

1316
01:19:15,080 --> 01:19:17,080
Speaker 1: really don't have much to say about what's going on.

1317
01:19:17,720 --> 01:19:20,680
Speaker 1: I Mean, one of the magic things about literature is

1318
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:23,040
Speaker 1: that it really is the only thing that can kind

1319
01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:27,920
Speaker 1: of capture, uh, the atmosphere of a given moment um.

1320
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:29,880
Speaker 1: You can look at the movies of the twenties, you

1321
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:33,080
Speaker 1: can read the newspapers of the nineties. You're never going

1322
01:19:33,120 --> 01:19:35,000
Speaker 1: to get the feeling for the twenties that you're gonna

1323
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:38,120
Speaker 1: get from reading the Great Gaspee. I mean those that's

1324
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:41,000
Speaker 1: the only thing that can really Literature still is the

1325
01:19:41,000 --> 01:19:43,280
Speaker 1: only thing that can really capture what it was like

1326
01:19:43,640 --> 01:19:46,040
Speaker 1: to be there at that time. And it's no good

1327
01:19:46,479 --> 01:19:52,559
Speaker 1: to be there at that time. But lamenting some other era. Um,

1328
01:19:52,680 --> 01:19:54,679
Speaker 1: but that's hard to do. I mean, it's going by

1329
01:19:54,720 --> 01:19:58,599
Speaker 1: you like clay pigeons, trying to catch up with it.

1330
01:19:58,680 --> 01:20:02,680
Speaker 1: Just what, you know, whatever, it is not easy. You

1331
01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:10,639
Speaker 1: don't write from the past too much, not much. No. Um.

1332
01:20:10,640 --> 01:20:14,360
Speaker 1: Maybe I've kind of you know, I feel I've benefited

1333
01:20:14,640 --> 01:20:16,800
Speaker 1: from the ability to kind of start over, you know.

1334
01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:19,519
Speaker 1: I mean, I wasn't very interested in living the life

1335
01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:21,160
Speaker 1: I kind of grew up with. I mean, I had

1336
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:23,560
Speaker 1: a great life as a kid, you know, but I

1337
01:20:23,800 --> 01:20:25,680
Speaker 1: didn't want to stay in the Midwest, you know, and

1338
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:29,040
Speaker 1: or stay in the southern Midwest. It seemed to be

1339
01:20:29,200 --> 01:20:33,559
Speaker 1: much going on there. And also I had a kind

1340
01:20:33,600 --> 01:20:38,880
Speaker 1: of a divided childhood because all my family lived in

1341
01:20:39,720 --> 01:20:43,400
Speaker 1: on the Massachusetts coast, you know, and I loved it

1342
01:20:43,439 --> 01:20:45,679
Speaker 1: out there, and my mother never wanted to leave there.

1343
01:20:46,320 --> 01:20:48,439
Speaker 1: So in the spring of the year, she just load

1344
01:20:48,520 --> 01:20:51,200
Speaker 1: us kids up and we lows us up in the

1345
01:20:51,200 --> 01:20:55,799
Speaker 1: car and drives back to my grandmother's falling down triple

1346
01:20:55,880 --> 01:21:01,840
Speaker 1: decker Irish ghetto house and in Fall River, Massachusetts. And

1347
01:21:01,880 --> 01:21:04,800
Speaker 1: I thought that was the greatest you know, go fish

1348
01:21:04,840 --> 01:21:07,040
Speaker 1: for stripe bass with my cousins who just left. I've

1349
01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 1: been fly fishing with my cousin Fred for sixty five years.

1350
01:21:11,360 --> 01:21:15,680
Speaker 1: We just left. We're still doing it. You guys just fishingly.

1351
01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:17,559
Speaker 1: Don't need to say a whole lot of time. We'll

1352
01:21:17,560 --> 01:21:23,759
Speaker 1: go anywhere we can go. Did you fish? I heard

1353
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:26,599
Speaker 1: mentioned that you were going to fish with Rachel Matten?

1354
01:21:26,640 --> 01:21:29,280
Speaker 1: Do you do you fish? And tell? Like? Uh? I

1355
01:21:29,320 --> 01:21:33,479
Speaker 1: was gonna Rachel was a bad fisherman. And I met

1356
01:21:33,520 --> 01:21:35,840
Speaker 1: her once. I was surprised. I went to an event.

1357
01:21:36,760 --> 01:21:41,840
Speaker 1: It was her and Tucker Carlson on stage. They didn't

1358
01:21:41,880 --> 01:21:44,400
Speaker 1: known each other and work together and we're friends. Their

1359
01:21:44,439 --> 01:21:47,639
Speaker 1: friends with her, and they were bound by um an

1360
01:21:47,640 --> 01:21:50,000
Speaker 1: interest in fishing. And they got up and they were

1361
01:21:50,040 --> 01:21:52,240
Speaker 1: on stage together talking about that, and I was very

1362
01:21:52,240 --> 01:21:55,759
Speaker 1: surprised that she was the angler. That's fascinating. Well, Tucker

1363
01:21:55,800 --> 01:21:58,959
Speaker 1: Carlson comes to the same place we're go doing anyway

1364
01:21:59,560 --> 01:22:02,320
Speaker 1: last or we were gonna go stripe fishing to stripe

1365
01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:05,760
Speaker 1: bass fishing together. I'm a big admirer of hers and UM.

1366
01:22:06,920 --> 01:22:09,840
Speaker 1: And then NBC grounded her, just said, you know, you

1367
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:12,240
Speaker 1: can't go off for a few days. There's just she said,

1368
01:22:12,280 --> 01:22:15,040
Speaker 1: unless we actually she wrote back, she said, unless we

1369
01:22:15,080 --> 01:22:19,760
Speaker 1: get real indictments. I can't go, oh, I got you so,

1370
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:24,559
Speaker 1: and uh, what's the story you have where I can't

1371
01:22:24,600 --> 01:22:26,800
Speaker 1: hear the name of it right now? You have a

1372
01:22:26,840 --> 01:22:33,200
Speaker 1: story where you guys go hunting birds and and in

1373
01:22:33,240 --> 01:22:36,720
Speaker 1: the end, uh, one of them, he goes off over

1374
01:22:36,760 --> 01:22:39,479
Speaker 1: the hill and kills himself. Yeah. I hear that story.

1375
01:22:39,520 --> 01:22:41,360
Speaker 1: I hear so much about that story. That thing has

1376
01:22:41,400 --> 01:22:44,639
Speaker 1: really had an ongoing life. What's that story called? It's

1377
01:22:44,720 --> 01:22:47,840
Speaker 1: called there's two of those hunting stories, what's called sports one.

1378
01:22:47,920 --> 01:22:53,680
Speaker 1: This one's called Uh. Yeah. I had to read the

1379
01:22:53,760 --> 01:22:55,479
Speaker 1: end a handful of times to make sure that in

1380
01:22:55,520 --> 01:22:59,400
Speaker 1: fact he had going off and shot himself because he

1381
01:22:59,720 --> 01:23:04,880
Speaker 1: gives his hunting partner. He kind of in a very

1382
01:23:04,960 --> 01:23:10,479
Speaker 1: unceremonial way, explains a little bit about his dogs. Take

1383
01:23:10,520 --> 01:23:14,400
Speaker 1: care of the dogs, Yeah, the care schedule. Yeah, when

1384
01:23:14,479 --> 01:23:18,960
Speaker 1: she goes into heat, what she eats? And then he

1385
01:23:19,000 --> 01:23:22,120
Speaker 1: wanders off over a hill, which is a little bit

1386
01:23:22,160 --> 01:23:24,280
Speaker 1: misleading because they had seen the covey birds go over

1387
01:23:24,320 --> 01:23:26,439
Speaker 1: the hill. But he goes over the hill and there's

1388
01:23:26,479 --> 01:23:30,120
Speaker 1: a gunshot. Yeah. Well, you know I had to be like,

1389
01:23:30,120 --> 01:23:32,760
Speaker 1: oh what you know, I'm like, oh no, he absolutely

1390
01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:36,280
Speaker 1: killed himself. Did that come from? It is that I

1391
01:23:36,320 --> 01:23:39,719
Speaker 1: don't anything in your personal life, not really a couple

1392
01:23:39,760 --> 01:23:43,400
Speaker 1: of things kind of, you know. I don't expect to

1393
01:23:43,520 --> 01:23:47,559
Speaker 1: head out in the rapture, you know, But I always

1394
01:23:47,600 --> 01:23:52,040
Speaker 1: thought the closest thing to rapture that I know is

1395
01:23:52,120 --> 01:23:56,320
Speaker 1: to step into a cuvey covey rice. There's really nothing

1396
01:23:56,360 --> 01:23:59,080
Speaker 1: like it. There's so much life, so many beating hearts,

1397
01:23:59,120 --> 01:24:02,320
Speaker 1: so many eyes, so much expectation, all goes up like

1398
01:24:02,439 --> 01:24:08,600
Speaker 1: a big celestial corsage. And I thought, if I was

1399
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:11,840
Speaker 1: gonna if I was going to sort of moored out

1400
01:24:12,200 --> 01:24:14,640
Speaker 1: by my own hand, that would be kind of a

1401
01:24:14,720 --> 01:24:17,400
Speaker 1: nice way to go. And I heard when my cousin

1402
01:24:17,479 --> 01:24:21,479
Speaker 1: just told me he had an old friend, uh it

1403
01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:26,040
Speaker 1: was terminally ill and was going to I'm gonna end

1404
01:24:26,120 --> 01:24:28,519
Speaker 1: that day. Either knew that was his last day or

1405
01:24:29,360 --> 01:24:32,840
Speaker 1: uh or they were going to pull the the pain

1406
01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:34,880
Speaker 1: mid plugs or something. But he knew it was over.

1407
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:38,080
Speaker 1: And there's an old friend of his lives in Rhode Island,

1408
01:24:38,080 --> 01:24:40,160
Speaker 1: and so he was very cheerful about it. He had

1409
01:24:40,160 --> 01:24:42,000
Speaker 1: a great life, he had a good run, said me,

1410
01:24:42,120 --> 01:24:44,040
Speaker 1: I find a find with this. Well, they said, what

1411
01:24:44,080 --> 01:24:46,840
Speaker 1: do you want? He said, well, this was actually still

1412
01:24:46,920 --> 01:24:48,719
Speaker 1: in the winter. He said, just build a big fire.

1413
01:24:49,600 --> 01:24:53,120
Speaker 1: I don't want my lap rob robe. I want my

1414
01:24:53,479 --> 01:24:59,960
Speaker 1: bird dog, I want my cat. That's it off he want.

1415
01:25:01,320 --> 01:25:04,560
Speaker 1: He's fine with it. Were you friends with Richard Brodigan,

1416
01:25:04,600 --> 01:25:08,280
Speaker 1: You have very you have very good friends. Tell a

1417
01:25:08,320 --> 01:25:10,599
Speaker 1: little about that. I mean, were you involved, I mean,

1418
01:25:10,680 --> 01:25:13,080
Speaker 1: were you It's kind of like this famous story about

1419
01:25:13,080 --> 01:25:14,519
Speaker 1: a bunch of guys that were hunting and he was

1420
01:25:14,520 --> 01:25:18,120
Speaker 1: supposed to show up, yeah, and didn't show up. The

1421
01:25:18,160 --> 01:25:24,080
Speaker 1: thing that I remember the most was, um uh, I

1422
01:25:24,080 --> 01:25:25,960
Speaker 1: thought he was doing great. I talked to him into

1423
01:25:26,800 --> 01:25:32,440
Speaker 1: giving up drinking for a period, and he just transformative,

1424
01:25:32,479 --> 01:25:34,640
Speaker 1: I mean physically changed. He had this big, sort of

1425
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:38,120
Speaker 1: projected belly, you know, and he's drinking all the time

1426
01:25:38,160 --> 01:25:41,600
Speaker 1: and starting at daybreak practically. And then he spent this

1427
01:25:41,640 --> 01:25:44,320
Speaker 1: whole summer being this happy, thin guy to give readings

1428
01:25:44,320 --> 01:25:47,559
Speaker 1: around the neighborhood. Everybody was determined to resume drinking as

1429
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:50,759
Speaker 1: soon as possible, especially he liked to go to Japan

1430
01:25:50,800 --> 01:25:52,679
Speaker 1: and stay drunk the whole time he was in Japan.

1431
01:25:52,760 --> 01:25:55,280
Speaker 1: That was his big deal. And I'm not sure. Maybe

1432
01:25:55,280 --> 01:25:58,759
Speaker 1: it's put apart of bonding and culture or something in Japan.

1433
01:25:58,880 --> 01:26:05,280
Speaker 1: But um, so he came to my house, uh, and

1434
01:26:05,360 --> 01:26:12,040
Speaker 1: he brought this black Japanese funerary funerary urn. Are you

1435
01:26:12,160 --> 01:26:16,600
Speaker 1: Japanese or Chinese? Half Chinese? Half Chinese, half Chinese? So

1436
01:26:16,720 --> 01:26:19,479
Speaker 1: you don't you know what a funerary urn is? Is

1437
01:26:19,520 --> 01:26:23,720
Speaker 1: that Japanese or Chinese? But I believe that it's Japanese

1438
01:26:24,080 --> 01:26:28,519
Speaker 1: and that's where the anyways, beautiful, beautiful black ceramic thing.

1439
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:30,000
Speaker 1: He brought it over to my house and he said,

1440
01:26:30,400 --> 01:26:32,880
Speaker 1: I want you to hang on to this, and he said,

1441
01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:37,320
Speaker 1: you'll look, someone will call you for it. Fine, Richards,

1442
01:26:37,439 --> 01:26:39,080
Speaker 1: I put it there. I had it two fly ras,

1443
01:26:39,200 --> 01:26:44,160
Speaker 1: one of which I gave the ripped torn and uh,

1444
01:26:44,479 --> 01:26:46,720
Speaker 1: not too long after that, I get a call, you know,

1445
01:26:46,840 --> 01:26:48,719
Speaker 1: from his daughter. I think it was from his daughter saying,

1446
01:26:48,760 --> 01:26:53,040
Speaker 1: you know, Richards committed suicide. We've sent the urn no ship. Yeah.

1447
01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:57,200
Speaker 1: He even told her where to find it. Huh. You

1448
01:26:57,240 --> 01:27:00,240
Speaker 1: know why I asked you about that. We're driving up here,

1449
01:27:01,320 --> 01:27:06,799
Speaker 1: driving around looking for your house. Um yoanninging here Yannie

1450
01:27:06,800 --> 01:27:09,559
Speaker 1: and I were talking about our friend Doug, who's out

1451
01:27:09,560 --> 01:27:11,960
Speaker 1: here with a couple of buddies of his from Wisconsin.

1452
01:27:12,560 --> 01:27:15,120
Speaker 1: Right now, they're here in Montana and they're just driving

1453
01:27:15,160 --> 01:27:21,360
Speaker 1: around fishing, and Joannice mentioned me that part of their

1454
01:27:21,400 --> 01:27:26,280
Speaker 1: plan while they're driving around fishing is to read Trout

1455
01:27:26,320 --> 01:27:30,640
Speaker 1: Fishing in America. And I said to Joannice, well, you know,

1456
01:27:30,680 --> 01:27:32,320
Speaker 1: it doesn't really have anything to do with trout fishing,

1457
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:37,000
Speaker 1: and he said, they know. Oh, that's great, greatly. Hey,

1458
01:27:37,040 --> 01:27:40,879
Speaker 1: I gotta Richard's daughter just sent me a new addition

1459
01:27:40,880 --> 01:27:42,519
Speaker 1: of it. I might be able to see it. I

1460
01:27:42,560 --> 01:27:45,800
Speaker 1: saw it the other day, Um of troun Fishing in

1461
01:27:45,800 --> 01:27:51,320
Speaker 1: America with Billy Collins introduction. Okay, isn't that cool? Yeah? Well,

1462
01:27:51,320 --> 01:27:53,760
Speaker 1: it was a magical book. I mean, and whatever it was,

1463
01:27:54,080 --> 01:27:55,800
Speaker 1: I don't know what it was. I've read it two

1464
01:27:55,920 --> 01:27:58,400
Speaker 1: or three times. It's just a great book. Yeah, one

1465
01:27:58,439 --> 01:28:02,679
Speaker 1: of the most requestioned books in the entire American library systems,

1466
01:28:02,800 --> 01:28:06,120
Speaker 1: right up there with Huckleberry Finn or something. You know,

1467
01:28:06,240 --> 01:28:10,280
Speaker 1: there's a couple more questions for you. There's the thing

1468
01:28:10,320 --> 01:28:13,720
Speaker 1: that I've read where you've written it a couple of

1469
01:28:13,800 --> 01:28:19,840
Speaker 1: times or said in interviews, UM that fishing is the

1470
01:28:19,960 --> 01:28:26,280
Speaker 1: second most published subject after mathematics. Yeah, what does that mean? Though?

1471
01:28:26,320 --> 01:28:28,759
Speaker 1: I have no idea. It is way too much stuff

1472
01:28:28,800 --> 01:28:32,240
Speaker 1: about fishing out there. I hate to throw throw another

1473
01:28:32,280 --> 01:28:34,439
Speaker 1: little one out there. No. I thought about that when

1474
01:28:34,439 --> 01:28:36,120
Speaker 1: I came in and looked at your bookshelves, and I

1475
01:28:36,200 --> 01:28:38,160
Speaker 1: remembered that. I can't remember if you wrote it or

1476
01:28:38,200 --> 01:28:39,960
Speaker 1: said in an interview, but you've written it. Was the

1477
01:28:40,000 --> 01:28:43,360
Speaker 1: second most published subject, next to mathematics. I don't know why.

1478
01:28:43,360 --> 01:28:48,439
Speaker 1: It's just because for the sort of outdoor activities, especially

1479
01:28:48,520 --> 01:28:51,599
Speaker 1: the ones with any kind of a predatorial component, it's

1480
01:28:51,600 --> 01:28:55,320
Speaker 1: the most contemplative. So it may that maybe what what

1481
01:28:55,479 --> 01:28:57,439
Speaker 1: leads to it. I have a book that I tried

1482
01:28:57,479 --> 01:29:03,920
Speaker 1: to get. It's called Blood notts um unbelievable book by

1483
01:29:04,040 --> 01:29:07,080
Speaker 1: an English writer, A good name for a fishing book. Yeah.

1484
01:29:07,280 --> 01:29:09,920
Speaker 1: He was the he was the dance critic of The Observer,

1485
01:29:10,479 --> 01:29:15,320
Speaker 1: really and he wrote the stunning book about fishing. Um.

1486
01:29:15,439 --> 01:29:18,000
Speaker 1: And uh, I mean it's just a great book U.

1487
01:29:19,640 --> 01:29:22,759
Speaker 1: And I got all sorts of people to help promoted.

1488
01:29:22,840 --> 01:29:25,759
Speaker 1: I had always always renowned people write blurbs and stuff

1489
01:29:25,760 --> 01:29:28,519
Speaker 1: for it really didn't they was published very poorly and

1490
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:32,120
Speaker 1: didn't really go anywhere. Um. But it was one of

1491
01:29:32,160 --> 01:29:35,759
Speaker 1: these books like the book about the Swedish utopia VSA

1492
01:29:35,880 --> 01:29:40,080
Speaker 1: v angling you know. Uh. And this guy grew up

1493
01:29:40,120 --> 01:29:44,240
Speaker 1: he comes from. It starts out dad was teaching him

1494
01:29:44,240 --> 01:29:47,040
Speaker 1: to fish, and he he never could understand why his

1495
01:29:47,080 --> 01:29:50,040
Speaker 1: mother would get up in the morning and apply saves

1496
01:29:50,080 --> 01:29:53,160
Speaker 1: to his fire to father's body and then they get

1497
01:29:53,240 --> 01:29:55,960
Speaker 1: dressed and go fishing, and he couldn't understand what that

1498
01:29:56,040 --> 01:29:59,320
Speaker 1: was about. Uh. And then as he learned to fish,

1499
01:29:59,360 --> 01:30:01,559
Speaker 1: he started quick singing his dad about these things. Turned

1500
01:30:01,560 --> 01:30:03,360
Speaker 1: out his dad was in a tank battle and his

1501
01:30:03,479 --> 01:30:08,320
Speaker 1: talent in the Nazi tank hit it with an anti

1502
01:30:08,400 --> 01:30:10,479
Speaker 1: tank weapon of some kind of The thing burst into

1503
01:30:10,520 --> 01:30:12,320
Speaker 1: flame and he was one of the first guys to

1504
01:30:12,360 --> 01:30:16,080
Speaker 1: get a total plastic surgery treatment of the Second World War. Well,

1505
01:30:16,120 --> 01:30:18,520
Speaker 1: that kind of folds in as he's learning to fish.

1506
01:30:18,720 --> 01:30:20,799
Speaker 1: Then he has a He has a hero at school

1507
01:30:20,840 --> 01:30:24,240
Speaker 1: who's like one of those super male figures that young

1508
01:30:24,280 --> 01:30:26,840
Speaker 1: guys kind of identified with when they're kids in school.

1509
01:30:26,840 --> 01:30:31,679
Speaker 1: He's a falconer, he's a great fisherman, and he followed

1510
01:30:31,760 --> 01:30:35,120
Speaker 1: him through life. They often fish together. The hero guy

1511
01:30:35,640 --> 01:30:40,639
Speaker 1: joined the Royal Irish Constabulary in uh in Northern Ireland

1512
01:30:40,720 --> 01:30:44,320
Speaker 1: during the troubles. These guys all went to this ancient

1513
01:30:44,439 --> 01:30:47,840
Speaker 1: Catholic college in England's like six year old college and

1514
01:30:48,080 --> 01:30:51,240
Speaker 1: grew up in this kind of intense Catholic atmosphere. He

1515
01:30:51,360 --> 01:30:54,000
Speaker 1: joins the the r U R what it was called,

1516
01:30:54,800 --> 01:30:59,760
Speaker 1: and he's captured by the I ra A uh and

1517
01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:03,759
Speaker 1: they tortured him for two weeks. They brought fake priests

1518
01:31:03,760 --> 01:31:07,280
Speaker 1: in to do the last rites, and then they killed

1519
01:31:07,360 --> 01:31:11,080
Speaker 1: him and then leers. Afterwards, this guy fishing runs into

1520
01:31:11,120 --> 01:31:13,320
Speaker 1: some of those I ra A guys and they said, well,

1521
01:31:13,800 --> 01:31:15,439
Speaker 1: I can tell you this about your friend. He was

1522
01:31:15,479 --> 01:31:18,599
Speaker 1: a real soldier, he never broke But this is all

1523
01:31:18,680 --> 01:31:24,040
Speaker 1: interwoven with with hardcore serious fishing. And I began to think,

1524
01:31:24,080 --> 01:31:26,600
Speaker 1: you know, it's pretty seamless, you know. Then O, this

1525
01:31:26,640 --> 01:31:32,400
Speaker 1: would have happened if he hadn't been a fisherman, you know. So, Uh,

1526
01:31:32,680 --> 01:31:38,080
Speaker 1: what's the name Harry? Uh? Oh? What is that? Uh? Anyway,

1527
01:31:38,080 --> 01:31:41,320
Speaker 1: there's a wonderful writer. He died long ago. What about fishing? Uh?

1528
01:31:41,920 --> 01:31:44,400
Speaker 1: Starlight Angling Club was was one of his one of

1529
01:31:44,439 --> 01:31:46,559
Speaker 1: his books. They were so intermeshed with life, you know,

1530
01:31:46,640 --> 01:31:50,160
Speaker 1: And that's so maybe that's why there's so much fishing

1531
01:31:50,200 --> 01:31:52,719
Speaker 1: stuff out there. I don't know, do you feel that

1532
01:31:53,080 --> 01:31:58,280
Speaker 1: if you ended the world now and let it start

1533
01:31:58,360 --> 01:32:02,559
Speaker 1: back over again and the world gets going again, would

1534
01:32:03,760 --> 01:32:09,120
Speaker 1: um would so many writers that fish be fly fisherman?

1535
01:32:09,320 --> 01:32:10,760
Speaker 1: Or do you think you could let it start over

1536
01:32:10,800 --> 01:32:13,360
Speaker 1: again and it would wind up that so many writers

1537
01:32:13,360 --> 01:32:19,240
Speaker 1: that fish were spin fisherman. What a question? I don't know.

1538
01:32:19,479 --> 01:32:24,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, the mentality of trying to

1539
01:32:24,320 --> 01:32:26,280
Speaker 1: catch a fish with a fly is so very different,

1540
01:32:26,320 --> 01:32:31,720
Speaker 1: I mean with spin fisherman basically attacking fish. Yeah, and

1541
01:32:32,200 --> 01:32:36,679
Speaker 1: I like that, And uh, you have to fly fishing

1542
01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:39,960
Speaker 1: is you kind of have to make a deal. You

1543
01:32:40,000 --> 01:32:42,960
Speaker 1: know what English fly fishing writer Shaip, what do you do?

1544
01:32:43,080 --> 01:32:46,040
Speaker 1: What's this all about? He said, Well, you make a

1545
01:32:46,120 --> 01:32:52,320
Speaker 1: cast and then you await results. That's a that's a

1546
01:32:52,640 --> 01:32:57,200
Speaker 1: whole other thing. Then, you know, you know what I'm saying, Man,

1547
01:32:57,280 --> 01:32:59,080
Speaker 1: I like them. I like all that. I like any

1548
01:32:59,160 --> 01:33:01,280
Speaker 1: kind of fishing you got. You got a line in

1549
01:33:01,360 --> 01:33:03,519
Speaker 1: one of your fishing stories where you're talking about a

1550
01:33:03,680 --> 01:33:08,760
Speaker 1: fly presenting a fly to a fish. You said that

1551
01:33:08,800 --> 01:33:13,800
Speaker 1: it's like a highway exit that's labeled free beer, right,

1552
01:33:14,120 --> 01:33:18,519
Speaker 1: and most motorists are just gonna blow pass. Some motors

1553
01:33:18,600 --> 01:33:22,200
Speaker 1: are gonna think like, oh, that's a ruse and they're

1554
01:33:22,240 --> 01:33:25,080
Speaker 1: gonna ambush me and kill me. I didn't remember saying this,

1555
01:33:25,240 --> 01:33:29,680
Speaker 1: but some guys are just gonna get off. There are

1556
01:33:29,680 --> 01:33:33,519
Speaker 1: gonna take those are the fishy catch. You know. He

1557
01:33:33,560 --> 01:33:35,240
Speaker 1: had a magic moment. I was last year. I was

1558
01:33:35,280 --> 01:33:37,640
Speaker 1: fishing on the New Fork of the Green and Wyoming.

1559
01:33:38,680 --> 01:33:41,479
Speaker 1: I was fishing with dry flies. That big, big dry flies.

1560
01:33:41,520 --> 01:33:43,960
Speaker 1: Are a lot of great drakes on the water and

1561
01:33:45,080 --> 01:33:49,280
Speaker 1: fired out there's floating along, dancing along. We're all filled

1562
01:33:49,320 --> 01:33:54,520
Speaker 1: with hope. This big brown trout comes up. It stalls.

1563
01:33:56,720 --> 01:34:00,519
Speaker 1: He says, this is bullshit and he swims away. As

1564
01:34:00,520 --> 01:34:04,639
Speaker 1: he swims away, it's all going downstream. He's developing doubts.

1565
01:34:07,160 --> 01:34:08,639
Speaker 1: I can see him go through this thing, and he goes,

1566
01:34:09,280 --> 01:34:16,800
Speaker 1: I think I'll eat it. So I recently had uh.

1567
01:34:18,160 --> 01:34:20,960
Speaker 1: But we're at my mother's home, and my mother lives

1568
01:34:21,000 --> 01:34:23,080
Speaker 1: in the house I was brought up in, and my kid,

1569
01:34:23,920 --> 01:34:29,320
Speaker 1: who's nine, he looks under the pontoon boat. She's got

1570
01:34:29,320 --> 01:34:32,080
Speaker 1: a pontoon boat moored up to her dock. He looks

1571
01:34:32,080 --> 01:34:34,599
Speaker 1: out of the pontoon ball. There's a big, large mouth

1572
01:34:35,680 --> 01:34:39,640
Speaker 1: um feeling it hovering in the hovering in the shadows,

1573
01:34:39,800 --> 01:34:44,599
Speaker 1: you know, and he takes his beach saying and eventually

1574
01:34:44,600 --> 01:34:47,200
Speaker 1: gets a big what we call like a horn nose chub.

1575
01:34:47,600 --> 01:34:49,880
Speaker 1: Those big those now they get the males get a

1576
01:34:49,920 --> 01:34:54,320
Speaker 1: knobby knows on him and I free hook it on

1577
01:34:54,360 --> 01:34:56,479
Speaker 1: their for him. There's no weight, it's just this chubb

1578
01:34:57,040 --> 01:34:58,559
Speaker 1: and I tell him to flick it up under there,

1579
01:34:58,560 --> 01:35:04,799
Speaker 1: you know. And the way that fish, just the total

1580
01:35:04,840 --> 01:35:11,000
Speaker 1: conviction with which that fish took that chubb, like no

1581
01:35:12,600 --> 01:35:16,880
Speaker 1: hesitation or doubt like something like that. Though, it is

1582
01:35:16,920 --> 01:35:19,120
Speaker 1: a little bit magical to watch. Well, that fish is

1583
01:35:19,160 --> 01:35:23,960
Speaker 1: like I'll take it, I buy it. And it's interesting

1584
01:35:24,000 --> 01:35:26,519
Speaker 1: because you know, it's almost startling. You know, there's fish

1585
01:35:26,560 --> 01:35:29,400
Speaker 1: that living around docks and stuff in Florida. You know,

1586
01:35:29,439 --> 01:35:31,679
Speaker 1: they've had so many people try to catch them. I mean,

1587
01:35:32,080 --> 01:35:37,960
Speaker 1: you can slide a live shrimp down their face like this.

1588
01:35:39,280 --> 01:35:43,800
Speaker 1: They're not gonna let it fall uh one more for you.

1589
01:35:43,880 --> 01:35:45,880
Speaker 1: I know. It's on the way in. There's turkeys hanging

1590
01:35:45,880 --> 01:35:48,479
Speaker 1: around here. Are they living here? Yere? Around? Are they

1591
01:35:48,520 --> 01:35:50,640
Speaker 1: migrate up and down? No, there're a lot of a

1592
01:35:50,680 --> 01:35:53,120
Speaker 1: lot of them around here, and they get very yeah,

1593
01:35:53,200 --> 01:35:56,160
Speaker 1: they get very tame. They hone in on the imagine

1594
01:35:56,200 --> 01:35:58,280
Speaker 1: that they're only making their living because they can winner

1595
01:35:58,360 --> 01:36:01,040
Speaker 1: up around animals, livestock. I think that's part of it.

1596
01:36:01,080 --> 01:36:05,200
Speaker 1: We had we had one living on rusty, living on

1597
01:36:05,240 --> 01:36:07,519
Speaker 1: the porch all winter long, and he went off with

1598
01:36:07,560 --> 01:36:10,240
Speaker 1: his pack. Used to be when we would grain our

1599
01:36:10,240 --> 01:36:12,439
Speaker 1: horses out of a trough, you know, we take a

1600
01:36:12,479 --> 01:36:14,240
Speaker 1: bucket of grain and put it in this long wooden

1601
01:36:14,240 --> 01:36:16,080
Speaker 1: trough and we gotta go out there. The horses will

1602
01:36:16,120 --> 01:36:18,120
Speaker 1: be lined up and there'll be turkeys lined up between

1603
01:36:18,160 --> 01:36:22,799
Speaker 1: the horses. So do you do you hunt the turkeys?

1604
01:36:23,600 --> 01:36:26,040
Speaker 1: Do I have turkeys? It wouldn't be very sporting here.

1605
01:36:26,360 --> 01:36:29,120
Speaker 1: I have gone turkey hunting. I haven't been successful at it,

1606
01:36:29,120 --> 01:36:31,120
Speaker 1: but I've gone turkey hunting when I've been visiting my

1607
01:36:31,280 --> 01:36:35,639
Speaker 1: in laws in Alabama, and that's very that seems very

1608
01:36:35,680 --> 01:36:37,479
Speaker 1: interesting to me. But I mean, this would be case

1609
01:36:37,520 --> 01:36:40,400
Speaker 1: of going out and plugging one. I mean, these are

1610
01:36:40,439 --> 01:36:45,120
Speaker 1: Miriam's turkeys. They were established there a New Mexico turkey originally.

1611
01:36:45,280 --> 01:36:48,120
Speaker 1: They they're like hans. They just found a biota that

1612
01:36:48,160 --> 01:36:53,920
Speaker 1: they could move right into. Uh. Remember earlier I was

1613
01:36:54,040 --> 01:36:57,200
Speaker 1: praising you for just how believable everything, and you're and

1614
01:36:57,320 --> 01:37:00,280
Speaker 1: your work is We're gonna move on to something unbelievable. Yeah,

1615
01:37:00,280 --> 01:37:01,760
Speaker 1: I just want to ask you about the one thing

1616
01:37:01,760 --> 01:37:04,720
Speaker 1: that I was like, uh, that's not cracked. What was it?

1617
01:37:04,800 --> 01:37:07,840
Speaker 1: You know, your story Canyon Ferry. Yeah, there's a guy

1618
01:37:07,880 --> 01:37:10,000
Speaker 1: that's taken like his he's taking a kid out of

1619
01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:13,960
Speaker 1: ice fishing on Canyon Ferry Lake, but it's the wintertime

1620
01:37:14,560 --> 01:37:18,480
Speaker 1: and he has a coffee can full of crawlers. Oh

1621
01:37:18,560 --> 01:37:21,880
Speaker 1: I really didn't like that. Yeah, they'd phrazed, wouldn't they

1622
01:37:21,920 --> 01:37:25,360
Speaker 1: Just he wouldn't have that guy. Yeah, he wouldn't have

1623
01:37:25,560 --> 01:37:28,599
Speaker 1: that guy, wouldn't have that. He couldn't buy him like that. Yeah,

1624
01:37:28,680 --> 01:37:30,559
Speaker 1: it might be true. Ye know. I feel like if

1625
01:37:30,560 --> 01:37:32,559
Speaker 1: you ever do a revised version, you need to change.

1626
01:37:32,600 --> 01:37:35,680
Speaker 1: He needs to have a styrofoam container. Yea that he

1627
01:37:35,720 --> 01:37:40,160
Speaker 1: bought a Bob Wartz a styrofoam container from the cold.

1628
01:37:40,400 --> 01:37:42,160
Speaker 1: That was the only thing I've ever read. And this

1629
01:37:42,200 --> 01:37:44,200
Speaker 1: is this is this sounds like an insult, but it's

1630
01:37:44,240 --> 01:37:47,400
Speaker 1: a it's a compliment. How many books have you written?

1631
01:37:48,040 --> 01:37:50,439
Speaker 1: I don't know, fifteen or something, I guess, and how

1632
01:37:50,520 --> 01:37:53,679
Speaker 1: many how many short stories? I don't know? A lot.

1633
01:37:53,920 --> 01:37:56,559
Speaker 1: I just collected him in excess of like, you know,

1634
01:37:56,760 --> 01:38:01,080
Speaker 1: dozens and dozens and he've written an entire of essays

1635
01:38:01,080 --> 01:38:06,640
Speaker 1: about horses. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I just want to

1636
01:38:06,640 --> 01:38:10,040
Speaker 1: point out that all that and that I'll take it

1637
01:38:10,200 --> 01:38:14,519
Speaker 1: if that's the worst one time when I was like, no, oh,

1638
01:38:14,600 --> 01:38:18,679
Speaker 1: it was painful, but it just I think that it

1639
01:38:18,680 --> 01:38:29,559
Speaker 1: it reveals how um, just the how well versed you've

1640
01:38:29,600 --> 01:38:35,600
Speaker 1: become in your life, just everything having to do with America. Yeah, no,

1641
01:38:35,720 --> 01:38:40,920
Speaker 1: I'm you know, it's funny. I have a friend who's uh,

1642
01:38:42,479 --> 01:38:47,840
Speaker 1: who just married you just married a girl from Prague.

1643
01:38:48,400 --> 01:38:50,559
Speaker 1: There's a guy that I fished to sail with luck

1644
01:38:51,200 --> 01:38:54,960
Speaker 1: and she has some kind of a uh problem coming

1645
01:38:55,040 --> 01:38:57,040
Speaker 1: going out of the country. I mean her, you know,

1646
01:38:57,360 --> 01:39:00,040
Speaker 1: you can't just get married now and automatically assaults of

1647
01:39:00,160 --> 01:39:02,920
Speaker 1: this problem. So they're out of the country now, they're

1648
01:39:02,920 --> 01:39:08,120
Speaker 1: wandering around, they've been on the Croatian coast, they're doing stuff. Um.

1649
01:39:08,160 --> 01:39:10,559
Speaker 1: But I can tell how homesick he is for America.

1650
01:39:10,640 --> 01:39:12,600
Speaker 1: And he's a real ex hippie, you know, he's not

1651
01:39:12,720 --> 01:39:16,000
Speaker 1: nostalgic about America. But I lived over I lived in

1652
01:39:16,000 --> 01:39:18,360
Speaker 1: Ireland one time. I lived in Spain. I lived in Italy,

1653
01:39:19,160 --> 01:39:20,920
Speaker 1: but I was always trying to find what's going on

1654
01:39:21,000 --> 01:39:25,479
Speaker 1: in America, you know. And uh and also I got

1655
01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:28,360
Speaker 1: sort of educated in the early idea that there was

1656
01:39:28,400 --> 01:39:30,639
Speaker 1: such a thing as American literature that wasn't the same

1657
01:39:30,680 --> 01:39:33,840
Speaker 1: as English literature. That was actually when I was going

1658
01:39:33,840 --> 01:39:37,439
Speaker 1: to college. That was a relatively new idea that you know,

1659
01:39:37,479 --> 01:39:42,080
Speaker 1: it wasn't always in the air. And uh, programs like

1660
01:39:42,120 --> 01:39:44,800
Speaker 1: American Studies, all those kinds of things. The old idea

1661
01:39:44,840 --> 01:39:46,680
Speaker 1: that there is such a thing. We're not just a

1662
01:39:47,720 --> 01:39:52,040
Speaker 1: disparate in Malick, we are kind of a people. Uh

1663
01:39:52,120 --> 01:39:58,559
Speaker 1: and that's not been for sure forever. And uh so

1664
01:39:59,120 --> 01:40:02,200
Speaker 1: I'm kind of now that I see it, kind of imperiled.

1665
01:40:02,280 --> 01:40:06,120
Speaker 1: I'm just really interested in what it is, what this

1666
01:40:06,200 --> 01:40:09,800
Speaker 1: country is, what it is to be an American. Um

1667
01:40:09,840 --> 01:40:12,280
Speaker 1: And when I just was overseas, I really noticed that.

1668
01:40:12,320 --> 01:40:13,800
Speaker 1: I was just like, what's going on. I gotta get

1669
01:40:13,800 --> 01:40:17,679
Speaker 1: the Buildings Gazette. I'm done in Brittany, you know, powing

1670
01:40:17,760 --> 01:40:20,719
Speaker 1: mysel phone. What's going to happen to the Billings Gazette today?

1671
01:40:22,840 --> 01:40:28,400
Speaker 1: It's kind of it's kind of ignorant in a way

1672
01:40:28,400 --> 01:40:31,240
Speaker 1: to look at that, but I don't long to be

1673
01:40:31,320 --> 01:40:34,559
Speaker 1: an expatriate as some people did at one time, never

1674
01:40:34,640 --> 01:40:37,559
Speaker 1: did want to be. And whenever I'm not here, I

1675
01:40:37,560 --> 01:40:41,240
Speaker 1: want to know what's going on and I and I

1676
01:40:41,240 --> 01:40:43,840
Speaker 1: would like to kind of claw my way to a

1677
01:40:43,960 --> 01:40:46,920
Speaker 1: sort of a template or an overview of what an act,

1678
01:40:47,000 --> 01:40:50,320
Speaker 1: what this country actually is, since it's changing so quickly.

1679
01:40:51,640 --> 01:40:54,519
Speaker 1: My wife had a job for a while where it

1680
01:40:54,520 --> 01:40:59,920
Speaker 1: would have been possible to go and take a position overseas,

1681
01:41:00,840 --> 01:41:04,120
Speaker 1: and when she brought this up to me, I told

1682
01:41:04,120 --> 01:41:06,840
Speaker 1: that I was just too American to live somewhere else,

1683
01:41:07,960 --> 01:41:11,360
Speaker 1: which I felt was Yeah, I thought I wouldn't be

1684
01:41:11,360 --> 01:41:13,479
Speaker 1: able to pull it off. I wouldn't be able to

1685
01:41:13,520 --> 01:41:15,360
Speaker 1: pull it off either. And you know you noticed it

1686
01:41:15,400 --> 01:41:17,880
Speaker 1: if you you know, if you get translated a lot,

1687
01:41:18,360 --> 01:41:20,360
Speaker 1: because they really have a lot of a lot of

1688
01:41:20,479 --> 01:41:25,000
Speaker 1: uh problems with our language, you know what I mean.

1689
01:41:25,400 --> 01:41:28,519
Speaker 1: For example, they couldn't translate the title Cloudbursts, which is

1690
01:41:28,560 --> 01:41:32,120
Speaker 1: my collected stories. French couldn't translate that there isn't a cloud,

1691
01:41:32,160 --> 01:41:34,000
Speaker 1: but there isn't a term for that. Where do they

1692
01:41:34,040 --> 01:41:39,200
Speaker 1: go with I can't remember? Or what's what? Whatever they

1693
01:41:39,240 --> 01:41:43,000
Speaker 1: went with? What's it? Translate speak French. They went with

1694
01:41:45,280 --> 01:41:49,640
Speaker 1: wandlecil city near when I was in franchise. Is that

1695
01:41:49,760 --> 01:41:54,080
Speaker 1: a nice tale? Oh yeah, it's very nice. Thank you.

1696
01:41:55,840 --> 01:41:59,920
Speaker 1: There is there anything that you wish you've gotten asked about?

1697
01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:02,439
Speaker 1: They didn't get asked about here today? Yeah? Any you

1698
01:42:02,439 --> 01:42:05,120
Speaker 1: want to wedge, you know, But this has been really fun.

1699
01:42:05,160 --> 01:42:07,840
Speaker 1: I could do this for a long time because it's

1700
01:42:08,000 --> 01:42:10,400
Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of intuitive. You know, I'm I'm

1701
01:42:10,479 --> 01:42:14,040
Speaker 1: enjoying this. I guess I was concerned that there would

1702
01:42:14,040 --> 01:42:16,720
Speaker 1: be more of a template for what we were going

1703
01:42:16,760 --> 01:42:20,519
Speaker 1: to go toward that hasn't happened. Um, maybe I missed out.

1704
01:42:20,600 --> 01:42:22,320
Speaker 1: What would that have been? I think you sucked up.

1705
01:42:22,360 --> 01:42:29,480
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but that's what I like. That approach

1706
01:42:29,560 --> 01:42:33,559
Speaker 1: to anything. I mean, that's the way I write. You know,

1707
01:42:33,880 --> 01:42:36,600
Speaker 1: something arrests my attention. I have no idea what's going

1708
01:42:36,640 --> 01:42:39,320
Speaker 1: to happen. I had an image one time we rented

1709
01:42:39,320 --> 01:42:43,720
Speaker 1: a house down the Gulf coast when you're I went

1710
01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:46,000
Speaker 1: down ahead of time. I didn't know anybody at this town.

1711
01:42:46,080 --> 01:42:48,280
Speaker 1: It was seemed very strange to me that people seemed

1712
01:42:48,280 --> 01:42:50,280
Speaker 1: fairly strange. But I had the rental host, you know,

1713
01:42:50,320 --> 01:42:53,439
Speaker 1: on the renter, the realtor gave me the keys, and

1714
01:42:54,080 --> 01:42:55,839
Speaker 1: I went out to look at the Gulf of Mexico

1715
01:42:56,000 --> 01:42:59,800
Speaker 1: and the the wind blew the door shot. Now I'm

1716
01:42:59,800 --> 01:43:01,760
Speaker 1: on the porch. I can't get back into the house.

1717
01:43:01,840 --> 01:43:05,120
Speaker 1: I don't know anybody. Somebody drove me there, and I

1718
01:43:05,120 --> 01:43:09,479
Speaker 1: mean I felt this kind of derascinated panic, you know.

1719
01:43:09,880 --> 01:43:14,760
Speaker 1: Suddenly I became nobody on this windy porch. So that's

1720
01:43:14,760 --> 01:43:16,240
Speaker 1: how I had to go on. I had just had

1721
01:43:16,280 --> 01:43:19,760
Speaker 1: that image. I said, well, wonder where this goes? And

1722
01:43:19,800 --> 01:43:22,519
Speaker 1: that life is kind of like that, I think. And

1723
01:43:22,600 --> 01:43:28,640
Speaker 1: that's what most fiction writers, uh uh, admit at some

1724
01:43:28,720 --> 01:43:31,200
Speaker 1: point in a time, most of them not all that

1725
01:43:31,280 --> 01:43:35,160
Speaker 1: writing is really improvisitory. I mean, as a cheever said

1726
01:43:35,160 --> 01:43:37,640
Speaker 1: it over and over again. In fact, my my experience

1727
01:43:37,720 --> 01:43:40,880
Speaker 1: is if you really know where it's going, it's probably

1728
01:43:40,880 --> 01:43:43,960
Speaker 1: not going to be any good. You don't write the

1729
01:43:44,080 --> 01:43:47,720
Speaker 1: end first, no, no, hell no. But I revised a lot.

1730
01:43:47,760 --> 01:43:49,760
Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a rewriter, you know. I do a

1731
01:43:49,840 --> 01:43:52,760
Speaker 1: lot of drafts, but I don't know where it's going.

1732
01:43:52,800 --> 01:43:55,880
Speaker 1: Maybe I want to be a reader when I'm writing.

1733
01:43:55,880 --> 01:43:57,400
Speaker 1: I want to be a reader with a little bit

1734
01:43:57,479 --> 01:44:02,400
Speaker 1: of an advantage, which is what I used to do

1735
01:44:02,479 --> 01:44:05,799
Speaker 1: magazine stories, which is totally different, but pieces of reporting

1736
01:44:05,880 --> 01:44:08,479
Speaker 1: or whatever. I would start with a place I wanted

1737
01:44:08,520 --> 01:44:12,400
Speaker 1: to get, like a really cool scene or something that

1738
01:44:12,479 --> 01:44:16,479
Speaker 1: was impactful, and then picture writing the rest of the

1739
01:44:16,560 --> 01:44:19,160
Speaker 1: article in the way that would warrant such an impactful ending.

1740
01:44:20,280 --> 01:44:22,080
Speaker 1: Did you actually follow through with that or oh, that's

1741
01:44:22,080 --> 01:44:24,080
Speaker 1: just how I would start. I feel like if only

1742
01:44:24,120 --> 01:44:27,080
Speaker 1: I could write something so good that it could end

1743
01:44:27,080 --> 01:44:30,280
Speaker 1: with this and have it makes sense. I wrote a

1744
01:44:30,320 --> 01:44:32,680
Speaker 1: note down, I wrote this note of dialogue done. I'm

1745
01:44:32,680 --> 01:44:35,639
Speaker 1: gonna try to do something but eventually and it just

1746
01:44:35,880 --> 01:44:39,040
Speaker 1: just in quotes. It's just a u ass whole Did

1747
01:44:39,120 --> 01:44:43,200
Speaker 1: you dictate this? I don't know where is that going?

1748
01:44:45,120 --> 01:44:50,479
Speaker 1: But it has energy. You know, well, this is the

1749
01:44:50,479 --> 01:44:52,679
Speaker 1: perfect way to get out of the interview. Stay tuned

1750
01:44:53,320 --> 01:44:55,760
Speaker 1: as you read the life's work of Tom mcwayne and

1751
01:44:55,800 --> 01:44:59,120
Speaker 1: watch for that line and you'll have a feeling of

1752
01:44:59,640 --> 01:45:04,160
Speaker 1: coming full circle back to this. But seriously, thank you

1753
01:45:04,800 --> 01:45:08,320
Speaker 1: for coming on. Appreciate it. I appreciate it, and I

1754
01:45:09,000 --> 01:45:11,160
Speaker 1: am kind of a fan of what you do. Keep

1755
01:45:11,200 --> 01:45:13,800
Speaker 1: it as loose as it as it has been, and

1756
01:45:14,360 --> 01:45:16,640
Speaker 1: the only way you can be sure of. That is

1757
01:45:16,640 --> 01:45:21,880
Speaker 1: when you realize how many enemies he requires. There's a

1758
01:45:21,880 --> 01:45:24,960
Speaker 1: couple out there. Yeah, I'm sure. Well, thank you again,

1759
01:45:25,040 --> 01:45:26,759
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Okay, my pleasure.