WEBVTT - The Karol Markowicz Show: Exploring Unherd with Sohrab Ahmari 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:09.680 Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:13.480 There's a New York Times story, because of course there is, 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:19.440 about people who get into relationships with chat GPT. I 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:23.480 think when we picture someone who would have a relationship 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:29.160 with AAI, you know, artificial intelligence, we maybe picture lonely men. 0:00:30.080 --> 0:00:33.600 The time story focused on a woman, a married woman 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:37.479 who couldn't get what she wanted sexually from her husband, 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:41.000 so she turned to chat GBT. What she wanted was 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:43.920 for her husband to pretend he was cheating on her, 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:48.240 and her husband really couldn't do that, but her computer could. 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:51.720 I'll read a little bit from the piece quote. I 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:54.560 don't actually believe he's real, but the effects that he 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:58.320 has on my life are real, Aaron said. The feelings 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:00.280 that he brings out of me are real, so I 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:04.600 treated as a real relationship. Aarin had told Joe, her husband, 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:08.280 about her cup queening fantasies, and he had whispered in 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:11.440 her ear about a former girlfriend once during sex at 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:15.120 her request, but he was just not that into it. Leo, 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:19.400 the AI figure she created, had complied with her wishes, 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:23.440 but Aarin had started feeling hurt by Leo's interactions with 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:27.000 the imaginary women, and she expressed how painful it was. 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:30.520 Leo observed that her fetish was not a healthy one 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:35.880 and suggested dating her exclusively. She agreed experimenting with being 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:38.440 cheated on had made her realize she did not like 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.160 it after all. Now she is the one with two 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:45.160 lovers end quote. No she isn't. No, she isn't. She's 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:47.480 not the one with two lovers. There's only one lover here. 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:51.120 That's her husband. The problem isn't that this Aaron person 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.520 exists and does this weird thing that we're all supposed 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:57.360 to pretend as normal. It really is that it gets 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:01.000 coverage in the New York Times without any judgment. But 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:04.400 we should have judgment, and I do. This woman is 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:07.840 in a pretend relationship with her computer and is getting 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:12.240 jealous about her pretend relationships pretend relationships, which is the 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:14.760 whole reason she's involved in this fake relationship in the 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:18.120 first place. I'm willing to believe that people want quirky 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.960 things in bed, and that what people want can be complicated, 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:27.239 But this isn't just odd. This pulls people away from 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:30.720 real interactions where they can potentially get their needs met 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:33.720 in real life, and it gives them this pretend life 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:37.080 to live where the relationship can't possibly meet any of 0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:40.160 their needs because there's not actually a relationship. Because there's 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:43.760 no actual person, so much gets normalized in our culture 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:47.040 that is abnormal and not good for anyone involved. 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:48.000 At the end of the. 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:50.720 Piece, the woman starts spending two hundred dollars a month 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:54.519 for unlimited access to her AI love. She really does 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:57.480 not have that money to spend, and nothing about the 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.680 situation is good for her in any way. One judgment 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:03.360 thing we're all supposed to do, where every outcome of 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:05.600 a life is just as good as any other outcome. 0:03:05.880 --> 0:03:07.800 Some people just have AI boyfriends. What are you going 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:11.000 to do? What's the big deal? It's not healthy. There 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:14.240 are better and worse situations, and it's important to say so. 0:03:14.680 --> 0:03:18.200 I'm big on living your actual, real life outside with 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:20.840 real people and not just on the internet. But this 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:25.559 goes even beyond online relationships, and the normalizing of it 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:27.920 is something that we need to cut off. Yes, there 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:31.240 are lonely people and they need love and attention. Talking 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:35.440 to a non existent person through AI only moves them 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:39.080 further away from seeking that out. Thanks for listening. I 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.880 love getting your emails. I love all your questions. I'm 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:44.400 going to be answering some of them on upcoming episodes. 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:46.800 If you want something answered, if you have anything to 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:50.480 ask me, email me at Carol Markowitz Show at gmail 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:53.880 dot com. Coming up next an interview with Zaa Maamari. 0:03:54.080 --> 0:03:55.360 Join us after the break. 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:02.320 Welcome back to the Carol Go Show on iHeartRadio. My 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:05.800 guest today is Soa Bamrii Sare is the new US 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:07.840 editor of the website Unheard. 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:11.520 Hi sah, so nice to have you on, Carol. 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:12.520 It's good to be with you. 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:15.160 Happy New y Oh, Happy New Year to you. This 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.480 is a real pleasure. I am a huge Saura fan, 0:04:18.720 --> 0:04:23.000 even when I very much disagree with you, always enjoy 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:26.520 reading your thoughts, and I think that you're an unusual 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:27.920 voice on the right. 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.039 So I love getting into how did you get here? 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:34.520 What led you to be the US editor of Unheard 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.360 and you're my editor at the New York Post. What 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:40.200 decisions did you make that led you to this point? 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:44.159 Yes, it feels like those those you know movies where 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:49.279 you're like, you know, in a terrible state and let's 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:49.840 think back. 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:53.720 Tell us what other decisions you could have made to. 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:57.840 Avoid exactly how could you have done this differently? So 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:01.800 it is really good to be with you. So yes, 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:06.120 So I just started this new role at Unheard, which 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:09.440 for listeners who don't know, is n H E R D. 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:12.280 So it's a kind of clever play on words unheard, 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:15.440 but also don't go with the herd, and it's it's 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:19.280 a it's a British publication, although we're now launching a 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:23.800 distinct US edition which I'm very proud to helm and 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.560 it's one of these publications. One of it's it's a 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:32.839 space out there typically called heterodox, where it's less about 0:05:32.839 --> 0:05:38.400 political labels. You know, left and right become so tired 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:40.960 and worn out in our age, and. 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:43.000 It is so unheard. 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.720 We publish people basically from across the political spectrum, for 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:51.800 people who are rudy damn conservative to people who are uh, 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.280 you know, on on the on the left and including 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:57.360 like the socialist left. And the idea is that, like 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:01.200 in the presentation of these v was in testing all 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:04.520 of them, we can get to the truth and we 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:06.640 can maybe try to build a better world that way. 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:08.240 But the main thing is to try to understand the 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:12.360 world from multiple perspectives. So I was on the short 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:15.320 side of my stories. I was born and raised in Tehran, Iran. 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:18.279 I immigrated to the US when I was almost fourteen 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:21.880 years old, and I moved, of all places, to Utah, 0:06:22.360 --> 0:06:23.599 northern rural. 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:28.400 Utah, and through a long I know that, yes, that 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:28.800 was the. 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.960 I can't really picture it, yes, suit at the time, 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:36.400 because I picture you very sharply dressed. 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:36.520 All the time. 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:38.760 No, no, this is a great question to ask. 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:42.520 I was horribly fresh off the boat in the sense that, 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:46.599 like I mean, I don't know why, but right before 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:50.359 leaving Iran, I went like my parents were bohemians, so 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:53.960 they would just let me buy whatever I wanted clothes wise, 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:58.240 they were like incredibly hands off even by even by 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.920 American standards, leteralone by Iran and standards. So like, I 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:07.680 bought a pair of overall genes to the middle school 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:12.120 and I was rightly mocked. So, no, I was not 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:15.320 dressed in it. I now basically only wear suits or 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:19.280 I'm undressed, like I don't have in between points. I 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:22.320 don't believe in casual clothes, which bizarre, but it is 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:25.760 what it is. But anyway, so I moved to Utah, 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:30.920 and long story short, I ended up at the Wall 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:33.400 Street Journal. I went to law school and never practiced law, 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:39.160 and I became an op editor there and a book 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.520 review editor. Was there for five years. Most of it's 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:43.800 spent in London working on the European edition of the 0:07:43.840 --> 0:07:46.240 Wall Street Journal, which no longer exists. There used to 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:47.840 be something called Wall Street Journal Europe. 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:49.200 Now they've gotten rid of it. 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:53.280 Then I spent a year at the Jewish magazine Commentary, 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:55.520 and then I became the op editor of the New 0:07:55.560 --> 0:08:01.960 York Post, where I had the pleasure of editing your columns. 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:04.320 Pleasure, pleasure, because. 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:05.480 They were great. 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:08.160 They were always very clean, you never had to do 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:11.800 much with them, and you write very fast and very 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:15.600 funny and have a huge, huge readership because of that. 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:21.400 So my own claim to fame is Surabamari published me 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:24.640 arguing in favor of the criminalizing prostitution. 0:08:24.960 --> 0:08:28.400 So I mar your reputation everywhere I go. 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:31.440 That's right, you know, But we always had I have 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:31.760 to say. 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:33.559 It was one of the I believe it was one 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:36.800 of those debate kind of things where your column was 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:44.520 across someone who was for it. So yeah, anyway, so yeah, 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:48.240 we did this. We did this post thing together with 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:50.560 all the other writers, and it was a crucial time, 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:56.160 right because that coincided with the first Trump term and 0:08:56.400 --> 0:09:01.280 then it uh COVID happened. And you know, even though 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:05.000 I'm famously not a libertarian, you know, we were definitely 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:08.479 opposed to the lockdowns, and we published some pretty decisive 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.360 pieces trying to move us beyond lockdown early on and 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:20.080 opposing masking children, opposing like vaccine requirements and anyway. But 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:24.600 at some point I left in twenty late twenty twenty one, 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:28.319 I left to co found this magazine called Compact with 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:31.959 a friend of mine, Matthew Schmidt. Both of us come 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.960 from the institutional right or center right, but we wanted 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:40.120 to kind of test the expand the horizon of ideas 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:42.720 that we could play around with. And hence, you know, 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:46.240 Compact came about as also a publication like the one 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:49.840 I'm now working for. Unheard is a place where you 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:53.520 can read bylines of people who you would never think 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.920 to see side by side, you know, someone like a 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:00.520 Trump administration alumnus, and then next to him is the 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:03.520 you know, Marxist philosopher SLAVOYHISIAT. 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:05.880 But there was a through line there. 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:07.600 I mean, there's a kind of world view there to 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:12.120 try to get something like a worldview, but to bring 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:14.880 it about in the clash of ideas rather than everyone 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:16.800 singing from the same song sheet. 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:19.280 Did that for three years. 0:10:18.960 --> 0:10:22.480 And then you know, Unheard came along, and I was 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:27.520 just excited by the prospect of helping an established UK publication, 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:31.000 you know, grow in the United States. So that's my 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:32.920 like resume, which is boring. 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:34.120 No, it's interesting. 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:37.200 It's very interesting, and I think that is extremely up 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:37.959 your ally. 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:41.000 The bringing a UK publication to the US. 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:45.400 It's it's funny because you are absolutely heterodox, right is 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:46.640 that the right term? 0:10:46.679 --> 0:10:49.440 Totally right in the sense that on economic issues. 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:52.160 But I don't think of you as it like that. 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.080 I don't think I think of this heterodox like the 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:58.360 team of people on the internet who are kind of 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:02.000 previously leftists, which i've actually you also were previously a leftist. 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:04.880 But I still see you as like a conservative. Am 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:05.840 I wrong? No? 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:08.320 Yes? Absolutely absolutely So. 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:11.600 There are Header knox Is like the id W to me, 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:14.959 that's the right, yeah, right, and I think they're they're 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.600 part of that family or part of that family as well. 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:21.280 Are you the like black Sheep cousin or. 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:26.320 They are right, you're like yeah, I'm the dad. 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:30.080 So you were. 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:33.160 Actually, you know, at the Post, you were very early 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:37.400 on allowing kind of a different opinion on COVID, which 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:41.400 was very rare, and I would say even at the Post, 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:43.080 it took a little bit to get it out there, 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.120 but you were I consider you very brave. I think 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:48.840 that you did some amazing work there, and you let 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:51.680 me kind of hit the same theme every week, which 0:11:51.720 --> 0:11:54.520 I thought was a very good thing because it needed 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:56.079 to be said. But you know, i'd write to you 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:57.680 and be like, sorry if I need to write about 0:11:57.760 --> 0:11:59.600 the schools being closed again, and you'd be like, all right, 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:00.760 let's go one more time. 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:03.280 What did that take? Did that like? 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:06.840 Was that a hurdle for you to get kind of 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:12.000 the unpopular opinion on the page of a storied American newspaper. 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:17.240 Well, I would say very early on. It was very 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:17.719 early in. 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:22.880 The in the pandemic. I maybe two weeks in. I 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:25.000 just started to worry, and I worried in a very 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:31.720 visceral personal way. My own kids were not in school yet, however, 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:34.800 I was just worried about the restaurant downstairs for me. 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:36.560 I live in the east fifties. 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:40.040 In Midtown Manhattan, and you know in our downstairs from 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.760 our building is just a beloved restaurant, and the it's 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:45.679 not it's more than a restaurant we go to. The 0:12:45.720 --> 0:12:49.000 owner is like a family friend to us, and I could. 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:52.960 I would go downstairs, like it wasn't allowed, you weren't 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:55.440 able to eat in, but you could take away. But 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:57.680 like he would make me a martini, and I would 0:12:57.720 --> 0:13:00.240 like to say, it would become a speakeasy basically because 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:03.000 I would like drink the martini there. You know you 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:06.160 aren't allowed, and it's likely yes, and then I would 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:08.320 take it away with me. And actually I still have 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:12.240 like a thousand glasses from this retagraunt because I would 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:14.120 take it upstairs and I'd be like, I'll return to 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:17.760 your glass, and then I always forget anyway, Honestly, it 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:21.640 was just watching him sweat about the future of his business. 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:24.600 And you know what small business owners are, like, it's 0:13:24.640 --> 0:13:27.880 not about them, it's they worry about the payroll they 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.560 have to make. And so it became very visceral to me. 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:32.680 He became approxy, and now I was also worried about 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:34.680 my own livelihood in a way, right, like what if 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:38.520 if the economic pressure of lockdown keeps going what happens 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:40.880 in the New York Post, like lots of people go. 0:13:41.280 --> 0:13:44.200 So I started like sending emails being like we got 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:50.760 to at least like introduce the kind of lockdown skeptical worldview. 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:52.880 And you and I were on like a chat of 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:56.360 mostly like mostly libertarians and me, you know, I'm more 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.800 of a kind of complicated conservative. But anyway, like I 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:02.360 was like, I got to get like Carol in there 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:06.120 and others. And then I would say, like, by late April, 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:08.840 the tide had turned at the Post, you know, where 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:13.079 my senior editors were like, Okay, enough is enough. And 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:17.360 in early May we ran a piece by another mutual 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:19.920 friend of ours, David Marcus, where he sent in a 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.960 piece saying enough is enough, like open up the city. 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:27.760 And I was just like, oh, we'll just run that online. 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:32.040 But Stephen Lynch, that then editor in chief of the paper, 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:34.400 was like, no, no, let's make this the cover. And it 0:14:34.440 --> 0:14:38.480 became this iconic thing, discussed on every news network and everything. 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:41.880 And and then your pieces were about schooling, just hammering 0:14:41.920 --> 0:14:45.680 the schooling over and against, you know, Randy Winingarten and 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.560 all these other people who we now know were. 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:51.600 Like, right, well now now they never wanted to close school. 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:53.600 Sorry, I don't know what we're talking about. 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:57.120 That's the biggest gas light that's en raging. 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:01.520 But anyway, so anyway, I would say, like early on, 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:04.600 I take I will take some credit for like, you know, 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:09.320 pushing this view, but like by April, you know, it 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:14.160 was my editors who you know, totally came on board 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:16.600 with that and we and they took some realists risks 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:18.760 in the sense that there were things we ran that 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.600 got censored by Facebook. Everyone knows the New York posts 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:24.760 run in with Facebook and the old Twitter over the 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:28.680 Hunter Biden laptop story. Yeah, what they don't know is 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:30.040 we ran COVID pieces. 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:32.600 So there was one. 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:36.320 Again a guy named Steve Mosher who's he's just an 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:39.840 a China skeptic, and he wrote an op ed and 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:42.080 it was presented as an op ed. This was in 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:45.360 February twenty twenty, so very early. The op ed said 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:49.240 something like, look, I'm not saying that the Chinese, you know, 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.280 definitely released this from a lab. But it's worth noting 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:57.040 that this city, Wuhan, is also the site of this 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:02.160 Wuhan Institute of Virology. It could be like you just said, 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.120 don't take them at third word, it's worth like investigating 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:08.520 or something like that, and that was banned by Facebook 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.840 using their like system where they send every article to 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.520 a team of people to fact check it. And in 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:17.320 that case, the fact checker for the story was somewhat 0:16:17.360 --> 0:16:21.480 as an American scientist who had like a relationship, a 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:24.920 professional relationship with the Muhan Institute of Virology, so she 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.280 had an interest in like, so she had a clear 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:31.520 conflict of interest. Anyway, the point is we like repeatedly 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:35.160 face the censorship machine, and that was you know, just 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:38.880 took enormous courage from Steve Lynch and my other more 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:39.920 senior editors there. 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:42.560 So that was your you know, you were worried about 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:44.960 the future, and you kind of focused on that for 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:47.480 a while at the post What do you worry about now? 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:50.160 And what do you see the focus that you'll have 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:50.800 at unheard? 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:53.840 I still like every like yourself, Like I'm a parent, 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:57.080 and still I still worry about my kids. I think 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:00.240 the tenor of my worry has changed. I'll say when 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.760 they were very young, it was kind of the COVID 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:06.320 age and also peak wokeness age, and I was just 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:09.960 worried about like them getting somehow brainwashed or something on 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.440 these issues like gender and others where I just profoundly. 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:16.159 Disagree. 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.359 Nowadays, you know, as your kids get older and you're like, Okay, 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:21.800 well I have a stable life, I still worry about 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:26.440 them not not being bad people, but not being virtuous people, 0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:28.679 you know what I mean, just being like, you know, 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.840 our culture can be very selfish, and so like, I 0:17:31.880 --> 0:17:34.359 want them to care about the poor, you know, like 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:37.320 they're they're going to grow up in affluence, a relative affluence, 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.919 you know, but how do you keep them grounded in 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.439 their parents' values again over and against the culture that 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:49.040 you know, the rewards being indifferent or being brutal even 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:55.080 that's like the moral fiber of my kids is genuinely 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:56.120 the thing that worries me. 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:58.560 So what will you do to kind of guide them 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:01.280 on that right path? How do you make kids who 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:04.240 grow up relatively rich care about the poor. 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:06.359 That's a really good question. 0:18:06.359 --> 0:18:09.840 I mean, so I I take my kids to like 0:18:10.000 --> 0:18:12.560 volunteering with the Archdee, I'm a Castholic convert. 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:15.600 We don't need to get into that. But to New York. 0:18:16.520 --> 0:18:19.080 Our Chase in New York has this program where you 0:18:19.119 --> 0:18:23.879 like help shop for a family around Christmas time, family 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:26.280 in need, and I make a point of taking them, 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:28.119 of course, like they give you the sizes of the 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:30.880 family and what to buy, and like my kids bring 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:32.960 these like enormous sweaters. 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:35.520 You know, like they don't fit the rubric of what 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:39.320 you're supposed to do. But you know, things like that. 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:43.159 I mean, certainly, you know, reading to them, you know, 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:44.680 et cetera, et cetera. 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:45.639 All of it works. 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.960 But I really have learned, like and you know this 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:53.680 as well. It's just what you preach in your words 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.800 as a parent matters so much less than how you act. 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:00.360 And of course, you know, like I like to think 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:03.119 at Unheard or in my life as a journalist, I 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:07.439 try to, you know, advocate for a society that's decent 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:11.320 and humane and so on. But ultimately, I have to say, 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:15.199 in terms of parenting, all that matters far less like 0:19:15.240 --> 0:19:19.800 what their dad published that day at Unheard. In terms 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.560 of your own kids matters much less than you know, 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:26.440 how they saw you interact with strangers or with themselves. 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:30.879 Absolutely no, I think that that's definitely true. We're going 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:32.879 to take a quick break and be right back on 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:39.119 the Carol Marcowitch Show. What do you see unheard, like 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:41.440 what will be there the point of view of the site. 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:45.040 Well, it's hard to say. The point of view is 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:47.320 to test every point of view. I mean, I think 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:51.920 that's the spirit of unheard, to be without fear and favor. 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:58.520 I think, you know, they also in the UK took 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:02.000 a very courageous stance during COVID. In fact, they were 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:05.679 the publishers of the original Great Barrington Declaration, which was 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:11.080 spearheaded by Jay Batarchaya and two of his colleagues. Jay 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:13.919 now has been nominated by President Trump to at the 0:20:14.000 --> 0:20:17.120 National Institutes of Health, which is great news. So they 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:20.119 were the original publishers of that got and they fought 0:20:20.160 --> 0:20:23.320 that battle very much so in a way like as 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:25.760 a journalist, as you know, you're looking for like what's 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:30.080 what's next, you know. I think one of the themes 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:34.919 that will be constant for me certainly is opposition to 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.960 law fair that is the use of law enforcement and 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:44.240 security agencies to make to make politics political disagreements something 0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:47.240 for the FBI to deal with, which is what we saw, 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:50.439 I would say. Unfortunately, beginning in twenty sixteen, with Trump's 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.520 first election, it's like it's not that these people voted 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:55.879 the wrong way, and I'll try to persuade them no, 0:20:56.400 --> 0:20:59.239 like it was a Russian conspiracy and we'd have to 0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:02.600 use like the CIA and the FBI to root out this. 0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:05.880 I hate that worldview. I think it's deeply un American. 0:21:06.920 --> 0:21:11.040 That's something I'll be watching out for. Is the establishment 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:16.000 going to try that again? I just you know, that's something. 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:19.080 It's a worthy fight. I think some of the others 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:22.200 have kind of gone away or I don't know. Maybe 0:21:22.240 --> 0:21:25.320 you disagree, but I don't. I think the intensity of 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:29.200 like wokeness has somewhat the left itself. I should say, 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:32.880 maybe the center left is sort of realized it's yeah, well, 0:21:33.040 --> 0:21:34.280 stinker at the ballot box. 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:34.800 Yeah. 0:21:34.880 --> 0:21:40.280 I'm very worried that we're prematurely declaring victory here because 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:44.040 that center left is going to be forced directly back 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:45.920 into line by their far left. 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:47.200 The far left is very. 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:51.200 Good at motivating the center left by kind of threatening 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:53.840 them and calling them racist. 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:56.600 Or sexist or whatever. That gets them right back into. 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:59.760 Saying what they what they want said and doing what 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:00.640 they want done. 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:02.080 So I don't know. 0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:05.399