1
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:07,640
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grease.

2
00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,120
Speaker 2: Have you ever cheated death? I have. I can think

3
00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:22,760
Speaker 2: of twice. Once when a witness pulled a long gun

4
00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,880
Speaker 2: on me and my investigator and I jumped off a porch,

5
00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:30,840
Speaker 2: and the other when I nearly drowned and my now

6
00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,960
Speaker 2: husband save me. I can think of those two times

7
00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:40,760
Speaker 2: I cheated death. There are a lot of near hit stories,

8
00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:45,400
Speaker 2: aren't there. Well, you are about to meet a woman

9
00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:52,200
Speaker 2: who has, without a doubt, cheated death. In the fore

10
00:00:52,360 --> 00:01:00,360
Speaker 2: ofb B t K bide torture kill, the dog actually

11
00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:09,160
Speaker 2: turned serial killer Dennis Raider. That's right. This woman met

12
00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:14,560
Speaker 2: up with him for a date of sorts. She got

13
00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:19,120
Speaker 2: a sixth sense just before they left alone, and she

14
00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:25,319
Speaker 2: lived to tell the story. And this is coming out now.

15
00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:31,880
Speaker 2: Apparently the dogcatcher turned serial killer believed investigations into him

16
00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:39,679
Speaker 2: were cooling off, just days before Sheriff Eddie Verdin announces

17
00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:46,160
Speaker 2: a national task force to connect him to unsolved cold cases. Now,

18
00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:52,360
Speaker 2: remember BTK, Dennis Raider is lounging right now while we're

19
00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,280
Speaker 2: all working. He's lounging, getting three hots in a cot,

20
00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,800
Speaker 2: no threat of the death penalty, riding his memoirs, speaking

21
00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,360
Speaker 2: to authors and admirers who have apparently fallen under his spell. Yes,

22
00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:11,240
Speaker 2: that's true. He's lounging right now, but watch out BTK

23
00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:17,359
Speaker 2: because some jurisdictions still have the death penalty. Talking about

24
00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:22,160
Speaker 2: old Sparky the needle. Don't get too comfy. I mean

25
00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,840
Speaker 2: to see grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for

26
00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:27,480
Speaker 2: being with us here on crime stories and on serious

27
00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:33,560
Speaker 2: x SEM one eleven. First of all, take a listen

28
00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:34,519
Speaker 2: to this.

29
00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,200
Speaker 3: During an investigation, investigators do not like to share information

30
00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,400
Speaker 3: with the media because they don't want anything to jeopardize

31
00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:44,359
Speaker 3: the investigation. However, unless you're in the media or law enforcement,

32
00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,040
Speaker 3: you might not know what can be released to the public.

33
00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,160
Speaker 3: So home owners of property in Butler County, Kansas, say

34
00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,240
Speaker 3: sheriff's deputies and investigators were on their property for seven

35
00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:56,040
Speaker 3: hours looking for evidence related to a missing person's case.

36
00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,200
Speaker 3: They couldn't remember the name of the person they were

37
00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,680
Speaker 3: looking for, but they did remember them with sixteen. Cynthia

38
00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,040
Speaker 3: don Kenney was sixteen when she vanished. The property owners

39
00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,320
Speaker 3: added that the Osh County Sheriff's Office came to the

40
00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,679
Speaker 3: property in March. At that time, search dogs were brought out,

41
00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,000
Speaker 3: but the property owners saying nothing was found. Elena Burrows

42
00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:18,400
Speaker 3: with CSI Crime Scene Confidential told KSNTV quote, we have

43
00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,280
Speaker 3: received information that Dennis Raider has been on this property

44
00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,639
Speaker 3: at some point in time. The National BTK Task Force

45
00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:26,320
Speaker 3: is here to follow up on those lead.

46
00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,800
Speaker 2: This as one of three women depicted in sketches made

47
00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:36,320
Speaker 2: by BTK Dennis Raider showing girls bound and little shorty

48
00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:43,440
Speaker 2: nightgown looking outfits, is positively identified. One of his drawings.

49
00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:48,200
Speaker 2: He would apparently take photos of himself dressed in the

50
00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,880
Speaker 2: victim's clothes, wearing wigs, he would wear makeup, and he

51
00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:59,920
Speaker 2: would bind himself and take selfies. Then he would all

52
00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,040
Speaker 2: to sketch draw what we believe to be some of

53
00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:10,800
Speaker 2: his still unidentified victims bound about to be tortured and killed.

54
00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:16,520
Speaker 2: But right now a woman who I believe truly cheated death.

55
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,360
Speaker 2: An angel was there with her when she parted ways

56
00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,800
Speaker 2: with Dennis Raider. Gina Rodriguez is with us and she

57
00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,440
Speaker 2: is telling you her story. Also with us, who will

58
00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:34,280
Speaker 2: be weighing in renowned Sheriff Eddie Verden, who has assembled

59
00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:38,520
Speaker 2: the BTK National Task Force. Cheryl McCollum, a member of

60
00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:45,320
Speaker 2: the task Force forensic expert star of Zone seven, and

61
00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,760
Speaker 2: you can find her at Coldcasecrimes dot org. She's the

62
00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,960
Speaker 2: founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Doctor

63
00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:57,800
Speaker 2: Joni Johnson a forensic psychologist and investigator and high profile

64
00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:02,640
Speaker 2: trial lawyer out of the Jacksonville jurisdiction. Dale Carson, Why

65
00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:07,159
Speaker 2: is he here? He's also a former FBI agent. But

66
00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,040
Speaker 2: first to our special guest, Gina Rodriguez, Ms. Rodriguez, thank

67
00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:11,920
Speaker 2: you for being with us.

68
00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:13,839
Speaker 4: I'm glad to be able to speak.

69
00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,240
Speaker 2: Boy am I glad to hear your voice because you're

70
00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:24,080
Speaker 2: the first known survivor that can tell me about BTK.

71
00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:33,200
Speaker 2: Everybody else is dead in horrible, horrible fashion. Gina, you

72
00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:40,360
Speaker 2: have no idea how important your testimony, your story could be.

73
00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:47,919
Speaker 2: It may help other women jog their memories. Tell me

74
00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,839
Speaker 2: about when you met Dennis Rader.

75
00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,320
Speaker 4: It was February of nineteen seventy four and my co workers,

76
00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,600
Speaker 4: we were nurses at a local hospital and after our

77
00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:02,640
Speaker 4: evening shift, we would go to this disco bar just

78
00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,320
Speaker 4: to chill out before we went home to call it

79
00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,640
Speaker 4: a day. And it was a Saturday night and one

80
00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,159
Speaker 4: of my co workers and I we were we had

81
00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,479
Speaker 4: the evening off the weekend off, so we decided we

82
00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,240
Speaker 4: would go to this disco bar that was connected to

83
00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:26,640
Speaker 4: a hotel. And I'm sitting there with her and she

84
00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:31,360
Speaker 4: goes out to dance, leaving me sitting alone. And this

85
00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,200
Speaker 4: man that I had watched, he was pacing back and forth.

86
00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,680
Speaker 4: He wore a maroon suit and had on white shoes.

87
00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,560
Speaker 4: He came over to ask me to dance, and it

88
00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:46,080
Speaker 4: was a slow dance, and he talked to me and

89
00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,320
Speaker 4: he's asked me what my name was, and told me,

90
00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:54,800
Speaker 4: tell me about yourself, which I did, and I just

91
00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,680
Speaker 4: told him that you know my age, and that I

92
00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:04,240
Speaker 4: was just recently and where I worked. And then I said, well,

93
00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:06,400
Speaker 4: tell me about yourself. What is your name? And he

94
00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:13,200
Speaker 4: said Bob White. And he's trying to explain to me

95
00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,600
Speaker 4: why he has white shoes on. He said people he

96
00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,120
Speaker 4: wore white shoes had him on because he lived in

97
00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:24,080
Speaker 4: California and the people in California wore white shoes all

98
00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:31,520
Speaker 4: year round. And then the dance, well, first of all,

99
00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,160
Speaker 4: I said, well, what kind of business are you here

100
00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,120
Speaker 4: in which it on He said one word to me,

101
00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,560
Speaker 4: He said McConnell, and that's an air Force space here.

102
00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:47,840
Speaker 4: So he escursed me back to my chair after the dance,

103
00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,000
Speaker 4: and in a little bit he comes over. He tells

104
00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:53,600
Speaker 4: me he has to leave, but he said he would

105
00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,720
Speaker 4: like to see me again. And against my better judgment,

106
00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,960
Speaker 4: I've never been taught to do this, I gave you

107
00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:05,000
Speaker 4: my phone numbers, so and he told me he would

108
00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:08,640
Speaker 4: call me on a Tuesday. That was the day I

109
00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,400
Speaker 4: had to return to work evening shift. He calls me

110
00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:17,880
Speaker 4: and we agreed to meet at a restaurant. This restaurant

111
00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,560
Speaker 4: was in a mall, a very popular mall, just down

112
00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:25,720
Speaker 4: the street from the hospital. He tells me he might

113
00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,720
Speaker 4: be a little late, but I was. I arrived at

114
00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,640
Speaker 4: one around one pm, and when I go in, I'm

115
00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:34,880
Speaker 4: expecting to be there first because he told me he

116
00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,440
Speaker 4: might be late. Well, when I walked in there he

117
00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:43,640
Speaker 4: was standing there waiting for me, and he was totally different.

118
00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,680
Speaker 4: He did not even look like the same man. He

119
00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:51,520
Speaker 4: was dressed in what I would call work clothes that

120
00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,920
Speaker 4: someone would be working out in the cold. He had

121
00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:03,480
Speaker 4: a hat on that had ear flap flaps to protect

122
00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,719
Speaker 4: the ears. He had like a heavy jacket. He had

123
00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,560
Speaker 4: gloves on. He had I believe khaki pants and boots

124
00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,800
Speaker 4: and he had a bag with him that looked out

125
00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,320
Speaker 4: of place, and I looked at it and he told

126
00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:21,720
Speaker 4: me that that it had his books in it. And

127
00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,040
Speaker 4: I said, well, I thought you had said you might

128
00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,880
Speaker 4: be late, and he said yes, I had to take

129
00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:30,800
Speaker 4: a bus all the way down hillside Grim w su

130
00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,120
Speaker 4: You know, I couldn't help. But notice he had a

131
00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,000
Speaker 4: very expensive wristwatch.

132
00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:55,280
Speaker 1: On time stories with Nancy Grace, Guys with us, you

133
00:09:55,320 --> 00:10:00,840
Speaker 1: are hearing Gina Rodriguez, who many, including my self, believe,

134
00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:06,760
Speaker 1: cheated death on not one but two encounters with the

135
00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:11,400
Speaker 1: Dennis Raider, the dogcatcher turned serial killer commonly known as

136
00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,559
Speaker 1: BTK bind torture Kill.

137
00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,400
Speaker 2: Now, Gina, you've told us this was feb February nineteen

138
00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:24,480
Speaker 2: seventy four. You and your friends, your fellow nurses, often

139
00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:29,160
Speaker 2: would stop by a disco after work, especially on weekends,

140
00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:33,640
Speaker 2: to basically decompress. This night, you go to the disco.

141
00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,079
Speaker 2: It's connected to a hotel. Your friend gets up to dance,

142
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:40,800
Speaker 2: leaving you alone. You are approached by a man you

143
00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,079
Speaker 2: now know to be Dennis Raider. You had seen him

144
00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,640
Speaker 2: pacing back and forth in the disco. He approaches you

145
00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:52,560
Speaker 2: wearing a maroon suit and white shoes, which you distinctly recall.

146
00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:58,200
Speaker 2: He gave a name, Bob White, which sounds like a

147
00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,640
Speaker 2: fake name. But that said, he explained he was wearing

148
00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,200
Speaker 2: white shoes because he was from California and quote, people

149
00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:11,240
Speaker 2: in California wear white shoes all year long. Okay, You

150
00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,840
Speaker 2: uncharacteristically give him your phone number when he had to leave.

151
00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,560
Speaker 2: Then you agree to meet him for lunch at a

152
00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,880
Speaker 2: restaurant near the hospital in a popular mall. Smart, there

153
00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:23,880
Speaker 2: are a lot of people around. You thought he was

154
00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,120
Speaker 2: going to be late. You arrive around one pm. He's there,

155
00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,840
Speaker 2: but this time, no mouran suit of white shoes. He

156
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,200
Speaker 2: looks completely different, as if he had changed his whole

157
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,720
Speaker 2: to meet his whole look for you, he was wearing

158
00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,880
Speaker 2: work clothes with a big bag, a hat with flaps

159
00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:46,840
Speaker 2: over the ears, a heavy jacket as if he were

160
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:51,000
Speaker 2: working out in the cold. He says. He takes a

161
00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:55,280
Speaker 2: bus all the way down from WSU. What in your

162
00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:57,040
Speaker 2: area is WSU?

163
00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:03,400
Speaker 4: It's Wichita State University. Hillside is a very popular street,

164
00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:04,240
Speaker 4: well traveled.

165
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,680
Speaker 2: So he took a bus, he says, from Hillside to

166
00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:09,600
Speaker 2: meet you at the mall. What mall was it?

167
00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:14,800
Speaker 4: Harry Street mall. It's just east of Saint Joseph Hospital.

168
00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,080
Speaker 2: Okay, so you're at launch. What happens?

169
00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:24,760
Speaker 4: We'd go to sit down, and by then I'm becoming

170
00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:29,800
Speaker 4: really nervous because it wasn't like I had remembered him

171
00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,800
Speaker 4: at all. I even thought, do I have the right man?

172
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,080
Speaker 4: But he seemed to recognize me. So we sit down

173
00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:42,960
Speaker 4: and he starts some conversation about a parochial school and

174
00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,360
Speaker 4: tells me he hated them because he was once in

175
00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,400
Speaker 4: an orban age. And then it leads on into he

176
00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:56,240
Speaker 4: asked me, he said, He said, who do you live with?

177
00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,800
Speaker 4: And he wanted specifically who I live with? I told

178
00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:04,079
Speaker 4: him my mother, my dad, my two children, and my brother.

179
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,280
Speaker 4: He said, is there ever any time that you're alone?

180
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,959
Speaker 4: And I said no, people are around me all the time.

181
00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,640
Speaker 4: So we have a little bit more conversation, and then

182
00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,800
Speaker 4: he said, do you know of a place that we

183
00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:25,000
Speaker 4: can be alone? He said, he said, because I do

184
00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,959
Speaker 4: these things, or we are going to be doing some

185
00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,960
Speaker 4: things that no one can see here or know about.

186
00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:37,080
Speaker 4: And I insisted I didn't know of any place. Then

187
00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,040
Speaker 4: we go on into the conversation. He tells me that

188
00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:46,880
Speaker 4: he does photography, and that he uses a polaroid, and

189
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:51,360
Speaker 4: that he often did some of these things at his

190
00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,800
Speaker 4: parents house. He never mentioned California again.

191
00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,120
Speaker 2: Where did he indicate his parents were.

192
00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,640
Speaker 4: He didn't indicate. I just assume California. But you know, now,

193
00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:07,640
Speaker 4: I know his parents were in Wichita, and his parents

194
00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:17,720
Speaker 4: lived in Wichita around Cynica Street. So then we changed

195
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,480
Speaker 4: the conversation. That gets kind of it's hard to have

196
00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:24,200
Speaker 4: conversation with him, and I realized I was too afraid

197
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:24,680
Speaker 4: to leave.

198
00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,200
Speaker 2: What do you mean by that, you're too afraid to live?

199
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,360
Speaker 4: I was afraid that if I tried to leave, he

200
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,800
Speaker 4: would follow me and maybe get me alone. I was

201
00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,400
Speaker 4: really afraid. So I thought, you're going to have to

202
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,080
Speaker 4: sit here until it's time for you to go to work.

203
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,640
Speaker 4: So I thought, I've got a lot of conversation to

204
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:48,080
Speaker 4: try to make with him. So it there was pauses,

205
00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:52,760
Speaker 4: and suddenly he appears very upset and he says to me,

206
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,560
Speaker 4: I have a problem with this city. And I'm thinking, well,

207
00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:01,120
Speaker 4: you're from California, And I said, well, what kind the problem?

208
00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:07,360
Speaker 4: And he said city politics? And me, I was just

209
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:11,520
Speaker 4: trying to make conversation about things in Wichita and I said,

210
00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,000
Speaker 4: did you hear about that family that was murdered a

211
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:19,880
Speaker 4: few weeks ago? And he says, yeah, there was They

212
00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:24,680
Speaker 4: found a bootprint in the snow outside the window. And

213
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,320
Speaker 4: then she said and yeah, the detective sure had amestic

214
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:33,120
Speaker 4: clean up. And I said, oh. I said, well, how

215
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,880
Speaker 4: would you know that? I said, do you work with

216
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,720
Speaker 4: law enforcement? And he said no, And I said, well

217
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,120
Speaker 4: how did you know that then? And he said, the

218
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:50,600
Speaker 4: chief of security at WSU. And so we talk about

219
00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,680
Speaker 4: a few more things, and suddenly he gets angry or

220
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:59,080
Speaker 4: looks angry with me, and he said, you find a

221
00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:04,280
Speaker 4: place because I do these things, and I take pictures

222
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,280
Speaker 4: and record while I'm doing them. And then he indicates

223
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,680
Speaker 4: that the bag he had with me that was sitting

224
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,080
Speaker 4: on the floor in the rest or. He says, I

225
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:19,360
Speaker 4: have my things, my equipment, and in this bag and

226
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:24,560
Speaker 4: I'm sitting there, you know, just frightened and thinking how

227
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,920
Speaker 4: am I going to get out of here? And so

228
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:33,920
Speaker 4: we have some more conversation, and he he asked me

229
00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:40,320
Speaker 4: if he said he had to go to Helsburg's, which

230
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,880
Speaker 4: was a jewelry store in the mall, to visit her friend.

231
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,080
Speaker 4: And he called her by name and said do you

232
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,680
Speaker 4: know her? And I said no, I didn't know her.

233
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:59,560
Speaker 4: And finally it's really, I'm really I have to leave.

234
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,320
Speaker 4: It's I'm almost late for work. And I jumped up

235
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,080
Speaker 4: real abruptly. I think I ran out of the restaurant.

236
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,159
Speaker 4: I don't know if the coffee was even paid for,

237
00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,879
Speaker 4: but I start on my way to the car and

238
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,440
Speaker 4: he follows me, and I looked up put my hand

239
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,360
Speaker 4: up like stop. I said, I'm going to be late

240
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,840
Speaker 4: for work, and he said, well, i'll call you on Thursday,

241
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,479
Speaker 4: and I thought, okay, I've got to come up with

242
00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,280
Speaker 4: an excuse before then. Then he tells me he's going

243
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,679
Speaker 4: back into the mall to go visit his friend at Helsburt's.

244
00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,240
Speaker 4: So I go on to work, and two days later

245
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:42,439
Speaker 4: it's Valentine's Day. I remember that specifically. It was my

246
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,760
Speaker 4: first Valentine's after my husband left me. And when he

247
00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,679
Speaker 4: calls me at one o'clock, I promptly tell him I

248
00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:54,280
Speaker 4: can't see you again. I am taking my husband back.

249
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:59,720
Speaker 4: My kids really need him, and sarcastically, he says, this.

250
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:00,720
Speaker 5: Pull them to me.

251
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:05,040
Speaker 4: It's something about little lady in a shoe locking up

252
00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:08,160
Speaker 4: and tying up my kids and I said, well, what

253
00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,600
Speaker 4: do you mean by that? What is that supposed to mean?

254
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,720
Speaker 4: And he said, well, you know, little lady can't handle

255
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,080
Speaker 4: her kids, so she has to take Pubby back. And

256
00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:21,040
Speaker 4: shortly after that, I said, well I have to go,

257
00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:27,040
Speaker 4: and he said, oh, Gina, and I said yes, and

258
00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:32,040
Speaker 4: he said roses are red peonies or pink. I cannot

259
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,040
Speaker 4: remember the third line, but the fourth line was I'll

260
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,600
Speaker 4: sure be blue without you. And we hung up. And

261
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:44,440
Speaker 4: I thought about this man, but I always pictured him

262
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:49,240
Speaker 4: being back in California, and when something would happen in Wichita,

263
00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,280
Speaker 4: I would think that we wuld think, oh, no, he's

264
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:59,960
Speaker 4: in California. Well, then things around a few years. Well, god,

265
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:05,000
Speaker 4: take this back two years from that date. And I

266
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,960
Speaker 4: don't know who this was, but my husband and I

267
00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,400
Speaker 4: I had taken him back. We went to a Valentine

268
00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:18,120
Speaker 4: party at a sorority and my babysitter her parents were

269
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,720
Speaker 4: gonna be at the same party, and they asked me

270
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,440
Speaker 4: if my babysitter could spend the night with us because

271
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,720
Speaker 4: they were going to be out really late. I said

272
00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,399
Speaker 4: that would be fine. Well, we went to the party.

273
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,480
Speaker 4: When I come back, we walk in the door, I

274
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:37,080
Speaker 4: meet the babysitter. There's tears in her eyes, her lip

275
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:42,280
Speaker 4: is trembling. She said, there's been a man calling for

276
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:48,040
Speaker 4: you all evening long, keeps asking for you. And she said,

277
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,840
Speaker 4: I looked out the window and there was a man

278
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,840
Speaker 4: standing in your yard. And I don't know if I

279
00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,119
Speaker 4: just had a false sense of security. I can't remember,

280
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,680
Speaker 4: but I knew my husband was there and that things

281
00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,320
Speaker 4: would probably be okay. We didn't see anything unusual when

282
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,880
Speaker 4: we pulled in the drive. So we all go to bed.

283
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:13,360
Speaker 4: My babysitter sleeping on the couch, My children are sleeping

284
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,879
Speaker 4: in their rooms. And about two fifteen, two thirty, I

285
00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,680
Speaker 4: wake up and I hear a car pulling in the drive.

286
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:25,600
Speaker 4: You can hear the there's crackling from ice on the driveway,

287
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,199
Speaker 4: and I nudge my husband. I said, there's someone here,

288
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,879
Speaker 4: let me get it, because I didn't want anyone to

289
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 4: persuade anyone that they needed inside the house. So I

290
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:42,359
Speaker 4: go down the hallway and he's banging on the front door,

291
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,640
Speaker 4: and I said who is it? And they wouldn't say

292
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,439
Speaker 4: use any words. I said, who is it? What do

293
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,560
Speaker 4: you want? And they're just pounding on the door, but

294
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,520
Speaker 4: they're making a growling type sound like they were angry.

295
00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 4: And then when the door didn't get in the door,

296
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,919
Speaker 4: he reaches over to my living room window and is

297
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:08,880
Speaker 4: trying to get in that, and then he goes over

298
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 4: to my little girl's room and tries to get in there.

299
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:13,879
Speaker 2: Did you see his face?

300
00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 4: No, I didn't, but my little girl said she saw

301
00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 4: the shadow of him and it was a man. She

302
00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:26,359
Speaker 4: said there must have been a moon, a full moon,

303
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,040
Speaker 4: because she said I could see his shadow and he

304
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 4: was trying to get into my bedroom. And she said,

305
00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,920
Speaker 4: I was trying to tell you, but you were already

306
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:36,840
Speaker 4: down the hall.

307
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:40,680
Speaker 2: What month with this Advangaina?

308
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:46,120
Speaker 4: February of fourth around twelfth through the fourteenth, because we've

309
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,959
Speaker 4: been to a Valentine party and it was in nineteen

310
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 4: seventy six. It was two years later, almost to the.

311
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 2: Day got it.

312
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:57,760
Speaker 4: So I'm standing there just frozen, because by then this

313
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 4: person is at the front door and he sounds like

314
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,919
Speaker 4: he's using tools to try to get in through the doorknob,

315
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,919
Speaker 4: you know, like he's doing something to the doorknob. And

316
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 4: I thought, oh my god, they're trying to get in

317
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,120
Speaker 4: here anyway. And about that time, my husband flies down

318
00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 4: the hall and he said, get the hell out of here.

319
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,879
Speaker 4: I have a gun, and that person flew off the

320
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 4: porch and must have backed out of the drive. I

321
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,880
Speaker 4: don't even think I heard the cargo. And I did

322
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 4: call the police and tell him what had happened, and

323
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 4: they said, do you want us to come out? And

324
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 4: I said, oh, I guess it's not necessary. They're gone now.

325
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:45,640
Speaker 4: So that's pretty much. I mean, there were some other

326
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 4: things that happened in between there, things that I thought

327
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:55,600
Speaker 4: must be my imagination that uh I when I would

328
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,640
Speaker 4: come home from work, sometimes it seemed like someone had

329
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 4: been in my house. Things just didn't seem right. And

330
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:08,439
Speaker 4: I did I have a necklace that's missing that I

331
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 4: have been It's not an expensive necklace, but it had

332
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 4: been given to me for a Christmas present, and I

333
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 4: thought I might have some articles of clothing missing. And

334
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 4: at that point some point I had a driver's license missing,

335
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 4: but my purse. I always kept my driver's license in

336
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 4: my purse and I never was without it, So I

337
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,639
Speaker 4: don't know how anyone would have got access to my

338
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 4: driver's license.

339
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 2: When did this happen.

340
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 4: This would have happened between probably nineteen seventy four nineteen

341
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 4: seventy seven. If sometime during that it was probably it

342
00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 4: just kept happening on and off. Someone was called telling

343
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 4: me on the phone and they were playing that song

344
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 4: Laid Down Sally.

345
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 6: A lot.

346
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 4: And then some man kept calling and just harassing me,

347
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 4: and I kept saying, you've got the wrong number. Quit

348
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,880
Speaker 4: calling here, and I said, there's no Sally here, And

349
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 4: finally I told him I was going to call the

350
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 4: telephone company. And I call the telephone company, thought I

351
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 4: was talking to an employee making a complaint. And the

352
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 4: man that's been calling me every time I said you've

353
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 4: got the wrong number, he said, oh, I'm so sorry. Well,

354
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 4: when I was talking making the complaint, the employee or

355
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 4: what I thought wasn't in play, said oh, I'm so sorry.

356
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 4: And I mean, I thought, well, that's the man I'm

357
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 4: making the complaint about. At point, and I don't remember when.

358
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 4: I don't remember the time frames other than those dates

359
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 4: that I gave you. But somewhere in between this window,

360
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 4: some man knocked on my door. He said he was

361
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 4: from the phone company and that they had noticed trouble

362
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 4: on my line and that someone had tampered with my

363
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 4: phone lines outside my house.

364
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 2: Guys, you are hearing Gina Rodriguez, who met up with

365
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 2: Dennish writar Dennis Writer known as BTK buying Torture Kill,

366
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 2: and has lived to tell the tell Gina, Wendy, do

367
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 2: you realize that the man you had met not once,

368
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 2: but twice and possibly more unbeknownst to you, is in

369
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 2: fact Dennis Writer.

370
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 4: I began to get suspicious around nineteen seventy seven, when

371
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 4: the witch Talk. He started making information available, like Wichita

372
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 4: had a serial killer, and this is what he was, like,

373
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 4: this is what he did. They said he said poems

374
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 4: about his victims. And I thought, well, this man said

375
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 4: poems to me. And then when BTK said what shall

376
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 4: I call myself? Shall I call myself the Hillside Strangler?

377
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 4: Should I call myself the poetic strangler? Or should I

378
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 4: call myself BTK? Well I identified with that because he

379
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 4: had said poems to me. This man had he had

380
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 4: said he had to take a bus all the way

381
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 4: down W S U H. And I began getting suspicious.

382
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 4: But then I would say, no, that man's in California.

383
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 4: Shortly after that we moved to Arizona. But when I

384
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 4: would come back for a visit, I would ask everyone

385
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 4: what do you think happened? And they said, well, we

386
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 4: heard easy their imprisoner. He's dead, because it was just

387
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 4: so silent. And then in Arizona, about maybe thirty years later,

388
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 4: my daughter calls me. She's crying and she said, mother,

389
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 4: Btk's back And I said, oh, no, honey, I said

390
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,919
Speaker 4: that lawyer just made a book. And she says, no,

391
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 4: he's back. So I get on the internet. I look

392
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 4: and sure enough he has resurfaced. So they're asking for tips.

393
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 4: So I call on a Saturday morning and I give

394
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 4: my tips. I was sure I knew who they were

395
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 4: looking for by then, but I couldn't give him a

396
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 4: name because he told me his name was Bob White,

397
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 4: which you know, that's kind of a joke. Now I

398
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 4: fell for it, And so I was watching everything about

399
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 4: their investigations, and when they found him, I was waiting

400
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 4: on the pictures, and sure enough I seen his pictures

401
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 4: from what he looked like when I met him that day,

402
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 4: you know that that time frame. I seen his Medworth

403
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 4: County picture that was him. I looked at some of

404
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 4: his other pictures, just a little tiny older version of him,

405
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 4: and then his later vision but vision version. But I

406
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 4: watched him on his court trial. He walks like him,

407
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 4: he talks like him, he looks like him, just older,

408
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 4: you know, I mean, I can't think of any reason

409
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 4: why it wouldn't be.

410
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 2: When you saw his picture, yes, of his younger self.

411
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 2: Uh huh did you know that was Bob White? Absolutely

412
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 2: joining me right now is an all star panel to

413
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 2: make sense of what we have just heard from Gina

414
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 2: Rodriguez one hundred percent certain that she met up on

415
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: a date with BTK, not meeting him once, but twice.

416
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 2: First to now renown Sheriff Eddie Verdin. Sheriff Eddie Verdon,

417
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: I know that you and Cheryl, like myself are part

418
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 2: of the new National task Force, so I know there

419
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 2: are things that you can't discuss, such as ongoing things

420
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 2: right now, additional victims you're looking at. But what this woman,

421
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 2: Gino Driguez is telling you from his survivor's point of view,

422
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 2: should open up a world of possibilities as to other victims,

423
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 2: women that have gone missing and never been recovered in

424
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 2: this area during this time period. Because now we are

425
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: seeing it's not just him finding people on his dog

426
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 2: catching route, about him going to bars and finding women.

427
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 2: We are learning a whole new motors operend I'm method

428
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: of operation. What does this mean to you?

429
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 5: Share af Well, it's not surprising at all, Nancy. Right

430
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 5: right now, I'm looking at one of the items collected

431
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 5: back in two thousand and five in the search force,

432
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 5: so off one of his drawings, and he's got a

433
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 5: newspaper clipping or detective magazine clipper clipping that says a

434
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 5: tragedy and lover's laying naked nurse had a date with murder.

435
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 5: As you know, Hedge, I believe worked at the hospital.

436
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 5: I'm not sure if it's the same hospital, but my

437
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 5: understanding is she worked at the hospital or in the

438
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 5: medical field, in which tire as well. Who is this

439
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 5: edge one of his convicted victims.

440
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: Yes, And in my mind that connects Gina even more

441
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: so to BTK because apparently to you, Cheryl McCollum, that

442
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 2: was a hunting ground the nurses leaving the hospital at night.

443
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 7: Absolutely, he was known to stalk, he was known to

444
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 7: drive around, he was known to get fixated. The story

445
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 7: that she just told.

446
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 8: The reason it's so critical to me is when you

447
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 8: are looking at any cold case, as you well know,

448
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 8: is Nancy, you and I talk about this all the time,

449
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 8: people coming forward, additional witnesses helped fill in and build

450
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 8: that timeline. And what she's doing again, She's given us

451
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,280
Speaker 8: a date and a time and a location that this

452
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 8: that makes sense to us, and that is so critical

453
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 8: and I just appreciate Miss Rodriguez's bravery.

454
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 2: Prime stories With Nancy Grace, I want to talk about

455
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 2: Marine Hedge, who is a course another victim of bt

456
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 2: K sheriff that is a case that has already been adjudicated.

457
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 2: What can you tell us about that specifically? Interested in

458
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 2: similarities between Marine Hedges case and what Gina Rodriguez is

459
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: telling us.

460
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 5: Well, I mean she worked at a hospital, as my understanding,

461
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:20,959
Speaker 5: a widow.

462
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 2: I know that without a husband at home, which is

463
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 2: one of the things that he was asking Gina, who's

464
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 2: at home with you?

465
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 5: There's so many similarities in many of his cases. You know,

466
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 5: numerous times we find newspaper clippings or detective magazine articles

467
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 5: that he kept and saved with his trophies and with

468
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 5: his drawings, and you can associate crimes or similar crimes

469
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 5: to those. You know. One thing we located was a

470
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 5: clipping where it says when fantasies become reality.

471
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,959
Speaker 2: Sheriff Verdin, isn't it true that in Marine Hedges case,

472
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 2: we learned that her phone connection the phone line had

473
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 2: been cut. The phone line was cut that allowed demistrator

474
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 2: to sneak in the back door.

475
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 5: Yes, you know he cut on a lot of the

476
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 5: convicted cases. He cut the phone lines.

477
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 2: Okay, Gina Rodriguez, I know you've made the id of BTK,

478
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 2: and I know that the phone company told you your

479
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 2: line had been tampered with. When you hear that this

480
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 2: is an mo specifically as it relates to Marine Hedge,

481
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 2: but others as well, what goes through your mind, Berett.

482
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 4: That was one of his things that he did was

483
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 4: cut or messed the telephone lines and played games on

484
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 4: the phone to you.

485
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,479
Speaker 2: Cheryl McCollum, I got to tell you many of the

486
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 2: things that Gina has just told us. I don't know

487
00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 2: that she realizes. You know, when you have a victim

488
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 2: telling their story, they're telling you their individual story while

489
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 2: we as prosecutors or investigators are connecting all these dots

490
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 2: to other similar cases, fingerprint cases. The fact that her

491
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 2: children were there, the fact that he thought maybe her

492
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 2: husband was back, maybe maybe not. That would not have

493
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: concerned b t K the fact that she may be

494
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,399
Speaker 2: there with children, and my mind would only it would

495
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 2: be even more incendiary to him. He would kill a

496
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 2: whole family no problem, and molest and kill the children

497
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:41,959
Speaker 2: as well, specifically going for the mother.

498
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 7: Well, when you look at the head case and what

499
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 7: Miss Rodriguez is telling us, Dennis Rader lived in the

500
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 7: same community as Miss Hedge, so it was easy for

501
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 7: him to keep an eye on her, even very casually

502
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 7: she's working in her yard, they're passing each other.

503
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 2: He lived on the same block as hev.

504
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 7: Absolutely so what with miss Rodriguez, what she's painting this

505
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,959
Speaker 7: picture is with the phone calls and perhaps going by there,

506
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,919
Speaker 7: it could very well be a similar mo that he's

507
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 7: keeping tabs on her. He's playing this cat and mouse

508
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 7: where I can catch you and let you go anytime.

509
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 7: I won't until I decide it's time to kill you.

510
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 2: Take a listen to Dennis Writer in his own words.

511
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 9: She was chosen. I went through the different phases stalking face,

512
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 9: and since she lived down the street from me, I

513
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 9: could watch coming going quite easily. As before I was

514
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 9: going to have a sexual fantasy, so I brought my

515
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 9: hit kit and lo and behold, her car was there.

516
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 9: I thought, gee, she's not supposed to be home. So

517
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 9: I very carefully snuck into the house kind of like

518
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 9: a cat burglar, and after checking the house, she wasn't there.

519
00:35:54,800 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 9: So about that time the doors rattled, So went back

520
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 9: to one of the bedrooms and hit back there in

521
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 9: one of the bedrooms, she came in with a male visitor.

522
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 6: He left.

523
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 9: I waited till a three hours in the morning, and

524
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 9: then proceeded to speak into her bedroom and flip the

525
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 9: lights on what looked like or I think the bathroom lights.

526
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 9: I just though, didn't want to flip her lights on,

527
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 9: and and she screamed and jump on the bed and

528
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 9: strangled her.

529
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 10: Manually, she indicated, this woman lived down the street from you.

530
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 4: Did she know you?

531
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 9: Casually we walked by and wave. She liked to work

532
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 9: in her yard as well as I like to work.

533
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 9: It's just a neighborly type thing. Wasn't anything personal. I mean,

534
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 9: just a neighbor.

535
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 2: You know. There's so many similarities between what Gina Rodriguez

536
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 2: is telling us and what we know about BTK joining

537
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,800
Speaker 2: me right now. Former FBI agent for a police officer

538
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 2: in Miami Day, author of Arrest Proof Yourself. You can

539
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 2: find him at del cars at law dot com Dale

540
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 2: jump in.

541
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 6: You know, Gina's of the facts is so precise that

542
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 6: it leads me to believe that she really was frightened

543
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 6: when she met that individual, and as a result, it's

544
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 6: concentrated that memory in a way that's immutable. Now I

545
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 6: find that just absolutely fascinating that she went through this

546
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 6: ritualization of conversation with him where he lays out all

547
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 6: the parameters. He's in a bar and he is looking

548
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 6: for potential victims. And what I find really fascinating is

549
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 6: that this same methodology got more complex as time went on,

550
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 6: as we know from the other cases. And frankly, this

551
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 6: tells me that there are many other victims who may

552
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 6: have had a close call with this sort of encounter

553
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 6: with the individual, who may, now, as Magic Cheryl says,

554
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 6: come forward and recount similar circumstances. Another really interesting point

555
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 6: is that bt K said.

556
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,240
Speaker 5: Look, tell me where we can go.

557
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 6: To be private. He's not setting up an advance where

558
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 6: they're going to go. He's asking the victim to tell

559
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 6: him where it is they can go to find some primisy.

560
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 6: And that's a new aspect altogether. It from my perspective, and.

561
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 2: We know a new hunting ground and discos and clubs

562
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 2: near that hospital.

563
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 6: If that's an ordinary hunting ground for serial killers, I

564
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,439
Speaker 6: mean they set a pattern, that's where they find them.

565
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 6: I mean we see this with Bundy. We see the

566
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 6: similarities between the two killers. And you know, if the

567
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:41,120
Speaker 6: evidence would find that Jana's necklace, it would be really

568
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 6: fascinating if he saved that as a trophy, that would

569
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 6: tie things together even more directly. But I think that

570
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,439
Speaker 6: Cheryl does that this is going to bring forth other

571
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 6: witnesses that may be able to give him a timeline

572
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 6: of where he was, what he was doing, and what

573
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 6: his methodology was, because his methodology is something when generally

574
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 6: need to be aware of. I mean, you know, no

575
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 6: disrespect to you, but there were a whole bunch of

576
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 6: red flags that flew in your face that you sort

577
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 6: of ignored. And the result of that is I think

578
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 6: that we all want to believe the best of people.

579
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 2: Hold on, Dale Carson. Not everybody is like you or me,

580
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:25,959
Speaker 2: or Sheriff Verdon or Cheryl. We're in this business. I'm

581
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 2: constantly on alert when I wake up in the morning,

582
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 2: when I go to a hotel, the first thing I

583
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 2: do is look under the bed. I mean, that's the

584
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,400
Speaker 2: way we live, right, because that's what we're used to.

585
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 2: But normal people, not in this business, they don't do that, Fyi,

586
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 2: dal Carson.

587
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 6: That's why they're at such risk and why we need

588
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 6: to educate people that when these red flags appear to

589
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 6: take a step back, true, because they're clearly endangered.

590
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,040
Speaker 2: True in my view, Doctor Joni Johnson with US forensic

591
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 2: psychologists and private investigator, author of Serial Killers one hundred

592
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 2: and one question is true crime fans ask doctor Joni

593
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 2: Johnson way in.

594
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 10: Well, several things just jump in my mind. Being this

595
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 10: was nineteen seventy four, I'm not sure that even you know,

596
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 10: I would have been cautious or certainly as cautious as

597
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 10: I am now. I think there's been a tremendous amount

598
00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 10: of progress made in terms of educating people about dangers

599
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 10: and safety and those kinds of things. And I guess

600
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 10: the other thing is, you know, that first encounter, Gina,

601
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 10: that you had with mister White didn't Yeah, nothing seemed

602
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 10: particularly off about it. It doesn't seem like and then

603
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 10: when you met him again, I can only imagine a

604
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 10: shocking it must have been just to see this person

605
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 10: who doesn't even you know, look the same, act the

606
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 10: same or anything like that. So I have to kind

607
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,840
Speaker 10: of take the opposite of, uh, you know, opinion of

608
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 10: Dale to suth extent, and that I think you did

609
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 10: see a kind of red slides, and I think you

610
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 10: you listen to them, you know, in terms of thinking

611
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 10: of ways to get out of that lunch with him

612
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 10: being afraid. The detail that you used, just like Dale

613
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,320
Speaker 10: saying the detail that you use and describing your memories

614
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 10: of that, to me are so credible because I think

615
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 10: when people have a strong emotions in a situation and

616
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,760
Speaker 10: clearly you are afraid, they do rember things. Remember details,

617
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 10: the white shoes, the suit, the things you said, I mean,

618
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 10: everything that you're telling me, you know, just reaks the credibility.

619
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 10: And so those are the two things that pop to

620
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 10: mind immediately. But you know, I do think that again,

621
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 10: just to kind of reiterate that, you know, red flags,

622
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 10: you know, can be waving, and we're all different terms

623
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,440
Speaker 10: when we recognize that. But I don't know that that

624
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 10: I see anything or heard the thing from what you

625
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 10: did that makes me feel like you put yourself in

626
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 10: any unnecessary danger, you know, giving your phone out to

627
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 10: somebody that you just met. I think we've all done

628
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 10: that at certain points, hopefully not anymore. But other than that,

629
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 10: I think that you know, you take me to take

630
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 10: some credit for the fact that you did listen to

631
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 10: your instinct.

632
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:57,919
Speaker 2: Please join us again tomorrow for part two. Gina Rodriguez,

633
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 2: who gives her story of her encounter with bt K

634
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 2: by torture kill Dennis Rader. She is the woman who

635
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: lived Goodbye Friend,