WEBVTT - Maggie Rogers 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:24.156 Pushkin, Maggie Rogers has never been one demns words. Aside 0:00:24.156 --> 0:00:27.756 from her powerhouse voice, one of Maggie's superpowers is her 0:00:27.756 --> 0:00:32.436 ability to write pop songs fueled by radical emotional transparency. 0:00:33.116 --> 0:00:35.836 And while it's thrilling when an artist bears their soul, 0:00:36.276 --> 0:00:41.596 that level of constant vulnerability can be unsustainable. In twenty nineteen, 0:00:41.676 --> 0:00:44.876 after releasing her Grammy nominated debut Heard It in a 0:00:44.916 --> 0:00:48.916 Past Life and then touring the album relentlessly, Maggie was 0:00:49.036 --> 0:00:52.756 desperately in need of time away from the spotlight. Just 0:00:52.836 --> 0:00:55.396 before the pandemic, She retreated to her parents' home in 0:00:55.516 --> 0:00:59.556 coastal Maine. There she began writing and recording her follow 0:00:59.636 --> 0:01:03.956 up album, Surrender. Maggie also started to think deeply about 0:01:03.956 --> 0:01:06.716 her role as a pop star and the relationship between 0:01:06.756 --> 0:01:10.956 herself and her audience. In twenty twenty one, she enrolled 0:01:10.956 --> 0:01:13.916 in a master's program of Religion and Public Life at 0:01:13.956 --> 0:01:18.716 Harvard Divinity School. There, her studies focused on the spirituality 0:01:18.716 --> 0:01:22.956 of public gatherings and the ethics of power and pop culture. 0:01:23.716 --> 0:01:26.956 On today's episode, producer Leah Rose talks to Maggie Rogers 0:01:27.036 --> 0:01:29.196 about how comforting it was for her to become a 0:01:29.276 --> 0:01:33.116 student again. Maggie also recalls the time she took motorcycle 0:01:33.196 --> 0:01:36.916 lessons to rechannel the massive amounts of adrenaline she experienced 0:01:36.916 --> 0:01:39.796 on her first tour. And We'll hear the song from 0:01:39.876 --> 0:01:43.716 Maggie's new album that she says is the perfect distillation 0:01:44.196 --> 0:01:49.636 of where she is now as an artist. This is 0:01:49.756 --> 0:01:53.596 broken record liner notes for the Digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. 0:01:54.356 --> 0:01:58.196 Here's Leah Rose with Maggie Rogers. What's going on. How 0:01:58.236 --> 0:02:01.796 are you feeling. I'm good. I'm so excited to be 0:02:01.836 --> 0:02:04.996 back in the flow again. I took August and September 0:02:05.036 --> 0:02:08.196 to sort of more in the release and sort of 0:02:08.196 --> 0:02:12.556 recover from a big summer, and things are feeling really 0:02:12.596 --> 0:02:17.076 exciting again. And work two weeks from going back on 0:02:17.116 --> 0:02:19.636 tour when I've only really played three or four shows 0:02:19.636 --> 0:02:24.756 since the pandemic started. So I'm just so excited for that. 0:02:24.916 --> 0:02:28.476 And in the heat of all of the planning and 0:02:29.396 --> 0:02:33.156 fun goodness, band practice starts next week, so I'm feeling 0:02:33.236 --> 0:02:37.756 really excited about it. All excellent. So the show is 0:02:37.756 --> 0:02:40.876 called the Farrell Joy Tour, and that for me personally, 0:02:40.916 --> 0:02:42.876 I feel like that's like a high bar to hit 0:02:42.996 --> 0:02:45.916 every single night. So how do you muster up Farrell 0:02:46.036 --> 0:02:48.316 Joy night after night? How do you get to that 0:02:48.356 --> 0:02:51.476 place where you're just able to give that on stage 0:02:52.196 --> 0:02:56.676 Farrell Joy? To me, it's not just pure happiness, So 0:02:56.716 --> 0:02:58.876 you're asking about how do I conjure that on stage? 0:02:58.916 --> 0:03:03.756 It's not like going on stage and being the happiest 0:03:03.756 --> 0:03:07.716 girl you've ever seen, although playing music often makes me 0:03:07.796 --> 0:03:11.916 that person. It's about being present, and so much of 0:03:12.116 --> 0:03:15.436 playing shows, I really think is a practice of presence 0:03:15.436 --> 0:03:18.676 and you let the show unfold. And the thing that 0:03:18.756 --> 0:03:22.396 I love about shows is that it's really is uncontrollable 0:03:22.756 --> 0:03:26.196 and it's something that you can't repeat because each setting, 0:03:26.316 --> 0:03:29.876 each crowd, each single person in that room makes a 0:03:29.916 --> 0:03:33.116 real difference for what that show feels like and how 0:03:33.156 --> 0:03:38.076 that show unfolds. So the pressure of conjuring something each 0:03:38.196 --> 0:03:42.356 night doesn't feel so high because on stage is the 0:03:42.396 --> 0:03:44.796 place where I feel the most like myself and the 0:03:44.836 --> 0:03:47.436 most free, and I really am able to just let go, 0:03:48.116 --> 0:03:50.436 and I often have very little memory of being on 0:03:50.476 --> 0:03:54.396 stage because I am in such a flow other state. Yeah, 0:03:54.436 --> 0:03:57.996 So it really is just about letting the music come 0:03:58.036 --> 0:04:02.036 through and really enjoying it after not getting to do 0:04:02.076 --> 0:04:04.876 it for the last three years. When did you discover 0:04:04.996 --> 0:04:07.236 that that on stage is the place where you feel 0:04:07.276 --> 0:04:09.796 most like yourself? How old were you, like, when did 0:04:09.836 --> 0:04:12.676 that realization come to you? I think it's more that 0:04:12.716 --> 0:04:17.636 when I'm singing, I feel really present, because this idea 0:04:17.636 --> 0:04:20.716 of performing or entertaining never really felt right to me, 0:04:20.756 --> 0:04:24.236 and I always felt really shy from it because it 0:04:24.276 --> 0:04:28.156 has this sort of connotation of putting something on. And 0:04:28.916 --> 0:04:32.756 when I'm singing, I just feel so connected. I mean, 0:04:32.796 --> 0:04:36.436 when you tell someone how you feel, you can use 0:04:36.476 --> 0:04:38.636 words to explain it, but to me, when you sing 0:04:39.076 --> 0:04:42.436 and you have that real resonant frequency, you can physically 0:04:42.476 --> 0:04:45.956 show someone how you're feeling. For me, I'm just a 0:04:45.996 --> 0:04:49.396 person that feels a lot of things a lot of 0:04:49.436 --> 0:04:53.396 the time, and when I sing or when I'm on stage, 0:04:54.076 --> 0:04:57.236 it's a real space of expression. It's a space where 0:04:57.276 --> 0:05:01.196 I can let it out somewhere in a real constructive 0:05:01.236 --> 0:05:05.196 way and like connective way, because I think when you 0:05:05.236 --> 0:05:08.556 feel that much, it can often be kind of isolating. 0:05:08.636 --> 0:05:11.316 But the thing that music does is it it brings 0:05:11.316 --> 0:05:15.116 people together and reminds people of their central human qualities. 0:05:15.876 --> 0:05:19.676 Everybody knows what it's like to feel sad or happy, 0:05:19.876 --> 0:05:22.996 you know both, or have a crush or fall in 0:05:23.036 --> 0:05:27.596 love maybe, or have that like first Butterfly. So I 0:05:27.636 --> 0:05:30.756 think when I write down my innermost feelings and put 0:05:30.756 --> 0:05:33.076 them out there for the world, it also means a 0:05:33.116 --> 0:05:38.516 lot live when other people sort of say that it 0:05:38.556 --> 0:05:42.836 resonates with them too, because it makes me also feel 0:05:43.036 --> 0:05:46.076 like a part of a community. What happens after the shows, 0:05:46.236 --> 0:05:49.236 like where does that adrenaline go? And when you're not 0:05:49.436 --> 0:05:52.316 performing regularly, is there a way that you can replicate 0:05:52.636 --> 0:05:56.836 that feeling off the road. No, there's nothing like the 0:05:56.876 --> 0:05:59.916 adrenaline from a show, but I think that there are 0:05:59.956 --> 0:06:04.156 things that can touch it. After my first tour in 0:06:04.236 --> 0:06:07.876 twenty seventeen for my EP now that the Light is fading, 0:06:07.996 --> 0:06:13.356 I went to motorcycle school and was using motorcycles as 0:06:13.436 --> 0:06:16.836 a way to moderate my adrenaline when I was off 0:06:16.916 --> 0:06:20.156 the road, because I found that if I fully crashed 0:06:20.836 --> 0:06:23.836 like you're when you're getting an input of adrenaline every night, 0:06:23.876 --> 0:06:26.116 you start just living on this sort of other plane. 0:06:26.556 --> 0:06:31.556 And if you can normalize that, it can be somehow sustainable. 0:06:32.076 --> 0:06:36.276 But the second you come down, your body starts to crash, 0:06:36.476 --> 0:06:40.836 and because you're exhausted, your adrenals are shot, adrenaline burns 0:06:40.956 --> 0:06:45.316 through everything you've eaten that day. It's essentially a panic response. 0:06:46.036 --> 0:06:48.236 And so it would be really really hard if I 0:06:48.276 --> 0:06:49.956 had like a week off of tour, if I came 0:06:49.996 --> 0:06:52.276 all the way down and then had to push all 0:06:52.316 --> 0:06:54.596 the way back up. So I started looking for ways 0:06:54.676 --> 0:06:57.116 that I could in some sort of healthy or safe way. 0:06:57.636 --> 0:07:01.156 When I'm talking about motorcycles, I'm writing like with full gear, 0:07:01.516 --> 0:07:04.596 helmet pads and like thirty miles an hour on a 0:07:04.636 --> 0:07:07.196 back road with no one on it. Like I'm not 0:07:07.516 --> 0:07:10.796 in Los Angeles on a motorcycle, but like full leather, 0:07:11.196 --> 0:07:14.756 like had to doe motorcycle gadding. Yeah, I will protect 0:07:14.756 --> 0:07:17.756 it here, and I will say, like it's not really 0:07:17.756 --> 0:07:19.516 a part of my life anymore. But when I was 0:07:19.596 --> 0:07:21.836 learning to tour, when I was like twenty two to 0:07:21.916 --> 0:07:25.076 twenty five, it certainly was Wow, we'll see what happened. 0:07:25.116 --> 0:07:27.036 I guess. I haven't really been on the road since then, though, 0:07:27.116 --> 0:07:30.076 so we'll see what happens in this chapter. Yeah, I 0:07:30.076 --> 0:07:32.276 think it's just really nice to go do something else, 0:07:33.156 --> 0:07:36.196 to put myself in a new situation, or go learn 0:07:36.276 --> 0:07:39.236 about something or be around a group of people that 0:07:39.316 --> 0:07:42.236 have absolutely nothing to do with music. It makes it 0:07:42.316 --> 0:07:44.836 like really gratifying when I come back to music and 0:07:44.876 --> 0:07:47.036 I'm like, oh, I actually really know what I'm talking 0:07:47.036 --> 0:07:50.836 about here, or like this is the space where I've 0:07:50.836 --> 0:07:54.316 worked really hard over a lot of years to know 0:07:54.476 --> 0:07:58.276 this stuff. It makes me appreciate my skill set, I think. 0:07:58.636 --> 0:08:00.756 But it also reminds me that there is a world 0:08:00.756 --> 0:08:04.116 outside of music, because I think for the people that 0:08:04.796 --> 0:08:07.396 sort of treat it like a religion and eat, sleep, 0:08:07.436 --> 0:08:11.116 breathe it every day, there is quite a bubble. And 0:08:11.636 --> 0:08:13.796 you know, one of the best things about grad school 0:08:14.036 --> 0:08:17.676 was like realizing that most of my best friends at 0:08:17.716 --> 0:08:20.916 school listen to music like in the background when they 0:08:20.916 --> 0:08:23.156 were cooking, and they didn't think about who wrote or 0:08:23.196 --> 0:08:26.716 produced it, And I think, I can, I'm so insular, 0:08:26.796 --> 0:08:28.796 like who played that guitar and what preempt did it 0:08:28.876 --> 0:08:31.796 run through? And like it was really nice to remember 0:08:31.836 --> 0:08:35.636 that the way that other people listen to music, and 0:08:35.636 --> 0:08:38.996 there's no like good or bad or hierarchy out of it. 0:08:39.036 --> 0:08:41.356 I think that for better or for worse, there is 0:08:41.356 --> 0:08:43.836 a bubble, and there's a lot more happening in the 0:08:43.876 --> 0:08:47.796 world than just who produced that record? Or what's the 0:08:47.836 --> 0:08:51.396 top song on Spotify, Like it's nice to sort of 0:08:51.436 --> 0:08:55.316 zoom out a little bit. I read an interview with 0:08:55.356 --> 0:08:58.956 you on the Harvard Divinity site and it said that 0:08:59.036 --> 0:09:02.636 you want to be in school forever, which is something 0:09:02.716 --> 0:09:04.716 I totally agree with. I want to be in school 0:09:04.716 --> 0:09:08.276 forever too. There's so much to learn about, Like the 0:09:08.316 --> 0:09:12.356 world is crazy and humans have existed for a long time. 0:09:12.396 --> 0:09:15.876 The earth has existed for even longer. It's also worth saying, 0:09:15.916 --> 0:09:18.516 like I don't think that going to school is the 0:09:18.556 --> 0:09:22.676 only way to learn, you know, there are so many 0:09:22.716 --> 0:09:26.956 other ways to access information or to do that kind 0:09:26.996 --> 0:09:30.996 of study. I also really thrive in environments with the structure, 0:09:31.756 --> 0:09:34.076 and I am a little bit type A and like 0:09:34.476 --> 0:09:37.636 do really well with homework when somethings do you know, 0:09:37.716 --> 0:09:40.396 even on like a major label system, like the record 0:09:40.436 --> 0:09:42.716 is still do at a certain time, and art deadlines 0:09:42.756 --> 0:09:45.596 have the sort of like necessary push and pull. Yeah, 0:09:45.636 --> 0:09:49.436 but yeah, I just I love school, and it was 0:09:49.476 --> 0:09:52.476 really nice, Like I think at the end of that 0:09:52.916 --> 0:09:55.556 past life cycle, you know, I really went to school 0:09:55.556 --> 0:09:59.156 to think about touring and to think about my career 0:09:59.636 --> 0:10:01.756 and think about what it means to be an artist 0:10:01.796 --> 0:10:04.516 and to put some structure to that and really spend 0:10:04.556 --> 0:10:09.636 some like deep deep thinking time really figuring out what 0:10:09.756 --> 0:10:12.356 I believe about music and what it means to be 0:10:12.356 --> 0:10:14.876 an artist and what does a great show look like 0:10:14.956 --> 0:10:17.076 and what is the quality of that connection and how 0:10:17.076 --> 0:10:19.756 do you bring that to people. But it was also like, 0:10:19.836 --> 0:10:21.996 at the end of that heard it of past life cycle, 0:10:22.636 --> 0:10:26.916 my life felt really public and it was really nice. 0:10:26.996 --> 0:10:29.036 You know, the first day of class, I'd be like, 0:10:29.036 --> 0:10:30.356 why are you here. I'd be like, well, I made 0:10:30.356 --> 0:10:33.916 a record about reincarnation and that would be like an 0:10:33.956 --> 0:10:38.076 interesting fun fact for like four minutes. And then the 0:10:38.516 --> 0:10:42.036 lack of knowledge that everybody collectively had about the subject 0:10:42.116 --> 0:10:45.796 we were there to learn was this amazing equalizer and 0:10:46.476 --> 0:10:50.076 I got to be just part of class. Yeah. I 0:10:50.116 --> 0:10:52.396 think it's safe to say that most people, you know, 0:10:52.516 --> 0:10:54.996 you finished, you've put out your first album or your 0:10:54.996 --> 0:10:58.156 first major label album, you've done your first tour cycle, 0:10:58.236 --> 0:11:00.556 whatever it is, all the promo or the press marketing. 0:11:01.156 --> 0:11:04.596 Most people to learn more about the business if they 0:11:04.596 --> 0:11:06.956 were so inclined to do that. Most people might study 0:11:06.996 --> 0:11:10.676 old concert footage of you know, artists that they really 0:11:10.676 --> 0:11:13.756 admire or watch a bunch of documentaries. How did you 0:11:13.796 --> 0:11:17.076 get the idea to go to Harvard Divinity School? Like 0:11:17.516 --> 0:11:21.316 why go the scholarly route? That school in particular was 0:11:21.516 --> 0:11:24.236 there's like one program in the world, and I was 0:11:24.276 --> 0:11:27.676 in its first class, which was a Masters of Religion 0:11:27.676 --> 0:11:32.036 in Public Life, And it's for specifically people who don't 0:11:32.076 --> 0:11:34.676 work in religion and don't intend to, with this idea 0:11:34.756 --> 0:11:37.516 that a greater understanding of religion is a pathway to 0:11:37.596 --> 0:11:40.596 just peace in the world. And so it was like 0:11:40.596 --> 0:11:43.396 a peace and justice program in that I applied to 0:11:43.476 --> 0:11:45.876 the summer after Black Lives Matter, like it doesn't like 0:11:46.476 --> 0:11:49.916 the pieces line up fairly easily, and like it existed 0:11:49.956 --> 0:11:51.716 in one place in the world, and like I was 0:11:51.756 --> 0:11:55.076 really lucky they accepted me. There is an inherent power 0:11:55.156 --> 0:11:58.916 dynamic when you're on stage, like you're on a like 0:11:59.036 --> 0:12:03.316 elevated platform with a microphone, Like it's like and no 0:12:03.316 --> 0:12:05.876 one else has a microphone, so you're in charge. And 0:12:05.956 --> 0:12:10.156 I found that like I naturally have always cared about 0:12:10.356 --> 0:12:14.836 human issues because I'm a human, and those human issues 0:12:14.876 --> 0:12:21.556 to me are no gun violence or reproductive rights, or equality, 0:12:22.116 --> 0:12:26.956 clean drinking water, really basic, making sure everyone has food 0:12:26.956 --> 0:12:31.676 and shelter and access to rest. But I also find 0:12:31.756 --> 0:12:35.916 sometimes that that like platform, being on stage, people were 0:12:35.956 --> 0:12:39.436 asking me these sort of like unconventional questions about what 0:12:39.516 --> 0:12:43.236 I believed, like what did I believe about immigration policy? 0:12:43.356 --> 0:12:45.436 Or what did I believe was the right way to 0:12:45.476 --> 0:12:47.676 like break up with someone, or like these questions that 0:12:47.716 --> 0:12:50.956 you would like ask a religious figure or a political figure. 0:12:51.076 --> 0:12:56.556 And I studied like music engineering and production, so I 0:12:56.636 --> 0:12:59.116 sort of realized that I, like, like we do often 0:12:59.236 --> 0:13:03.436 look to musicians culturally as mystics sometimes for having these 0:13:03.996 --> 0:13:06.956 these answers to these bigger questions, And I think you 0:13:06.996 --> 0:13:09.556 can really only answer for yourself, because that's what I 0:13:09.556 --> 0:13:13.196 specialize in. Like maybe it's a little narcissistic, but I 0:13:13.276 --> 0:13:16.356 really specialize in being able to notice and communicate how 0:13:16.436 --> 0:13:19.836 I'm feeling, with the idea that like the most personal 0:13:20.156 --> 0:13:23.036 is often the most universal if you can really be 0:13:23.156 --> 0:13:25.876 honest about it. And I think it's cool too. That 0:13:25.996 --> 0:13:28.676 was the thing that I really realized being around these 0:13:28.716 --> 0:13:32.916 classmates who are just so stunning and brilliant and all 0:13:33.036 --> 0:13:36.876 very different. I realized the thing that I'm good at 0:13:37.516 --> 0:13:42.716 is really talking about how something feels. And luckily I 0:13:42.756 --> 0:13:46.436 get to do that professionally. I read part of your 0:13:46.756 --> 0:13:50.356 program was to do a live performance component, and then 0:13:50.396 --> 0:13:54.396 that was your Coachella performance. No, the record was nearly 0:13:54.436 --> 0:13:57.596 finished except for one song before I went to school. 0:13:57.876 --> 0:14:01.556 Oh okay, So school didn't impact the creation of the 0:14:01.676 --> 0:14:04.636 record at all, got it? Because the record making feels 0:14:04.676 --> 0:14:09.396 really private and really personal and really introspective. Lot of 0:14:09.396 --> 0:14:11.876 what I was doing was taking time to investigate the 0:14:11.956 --> 0:14:15.996 more public sides of my life or career, which are 0:14:16.796 --> 0:14:19.716 putting music out into the world and then touring it. 0:14:20.196 --> 0:14:24.476 And so I'm in this phase right now where I'm 0:14:24.516 --> 0:14:28.796 starting to integrate everything I learned in school and bring 0:14:28.836 --> 0:14:32.556 it into this tour that I'm on right now. And 0:14:32.596 --> 0:14:36.396 then I'm just like so excited for the next record 0:14:36.436 --> 0:14:39.596 I make because it will be you know, that personal 0:14:39.596 --> 0:14:42.156 component will be influenced by all of that growth from 0:14:42.236 --> 0:14:47.316 that year. But now school like became a really it's interesting, 0:14:47.396 --> 0:14:50.276 It became a really like fun headline for a lot 0:14:50.316 --> 0:14:55.116 of people. But it was a very quiet personal process 0:14:55.156 --> 0:14:58.996 as thinking about what you believe often is right, and 0:14:59.476 --> 0:15:03.116 it doesn't have a ton to do with the record directly. 0:15:03.516 --> 0:15:06.396 That makes sense, Although I will say I will say, actually, 0:15:06.436 --> 0:15:08.156 maybe the thing that it does have to do with 0:15:08.196 --> 0:15:11.196 the record is while I was making Surrender, I sort 0:15:11.236 --> 0:15:13.236 of knew I was applying to grad school and knew 0:15:13.276 --> 0:15:15.476 I was going to do it. And I think a 0:15:15.516 --> 0:15:22.196 lot of Surrender I made really feeling divorced from any 0:15:22.276 --> 0:15:27.116 form of career goal. It was really about the artistic 0:15:27.196 --> 0:15:32.316 practice and my artistic goals. And like I'm realizing as 0:15:32.316 --> 0:15:35.396 I'm talking about this that like there's definitely a part 0:15:35.436 --> 0:15:38.476 of that knowing that I was about to go spend 0:15:38.476 --> 0:15:41.756 a year outside of music that I think maybe even 0:15:42.036 --> 0:15:44.996 could have empowered my creative process a little bit more 0:15:45.156 --> 0:15:49.516 to stay outside of any sort of commercial or success goals. 0:15:50.196 --> 0:15:52.836 Like I knew I was on my way out, and 0:15:52.956 --> 0:15:55.236 I didn't know if i'd come back. You know, that 0:15:55.356 --> 0:15:57.916 wasn't like set in Stone. I knew i'd put the 0:15:57.956 --> 0:16:02.076 record out, but I don't know. I find a lot 0:16:02.116 --> 0:16:05.436 of this business to be really disheartening. And I love 0:16:05.516 --> 0:16:08.316 making music, but in thinking about what I believe and 0:16:08.356 --> 0:16:12.356 what makes me happen, it's also thinking about the structures 0:16:12.396 --> 0:16:15.796 around these things that I love and whether or not 0:16:15.876 --> 0:16:18.476 it's necessary to do it commercially or not. As far 0:16:18.516 --> 0:16:19.996 as like what's going to make me the happiest in 0:16:20.036 --> 0:16:22.716 the long run. What's your favorite part of your job? 0:16:22.996 --> 0:16:25.636 Considering everything you have to do as an artist as 0:16:25.636 --> 0:16:28.516 a public person, what's your absolute favorite part of it. 0:16:28.836 --> 0:16:32.596 I love making stuff, Like it's my favorite thing in 0:16:32.596 --> 0:16:36.876 the whole world, whether it's writing songs, being in the studio, 0:16:37.916 --> 0:16:41.196 getting to play shows. I love playing other people's shows. 0:16:41.876 --> 0:16:47.036 Like my favorite part of performing is guesting what other 0:16:47.036 --> 0:16:49.556 people shows because it's so much fun and so much 0:16:49.636 --> 0:16:52.276 less pressure. But I'd say my favorite part is probably 0:16:52.276 --> 0:16:54.356 being in the studio. It's probably the part I get 0:16:54.356 --> 0:16:57.156 to do the least. Yeah, we have to take a 0:16:57.236 --> 0:16:59.356 quick break and then we'll be back with more from 0:16:59.396 --> 0:17:06.436 Maggie Rodgers and Leah Rose. We're back with more from 0:17:06.516 --> 0:17:10.996 Leah Rose and Maggie Rodgers. When it came to starting Surrender, 0:17:11.036 --> 0:17:13.236 what was the world that you envisioned in your mind 0:17:13.396 --> 0:17:17.356 that started to come together and you started to realize, Okay, 0:17:17.396 --> 0:17:19.796 this is the direction I want to go in, this 0:17:19.836 --> 0:17:21.716 is the world I want to create. How did that 0:17:21.756 --> 0:17:25.476 all start to come together for you? So I started 0:17:25.476 --> 0:17:27.796 this record like I have started all the records, which 0:17:27.836 --> 0:17:31.676 is with the mood board. It was really visceral feeling 0:17:32.396 --> 0:17:36.476 like there's a smudgy red lipstick and a lot of 0:17:36.596 --> 0:17:40.796 leather and silver, and but also a lot of images 0:17:40.796 --> 0:17:42.836 of people sort of like in the middle of some 0:17:42.916 --> 0:17:47.076 form of ecstasy or release. And that's sort of common 0:17:47.156 --> 0:17:51.156 to other, you know, mood boards or records I've had, 0:17:51.196 --> 0:17:52.516 but heard it in a past life. Was a lot 0:17:52.556 --> 0:17:55.036 of like people in motion. There's a lot of like 0:17:55.236 --> 0:17:59.196 dancers in motion. I like, whoever's listening to this, I 0:17:59.316 --> 0:18:03.996 keep making this movement like I'm like, I keep sort 0:18:04.036 --> 0:18:07.356 of overzoom, like reaching out my right hand and sort 0:18:07.356 --> 0:18:09.516 of like looking up to the sky as I'm saying 0:18:09.636 --> 0:18:12.396 in motion, which is a little bit ridiculous I heard 0:18:12.396 --> 0:18:15.476 in the past. I've also felt very like airy and 0:18:15.836 --> 0:18:21.196 deserty and through California, and I'm glad I was spending 0:18:21.236 --> 0:18:25.516 my first time in La and Surrender. It feels far 0:18:25.676 --> 0:18:29.596 earthier and maybe even a bit of fire, And it 0:18:29.676 --> 0:18:33.196 was certainly grounded in New York and in the foggy 0:18:33.276 --> 0:18:37.396 landscapes of Maine, and in the UK at Peter Gabriel's 0:18:37.396 --> 0:18:39.196 Real World studios, where I made a lot of this record. 0:18:39.236 --> 0:18:42.596 Too Cool. It wants to be really clear about what 0:18:42.636 --> 0:18:47.156 I wanted to make before I got anyone else involved, 0:18:47.476 --> 0:18:50.636 so I spent a lot of time gathering images and 0:18:50.676 --> 0:18:55.956 then also doing like research on my own, making demos, 0:18:56.596 --> 0:19:00.196 writing a bunch of songs. I wrote maybe a hundred 0:19:00.196 --> 0:19:04.196 songs for this record, and even like I basically made 0:19:04.196 --> 0:19:09.076 a sort of shittier second record that'll probably never come out, 0:19:09.556 --> 0:19:13.156 like I made like light On Part two, like fully produced, 0:19:13.796 --> 0:19:18.556 and then was like, okay, what else if that's the 0:19:18.636 --> 0:19:21.276 first step forward, what's the next step? And was able 0:19:21.316 --> 0:19:24.076 to sort of take that next artistically, if I think, 0:19:24.076 --> 0:19:27.716 because I had spent all that time sort of cleaning 0:19:27.716 --> 0:19:31.916 out what was ever in my brain. And then in 0:19:32.116 --> 0:19:35.356 Maine still I where I lived for a lot of 0:19:35.356 --> 0:19:38.596 the pandemic that summer, so it would have been summer 0:19:38.596 --> 0:19:43.036 of twenty twenty, the first song started to come that 0:19:43.596 --> 0:19:45.836 really felt like the mood board and really felt like 0:19:45.876 --> 0:19:49.676 the world. And that first song was Anywhere with You, 0:19:50.036 --> 0:19:53.756 And it was also like probably the last song we finished, too, 0:19:53.796 --> 0:19:58.876 because it's a long technical ride from a production standpoint, 0:19:59.716 --> 0:20:03.316 since so many of your songs feel so confessional, Yeah, 0:20:04.916 --> 0:20:07.036 do you I wonder this like I wonder this with comedians, 0:20:07.076 --> 0:20:09.316 like do you have moments in your life where you're 0:20:09.316 --> 0:20:13.156 in maybe like a passionate moment, an intense moment with 0:20:13.196 --> 0:20:15.476 another person, and you're like, this is a song, this 0:20:15.556 --> 0:20:19.196 is a pre chorus, Like this is all getting recorded 0:20:19.596 --> 0:20:23.476 tonight when I'm home. I don't, And I'm grateful for 0:20:23.556 --> 0:20:25.676 that because that I think if I was in like 0:20:25.716 --> 0:20:27.516 a fight with a friend and I was like, oh, 0:20:27.636 --> 0:20:29.156 this is going to make such a good song, I 0:20:29.196 --> 0:20:32.876 would be a psycho. Well, it's like Jerry Seinfeld. He's 0:20:32.916 --> 0:20:36.436 like always working on material, Like every conversation is material, 0:20:36.556 --> 0:20:40.476 Like nothing is personal. It's all material. When I get 0:20:40.516 --> 0:20:44.316 to really feel like an artist, I am that way, 0:20:44.916 --> 0:20:47.236 but like feeling like an artist feels like a certain 0:20:47.276 --> 0:20:50.196 type of sunglasses I get to put on, where like 0:20:50.356 --> 0:20:53.236 I'm noticing the light or the detail, or like the 0:20:53.276 --> 0:20:56.676 way something taste. Sensuality is a big part of this record, 0:20:56.716 --> 0:20:58.636 and for me, it's a big part of being an 0:20:58.676 --> 0:21:01.596 artist because it's just really being tapped into the senses 0:21:01.636 --> 0:21:03.916 and the way things feel. But a lot of my 0:21:03.996 --> 0:21:06.876 job I'm also like, like I don't know a business 0:21:06.916 --> 0:21:09.876 person or like an email intern or like you know, 0:21:10.516 --> 0:21:13.836 when you make your art your career, there's other stuff 0:21:13.876 --> 0:21:18.036 to just do. Yeah, But also what I would say 0:21:18.036 --> 0:21:20.596 is a lot of my music is also looking back. 0:21:22.116 --> 0:21:27.556 It's quite reflective, and I find like all art is reflective, 0:21:27.556 --> 0:21:29.196 but a lot of it actually physically is in the 0:21:29.196 --> 0:21:32.356 past tense, and I find when I look back, like 0:21:32.396 --> 0:21:35.316 I wrote the last song for a Surrender and Thanksgiving 0:21:36.116 --> 0:21:38.636 during school and I haven't written since then. It's been 0:21:38.636 --> 0:21:41.876 almost a year. And when I go to write again, 0:21:41.956 --> 0:21:44.276 I'll sort of like look back on that empty time 0:21:44.276 --> 0:21:47.516 and pick out there are just like natural moments that 0:21:47.636 --> 0:21:49.916 stick out in your memory from the last year if 0:21:49.956 --> 0:21:52.956 you can think about them. And I really think about 0:21:53.476 --> 0:21:58.356 making records as a form of archiving or cataloging. So 0:21:58.436 --> 0:22:00.156 great to have that and to have a slice of 0:22:00.196 --> 0:22:03.596 yourself preserved so you can look back and yeah, see 0:22:03.596 --> 0:22:05.716 yourself and you have it going back since when you're 0:22:05.716 --> 0:22:08.356 in high school. It's incredible. Yeah, I mean, it really 0:22:08.476 --> 0:22:11.756 feels like going and visiting an old version of myself, 0:22:11.836 --> 0:22:14.716 or like a childhood photo, where like you're looking at 0:22:14.716 --> 0:22:17.236 this photo and you conceptually know it's you, but yeah, 0:22:17.276 --> 0:22:20.276 it is a completely different person and it doesn't look 0:22:20.356 --> 0:22:24.116 or feel anything like you. Yeah, it's really bizarre. It 0:22:24.156 --> 0:22:26.436 feels like a snake shedding a skin, Like it feels 0:22:26.476 --> 0:22:30.076 like that, that sort of shell in a way you 0:22:30.116 --> 0:22:34.076 mentioned writing light on Part two. Yeah, do you remember 0:22:34.116 --> 0:22:36.676 anything from that? I would love to hear where that 0:22:36.756 --> 0:22:39.796 song went now that you have more experience in your 0:22:39.796 --> 0:22:43.436 career has progressed. I remember it like it exists. It's 0:22:43.436 --> 0:22:46.156 fully produced. I made it that summer of twenty twenty, 0:22:46.156 --> 0:22:49.356 like I made a whole record oh of like songs 0:22:49.436 --> 0:22:52.356 sort of like that, And then I was like, this 0:22:52.436 --> 0:22:54.876 is so boring, Like I'm going to die if I 0:22:54.876 --> 0:22:57.516 have to go tour this for another year. Was it 0:22:57.556 --> 0:22:59.796 just because it was sort of like melancholy or it 0:22:59.876 --> 0:23:03.756 wasn't reaching any new ground or what was boring about it? 0:23:03.756 --> 0:23:07.156 It didn't feel new, it didn't feel challenging. It felt 0:23:07.196 --> 0:23:11.036 like strong songwriting, but it sort of like it was 0:23:11.076 --> 0:23:14.836 a little sweeter, like I don't know. It felt very 0:23:14.916 --> 0:23:18.676 much like the character of Maggie Rogers in Hurt It 0:23:18.676 --> 0:23:20.916 in a past life, but it didn't actually feel like 0:23:21.556 --> 0:23:25.276 the person Maggie in the current moment I was in, 0:23:25.996 --> 0:23:28.116 and I sort of had to like outgrow and kill 0:23:28.156 --> 0:23:32.076