1 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: There's a New York Times story, because of course there is, 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: about people who get into relationships with chat GPT. I 4 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: think when we picture someone who would have a relationship 5 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: with AAI, you know, artificial intelligence, we maybe picture lonely men. 6 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: The time story focused on a woman, a married woman 7 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: who couldn't get what she wanted sexually from her husband, 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: so she turned to chat GBT. What she wanted was 9 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: for her husband to pretend he was cheating on her, 10 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: and her husband really couldn't do that, but her computer could. 11 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: I'll read a little bit from the piece quote. I 12 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: don't actually believe he's real, but the effects that he 13 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: has on my life are real, Aaron said. The feelings 14 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: that he brings out of me are real, so I 15 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: treated as a real relationship. Aarin had told Joe, her husband, 16 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: about her cup queening fantasies, and he had whispered in 17 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: her ear about a former girlfriend once during sex at 18 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: her request, but he was just not that into it. Leo, 19 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: the AI figure she created, had complied with her wishes, 20 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: but Aarin had started feeling hurt by Leo's interactions with 21 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: the imaginary women, and she expressed how painful it was. 22 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: Leo observed that her fetish was not a healthy one 23 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: and suggested dating her exclusively. She agreed experimenting with being 24 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: cheated on had made her realize she did not like 25 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: it after all. Now she is the one with two 26 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: lovers end quote. No she isn't. No, she isn't. She's 27 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: not the one with two lovers. There's only one lover here. 28 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: That's her husband. The problem isn't that this Aaron person 29 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: exists and does this weird thing that we're all supposed 30 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 1: to pretend as normal. It really is that it gets 31 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: coverage in the New York Times without any judgment. But 32 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: we should have judgment, and I do. This woman is 33 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,840 Speaker 1: in a pretend relationship with her computer and is getting 34 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: jealous about her pretend relationships pretend relationships, which is the 35 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: whole reason she's involved in this fake relationship in the 36 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: first place. I'm willing to believe that people want quirky 37 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: things in bed, and that what people want can be complicated, 38 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:27,239 Speaker 1: But this isn't just odd. This pulls people away from 39 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: real interactions where they can potentially get their needs met 40 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: in real life, and it gives them this pretend life 41 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: to live where the relationship can't possibly meet any of 42 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: their needs because there's not actually a relationship. Because there's 43 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: no actual person, so much gets normalized in our culture 44 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: that is abnormal and not good for anyone involved. 45 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 2: At the end of the. 46 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: Piece, the woman starts spending two hundred dollars a month 47 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 1: for unlimited access to her AI love. She really does 48 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: not have that money to spend, and nothing about the 49 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: situation is good for her in any way. One judgment 50 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: thing we're all supposed to do, where every outcome of 51 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: a life is just as good as any other outcome. 52 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: Some people just have AI boyfriends. What are you going 53 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: to do? What's the big deal? It's not healthy. There 54 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: are better and worse situations, and it's important to say so. 55 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: I'm big on living your actual, real life outside with 56 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: real people and not just on the internet. But this 57 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,559 Speaker 1: goes even beyond online relationships, and the normalizing of it 58 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: is something that we need to cut off. Yes, there 59 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: are lonely people and they need love and attention. Talking 60 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: to a non existent person through AI only moves them 61 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: further away from seeking that out. Thanks for listening. I 62 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: love getting your emails. I love all your questions. I'm 63 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: going to be answering some of them on upcoming episodes. 64 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: If you want something answered, if you have anything to 65 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: ask me, email me at Carol Markowitz Show at gmail 66 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: dot com. Coming up next an interview with Zaa Maamari. 67 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: Join us after the break. 68 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 3: Welcome back to the Carol Go Show on iHeartRadio. My 69 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 3: guest today is Soa Bamrii Sare is the new US 70 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 3: editor of the website Unheard. 71 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 2: Hi sah, so nice to have you on, Carol. 72 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 4: It's good to be with you. 73 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 3: Happy New y Oh, Happy New Year to you. This 74 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 3: is a real pleasure. I am a huge Saura fan, 75 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 3: even when I very much disagree with you, always enjoy 76 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 3: reading your thoughts, and I think that you're an unusual 77 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 3: voice on the right. 78 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 2: So I love getting into how did you get here? 79 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 3: What led you to be the US editor of Unheard 80 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 3: and you're my editor at the New York Post. What 81 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 3: decisions did you make that led you to this point? 82 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 5: Yes, it feels like those those you know movies where 83 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 5: you're like, you know, in a terrible state and let's 84 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 5: think back. 85 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:53,720 Speaker 2: Tell us what other decisions you could have made to. 86 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 5: Avoid exactly how could you have done this differently? So 87 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 5: it is really good to be with you. So yes, 88 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 5: So I just started this new role at Unheard, which 89 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 5: for listeners who don't know, is n H E R D. 90 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 5: So it's a kind of clever play on words unheard, 91 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 5: but also don't go with the herd, and it's it's 92 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 5: a it's a British publication, although we're now launching a 93 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 5: distinct US edition which I'm very proud to helm and 94 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 5: it's one of these publications. One of it's it's a 95 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 5: space out there typically called heterodox, where it's less about 96 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 5: political labels. You know, left and right become so tired 97 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 5: and worn out in our age, and. 98 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 4: It is so unheard. 99 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 5: We publish people basically from across the political spectrum, for 100 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 5: people who are rudy damn conservative to people who are uh, 101 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 5: you know, on on the on the left and including 102 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 5: like the socialist left. And the idea is that, like 103 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 5: in the presentation of these v was in testing all 104 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 5: of them, we can get to the truth and we 105 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 5: can maybe try to build a better world that way. 106 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 5: But the main thing is to try to understand the 107 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 5: world from multiple perspectives. So I was on the short 108 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 5: side of my stories. I was born and raised in Tehran, Iran. 109 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 5: I immigrated to the US when I was almost fourteen 110 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 5: years old, and I moved, of all places, to Utah, 111 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 5: northern rural. 112 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 4: Utah, and through a long I know that, yes, that 113 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 4: was the. 114 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 3: I can't really picture it, yes, suit at the time, 115 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 3: because I picture you very sharply dressed. 116 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 2: All the time. 117 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 4: No, no, this is a great question to ask. 118 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 5: I was horribly fresh off the boat in the sense that, 119 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 5: like I mean, I don't know why, but right before 120 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 5: leaving Iran, I went like my parents were bohemians, so 121 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 5: they would just let me buy whatever I wanted clothes wise, 122 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 5: they were like incredibly hands off even by even by 123 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 5: American standards, leteralone by Iran and standards. So like, I 124 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 5: bought a pair of overall genes to the middle school 125 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 5: and I was rightly mocked. So, no, I was not 126 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 5: dressed in it. I now basically only wear suits or 127 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 5: I'm undressed, like I don't have in between points. I 128 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 5: don't believe in casual clothes, which bizarre, but it is 129 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 5: what it is. But anyway, so I moved to Utah, 130 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 5: and long story short, I ended up at the Wall 131 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 5: Street Journal. I went to law school and never practiced law, 132 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 5: and I became an op editor there and a book 133 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 5: review editor. Was there for five years. Most of it's 134 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 5: spent in London working on the European edition of the 135 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 5: Wall Street Journal, which no longer exists. There used to 136 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 5: be something called Wall Street Journal Europe. 137 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 4: Now they've gotten rid of it. 138 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 5: Then I spent a year at the Jewish magazine Commentary, 139 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 5: and then I became the op editor of the New 140 00:07:55,560 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 5: York Post, where I had the pleasure of editing your columns. 141 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 2: Pleasure, pleasure, because. 142 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 4: They were great. 143 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 5: They were always very clean, you never had to do 144 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 5: much with them, and you write very fast and very 145 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 5: funny and have a huge, huge readership because of that. 146 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 3: So my own claim to fame is Surabamari published me 147 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 3: arguing in favor of the criminalizing prostitution. 148 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 2: So I mar your reputation everywhere I go. 149 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 4: That's right, you know, But we always had I have 150 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 4: to say. 151 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 5: It was one of the I believe it was one 152 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 5: of those debate kind of things where your column was 153 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 5: across someone who was for it. So yeah, anyway, so yeah, 154 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 5: we did this. We did this post thing together with 155 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 5: all the other writers, and it was a crucial time, 156 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 5: right because that coincided with the first Trump term and 157 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 5: then it uh COVID happened. And you know, even though 158 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 5: I'm famously not a libertarian, you know, we were definitely 159 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,479 Speaker 5: opposed to the lockdowns, and we published some pretty decisive 160 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 5: pieces trying to move us beyond lockdown early on and 161 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 5: opposing masking children, opposing like vaccine requirements and anyway. But 162 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 5: at some point I left in twenty late twenty twenty one, 163 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 5: I left to co found this magazine called Compact with 164 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,959 Speaker 5: a friend of mine, Matthew Schmidt. Both of us come 165 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 5: from the institutional right or center right, but we wanted 166 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 5: to kind of test the expand the horizon of ideas 167 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 5: that we could play around with. And hence, you know, 168 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 5: Compact came about as also a publication like the one 169 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 5: I'm now working for. Unheard is a place where you 170 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 5: can read bylines of people who you would never think 171 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 5: to see side by side, you know, someone like a 172 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 5: Trump administration alumnus, and then next to him is the 173 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 5: you know, Marxist philosopher SLAVOYHISIAT. 174 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 4: But there was a through line there. 175 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 5: I mean, there's a kind of world view there to 176 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 5: try to get something like a worldview, but to bring 177 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 5: it about in the clash of ideas rather than everyone 178 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 5: singing from the same song sheet. 179 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 4: Did that for three years. 180 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 5: And then you know, Unheard came along, and I was 181 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 5: just excited by the prospect of helping an established UK publication, 182 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 5: you know, grow in the United States. So that's my 183 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 5: like resume, which is boring. 184 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 2: No, it's interesting. 185 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 3: It's very interesting, and I think that is extremely up 186 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 3: your ally. 187 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 2: The bringing a UK publication to the US. 188 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 3: It's it's funny because you are absolutely heterodox, right is 189 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 3: that the right term? 190 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 5: Totally right in the sense that on economic issues. 191 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 3: But I don't think of you as it like that. 192 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 3: I don't think I think of this heterodox like the 193 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 3: team of people on the internet who are kind of 194 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 3: previously leftists, which i've actually you also were previously a leftist. 195 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 2: But I still see you as like a conservative. Am 196 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 2: I wrong? No? 197 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 4: Yes? Absolutely absolutely So. 198 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 3: There are Header knox Is like the id W to me, 199 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 3: that's the right, yeah, right, and I think they're they're 200 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 3: part of that family or part of that family as well. 201 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 2: Are you the like black Sheep cousin or. 202 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 3: They are right, you're like yeah, I'm the dad. 203 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 2: So you were. 204 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 3: Actually, you know, at the Post, you were very early 205 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 3: on allowing kind of a different opinion on COVID, which 206 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 3: was very rare, and I would say even at the Post, 207 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,080 Speaker 3: it took a little bit to get it out there, 208 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 3: but you were I consider you very brave. I think 209 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 3: that you did some amazing work there, and you let 210 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 3: me kind of hit the same theme every week, which 211 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 3: I thought was a very good thing because it needed 212 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 3: to be said. But you know, i'd write to you 213 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:57,680 Speaker 3: and be like, sorry if I need to write about 214 00:11:57,760 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 3: the schools being closed again, and you'd be like, all right, 215 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 3: let's go one more time. 216 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 2: What did that take? Did that like? 217 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 3: Was that a hurdle for you to get kind of 218 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 3: the unpopular opinion on the page of a storied American newspaper. 219 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 4: Well, I would say very early on. It was very 220 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:17,719 Speaker 4: early in. 221 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 5: The in the pandemic. I maybe two weeks in. I 222 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 5: just started to worry, and I worried in a very 223 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 5: visceral personal way. My own kids were not in school yet, however, 224 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 5: I was just worried about the restaurant downstairs for me. 225 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 4: I live in the east fifties. 226 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 5: In Midtown Manhattan, and you know in our downstairs from 227 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 5: our building is just a beloved restaurant, and the it's 228 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 5: not it's more than a restaurant we go to. The 229 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 5: owner is like a family friend to us, and I could. 230 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 5: I would go downstairs, like it wasn't allowed, you weren't 231 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,440 Speaker 5: able to eat in, but you could take away. But 232 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 5: like he would make me a martini, and I would 233 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 5: like to say, it would become a speakeasy basically because 234 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 5: I would like drink the martini there. You know you 235 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 5: aren't allowed, and it's likely yes, and then I would 236 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 5: take it away with me. And actually I still have 237 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 5: like a thousand glasses from this retagraunt because I would 238 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 5: take it upstairs and I'd be like, I'll return to 239 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 5: your glass, and then I always forget anyway, Honestly, it 240 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 5: was just watching him sweat about the future of his business. 241 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 5: And you know what small business owners are, like, it's 242 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 5: not about them, it's they worry about the payroll they 243 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 5: have to make. And so it became very visceral to me. 244 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 5: He became approxy, and now I was also worried about 245 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 5: my own livelihood in a way, right, like what if 246 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 5: if the economic pressure of lockdown keeps going what happens 247 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 5: in the New York Post, like lots of people go. 248 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 5: So I started like sending emails being like we got 249 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 5: to at least like introduce the kind of lockdown skeptical worldview. 250 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 5: And you and I were on like a chat of 251 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 5: mostly like mostly libertarians and me, you know, I'm more 252 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 5: of a kind of complicated conservative. But anyway, like I 253 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 5: was like, I got to get like Carol in there 254 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 5: and others. And then I would say, like, by late April, 255 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 5: the tide had turned at the Post, you know, where 256 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 5: my senior editors were like, Okay, enough is enough. And 257 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 5: in early May we ran a piece by another mutual 258 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 5: friend of ours, David Marcus, where he sent in a 259 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 5: piece saying enough is enough, like open up the city. 260 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 5: And I was just like, oh, we'll just run that online. 261 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 5: But Stephen Lynch, that then editor in chief of the paper, 262 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 5: was like, no, no, let's make this the cover. And it 263 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 5: became this iconic thing, discussed on every news network and everything. 264 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 5: And and then your pieces were about schooling, just hammering 265 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 5: the schooling over and against, you know, Randy Winingarten and 266 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 5: all these other people who we now know were. 267 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 3: Like, right, well now now they never wanted to close school. 268 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 2: Sorry, I don't know what we're talking about. 269 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 4: That's the biggest gas light that's en raging. 270 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 5: But anyway, so anyway, I would say, like early on, 271 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 5: I take I will take some credit for like, you know, 272 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 5: pushing this view, but like by April, you know, it 273 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 5: was my editors who you know, totally came on board 274 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 5: with that and we and they took some realists risks 275 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 5: in the sense that there were things we ran that 276 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 5: got censored by Facebook. Everyone knows the New York posts 277 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 5: run in with Facebook and the old Twitter over the 278 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 5: Hunter Biden laptop story. Yeah, what they don't know is 279 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 5: we ran COVID pieces. 280 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 4: So there was one. 281 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 5: Again a guy named Steve Mosher who's he's just an 282 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 5: a China skeptic, and he wrote an op ed and 283 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 5: it was presented as an op ed. This was in 284 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 5: February twenty twenty, so very early. The op ed said 285 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 5: something like, look, I'm not saying that the Chinese, you know, 286 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 5: definitely released this from a lab. But it's worth noting 287 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 5: that this city, Wuhan, is also the site of this 288 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 5: Wuhan Institute of Virology. It could be like you just said, 289 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 5: don't take them at third word, it's worth like investigating 290 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 5: or something like that, and that was banned by Facebook 291 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 5: using their like system where they send every article to 292 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 5: a team of people to fact check it. And in 293 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 5: that case, the fact checker for the story was somewhat 294 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 5: as an American scientist who had like a relationship, a 295 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 5: professional relationship with the Muhan Institute of Virology, so she 296 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 5: had an interest in like, so she had a clear 297 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 5: conflict of interest. Anyway, the point is we like repeatedly 298 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 5: face the censorship machine, and that was you know, just 299 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 5: took enormous courage from Steve Lynch and my other more 300 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 5: senior editors there. 301 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 3: So that was your you know, you were worried about 302 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 3: the future, and you kind of focused on that for 303 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 3: a while at the post What do you worry about now? 304 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 3: And what do you see the focus that you'll have 305 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 3: at unheard? 306 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 5: I still like every like yourself, Like I'm a parent, 307 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 5: and still I still worry about my kids. I think 308 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 5: the tenor of my worry has changed. I'll say when 309 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 5: they were very young, it was kind of the COVID 310 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 5: age and also peak wokeness age, and I was just 311 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 5: worried about like them getting somehow brainwashed or something on 312 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 5: these issues like gender and others where I just profoundly. 313 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 4: Disagree. 314 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 5: Nowadays, you know, as your kids get older and you're like, Okay, 315 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 5: well I have a stable life, I still worry about 316 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 5: them not not being bad people, but not being virtuous people, 317 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,679 Speaker 5: you know what I mean, just being like, you know, 318 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 5: our culture can be very selfish, and so like, I 319 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 5: want them to care about the poor, you know, like 320 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 5: they're they're going to grow up in affluence, a relative affluence, 321 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 5: you know, but how do you keep them grounded in 322 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 5: their parents' values again over and against the culture that 323 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 5: you know, the rewards being indifferent or being brutal even 324 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 5: that's like the moral fiber of my kids is genuinely 325 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 5: the thing that worries me. 326 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 3: So what will you do to kind of guide them 327 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 3: on that right path? How do you make kids who 328 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 3: grow up relatively rich care about the poor. 329 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 4: That's a really good question. 330 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 5: I mean, so I I take my kids to like 331 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 5: volunteering with the Archdee, I'm a Castholic convert. 332 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 4: We don't need to get into that. But to New York. 333 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 5: Our Chase in New York has this program where you 334 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 5: like help shop for a family around Christmas time, family 335 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 5: in need, and I make a point of taking them, 336 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 5: of course, like they give you the sizes of the 337 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 5: family and what to buy, and like my kids bring 338 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 5: these like enormous sweaters. 339 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 4: You know, like they don't fit the rubric of what 340 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 4: you're supposed to do. But you know, things like that. 341 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 5: I mean, certainly, you know, reading to them, you know, 342 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 5: et cetera, et cetera. 343 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:45,639 Speaker 4: All of it works. 344 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,960 Speaker 5: But I really have learned, like and you know this 345 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 5: as well. It's just what you preach in your words 346 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 5: as a parent matters so much less than how you act. 347 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,360 Speaker 5: And of course, you know, like I like to think 348 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 5: at Unheard or in my life as a journalist, I 349 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 5: try to, you know, advocate for a society that's decent 350 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 5: and humane and so on. But ultimately, I have to say, 351 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 5: in terms of parenting, all that matters far less like 352 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 5: what their dad published that day at Unheard. In terms 353 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 5: of your own kids matters much less than you know, 354 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 5: how they saw you interact with strangers or with themselves. 355 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,879 Speaker 3: Absolutely no, I think that that's definitely true. We're going 356 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 3: to take a quick break and be right back on 357 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:39,119 Speaker 3: the Carol Marcowitch Show. What do you see unheard, like 358 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 3: what will be there the point of view of the site. 359 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 5: Well, it's hard to say. The point of view is 360 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 5: to test every point of view. I mean, I think 361 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 5: that's the spirit of unheard, to be without fear and favor. 362 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 5: I think, you know, they also in the UK took 363 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 5: a very courageous stance during COVID. In fact, they were 364 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 5: the publishers of the original Great Barrington Declaration, which was 365 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 5: spearheaded by Jay Batarchaya and two of his colleagues. Jay 366 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 5: now has been nominated by President Trump to at the 367 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 5: National Institutes of Health, which is great news. So they 368 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 5: were the original publishers of that got and they fought 369 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 5: that battle very much so in a way like as 370 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 5: a journalist, as you know, you're looking for like what's 371 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 5: what's next, you know. I think one of the themes 372 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 5: that will be constant for me certainly is opposition to 373 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 5: law fair that is the use of law enforcement and 374 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 5: security agencies to make to make politics political disagreements something 375 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 5: for the FBI to deal with, which is what we saw, 376 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 5: I would say. Unfortunately, beginning in twenty sixteen, with Trump's 377 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 5: first election, it's like it's not that these people voted 378 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 5: the wrong way, and I'll try to persuade them no, 379 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,239 Speaker 5: like it was a Russian conspiracy and we'd have to 380 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 5: use like the CIA and the FBI to root out this. 381 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 5: I hate that worldview. I think it's deeply un American. 382 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 5: That's something I'll be watching out for. Is the establishment 383 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 5: going to try that again? I just you know, that's something. 384 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 5: It's a worthy fight. I think some of the others 385 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 5: have kind of gone away or I don't know. Maybe 386 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 5: you disagree, but I don't. I think the intensity of 387 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 5: like wokeness has somewhat the left itself. I should say, 388 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 5: maybe the center left is sort of realized it's yeah, well, 389 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 5: stinker at the ballot box. 390 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 391 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 3: I'm very worried that we're prematurely declaring victory here because 392 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 3: that center left is going to be forced directly back 393 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 3: into line by their far left. 394 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 2: The far left is very. 395 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 3: Good at motivating the center left by kind of threatening 396 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 3: them and calling them racist. 397 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 2: Or sexist or whatever. That gets them right back into. 398 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 3: Saying what they what they want said and doing what 399 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 3: they want done. 400 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 2: So I don't know. 401 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 3: I also the fact that these leftists have been on 402 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 3: a march through our institution for the last institutions. 403 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 2: For the last decades. 404 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 3: I think that we're going to see a resurgence of this, 405 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 3: and I hope that the right isn't like, oh, we're 406 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 3: done with this, because I very much don't think that 407 00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:20,120 Speaker 3: we are right. 408 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. 409 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 5: It's worth it's worth you know, watching right And actually, 410 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 5: and that's one of the things that I want to 411 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 5: emphasize now and unheard, is less like takes you know, 412 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 5: promoting this or that ism, liberalism, postliberalism, you know, conservatism, 413 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,399 Speaker 5: and more just like, here's what's happening in the world 414 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 5: as our writers and thinkers, and I hope Carol you'll 415 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 5: you'll become one of them as they see it, right, 416 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 5: and just more like here we're going to help you 417 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 5: see and understand the world rather than push someism to you. 418 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 3: The fear that you have of law enforcement kind of 419 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 3: directing public opinion or enforcing speech guidelines, do you feel 420 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 3: like some of that. 421 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 2: Comes from your time in the UK. 422 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 3: We're very famously in a moment right now with the 423 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 3: UK where talking, you know, criticizing child rapists is like 424 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 3: maybe worse than actually being a child rapist. 425 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: So does that at all influence you. 426 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 5: Well, you know, honestly, things were not as bad when 427 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 5: I was there, Right, You've had these cases where followed. 428 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 2: Us, they followed us down this crazy path. 429 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 4: Yes. 430 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 5: And also there's a kind of lagging indicator, you know, 431 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 5: like what happens in the United States ripples out to 432 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:42,399 Speaker 5: other kind of Western states at a slower pace, and 433 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 5: so we might have moved on from some tendency, but 434 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 5: it's only now peaking peaking elsewhere. I think that's a 435 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 5: real issue. But you know, I mean, I've just seen 436 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 5: some disturbing cases of like pro life activists who are 437 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 5: prosecuted or at least investigated from merely praying silently outside 438 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 5: a clinic. Whatever views you might have on abortion, people 439 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 5: can have a range of views. 440 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 4: That's terrifying, right, it's. 441 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 5: And it's it's disturbing because there was always this guarantee 442 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 5: that although the UK doesn't have a written constitution, traditions 443 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 5: are so strong and those traditions informed are written constitution. 444 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 5: But if you have a society or you know a 445 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 5: set of ideologues who are willing to dispense with all 446 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 5: of that, and then you don't have a written. 447 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 4: Constitution, it's a little bit. It's a little scary. Yeah, 448 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 4: it's true, more than a little scary. 449 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 450 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 3: I hope we don't follow them at this point because 451 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 3: I could see us sort of leading into this words 452 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 3: you violence and taking that tech in America as well, 453 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 3: especially with Trump as president. I think the left has 454 00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 3: very few kind of bullets metaphorically in their gun, and 455 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 3: that's one of them. So yeah, what advice would you 456 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,479 Speaker 3: get of a sixteen year old sort in his denim 457 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:04,719 Speaker 3: overalls in Utah? 458 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 5: Yes, well, luckily by sixteen I had dispensed with the denim, 459 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:16,920 Speaker 5: But there's so much you know, I Number one would 460 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 5: be it is gonna sound terrible, But number one would be, uh, 461 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 5: and don't don't immediately sort of draw sharp lines of 462 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 5: friendship and enmity until you've gotten to know people or ideas. Right, 463 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 5: I think, as I think as a tendency of young people, 464 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,639 Speaker 5: but especially maybe me, like a kind of precocious kid 465 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 5: who likes ideas, is to very immediately, you know, kind 466 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 5: of draw lines of I am on this side, you 467 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 5: are on that side. And the older I get, the 468 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 5: more kind of I see complexity everywhere, and I see, 469 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,400 Speaker 5: you know, save for the really really evil and awful, 470 00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 5: which is real, and how people are like that out there. 471 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 5: I you know, I'm like, well, I can see how 472 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 5: a person of goodwill could come to this opposite conclusion 473 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 5: from mine. 474 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 4: I could, you know. 475 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,199 Speaker 5: And when I was younger, not just sixteen, but like 476 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 5: through my twenties as a journalist, I you know, I 477 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 5: was so sort of on fire and I'm like, I 478 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 5: know what's right, boom confrontation. And I just get older, 479 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 5: I'm like, I don't know, there are still very important 480 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 5: fights to pick, you know. But in terms of like 481 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 5: my social placement into like in a professional world, in 482 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 5: a social setting, I've become like a lot more forgiving 483 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 5: or willing to take second looks at my own opinions. 484 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 5: There have been cases where I've you know, written like 485 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 5: a brutal takedown of some journalists. Uh, you know, like 486 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 5: Richard Haas. I don't know, he's like helsel for our relations, 487 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 5: but he wrote a book that I just savaged. 488 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 4: And then like ten years later, I was like, you know, 489 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:57,479 Speaker 4: he kind of had a point and I and I 490 00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:58,600 Speaker 4: like emailed him. 491 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 5: And I was like, oh, the funny thing was, however, 492 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 5: and this is the cynical note to end this. Otherwise 493 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 5: uplifting a kind of note on is that, but that 494 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 5: by then he himself had abandoned the view that I 495 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 5: criticized ten years ago, so that he was sort of 496 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:18,640 Speaker 5: Richard House was. 497 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,120 Speaker 4: Like, well, thank you, but you see, I'm not quite amazing. 498 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 3: That's also the way it should go, right, You should 499 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 3: be able. 500 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 2: To change your mind. 501 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 3: Do you have that same grace extended to you because 502 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 3: you are sort of not quite as with your sharp 503 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 3: lines anymore. I think you do have a lot of 504 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 3: range now, and I see you kind of exploring those 505 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 3: gray areas more than you were saying I don't know 506 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:44,360 Speaker 3: ten years. 507 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 4: Ago, do you five years ago? 508 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 2: Are people kind to you about that? 509 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 5: For the most part, yes, And it's partly because like 510 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 5: as an editor, I might reach out to someone who 511 00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 5: knows that I'm not where they are, but I want 512 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 5: them to write for me and unheard or whatever, and 513 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 5: and you know that that professional outreach helps, and people 514 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 5: come around. I think like only the most sort of 515 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 5: uncharitable people on the on the on the left and 516 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 5: some on the right who are like you know, basically 517 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 5: have a caricature of me as I do of some people, 518 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 5: I'm sure, and they like refuse to let it go 519 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 5: in the face of evidence, and it's like, well, that's 520 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 5: what the block function is for. 521 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 2: They've taken away our block function. I love that block function. 522 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 5: I know that was one of the one of the 523 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 5: few things, one of the many things I should say 524 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 5: I don't I don't like about the new regime, even 525 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,479 Speaker 5: though I you know, I was literally censored under the 526 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 5: old order. 527 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 2: Well, you still may be in this new one. We'll 528 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:49,479 Speaker 2: see what happened. 529 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 5: Right. 530 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 2: Well, I've loved this conversation. 531 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 3: You're one of my absolute favorite people, and I think 532 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 3: this is a really great project you've got going. I 533 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 3: can't wait to read Unheard under your you know, leadership 534 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 3: in the US, and I'll definitely be writing for you. 535 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 3: So leave us here with your best tip for my 536 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 3: listeners on how they can improve their lives. 537 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 4: Oh, for me, it's just waking up super early. 538 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 5: You know, Catholic, you're supposed to believe in like this 539 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 5: rhythm of leisure and stuff. It's the Protestants, as you 540 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 5: know it's supposed to be. 541 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 2: You know, I know the Catholics had the rhythm. 542 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 5: Long ago, you know, that kind of sense of Sabbath 543 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 5: and feasting and so on. Whereas you know a certain 544 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 5: kind of Calvinists reform puanity. 545 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 4: Is like just toil. 546 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 5: But in my own life, I'm very much that kind 547 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 5: of a toiler. Like I love being up at what 548 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 5: I'm like three four in the morning doing work and 549 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 5: you feel like you're gaining. 550 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 4: Time on everyone else. Yeah. 551 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 5: But honestly though, I mean, okay, that sounds just purely 552 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 5: kind of materialistic or ambition oriented. 553 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 4: But also those. 554 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 5: Those early those early hours have a kind of mystery 555 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 5: and magic of out them that I just hate to 556 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 5: sleep through them. 557 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 3: I like that I'm not going to be following this advice, 558 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 3: but I enjoy it. 559 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 5: My wife always gets mad when I say this this 560 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 5: because people think that that means that I'm like only 561 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 5: sleeping like four hours a night. It's just I go 562 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 5: to bed with my kids, so I'm like out by nine. 563 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 3: Up arguing at eleven pm, what are you doing with 564 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 3: your life? Well, thank you so much, Sah. Check out 565 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 3: on her dot com it's U n h E r D. 566 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 2: He is Sora ba MARII. 567 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 3: He's fantastic and I can't wait to read what Unheard 568 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:35,719 Speaker 3: has to say. 569 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Mark 570 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: which shall subscribe wherever you get your podcasts,