Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2: On today's Therapy Thursday, We've got an episode of love
Speaker 2: with doctor Gloria Horseley and doctor Frank Powers. They are
Speaker 2: such a cute couple and they have a new book
Speaker 2: coming out called Open to Love, the Secrets of Senior Dating.
Speaker 2: It's going to be releasing on Valentine's Day. But let's
Speaker 2: get a little look into what it takes to have
Speaker 2: a great love.
Speaker 3: Hi, Hey, Janna, Hi.
Speaker 2: I mean I'm talking to doctors. This is cool. I
Speaker 2: like this.
Speaker 3: Exactly.
Speaker 2: How are you guys doing?
Speaker 4: Wait?
Speaker 2: Where are you guys? Where do you guys live at?
Speaker 3: We are right now in Arizona, in Scottsdale and Palo Alto, California.
Speaker 3: It's kind of home.
Speaker 2: Base, Okay. I shot a movie in Arizona this past
Speaker 2: summer and it was so hot, but it was it
Speaker 2: was so cute. We were in Patagonia, like this cute
Speaker 2: little small town.
Speaker 3: I ever been there, No, my grandkids have been there.
Speaker 2: It's a door. It's really it's a really cute town.
Speaker 2: It's just I was about fourteen fifteen weeks pregnant when
Speaker 2: I was filming it, and then just like that that
Speaker 2: dry heat. I was like, whoa, Oh my god, it's
Speaker 2: a hot one.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 3: Being pregnant and being there, whoa.
Speaker 2: I mean, lots of people do it. I'm sure a
Speaker 2: lot of pregnant women live in Arizona. Yeah. But okay,
Speaker 2: So you guys have a book coming out. It's called
Speaker 2: Open to Love. It's a Secrets of Senior Dating. And
Speaker 2: I just, first of all, how long have you guys
Speaker 2: been together?
Speaker 4: For?
Speaker 3: Two years?
Speaker 2: Two years? Okay? Because I saw on the notes that
Speaker 2: you were widowed for what sixty years?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I was married for sixty years and my husband
Speaker 3: died of a staff in fiction after back surgery.
Speaker 2: Wow. And then how did you guys meet?
Speaker 3: Well, it's kind of my backstory. I after my husband died,
Speaker 3: I so it was that therapist at the time, and
Speaker 3: I decided to go into a grief group support group.
Speaker 3: And I went into the group and I met a
Speaker 3: guy who was a golfer. I met Abbot Golfer, and
Speaker 3: we started dating and we were dating for a while,
Speaker 3: and then he ended up moving in with me. And
Speaker 3: you know, it was great being with somebody, but he
Speaker 3: was pretty controlling and ups and downs, but I stayed
Speaker 3: in the relationship because you know, we golfed and he
Speaker 3: was a great guy. His wife had died a couple
Speaker 3: of days after my husband, So at Christmas time, we've
Speaker 3: been together for about seven or eight months, and a
Speaker 3: Christmas time, a twenty seven of my family members went
Speaker 3: to Hawaii over Christmas and he came with us. Steve
Speaker 3: and I stayed a little bit longer, which he wasn't
Speaker 3: happy about, and you know, he was welcome to stay,
Speaker 3: but he didn't want to. So he left and went
Speaker 3: home to our where we were living. And I got
Speaker 3: a note from him when he when he after he
Speaker 3: got home, and he said, oh, by the way, it's
Speaker 3: not working out for me and it's too much.
Speaker 4: And he.
Speaker 3: Ghosted me.
Speaker 2: How old were you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he said, I'm leaving the key to the house.
Speaker 3: And we had a joint bank account, closed our bank
Speaker 3: account and I'm sorry it didn't work out, and that
Speaker 3: was kind of it.
Speaker 2: And I was in home, favorite I mean, yes, he did.
Speaker 3: I was in Hawaii, and I had COVID when I
Speaker 3: stayed longer, I got COVID. So I'm sitting in my
Speaker 3: hotel room and I'm thinking I'm really hurt and unhappy
Speaker 3: and I'm thought, I'm going to write a book for widows,
Speaker 3: because I've written some other books. I'm going to write
Speaker 3: a book for widows and kind of try to figure
Speaker 3: out what's going on here, you know, in my life. Well,
Speaker 3: he had talked about online dating, so I thought, well,
Speaker 3: Steve had done my day. So I thought, I think
Speaker 3: I'll put in a chapter online dating. So, okay, I've
Speaker 3: got to do that. So I go on my cell
Speaker 3: phone and find Silver Singles.
Speaker 2: Oh I never heard of Silver Singles. That's so cute.
Speaker 2: What a cute little ring.
Speaker 3: Yes, So I went on Silber Singles and I signed up,
Speaker 3: and Frank was the second. I had two people that
Speaker 3: were in the Arizona area because I was staying with
Speaker 3: my sister and so.
Speaker 1: The first one really helped me out, like Steve did
Speaker 1: because he had his shriner shirt on, but Dave on
Speaker 1: the top.
Speaker 4: Of the bill. I liked pretty good after.
Speaker 3: That, and then when I got home, the second date
Speaker 3: was Frank. Of course, Frank and I both have pretty
Speaker 3: robust websites. He's a sculptor as well as a therapist,
Speaker 3: so when we got together, it was just like whoa, whoa.
Speaker 3: But I did say to him by the way when
Speaker 3: I first met him. By the way, I just want
Speaker 3: you to know that I'm only dating you because I'm writing
Speaker 3: a book.
Speaker 1: And I was crash falling. I thought, oh my god,
Speaker 1: she's better than her profile.
Speaker 4: I mean, you meet up somebody and they're they're better
Speaker 4: than their profile.
Speaker 2: That is so cute.
Speaker 3: We just hit it off immediately. But Frank's got a
Speaker 3: whole different story than I do.
Speaker 4: Yes, I am a divorcee.
Speaker 1: So I had a divorce about always about a year
Speaker 1: and a half before, and I was really thinking, well,
Speaker 1: at this age, you know, it's.
Speaker 4: I'm kind of old, you know, let me.
Speaker 1: Go back online because I met my wife online and
Speaker 1: I thought, well, okay, let's let's see. I was I
Speaker 1: was just about ready to give up and go into
Speaker 1: a senior community, you know, and and then kind of
Speaker 1: like fold into the warehousing thing.
Speaker 4: That they do with old people, you know.
Speaker 1: So but then I saw her profile and I said, wow,
Speaker 1: this is really a dynamic, cute intelligently, Hey, let's see
Speaker 1: what she's really like a real person.
Speaker 4: So, and she was better in person than on.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's it's something cute too that you
Speaker 2: said like that one guy did the guy that ghosted you,
Speaker 2: did you know you? Frank a favor and it was
Speaker 2: something cute. My fiance the other night we were just
Speaker 2: we kind of have little check ins every once in
Speaker 2: a while, and sitting down and he we're talking through
Speaker 2: some things and he's like, I don't know how anyone
Speaker 2: could ever let you go, and I'm like, well, I'm
Speaker 2: glad they did, you know, because we wouldn't be here,
Speaker 2: you know. And that's that's the beautiful thing of you
Speaker 2: don't think that you're gonna or at least for me,
Speaker 2: like I didn't think. I remember. Actually this morning, I
Speaker 2: was going through one of my journals. I was writing
Speaker 2: in and I like to see what I've written before
Speaker 2: obviously and kind of just see like you know, how
Speaker 2: it's press and everything. But one of the chapters when
Speaker 2: I was writing in when I got divorced, I was like, well,
Speaker 2: will I ever be loved again? Will someone ever?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: Will I ever be happy? And will I ever will
Speaker 2: I basically ever, you know, find love again? And I
Speaker 2: think so many people when they have, you know, either
Speaker 2: a divorce or they lose someone, like will they ever
Speaker 2: feel that love again? And it's that helpless and hopeless
Speaker 2: feeling of like you want to be loved, but will
Speaker 2: someone ever will someone look at me and go oh
Speaker 2: or embrace the you know, the flaws and the and
Speaker 2: the you know, the beauty that someone has.
Speaker 4: And I think most people go through that, Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think that's you know, beautiful that you know
Speaker 2: to look at you guys too. You guys have obviously
Speaker 2: both lived, you know, and you've had a you know, husband,
Speaker 2: and you've wife and married all the things. But yet
Speaker 2: you're still open to the love. I think is beautiful
Speaker 2: because so many people get so cynical about it and
Speaker 2: even say to me like, oh, I don't know how
Speaker 2: you're you know, getting married again, And I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: I'd rather have love in my life than not. It's
Speaker 2: kind of how I look at it.
Speaker 3: Loneliness is such an issue around the United States.
Speaker 1: The biggest mental health issue for older adults is.
Speaker 3: Lovely huge right now, and with COVID and all that.
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's been kind of amazing. We've been really
Speaker 3: happy with us the Golden Bachelor, because you know, he's.
Speaker 1: Really highlights the possibility of finding a relationship.
Speaker 3: Yeah after a loss, because you know, I think you
Speaker 3: were talking about divorce and Frank and I have talked
Speaker 3: about this. I got more support as a widow than
Speaker 3: divorced people do, far more support, and you know the
Speaker 3: case and the divorce is such a loss too, well.
Speaker 1: Wells feels like a failure, you know, and losing your spouse,
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like a failure. It feels like you're
Speaker 1: heroic in terms of going.
Speaker 4: Forward, and divorce is usually don't feel heroic.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: No, Well that's such a good point too, because I
Speaker 2: was looking at some of my comments I wrote on
Speaker 2: an Instagram thing I said about my fancy. I said,
Speaker 2: I get to marry you this year, and someone commented like, well,
Speaker 2: hope this one works out. And it's like, it's not
Speaker 2: like I wanted my last one to not work out,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? Like I didn't. I didn't
Speaker 2: choose for him to cheat on me. I would have
Speaker 2: loved to stay married. Yeah, I'm like, I don't like
Speaker 2: the comments like that. I'm just like I didn't. That
Speaker 2: wasn't the road I wanted. Having said that, I'm so
Speaker 2: much happier now and I'm so glad in a way
Speaker 2: that that happened so that I could have this kind
Speaker 2: of love that is unlike anything I've ever experienced, So like,
Speaker 2: thank you to it.
Speaker 4: That didn't work out, Like.
Speaker 2: I'm so thankful now, Like I'm like, I'm thank you,
Speaker 2: like for for doing and cheating because now I like
Speaker 2: have the most incredible man that I didn't even think
Speaker 2: I deserved or could ever have, Like wow, you know,
Speaker 2: and it's like so I just it bothers me because
Speaker 2: you're right, like we do we get cast as the
Speaker 2: like problem or you know, we're broken as opposed to
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well the other thing about a widow or a
Speaker 3: widower is if you meet another widow or widow widow,
Speaker 3: everybody's like kumbayah. These two men, you know, they give
Speaker 3: you support. Society says this is okay. But a divorcee
Speaker 3: starts debating another divorcee, people are like, oh, I wonder
Speaker 3: if this will work well? What about him where.
Speaker 4: He's going to work out? And he's a divorce.
Speaker 2: So then what made you guys want to write a
Speaker 2: book together? Because that's like that I love that and
Speaker 2: like and you know, the people that are listening, I
Speaker 2: don't know, you know, I don't even think my mom
Speaker 2: listens anymore to the podcast. But you know what is
Speaker 2: some advice to for maybe our younger audience that is
Speaker 2: losing hope as well.
Speaker 3: Well. We I think our number one thing is to
Speaker 3: say we believe that there's somebody out there.
Speaker 1: For everything, there is someone out there, but finding them
Speaker 1: is really a whole issue.
Speaker 4: How do you do that now? And you know, for people.
Speaker 1: Our age, we did not have online dating, and so
Speaker 1: that wasn't one of the pieces that people our age
Speaker 1: are familiar with. So it's a new thing and I
Speaker 1: think that you have to learn from your grandchildren or
Speaker 1: for someone who is more adapt at using online dating.
Speaker 1: And we talk about having dating buddies that a person
Speaker 1: our age really needs.
Speaker 4: Any age, I think, for any age, for any age,
Speaker 4: but especially us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you do need a dating buddy, somebody, I
Speaker 3: know some people call them wingmen or whatever you know,
Speaker 3: to support you in this process.
Speaker 4: Because don't don't do it alone.
Speaker 1: It's really can be kind of daunting, especially for people
Speaker 1: who are not that familiar with how to use internet processes.
Speaker 3: And another thing, everybody, I mean, some of these things
Speaker 3: that we have are for it doesn't matter what age
Speaker 3: you are. Our first thing is to get a dating buddy,
Speaker 3: and then we talk about you've got to make space
Speaker 3: in your life. It takes time to.
Speaker 1: Day, well, yes, because there are these things that are
Speaker 1: connected with a past relationship and those things have to
Speaker 1: kind of get out of your life so you have
Speaker 1: space to bring someone in. If you're still ruminating or
Speaker 1: you're still going over the issues.
Speaker 4: Of the loss whatever through divorce or our death, you're.
Speaker 1: Not really going to have the energy and the open
Speaker 1: space to invite someone in. So you do work through
Speaker 1: that before you're ready to bring someone in.
Speaker 2: What is your advice? Because I've seen this happen a
Speaker 2: couple times where older people and even in my AGM,
Speaker 2: I'm forty now, so people and I did this when
Speaker 2: I was thirty because I'm like, well, I really want kids,
Speaker 2: and so I settled a little a little bit because
Speaker 2: I was like, all right, well, I mean he's good,
Speaker 2: and you know, I want kids, and I'm hardy thirty
Speaker 2: and I don't really know if I have any prospects,
Speaker 2: you know, anybody else. And then I see people that
Speaker 2: get older, same thing where it's like, all right, your
Speaker 2: forties fifties, well shoot, I don't want to spend the
Speaker 2: rest of my life alone. And then they kind of
Speaker 2: settle into a relationship. So what's your advice to tell
Speaker 2: someone not to do that?
Speaker 3: Well, I think in the first chapter of our book,
Speaker 3: we talk about if you're going to start dating, know
Speaker 3: who you are, make a list, make a list what's
Speaker 3: worked for you in the past and what hasn't work.
Speaker 4: For last relationships.
Speaker 1: That is one thing. If you're a little older, you
Speaker 1: have some experiences, so you know what you liked and
Speaker 1: what worked in relationships and what did not and what
Speaker 1: did not is just as important as what did work.
Speaker 1: And so I want to sort of get a picture
Speaker 1: of what kind of person what kind of personality, what
Speaker 1: kinds of things are important to you in a relationship
Speaker 1: that satisfy you and make you feel connected and love
Speaker 1: and where you want to develop the intimacy of a
Speaker 1: more permanent relationship.
Speaker 3: So know who you are and then it will make
Speaker 3: some space. Get a dating body, make some space, know
Speaker 3: who you are, and then you've got to go where
Speaker 3: the action.
Speaker 2: Is literally and figuratively.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the action is literally online right now, especially for seniors,
Speaker 3: especially for women.
Speaker 4: Women.
Speaker 1: It's fifty to fifty online in our age group especially,
Speaker 1: and that is not true in real life. So women
Speaker 1: have a much better chance and it's a much better
Speaker 1: place to go to meet people who you wouldn't normally meet.
Speaker 1: It gives you a much broader range of possibilities for
Speaker 1: yourself to find the one.
Speaker 2: Yep, what is your gu biggest advice for conflict in
Speaker 2: a relationship?
Speaker 3: Conflict in a relationship? Our biggest advice is, I want
Speaker 3: to say comfortize avoid it.
Speaker 1: I mean, conflict is real and it really helps you.
Speaker 1: Once you get past the conflict, you actually feel closer.
Speaker 1: You feel like, oh wow, okay, yeah, I really think
Speaker 1: that this person and I can get through things. And
Speaker 1: that is a wonderful thing to feel with a partner.
Speaker 3: But preempting it is good because if you are going
Speaker 3: to start dating, how do you avoid conflict? Do you
Speaker 3: pick people that you're not going to argue with. If
Speaker 3: you don't want somebody who drinks, for example, then you
Speaker 3: put it in your profile. I want somebody who does
Speaker 3: not drink. And you stand by that because we tend
Speaker 3: to repeat patterns. So what are the things that have
Speaker 3: irritated you do in the past that haven't worked out,
Speaker 3: that have not out? Don't go into a relationship and
Speaker 3: don't you know, you've got to figure out what your
Speaker 3: bottom line is what are you willing to put up with?
Speaker 3: What are you willing not to put up with it?
Speaker 3: And then you've got to look for the somebody.
Speaker 1: And Gloria and I both feel pretty strongly that twenty
Speaker 1: and thirty year olds sometimes really are attracted to opposite
Speaker 1: sort of different you see people, they think someone will
Speaker 1: bring that quality in, and then most of the time
Speaker 1: the twenties and thorties will spend the next ten years
Speaker 1: trying to change that person to be more like that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, be more like you're older, don't do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did that in my late twenties for sure.
Speaker 2: And then when I finally looked at it, I'm like, well,
Speaker 2: I don't like any of the qualities, and I'm sure
Speaker 2: he isn't like any the qualities. I mean, we're just both.
Speaker 4: Trying to change people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like this is not working. What do you
Speaker 2: think in a relationship to is the absolute kiss of death.
Speaker 3: In a relationship? Well, when people will not talk, when
Speaker 3: they stonewall.
Speaker 4: You, Yeah, that's not a good sign. That's not a
Speaker 4: helpful thing.
Speaker 1: Good conversation, ability to be open and share, the ability
Speaker 1: to be yourself and not try to be someone who
Speaker 1: you're not those are real problems for most people in
Speaker 1: terms of finding a relationship. I worked with a lot
Speaker 1: of men in my practice, and many of them really
Speaker 1: in a sense, had no clue how to develop a friendship,
Speaker 1: a real connection with a woman, And they didn't have
Speaker 1: good models, usually in their own fathers, and so they
Speaker 1: really had problems building that kind of friendship. Now they
Speaker 1: could do it with other males a lot of times,
Speaker 1: but they had a real hard time developing that same
Speaker 1: friendship feeling and feeling of connection with women. And I
Speaker 1: do think for males in general, this is a real issue.
Speaker 1: And I hope that through our book and through our
Speaker 1: work that we'll be able to encourage men to really,
Speaker 1: in a sense, try to build a friendship. Don't just
Speaker 1: look for some lovely thing on your arm to impress
Speaker 1: other men. You really want to have a friend.
Speaker 2: Frank for you though, like in your past and maybe
Speaker 2: even in your current situation, you know now with Gloria
Speaker 2: your relationship, is there something where you it's a pattern
Speaker 2: that you've always kind of struggled with in the relationship,
Speaker 2: whether it's you know, maybe you're not the best communicator,
Speaker 2: or maybe you you know you walk away, or because
Speaker 2: there's something that you do that is you've had to
Speaker 2: actively work on stubborn.
Speaker 4: Yes.
Speaker 1: Yes, I have a tendency to be very thick headed.
Speaker 1: I think a certain way, and I have a lot
Speaker 1: of faith in my convictions, so I really have a
Speaker 1: hard time sometimes bringing in new thoughts and new ways
Speaker 1: of doing things.
Speaker 4: And I do think that that's one of the beauties.
Speaker 1: Because she is so talented and in just teasing me
Speaker 1: about my stubbornness, and I kind of melt and it's wonderful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of see that with my Mom's husband
Speaker 2: does a really good job where she's very she's more
Speaker 2: of I think, not to say that he's not strong,
Speaker 2: but like she's just as stronger, and she can get
Speaker 2: a little bit feisty and stubborn quite quick like I do,
Speaker 2: which is what I think I got for my mom.
Speaker 2: But you know, and he just he deals with it
Speaker 2: so well with her too. I mean, he lets her
Speaker 2: tote the line a little bit, but then and then
Speaker 2: we'll reel her in at times. But it's just when
Speaker 2: you almost see that in someone, it's like if you
Speaker 2: you know, you work with them on it, and it's
Speaker 2: almost like becomes like one of the things that I
Speaker 2: was like, oh that might rub me the wrong way.
Speaker 2: With my fiance, now is like endearing to me.
Speaker 4: My defensiveness just melts with her. She's so wonderful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Gloria, what about you, I'm curious on your side.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. I get task oriented and I will
Speaker 3: then tell Frank what to do.
Speaker 2: So then he becomes like your assistant. You're talking to
Speaker 2: him like a like a worker instead of a husband, like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm ready to get podcast or whatever. And I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 3: this is going to be on. This is what we
Speaker 3: have to do this.
Speaker 2: But I also think that's a woman thing. Though I
Speaker 2: feel like that's a woman thing because I do the
Speaker 2: same thing. And I'm like, I, oh, I forget, like
Speaker 2: I have to adjust my tone like hey baby, like
Speaker 2: we've got instead of being like all right, we got
Speaker 2: this that because it's like we're delegators. We're tasked. We
Speaker 2: have to get things done and like and it's they
Speaker 2: they have to like almost know that we're not meaning
Speaker 2: to talk to them like that, but it's just how
Speaker 2: we operate in a way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and Frank's so great at just walking in I mean,
Speaker 3: I mean, I will I realize now that if he's
Speaker 3: in brushing his teeth or doing something that, don't say, oh, okay,
Speaker 3: we've got to be on in fifteen minutes. You know,
Speaker 3: leave the guy alone and when he knows what, when
Speaker 3: it's time, he'll be here.
Speaker 2: I love you to you, guys. What is your favorite
Speaker 2: chapter in the book that comes out on which is
Speaker 2: so cute Valentine's Day?
Speaker 1: Actually, it's very interesting. We have a chapter that we
Speaker 1: don't really talk about.
Speaker 4: Too much because you tell people buy the book and
Speaker 4: get it.
Speaker 1: It's through the Bedroom Door, which has to do with
Speaker 1: sexuality as you get older, and there are some real
Speaker 1: differences things that we really talk about, I think fairly openly,
Speaker 1: and it's not generally talked about. And I think that,
Speaker 1: to me is one of the unique aspects of the
Speaker 1: book is that we really don't avoid that, we really
Speaker 1: tackle that head on.
Speaker 3: But my favorite chapter is the last chapter, Oh yes,
Speaker 3: which is post traumatic growth, because we talk so much
Speaker 3: about post traumatic stress, and there actually is research done
Speaker 3: on post traumatic growth and how your experiences the death
Speaker 3: of a husband, divorces, whatever, how they bring insight into
Speaker 3: your life and how they can make you a fuller,
Speaker 3: diverse and you're stronger, and you have more compassion, and
Speaker 3: you have better relationships, deeper, more spiritual. There are all
Speaker 3: sorts of aspects that have been studied on post traumatic growth.
Speaker 2: So I like, I love that outlook instead of saying like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is what you know. The anxiety or the stress
Speaker 2: of the depression, that yes, very valid, and it's the
Speaker 2: post traumatic growth that you got from that that is
Speaker 2: the biggest impactful thing that will lead you. You know,
Speaker 2: if you do the healing and all the things, then
Speaker 2: that's what you get from it in a positive way. So
Speaker 2: I love, I love, love, love love that. That's amazing. Well,
Speaker 2: thank you guys so much for coming on everyone, go
Speaker 2: get open to love or releasing February fourteenth, The Secrets
Speaker 2: of Senior Dating. So to my senior listeners, grab a copy,
Speaker 2: and also to my little longer younger loves, grab it
Speaker 2: for your mom, dad, whoever. Awesome. Thank you guys so much,
Speaker 2: appreciate you, lovely talking to you guys. Thank you, bye guys,
Speaker 2: Bye bye