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Speaker 1: Zone Media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to let you know this is a compilation episode. So

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Speaker 1: every episode of the week that just happened is here

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Speaker 1: in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for

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Speaker 1: you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.

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Speaker 1: If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Krapan here, but you know, very few things

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Speaker 2: actually happen. I'm adre Siege of the Ju Channel Anthraism. Now,

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Speaker 2: indigenousity is a contentious topic, no more than ever, not

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Speaker 2: when it comes to flora and fauna. Of course, as

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Speaker 2: far as I know, it's a pretty simple amount of

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Speaker 2: being considered indigenous to an ecosystem when they haven't been

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Speaker 2: introduced through human intervention or manipulated by human cultivation. As

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Speaker 2: over millions of the years, these living things have become

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Speaker 2: well suited to their habitats carefully adopts the region's soil,

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Speaker 2: climate and food web. When it comes to to people

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Speaker 2: who're talking politics, they quick some confusion about what it

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Speaker 2: means to be indigenous, especially when questions of land rights,

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Speaker 2: autonomy and reparations, and the equation. Most people understand that

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Speaker 2: Native American nations and Aboriginal Australians are indigenous, but they

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Speaker 2: don't really know what that means. Some might then ask, well,

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Speaker 2: if indigenous just means originating from a place they're on

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Speaker 2: all Homo sapiens indigenous to Africa, why should one group's

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Speaker 2: claim of indigenity take precedence over any other. Others may

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Speaker 2: ask the question, if a group occupies a region for

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Speaker 2: several generations, does that then make them indigenous? A White

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Speaker 2: Americans indigenous if their family has been there since the

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Speaker 2: founding of the US. A French fupial indigenous to France,

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Speaker 2: and if so, does that somehow justify there's enophobia towards

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Speaker 2: refugees When generations of martialized groups have been struggling to

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Speaker 2: retain their social, cultural, economic, and political sovereignty and achieve justice, reparations,

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Speaker 2: and liberation after centuries of oppression and attempting annihilation, we

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Speaker 2: to stand in informed solidarity. Thus, it is vital for

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Speaker 2: us to understand what it means to be indigenous from

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Speaker 2: what I gather through my research, which was focused on

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Speaker 2: the work of just a few North American indigenous scholars

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Speaker 2: Taiyaki Alfred, Jeff cord to Cell, and Robin wild Chimera.

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Speaker 2: Additionity can be interpreted as a matter of colonial relationship

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Speaker 2: and or as a matter of a land relationship, a

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Speaker 2: relationship to place. These two definitions are, of course, highly overlappened.

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Speaker 2: You really can't get away from how colonization informed the

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Speaker 2: land and vice versa. Let's start with the first interpretation

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Speaker 2: of indignity. According to Taiyaki Alfred and Jeff Gordicell, indigenousness

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Speaker 2: is an identity constructed, shaped, and lived in the politicized

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Speaker 2: context of contemporary colonialism. It is an existence oppositional to

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Speaker 2: colonial societies and states, and a consciousness of struggle against

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Speaker 2: such forces of colonization. No two indigenous groups are exactly alike.

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Speaker 2: Of course, there are significant diversity in their cultures, contexts,

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Speaker 2: and relationships with colonial forces, but they do share that

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Speaker 2: struggle to survive as distinct peoples in an environment hostile

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Speaker 2: to their existence. Efforts to marginalize and eradicate indigenous peoples

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Speaker 2: may not always be as avoid as they once will,

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Speaker 2: with some noticeably overt exceptions, but the historic and ongoing

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Speaker 2: dispossession of Indigenous peoples, the erasure of Indigenous histories, geographies,

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Speaker 2: and languages, and the current situation of deprivation persist. Nonetheless,

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Speaker 2: even so called reconciliation efforts are tainted by the reality

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Speaker 2: that Indigenous peoples remain, as in earlier colonial eras fundamentally

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Speaker 2: occupied and disempowered peoples, stripped of autonomy in their own

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Speaker 2: homelands and pressured into surrender and cooperation with an inherently

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Speaker 2: unjust colonial order just to ensure their basic physical survival.

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Speaker 2: By this understanding of indigenoity, it can be set up

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Speaker 2: without a colonizer, without systems in place and actions being

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Speaker 2: taken to marginalize, disempower and destroy their societies in favor

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Speaker 2: of a colonial replacement. There's no need for the concept

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Speaker 2: of indigenous. Without colonialism, there will be no status of

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Speaker 2: indigenous to be imposed upon the groups of people whose

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Speaker 2: very existence and claim to the land is an obstacle.

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Speaker 2: It is that colonial endeavor. The un work in group

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Speaker 2: of Indigenous issues, drew partially from this understanding when attempting

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Speaker 2: to define indigenous peoples in nineteen eighty six, quote Indigenous communities, peoples,

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Speaker 2: and nations are those which have in a historical continuity

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Speaker 2: with pre invasion and pre colonial societies that developed in

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Speaker 2: their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors the societies

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Speaker 2: now prevailing on those territories or parts of them. They

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Speaker 2: form at present non dominant sectors of society and are

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Speaker 2: determined to preserve, develop, and transmit to future generations the

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Speaker 2: ancestral territories and the ethnic identity as the basis of

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Speaker 2: their continued existems as peoples in accordance with their own

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Speaker 2: cultural patterns, social institutions, and legal systems. By this definition,

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Speaker 2: Amerindians in the Caribbean, Aboriginal Australians, Adivasis in India, Native

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Speaker 2: North and South Americans, Siberians, Ainu, Goods, Syrians, Yazidi, Palestinians,

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Speaker 2: amasaf Sami, Basque, Samei Basques, Hawaiians, Mari, san Guti, Papuans, Chams,

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Speaker 2: and many more are all indigenous peoples. There are layers

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Speaker 2: of nuance yet to be highlighted. The colonial situation is

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Speaker 2: not a simple binary of indigenous and colonists. For example,

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Speaker 2: in much of the Americas, Africans who were indigenous to

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Speaker 2: their own homelands were displaced and enslaved under the colonial regime.

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Speaker 2: They may not be indigenous to the Americas, but they

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Speaker 2: weren't trivants attla colonial society either. In fact, someone slaved

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Speaker 2: for inditionous people as well. At the same time, some

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Speaker 2: members of the African diaspora would join existing indigenous societies

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Speaker 2: and later create their own, such as the Garifuna of

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Speaker 2: Saint Vincent, Honduras and Belize. Meanwhile, in modern day Africa,

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Speaker 2: so all African ethnic groups can technically be considered indigenous

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Speaker 2: to the continent. The concept of specific indigenous peoples within

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Speaker 2: Africa refers to those groups whose traditional practices and land

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Speaker 2: claims have been placed outside of the dominant state systems

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Speaker 2: and exist in the conflict with the objectives and policies

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Speaker 2: implemented by post colonial governments, companies, and the surrounding dominant societies.

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Speaker 2: Such a definition can similarly be applied to modern day Asia,

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Speaker 2: where governments like Indonesia, India, China, Vietnam, and Bangladesh have

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Speaker 2: infamously refused to recognize the existence of indigenous peoples within

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Speaker 2: their territories. These countries, like most countries in the world,

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Speaker 2: did not ratify the International Labe Organization Convention one sixty

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Speaker 2: nine in nineteen eighty nine, known as the Indigenous and

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Speaker 2: Tribal People's Convention concerning the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. The

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Speaker 2: UN's Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous Peoples passed in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, would however, be voted on approvingly

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Speaker 2: by most of the world, including the same countries that

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Speaker 2: haven't recognized the Indigenous peoples within their borders. All four

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Speaker 2: of the countries have rejected that particular resolution. Canada, America,

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Speaker 2: Australia and New Zealand would later change their vote in

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Speaker 2: favor of the declaration, of course, with their own tact

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Speaker 2: on interpretations an emphasis on the declarations legally non binding nature,

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Speaker 2: as is to be expected from settler colonial societies. There

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Speaker 2: are approximately two hundred and fifty to six hundred million

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Speaker 2: Indigenous peoples around the world today, each facing the reality

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Speaker 2: of having their lands, cultures, and forms of organization attacked,

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Speaker 2: co opted, commodified, and reconstructed by various states, regardless of

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Speaker 2: their legal recognition. Inditionous peoples themselves have long understood that

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Speaker 2: the endurances of people will continue to depend on their

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Speaker 2: connection to land, culture, and community, which brings us to

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Speaker 2: the second interpretation of indigenity, closely related to the first

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Speaker 2: as an identity rooted in a relationship to place, whether

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Speaker 2: that be physical as with land, social as with community,

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Speaker 2: or cultural as with culture and justus. Relationship to land

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Speaker 2: must be reciprocal, with give and take, based on a

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Speaker 2: view of the land and water as a gift that

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Speaker 2: must be cared for over generations. According to Hodenosuni mythology,

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Speaker 2: as recounted by Robin waal Chimura in Breadain Sweet Grass,

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Speaker 2: the mother goddess Skywoman came to the land as an

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Speaker 2: immigrant from the heavens, but became indigenous by listening to

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Speaker 2: the land, learn from other species to understand how to

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Speaker 2: live on it, given as she received, and caring for

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Speaker 2: the earth and its keepers for the sake of those

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Speaker 2: who would inherit it when she passed on. In their view,

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Speaker 2: the land is identity, It is ancestral connection, It is pharmacy.

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Speaker 2: It is a library, and it is home, the source

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Speaker 2: of all that sustains, and the sacred ground upon which

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Speaker 2: those would observe their responsibility to the world. By this understanding,

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Speaker 2: it can be said that indigenity is born out of

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Speaker 2: land connection, established through observation and relationship. Indigenous peoples have

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Speaker 2: historically been mobile, either by choice or by force, but

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Speaker 2: regardless of where they might find themselves home land or not,

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Speaker 2: even if there were other indigenous peoples in their new environments,

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Speaker 2: as long as they observed the processes and ceremonies of

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Speaker 2: generational relationship building based on mutual respect, understanding, and love

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Speaker 2: for the land in common, they remained indigenous. So then

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Speaker 2: the question might arise, why aren't settlers to place if

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Speaker 2: their family has lived in land for generations. The answer

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Speaker 2: lies in relationship. Settler society as a whole is based

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Speaker 2: on an extractivist capitalist relationship with the land, focus on

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Speaker 2: exploiting the land and its resources. Without a relationship with

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Speaker 2: the land that extends reverence to a deeper understanding of

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Speaker 2: its complex interdependence, settler society can never become indigenous to place.

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Speaker 2: Of course, it goes without saying that every indigenous group

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Speaker 2: or indigenous practice is perfectly sustainable. Some have been rather

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Speaker 2: destructive and even speciocidal. But if we are to work

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Speaker 2: with this definition, to conceive of being indigenous is something

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Speaker 2: based on cultivating a long term relationship to place. That

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Speaker 2: indigenity must be contingent on maintaining the health and longevity

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Speaker 2: of that relationship. Without community, there cannot be indigenity, much

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Speaker 2: like the trees in a forest are interconnected by subterranean

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Speaker 2: networks of my curacy which enable them to share resources

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Speaker 2: and survive as a whole. In order to be indigenous

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Speaker 2: to place, community must exist to sustain that web of

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Speaker 2: reciprocitude the land so that it all may flourish. Inditionity

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Speaker 2: to place extends to culture as well, which is deeply

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Speaker 2: tied to the land. It develops on cultural ceremonies. According

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Speaker 2: to Chimera, focus attention, attention becomes intention. If you stand

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Speaker 2: together and profess a thing before your community, it holds

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Speaker 2: you accountable. Ceremonies transcend the boundaries of the individual and

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Speaker 2: resonate beyond the human realm. Such practices should be reciprocal,

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Speaker 2: as ceremonies create communities, and communities create ceremonies as well

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Speaker 2: as organic, not appropriate and existing cultural celebrations or attending

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Speaker 2: toward the commercial. Our social fabric has become withered and

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Speaker 2: fragmented by the pace of modern life, leaving little room

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Speaker 2: for ceremonies outside of religion or rights of personal transitions

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Speaker 2: such as birthdays, weddings, and funerals. But ceremonies and the

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Speaker 2: shared emotions they generate are part of what builds community.

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Speaker 2: When we gather for graduations, for example, a sense of pride, relief, nostalgia,

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Speaker 2: and excitement build in the social atmosphere, hopefully fuel in

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Speaker 2: the conference and strength of those who are going on

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Speaker 2: to pursue their passions. But Kimura wants us to imagine

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Speaker 2: standing by a river flooded with those same feelings as

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Speaker 2: the salmon margins the auditorium of their estuary. Being indigenous

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Speaker 2: to place means cultivating cultural ceremonies that honor the land

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Speaker 2: and all the cycles and seasons of life within it.

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Speaker 2: Now that we have a clearer understanding of these two

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Speaker 2: distinct yet related understandings of indigenity as both an identity

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Speaker 2: formed as part of a cluar relationship and an identity

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Speaker 2: rooted in a relationship to place, I believe that we

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Speaker 2: should explore how this understanding can be applied to decolonization

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Speaker 2: and social revolution. Decolonization is the process of unsettling clonial

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Speaker 2: power structures, whether that be through overturning acts of inclosure

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Speaker 2: by building new commons, overturning acts of possession by reclaiming

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Speaker 2: our spaces and identities, or overturning acts of administration through

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Speaker 2: social revolution. Social revolution is a complete transformation of our society, economy, culture, philosophy, technology,

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Speaker 2: relationships and politics, an ongoing and heterogenous change in people's powers, tribes,

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Speaker 2: and consciousness through practical education, as well as a progressive

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Speaker 2: breakdown and transformation of existence, systems and institutions, punctuated by

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Speaker 2: major ruptures and advances or with the aim of self liberation.

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Speaker 2: It takes confrontation with the powers that be, non cooperation

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Speaker 2: with the established order of things, and prefiguration of new

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Speaker 2: social relations, institutions, and infrastructure and practices in the here

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Speaker 2: and now. If we maintain the interpretation of additionality as

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Speaker 2: based on one's position and including relationship, then the deco

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Speaker 2: organization process will entail the abolition of that relationship as

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Speaker 2: the premise of identity and therefore the abolition of indigeneity

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Speaker 2: as a status. Colonial legacies have effectively left indigenous communities

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Speaker 2: legally and politically compartmentalized and culturally, socially and spiritually weakened

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Speaker 2: within the narrow parameters of the state, where they end

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Speaker 2: up diverting the crucial energy necessary to confront state power

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Speaker 2: and develop the process of the econization toward mimicking the

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Speaker 2: practices the dominant non indigenous legal political institutions through for example,

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Speaker 2: land claims and self government processes. What the deconalization movement needs,

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Speaker 2: according to Maya Yucateco poet Fliciano Sanchez Chan, are zones

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Speaker 2: of refuge, places where intitionous knowledge can be guarded, exercised,

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Speaker 2: and sustained. In Mesoamerica, these zones of refuge represent safe

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Speaker 2: spaces where the diverse cultural expressions of the region can

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Speaker 2: persist in spite of state for us to create a

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Speaker 2: homogenized Mexican national identity. The concept of zones of refuge

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Speaker 2: is consistent of the traditional objectives of cultural preservation and

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Speaker 2: autonomy or the social revolutionary aims of prefiguration, which seeks

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Speaker 2: to sow the seeds of future relationships, institutions and practices

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Speaker 2: in the here and now. To the expansion of zones

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Speaker 2: of refuge and other institutions of resistance and autonomy, we

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Speaker 2: can realize declonization in reality. But again, this idea of

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Speaker 2: addigenerative econization is just one understanding of the term, waiting

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Speaker 2: to explore another approach to the declonization one that recognizes

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Speaker 2: the power and potential of indigenous relationships with the land. Globally,

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Speaker 2: the UN recognizes that ADDITIONALUS people to protect eighty percent

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Speaker 2: of the world's remaining in biodiversity, and scientists have shown

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Speaker 2: that indigenous management practices in Brazil, Canada, and Australia provides

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Speaker 2: the same level of ecosystem support and protection as any

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Speaker 2: imposed protected area, which makes it abundantly. Theclonal approach of

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Speaker 2: conservation via dispossession removes the very people who take care

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Speaker 2: of our most important ecosystems. Over the course of Braid

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Speaker 2: and Sweet Grass, Robin wall Chimer highlights the reciprocal relationship

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Speaker 2: with the earth that many indigenous groups, including her Potwatomi culture,

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Speaker 2: have cultivated over generations. The principles of the gift economy

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Speaker 2: is an essential aspect of this relationship, which forms the

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Speaker 2: basis of indigenity to place. The gift economy is a

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Speaker 2: system of exchange where resources and services are shared without

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Speaker 2: expectation of remuneration or quit broquo. The gift economy extends

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Speaker 2: not just the people, but also our non human can

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Speaker 2: caring and being cared for. In turn, if we want

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Speaker 2: to restore that relationship, we can start by planting a garden.

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Speaker 2: A garden could be a heathen for native flora, arrested

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Speaker 2: in place for varius fauna, a feast for dangered pollinators,

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Speaker 2: a sustainer of local water table, and a hub of

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Speaker 2: thriving soil. Not only does it benefit both our health

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Speaker 2: and the health of the planet, but is also anurstry

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Speaker 2: for nurture in a connection that extends beyond that small

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Speaker 2: patch of dute. I don't believe that merely building a

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Speaker 2: connection of the land can make someone indigenous, but not

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Speaker 2: being indigenous doesn't exclude us from aiding the renewal of

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Speaker 2: the world. Kimer uses the example of the broad leaf

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Speaker 2: planting or son as the white man's footprint. Despite not

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Speaker 2: being indigenous to the Americas, it has become an honored

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Speaker 2: member of the plant community because it thrives as a

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Speaker 2: good neighbor instead of as a destructive invader, while other

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00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,679
Speaker 2: invasive species poison the soil or overrun the land. The

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Speaker 2: white man's footprint to call a strategy of helpful co existence,

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Speaker 2: even sharing some of its healing properties with those who

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Speaker 2: ask of it. It is not indigenous, but it has

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Speaker 2: become naturalized. Quote being naturalized to a place means to

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Speaker 2: live as if this is the land that feeds you,

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Speaker 2: as if these are the strains from which you to

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Speaker 2: build your body and fill your spirit. To become naturalized

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Speaker 2: is to know that your ancestors lie in this ground. Hey,

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Speaker 2: you will give your gifts and meet your responsibilities. To

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Speaker 2: become naturalized is to live as if your children's future matters,

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Speaker 2: To take care of the land as if our lives

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Speaker 2: and the lives of all our relatives depend on it,

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Speaker 2: because they do. Decononization requires to uproot invasive, irreverent and

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Speaker 2: destructive individuals, capitalist settlers, societies in order to rebuild in

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Speaker 2: a way that treats the land like the home that

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Speaker 2: we share and are responsible for. It will require us to

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Speaker 2: receive an honor the knowledge in the land, to care

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Speaker 2: for its keepers and pass on that knowledge to the next generation.

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Speaker 2: And it is crucial that we elevate indigenous voices, knowledges,

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Speaker 2: and pedagogical approaches in pursuit of this aim or power

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Speaker 2: to all the people. This has been a graper peace.

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Speaker 3: Hello, welcome, this is it could happen here and I

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Speaker 3: am shreen And today is another silly little episode. Well

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Speaker 3: it's not silly well, it is silly, but I think

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Speaker 3: it's actually also interesting, so maybe you will too. If not. Oops.

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Speaker 3: But the point of this is I do not like

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Speaker 3: being on my phone. I hate being on my phone.

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Speaker 3: I've always hated being on my phone. I waited until

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Speaker 3: the last possible moment I could, until I even got

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Speaker 3: a smartphone, but I just hate it. I hate texting.

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Speaker 3: I hate it all. And so especially the last several years,

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Speaker 3: I've been trying to read more and it's been great,

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Speaker 3: but sometimes my brain just needs a task for me

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Speaker 3: to do, like with my hands. So I can trick

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Speaker 3: myself to thinking I'm being productive just because I'm physically

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Speaker 3: doing something, and recently that's something puzzles. And look, I

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Speaker 3: like all puzzles. You can't show me a puzzle that

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Speaker 3: I won't at least try physical jigsaw puzzles that can

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Speaker 3: take hours or days to complete, like sign me Up.

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Speaker 3: But ever since getting a cat, it feels a little

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Speaker 3: too precarious to commit to one of these jigsaw puzzles

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Speaker 3: for the fear of her prancing around on the pieces

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Speaker 3: or knocking them over under furniture to ever be found again,

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Speaker 3: or chewing on them or eating them, and so the

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Speaker 3: puzzles I have been increasingly turning to recently, which I

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Speaker 3: have always loved are word and number puzzles, Sudoku, can

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00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:39,760
Speaker 3: can classics, incredible crosswords, cryptograms, code breakers. I can do

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Speaker 3: those for hours. I will say, though I do find

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Speaker 3: word searches pretty tedious and boring, But if I was

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Speaker 3: completely out of options, I would probably do those two.

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Speaker 3: There's just something really satisfying about physically putting pen to

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Speaker 3: paper and solving something. And yes, I always use pen

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Speaker 3: because I live on the edge, and as I said,

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Speaker 3: I do not like being on my phone. So I've

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Speaker 3: been buying puzzle books so I can have a physical

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Speaker 3: thing to write on. I've had puzzle books for years,

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Speaker 3: but recently it's become a bit of a problem. I

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Speaker 3: bought four different puzzle books in the span of like

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Speaker 3: two weeks, and not because I completed all the puzzles

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Speaker 3: in them per se, but because I just completed the

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Speaker 3: ones I wanted to do, usually skipping the word searches

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Speaker 3: or long riddles or whatever. And honestly, a much better

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Speaker 3: use of my fricking time could go to something like

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Speaker 3: learning literally anything else, like picking up a new skill,

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Speaker 3: learning a new language. But no my smooth brain wants

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Speaker 3: to do a fucking puzzle, so I do a puzzle,

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Speaker 3: multiple puzzles.

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Speaker 4: Usually.

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Speaker 3: Maybe you have noticed a trend, dear listener, in my

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Speaker 3: episodes that are not about Palestine or the so called

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Speaker 3: Middle East. Most likely you haven't noticed, only because I

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00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 3: think about myself far more than anybody else does. But

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Speaker 3: in order to not want to jump off a cliff

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Speaker 3: every day, I've realized I need to write and learn

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Speaker 3: about things that I like. Wow, incredible discovery, But for real,

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Speaker 3: I think we all need a balance of making sure

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Speaker 3: we're informed about the world and connecting with our humanity,

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Speaker 3: as well as doing things as human beings that allow

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Speaker 3: us to continue to want to be informed about the

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Speaker 3: world and connect with our humanity. So one day I

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Speaker 3: won't need this big preamble before every episode that's not

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Speaker 3: about Palestine. But today is not the day anyways, Because

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Speaker 3: I love puzzles. I wanted to learn about puzzles. How

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Speaker 3: long have humans been putting together word and number games

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Speaker 3: for the sole purpose of exercising our minds or dare

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Speaker 3: I say, have fun? I needed to know it's truly

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Speaker 3: one of the most wholesome things this species has ever done.

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Speaker 3: So I did some research. This episode is going to

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Speaker 3: be about the crossword. That's where I wanted to start.

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Speaker 3: Most of us would agree that the crossword is the

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Speaker 3: most popular or well known word game or word puzzle.

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Speaker 3: I will admit that every time I see a random

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Speaker 3: newspaper in a cafe or hotel, lobby or something, I

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00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 3: always steal the crossword and I ignore everything else because

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Speaker 3: now is simply not the time. But how did the

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Speaker 3: crossword come to be as this ubiquitous, normal thing. The

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Speaker 3: crossword is a fairly recent invention, born out of desperation.

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Speaker 3: Arthur Wynn is regarded as the inventor of the modern

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Speaker 3: crossword puzzle. He was born in eighteen seventy one in Liverpool, England,

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Speaker 3: and his father was the editor of the local newspaper,

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Speaker 3: the Liverpool Mercury. When Arthur was nineteen, he immigrated to

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Speaker 3: the United States, settling for a time in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

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Speaker 3: While in Pittsburgh, Winn worked on the Pittsburgh Press newspaper,

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Speaker 3: and he played the violin in the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra

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Speaker 3: We Love a Well Rounded chap He later moved to

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Speaker 3: New York City, where he worked as an editor for

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Speaker 3: the New York World newspaper, and then in nineteen thirteen,

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Speaker 3: he invented the crossword puzzle. While working at the New

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Speaker 3: York World, he needed something to fill up the space

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Speaker 3: in the Christmas edition of the paper's fun supplement Fun

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Speaker 3: in all caps, so he took advantage of the new

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Speaker 3: technology at the time that could print blank grids cheaply,

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Speaker 3: and he created a diamond shaped set of boxes with

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Speaker 3: clues to fill in the blanks smack in the center

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Speaker 3: of the Fun supplement. So for the December twenty first,

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Speaker 3: nineteen thirteen edition of The New York World, he introduced

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Speaker 3: this puzzle with a diamond shape and a hollow center,

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Speaker 3: with the letters f un already being filled in. He

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00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 3: called it a word cross puzzle, and nearly overnight the

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00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:57,119
Speaker 3: word cross puzzle went from a space filling ploy to

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Speaker 3: the most popular feature of the page. A few weeks

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00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,679
Speaker 3: after the first word cross appeared, the name of the

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00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 3: puzzle was actually changed to crossword, but this was only

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00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 3: a result of a typesetting error. However, these puzzles have

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Speaker 3: been known as crosswords ever since. Arthur Wynn didn't necessarily

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Speaker 3: invent word puzzles, though ever since we've had language, we've

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00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 3: played games with words. Crosswords are basically where two long

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00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 3: standing strands of word puzzles interconnect, the first being word squares,

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Speaker 3: which demand visual logic to understand the puzzle but aren't

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Speaker 3: necessarily using deliberate deception, and the second being riddles, which

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00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 3: use wordplay to misdirect the solver but don't necessarily have

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00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 3: any kind of graphic component to work through. Maybe you're

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Speaker 3: wondering what's a word square. Maybe you're not wondering that,

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00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 3: but I'm going to tell you anyway. The word square

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00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 3: is the direct precursor of the crossword grid. It's a

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00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 3: special kind of acrostic puzzle in which the same words

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00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,479
Speaker 3: can be read across and down. The number of letters

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00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 3: in the square is called its order. While two squares

404
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 3: and three squares are easy to create in English, by

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00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 3: the time you reach order six, you're very likely to

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00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 3: get stuck. An order ten square is a holy grail

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00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 3: for those who are regarded as logologists, that is, wordplay experts.

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00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 3: So a word square is a puzzle requiring the discovery

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Speaker 3: of a set of words of equal length, written one

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00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 3: under another to read the same down as a cross Apparently,

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00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,719
Speaker 3: the ancient Romans loved word puzzles. The first known word square,

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Speaker 3: the so called Sadder square, was found on a slab

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Speaker 3: in the ruins of POMPEII. The sadder square, which I

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Speaker 3: don't know if I'm saying that right, but it's spelled

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Speaker 3: sat r. It's also known as the rotess square, depending

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Speaker 3: on which way you read it, because rotess is satur backwards.

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Speaker 3: And I say this because word order apparently doesn't matter

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Speaker 3: in Latin. But this square that was found is a

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Speaker 3: five x five five word Latin palindrome. I'm gonna say

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Speaker 3: it in Latin, but I'll tell you what it means,

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00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 3: so apologies on this pronunciation. But satoor a repo, tenant

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Speaker 3: opera rotus the farmer, a repo works, a plow a palindrome.

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Speaker 3: Just a reminder that it's something spelled the same way

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Speaker 3: forwards and deck. So that's not necessarily the English translation,

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Speaker 3: but in Latin that's what it is. Author Adrian Raffel

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Speaker 3: described the Sadder square as the quote Kilroy was here

427
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 3: of the Roman Empire for those who don't know or

428
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 3: need a refresher. Not going to pretend I neew this either,

429
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 3: but kil Roy was Here was a popular American graffiti

430
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 3: that was seen overseas throughout World War II. The words

431
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 3: Kilroy was here were accompanied by a cartoon drawing of

432
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 3: a man looking over a wall, and this became a

433
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 3: popular piece of graffiti that was drawn by American troops

434
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 3: in the Atlantic theater and then later in the Pacific theater.

435
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 3: It eventually came to be a universal sign that American

436
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 3: soldiers had come through an area and left their mark,

437
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 3: and then during the Second World War, Kilroy became so

438
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 3: popular that this graffiti could be found everywhere. It was

439
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 3: on shipholds, bathrooms, bridges, and it was painted on the

440
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 3: shells of Air Force missiles. Its origins most likely come

441
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 3: from a British cartoon and the name of an American

442
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 3: shipyard inspector. The myths surrounding it are numerous, and they

443
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 3: often center on a German belief that Kilroy was some

444
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 3: kind of superspy who could go anywhere he pleased. Apparently,

445
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 3: there are two Kilroy inscriptions hidden in the World War

446
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 3: II Memorial in Washington, d c. And these were found

447
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 3: tucked in the corners of both the Atlantic and Pacific

448
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 3: sides of the memorial, and so the Satter Square was

449
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 3: essentially the Kilroy was here of the Roman Empire. The

450
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 3: square was found scrawled from Rome to Corinium, which is

451
00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 3: in modern England, to Dura Europos, which is modern Syria.

452
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 3: It's unclear why this ancient meme was such a thing.

453
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 3: Maybe it was the first meme ever. I guess it

454
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 3: depends on what your definition of a meme is. To

455
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,000
Speaker 3: repeat what the square says. The words in the square

456
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 3: are sator arepo, tenant, opera rotas the farmer arepo works

457
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 3: on a plow. A repo is what's known as a

458
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 3: haypax legomenon, which means it is a term of which

459
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 3: only one instance of its use is recorded or can

460
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 3: be found. This means that the Satter Square is the

461
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 3: only place where the word arepo shows up in the

462
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,959
Speaker 3: entire corpus of Latin literature. The best working theory as

463
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 3: to why this is is that it's a proper name,

464
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 3: invented only to make the square work. But the Satar

465
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 3: square has more tricks up its sleeve. If you reshuffle

466
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 3: the letters around the central end, which was in the

467
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 3: word tenant, you can make a Greek cross that reads

468
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 3: pator noster in both the and This means our father

469
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 3: I mean, come on, so clever, and then the four

470
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 3: leftover letters, the two a's and two o's. Those stand

471
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 3: for alpha and omega. Early Christians might have used the

472
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 3: square as a discreete way to signal their presence to

473
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 3: one another, and the Satar square stuck around for a

474
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 3: very very long time. In the Middle Ages, it was

475
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 3: regarded as a magical object, gaining a reputation as a

476
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 3: talisman against fire, theft, and illness. The devil apparently gets

477
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 3: confused by palindromes, so with the devil not knowing which

478
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 3: way to read, a five x five two dimensional palindrome

479
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 3: is an extra powerful devil repellent. The Satar square also

480
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 3: appears etched into tablets as a prevention against mad dogs,

481
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 3: a snake bite cure, and a charm to protect cattle

482
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 3: from witchcraft. While word squares have maintained their quasi mail

483
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 3: magic reputation for hundreds of years to come. Other visual

484
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 3: word games also became popular during the nineteenth century. In

485
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 3: the Victorian era, visual word games became extremely popular. These

486
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 3: visual word games include double acrostics, which paved the way

487
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 3: pretty directly for the crossword. Queen Victoria I guess was

488
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 3: regarded as a crucioverbialist, which apparently means a person skillful

489
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 3: in creating or solving crossword puzzles. In researching all of this,

490
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 3: I have learned many English words. I had no idea

491
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 3: or even words to begin with. So crucioverbalist Queen Victoria

492
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,239
Speaker 3: constructed what's known as the Windsor Enigma to teach her

493
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 3: subject how to bring coals to Newcastle. In her eighteen

494
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 3: sixty one book Victorian Enigmas, author Charlotte Eliza Cappell a

495
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 3: tribute to the Windsor Enigma puzzle to Queen Victoria. The

496
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 3: Queen was known to be fond of riddles and enigmas.

497
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 3: One hoax apparently kept her occupied for half a week.

498
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 3: From a passage from the Private Life of the Queen

499
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 3: by quote one of Her Majesty's servants, written in eighteen

500
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 3: ninety seven, quote, her Majesty, Queen Victoria takes delight in

501
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 3: a clever riddle or rebus, but on one occasion she

502
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 3: was very angry at having been hoaxed over a riddle

503
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 3: which was sent to her with a letter to the

504
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 3: effect that it had been made by the Bishop of Salisbury.

505
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 3: For four days, the Queen and Prince Albert sought for

506
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 3: the reply. When Charles Murray, controller of the household, was

507
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 3: directed to write to the bishop and ask for the solution.

508
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 3: The answer received was that the bishop had not made

509
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 3: the riddle nor could he solve it.

510
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 4: End quote.

511
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 3: Okay, Queen, we love feminism anyway. The Windsor enigma was

512
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,320
Speaker 3: basically like a riddle. And this is what it said

513
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 3: the Windsor enigma. The initials of the following places formed

514
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 3: the name of a town in England, and the finals

515
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 3: read up words what that town is famous for. And

516
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 3: these are the nine clues in this enigma. A city

517
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 3: in Italy, a river in Germany, a town in the

518
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 3: United States, a town in North America, a town in Holland,

519
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 3: the Turkish name for Constantinople, a town in Bosnia. I

520
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:23,959
Speaker 3: wasn't saying that with the list. It's not Bosnia. It's

521
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 3: spelled Bothnia, just fy. A city in Greece, a circle

522
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 3: on the globe. So when you solve these nine clues,

523
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 3: the nine letters which are on the left hand side

524
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 3: of these answers, it spells out Newcastle, and then on

525
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 3: the right side it says coal mines. When you read

526
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 3: it from the bottom to the top, as the riddle

527
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 3: says to do so, Newcastle's famous for its coal mines.

528
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 3: You know what else is famous for its coal mines?

529
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 3: I can't actually answer that question. I have no idea,

530
00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 3: but here's some ads. Okay, we're back. So. Another old

531
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 3: word game, which was a precursor to the crossword, is

532
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 3: a game called doublets. It was invented by Oxford mathematician

533
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 3: Charles Dogson, who was better known by his pseudonym Lewis Carroll.

534
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 3: In this game, you transform one word into another of

535
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 3: equal length, changing a single letter at a time, using

536
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 3: as few moves as possible. All the linking steps also

537
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,880
Speaker 3: have to be legitimate words. A lot of modern puzzle

538
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 3: books have doublets in them, including a bunch of the

539
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 3: ones that I have, and they're pretty fun. As in

540
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 3: a crossword, the process of moving stepwise letter to letter

541
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,320
Speaker 3: forces you to think about all the possible word combinations,

542
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 3: and each doublet has a theme, a kind of mini

543
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,879
Speaker 3: alchemy that keeps the words all somehow related to each other.

544
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 3: And Charles Doxon's are Lewis Carroll's eighteen eighty book Doublets

545
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 3: a word Puzzle. There are examples of this where he

546
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 3: says to quote, drive pig into sty raise four to five,

547
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 3: make wheat into bread. So the idea is that those

548
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 3: words become the other one with a couple of changes.

549
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 3: A classic classic word puzzle. And we're inching closer and

550
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 3: closer to how the crossword came to be, and the

551
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 3: crossword came about when riddles entered the grid. Crossword clues

552
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 3: trace their origins to riddles. Riddles have been around since

553
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,760
Speaker 3: the dawn of time and can be found in basically

554
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 3: every religious book, in ar scene, in mythology, in literature

555
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 3: for centuries and centuries. The Exeter Book is an eleventh

556
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 3: century Old English manuscript and it's the largest and perhaps

557
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 3: oldest known manuscript of old English literature, containing about a

558
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 3: sixth of all the Old English poetry that has survived

559
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:01,600
Speaker 3: until today. That's a lot. And it has about one

560
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 3: hundred riddles of all types. They say there are quote

561
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 3: unquote about one hundred because these riddles still to this

562
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 3: day drive people crazy. In the ten centuries since their composition,

563
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 3: scholars haven't conclusively solved every riddle. There are four basic

564
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 3: ways that quote riddle logic operates. One true riddles, two wordplay,

565
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 3: three neck riddles and four anti riddles. The enigma, which

566
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 3: is a metaphorical statement that's designed to feel like it

567
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 3: has one solution but actually contains unresolvable multitudes, is different

568
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 3: than this. The word enigma comes from a Greek word

569
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 3: that means quote to speak in riddles. It applies to

570
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 3: things as well as people that puzzle one's mind. Examples

571
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 3: of enigmas can be Egypt's ancient pyramids and how the

572
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 3: hell they were built, Amelia Earhart going poof, or the

573
00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 3: Bermuda Triangle being weird. Plenty of enigma occur in modern

574
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 3: times too. One example that people point to of this

575
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 3: is the twenty fourteen disappearance of the Malaysia Airlines Flight

576
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 3: three seventy. On March eighth, twenty fourteen, the airplane departed

577
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 3: Kuala Lumpur. It was bound for Beijing, China, but thirty

578
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 3: nine minutes after takeoff, the plane disappeared. It quite literally

579
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 3: vanished without a trace, becoming one of aviation's greatest mysteries,

580
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 3: and over a decade later, investigators still do not know

581
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 3: exactly what happened to the plane and its two hundred

582
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,439
Speaker 3: and thirty nine passengers. But just a few months ago

583
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 3: In March of twenty twenty four, Malaysia's government said it

584
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 3: may renew the hunt for MH three seventy after an

585
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 3: American marine robotics company that tried to find the plane

586
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 3: in twenty eighteen proposed a fresh search. A massive multinational

587
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 3: search at the time in the southern Indian Ocean where

588
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,800
Speaker 3: the jet is believed to have crashed, found nothing apart

589
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 3: from some small fragments that later won. Nobodies or wregage

590
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 3: have ever been found spooky, so that's an enigma. Examples

591
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 3: of enigmas with word puzzles could be something like what

592
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 3: is the sound of one hand clapping? These are logic

593
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 3: knots that want to stay knotted or not solved. Uh huh,

594
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 3: there's another little pun for you or riddle anyway. Riddles,

595
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 3: on the other hand, do want to be solved. A

596
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,800
Speaker 3: true riddle one of these four basic ways that riddle

597
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 3: logic operates transforms think a into solution B. True riddles

598
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 3: rely on a logical connection that's not obvious on the surface,

599
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 3: so you need to think more deeply about it and

600
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,399
Speaker 3: maybe a non conventional or non literal way in order

601
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 3: to reach the solution. When riddles become baked into culture,

602
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 3: they can turn into like inside jokes. Riddles have been

603
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 3: around for millennia, and the best riddles have been repeated

604
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 3: for just as long. One quote unquote famous riddle, if

605
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 3: you will, is the sphinx's riddle in Greek mythology. Just

606
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 3: some background on the Greek sphinx, because I personally found

607
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 3: it fascinating and very interesting. But the Greek sphinx was

608
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 3: clearly inspired by the Egyptian sphinx, but the Greeks modified

609
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 3: the sphinx and made it their own. The Greek sphinx

610
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 3: had a woman's face and breasts and a lion's body

611
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 3: with bird's wings, while the Egyptian sphinx had a male

612
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 3: head which could be either human or animal. The word

613
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 3: sphinx is Greek and it means quote strangler, perhaps stemming

614
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 3: from the fact that lionesses usually kill their prey by

615
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 3: strangling it. Since sphinxes were seen as very intimidating, the

616
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 3: Greeks frequently put them on gravestones to frighten a way

617
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 3: would be grave robbers. This use is called apotropaeic, meaning

618
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 3: causing someone to turn away. Most of the examples of

619
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 3: ancient Greek sphinxes that we have today are from ancient

620
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 3: Great Gavestones. So in Greek mythology, there was one famous

621
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 3: sphinx who turned up in Thebes shortly after its king

622
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,720
Speaker 3: Lias had been killed. While on his way to consult

623
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 3: the Delphic oracle. This sphinx flew on top of the

624
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 3: city walls and asked all the theban youths a riddle.

625
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 3: When they could not answer it, she ate them. Feminism

626
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 3: strikes again. At the time, Creon was the region in

627
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 3: Thebes since Lias had died, and he was so desperate

628
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 3: to get rid of the sphinx that he promised the

629
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 3: kingship and the hand of the widowed queen Jocasta, who

630
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 3: also happened to be his sister in marriage to anyone

631
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:43,760
Speaker 3: who could solve the sphinx's riddle. This was the sphinx's riddle,

632
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 3: which you may have heard before, which is why I

633
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 3: said it was quote unquote famous. What goes on four

634
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 3: feet in the morning, two feet in midday, and three

635
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 3: feet in the evening In the myth around this time,

636
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 3: Oedipus came into Thebes and he solved the riddle. Oedipus said,

637
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 3: the answer is man, because a man crawls on all

638
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,160
Speaker 3: fours in the mornings of his life, he walks on

639
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 3: two feet in the mid day of his life, and

640
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 3: then he uses a cane for extra support when he

641
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 3: is old. The sphinx was so upset that Oedipus had

642
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 3: answered the riddle correctly that she threw herself down from

643
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 3: the walls of thieves and she died. You know what, else,

644
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 3: died my soul when I realized we need ads to

645
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 3: make money. So here you go. Okay, we're back. We

646
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 3: were talking about types of riddles again. There are four

647
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:51,760
Speaker 3: basic ways that riddle logic operates, true riddles, wordplay, neck riddles,

648
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 3: and anti riddles. And we talked about the true riddles

649
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 3: before the break, and so now let's talk about word

650
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 3: play riddles. A word play riddle does this same thing

651
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 3: as a true riddle, but it adds an extra layer

652
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 3: of trickiness to it. So it's thing A turning into

653
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 3: solution B. But there is a slight catch in between

654
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 3: that has to interrupt the pathway between those things. First,

655
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 3: wordplay riddles include puns and other bits of linguistic gymnastics

656
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 3: to take the anticipated answer to the next step. A

657
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 3: ribis is an example of a wordplay riddle which uses

658
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 3: letters as part of the clue. A ribis is a

659
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 3: puzzle device in which words are represented by combinations of

660
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 3: letters and pictures. A neck riddle gives a solution that

661
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,879
Speaker 3: would be impossible for the solve to arrive at without context,

662
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 3: so question mark equals b. The term neck riddle comes

663
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 3: from stories in which the hero of the story uses

664
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 3: an unsolvable riddle to outwit a judge or a monster

665
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 3: and save himself from being hanged. So a neck riddle

666
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 3: saves your neck.

667
00:42:58,520 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 5: Wow.

668
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,760
Speaker 3: This is one typical folk tale example. As I walked

669
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 3: out and in again from the dead the living came,

670
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 3: six there is, and seven there'll be. So tell me

671
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 3: this riddle or set me free. You're probably never gonna

672
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 3: get this answer unless you've heard it before. But the

673
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 3: answer is a horse's skull that contains a bird hatching eggs.

674
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 3: Six have hatched, but one is still to come. What.

675
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 3: So a neck riddle has an answer that's so specific

676
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 3: it's deeply unsatisfying, because that's precisely the point. After all,

677
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 3: it's not meant to actually be solvable. It has to

678
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 3: stump the other person or in this case a judge

679
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,280
Speaker 3: or a monster to ensure that you or the hero

680
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 3: gets off scot free. Often that's achieved through over precision,

681
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,919
Speaker 3: but sometimes a change in perspective will do the trick.

682
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 3: In the Hobbit, our hero Bilbo Baggins best Scullum in

683
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 3: a riddle contest by asking him the unknowable what's in

684
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,760
Speaker 3: my pocket? And then there's the anti riddle. An anti

685
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 3: riddle is one that tricks the reader because it looks

686
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 3: like a riddle, but it's actually not a riddle at all.

687
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 3: It's basically a equals a For example, why did the

688
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 3: chicken cross the road? Seems like a riddle, but the

689
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 3: answer to get to the other side is just the

690
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 3: literal answer. So, in conclusion, a word grid and a

691
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 3: bunch of riddles. Those two things are what evolved over

692
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 3: time and over the centuries to bring us what we

693
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 3: know today as the crossword puzzle. Authorn Adrian Raffel, who

694
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 3: wrote the book Thinking Inside the Box Adventures with Crosswords

695
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 3: of the puzzling people who can't live without them, wrote

696
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 3: in The Paris Review in twenty twenty quote, if you're

697
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 3: a piece of artificial intelligence software, you might have a

698
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 3: hard time solving a crossword, you'd have to separate the

699
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 3: puzzle into two separate strands of problems to tackle the

700
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 3: issue how to figure out what a clue was saying,

701
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 3: or rather what it's precisely not saying, and how to

702
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 3: fill the letters in the grid in the way that

703
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 3: makes the most sense. Crosswords force the brain to cross

704
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 3: wires and solve both these problems at once, balancing the

705
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:16,919
Speaker 3: visual spatial part of the brain with the logic run

706
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 3: part of the brain. This is part of the reason

707
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 3: why even the best crossword solving AI in the world

708
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 3: isn't yet better than the best human. The AI can

709
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 3: fill in the grid pretty quickly, but in terms of

710
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 3: resolving that grid through riddle logic, humans are still a

711
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 3: step ahead. The most innovative aspect of the crossword is that,

712
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 3: through braiding together tasks the mind already wanted to do,

713
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 3: it created an itch we didn't know we had, and

714
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 3: yet we've always been primed to solve them. End quote.

715
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 3: And that is just a beautiful way to end this episode.

716
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 3: So that's it. That's the crossword. I'm going to go

717
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 3: do a cross word right now, because why not. I

718
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 3: told you I needed things to do in the beginning

719
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 3: of this episode, and this is my thing to do

720
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 3: that does not include scrolling on my phone and wanting

721
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 3: to die. So will that bye?

722
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: Welcome to it could happen here a podcast about it

723
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:37,000
Speaker 1: happening here. It being the slow crumbling of the old

724
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: world and the painful birth of the new. And here

725
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,760
Speaker 1: to talk about the painful birth of the new world

726
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: is someone who was compared to me very recently born,

727
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: Garrison Davis. How are you doing, gare good?

728
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:49,919
Speaker 4: Good?

729
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 6: As a new member of the KHive nation, I have

730
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 6: a new life under me now.

731
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've embraced the kamala of it all and are

732
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,840
Speaker 1: now just a are now just vibing? Yeah, it's a

733
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 1: beautiful place to be.

734
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 5: Yeah.

735
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 6: Unfortunately it might be just as a delusional as Biden's

736
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,479
Speaker 6: own insistence that he should be the one to run.

737
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 6: And that's kind of what we're talking about here today.

738
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: Oh good, I love delusion and its impact on American

739
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: political life.

740
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 6: So our initial post debate comments were a little bit frenzied,

741
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 6: a little bit chaotic, as was the debate, I suppose,

742
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 6: and post debate polls were also just kind of a

743
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:35,240
Speaker 6: mess initially, with wildly differing results from source to source,

744
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 6: but over time they have since stabilized and kind of

745
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 6: synced up to like seccifically put it, essentially, the debate

746
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 6: undid most of the pro Biden shifts that had happened

747
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 6: in the wake of Trump's felony conviction.

748
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:53,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've seen some polls have shown it tightening

749
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,359
Speaker 1: up a little bit again, but it's very I mean,

750
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 1: I always wonder, like how much you've got kind of

751
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: two camps, broadly speaking in terms of the people who

752
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 1: seem like they're not completely insane. One of them is

753
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,280
Speaker 1: kind of the Nate Silver side of things, which shows

754
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: Biden as having fallen fairly far behind and having you know,

755
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 1: he's got Biden about a thirty percent chance, which is

756
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 1: where Trump was in twenty sixteen, so that doesn't mean zero.

757
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,759
Speaker 1: Whereas the new five thirty eight polling average, and I

758
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: kind of have been following their new head of statistics

759
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,800
Speaker 1: for a while, has it still close to a dead heat.

760
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 1: And then obviously, you know, there's arguments that people will

761
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 1: make that trumpet or that Biden is actually very far behind,

762
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,760
Speaker 1: which have more to it than the arguments that Biden

763
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 1: that Biden is going to win in a landslide the

764
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 1: kind of democratic like the polls are wrong entirely. I

765
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:53,359
Speaker 1: don't think that's likely, but I think we're looking at

766
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 1: somewhere between Biden as a definite like underdog, or more

767
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 1: or less tied. I guess that's where it seems to me.

768
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: Like the evidence still is yep.

769
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 6: A USA Today Suffolk University poll conducted immediately after the

770
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,240
Speaker 6: debate gave Trump a four point boost. The week after

771
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,240
Speaker 6: the debate, a New York Times Siena poll found Trump's

772
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 6: lead had increased by three percent, now leading by six

773
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 6: points with lately voters. Other questions were pulled in the

774
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 6: wake of the debate. A CNN poll found that seventy

775
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 6: five percent of Democrats believe the party would have a

776
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 6: better chance at defeating Trump with a candidate to other

777
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 6: than Biden. And overall, yes, his number dropped or kind

778
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 6: of coasted with what it had been in like, you know, April,

779
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,920
Speaker 6: March February, and according to Politico, other than Trump in

780
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 6: twenty twenty, no incumbent has trailed this far behind in

781
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 6: horse race polling since Jimmy Carter's reelection bid forty four

782
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 6: years ago, which does not make me feel super optimistic.

783
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 1: It's not great, and man, it would be. I suspect

784
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,720
Speaker 1: the polls are still over emphasizing it to a degree

785
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 1: because if if Biden losing by six percent would be

786
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,240
Speaker 1: like the big the worst performance of a Democrat totally,

787
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 1: like a generation, like in a long, long time, and

788
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,160
Speaker 1: I just don't believe it's going to be that far off.

789
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,800
Speaker 1: But like it is. Definitely things are a lot uglier

790
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: than they were when we recorded our last horse race episode, right,

791
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:23,240
Speaker 1: Like the debate was somewhere between pretty bad and catastrophe

792
00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:25,720
Speaker 1: in terms of its impact on the polls.

793
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 6: Absolutely, but Trump, what Trump actually gained himself as a

794
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:33,399
Speaker 6: candidate is not very much. It's mostly it's mostly, it's

795
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 6: mostly decreases on Biden. And five pollsters did pre and

796
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,720
Speaker 6: post debate polls, and Trump is gaining on the margin,

797
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:43,880
Speaker 6: but in none of the polls did he gain anything

798
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 6: more than a four point swing. So they're all pretty

799
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 6: consistent and it's not all the end of the world

800
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 6: here either. A poll released last Saturday by Bloomberg and

801
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:56,440
Speaker 6: Morning Console showed Biden narrowing Trump's post debate lead, specifically

802
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 6: in swing states, with only a two percent difference between

803
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 6: all seven in swing states, with Biden being ahead in

804
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,720
Speaker 6: Michigan and Wisconsin. Yeah, two percent is within that margin

805
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 6: of error, So things are also starting to level up

806
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:09,959
Speaker 6: over time.

807
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think some of this may have to

808
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 1: do We're going to talk a bit about Project twenty

809
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 1: twenty five, which I tend to think, and we've been

810
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: chatting about this online all week in our work chat.

811
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:28,240
Speaker 1: People are overemphasizing as opposed to what Trump is because

812
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:32,840
Speaker 1: Agenda Project twenty twenty five is basically a blueprint for

813
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 1: a Christian fascist takeover of the US, published by the

814
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,359
Speaker 1: Heritage Foundation, and a lot of people who have been

815
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: affiliated with Trump, who were in his administration last time,

816
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 1: have are on board with it, have talked about it,

817
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 1: have boosted it, So people are obviously scared of it.

818
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 1: I think what Trump is actually promised to do in office,

819
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 1: which is the Agenda forty seven, we did a whole

820
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: week of stuff on it, is a more realistic thing

821
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 1: to be afraid of. But either way, I think that

822
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 1: some of that tightening is probably a mix of you've

823
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: got everywhere, you had a bunch of kind of on

824
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:11,240
Speaker 1: the fence, voters swing away from Biden because he performed

825
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 1: so badly in the debate, and then it has dims

826
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 1: have done a pretty intensive job of spreading out a

827
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:20,320
Speaker 1: lot of you know, what you might call fear porn

828
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 1: over a fascist takeover of the country, and I think

829
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: that's part of why things might be tightening back up.

830
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 6: I mean, it would be nice to eventually, one year

831
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 6: vote vote for something instead of just be voting against something.

832
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 6: But again, I'm not sure if we'll ever get to

833
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 6: that point to get yeah.

834
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 1: Hasn't happened yet. Well no, no, no, I mean I was.

835
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: I remember I got to vote for Obama the first

836
00:52:43,719 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 1: time he ran, and it was hard not to be optimistic.

837
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 6: So immediately after the debate, we had a whole bunch

838
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 6: of like friends of Biden, kind of upper level democrat,

839
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 6: not like online influencers, but like actual like influential, like

840
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 6: like pundits and people you know, call for perhaps Biden

841
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 6: should step down, perhaps we should find somebody else. And

842
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 6: this has kind of been the ongoing post debate ever

843
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 6: since the debate has been this question and we'll we'll

844
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 6: kind of get to this a little bit more later. Honestly,

845
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 6: I think we had a stronger chance at this possibility

846
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:18,759
Speaker 6: a week or two ago. I think by now Democrats

847
00:53:18,760 --> 00:53:21,800
Speaker 6: have largely kind of closed ranks around Biden, but this

848
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 6: is definitely still developing. And I've been keeping up with

849
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:28,240
Speaker 6: all of Biden's appearances in the media since the debate

850
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 6: just because I've been interested to see how he will

851
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 6: handle this kind of universal flub. I watched his ABC

852
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 6: interview and his recent phone calls into various morning news shows.

853
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 6: In all of those, he did not perform especially well

854
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 6: as expected. They were slow and sometimes kind of like mumbly,

855
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:48,400
Speaker 6: But neither have they been like the death blow to

856
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 6: his campaign needed to finalize the shift to an alternative candidate. Instead,

857
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 6: we're just kind of coasting along with this general uncertainty

858
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 6: regarding the Democratic candidacy, and meanwhile, Biden is just continuing

859
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 6: to affirm that he will be the one to lead

860
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 6: the ticket. I'm gonna quote from Washington Post here.

861
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 5: Quote.

862
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:09,720
Speaker 6: As of Sunday, nine House Democrats, four privately and five publicly,

863
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 6: had called for Biden to exit the race. In addition,

864
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 6: at least to eighteen current and former top Democrats as

865
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 6: of Saturday had publicly raised concerns about Biden's fitness for

866
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:22,799
Speaker 6: office and his ability to defeat Trump. Unquote, and it

867
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 6: has remained the same since then. There's gonna be meetings

868
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 6: in the next few days, including the day after we

869
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 6: record this. We're recording this on Monday, so there's gonna

870
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 6: be meetings in the Senate and in the House about

871
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 6: kind of this issue. So this is definitely still developing,

872
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,479
Speaker 6: but you're starting to see more and more politicians fall

873
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:40,920
Speaker 6: into rank. AOC just put out a statement saying, no,

874
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,839
Speaker 6: we're gonna We're gonna all support Biden. So like there

875
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:45,759
Speaker 6: was this uncertainty for a while, and now I think

876
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 6: people are kind of being told to, like, come on,

877
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 6: get on the platform. Yeah, but Biden hasn't been handling

878
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:55,320
Speaker 6: this well like personally either. He's come across like very angry.

879
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 1: No, the emails I've been getting from the Biden campaign

880
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 1: have been he's been blaving podcasters.

881
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 6: He's been blaming.

882
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, the media, and I'm kind of bummed that it's

883
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 1: the pods.

884
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:07,240
Speaker 5: Save guys.

885
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:10,120
Speaker 1: He got angry. Yet we've been shitty to Joe Biden

886
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 1: for so much longer than those assholes.

887
00:55:13,120 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, he's been treating it very weirdly. He's been doing

888
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 6: a lot of like a denial of the polling he's

889
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 6: been doing revisionist.

890
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,439
Speaker 1: History, very magical thinking.

891
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:25,399
Speaker 6: Regarding like twenty twenty polling. I think, I think kind

892
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 6: of referencing the Democratic primary, but still the way that

893
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 6: he's talking about it, it's making it sound like he,

894
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 6: you know, like he was behind in the polls in

895
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 6: twenty twenty. That was that Democrats were behind in the

896
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 6: poles in twenty twenty two, which just wasn't true. The

897
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 6: red wave comment was was certain pundits and Republicans trying

898
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 6: to conjure a red wave, but the actual polls were

899
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:47,240
Speaker 6: very accurate in twenty twenty two. And he's also crediting

900
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 6: himself for that red wave not happening in twenty twenty two.

901
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:52,920
Speaker 6: So he's been having a lot of weird statements, like

902
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 6: blaming media and blaming the elites for trying to replace

903
00:55:57,080 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 6: him on the ticket. I'll include one clip here from

904
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 6: Morning Joe, come on, give me a break.

905
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 5: I'm getting so frustrated, but by the Leaf.

906
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:07,799
Speaker 1: Now, I'm not talking about you guys, but about the

907
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 1: Leaf in the party, who.

908
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:11,480
Speaker 6: They know so much more.

909
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 4: With any of these guys, I don't think I should

910
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 4: run against me.

911
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:17,800
Speaker 6: Announced for president.

912
00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 1: Challenge man the convention.

913
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 6: Kind of his continuous line to justify his own candidacy

914
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 6: is has been him claiming that he won the primary,

915
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:31,400
Speaker 6: which is a ridiculous thing to say as an incumbent,

916
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 6: because like, come on, come on, and he has repeatedly

917
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:38,920
Speaker 6: said that that Democratic voters in the primaries have quote

918
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 6: spoken clearly and decisively. They've chosen me to be the

919
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 6: nominee of the party. That is not how it worked.

920
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 1: Quote.

921
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,239
Speaker 6: Do we now just say that process didn't matter, that

922
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 6: the voters don't have a say I declined to do that.

923
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 5: How could we stand.

924
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 6: For democracy in our nation if we ignore it in

925
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 6: our own party. I cannot do that. I will not

926
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 6: do that, unquote, which is just absurd, right because especially

927
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 6: there was many people who actually voted in the Yeah,

928
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 6: like a false primary for like the like other option.

929
00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, but like poles, just like them. Seventy

930
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,400
Speaker 1: five percent of Americans would prefer to vote for someone

931
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:15,280
Speaker 1: besides Biden.

932
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 5: Like it's it's.

933
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 6: Absurd, especially when you're running like an uncontested as an incumbent.

934
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 6: If you want people to challenge you, you could have

935
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 6: said so, like it's come on, like this is there

936
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 6: was there was no pretty goofy.

937
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 1: No real primary for the dims, and there usually isn't.

938
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 1: That's not abnormal with an incumbent, but in this case,

939
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 1: people have severe questions about the incumbent's fitness to do

940
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 1: the job in a physical way. Like I hate to

941
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 1: say it, but like Trump might physically be better able

942
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: to survive a four year term than Biden. Is you know,

943
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 1: not that I think he's mentally a better president. Sure,

944
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 1: I don't think honestly. Part of what we are accepting

945
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 1: here is that, like that's so that doesn't really matter, right,

946
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,479
Speaker 1: Like we're all kind of acknowledging if you're on team

947
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:05,080
Speaker 1: anything but Trump because he might end the concept of

948
00:58:05,120 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 1: democracy in this country, then you're accepting that, like, yeah,

949
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: I am not. I am voting for a guy who

950
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 1: probably can't really do the job anymore, and just assuming

951
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 1: that the people around him will not be as evil

952
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 1: like you do. Kind of have to accept that otherwise

953
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 1: you're just lying to yourself about the state that Joe

954
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 1: is in because he's not all there. He's not all

955
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 1: there the way he was in twenty twenty.

956
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:28,000
Speaker 6: No, but do you know what still is here just

957
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 6: like it was back in twenty twenty.

958
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 1: Capitalism, Baby, We didn't manage to take it out even

959
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 1: though we elected this our communist leader, Joseph Biden, chairman Joe.

960
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 6: Enjoy these capitalism sponsored ads.

961
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 5: All right, we are back.

962
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: Yeah. So there was a report that came out from

963
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: CHIP fifty, which is like an analytic project. It's like

964
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 1: the Civic Health and Institution Project, So it's like a

965
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 1: survey of all fifty US states, And they did a

966
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 1: survey on like opinions of voters before and after the debate,

967
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 1: and there showed like fairly small movement, like very little

968
00:59:19,280 --> 00:59:22,280
Speaker 1: was changed at all in terms of like and primarily

969
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 1: what was changed wasn't people going from Biden to Trump,

970
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:29,960
Speaker 1: but from people preferring from preferring Biden to preferring other right,

971
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 1: like that someone else someone else right. And so that

972
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:36,479
Speaker 1: does kind of go back to what we're like, people

973
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 1: are not making their minds up about Trump, like, and

974
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:42,280
Speaker 1: I think what the dims can do if Biden stays

975
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 1: in and he doesn't seem like he's leaving. It seems

976
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 1: like the primary thing that will make progress for them

977
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:50,640
Speaker 1: is hitting on how dangerous Trump having a second term

978
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,440
Speaker 1: will be. That seems to be what moves the needle, which.

979
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 5: Is part of their current strategy.

980
00:59:55,640 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 6: But the strategy is kind of all influx right now

981
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:00,920
Speaker 6: because of the poor performance the debate. They're trying to

982
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 6: save face on Biden's part, as well as emphasizing that

983
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:08,800
Speaker 6: Trump is like a dangerous possibility. And again, like, even

984
01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:11,320
Speaker 6: if Biden does decide to drop out or step down,

985
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 6: He's going to keep saying he's running until literally the

986
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 6: day that happens, right, because that is that is what

987
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:17,520
Speaker 6: you do as a politician. You were gonna you were

988
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:20,160
Speaker 6: gonna keep insisting it until one day you are no

989
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,680
Speaker 6: longer doing that, And that's just kind of how politics goes.

990
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:27,400
Speaker 6: But he has made continuous, continuous gestures towards the fact

991
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 6: that he is he is going to stay. He has

992
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 6: no plans on stepping down. He wants to win in November.

993
01:00:33,280 --> 01:00:36,120
Speaker 6: This Monday, he personally made twenty calls to congressional members

994
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 6: trying to convince them that he is going to be

995
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:39,400
Speaker 6: the one on the ticket.

996
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 1: No, really, guys, it's going to be me again.

997
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 6: Really, And I think part of what he's doing here

998
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 6: is like he does not have to demonstrate at the

999
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 6: moment that he will like survive until like November. All

1000
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 6: he has to do right now is run out the

1001
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 6: clock until the convention, and then it'll be too late

1002
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 6: to swap him for anyone else. There's a few other

1003
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:03,920
Speaker 6: people kind of saying this, and I believe that is

1004
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 6: kind of what is what is happening, that all they

1005
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 6: need to do is just keep delaying this question, keep this,

1006
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 6: keep this uncertainty until the convention, and then it's going

1007
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:13,680
Speaker 6: to get locked in there. And that's all he needs

1008
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:16,920
Speaker 6: to do. He doesn't need to demonstrate his viability come November.

1009
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:19,280
Speaker 6: He just needs to make sure that he gets that

1010
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:23,919
Speaker 6: he gets the official nomination this August. And I don't

1011
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 6: know biden supporters reactions to this have been really weird,

1012
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 6: including we've kind of had like a new upgrowth of

1013
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 6: a pro Biden personality cult among liberals. Wcause I feel

1014
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:40,200
Speaker 6: like largely like a culmination of like MSNBC Russia Gates,

1015
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:43,640
Speaker 6: like bluing on type stuff that people are just now

1016
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 6: convinced there's like a secret conspiracy to take down Biden

1017
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 6: and any attempts to question Biden's legibility as a candidate

1018
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:52,920
Speaker 6: could only be rooted in some secret agenda to get

1019
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:54,920
Speaker 6: Trump elected. So I think this is why they're so

1020
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:57,640
Speaker 6: volatile about this is that they think like the only

1021
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 6: one who would ever propagate questions over Iden's like legibility

1022
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 6: would be someone who secretly wants Trump to be in

1023
01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 6: office again, and that is such a threat to them

1024
01:02:06,280 --> 01:02:09,080
Speaker 6: that they they're lashing out very very oddly and very

1025
01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 6: conspiratorially against anyone raising questions about maybe Biden's not the

1026
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 6: best guy actually, and they're spinning this into like actually

1027
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 6: being secret Trumpers. It's odd because even the way Biden

1028
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 6: talks about his own drive to beat Trump is kind

1029
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 6: of wishy washy, certain like more polished statements will be like, yes,

1030
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 6: this is like a threat to democracy. We have to

1031
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 6: we have to do this to keep Trump out of office.

1032
01:02:33,480 --> 01:02:37,080
Speaker 6: This is an existential threat. But in that ABC interview,

1033
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:39,840
Speaker 6: he gave a really kind of soft answer to this question,

1034
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 6: saying that all that he needs to do is just

1035
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:42,200
Speaker 6: give it his all.

1036
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 7: And if you.

1037
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 1: Stay in and Trump is elected and everything you're warning about.

1038
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 2: Comes to pass, how will you feel in January?

1039
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 7: I feel as long as I gave it my all

1040
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 7: and I did the goodest jobs I know I can do,

1041
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:57,160
Speaker 7: That's what this is about.

1042
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 5: It was that's not convincing.

1043
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 1: That's such like a like ninth like cartoons for a

1044
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 1: ninth grader's way of saying it, like, well, what matters

1045
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:12,720
Speaker 1: is that I tried put all my best work board. No, man,

1046
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:14,160
Speaker 1: that doesn't matter at all.

1047
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:17,920
Speaker 6: Yeah it is. It's not great, it's it's it's not

1048
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:21,160
Speaker 6: it's not reassuring because it doesn't matter if you give

1049
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:23,640
Speaker 6: it your all. People's lives are are on the right

1050
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:25,240
Speaker 6: and you're just like.

1051
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 3: Eh, I'll give it the old college try.

1052
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:28,280
Speaker 6: You're like okay.

1053
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:31,360
Speaker 1: It means one of two things. He's either he either

1054
01:03:31,520 --> 01:03:35,400
Speaker 1: is completely delusional to the point where he doesn't realize

1055
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 1: how nonsensical that is, or he doesn't really think that

1056
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:41,760
Speaker 1: Trump is a threat to democracy in people's lives. And

1057
01:03:41,880 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 1: I guess the third option would be he doesn't care,

1058
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 1: like if he loses re election, fuck everybody, if he

1059
01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:49,360
Speaker 1: doesn't get to keep being president. Like maybe he is

1060
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:52,120
Speaker 1: just that kind of person. I do have a feeling

1061
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 1: that only that kind of person can become president of

1062
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 1: the United States.

1063
01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, like that was kind of my read

1064
01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:01,240
Speaker 6: after the ABC interviews that he seemed just kind of

1065
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 6: like delusional and narcissistic, like he really believes after twenty

1066
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 6: twenty that he's the only one that can beat Trump.

1067
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 6: And this feels like like a very genuine view of

1068
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:13,680
Speaker 6: himself that he's the only one strong enough to beat Trump.

1069
01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:16,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, And the more and more.

1070
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 6: That there's been pushback against his legibility, the more he's

1071
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:21,720
Speaker 6: been digging his heels in. And I think if things

1072
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 6: continue like this, I don't think the Democratic Party will

1073
01:04:25,040 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 6: be able to organize and unite enough to do like

1074
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 6: a soft coup and convince Biden to step down. And

1075
01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:33,439
Speaker 6: without a complete united front against Biden, he himself would

1076
01:04:33,560 --> 01:04:35,720
Speaker 6: need some kind of like excuse to allow himself to

1077
01:04:35,720 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 6: step down without sacrificing his pride and showing weakness both

1078
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:41,760
Speaker 6: in himself and the party. This could be like a

1079
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:46,200
Speaker 6: convenient medical diagnosis, right, although the increasing number of calls

1080
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:50,440
Speaker 6: for him to undergo thorough neurological examination will probably have

1081
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 6: the same backfire effect of Biden attempting as much as

1082
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 6: he can to avoid any in depth medical and neurological testing.

1083
01:04:57,320 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 6: He's been making these comments like every day I take

1084
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 6: an rological test by doing my job, and like, come on, man,

1085
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 6: we we're watching you do your job. It's not that's

1086
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 6: part of.

1087
01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:10,840
Speaker 1: The problem, bro, Like you got up in front of

1088
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 1: the like again, refer to the last episode you and

1089
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 1: I did on the horse race. Our attitude was like, yeah,

1090
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:19,120
Speaker 1: things have really improved for Biden. I think he's probably

1091
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:23,400
Speaker 1: the smart money bet. And like sitting down and watching

1092
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:27,880
Speaker 1: that it was horrifying, Like, yeah, there's no dinner. That's

1093
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:31,120
Speaker 1: part of why this. You have to if you're still

1094
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:32,920
Speaker 1: on team, Like, I don't think it's fair what people

1095
01:05:32,920 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 1: are saying to Joe if you're on team. This was

1096
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 1: bad strategy from the beginning expressing any kind of doubt. Well,

1097
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:41,240
Speaker 1: maybe that's right, but I don't know what else people

1098
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 1: are supposed to do if you don't if you really

1099
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:47,280
Speaker 1: think that this is he has not demonstrated, Like it's

1100
01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:53,800
Speaker 1: seriously concerning incapacity for the work. Think about how unprecedented

1101
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:56,920
Speaker 1: having this degree of open challenging of him as the

1102
01:05:56,960 --> 01:05:59,520
Speaker 1: candidate this close to an elections. I've never seen anything like.

1103
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 6: That, especially especially on like an incumbent, yes, the president, yeah,

1104
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:08,840
Speaker 6: and an incumbent who's served two times as vice Like

1105
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:15,080
Speaker 6: that's ridiculous. And like the last real neurological medical examination

1106
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:18,600
Speaker 6: that he undertook was last February, which for an eighty

1107
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,240
Speaker 6: one year old is a very long time, especially if

1108
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:23,560
Speaker 6: you can bear like news clips of him from like

1109
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:26,680
Speaker 6: the debate, two clips of him from last February or

1110
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 6: last year. There actually is like a decent difference, And

1111
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:32,400
Speaker 6: I don't know, it seems it seems kind of absurd

1112
01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:35,840
Speaker 6: that he that he keeps harping on this line. For

1113
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 6: his ABC interview, he declined to take a cognitive test

1114
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:41,080
Speaker 6: and make the results public in order to reassure voters

1115
01:06:41,120 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 6: that he was fit to serve another term, saying that

1116
01:06:43,480 --> 01:06:46,760
Speaker 6: I have a cognitive test every single day doing this job.

1117
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 6: Everything I do is a test.

1118
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:51,720
Speaker 4: No, not great. No.

1119
01:06:52,480 --> 01:06:55,920
Speaker 6: He also said that only the Lord Almighty could persuade

1120
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:58,440
Speaker 6: him to change his mind and drop out of the race.

1121
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:01,240
Speaker 1: What the fuck? What the fuck is show?

1122
01:07:01,560 --> 01:07:02,120
Speaker 5: There we go?

1123
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:10,240
Speaker 6: Seriously, man, So that's again not super reassuring. But do

1124
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:12,640
Speaker 6: you know what I can be reassured by Robert.

1125
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:16,200
Speaker 1: The fact that sweet lady capitalism is always there for us.

1126
01:07:16,440 --> 01:07:19,800
Speaker 6: It's always there, like a good uncle or something.

1127
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:22,840
Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, yeah, yeah, something something that state

1128
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:23,440
Speaker 1: farm mad.

1129
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:37,080
Speaker 6: I agree, all right, we are back. It is certainly

1130
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:40,720
Speaker 6: feeling like nineteen sixty eight all over again, isn't it?

1131
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:46,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, uh yeah, I mean, and that's obviously having an

1132
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:49,919
Speaker 1: open convention in sixty eight. The chaos around that did

1133
01:07:49,920 --> 01:07:53,000
Speaker 1: not help the Democrats. They did not know in that election. No,

1134
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:57,240
Speaker 1: we got fucking Dick Nixon. So that's not good.

1135
01:07:57,480 --> 01:08:01,400
Speaker 6: No, it's not granted with with campus protests and everything,

1136
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:03,560
Speaker 6: it all is starting to feel like sixty eight over here.

1137
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:06,720
Speaker 6: So yeah, a lot of people are saying, if Biden

1138
01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:08,960
Speaker 6: does step down before the DNC in Chicago this August,

1139
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:11,600
Speaker 6: we could have ourselves an open convention to nominate a

1140
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 6: new candidate. The last time this method was used by

1141
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:17,639
Speaker 6: Democrats was in sixty eight at the also Chicago DNC,

1142
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:22,480
Speaker 6: after the leading candidate, Senendate Robert F. Kennedy, was assassinated

1143
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:24,880
Speaker 6: weeks before the convention by twenty four year old Palestinian

1144
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:27,639
Speaker 6: man for his support of Israel during the Six Day War.

1145
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:31,280
Speaker 6: So again, there is a lot of parallels here. And

1146
01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:33,439
Speaker 6: if it's not going to be Biden, then who is

1147
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:35,759
Speaker 6: it going to be? Right, This was a bigger question

1148
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:37,960
Speaker 6: last week and it still is kind of a lingering

1149
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:40,920
Speaker 6: question in a lot of people's minds. Who's it going

1150
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:44,720
Speaker 6: to be? Probably Kamala I don't know, Yeah, I.

1151
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:47,240
Speaker 1: Mean, there's really for a lot of reasons in terms

1152
01:08:47,240 --> 01:08:49,439
Speaker 1: of including like I think, what would have to happen

1153
01:08:49,479 --> 01:08:51,439
Speaker 1: with like the donations, like if it would to be

1154
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:56,559
Speaker 1: a totally new group of people, that would cause insurmountable bullshit.

1155
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:59,960
Speaker 1: And also like if you're talking about from a war

1156
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:04,960
Speaker 1: gaming this out perspective, you know, Kamala does not look

1157
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:08,080
Speaker 1: bad in the polling and might might in fact be

1158
01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:11,679
Speaker 1: just for a variety of reasons, one of the better choices,

1159
01:09:11,720 --> 01:09:14,559
Speaker 1: Like I can in my head think, wow, I sure

1160
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:16,840
Speaker 1: wish it was you know, Pritzker and Whitmer maybe, but

1161
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:20,320
Speaker 1: like I think that a lot of what I've seen

1162
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:22,160
Speaker 1: in the polls has kind of convinced me that Kamal

1163
01:09:22,320 --> 01:09:26,200
Speaker 1: is probably our best all around bet and if you

1164
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:29,120
Speaker 1: include practicality and actually like beating Trump.

1165
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:32,120
Speaker 6: Yes, in the polls, she is consistently higher than any

1166
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:36,000
Speaker 6: other potential Democratic replacements and doing, if not as well,

1167
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:41,360
Speaker 6: often better than Biden against Trump, usually closing that race out.

1168
01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:41,599
Speaker 1: I think.

1169
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:44,439
Speaker 6: A CNN poll from last Wednesday showed that she's in

1170
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:47,519
Speaker 6: the margin of error against Trump nationally with forty five

1171
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:51,200
Speaker 6: to his forty seven, which is much better than Biden

1172
01:09:51,280 --> 01:09:53,439
Speaker 6: is doing nationally. And she's projected to do much better

1173
01:09:53,680 --> 01:09:56,880
Speaker 6: in an electoral college race than Biden specifically.

1174
01:09:57,320 --> 01:09:58,400
Speaker 5: So there we go.

1175
01:09:58,479 --> 01:10:01,679
Speaker 6: I'm gonna quote from CNN here quote An anonymously written

1176
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:05,120
Speaker 6: Google doc titled Unburdened by What has been the Case

1177
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:09,200
Speaker 6: for Kamala, written by self described senior operatives within democratic

1178
01:10:09,200 --> 01:10:12,560
Speaker 6: political institutions, has been popping up in group chats of

1179
01:10:12,600 --> 01:10:15,840
Speaker 6: Democratic donors and leading coalition groups. It lays out a

1180
01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 6: detailed argument and plan for a campaign. So this doc

1181
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:23,759
Speaker 6: I was able to get a hold of a copy,

1182
01:10:23,960 --> 01:10:27,640
Speaker 6: and parts of it definitely read like an aaronsor counscript

1183
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:30,800
Speaker 6: like that is that is the closest thing I can

1184
01:10:31,120 --> 01:10:33,760
Speaker 6: I can describe this thing as But I think it

1185
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:36,120
Speaker 6: is worth digging into here for our last section. So

1186
01:10:36,120 --> 01:10:38,920
Speaker 6: I'm gonna I'm gonna read some small parts of this

1187
01:10:39,080 --> 01:10:42,280
Speaker 6: doc and Robert, I'm curious to hear what your thoughts

1188
01:10:42,280 --> 01:10:45,879
Speaker 6: are on this. It starts by saying, we are currently losing.

1189
01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:49,120
Speaker 6: We need to do something different to win. The number

1190
01:10:49,160 --> 01:10:52,639
Speaker 6: one most important priority above all others is defeating Donald Trump.

1191
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:55,320
Speaker 6: Nothing is more important, and we need to be very

1192
01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:58,840
Speaker 6: real that we are currently losing. So off to a

1193
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:04,519
Speaker 6: good start, that is I would I would argue accurate quote.

1194
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:07,880
Speaker 6: Biden's debate performance, the campaign's defensive response, and the total

1195
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:10,000
Speaker 6: lack of plan to reassure his base and the voters

1196
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:13,600
Speaker 6: about his about his capability should shake everyone's confidence that

1197
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 6: he can win this election. Now we have three possible options.

1198
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:19,320
Speaker 6: Biden can take the necessary step to demonstrate that he

1199
01:11:19,360 --> 01:11:21,120
Speaker 6: is up to the job, he can step aside for

1200
01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:25,200
Speaker 6: another candidate, or Trump will win. The discourse around potential

1201
01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:27,960
Speaker 6: alternative candidates in the event that Biden does step down

1202
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:32,320
Speaker 6: is increasingly detached from reality. Donors, pundits, and democratic elites

1203
01:11:32,360 --> 01:11:35,920
Speaker 6: are freely slinging around wild ideas about dream tickets. This

1204
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:38,599
Speaker 6: chaos is used as a shield by stay the Course

1205
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:42,920
Speaker 6: advocates who frame the choice as Biden or chaos. The

1206
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:45,560
Speaker 6: swirl over different possible candidates is obscuring the fact that

1207
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:48,320
Speaker 6: there's a single clear path forward. There's one path out

1208
01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:51,640
Speaker 6: of this mess, and it's Kamala unquote. And this is

1209
01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:54,400
Speaker 6: one of the interesting things I found about this doc

1210
01:11:54,479 --> 01:11:56,400
Speaker 6: is that the way that they view this kind of

1211
01:11:56,439 --> 01:11:59,360
Speaker 6: current chaos as we win just as a deliberate strategy

1212
01:11:59,360 --> 01:12:02,040
Speaker 6: and as an as a deliberate tactics just to continue

1213
01:12:02,400 --> 01:12:05,840
Speaker 6: this uncertainty all the way to the convention, and a

1214
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:07,960
Speaker 6: lot of the what this dock advocates for is that

1215
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:11,320
Speaker 6: we need to call this as soon as possible to

1216
01:12:11,479 --> 01:12:14,840
Speaker 6: give whatever option we're going to go forward with the

1217
01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:18,439
Speaker 6: most amount of success, whether that's Biden, whether that's Kamala,

1218
01:12:19,280 --> 01:12:21,080
Speaker 6: it needs to we need to decide what it is

1219
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:23,240
Speaker 6: so we don't spend the next few months doing weird

1220
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:26,880
Speaker 6: like democratic party infighting and instead actually like lock down

1221
01:12:27,160 --> 01:12:30,519
Speaker 6: what's happening, so there's a cohesive strategy. And they argue

1222
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:34,120
Speaker 6: that Kamala has the strongest claim to democratic legibility among

1223
01:12:34,240 --> 01:12:37,640
Speaker 6: all other alternative candidates. Quote, she's the only candidate that

1224
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:39,679
Speaker 6: can take the reins right now instead of in late

1225
01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:41,880
Speaker 6: August with less than three months ago. To be clear,

1226
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:44,479
Speaker 6: this isn't an argument about deservedness or why should personally

1227
01:12:44,479 --> 01:12:46,960
Speaker 6: love Kamala. It's about strategy and winning in the face

1228
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:48,920
Speaker 6: of unimaginable electoral stakes.

1229
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:50,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1230
01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:53,120
Speaker 6: Now, the doctors point out that only Biden himself has

1231
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:57,040
Speaker 6: the power to drop out and choose to head off

1232
01:12:57,160 --> 01:13:00,960
Speaker 6: chaos by anointing Harris. But Biden does listen to people,

1233
01:13:01,040 --> 01:13:03,799
Speaker 6: and the people that he listens to listens to other people,

1234
01:13:04,200 --> 01:13:06,719
Speaker 6: and that is the audience for the people reading this doc.

1235
01:13:06,760 --> 01:13:09,920
Speaker 6: That's what this is circulating among. That was like the intention,

1236
01:13:10,600 --> 01:13:12,759
Speaker 6: and they argue that if Biden does drop out, Democrats

1237
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:16,400
Speaker 6: have to unite quickly behind the elected successor, as opposed

1238
01:13:16,400 --> 01:13:21,160
Speaker 6: to inviting this extended period of chaos. And although Kamala

1239
01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:25,240
Speaker 6: has limitations in polls regarding her name recognition, she currently

1240
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 6: wins any poll of alternative Democratic candidates by a very

1241
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:32,320
Speaker 6: wide margin. This doc dos pointed out that Kamala is

1242
01:13:32,320 --> 01:13:35,280
Speaker 6: by no means a perfect candidate. She does have real deficits,

1243
01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:39,439
Speaker 6: but they are mostly addressable. The doc mentions her Biden

1244
01:13:39,520 --> 01:13:42,920
Speaker 6: level approval, rating her involvement with Biden's immigration shortcomings, and

1245
01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:46,559
Speaker 6: her kind of awkward camera moments reminiscent of a drunk

1246
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:50,080
Speaker 6: aunt and quote. After years of a relatively low profile,

1247
01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:52,599
Speaker 6: voters don't see her as a strong leader for the country,

1248
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,040
Speaker 6: but running as a presidential candidate will allow Harris to

1249
01:13:55,040 --> 01:13:57,519
Speaker 6: present herself in a more commanding light. She'll be a

1250
01:13:57,520 --> 01:14:00,799
Speaker 6: prosecutor going up against a convicted felon, a woman fighting

1251
01:14:00,840 --> 01:14:04,479
Speaker 6: against the man who ended Roe v. Wade unquote, and

1252
01:14:04,520 --> 01:14:06,360
Speaker 6: that is a lot of the tight sort of messaging

1253
01:14:06,439 --> 01:14:10,240
Speaker 6: that they are promoting if Kamala does end up being

1254
01:14:10,280 --> 01:14:13,400
Speaker 6: the option. A Morning consoled political poll on the vice

1255
01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:16,679
Speaker 6: president from June reflects a number of advantages she would

1256
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:18,719
Speaker 6: have over Trump in a head to head match based

1257
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:21,960
Speaker 6: on his greatest vulnerabilities. A majority of voters ci Kamala

1258
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:25,320
Speaker 6: is mentally fit, level headed, and prepared contrast to Trump

1259
01:14:25,320 --> 01:14:28,200
Speaker 6: and even Biden, and a majority of voters trust Kamala

1260
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:32,920
Speaker 6: on jobs, abortion, climate change, and LGBTQ rights. Public opinion

1261
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:35,800
Speaker 6: is already moving towards Harris over Biden. Forty three percent

1262
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:38,400
Speaker 6: of voters indicate Harris is fit to run, compared to

1263
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:41,840
Speaker 6: Biden's thirty five and while the issue is complex and

1264
01:14:41,880 --> 01:14:44,640
Speaker 6: the distance here is relative, she's broadly considered to be

1265
01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:47,600
Speaker 6: on Biden's left on Israel Palestine, an issue where he

1266
01:14:47,640 --> 01:14:51,360
Speaker 6: has major vulnerabilities. Kamala also has advantages with the younger

1267
01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:54,840
Speaker 6: and POC voters that the Democrats are currently bleeding in

1268
01:14:54,880 --> 01:14:57,479
Speaker 6: the dock. Here they contain some stats on this, saying

1269
01:14:57,560 --> 01:15:00,000
Speaker 6: Biden won the twenty twenty election by just forty four

1270
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:03,000
Speaker 6: one thousand votes, and most of those are votes that

1271
01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:06,280
Speaker 6: he is bleeding. A New York Times cenpol in February

1272
01:15:06,280 --> 01:15:08,559
Speaker 6: found that Harris is nearly ten points ahead of Biden

1273
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:11,479
Speaker 6: with black voters, and fifteen points up with Latino voters,

1274
01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:15,440
Speaker 6: twenty points up with young voters. These are massive advantages.

1275
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:19,520
Speaker 6: Now that is older data, but it's probably worth some consideration.

1276
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:22,840
Speaker 6: Part of the reason why she's also favored among other

1277
01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:26,280
Speaker 6: Democratic contenders is that she has direct access to the

1278
01:15:26,320 --> 01:15:29,599
Speaker 6: Biden Harris campaign war chest of over ninety one million

1279
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:32,479
Speaker 6: dollars in cash, which would create a smoother transition.

1280
01:15:33,360 --> 01:15:36,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, and is probably I mean again, just given the

1281
01:15:37,040 --> 01:15:39,839
Speaker 1: amount of chaos that would be inherent in a totally

1282
01:15:39,920 --> 01:15:43,000
Speaker 1: open convention, it just seems like the only feasible option.

1283
01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:48,200
Speaker 6: And what they're advocating for is that if Kamla takes

1284
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:51,320
Speaker 6: a position now or soon to now, she'll have an

1285
01:15:51,320 --> 01:15:55,400
Speaker 6: extra month and massive structural advantages. Quote, if we can

1286
01:15:55,479 --> 01:15:57,679
Speaker 6: unite behind Harris in July, we have an extra month

1287
01:15:57,680 --> 01:15:59,840
Speaker 6: of party unity and message unity. That's a month where

1288
01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:01,559
Speaker 6: we can and keep the media focused on Donald Trump,

1289
01:16:01,640 --> 01:16:05,559
Speaker 6: Project twenty twenty five and mega extremism instead of waiting

1290
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:08,360
Speaker 6: in dread for the next Biden misstep or talking about

1291
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:12,400
Speaker 6: democrats fighting it out to win delicate count fear of

1292
01:16:12,479 --> 01:16:15,519
Speaker 6: racism and sexism is playing an outsized role not supported

1293
01:16:15,560 --> 01:16:18,000
Speaker 6: by data. The impact of sexism and racism on the

1294
01:16:18,080 --> 01:16:20,879
Speaker 6: vote is marginal compared to the potential to make gains

1295
01:16:21,000 --> 01:16:23,120
Speaker 6: in the crucial block that will decide the election.

1296
01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:23,840
Speaker 5: Right now.

1297
01:16:23,880 --> 01:16:28,000
Speaker 6: This race hinges on alienated and unenthusiastic double haters who

1298
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:31,439
Speaker 6: dislike both Biden and Trump and want an alternative choice.

1299
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:33,559
Speaker 6: Some polls put the size of this group at twenty

1300
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:37,520
Speaker 6: five percent nationally, or even higher nearly thirty percent amongst.

1301
01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:39,920
Speaker 1: Basically for every one I know well.

1302
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:43,000
Speaker 6: Especially among inconsistent voters who are who are likely to

1303
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:46,519
Speaker 6: decide the election in key battleground states. For these double haters,

1304
01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:50,200
Speaker 6: vote choices being driven not by prejudice but by anti

1305
01:16:50,360 --> 01:16:53,400
Speaker 6: enthusiasm for the two currently eighty year old white men

1306
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:55,240
Speaker 6: presented here as the only options.

1307
01:16:55,640 --> 01:16:56,679
Speaker 4: Yeahs more likely.

1308
01:16:57,160 --> 01:16:59,599
Speaker 6: These voters are also more likely to be young, Hispanic,

1309
01:16:59,720 --> 01:17:03,600
Speaker 6: black back and women in urban or suburban areas, the

1310
01:17:03,640 --> 01:17:06,720
Speaker 6: exact kind of voter profile that Kamala is gaining appeal with.

1311
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:08,479
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I find.

1312
01:17:08,280 --> 01:17:10,760
Speaker 6: This little bit to be the most compelling statement in

1313
01:17:10,800 --> 01:17:14,519
Speaker 6: this entire document. Because that lays out an actual map

1314
01:17:14,600 --> 01:17:18,839
Speaker 6: towards how Kamala would have a better election viability than Biden,

1315
01:17:19,120 --> 01:17:21,360
Speaker 6: especially in the voters that he's been bleeding dramatically in

1316
01:17:21,400 --> 01:17:22,920
Speaker 6: the past six seven months.

1317
01:17:23,160 --> 01:17:23,439
Speaker 5: Now.

1318
01:17:23,680 --> 01:17:27,519
Speaker 6: The doc does close by saying, if Biden stays the course,

1319
01:17:27,760 --> 01:17:30,400
Speaker 6: we need Kamala to be strong. The most likely outcome

1320
01:17:30,439 --> 01:17:33,360
Speaker 6: is that President Biden declines to step back. In that case,

1321
01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:36,160
Speaker 6: Kamala's role is more crucial than ever. She will be

1322
01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:38,960
Speaker 6: the strong communicator on the ticket, especially on our most

1323
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:42,559
Speaker 6: important issue abortion. Second, many voters will understand her to

1324
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:46,160
Speaker 6: be Biden's near guaranteed successor, and we will need to

1325
01:17:46,200 --> 01:17:49,200
Speaker 6: feel comfortable with her potential assent to the presidency to

1326
01:17:49,280 --> 01:17:52,680
Speaker 6: vote for the Biden Harris ticket. For anyone in the

1327
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:55,960
Speaker 6: Biden's nominee, we must rally around him camp. It's essential

1328
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:58,360
Speaker 6: that we project confidence in his selection of a running

1329
01:17:58,360 --> 01:18:01,879
Speaker 6: mate by one pushing the administration to stop sideline and Kamala.

1330
01:18:02,280 --> 01:18:05,120
Speaker 6: By two promoting Kamala as the leader of the party

1331
01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:08,840
Speaker 6: and country. Three be prepared to align with political and

1332
01:18:08,840 --> 01:18:12,200
Speaker 6: financial support, and three debate over and ultimately organize around

1333
01:18:12,280 --> 01:18:15,840
Speaker 6: a new running mate. Consolidation around Vice President Harris will

1334
01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:18,200
Speaker 6: not guarantee victory in November. No option is free of

1335
01:18:18,240 --> 01:18:20,439
Speaker 6: risk at this point. But this is our clearest path

1336
01:18:20,479 --> 01:18:22,439
Speaker 6: to win. We should take it. And that's how the

1337
01:18:22,479 --> 01:18:26,120
Speaker 6: document ends. And I like some of the arguments they

1338
01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:28,400
Speaker 6: make here. I don't like Kamala as a person. I

1339
01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 6: think she is many many issues both the person and

1340
01:18:31,479 --> 01:18:35,400
Speaker 6: I don't like cops, but absolutely, especially if their messaging

1341
01:18:35,479 --> 01:18:38,839
Speaker 6: will be like Kamala the prosecutor against Trump the felon,

1342
01:18:39,120 --> 01:18:40,519
Speaker 6: which I personally don't like.

1343
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:41,679
Speaker 1: But that could work.

1344
01:18:41,960 --> 01:18:44,479
Speaker 6: That's not going to lose her important voters. That's not

1345
01:18:44,479 --> 01:18:46,559
Speaker 6: going to lose her all of the anarchists who already

1346
01:18:46,560 --> 01:18:47,479
Speaker 6: aren't going to vote.

1347
01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:52,320
Speaker 1: That might be a really good strategy because Americans do

1348
01:18:52,360 --> 01:18:54,960
Speaker 1: not feel the same way about prosecutors as I do,

1349
01:18:55,120 --> 01:18:57,040
Speaker 1: and these you who do right like we have to

1350
01:18:57,080 --> 01:19:00,200
Speaker 1: accept that at a certain point. I think so I

1351
01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:03,240
Speaker 1: I and I think that's most frustrated to me about

1352
01:19:03,280 --> 01:19:05,640
Speaker 1: the fact that it doesn't look like Biden's going to

1353
01:19:05,720 --> 01:19:09,880
Speaker 1: step down, is that like the smartest thing they could

1354
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:12,840
Speaker 1: do strategy wise would be to drop that announcement on

1355
01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:15,840
Speaker 1: like Monday of next week and utterly like cut the

1356
01:19:15,880 --> 01:19:18,880
Speaker 1: wind out of the sales of the rnc ye, Like

1357
01:19:19,080 --> 01:19:23,120
Speaker 1: suddenly the biggest story is that and not you know,

1358
01:19:23,200 --> 01:19:25,360
Speaker 1: everything that the Republicans are putting out, like you could

1359
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:28,200
Speaker 1: actually really do some damage to them, because there's there's

1360
01:19:28,200 --> 01:19:31,680
Speaker 1: not really anything that they could do in response.

1361
01:19:32,680 --> 01:19:35,919
Speaker 6: And so much media attention right now is being focused

1362
01:19:35,920 --> 01:19:39,800
Speaker 6: on Biden very clearly not being fit for office, and

1363
01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:42,439
Speaker 6: all of that would go away if Kamala gets put

1364
01:19:42,479 --> 01:19:45,160
Speaker 6: into the spot, then then then everyone will start focusing

1365
01:19:45,200 --> 01:19:48,120
Speaker 6: once again on how bad Trump is. And I can

1366
01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:52,160
Speaker 6: understand some of like the Biden camps like upsetedness at

1367
01:19:52,320 --> 01:19:53,920
Speaker 6: at like the fact that currently there is just so

1368
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:56,559
Speaker 6: much attention on Biden and everyone kind of is ignoring Trump,

1369
01:19:56,800 --> 01:19:59,280
Speaker 6: but that just is due to how poorly he himself

1370
01:19:59,320 --> 01:20:02,360
Speaker 6: has been behaving like that, Like that is ultimately the

1371
01:20:02,360 --> 01:20:05,640
Speaker 6: Biden campaign's fault that they didn't plan for this contingency,

1372
01:20:05,920 --> 01:20:08,799
Speaker 6: And if they want all of that like discourse to stop,

1373
01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:11,360
Speaker 6: they have a very easy option to And it's just

1374
01:20:11,400 --> 01:20:15,480
Speaker 6: reliant on Biden not being too personally prideful and acknowledging

1375
01:20:15,520 --> 01:20:17,760
Speaker 6: that he's just too old for office and there are

1376
01:20:17,760 --> 01:20:20,519
Speaker 6: better candidates out there. So yeah, that is that is

1377
01:20:20,560 --> 01:20:23,479
Speaker 6: the current, that is the current situation on the rise

1378
01:20:23,520 --> 01:20:26,800
Speaker 6: of the k Hive, something I at this point am

1379
01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:30,400
Speaker 6: very skeptical to think will actually happen. But it may

1380
01:20:30,439 --> 01:20:33,040
Speaker 6: be actually a viable strategy for the Democratic Party.

1381
01:20:34,080 --> 01:20:38,000
Speaker 1: Yep. I mean, we'll see what they actually do. Probably

1382
01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:43,479
Speaker 1: keep running Joe Biden and hope that Americans panic enough

1383
01:20:43,520 --> 01:20:47,000
Speaker 1: about Trump to but you know, we can all dream.

1384
01:20:47,200 --> 01:20:50,479
Speaker 6: Now, I'd agree to that point. We could also dream

1385
01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:52,640
Speaker 6: that like that, that like the delegates will just like

1386
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:58,320
Speaker 6: rebel against their like polite duty. Yeah, by by not

1387
01:20:58,320 --> 01:21:01,680
Speaker 6: committing to their to their no'm binding promises. Although that

1388
01:21:01,720 --> 01:21:05,000
Speaker 6: would be extremely unprecedented and it would make the DNC

1389
01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:05,880
Speaker 6: a lot more fun.

1390
01:21:06,160 --> 01:21:08,639
Speaker 1: Oh, we would have a great DNC if that were

1391
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:10,080
Speaker 1: to go down. Yep.

1392
01:21:10,479 --> 01:21:13,040
Speaker 6: Anyway, well, we're gonna have fun at the RNC instead.

1393
01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:16,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, we sure will. Garrison, You and I are going

1394
01:21:16,080 --> 01:21:20,200
Speaker 1: to be on the ground in the exclusion zone and

1395
01:21:20,280 --> 01:21:25,040
Speaker 1: at the convention itself where we cannot have backpacks or gas.

1396
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:27,680
Speaker 6: Masks or canned food.

1397
01:21:27,720 --> 01:21:29,880
Speaker 1: But I might be able to carry a gun. Let

1398
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:34,160
Speaker 1: me see if they do reciprocity. What is this is Minnesota?

1399
01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:35,959
Speaker 5: No, this is not Minnesota.

1400
01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:36,800
Speaker 4: This is Wisconsin.

1401
01:21:37,040 --> 01:21:39,799
Speaker 1: Oh, Wisconsin, this.

1402
01:21:39,720 --> 01:21:41,120
Speaker 6: Is Milwaukee, Milwaukee.

1403
01:21:41,160 --> 01:21:45,599
Speaker 1: We're gonna see how well prepared I am. Let me see.

1404
01:21:46,360 --> 01:21:48,960
Speaker 1: That could make a fun episode all its own.

1405
01:21:51,360 --> 01:21:53,479
Speaker 6: I do have an idea for an episode that I

1406
01:21:53,520 --> 01:21:57,840
Speaker 6: will mention to you off air that I really want

1407
01:21:57,840 --> 01:21:58,680
Speaker 6: to do for the rn C.

1408
01:22:00,800 --> 01:22:04,600
Speaker 1: Wait, it looks like yes with restrictions.

1409
01:22:05,960 --> 01:22:07,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, I love I love restrictions.

1410
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:09,320
Speaker 1: That's great, we'll see what those are.

1411
01:22:10,120 --> 01:22:11,719
Speaker 4: Stay tuned to the restriction.

1412
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:30,280
Speaker 7: Stay tuned everybody e sports.

1413
01:22:31,240 --> 01:22:34,000
Speaker 8: Oh god, Okay, that was not a great intro. They

1414
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:37,960
Speaker 8: conpen here. The podcast that we do I be a

1415
01:22:38,040 --> 01:22:41,120
Speaker 8: log with me is James. We're doing it another be

1416
01:22:41,160 --> 01:22:41,960
Speaker 8: a James episode.

1417
01:22:42,320 --> 01:22:45,559
Speaker 4: Yep, we're back. We would have a theme for our episodes.

1418
01:22:45,640 --> 01:22:47,880
Speaker 4: I feel like, yeah, maybe it is Petro dollars.

1419
01:22:48,080 --> 01:22:48,720
Speaker 5: I guess it is.

1420
01:22:49,240 --> 01:22:52,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we vote to you today by Big fossil Fuel.

1421
01:22:52,640 --> 01:22:55,519
Speaker 8: You know, this entire episode is is the what do

1422
01:22:55,560 --> 01:22:58,400
Speaker 8: you do with your fossil fuel muddy episode? So we

1423
01:22:58,439 --> 01:23:02,679
Speaker 8: did an episode like a year ago about sports washing,

1424
01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:06,120
Speaker 8: and it has gotten much worse since then, you know. So,

1425
01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:08,559
Speaker 8: so the big kind of sports washing thing that's happening

1426
01:23:08,640 --> 01:23:11,799
Speaker 8: right now is this thing called the Esports World Cup

1427
01:23:12,320 --> 01:23:15,360
Speaker 8: that the Saudi government is putting on. It is going

1428
01:23:15,400 --> 01:23:18,840
Speaker 8: on right now. Barring unfathomable disaster, it will still be

1429
01:23:18,880 --> 01:23:21,519
Speaker 8: going on by the time this episode comes out. We

1430
01:23:21,800 --> 01:23:23,559
Speaker 8: kind of talked about in the last episode how the

1431
01:23:23,600 --> 01:23:25,880
Speaker 8: Saudis have been getting into sports. I mean it sort

1432
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:28,120
Speaker 8: of starts with soccer, they said, they start to WWE,

1433
01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:31,559
Speaker 8: they get into tennis, they're in golf, they're in boxing,

1434
01:23:31,560 --> 01:23:33,519
Speaker 8: they're in Formula one, and in the last like two

1435
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:38,519
Speaker 8: years specifically, they've gotten really really deep into esports. In

1436
01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:42,320
Speaker 8: twenty twenty two, they spent one point five billion dollars

1437
01:23:42,680 --> 01:23:46,200
Speaker 8: wow to acquire face It in EESL Gaming, which were

1438
01:23:46,240 --> 01:23:49,840
Speaker 8: two organizations that ran esports leagues. Esports, by the way,

1439
01:23:49,880 --> 01:23:54,760
Speaker 8: are professional video game competition. Yeah, the people who didn't

1440
01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:56,400
Speaker 8: spend their youth waking up at five in the morning

1441
01:23:56,400 --> 01:23:58,400
Speaker 8: to watch Korean StarCraft tournaments like I did.

1442
01:23:58,840 --> 01:24:00,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's me, I thought to that category.

1443
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:01,200
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1444
01:24:01,360 --> 01:24:03,320
Speaker 8: I feel like on this episode we have both the

1445
01:24:03,360 --> 01:24:06,479
Speaker 8: sports washing angles covered, because you have the sports washing

1446
01:24:07,080 --> 01:24:09,839
Speaker 8: like regular sports angle, and I've had.

1447
01:24:09,680 --> 01:24:12,000
Speaker 5: To do the sportswa washing e sports angle.

1448
01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:14,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know what you call them. P sports

1449
01:24:14,520 --> 01:24:20,120
Speaker 4: like physical sports, meat space sports. Yeah, I've been privy

1450
01:24:20,120 --> 01:24:23,120
Speaker 4: to a decent amount of sports washing. Like I raced

1451
01:24:23,120 --> 01:24:26,439
Speaker 4: a lot against Iranian teams when I was cycling those

1452
01:24:26,479 --> 01:24:28,639
Speaker 4: dudes one. So much sports washing has just straight up

1453
01:24:28,680 --> 01:24:37,439
Speaker 4: like national state sponsored doping programs. But then the UAE, Bahrain, Dubai,

1454
01:24:37,960 --> 01:24:42,679
Speaker 4: all these different Petro states and emirates will sponsor cycling teams,

1455
01:24:42,760 --> 01:24:45,720
Speaker 4: very very common. Ry, Brunei another one. Yeah, I raced

1456
01:24:45,760 --> 01:24:47,960
Speaker 4: for Quebec once, which is not not a Petro state.

1457
01:24:49,200 --> 01:24:50,679
Speaker 5: Well it's not I guess it's not a petro state.

1458
01:24:50,880 --> 01:24:54,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, they got big maple syrup behind them. Yeah,

1459
01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:56,800
Speaker 4: in Catalonia, which again not a Petro state. But yeah,

1460
01:24:56,960 --> 01:25:00,599
Speaker 4: it's very common in all kinds of professionals sports. Right,

1461
01:25:01,400 --> 01:25:05,160
Speaker 4: because as sports has become more like an entertainment industry,

1462
01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:08,559
Speaker 4: it's become unfathomably expensive to own a sponsor a team

1463
01:25:08,640 --> 01:25:15,080
Speaker 4: for like enthusiasts, and the value proposition isn't really there

1464
01:25:15,240 --> 01:25:18,360
Speaker 4: for brand I don't think the amount that it costs

1465
01:25:18,520 --> 01:25:21,600
Speaker 4: now to even a sport like cycling, which is not

1466
01:25:21,720 --> 01:25:25,040
Speaker 4: a massive sporting global terms, right, it's not football soccer

1467
01:25:25,320 --> 01:25:28,080
Speaker 4: for the Americans out there, it's not worth it for

1468
01:25:28,160 --> 01:25:31,080
Speaker 4: many brands to sponsoring entire cycling team millions and millions

1469
01:25:31,120 --> 01:25:34,240
Speaker 4: of euros. But like, if you can use that cycling

1470
01:25:34,280 --> 01:25:38,600
Speaker 4: team to launder and normalize your state's reputation, if that

1471
01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:41,280
Speaker 4: cycling team can be what people think of when they

1472
01:25:41,320 --> 01:25:44,680
Speaker 4: hear about your country, then maybe that is worth it, right,

1473
01:25:44,840 --> 01:25:47,000
Speaker 4: And when you have a bottomless pot of oil money,

1474
01:25:47,040 --> 01:25:48,439
Speaker 4: you don't have to worry so much about whether it's

1475
01:25:48,439 --> 01:25:48,800
Speaker 4: worth it.

1476
01:25:49,080 --> 01:25:50,600
Speaker 8: Yeah, So the thing I want to do with this

1477
01:25:50,680 --> 01:25:54,000
Speaker 8: episode is to get into why specifically the Salus are

1478
01:25:54,040 --> 01:25:56,640
Speaker 8: doing this right now, because again, like most countries do

1479
01:25:57,600 --> 01:25:59,519
Speaker 8: sort of versions of this, right, but again, you know,

1480
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:02,800
Speaker 8: that is one point two billion dollars they've thrown into

1481
01:26:02,920 --> 01:26:05,479
Speaker 8: two StarCraft leagues that I primarily known them for StarCraft.

1482
01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:07,400
Speaker 8: They do a bunch of stuff, but those things were

1483
01:26:07,400 --> 01:26:10,479
Speaker 8: not worth one point five billion dollars, Like, there's no way.

1484
01:26:10,560 --> 01:26:12,240
Speaker 8: But most of the money that had been sponsoring this

1485
01:26:12,240 --> 01:26:15,120
Speaker 8: stuff was crypto money, right, Okay, you know, but I

1486
01:26:15,120 --> 01:26:17,759
Speaker 8: wanted to get into why this is sort of happening.

1487
01:26:17,880 --> 01:26:20,639
Speaker 8: Something I think is very important to note going into

1488
01:26:20,680 --> 01:26:23,080
Speaker 8: this is that the sort of league thing that's being

1489
01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:25,840
Speaker 8: run right now is being run directly out of the

1490
01:26:25,880 --> 01:26:28,320
Speaker 8: Saudi Sovereign Wealth Fund, which is called Public Investment Fund,

1491
01:26:28,400 --> 01:26:32,800
Speaker 8: So this is directly state money. So the Esports World

1492
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:36,280
Speaker 8: Cup that's happening right now has sixty million dollars in prizes,

1493
01:26:36,360 --> 01:26:41,479
Speaker 8: which is unreal is an extraordinary amount of money split

1494
01:26:41,520 --> 01:26:44,479
Speaker 8: around twenty one esports. There are thirty sports teams involved,

1495
01:26:44,479 --> 01:26:45,920
Speaker 8: and I am going to read the names of every

1496
01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:47,560
Speaker 8: single fucking one of them, because fuck you.

1497
01:26:48,160 --> 01:26:49,080
Speaker 4: Okay, let's do it.

1498
01:26:49,200 --> 01:26:53,240
Speaker 8: Fanatic, G two Sports Guildy, Sports, car Mine Corp, Movie

1499
01:26:53,240 --> 01:26:54,040
Speaker 8: Star KOI.

1500
01:26:54,080 --> 01:26:56,320
Speaker 4: Actually I've never heard of those ones, uh og not

1501
01:26:56,560 --> 01:27:01,479
Speaker 4: as muviy stides. I'm guessing it's Spanish Spanish telephone network.

1502
01:27:01,960 --> 01:27:04,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, probably, you know, there's a couple I don't know.

1503
01:27:04,160 --> 01:27:05,880
Speaker 5: But like, these are like the largest esports teams in

1504
01:27:05,920 --> 01:27:06,280
Speaker 5: the world.

1505
01:27:06,560 --> 01:27:10,439
Speaker 8: Okay, Nija's and Pajamas or NIP Team Liquor, which I'm

1506
01:27:10,479 --> 01:27:12,160
Speaker 8: really sad about because I was a Team Liquid fan

1507
01:27:12,200 --> 01:27:15,400
Speaker 8: for a fucking decade and I'm no longer one now

1508
01:27:15,880 --> 01:27:19,320
Speaker 8: because fuck this shit. Team Secret Team, Vitality, tuns of Esports,

1509
01:27:19,400 --> 01:27:23,120
Speaker 8: Vertus Pro one hundred Thieves, Cloud nine, Phase Clan Game

1510
01:27:23,200 --> 01:27:28,440
Speaker 8: in Gladiators, Energy Esports space Station Gaming, TSM Blacklist, International,

1511
01:27:28,960 --> 01:27:33,799
Speaker 8: LGD Gaming, Jenny Sports, t One Talent Esports, Webo Gaming,

1512
01:27:33,840 --> 01:27:37,200
Speaker 8: for Real Esports, Loud Team, Falcons, Twist and Minds. Fuck

1513
01:27:37,280 --> 01:27:40,519
Speaker 8: all of you for fucking doing this and doing the

1514
01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:44,439
Speaker 8: super pr thing. There's been a backlash, and the backlash

1515
01:27:44,479 --> 01:27:49,520
Speaker 8: is largely focused on you know, Saudi's institutionalized state homophobia

1516
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:51,920
Speaker 8: and you know, I mean the fact that women are

1517
01:27:51,960 --> 01:27:55,200
Speaker 8: not full citizens. Yeah, like miss such Yeah, I mean

1518
01:27:55,240 --> 01:27:56,960
Speaker 8: just are just straight up owned by their husbands, right

1519
01:27:57,000 --> 01:27:59,559
Speaker 8: like that. That's that's how the sort of legal conservativeship works.

1520
01:28:00,120 --> 01:28:03,519
Speaker 4: I'm not very familiar with esports, so I can be

1521
01:28:03,600 --> 01:28:08,360
Speaker 4: there the podcast Grimace. Here are competitions in esports, like

1522
01:28:08,479 --> 01:28:11,759
Speaker 4: gender segregated? Do people all compete together?

1523
01:28:12,120 --> 01:28:16,800
Speaker 8: Basically No, there are like women's leagues, but like if

1524
01:28:16,800 --> 01:28:18,640
Speaker 8: you just if you want to compete, you can just

1525
01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:20,640
Speaker 8: compete assumeing you gift, you don't get forced out by

1526
01:28:20,640 --> 01:28:22,280
Speaker 8: sexist And this is actually a kind of big deal

1527
01:28:22,320 --> 01:28:24,360
Speaker 8: for StarCraft because you talked about this be four, but

1528
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:27,320
Speaker 8: like probably the number two or number three best StarCraft

1529
01:28:27,320 --> 01:28:29,280
Speaker 8: player in the US is Scarlett, who's a trans woman,

1530
01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:32,200
Speaker 8: and I mean she's just in the regular league, right, like.

1531
01:28:32,400 --> 01:28:35,439
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, other turfs mad about it.

1532
01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:37,800
Speaker 8: You know, It's funny inside the StarCraft community, this was

1533
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:40,240
Speaker 8: a huge thing for a long time, and eventually the

1534
01:28:40,320 --> 01:28:42,920
Speaker 8: tides just turned against them because everyone likes her because

1535
01:28:42,920 --> 01:28:45,880
Speaker 8: she's really good and she's also just like a good person,

1536
01:28:46,360 --> 01:28:48,120
Speaker 8: and so they kind of I got a watch over

1537
01:28:48,120 --> 01:28:51,240
Speaker 8: the years as they just kind of got obliterated. Weirdly,

1538
01:28:51,320 --> 01:28:53,640
Speaker 8: the like regular turfs haven't really found out about this,

1539
01:28:54,160 --> 01:28:57,720
Speaker 8: probably because StarCraft is, I don't know, too good of

1540
01:28:57,720 --> 01:28:59,760
Speaker 8: a game for them to be fucking dealing with.

1541
01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:02,760
Speaker 4: Not understanding things has not stopped this.

1542
01:29:02,840 --> 01:29:03,840
Speaker 5: That's true. That's true.

1543
01:29:03,920 --> 01:29:06,519
Speaker 8: It's kind of too obscure by this point. But you know,

1544
01:29:06,600 --> 01:29:08,599
Speaker 8: like there's been a lot of real concern for sort

1545
01:29:08,600 --> 01:29:10,320
Speaker 8: of queer players. There are a lot of these teams,

1546
01:29:10,479 --> 01:29:12,360
Speaker 8: like right as they were announcing they were going to

1547
01:29:12,400 --> 01:29:15,479
Speaker 8: the fucking Esports, well kup, we're doing all of these

1548
01:29:15,680 --> 01:29:17,840
Speaker 8: fucking Pride posts and talking about how they're gonna let

1549
01:29:17,840 --> 01:29:19,840
Speaker 8: their players wear Pride jerseys, and it's like, are you

1550
01:29:19,920 --> 01:29:20,680
Speaker 8: fucking kidding me?

1551
01:29:21,760 --> 01:29:22,000
Speaker 9: Yeah?

1552
01:29:22,080 --> 01:29:23,960
Speaker 4: You know, so are they physically pressed in Saudi Ara

1553
01:29:24,000 --> 01:29:24,519
Speaker 4: able to play?

1554
01:29:24,600 --> 01:29:24,800
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1555
01:29:24,840 --> 01:29:28,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, These these tournaments are happening physically in Riod. Okay, yeah,

1556
01:29:28,840 --> 01:29:30,280
Speaker 8: you know this is this isn't the first one they've had.

1557
01:29:30,320 --> 01:29:33,200
Speaker 8: They've had some other events before this too there, but

1558
01:29:33,320 --> 01:29:36,280
Speaker 8: you know, like yeah and yeah, things are very very bad.

1559
01:29:36,400 --> 01:29:38,400
Speaker 5: There was a well, a story that was.

1560
01:29:38,400 --> 01:29:41,880
Speaker 8: Famous among trans people, but I don't ever think broke containment.

1561
01:29:42,320 --> 01:29:45,240
Speaker 8: Was there's a Saudi trans woman named Eden who was

1562
01:29:45,280 --> 01:29:48,280
Speaker 8: tricked into going back to like see her family, and

1563
01:29:48,360 --> 01:29:50,320
Speaker 8: her family just kidnapped her and locked her up and

1564
01:29:50,400 --> 01:29:51,840
Speaker 8: she killed herself Jesus.

1565
01:29:51,920 --> 01:29:54,320
Speaker 5: And this is not an uncommon thing.

1566
01:29:54,720 --> 01:29:57,320
Speaker 8: It happens to sist women too sometimes when they try

1567
01:29:57,360 --> 01:29:59,280
Speaker 8: to like get out of the country, sure is, they'll

1568
01:29:59,320 --> 01:30:01,360
Speaker 8: be kidnapped and like renditioned back.

1569
01:30:01,800 --> 01:30:04,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, there have been some pretty good reports on that. Yeah,

1570
01:30:04,560 --> 01:30:06,479
Speaker 4: well linked amost something because it's too it'll be too

1571
01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:07,639
Speaker 4: lankly to go and do here.

1572
01:30:07,800 --> 01:30:08,120
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1573
01:30:08,160 --> 01:30:11,240
Speaker 8: But I think I think kind of the weakness of

1574
01:30:11,320 --> 01:30:14,240
Speaker 8: the backlash is that it doesn't it doesn't really quite

1575
01:30:14,320 --> 01:30:18,240
Speaker 8: understand exactly why the Saudis are doing this. You know,

1576
01:30:18,280 --> 01:30:22,479
Speaker 8: they understand that the Saudi government is incredibly repressive and

1577
01:30:22,479 --> 01:30:25,519
Speaker 8: that it's you know, institutionally homophobic, and it's institutionally sexist.

1578
01:30:26,160 --> 01:30:30,240
Speaker 8: It does not understand like just exactly how fucking bad

1579
01:30:30,280 --> 01:30:32,840
Speaker 8: these people are. Like this is like the most feted

1580
01:30:32,920 --> 01:30:34,479
Speaker 8: up state in the entire world.

1581
01:30:34,560 --> 01:30:37,280
Speaker 5: It is like it is. It is the fucking CIA state.

1582
01:30:37,920 --> 01:30:40,519
Speaker 8: And the rest of this episode is going to be

1583
01:30:40,640 --> 01:30:44,240
Speaker 8: us running through the exact sequence of stuff that caused

1584
01:30:44,240 --> 01:30:46,120
Speaker 8: the Saudis to need to do all of this fucking

1585
01:30:46,120 --> 01:30:50,160
Speaker 8: PR bullshit and how the sort of structural economic cycle

1586
01:30:50,240 --> 01:30:54,559
Speaker 8: of funneling petro dollars around has led to genocide and

1587
01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:57,840
Speaker 8: then also the stupid fucking esports tournament for PR.

1588
01:30:58,080 --> 01:30:59,280
Speaker 4: Two things which I'm not to say.

1589
01:30:59,439 --> 01:31:02,240
Speaker 8: But first, do you know who's probably not a large

1590
01:31:02,320 --> 01:31:05,880
Speaker 8: enough company to have sponsored this tournament? Although I can't

1591
01:31:05,920 --> 01:31:08,040
Speaker 8: promise that it's not KitKat or whatever.

1592
01:31:07,840 --> 01:31:10,280
Speaker 4: The fuck, hopefully it's kit Kat. I would like some

1593
01:31:10,360 --> 01:31:12,479
Speaker 4: cake cats, if that is any they're one of the

1594
01:31:12,479 --> 01:31:15,360
Speaker 4: sponsors of this fucking Esports World Cup. You keep your

1595
01:31:15,400 --> 01:31:18,040
Speaker 4: way for a biscuit cake cat, you'll hate cookie. I

1596
01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:20,000
Speaker 4: don't want you to hate Jocobar anymore.

1597
01:31:20,720 --> 01:31:23,120
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's the products and services of this podcast, which

1598
01:31:23,120 --> 01:31:26,880
Speaker 8: hopefully are not supporting a genocide. But good god, we

1599
01:31:26,960 --> 01:31:39,800
Speaker 8: copy show YEP, so we are back and we are

1600
01:31:39,840 --> 01:31:44,040
Speaker 8: going to talk petro dollars. So Saudi wealth takes a

1601
01:31:44,040 --> 01:31:46,960
Speaker 8: form of what are called petro dollars. Petro dollars are

1602
01:31:47,880 --> 01:31:50,640
Speaker 8: in some sense, they're very very simple, right, It's dollars

1603
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:53,760
Speaker 8: that you get from selling oil. This is important for

1604
01:31:53,760 --> 01:31:56,360
Speaker 8: a number of reasons. Though technically speaking you can sort

1605
01:31:56,400 --> 01:31:59,960
Speaker 8: of sell oil in other currencies now, but like most

1606
01:32:00,120 --> 01:32:03,640
Speaker 8: oil in the world is sold specifically in dollars, and

1607
01:32:03,640 --> 01:32:05,400
Speaker 8: so around the world, dollars are one of the things

1608
01:32:05,400 --> 01:32:07,439
Speaker 8: that if you are an economy, you need dollars in

1609
01:32:07,520 --> 01:32:10,600
Speaker 8: order to get oil from people. So huge sinks of

1610
01:32:10,640 --> 01:32:13,240
Speaker 8: American dollars from all across the world, you know, from

1611
01:32:13,280 --> 01:32:14,960
Speaker 8: the US of the US imporce, a lot of oil

1612
01:32:15,840 --> 01:32:18,639
Speaker 8: flow into these sort of oil producing countries.

1613
01:32:18,680 --> 01:32:19,839
Speaker 5: These are called petro dollars.

1614
01:32:20,439 --> 01:32:23,120
Speaker 8: The most obvious manifestation of this in Saudi Arabia is

1615
01:32:23,360 --> 01:32:26,559
Speaker 8: the country's solving Wealth Fund, which has nine hundred billion

1616
01:32:26,640 --> 01:32:31,880
Speaker 8: dollars of assets. Right, this is an unfathomable amount of money.

1617
01:32:32,000 --> 01:32:34,440
Speaker 8: It is so much money that it is a structural

1618
01:32:34,479 --> 01:32:37,519
Speaker 8: problem for the global economy trying to figure out what

1619
01:32:37,560 --> 01:32:40,360
Speaker 8: the fuck you do with this money. This is a

1620
01:32:40,360 --> 01:32:43,240
Speaker 8: problem that has caused disaster around the world. Is something

1621
01:32:43,240 --> 01:32:44,880
Speaker 8: where I'm fond of talking about on this show, but

1622
01:32:44,920 --> 01:32:47,040
Speaker 8: we're going to talk about again because it's important here.

1623
01:32:47,200 --> 01:32:50,280
Speaker 8: In the seventies and eighties, as sort of Opek realized

1624
01:32:50,320 --> 01:32:51,920
Speaker 8: that it could, you know, use its sort of political

1625
01:32:51,960 --> 01:32:55,360
Speaker 8: power to gain enormous amounts of wealth and power and

1626
01:32:55,400 --> 01:32:58,120
Speaker 8: gain enormous amounts of petro dollars by controlling the price

1627
01:32:58,120 --> 01:33:00,760
Speaker 8: of oil. Suddenly they had, you know, that you have

1628
01:33:00,880 --> 01:33:03,800
Speaker 8: hundreds of billions of dollars floating around and because this

1629
01:33:03,840 --> 01:33:05,680
Speaker 8: is capitalism, you can't just sit on that money. You

1630
01:33:05,720 --> 01:33:07,200
Speaker 8: have to find a way to turn that money into

1631
01:33:07,240 --> 01:33:09,519
Speaker 8: more money. But again, you know, I mean just a

1632
01:33:09,560 --> 01:33:13,599
Speaker 8: sovereign wealth fund is almost a trillion dollars, right, and

1633
01:33:13,640 --> 01:33:16,400
Speaker 8: so this is extremely hard, and it means that this

1634
01:33:16,520 --> 01:33:19,439
Speaker 8: money is constantly flowing around the world trying to find

1635
01:33:19,479 --> 01:33:20,920
Speaker 8: a way to get returns on it, you know. And

1636
01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:24,840
Speaker 8: in the modern era, these are things like people remember

1637
01:33:24,920 --> 01:33:27,600
Speaker 8: we work, oh yeah, but incredibly stupid dune. From the

1638
01:33:27,600 --> 01:33:31,639
Speaker 8: beginning office space rental scheme that went under that that

1639
01:33:31,760 --> 01:33:33,920
Speaker 8: was a lot of that was funded by Saudi money

1640
01:33:33,960 --> 01:33:36,200
Speaker 8: because Tuddy's had put an enormous amount of money in

1641
01:33:37,000 --> 01:33:39,080
Speaker 8: this Japanese bank called soft Bank, and soft Bank was

1642
01:33:39,120 --> 01:33:41,240
Speaker 8: trying to figure out what to do with this unfathol

1643
01:33:41,240 --> 01:33:43,080
Speaker 8: amount of money, and they were like, Okay, what if

1644
01:33:43,120 --> 01:33:45,040
Speaker 8: we fund the dumbest project of all time?

1645
01:33:45,600 --> 01:33:47,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it became a thing where they could fund

1646
01:33:47,560 --> 01:33:50,519
Speaker 4: it and like just buy them funding it. Its stock

1647
01:33:50,600 --> 01:33:52,479
Speaker 4: price would go up even if it was like we

1648
01:33:52,520 --> 01:33:54,320
Speaker 4: work a really shit idea.

1649
01:33:54,760 --> 01:33:55,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1650
01:33:55,160 --> 01:33:57,400
Speaker 8: And this is something about global capital that I don't

1651
01:33:57,439 --> 01:34:03,240
Speaker 8: think has been fully processed really. But the sheer, the

1652
01:34:03,240 --> 01:34:06,360
Speaker 8: sheer extent of capital concentration, right, the amount of money

1653
01:34:06,400 --> 01:34:08,400
Speaker 8: that the richest people in the world and the riches

1654
01:34:08,479 --> 01:34:09,880
Speaker 8: sort of families in the world in the sort of

1655
01:34:09,880 --> 01:34:12,960
Speaker 8: Saudi case, right, you know, the Saudi Arabia is a

1656
01:34:13,000 --> 01:34:15,280
Speaker 8: country where a family has access to the resources of

1657
01:34:15,320 --> 01:34:20,240
Speaker 8: extremely wealthy nation state. Right, And that being true has

1658
01:34:20,320 --> 01:34:22,880
Speaker 8: structural effects on the entire rest of the economy because

1659
01:34:22,920 --> 01:34:25,240
Speaker 8: you know, we've been seeing the consequences of this for

1660
01:34:25,280 --> 01:34:27,439
Speaker 8: a long time in the tech sector, right, where you

1661
01:34:27,439 --> 01:34:30,679
Speaker 8: don't have to fucking make money, like your revenue stream

1662
01:34:30,760 --> 01:34:33,800
Speaker 8: can just be investor money and you can coast for

1663
01:34:33,840 --> 01:34:37,240
Speaker 8: a decade off of just taking money from the Saudis

1664
01:34:37,280 --> 01:34:38,920
Speaker 8: who are like trying to find some way to turn

1665
01:34:38,960 --> 01:34:39,240
Speaker 8: this money.

1666
01:34:39,240 --> 01:34:39,800
Speaker 5: And the more money.

1667
01:34:40,320 --> 01:34:42,560
Speaker 8: I think this has downstream effects that we don't we

1668
01:34:42,600 --> 01:34:47,000
Speaker 8: haven't even begun to really understand yet, right, But very famously,

1669
01:34:47,080 --> 01:34:48,880
Speaker 8: in the seventies and eighties, there was all this money

1670
01:34:48,880 --> 01:34:53,160
Speaker 8: floating around and what it was poured into was the

1671
01:34:53,160 --> 01:34:55,920
Speaker 8: Third Book debt crisis. People bought state debt with it,

1672
01:34:56,479 --> 01:35:00,480
Speaker 8: and then these loans were on it were on adjustable rates.

1673
01:35:00,520 --> 01:35:03,640
Speaker 8: So when the vulgar shock hit and the US like

1674
01:35:03,720 --> 01:35:06,479
Speaker 8: massively increased interest rates, the interest rates on these loans

1675
01:35:06,520 --> 01:35:08,719
Speaker 8: like skyrocketed and suddenly you know, you're paying like fifty

1676
01:35:08,720 --> 01:35:11,800
Speaker 8: percent interest on a loan of like cephal billion dollars.

1677
01:35:11,840 --> 01:35:15,000
Speaker 8: And all of these countries are just systematically looted. Their

1678
01:35:15,000 --> 01:35:18,960
Speaker 8: economies are destroyed. I mean, David Grab rememorably talks about

1679
01:35:19,320 --> 01:35:23,760
Speaker 8: this thing in Madagascar where Madagascar had eliminated malaria. You know,

1680
01:35:23,840 --> 01:35:26,960
Speaker 8: but the way you eliminate malaria is through mosquito extermination.

1681
01:35:27,160 --> 01:35:28,960
Speaker 8: Like programs are not that expensive, but they are a

1682
01:35:28,960 --> 01:35:32,520
Speaker 8: little bit expensive. And when the fucking government of Madagascar

1683
01:35:32,640 --> 01:35:34,519
Speaker 8: had to like pay off this IMF debt, they had

1684
01:35:34,520 --> 01:35:34,840
Speaker 8: to get.

1685
01:35:34,800 --> 01:35:36,639
Speaker 5: Rid of the they.

1686
01:35:36,600 --> 01:35:38,559
Speaker 8: Got rid of this mosquito programs, and there was a

1687
01:35:38,560 --> 01:35:41,240
Speaker 8: malaria outpick and it killed unfathomable numbers of people, and

1688
01:35:41,280 --> 01:35:44,040
Speaker 8: stuff like this happened all over the world. And the

1689
01:35:44,120 --> 01:35:46,000
Speaker 8: source of all of this, right, partially the source of

1690
01:35:46,000 --> 01:35:47,680
Speaker 8: this is these loans. And partially the source of this

1691
01:35:47,920 --> 01:35:51,559
Speaker 8: is this these enormous piles of petro dollars that you

1692
01:35:51,640 --> 01:35:53,400
Speaker 8: have to find some way to sort of turn into

1693
01:35:53,400 --> 01:35:57,160
Speaker 8: more capital, right, and you know, so there are sort

1694
01:35:57,200 --> 01:36:00,120
Speaker 8: of trademark things you can do with this money. Of

1695
01:36:00,120 --> 01:36:03,040
Speaker 8: them is buying a bunch of a military equipment. Mostly

1696
01:36:03,040 --> 01:36:05,200
Speaker 8: what you're doing with that is sort of buying American patronage.

1697
01:36:05,280 --> 01:36:07,639
Speaker 8: If you spend enormous amount of money buying American tanks,

1698
01:36:07,680 --> 01:36:09,040
Speaker 8: and this is you know, something the Saudi has been

1699
01:36:09,040 --> 01:36:11,559
Speaker 8: doing for ages, right, you spend a bunch of money

1700
01:36:11,600 --> 01:36:13,720
Speaker 8: on American defense contracts. You know, you can sort of

1701
01:36:13,760 --> 01:36:16,799
Speaker 8: buy us protection and guarantees that you know, for example,

1702
01:36:16,800 --> 01:36:18,640
Speaker 8: as it is gonna happen later in this episode, you

1703
01:36:18,680 --> 01:36:21,200
Speaker 8: can buy a guarantee that an invading army won't sack

1704
01:36:21,240 --> 01:36:24,360
Speaker 8: your capital. But the thing with the Saudis is that

1705
01:36:24,360 --> 01:36:27,719
Speaker 8: they have a lot of equipment but Saudi Arabia cannot

1706
01:36:27,800 --> 01:36:31,200
Speaker 8: maintain a strong functional army, right if they were, if

1707
01:36:31,240 --> 01:36:33,479
Speaker 8: they had an actual serious army, there would be a

1708
01:36:33,479 --> 01:36:38,360
Speaker 8: coup tomorrow. So their army is extremely well equipped kind of,

1709
01:36:38,439 --> 01:36:40,960
Speaker 8: but it's trained like shit and it's run by like

1710
01:36:41,120 --> 01:36:44,760
Speaker 8: just dipshits intentionally so that it sucks. But you know,

1711
01:36:44,800 --> 01:36:46,200
Speaker 8: so that's like sort of one thing you can do

1712
01:36:46,240 --> 01:36:48,519
Speaker 8: with this money. A lot of this money ended up

1713
01:36:48,520 --> 01:36:51,559
Speaker 8: going into real estate, and there are sort of cycles

1714
01:36:51,560 --> 01:36:54,400
Speaker 8: of this happening. The one that ain't that's of concern

1715
01:36:54,479 --> 01:36:56,479
Speaker 8: to us is what happens after two thousand and eight,

1716
01:36:56,760 --> 01:36:59,280
Speaker 8: in the sort of aftermath of two thousand and eight.

1717
01:36:59,320 --> 01:37:04,439
Speaker 8: There are bill places in the world where, you know,

1718
01:37:04,560 --> 01:37:08,040
Speaker 8: you can park an extremely large amount of money in

1719
01:37:08,120 --> 01:37:11,960
Speaker 8: real estate and have it be a relatively liquid asset.

1720
01:37:12,439 --> 01:37:15,320
Speaker 8: If you have like property in a market that is,

1721
01:37:15,360 --> 01:37:17,080
Speaker 8: you know, where the housing market is really hot and

1722
01:37:17,120 --> 01:37:19,439
Speaker 8: prices are increasing rapidly, you can pretty quickly get rid

1723
01:37:19,479 --> 01:37:21,080
Speaker 8: of it. And you can also there's liquidity. There's sort

1724
01:37:21,080 --> 01:37:23,760
Speaker 8: of financial instruments you can do based off of your

1725
01:37:23,800 --> 01:37:26,879
Speaker 8: ownership of real estate, and this is something that drives

1726
01:37:26,920 --> 01:37:30,000
Speaker 8: the Saudis into a bunch of very very I don't

1727
01:37:30,000 --> 01:37:31,760
Speaker 8: know if risky is exactly the right word, but a

1728
01:37:31,760 --> 01:37:36,280
Speaker 8: bunch of moves in ye Many real estate that really,

1729
01:37:36,320 --> 01:37:38,559
Speaker 8: truly we're about to not pay off.

1730
01:37:39,120 --> 01:37:40,360
Speaker 5: There's a very good book about this.

1731
01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:45,559
Speaker 8: It's by Lisa Bloomy called Destroying Yemen, which is about

1732
01:37:45,960 --> 01:37:47,639
Speaker 8: like a lot of the factors that start the war

1733
01:37:47,640 --> 01:37:49,240
Speaker 8: in Yemen, and this is one of them.

1734
01:37:49,320 --> 01:37:49,479
Speaker 5: Right.

1735
01:37:50,000 --> 01:37:53,200
Speaker 8: We can't really do a full recap of the Many

1736
01:37:53,240 --> 01:37:57,960
Speaker 8: Civil War because that's its own seven hundred episode podcast, Like,

1737
01:37:58,680 --> 01:38:02,800
Speaker 8: oh god it is. Yeah, it's on a surface level,

1738
01:38:02,840 --> 01:38:04,760
Speaker 8: it's not that complicated, but the moment you get any

1739
01:38:04,800 --> 01:38:07,960
Speaker 8: granular detail on it, it's like the most complicated conflict

1740
01:38:08,000 --> 01:38:08,679
Speaker 8: I've ever studied.

1741
01:38:09,040 --> 01:38:11,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean there's so many conflicts like this, right, Like, yeah,

1742
01:38:11,920 --> 01:38:15,280
Speaker 4: civil war appreciates us. When I was studying Yemen in college,

1743
01:38:15,320 --> 01:38:18,800
Speaker 4: I longed for the simplicity of the Spanish Civil War,

1744
01:38:19,160 --> 01:38:23,200
Speaker 4: Like this conflict is nuts, Yeah, but for simplicity's sake.

1745
01:38:23,880 --> 01:38:27,600
Speaker 4: There's roughly ish two factions. There are the sort of

1746
01:38:27,600 --> 01:38:29,960
Speaker 4: forces allied with what's called the Coalition government, which is

1747
01:38:29,960 --> 01:38:33,040
Speaker 4: the government backed by the Saudis, and then there are

1748
01:38:33,200 --> 01:38:35,679
Speaker 4: what's sort of in the West become called the Huthis.

1749
01:38:35,800 --> 01:38:37,680
Speaker 4: I mean it's more complicated. It's all of this is

1750
01:38:37,760 --> 01:38:40,840
Speaker 4: enormously more complicated than that. These are all alliances. A

1751
01:38:40,840 --> 01:38:44,360
Speaker 4: lot of these alliances are extremely tenuous. But one of

1752
01:38:44,400 --> 01:38:46,560
Speaker 4: the things that happens is that when a government that

1753
01:38:46,680 --> 01:38:49,200
Speaker 4: is hostile to the Saudis, which is like you know,

1754
01:38:49,280 --> 01:38:51,439
Speaker 4: the sort of like unterer a law like that whole

1755
01:38:52,040 --> 01:38:54,879
Speaker 4: coalition is very awso to the saudiast because the Saudis

1756
01:38:54,920 --> 01:38:57,720
Speaker 4: sucks shit. You know, Suddenly the Saudis are looking at

1757
01:38:57,760 --> 01:39:00,639
Speaker 4: an enormous amount of capital they've sunk in real estate

1758
01:39:00,640 --> 01:39:02,880
Speaker 4: that they are you know, based on these like incredibly

1759
01:39:02,880 --> 01:39:05,479
Speaker 4: corrupt land deals with the previous administration, which have been

1760
01:39:05,479 --> 01:39:09,200
Speaker 4: friendly to them, they are looking at suddenly losing all

1761
01:39:09,200 --> 01:39:11,599
Speaker 4: this land. The Saudis weren't the first people to come

1762
01:39:11,640 --> 01:39:13,479
Speaker 4: into sort of the m many real estate market right

1763
01:39:13,479 --> 01:39:15,720
Speaker 4: on the uae Omah and a bunch of other states

1764
01:39:15,720 --> 01:39:18,080
Speaker 4: has sort of been in there before. And so part

1765
01:39:18,080 --> 01:39:19,519
Speaker 4: of what a big part of what this sort of

1766
01:39:19,520 --> 01:39:21,920
Speaker 4: this like what was called the coalition is is this

1767
01:39:22,640 --> 01:39:25,439
Speaker 4: like basically a bunch of these assholes trying to protect

1768
01:39:25,439 --> 01:39:28,400
Speaker 4: their housing assets. Look, that's a lot of what a

1769
01:39:28,400 --> 01:39:30,559
Speaker 4: lot of wars are. If we're on it, it's people

1770
01:39:30,600 --> 01:39:34,679
Speaker 4: trying to protect xoy assets, right like unfortunately.

1771
01:39:34,840 --> 01:39:38,439
Speaker 8: Yeah, and it's not really seen in these terms in

1772
01:39:38,479 --> 01:39:41,240
Speaker 8: the way that's covered. But that's that's a lot of

1773
01:39:41,840 --> 01:39:46,679
Speaker 8: what's going on. And this produces one of the worst

1774
01:39:46,720 --> 01:39:49,200
Speaker 8: wars of the twenty first century, which is saying something

1775
01:39:49,200 --> 01:39:50,519
Speaker 8: because the twenty for centuries had a lot.

1776
01:39:50,439 --> 01:39:51,800
Speaker 5: Of really really terrible wars.

1777
01:39:51,880 --> 01:39:52,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, we've had some reference.

1778
01:39:53,520 --> 01:39:55,479
Speaker 8: Yeah, and we're going to get into what the Saudis

1779
01:39:55,479 --> 01:40:08,280
Speaker 8: were doing during this war. After these products and services

1780
01:40:09,000 --> 01:40:10,120
Speaker 8: you have returned and.

1781
01:40:10,080 --> 01:40:11,280
Speaker 5: The thing we're returning.

1782
01:40:10,960 --> 01:40:13,040
Speaker 4: Into is a really really bleak war.

1783
01:40:13,240 --> 01:40:15,720
Speaker 8: So we said this kind of from the beginning, right,

1784
01:40:15,720 --> 01:40:19,519
Speaker 8: the Saudi military is not very good. The Saudi's attempt

1785
01:40:19,640 --> 01:40:21,960
Speaker 8: to sort of end the war by like rolling a

1786
01:40:22,000 --> 01:40:24,680
Speaker 8: tank column over the border. It's like, I think it's

1787
01:40:25,600 --> 01:40:28,479
Speaker 8: twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, in like the early period of

1788
01:40:28,479 --> 01:40:30,439
Speaker 8: the war, they try to end up by just rolling tanks,

1789
01:40:30,439 --> 01:40:34,080
Speaker 8: and tanks get obliterated because the Saudi army isn't worth shit, right.

1790
01:40:34,760 --> 01:40:38,439
Speaker 8: All of their ground forces are a joke, but their

1791
01:40:38,479 --> 01:40:41,559
Speaker 8: air force is very very well equipped with a bunch

1792
01:40:41,600 --> 01:40:44,240
Speaker 8: of like incredibly modern US warplanes that we sell them

1793
01:40:44,280 --> 01:40:46,840
Speaker 8: all the fucking time, and so you know, they don't

1794
01:40:46,840 --> 01:40:48,720
Speaker 8: really have good infantry. What they have the ability to

1795
01:40:48,760 --> 01:40:51,880
Speaker 8: do is just obliterate people with air strikes. The kind

1796
01:40:51,920 --> 01:40:54,439
Speaker 8: of like terror air campaign that they're waging is something

1797
01:40:54,439 --> 01:40:56,680
Speaker 8: that I think we're all familiar with from Palestine. But

1798
01:40:57,280 --> 01:40:59,960
Speaker 8: they're doing air strikes on school buses full of children,

1799
01:41:00,080 --> 01:41:02,880
Speaker 8: and they're taking the American thing. They're doing double tap

1800
01:41:03,000 --> 01:41:06,240
Speaker 8: drone strikes on weddings where they're they're hitting a wedding

1801
01:41:06,280 --> 01:41:08,200
Speaker 8: and then when rescue workers come up, they hit they hit.

1802
01:41:08,080 --> 01:41:09,400
Speaker 5: The rescue workers with their strikes.

1803
01:41:09,479 --> 01:41:09,639
Speaker 4: Right.

1804
01:41:09,840 --> 01:41:11,160
Speaker 8: I'm pretty sure it was young when they had the

1805
01:41:11,160 --> 01:41:13,640
Speaker 8: triple tap fucking airstrike where they did an airstrike on

1806
01:41:13,640 --> 01:41:16,160
Speaker 8: someone's funeral. They didn't airstrike on the rescue workers, and

1807
01:41:16,160 --> 01:41:17,640
Speaker 8: then when they had a funeral for those people, they

1808
01:41:17,680 --> 01:41:18,680
Speaker 8: did air strike on fucking that.

1809
01:41:19,240 --> 01:41:19,360
Speaker 4: Right.

1810
01:41:19,920 --> 01:41:21,840
Speaker 5: This is a just.

1811
01:41:21,840 --> 01:41:24,519
Speaker 8: Unbelievably brutal war. And you know, I want to get

1812
01:41:24,520 --> 01:41:26,880
Speaker 8: which we talked about, right, like there are some there

1813
01:41:26,920 --> 01:41:32,320
Speaker 8: are some parts of the Saudi coalition that can you know,

1814
01:41:32,479 --> 01:41:36,080
Speaker 8: field ground forces, right, that stuff's mostly the sort of

1815
01:41:36,160 --> 01:41:41,240
Speaker 8: southern secessionist groups and those people are not really that loyal,

1816
01:41:42,000 --> 01:41:44,559
Speaker 8: so you know, so they have to start importing infantry

1817
01:41:44,600 --> 01:41:47,160
Speaker 8: to try to fight the who thies, and so they're

1818
01:41:47,200 --> 01:41:49,800
Speaker 8: importing a bunch of Columbian mercenaries. So these are guys

1819
01:41:49,840 --> 01:41:52,559
Speaker 8: who've been like desk squad guys in Columbia.

1820
01:41:51,960 --> 01:41:55,200
Speaker 4: The Columbian guys, the new I was going to say,

1821
01:41:55,200 --> 01:41:58,240
Speaker 4: the new Rhodesians that it's a dog shadowt to cost

1822
01:41:58,280 --> 01:42:01,479
Speaker 4: and a group of human beings. Yeah, it used to

1823
01:42:01,520 --> 01:42:05,160
Speaker 4: be that when you were running into private military contractors abroad,

1824
01:42:05,439 --> 01:42:10,000
Speaker 4: it would be people white folks from Africa, right, Like

1825
01:42:10,240 --> 01:42:14,040
Speaker 4: they call themselves Rhodesion South Africans, what have you. Now

1826
01:42:14,400 --> 01:42:16,679
Speaker 4: you'll see a lot of like a lot of private

1827
01:42:16,680 --> 01:42:20,320
Speaker 4: military contractors, like at the boots on the ground, you know,

1828
01:42:20,400 --> 01:42:21,800
Speaker 4: infantry level of Colombians.

1829
01:42:22,680 --> 01:42:24,880
Speaker 8: Yeah, and so so that that's one of the sources

1830
01:42:24,920 --> 01:42:27,720
Speaker 8: they went to. But then you know, part of the

1831
01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:31,360
Speaker 8: Saudi coalition is the UAE, and the UAE has a

1832
01:42:31,400 --> 01:42:34,639
Speaker 8: lot of very very close ties to militant groups in Sudance,

1833
01:42:34,680 --> 01:42:38,519
Speaker 8: specifically a group of militias that's now known the West

1834
01:42:38,560 --> 01:42:41,679
Speaker 8: of the Rapid Response Forces but these are the people

1835
01:42:41,680 --> 01:42:43,760
Speaker 8: who did the genocide and are for yeah, and they

1836
01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:47,280
Speaker 8: are like right now like doing a genocide in like

1837
01:42:47,400 --> 01:42:49,360
Speaker 8: in Sudan as they attempt to sort of seize control

1838
01:42:49,439 --> 01:42:52,840
Speaker 8: of the country. And because the UAE is very very

1839
01:42:52,840 --> 01:42:54,880
Speaker 8: well connected to these one of the ways that the

1840
01:42:54,920 --> 01:42:59,880
Speaker 8: coalition tries to get ground troops is by using troops

1841
01:43:00,160 --> 01:43:03,000
Speaker 8: were you know, kidnapped by these militias. And when I

1842
01:43:03,040 --> 01:43:05,680
Speaker 8: say troops, I mean child soldiers. What the forces that

1843
01:43:05,720 --> 01:43:08,080
Speaker 8: they are deploying in Yemen in an attempt to use

1844
01:43:08,080 --> 01:43:13,000
Speaker 8: as cannon fodder are Sudanese child soldiers. It is unbelievably believe,

1845
01:43:13,000 --> 01:43:15,000
Speaker 8: I mean kind of funnily. A lot of these people

1846
01:43:15,040 --> 01:43:17,280
Speaker 8: end up not fighting because they you know, they get

1847
01:43:17,280 --> 01:43:19,200
Speaker 8: handed a rifle, will get thrown into Yemen and they

1848
01:43:19,200 --> 01:43:24,040
Speaker 8: just immediately sell their guns and I to fight. But like,

1849
01:43:24,280 --> 01:43:25,960
Speaker 8: you know, but like that, that's the kind of shit.

1850
01:43:26,120 --> 01:43:29,320
Speaker 8: Like again, the kind of pure evil we are dealing

1851
01:43:29,360 --> 01:43:32,200
Speaker 8: with is we are having the guys who did the dart,

1852
01:43:32,240 --> 01:43:36,719
Speaker 8: who did the fucking Darfur genocide, kidnap fucking villagers from Sudan,

1853
01:43:36,840 --> 01:43:39,559
Speaker 8: like child soldiers from Sudan and attempting to use them

1854
01:43:39,560 --> 01:43:42,080
Speaker 8: as cannon father in their fucking war in Yemen, so

1855
01:43:42,120 --> 01:43:44,200
Speaker 8: they can like defend their fucking real estate assets.

1856
01:43:44,280 --> 01:43:47,080
Speaker 4: Yeah right, I think Friend of the Show Eric Prince

1857
01:43:47,320 --> 01:43:49,920
Speaker 4: makes a uh makes an appearance in Yemen as well

1858
01:43:50,320 --> 01:43:53,920
Speaker 4: his Triumvira of companies, which are the same company, right,

1859
01:43:53,960 --> 01:43:54,800
Speaker 4: Black Quota Z.

1860
01:43:55,320 --> 01:43:55,679
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1861
01:43:55,720 --> 01:44:01,240
Speaker 8: Probably, I quite frankly don't remember that part, but probably also, Yeah, you.

1862
01:44:01,280 --> 01:44:03,519
Speaker 4: Can rely on EP to show up in a situation

1863
01:44:03,600 --> 01:44:03,960
Speaker 4: I is.

1864
01:44:04,640 --> 01:44:04,920
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1865
01:44:05,000 --> 01:44:06,479
Speaker 8: I mean the part of this we haven't gotten to

1866
01:44:06,600 --> 01:44:09,519
Speaker 8: yet is the worst part of it, which is so

1867
01:44:09,560 --> 01:44:13,160
Speaker 8: this the Saudis and the sort of coalition government they

1868
01:44:13,320 --> 01:44:16,479
Speaker 8: you know, they do okay in the sort of southwest

1869
01:44:16,520 --> 01:44:20,120
Speaker 8: of the country because the Southern Yemen secessionst groups are

1870
01:44:20,360 --> 01:44:23,679
Speaker 8: well organized and are good soldiers, even if they eventually

1871
01:44:23,720 --> 01:44:26,080
Speaker 8: sort of rebel. There's this whole it's it's a whole mess.

1872
01:44:26,120 --> 01:44:30,679
Speaker 8: But in the west of the country everything is completely different,

1873
01:44:30,720 --> 01:44:32,720
Speaker 8: and you know, they're basically getting their shit kicked in

1874
01:44:33,200 --> 01:44:37,800
Speaker 8: and in that theater, the Saudi's plan is we are

1875
01:44:37,840 --> 01:44:40,920
Speaker 8: going to starve the country, so, you know, and the Saudi,

1876
01:44:40,960 --> 01:44:44,360
Speaker 8: the Saudis have naval assets nobody else really in this

1877
01:44:44,439 --> 01:44:48,160
Speaker 8: war does, right, and they just set up a blockade

1878
01:44:48,280 --> 01:44:50,080
Speaker 8: on like all of the ports on that side of

1879
01:44:50,120 --> 01:44:52,960
Speaker 8: the country. We do not know how many people get

1880
01:44:53,000 --> 01:44:56,240
Speaker 8: starved as a result of this. The last good mortality

1881
01:44:56,240 --> 01:44:58,040
Speaker 8: figures I could I could find, this war is still

1882
01:44:58,080 --> 01:45:01,080
Speaker 8: going on, by the way. I mean, fighting has gotten

1883
01:45:01,200 --> 01:45:03,880
Speaker 8: a lot less intense since of twenty twenty one, twenty

1884
01:45:03,920 --> 01:45:06,680
Speaker 8: twenty two, but I mean it's it's still going The

1885
01:45:06,760 --> 01:45:09,599
Speaker 8: last good numbers that I can find suggest three hundred

1886
01:45:09,600 --> 01:45:13,680
Speaker 8: and seventy seven thousand dead, and it's probably way way

1887
01:45:13,760 --> 01:45:16,080
Speaker 8: worse than that, because again, we just don't know how

1888
01:45:16,080 --> 01:45:18,519
Speaker 8: many people died in the famines that you know that

1889
01:45:18,520 --> 01:45:21,360
Speaker 8: that the Saudi set off, and this was you know,

1890
01:45:21,400 --> 01:45:24,320
Speaker 8: this was explicitly there. Their plan here was was to

1891
01:45:24,479 --> 01:45:26,799
Speaker 8: just kill off the population of this part of Yemen

1892
01:45:26,880 --> 01:45:29,880
Speaker 8: by starving them to death. You know, this is the genocide, right,

1893
01:45:29,920 --> 01:45:31,880
Speaker 8: they were trying to do genocide. It doesn't work, and

1894
01:45:31,920 --> 01:45:34,760
Speaker 8: it doesn't work because, I mean there's a number of

1895
01:45:34,760 --> 01:45:38,280
Speaker 8: reasons why it doesn't work. They basically they get defeated militarily.

1896
01:45:38,880 --> 01:45:43,120
Speaker 8: Kuthi troops like take several cities like inside of Saudi Rabia,

1897
01:45:43,160 --> 01:45:44,840
Speaker 8: and like they like they march across the border and

1898
01:45:44,920 --> 01:45:47,559
Speaker 8: take them. And you know, I mean, it's it's bad

1899
01:45:47,680 --> 01:45:49,400
Speaker 8: enough for the Saudis that like the there's a moment

1900
01:45:49,439 --> 01:45:51,040
Speaker 8: where it like it looks like they're going to lose

1901
01:45:51,120 --> 01:45:53,479
Speaker 8: ri Odd and the US has to step in and

1902
01:45:53,520 --> 01:45:56,080
Speaker 8: be like no, like okay, you guys need to fucking.

1903
01:45:55,880 --> 01:45:56,679
Speaker 5: Pull out of this shit.

1904
01:45:56,840 --> 01:45:58,680
Speaker 8: But that you know that, and that that makes the

1905
01:45:58,720 --> 01:46:04,800
Speaker 8: war less bad, you know, like the blockades not still

1906
01:46:04,800 --> 01:46:07,120
Speaker 8: in place. But this is the situation in twenty twenty

1907
01:46:07,160 --> 01:46:09,240
Speaker 8: two that we walk into when when suddenly there's they're

1908
01:46:09,240 --> 01:46:12,000
Speaker 8: buying all these esports companies that they have just attempted

1909
01:46:12,000 --> 01:46:15,720
Speaker 8: to commit a genocide, right, they have just attempted to

1910
01:46:15,880 --> 01:46:18,880
Speaker 8: exterminate a vast part of the population of Yemen. That's

1911
01:46:19,000 --> 01:46:21,360
Speaker 8: I think, like really the true sort of heart of darkness,

1912
01:46:21,400 --> 01:46:24,360
Speaker 8: evil shit, right, Like I don't know, it's like US

1913
01:46:24,360 --> 01:46:25,439
Speaker 8: and Cambodia is shit.

1914
01:46:26,000 --> 01:46:28,320
Speaker 5: But you know, there's stuff that got.

1915
01:46:28,160 --> 01:46:30,559
Speaker 8: More media attention too, which was like in a lot

1916
01:46:30,560 --> 01:46:33,240
Speaker 8: of ways more harmful to them because that the pr

1917
01:46:33,280 --> 01:46:34,599
Speaker 8: from it. But one of the things I think people

1918
01:46:34,600 --> 01:46:37,320
Speaker 8: have forgotten now because this was six years ago, is

1919
01:46:37,360 --> 01:46:41,400
Speaker 8: that in twenty eighteen they kidnapped and then killed a

1920
01:46:42,200 --> 01:46:45,880
Speaker 8: Washington Post columnist named Jamal ka Shogi by tricking him

1921
01:46:45,920 --> 01:46:49,679
Speaker 8: into going into a consulate, killing him, carving his body

1922
01:46:49,760 --> 01:46:50,800
Speaker 8: up with a bone saw.

1923
01:46:51,560 --> 01:46:53,400
Speaker 5: And we're pretty sure the way.

1924
01:46:53,280 --> 01:46:55,000
Speaker 8: That they got the body out of the consulate was

1925
01:46:55,000 --> 01:46:58,280
Speaker 8: by stuffing the fucking again bone saled parts of his

1926
01:46:58,360 --> 01:47:02,040
Speaker 8: body into see bags in a diplomatic community and walking

1927
01:47:02,080 --> 01:47:02,919
Speaker 8: them out of the embassy.

1928
01:47:03,680 --> 01:47:06,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is one of those things that I should

1929
01:47:06,640 --> 01:47:09,600
Speaker 4: never be forgotten, right, Like, yeah, he was a citizen, right,

1930
01:47:09,720 --> 01:47:10,759
Speaker 4: was he a green cod hode?

1931
01:47:11,680 --> 01:47:16,439
Speaker 8: I'm not one hundred percent sure, but this is obviously

1932
01:47:16,840 --> 01:47:20,240
Speaker 8: like a fucking unbelievable crime. I think I wish that

1933
01:47:20,960 --> 01:47:23,520
Speaker 8: you know, the fact that they were doing fucking airstrikes

1934
01:47:23,560 --> 01:47:26,559
Speaker 8: on school buses had gotten as much attention as this did.

1935
01:47:26,760 --> 01:47:29,720
Speaker 8: But you know, for for a long time, right, like

1936
01:47:29,760 --> 01:47:32,519
Speaker 8: in the late twenty tens and the early twenty twenties,

1937
01:47:32,520 --> 01:47:34,639
Speaker 8: and this this was an issue in the twenty twenty

1938
01:47:35,200 --> 01:47:38,040
Speaker 8: presidential campaigns because you know, I mean, Trump fucking went

1939
01:47:38,080 --> 01:47:41,120
Speaker 8: and touched the orb with Muhammed bin Salman, who's the

1940
01:47:41,400 --> 01:47:45,639
Speaker 8: Crown Prince of now Well at the time, was known

1941
01:47:45,680 --> 01:47:49,040
Speaker 8: as Mohammad Been bone saw because she just straight up

1942
01:47:49,120 --> 01:47:52,080
Speaker 8: ordered this guy to be fucking bone salved, you know,

1943
01:47:52,120 --> 01:47:53,679
Speaker 8: but like that it was. It was a real sort

1944
01:47:53,680 --> 01:47:55,439
Speaker 8: of issue. And this is the reputation that the Satuda

1945
01:47:55,439 --> 01:47:59,759
Speaker 8: government has that causes them to kind of go really

1946
01:47:59,760 --> 01:48:02,200
Speaker 8: really hard into the into this esports angle. And there

1947
01:48:02,320 --> 01:48:04,479
Speaker 8: there's one last kind of angle to this, which is

1948
01:48:04,520 --> 01:48:07,960
Speaker 8: like the worst kept secret in the of the oil

1949
01:48:08,000 --> 01:48:09,679
Speaker 8: market is that the Saudis are running out of oil.

1950
01:48:10,360 --> 01:48:13,040
Speaker 8: It's like it's it's technically a secret, but it's like

1951
01:48:13,200 --> 01:48:16,800
Speaker 8: everyone knows this, Like every everyone knows that a lot

1952
01:48:16,800 --> 01:48:20,400
Speaker 8: of sort of oil that's technically sold by Saudi Ramco

1953
01:48:20,840 --> 01:48:24,280
Speaker 8: is not their oil, it's their labels and other people's oil.

1954
01:48:24,640 --> 01:48:26,640
Speaker 8: And people have known this for a long time, and

1955
01:48:26,680 --> 01:48:29,519
Speaker 8: the Saudis obviously know it. And so the trick they

1956
01:48:29,560 --> 01:48:31,600
Speaker 8: have to pull right in order to continue to be

1957
01:48:31,760 --> 01:48:36,599
Speaker 8: this fucking like nightmare dictatorship state propped up by the CIA,

1958
01:48:37,360 --> 01:48:39,880
Speaker 8: is to find something else to base their economy on.

1959
01:48:40,080 --> 01:48:42,599
Speaker 8: And their plan has been a lot of like they're

1960
01:48:42,600 --> 01:48:45,120
Speaker 8: trying to do just tech bullshit we're not going to

1961
01:48:45,200 --> 01:48:47,160
Speaker 8: get into because that's its own thing.

1962
01:48:48,000 --> 01:48:51,160
Speaker 4: I'm so sad. I'm so sad to be talking about

1963
01:48:51,200 --> 01:48:52,160
Speaker 4: the line.

1964
01:48:52,280 --> 01:48:53,599
Speaker 5: Sorry, the lines.

1965
01:48:53,760 --> 01:48:55,040
Speaker 4: Yet they're trying to build a city that is a

1966
01:48:55,040 --> 01:48:58,360
Speaker 4: lot of that is also a city, a really really

1967
01:48:58,400 --> 01:49:00,960
Speaker 4: long city is a line that's to be their tech thing.

1968
01:49:01,360 --> 01:49:03,960
Speaker 4: You may sound like we're ever simplifying this, We are not. No,

1969
01:49:04,080 --> 01:49:05,439
Speaker 4: it is that they are trying to build a city

1970
01:49:05,479 --> 01:49:06,000
Speaker 4: that is aligned.

1971
01:49:06,040 --> 01:49:06,880
Speaker 5: It's not going to get built.

1972
01:49:06,920 --> 01:49:10,840
Speaker 8: What it has done is they've absolutely destroyed the lives

1973
01:49:10,880 --> 01:49:12,880
Speaker 8: of a bunch of sort of people who are just

1974
01:49:12,920 --> 01:49:16,640
Speaker 8: like farmers and cattle like herders, like some of the

1975
01:49:16,680 --> 01:49:18,280
Speaker 8: metic cattle herders, and people who've been there for a

1976
01:49:18,280 --> 01:49:20,559
Speaker 8: really long time have had their land taken away from

1977
01:49:20,560 --> 01:49:21,360
Speaker 8: them and their lives have been.

1978
01:49:21,280 --> 01:49:23,000
Speaker 5: Destroyed by it. So you know.

1979
01:49:23,920 --> 01:49:25,280
Speaker 8: But the thing is that in order for them to

1980
01:49:25,320 --> 01:49:27,240
Speaker 8: try to do their tech pivot, they have to fix

1981
01:49:27,240 --> 01:49:30,200
Speaker 8: the reputation people. They cannot be the state that is

1982
01:49:30,200 --> 01:49:35,280
Speaker 8: you remembered for like bone sawing a journalist and attempting

1983
01:49:35,320 --> 01:49:37,400
Speaker 8: to start of an entire population and doing air strikes

1984
01:49:37,439 --> 01:49:39,640
Speaker 8: and school buses. Right, this can't be the reputation they have.

1985
01:49:39,720 --> 01:49:42,639
Speaker 4: This is it Vision twenty thirty or Planned twenty thirty

1986
01:49:42,680 --> 01:49:45,519
Speaker 4: or some big yeah yeah, for their like rehabilitation and

1987
01:49:45,600 --> 01:49:50,080
Speaker 4: diversification of their income. But like posts Jamal Kashogi, a

1988
01:49:50,280 --> 01:49:53,320
Speaker 4: lot of big companies like we can't be like like

1989
01:49:53,439 --> 01:49:56,760
Speaker 4: companies like Google, right, and like big big tech companies, Yeah,

1990
01:49:56,840 --> 01:49:58,880
Speaker 4: kind of took a noticeable step back.

1991
01:49:59,240 --> 01:50:01,400
Speaker 8: And so this has been why they've been going into

1992
01:50:01,400 --> 01:50:04,200
Speaker 8: sports because they can throw around, like we're talking nine

1993
01:50:04,320 --> 01:50:07,080
Speaker 8: hundred billion dollars of assets, right, they can just swamp

1994
01:50:07,160 --> 01:50:10,760
Speaker 8: a sport, right, especially something like esports where people are

1995
01:50:10,880 --> 01:50:13,080
Speaker 8: not very well paid, there's not that much money, sources

1996
01:50:13,080 --> 01:50:16,360
Speaker 8: of income are tenuis. They could just sort of buy

1997
01:50:16,400 --> 01:50:18,599
Speaker 8: off these entire industries and it's kind of and it's working.

1998
01:50:18,680 --> 01:50:20,599
Speaker 8: And part of the reason that it's working is that,

1999
01:50:21,400 --> 01:50:24,000
Speaker 8: you know, the focus is on and like, I understand

2000
01:50:24,040 --> 01:50:26,400
Speaker 8: why people are doing this, but the focus has been

2001
01:50:26,560 --> 01:50:30,040
Speaker 8: on the fact that set like the Saudi government is,

2002
01:50:30,640 --> 01:50:32,160
Speaker 8: you know, is sexist and homophobic.

2003
01:50:32,960 --> 01:50:33,879
Speaker 5: And that's true.

2004
01:50:34,240 --> 01:50:36,400
Speaker 8: But if that's the reputation that the Saudis have, that

2005
01:50:36,600 --> 01:50:39,200
Speaker 8: is a win for them because A they'll be able

2006
01:50:39,200 --> 01:50:41,040
Speaker 8: to find people who agree with those views, and B

2007
01:50:41,640 --> 01:50:43,840
Speaker 8: nobody's talking about again the fact that they they they

2008
01:50:43,920 --> 01:50:47,480
Speaker 8: fucky they did an airstrike on a school bus, like

2009
01:50:47,479 --> 01:50:50,559
Speaker 8: like the bodies of children and their fucking school bags

2010
01:50:50,560 --> 01:50:53,800
Speaker 8: were flying over like they they've been able to sort

2011
01:50:53,840 --> 01:50:58,400
Speaker 8: of avoid any kind of more reckoning with this because

2012
01:50:58,439 --> 01:51:02,000
Speaker 8: people are off talking about other stuff, and if this

2013
01:51:02,120 --> 01:51:04,800
Speaker 8: keeps working like it's going to work, there going to

2014
01:51:04,840 --> 01:51:07,160
Speaker 8: be a country that killed three hundred and seventy thousand

2015
01:51:07,240 --> 01:51:09,040
Speaker 8: people and probably more.

2016
01:51:09,479 --> 01:51:11,800
Speaker 4: I think also like one of the reasons they've been

2017
01:51:11,800 --> 01:51:14,720
Speaker 4: able to get away with this is that ah media

2018
01:51:14,920 --> 01:51:18,360
Speaker 4: has normalized massive amounts of death and dying of Muslim

2019
01:51:18,400 --> 01:51:21,360
Speaker 4: people in the Middle East. Yeah, for twenty plus years, right,

2020
01:51:21,400 --> 01:51:25,560
Speaker 4: so a lot of people's entire life of media consumption.

2021
01:51:26,000 --> 01:51:29,559
Speaker 4: Every day, we've dropped bombs and killed hundreds of people

2022
01:51:29,560 --> 01:51:31,439
Speaker 4: in the Middle East, and it's just, yeah, it's the

2023
01:51:31,479 --> 01:51:33,559
Speaker 4: background noise in US media.

2024
01:51:33,680 --> 01:51:35,439
Speaker 8: Yeah, I want to watch one more thing they did

2025
01:51:35,520 --> 01:51:37,960
Speaker 8: that wasn't the script, but I need to fucking talk

2026
01:51:38,000 --> 01:51:40,599
Speaker 8: about because it's one of my formative political experiences. Was

2027
01:51:41,280 --> 01:51:43,400
Speaker 8: So when the Arab Spring started, one of the biggest

2028
01:51:43,439 --> 01:51:45,400
Speaker 8: uprisings was in Bahrain. This is one of the earliest

2029
01:51:45,439 --> 01:51:48,080
Speaker 8: up rising in twenty eleven. There's an attempt to knock

2030
01:51:48,120 --> 01:51:50,720
Speaker 8: off the monarchy of Bahrain, and they probably could have won.

2031
01:51:51,640 --> 01:51:53,760
Speaker 8: The kids in the streets in Bahrain are probably the

2032
01:51:53,800 --> 01:51:56,479
Speaker 8: bravest on of the bravest people I've ever seen. And

2033
01:51:56,560 --> 01:51:59,760
Speaker 8: the Saudis rolled tanks into Bahrain to crush the protests

2034
01:51:59,840 --> 01:52:02,680
Speaker 8: and fucking keep the government intact. And for I mean

2035
01:52:02,920 --> 01:52:05,840
Speaker 8: years for you, I mean like a decade afterwards. Every

2036
01:52:05,840 --> 01:52:08,160
Speaker 8: once in a while, you'd get a video coming like

2037
01:52:08,240 --> 01:52:10,320
Speaker 8: that came out of like the of these kids dressed

2038
01:52:10,320 --> 01:52:12,479
Speaker 8: in all black chasing down an armored vehicle that's shooting

2039
01:52:12,520 --> 01:52:15,000
Speaker 8: at them with molotovs. Right, I've never seen anything. I've

2040
01:52:15,040 --> 01:52:16,720
Speaker 8: never seen anything like it. Like, they're some of the

2041
01:52:16,720 --> 01:52:19,639
Speaker 8: bravest people in the world, and the Saudis fucking rolled

2042
01:52:19,640 --> 01:52:22,920
Speaker 8: tanks into their country to fucking crush them. The fucking

2043
01:52:23,000 --> 01:52:25,160
Speaker 8: esports companies, sure, those are the people whose money you're taking,

2044
01:52:25,439 --> 01:52:28,240
Speaker 8: right you you were, you were taking the money of

2045
01:52:28,280 --> 01:52:30,559
Speaker 8: a bunch of people who rolled tanks into the country,

2046
01:52:31,200 --> 01:52:32,880
Speaker 8: whose people wanted fucking democracy.

2047
01:52:34,560 --> 01:52:36,680
Speaker 5: And yeah, that's that. That's all I got about this.

2048
01:52:36,840 --> 01:52:41,439
Speaker 8: I'm extremely angry about all of this, and.

2049
01:52:43,439 --> 01:52:45,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, fuck them.

2050
01:52:45,400 --> 01:52:47,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, if I can say from a perspective of someone

2051
01:52:48,000 --> 01:52:51,240
Speaker 4: who's been paid to do sports for a decent amount

2052
01:52:51,240 --> 01:52:54,559
Speaker 4: of my life. Yeah, you make shit money, but like

2053
01:52:54,680 --> 01:52:57,160
Speaker 4: it's so much better to not make shit choices as well,

2054
01:52:57,320 --> 01:53:00,360
Speaker 4: And like that goes way beyond like not cheing in

2055
01:53:00,760 --> 01:53:03,519
Speaker 4: the manifest ways of people cheating in in sports, but

2056
01:53:03,640 --> 01:53:06,000
Speaker 4: also just like you don't compromising to the way more

2057
01:53:06,000 --> 01:53:10,360
Speaker 4: important than like playing right, Like sports is supposed to

2058
01:53:10,360 --> 01:53:12,080
Speaker 4: be fun, and if you allow yourself to be a

2059
01:53:12,160 --> 01:53:15,200
Speaker 4: vehicle for things that are terrible, like you're gonna be

2060
01:53:15,240 --> 01:53:17,400
Speaker 4: miserable in your fucking forties anyway, because your body will

2061
01:53:17,400 --> 01:53:19,680
Speaker 4: fall apart. Like, don't make yourself feel guilty for this

2062
01:53:19,720 --> 01:53:20,120
Speaker 4: as well.

2063
01:53:20,600 --> 01:53:22,760
Speaker 8: Yeah, and one last thing I want to address because

2064
01:53:22,800 --> 01:53:24,880
Speaker 8: one of the defenses that Saudi people have been rolling

2065
01:53:24,920 --> 01:53:27,519
Speaker 8: out is this like, oh, you guys don't respect Muslim culture,

2066
01:53:28,360 --> 01:53:30,880
Speaker 8: like because because the main line of complaint has been

2067
01:53:31,000 --> 01:53:34,519
Speaker 8: about sort of about homophobia and sexism, and it's like, yeah, man,

2068
01:53:34,560 --> 01:53:36,760
Speaker 8: those fucking children in their school bosses were Muslim to

2069
01:53:37,080 --> 01:53:37,800
Speaker 8: like fuck you.

2070
01:53:38,680 --> 01:53:42,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, the people in Bahrain are Muslim too. Regularly the

2071
01:53:42,160 --> 01:53:44,519
Speaker 4: people who yeah, bodies are all over the streets because

2072
01:53:44,520 --> 01:53:46,760
Speaker 4: they asked for a chance to have some say and

2073
01:53:46,800 --> 01:53:48,800
Speaker 4: how the country was run like that, there's just you

2074
01:53:48,800 --> 01:53:49,519
Speaker 4: don't get to do that.

2075
01:53:49,800 --> 01:53:51,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, so this has been nic could happen here?

2076
01:53:51,520 --> 01:53:53,800
Speaker 8: Fuck every single one of the scenes that's fucking doing

2077
01:53:53,840 --> 01:53:55,200
Speaker 8: this shit fucking call.

2078
01:53:55,320 --> 01:54:11,120
Speaker 9: Yeah all right, hello, welcome to the podcast It could

2079
01:54:11,160 --> 01:54:11,639
Speaker 9: happen here.

2080
01:54:12,200 --> 01:54:16,800
Speaker 4: Podcasts for me and Cheren talk about vegetables or terrible things,

2081
01:54:16,840 --> 01:54:19,880
Speaker 4: depending on the week. It's me, it's uine and today

2082
01:54:19,880 --> 01:54:23,200
Speaker 4: it's a terrible thing. It's not a vegetable or a

2083
01:54:23,200 --> 01:54:26,160
Speaker 4: cea animal. How are you Cherene, how are you doing?

2084
01:54:26,720 --> 01:54:29,320
Speaker 3: I'm good. That's honestly a great premise just for a

2085
01:54:29,320 --> 01:54:33,240
Speaker 3: show in general, Like we talk about either food or

2086
01:54:33,240 --> 01:54:34,000
Speaker 3: something terrible.

2087
01:54:34,400 --> 01:54:37,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, like and you never know, you know, Yeah, it's

2088
01:54:37,440 --> 01:54:39,919
Speaker 4: just in your playlist. And then is it a fucking artichoke?

2089
01:54:40,040 --> 01:54:41,720
Speaker 4: Is it genocide? You don't know.

2090
01:54:41,960 --> 01:54:42,760
Speaker 3: You have to find out.

2091
01:54:43,560 --> 01:54:45,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, the only way is by listening.

2092
01:54:45,280 --> 01:54:47,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, but Hi, I'm good, Thanks for having me.

2093
01:54:48,200 --> 01:54:50,880
Speaker 4: Good. I'm glad to hear it. Sreen. So, what I

2094
01:54:50,920 --> 01:54:54,760
Speaker 4: wanted to talk about today is what is happening in Turkey?

2095
01:54:54,840 --> 01:54:58,280
Speaker 4: Why are they like this? What is going on? Specifically?

2096
01:54:58,320 --> 01:55:02,400
Speaker 4: I want to talk about some these attacks on Syrian

2097
01:55:02,480 --> 01:55:05,200
Speaker 4: refugees in Turkey. The people may have seen, they may

2098
01:55:05,240 --> 01:55:08,400
Speaker 4: not have seen. I see them in my timeline, but

2099
01:55:08,480 --> 01:55:11,280
Speaker 4: maybe that's because of the people I follow. I think.

2100
01:55:11,480 --> 01:55:16,240
Speaker 4: To start off with, to understand what's happening in Turkey,

2101
01:55:16,280 --> 01:55:19,600
Speaker 4: you have to understand the relations between Turkey and Syria.

2102
01:55:19,680 --> 01:55:22,840
Speaker 4: Since the Civil War began in Syria, which is more

2103
01:55:22,880 --> 01:55:26,480
Speaker 4: than a decade ago now, thirteen odd years ago. So

2104
01:55:26,480 --> 01:55:29,920
Speaker 4: from the start of the war, Turkey has backed anti

2105
01:55:29,960 --> 01:55:33,480
Speaker 4: a SAD factions, right, so those are the rebels in Syria.

2106
01:55:33,960 --> 01:55:35,800
Speaker 4: This is a big change. In two thousand and eight,

2107
01:55:36,280 --> 01:55:41,200
Speaker 4: A Sadden Herdigan's family went on holiday together really Yeah. Yeah,

2108
01:55:41,240 --> 01:55:43,760
Speaker 4: they went into southern Turkey and a little little beach

2109
01:55:43,760 --> 01:55:44,560
Speaker 4: holiday together.

2110
01:55:45,600 --> 01:55:46,160
Speaker 3: Disturbing.

2111
01:55:46,320 --> 01:55:50,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, what a time. Yeah, just to do to

2112
01:55:50,080 --> 01:55:54,240
Speaker 4: rarking by the beach. But unfortunately they're no longer holiday together.

2113
01:55:54,240 --> 01:55:57,440
Speaker 4: They might be holding again soon, as we'll see.

2114
01:55:57,600 --> 01:55:58,720
Speaker 3: Yeah that's what it sounds like.

2115
01:55:59,320 --> 01:56:04,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, they are becoming tight again, and again referenced their

2116
01:56:04,280 --> 01:56:08,480
Speaker 4: family holiday in his most recent comments on really yeah,

2117
01:56:08,920 --> 01:56:10,680
Speaker 4: it's like our relations have been familial.

2118
01:56:10,840 --> 01:56:11,680
Speaker 5: I like that at all.

2119
01:56:12,960 --> 01:56:15,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you know what'd be going on holiday with

2120
01:56:15,560 --> 01:56:19,839
Speaker 4: Marshal Lasad. Just as a moral principle, I think.

2121
01:56:19,280 --> 01:56:22,000
Speaker 3: It's just crazy to be because you're right they I

2122
01:56:22,040 --> 01:56:26,720
Speaker 3: feel like we're very open about supporting the anti Assad forces,

2123
01:56:26,880 --> 01:56:29,800
Speaker 3: and so to be like suddenly, why can't we have

2124
01:56:29,880 --> 01:56:33,280
Speaker 3: diplomatic friendliness, Like come on, it's just like the weirdest

2125
01:56:33,440 --> 01:56:34,240
Speaker 3: plot to us to be.

2126
01:56:34,800 --> 01:56:36,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it comes

2127
01:56:36,440 --> 01:56:39,240
Speaker 4: from anti migrant sentiment in Turkey, which I want to

2128
01:56:39,240 --> 01:56:42,919
Speaker 4: get into. I think it's so like we are witnessing

2129
01:56:43,240 --> 01:56:46,400
Speaker 4: this global crackdown on migration on refugees. We see it

2130
01:56:46,440 --> 01:56:49,160
Speaker 4: in Europe, we see it here at southern border, we

2131
01:56:49,200 --> 01:56:52,560
Speaker 4: see it here in Turkey, We're seeing it in North Africa.

2132
01:56:52,600 --> 01:56:55,720
Speaker 4: We're seeing it all over. So this is hasn't always

2133
01:56:55,720 --> 01:56:57,200
Speaker 4: been a case like at the start of the war,

2134
01:56:57,320 --> 01:57:00,280
Speaker 4: Turkey Thrope and it's bordereds to s Syrian refugees, right,

2135
01:57:00,360 --> 01:57:04,320
Speaker 4: They built camps to house them. They were strong backers

2136
01:57:04,360 --> 01:57:07,920
Speaker 4: of the revolution. They spent forty million dollars carrying for

2137
01:57:08,000 --> 01:57:12,040
Speaker 4: their refugees. The Nationally Intelligence Organization, the MIT, actually trained

2138
01:57:12,080 --> 01:57:15,760
Speaker 4: parts of the FSA, the Free Syrian Army, and then

2139
01:57:15,880 --> 01:57:20,440
Speaker 4: later they brought together the SNA. There will be many acronyms, right,

2140
01:57:20,560 --> 01:57:23,280
Speaker 4: like every civil war loves a three letter acronym. And

2141
01:57:23,400 --> 01:57:24,680
Speaker 4: the Syrian War is no different.

2142
01:57:24,800 --> 01:57:26,840
Speaker 3: But they were really open. They were really public about

2143
01:57:26,880 --> 01:57:31,360
Speaker 3: being like we welcomed the refugees. I remember that was like,

2144
01:57:32,080 --> 01:57:34,480
Speaker 3: I don't know, as a Syrian, I was like, oh,

2145
01:57:34,480 --> 01:57:37,040
Speaker 3: that's nice.

2146
01:57:38,200 --> 01:57:39,800
Speaker 4: It was nice, nice thing to do.

2147
01:57:40,080 --> 01:57:42,120
Speaker 3: Like I mean, like at the time, no one gave

2148
01:57:42,160 --> 01:57:43,880
Speaker 3: a shit for the most part. So to have like

2149
01:57:43,920 --> 01:57:46,880
Speaker 3: a country out loud be like we welcome the refugees,

2150
01:57:47,000 --> 01:57:50,880
Speaker 3: come over here will help. And now they have the

2151
01:57:51,000 --> 01:57:54,640
Speaker 3: largest population of Syrian refugees like in the world. I

2152
01:57:54,680 --> 01:57:57,040
Speaker 3: don't know if you're gonna mention this coming up, but

2153
01:57:57,080 --> 01:57:59,720
Speaker 3: I feel like the only thing that changed, not the

2154
01:57:59,760 --> 01:58:01,160
Speaker 3: only I think one of the only things. The main

2155
01:58:01,200 --> 01:58:03,440
Speaker 3: thing that changed is that no one in Turkey thought

2156
01:58:03,440 --> 01:58:04,400
Speaker 3: it would last as long.

2157
01:58:04,880 --> 01:58:06,240
Speaker 4: Yeah no, yeah, absolutely not.

2158
01:58:06,560 --> 01:58:06,760
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2159
01:58:06,960 --> 01:58:09,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll get into that because the nature of their

2160
01:58:09,200 --> 01:58:13,440
Speaker 4: legal residence there is very temporary. Yeah, okay. So Turkey

2161
01:58:13,480 --> 01:58:16,000
Speaker 4: has used the SNA as Syrian National Army right, which

2162
01:58:16,040 --> 01:58:19,680
Speaker 4: is it's more explicitly Turkish backed faction, as a directly

2163
01:58:19,760 --> 01:58:22,680
Speaker 4: linked proxy force. They've used it in their operations against

2164
01:58:22,680 --> 01:58:27,040
Speaker 4: the STF. So the Syrian Democratic Forces another acronym for you,

2165
01:58:27,320 --> 01:58:31,160
Speaker 4: the organization which includes the Yepige right their YPG, the

2166
01:58:31,240 --> 01:58:35,640
Speaker 4: YPG the other elements of the military forces of the

2167
01:58:35,680 --> 01:58:40,080
Speaker 4: Autonomous Areas North and East Syria, sometimes called RISHABA. They

2168
01:58:40,160 --> 01:58:43,800
Speaker 4: have also used the SNA outside of Syria, right in Azerbaijan,

2169
01:58:43,880 --> 01:58:47,480
Speaker 4: Libya and Nizier like just as a private military right

2170
01:58:47,560 --> 01:58:50,160
Speaker 4: as a mercenary army more or less, and you'll you'll

2171
01:58:50,160 --> 01:58:53,640
Speaker 4: hear them refer to sometimes as mercenaries, certainly like when

2172
01:58:53,640 --> 01:58:55,440
Speaker 4: they're being used outside of Syria, it's hard to argue

2173
01:58:55,440 --> 01:58:58,280
Speaker 4: that they're not, and other times, like when they're being

2174
01:58:58,320 --> 01:59:00,879
Speaker 4: used in Syria. A lot of these folks were previously

2175
01:59:00,880 --> 01:59:03,440
Speaker 4: parts of other groups that have kind of been repackaged

2176
01:59:03,480 --> 01:59:06,320
Speaker 4: and bundled up together by Turkey, and there are still

2177
01:59:06,320 --> 01:59:12,680
Speaker 4: many factions within these broadly speaking Turkish supported Arab rebel

2178
01:59:12,720 --> 01:59:15,440
Speaker 4: forces in Syria. There are some Kurdish groups as well,

2179
01:59:15,480 --> 01:59:18,560
Speaker 4: but not so many, and there are some Turkic groups

2180
01:59:18,560 --> 01:59:21,240
Speaker 4: that are not Arab. So these property forces are really

2181
01:59:21,320 --> 01:59:24,440
Speaker 4: vital to the Turkey strategy in Syria. I wanted to

2182
01:59:24,480 --> 01:59:28,440
Speaker 4: get a sense of how numerous the redirected or re

2183
01:59:28,440 --> 01:59:31,240
Speaker 4: recruited Jahadis were from other groups, so I reached out

2184
01:59:31,240 --> 01:59:35,280
Speaker 4: to Zagros Hiwa. People are not familiar with Zagros. He

2185
01:59:35,400 --> 01:59:39,640
Speaker 4: is a spokesperson of the Kurdistan Communities Union's Foreign Relations Commission.

2186
01:59:39,960 --> 01:59:42,520
Speaker 4: If you're not familiar with the Kurdistan Communities Union, it's

2187
01:59:42,560 --> 01:59:47,080
Speaker 4: the umbrella organization for the several democratic confederalist political parties North, South,

2188
01:59:47,160 --> 01:59:50,520
Speaker 4: East and West Kurdistan which are inspired by the ideology

2189
01:59:50,560 --> 01:59:52,840
Speaker 4: of Abdullah Asient. So we're going to hear more from

2190
01:59:52,920 --> 01:59:56,040
Speaker 4: Zagoros next week. I have a number of questions about

2191
01:59:56,080 --> 01:59:59,440
Speaker 4: the ongoing Turkish bombing there in the in the Kandil

2192
01:59:59,520 --> 02:00:03,040
Speaker 4: Mountains in the in the north of the Kurdistan Autonomous

2193
02:00:03,040 --> 02:00:04,960
Speaker 4: Region of Iraq. But we're going to drop a little

2194
02:00:05,000 --> 02:00:08,320
Speaker 4: quote here where he talks about the interactions at the

2195
02:00:08,360 --> 02:00:10,800
Speaker 4: SDF and the EPIGAY and the other other units Right

2196
02:00:10,920 --> 02:00:15,840
Speaker 4: hPG have had with the Turkish Army's Arab Syrian elements.

2197
02:00:16,120 --> 02:00:20,280
Speaker 4: When you hear Zagros here talking about DASH, what he's

2198
02:00:20,280 --> 02:00:23,400
Speaker 4: talking about is the so called Islamic State, the Islamic

2199
02:00:23,440 --> 02:00:25,800
Speaker 4: State of Iraq and the levant Right. It's just the

2200
02:00:25,840 --> 02:00:29,160
Speaker 4: Arabic acronym of the same organization. So if you went

2201
02:00:29,200 --> 02:00:30,400
Speaker 4: aware that's what he's talking.

2202
02:00:30,240 --> 02:00:36,640
Speaker 10: About, invading Turkish Army is that many Jajaradists have been

2203
02:00:37,800 --> 02:00:43,360
Speaker 10: incorporated into the Turkish Army. They are acting as units

2204
02:00:45,080 --> 02:00:48,360
Speaker 10: with the Turkish or separate units with the Turkish Army.

2205
02:00:48,400 --> 02:00:52,080
Speaker 10: They have been embedded with with the with natal second

2206
02:00:52,240 --> 02:00:56,839
Speaker 10: largest army. I can say these Jajadists are x DAJ members,

2207
02:00:56,920 --> 02:01:00,640
Speaker 10: ex Nostra Front members, x Alpaider members. They are from

2208
02:01:00,680 --> 02:01:06,520
Speaker 10: many nationalities, according to pu K officials Patriotic Union of

2209
02:01:06,640 --> 02:01:11,520
Speaker 10: Kdistan officials, they say that they have learned the names

2210
02:01:11,560 --> 02:01:15,680
Speaker 10: of three hundreds of these DASH members in the Turkish

2211
02:01:15,760 --> 02:01:17,960
Speaker 10: Army ranks.

2212
02:01:18,560 --> 02:01:20,600
Speaker 5: So also.

2213
02:01:21,800 --> 02:01:28,920
Speaker 10: Underground Kedystan Freedom guerrillas themselves have observations about the inclusion

2214
02:01:29,560 --> 02:01:36,040
Speaker 10: of jihadist members in the ranks of the Turkish Army

2215
02:01:36,880 --> 02:01:42,200
Speaker 10: and many of the close range classes blanket point classes

2216
02:01:42,240 --> 02:01:48,080
Speaker 10: with the Turkish Army. Kurdistan Freedom Guerrillas here some of

2217
02:01:48,120 --> 02:01:51,240
Speaker 10: the soldiers speaking Arabic, shouting.

2218
02:01:52,560 --> 02:01:54,800
Speaker 1: Yearning in Arabic.

2219
02:01:55,760 --> 02:01:59,320
Speaker 4: To understand further what's going on in Turkey, I think

2220
02:01:59,440 --> 02:02:03,440
Speaker 4: you need to understand the phenomenon of Turkish ultra nationalism

2221
02:02:03,480 --> 02:02:07,160
Speaker 4: and social Darwinism. This is not just endemic in Turkey,

2222
02:02:07,240 --> 02:02:10,040
Speaker 4: but also in European countries. With a large Turkish diaspora.

2223
02:02:11,000 --> 02:02:13,560
Speaker 4: The most extreme and concerning example of this is a

2224
02:02:13,600 --> 02:02:16,600
Speaker 4: group called the Gray Wolves. The Gray Wolves are the

2225
02:02:16,600 --> 02:02:19,640
Speaker 4: military street wing of the Nationalist Movement Party in Turkey

2226
02:02:20,080 --> 02:02:22,160
Speaker 4: and they've been involved in political violence there since the

2227
02:02:22,200 --> 02:02:28,360
Speaker 4: nineteen sixties, with their primary target being curved Greeks, Alavis, Arabs, Christians,

2228
02:02:28,440 --> 02:02:33,200
Speaker 4: Jews and Armenians. These are all minority ethnic groups, I guess.

2229
02:02:33,400 --> 02:02:35,960
Speaker 4: To understand this further, you have to be able to

2230
02:02:35,960 --> 02:02:41,640
Speaker 4: differentiate between race, state, and nation. Right, which is getting

2231
02:02:41,640 --> 02:02:44,000
Speaker 4: into things that I lecture about. But the idea of

2232
02:02:44,000 --> 02:02:48,840
Speaker 4: a race is effective biological link, right, This isn't born

2233
02:02:48,920 --> 02:02:53,280
Speaker 4: out necessarily, but the idea of a shared biology. The

2234
02:02:53,520 --> 02:02:56,680
Speaker 4: idea of a nation. A nation is an imagined community, right,

2235
02:02:56,760 --> 02:03:00,320
Speaker 4: which are can have many races. It could have a

2236
02:03:00,400 --> 02:03:03,840
Speaker 4: state aligned to it or not. Right, So the Turkish

2237
02:03:04,240 --> 02:03:07,160
Speaker 4: nation doesn't necessarily align with the Turkish state. There are

2238
02:03:07,200 --> 02:03:10,040
Speaker 4: like other groups within the Turkish state. You have Turkish citizenship,

2239
02:03:10,040 --> 02:03:13,120
Speaker 4: but do not see themselves as nationally or ethnically Turkish.

2240
02:03:13,640 --> 02:03:18,240
Speaker 4: For what the gray Wolves believe is the superiority of

2241
02:03:18,240 --> 02:03:21,840
Speaker 4: a Turkish race, and they strive for a monoethnic Sunni

2242
02:03:21,920 --> 02:03:26,920
Speaker 4: Islamic Turkish nation. They're pan Turkic organizations, so they want

2243
02:03:26,960 --> 02:03:30,120
Speaker 4: to join together all the Turkic peoples in one kind

2244
02:03:30,120 --> 02:03:34,120
Speaker 4: of renewed Turkish empire. Right after clap to the Soviet Union,

2245
02:03:34,520 --> 02:03:38,240
Speaker 4: they called for this revived empire that would unite Turkic people.

2246
02:03:38,800 --> 02:03:42,760
Speaker 4: They like many of these extremely right wing violent organizations

2247
02:03:42,760 --> 02:03:45,800
Speaker 4: have their roots in anti communism right in the Cold

2248
02:03:45,800 --> 02:03:48,920
Speaker 4: War and specifically and something called Operation Gladio, which was

2249
02:03:48,960 --> 02:03:52,760
Speaker 4: a sort of anti communist guerrilla training supported by the

2250
02:03:52,800 --> 02:03:58,440
Speaker 4: CIA and other groups. They began as government condoned and

2251
02:03:58,480 --> 02:04:01,360
Speaker 4: a sort of sort of deny government forced to use

2252
02:04:01,400 --> 02:04:04,560
Speaker 4: against the left right. I'm not going to be able,

2253
02:04:04,680 --> 02:04:06,280
Speaker 4: like I can't detil every think the Gray Wolves are down,

2254
02:04:06,360 --> 02:04:08,040
Speaker 4: and this isn't what that episode it's about. I do

2255
02:04:08,120 --> 02:04:12,040
Speaker 4: want to explain one incident. It's maybe one of the

2256
02:04:12,080 --> 02:04:14,400
Speaker 4: most heenous things that they're known for, and it's called

2257
02:04:14,440 --> 02:04:17,480
Speaker 4: the Marush massacre. Are you familiar with this? Sharene?

2258
02:04:17,680 --> 02:04:18,240
Speaker 3: No, I'm not.

2259
02:04:18,280 --> 02:04:21,520
Speaker 4: Actually, Okay, a little little history for you. So in

2260
02:04:21,520 --> 02:04:25,720
Speaker 4: December nineteen seventy eight in Karaman Mirash Karaman Marash in Mirash,

2261
02:04:25,760 --> 02:04:29,360
Speaker 4: you'll hear those two terms used both right, like Karaman

2262
02:04:29,440 --> 02:04:31,560
Speaker 4: I think means hero in Turkish. There was a battle

2263
02:04:31,600 --> 02:04:34,760
Speaker 4: there in the early part of twentieth century. I think

2264
02:04:34,760 --> 02:04:36,640
Speaker 4: it was in the First World War, and so they

2265
02:04:36,640 --> 02:04:39,520
Speaker 4: added like hero to the start of the town. But

2266
02:04:39,640 --> 02:04:42,480
Speaker 4: Alavi people don't tend to use that when they talk

2267
02:04:42,480 --> 02:04:44,920
Speaker 4: about the massacre because it seems a little weird to

2268
02:04:45,240 --> 02:04:48,960
Speaker 4: be like a great town where this horrible massare occurred.

2269
02:04:49,360 --> 02:04:52,640
Speaker 4: So you're here both it's mrs, but s has a

2270
02:04:52,640 --> 02:04:56,840
Speaker 4: little diacritical mark, so it's ah noise. The massacre starts

2271
02:04:56,840 --> 02:04:59,440
Speaker 4: in seven ninety seventy eight, when an anti Soviet movie

2272
02:04:59,800 --> 02:05:01,840
Speaker 4: is being shown in a movie theater in town and

2273
02:05:01,880 --> 02:05:05,000
Speaker 4: someone throws a bomb into the theater. Right Communist brouts

2274
02:05:05,040 --> 02:05:07,160
Speaker 4: were blamed for this. It's a little unclear if it

2275
02:05:07,200 --> 02:05:10,040
Speaker 4: really was them or someone who who wanted to start

2276
02:05:10,120 --> 02:05:13,560
Speaker 4: some drama by pretending to be them, if that makes sense, right,

2277
02:05:14,440 --> 02:05:17,280
Speaker 4: So many Alavi's Alavis are a group of kurd Are

2278
02:05:17,280 --> 02:05:18,200
Speaker 4: you familiar, Sharen?

2279
02:05:19,000 --> 02:05:22,120
Speaker 3: I was actually just trying to rhy myself because I'm

2280
02:05:22,120 --> 02:05:25,160
Speaker 3: really not familiar with this sect because I know it's

2281
02:05:25,480 --> 02:05:28,520
Speaker 3: completely separate from Sunni Islam. Is shea Islam? Is it

2282
02:05:28,560 --> 02:05:31,560
Speaker 3: more like Sufiism. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I thought.

2283
02:05:31,840 --> 02:05:37,160
Speaker 4: They're like a twelve Sufiist with syncretic elements from like

2284
02:05:37,400 --> 02:05:39,680
Speaker 4: uh like veneration of nature, and they have this sort

2285
02:05:39,720 --> 02:05:42,440
Speaker 4: of idea of sainthood. Right. I probably used a lot

2286
02:05:42,480 --> 02:05:44,320
Speaker 4: of words that people aren't super familiar with. So can

2287
02:05:44,360 --> 02:05:48,640
Speaker 4: you explain to Sufism and then Sunni and Shia maybe.

2288
02:05:48,680 --> 02:05:51,600
Speaker 3: So maybe you're familiar with the two different main sects

2289
02:05:51,640 --> 02:05:54,640
Speaker 3: of Islam, which are Sunni and Shira. The main difference

2290
02:05:54,920 --> 02:05:57,120
Speaker 3: between the two, if you want to really boil it down,

2291
02:05:57,440 --> 02:06:01,320
Speaker 3: is who they believe these cessor should have been to

2292
02:06:01,520 --> 02:06:07,400
Speaker 3: the prophet Muhammadu. The shi has believe that his cousin

2293
02:06:07,440 --> 02:06:10,000
Speaker 3: and his son in law Aidi should have been the successor,

2294
02:06:10,200 --> 02:06:13,280
Speaker 3: versus the Sunnis don't believe he needed a successor at all,

2295
02:06:13,400 --> 02:06:16,080
Speaker 3: and it was more just like passing down his teachings.

2296
02:06:16,640 --> 02:06:18,240
Speaker 3: There's a lot of history behind that, and there's a

2297
02:06:18,240 --> 02:06:21,920
Speaker 3: lot of drama and violence, but that's like the most

2298
02:06:21,960 --> 02:06:23,720
Speaker 3: simple way to put it, and it kind of grew

2299
02:06:23,760 --> 02:06:28,800
Speaker 3: from there. The Sufism sect, on the other hand, is

2300
02:06:28,800 --> 02:06:32,760
Speaker 3: a little different. It's described as a contemplative school of Islam.

2301
02:06:32,760 --> 02:06:36,839
Speaker 3: That aims to develop an individual's consciousness of God through chanting,

2302
02:06:37,000 --> 02:06:40,960
Speaker 3: recitation of litanies, music, and physical movement. Maybe you know

2303
02:06:41,280 --> 02:06:45,960
Speaker 3: or you've seen the Sufi like whirling dervishes. It's basically

2304
02:06:45,960 --> 02:06:49,200
Speaker 3: a form of like physical active meditation for them. So

2305
02:06:49,240 --> 02:06:53,000
Speaker 3: it definitely differs from both Sunni and Sushia Islam. It's

2306
02:06:53,040 --> 02:06:55,640
Speaker 3: more in a way spiritual. Is that is that a

2307
02:06:55,680 --> 02:06:56,320
Speaker 3: decent summary?

2308
02:06:57,240 --> 02:06:59,480
Speaker 4: Not for me? Yeah, I think I think you've done

2309
02:06:59,520 --> 02:07:02,839
Speaker 4: a great job. And Sufi's are like broadly Sunny, I guess,

2310
02:07:02,920 --> 02:07:08,040
Speaker 4: and Alavites are like there are twelves and seven is

2311
02:07:08,080 --> 02:07:10,000
Speaker 4: which is like to do with the amount of people

2312
02:07:10,040 --> 02:07:13,200
Speaker 4: you think are the the imam's successes to Ali, which

2313
02:07:13,200 --> 02:07:14,800
Speaker 4: we don't need to go into I don't think a

2314
02:07:14,880 --> 02:07:17,880
Speaker 4: very great depth, but I guess Alavites would would fall

2315
02:07:17,920 --> 02:07:22,040
Speaker 4: into the twelve a camp in not traditional twelve Shia.

2316
02:07:22,760 --> 02:07:25,440
Speaker 3: That's what the V you're saying, the V al yes.

2317
02:07:25,440 --> 02:07:28,600
Speaker 4: As opposed to Ala whites, right, another ship al whites

2318
02:07:28,720 --> 02:07:29,760
Speaker 4: is very different?

2319
02:07:30,040 --> 02:07:32,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, Like I feel like it's very confusing because

2320
02:07:32,480 --> 02:07:36,720
Speaker 3: they sound so similar. But Ala whites they're they're considered

2321
02:07:36,760 --> 02:07:41,840
Speaker 3: disbelievers by the classical like Sunny and Shia theologies. They're

2322
02:07:42,160 --> 02:07:45,880
Speaker 3: their own separate group. It's like a religious sect that

2323
02:07:45,920 --> 02:07:49,400
Speaker 3: like kind of splintered off from early Shi'ahism in the

2324
02:07:49,480 --> 02:07:50,640
Speaker 3: ninth century.

2325
02:07:50,800 --> 02:07:54,440
Speaker 4: And they are the sector which the Asad family yes belongs,

2326
02:07:54,840 --> 02:07:59,480
Speaker 4: and many other military families in Bathistsiria belonged, right.

2327
02:08:00,120 --> 02:08:04,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, when the Bathist party like led by half said

2328
02:08:04,920 --> 02:08:08,760
Speaker 3: Bashar's dad, when he took power, the Alo Whites in

2329
02:08:08,840 --> 02:08:11,120
Speaker 3: the military sect or the Alo white sect in the

2330
02:08:11,160 --> 02:08:14,280
Speaker 3: military were really supportive of that regime. And I feel

2331
02:08:14,280 --> 02:08:16,560
Speaker 3: like it's a big reason why he gained popularity and

2332
02:08:16,800 --> 02:08:20,400
Speaker 3: was able to like overthrow the government.

2333
02:08:21,360 --> 02:08:24,920
Speaker 4: Yeah. But yeah, Okay, so that's a little breakdown of Islam.

2334
02:08:26,120 --> 02:08:26,920
Speaker 4: I know, it's good.

2335
02:08:27,200 --> 02:08:30,240
Speaker 3: There's just so much like like little details that I

2336
02:08:30,280 --> 02:08:33,080
Speaker 3: know I will miss, and it's just it's so much

2337
02:08:33,120 --> 02:08:37,920
Speaker 3: more complicated. But yeah, there's just many sects that stem

2338
02:08:38,000 --> 02:08:41,360
Speaker 3: all from the one religious book of the Quran, and

2339
02:08:41,400 --> 02:08:44,600
Speaker 3: then just shit happens. I don't know what else is.

2340
02:08:46,200 --> 02:08:48,160
Speaker 4: Well, maybe we'll explain it in another day for people

2341
02:08:48,200 --> 02:08:50,080
Speaker 4: because they do think like I went to school at

2342
02:08:50,080 --> 02:08:52,320
Speaker 4: a very woke time in the United Kingdom's history where

2343
02:08:52,360 --> 02:08:55,600
Speaker 4: you could do Islam as your like religious studies. Wait

2344
02:08:55,680 --> 02:09:01,000
Speaker 4: really yeah, yeah, it's because Tony Blair in the wokness crazy. Yeah, No,

2345
02:09:01,040 --> 02:09:02,440
Speaker 4: it's cool, it's really good. I land a lot.

2346
02:09:03,200 --> 02:09:05,680
Speaker 3: Well, so what did what did I miss? You tell me?

2347
02:09:05,840 --> 02:09:08,600
Speaker 4: No, I'm not, I'm not. I'm not here to fucking

2348
02:09:09,320 --> 02:09:13,680
Speaker 4: I'm serious. I am absolutely not here to tell you

2349
02:09:13,720 --> 02:09:15,600
Speaker 4: what you go right around. I think you did an

2350
02:09:15,640 --> 02:09:18,640
Speaker 4: excellent job. Shia comes from like the party of Ali, right,

2351
02:09:18,640 --> 02:09:20,000
Speaker 4: That's what the word means.

2352
02:09:20,000 --> 02:09:23,400
Speaker 3: And I think that's the main reason why Sufism is

2353
02:09:23,440 --> 02:09:25,800
Speaker 3: more associated with Sunni Islam. F I'm being honest, because

2354
02:09:25,920 --> 02:09:28,600
Speaker 3: that's like the main tenet of being Shia is that

2355
02:09:28,680 --> 02:09:31,560
Speaker 3: you believe that Ali was the successor. And so I

2356
02:09:31,560 --> 02:09:34,200
Speaker 3: think anything that is not that usually is more under

2357
02:09:34,200 --> 02:09:35,080
Speaker 3: the Sunni umbrella.

2358
02:09:36,080 --> 02:09:38,640
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think sometimes you'll see it like as a

2359
02:09:38,680 --> 02:09:41,760
Speaker 4: third like Sufism is his own thing. Yeah, Germany, like

2360
02:09:41,880 --> 02:09:44,840
Speaker 4: more Muslims in the world are Sunni than Shiah. I'm

2361
02:09:44,880 --> 02:09:46,480
Speaker 4: not going to do a thing that people do where

2362
02:09:46,480 --> 02:09:48,840
Speaker 4: they go around naming the governments which are one or another,

2363
02:09:48,960 --> 02:09:53,000
Speaker 4: and like, I don't think that's very useful. So let's

2364
02:09:53,000 --> 02:09:56,120
Speaker 4: go back to nineteen seventy eight in Marash right these

2365
02:09:56,480 --> 02:10:00,440
Speaker 4: Alavis for reasons that we have just explained up as received.

2366
02:10:00,760 --> 02:10:04,240
Speaker 4: A they are Kurdish right, so they're not Turkic, and

2367
02:10:04,480 --> 02:10:08,760
Speaker 4: B they are perceived to be heretical by people with

2368
02:10:09,120 --> 02:10:11,520
Speaker 4: a more conventional Sunni Islam or some people, I should

2369
02:10:11,560 --> 02:10:15,160
Speaker 4: say so. The day after this bomb, guys of a

2370
02:10:15,200 --> 02:10:18,800
Speaker 4: left wing cafe in town is bombed and two leftist

2371
02:10:19,040 --> 02:10:22,360
Speaker 4: teachers are murdered on their way home from school. Later,

2372
02:10:22,560 --> 02:10:26,839
Speaker 4: at their funeral it's attacked by a mob of Turkish nationalists.

2373
02:10:26,920 --> 02:10:31,640
Speaker 4: Right later that week, exes start appearing on the doors

2374
02:10:31,720 --> 02:10:34,880
Speaker 4: of the Alavi homes in this area of town, which

2375
02:10:34,920 --> 02:10:39,200
Speaker 4: is predominantly Alavi right. They made announcements to the mosques

2376
02:10:39,440 --> 02:10:42,200
Speaker 4: saying that communists and Alavis are burning your mosques. You

2377
02:10:42,200 --> 02:10:44,960
Speaker 4: should attack them and kill them well. And on the

2378
02:10:44,960 --> 02:10:48,360
Speaker 4: twenty thirty December, crowd stoked buying comprised of the gray

2379
02:10:48,360 --> 02:10:52,080
Speaker 4: Wolves rampaid through all the neighborhoods. Children, women and men

2380
02:10:52,120 --> 02:10:53,960
Speaker 4: were murdered in their homes and their bodies were thrown

2381
02:10:54,000 --> 02:10:57,320
Speaker 4: in the street. Women were raped, an injured people removed

2382
02:10:57,320 --> 02:11:01,160
Speaker 4: from the hospital beds and murdered were burned alive in

2383
02:11:01,160 --> 02:11:05,480
Speaker 4: the furnaces of their own homes. Estimates of the amount

2384
02:11:05,560 --> 02:11:08,360
Speaker 4: of people who were murdered vary from like one hundred

2385
02:11:08,360 --> 02:11:10,800
Speaker 4: and eleven, which is the official government number, to one

2386
02:11:10,880 --> 02:11:13,680
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty which is sort on the British Alaviu society.

2387
02:11:14,480 --> 02:11:17,440
Speaker 4: Five hundred and fifty something houses were burned to destroy

2388
02:11:17,720 --> 02:11:21,760
Speaker 4: nearly three hundred businesses were looted. Writer as is Tunk

2389
02:11:22,560 --> 02:11:24,840
Speaker 4: my oppointing, I got that wrong. I'll try my best,

2390
02:11:25,040 --> 02:11:29,080
Speaker 4: who's written a book about the massacre, believes that the

2391
02:11:29,120 --> 02:11:32,280
Speaker 4: Alavis were killed for refusing to assimilate to the Turkish

2392
02:11:32,320 --> 02:11:35,200
Speaker 4: language and culture, and he adds occurs to not the

2393
02:11:35,240 --> 02:11:38,160
Speaker 4: only victims of the attack, progressive and leftist Turks who

2394
02:11:38,160 --> 02:11:42,240
Speaker 4: had opposed the official policies of Ancro Wolves included. The

2395
02:11:42,320 --> 02:11:46,040
Speaker 4: trials for this massacre actually continued until nineteen ninety one.

2396
02:11:46,240 --> 02:11:48,640
Speaker 4: So it happened in nineteen seventy eight, right now, it's

2397
02:11:48,640 --> 02:11:51,320
Speaker 4: a long time. A total of eight hundred and four

2398
02:11:51,360 --> 02:11:53,240
Speaker 4: people were put on trial, which kind of shows you

2399
02:11:53,280 --> 02:11:55,960
Speaker 4: the scale of the mob that you have.

2400
02:11:56,560 --> 02:11:58,480
Speaker 3: Was it mostly the gray Wolves?

2401
02:11:58,720 --> 02:12:00,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, So it comes out of the HP, which is

2402
02:12:00,920 --> 02:12:04,120
Speaker 4: this Turkish nationalist party, right and it's generally attributed to

2403
02:12:04,120 --> 02:12:07,600
Speaker 4: the Gray Wolves as like causality. And when you get

2404
02:12:07,640 --> 02:12:10,320
Speaker 4: these massive crowd violence things, it's not like everyone's a

2405
02:12:10,320 --> 02:12:14,080
Speaker 4: card carrying member necessarily. You'll hear people say that they

2406
02:12:14,120 --> 02:12:17,920
Speaker 4: consider there to be like state or organizational complicity beyond it.

2407
02:12:17,920 --> 02:12:20,480
Speaker 4: It wasn't a spontaneous thing, right, and that that's an

2408
02:12:20,480 --> 02:12:24,400
Speaker 4: allegation that's sometimes made. Twenty nine people were sentenced to

2409
02:12:24,480 --> 02:12:27,400
Speaker 4: life in prison for this by nineteen ninety one.

2410
02:12:27,520 --> 02:12:29,480
Speaker 3: Out of eight hundred and four or twenty nine percent.

2411
02:12:29,760 --> 02:12:32,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, and all of them were released in nineteen ninety two. Okay,

2412
02:12:32,560 --> 02:12:35,240
Speaker 4: it's part of an anti terrorism law. Now it's a

2413
02:12:35,240 --> 02:12:37,480
Speaker 4: good time shream. Do you know who will not commute

2414
02:12:37,520 --> 02:12:43,400
Speaker 4: your life sentence? Oh my god, they won't do it.

2415
02:12:43,480 --> 02:12:44,640
Speaker 3: Well, whatever it is.

2416
02:12:44,800 --> 02:12:56,600
Speaker 11: Yeah, all right, we're back.

2417
02:12:57,160 --> 02:13:00,680
Speaker 4: We're moving on from massacres thankfully. So we're talking about

2418
02:13:00,680 --> 02:13:04,080
Speaker 4: the Gray Wolves, right, that's where they come from. Today,

2419
02:13:04,160 --> 02:13:06,920
Speaker 4: the party that they were sort of founded by their

2420
02:13:07,000 --> 02:13:10,760
Speaker 4: MHP is allied with Erligan's party, and they've continued their violence,

2421
02:13:10,800 --> 02:13:13,720
Speaker 4: and particularly they've begun to focus on Kurdish people. Right

2422
02:13:14,080 --> 02:13:16,160
Speaker 4: last year, groups of them in that Diaspa could be

2423
02:13:16,200 --> 02:13:19,120
Speaker 4: found in Belgium attacking Kurds who they found to be

2424
02:13:19,160 --> 02:13:22,520
Speaker 4: celebrating the Kurdish New Year right, celebrating the year often

2425
02:13:22,560 --> 02:13:25,320
Speaker 4: with fire outside. It's pretty fucking easy to see who's

2426
02:13:25,360 --> 02:13:28,000
Speaker 4: doing it right, and they were attacked. You could see

2427
02:13:28,280 --> 02:13:30,240
Speaker 4: videos of this if you scroll far enough back on

2428
02:13:30,280 --> 02:13:32,800
Speaker 4: my Twitter timeline you'll see I've shared some of them.

2429
02:13:32,840 --> 02:13:36,440
Speaker 4: Twenty fifteen, they protested and burned Chinese flags and attacked

2430
02:13:36,480 --> 02:13:40,200
Speaker 4: people who looked Asian, to include Korean folks and folks

2431
02:13:40,240 --> 02:13:43,000
Speaker 4: who certainly were not Chinese, in response to the Chinese

2432
02:13:43,040 --> 02:13:47,200
Speaker 4: government span on Turkic wigas fasting during the month of Ramadan.

2433
02:13:47,800 --> 02:13:50,920
Speaker 4: They also opposed Russia due to its collaboration with a

2434
02:13:51,000 --> 02:13:54,280
Speaker 4: SAD and its attacks on Syrian Turkmen. Some Gray Wolves

2435
02:13:54,280 --> 02:13:57,600
Speaker 4: have gone over to Syria to fight. They're fighting against

2436
02:13:57,640 --> 02:14:01,440
Speaker 4: a SAD right with Turkmen units. I guess perhaps their

2437
02:14:01,640 --> 02:14:05,800
Speaker 4: most famous incident in the war was in twenty fifteen

2438
02:14:05,880 --> 02:14:10,280
Speaker 4: when they shut down a Russian plane was shut down

2439
02:14:10,440 --> 02:14:13,960
Speaker 4: and the pirate parachute out and then they machine gunned

2440
02:14:14,040 --> 02:14:17,200
Speaker 4: him while he was parachuting down. WHOA yeah. So they

2441
02:14:17,400 --> 02:14:20,400
Speaker 4: pretty strongly opposed to the Russian support of the assad rasion.

2442
02:14:20,440 --> 02:14:22,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there are one of the many reasons

2443
02:14:22,720 --> 02:14:25,440
Speaker 3: why I really get frustrated with all these different sects

2444
02:14:25,480 --> 02:14:29,160
Speaker 3: that are like anti Assad, and I am also anti Sad.

2445
02:14:29,240 --> 02:14:32,480
Speaker 3: But then they make it so complicated because they're terrible people,

2446
02:14:32,720 --> 02:14:35,240
Speaker 3: and so it's not just the rebels and these citizens

2447
02:14:35,280 --> 02:14:39,440
Speaker 3: of their own country trying to stand up against their government.

2448
02:14:39,640 --> 02:14:44,920
Speaker 3: It becomes this larger political clusterfuck that gets hard to

2449
02:14:45,000 --> 02:14:47,120
Speaker 3: keep track of, and I think that's why it's gone

2450
02:14:47,160 --> 02:14:49,640
Speaker 3: on for this long. It's not simple. It's not just

2451
02:14:49,720 --> 02:14:55,000
Speaker 3: like government versus people anymore. It's just too many elements.

2452
02:14:54,600 --> 02:14:57,920
Speaker 4: Right that you have people fighting within their revolution and

2453
02:14:58,640 --> 02:15:02,920
Speaker 4: the government constantly exploit those divisions, right. Yeah. So yeah,

2454
02:15:02,960 --> 02:15:05,360
Speaker 4: as I said, the Wolves have significant support in the

2455
02:15:05,360 --> 02:15:07,680
Speaker 4: Turkis Jasper, and they represent the largest right wing movement

2456
02:15:07,680 --> 02:15:11,720
Speaker 4: in Germany, which is pretty impressive when you consider like Germany. Yeah,

2457
02:15:12,360 --> 02:15:15,200
Speaker 4: like Germany is not known for not having much right

2458
02:15:15,200 --> 02:15:17,000
Speaker 4: wing Go ahead, Green, you're looking.

2459
02:15:17,200 --> 02:15:19,720
Speaker 3: I can see there's a question inside you. I'm just okay,

2460
02:15:19,800 --> 02:15:23,360
Speaker 3: because so the Gray Wolves believe in the superiority of

2461
02:15:23,400 --> 02:15:26,960
Speaker 3: the Turkish race, correct, that's correct, And you're saying that

2462
02:15:27,040 --> 02:15:31,480
Speaker 3: they are also big in Germany. I feel like Germany

2463
02:15:32,280 --> 02:15:36,080
Speaker 3: for a time also considered themselves to be the.

2464
02:15:38,400 --> 02:15:42,200
Speaker 4: True Sine. There are some things that they share. Yeah,

2465
02:15:42,240 --> 02:15:44,440
Speaker 4: it does feel a little bit on the nose, doesn't it.

2466
02:15:44,560 --> 02:15:47,200
Speaker 4: Yeah it does, Yeah, it does if it makes a difference.

2467
02:15:47,240 --> 02:15:50,600
Speaker 4: In Austria, the gray wolf salute is banned. Oh whoa,

2468
02:15:50,680 --> 02:15:53,280
Speaker 4: we're going to get into the gray wolf salute. Imagine

2469
02:15:53,320 --> 02:15:55,520
Speaker 4: making a little wolf with your hands. Right, you're right,

2470
02:15:55,600 --> 02:15:59,000
Speaker 4: that's they took that. That's like a shadow puppet. Yes, yeah,

2471
02:15:59,240 --> 02:16:03,920
Speaker 4: really that's not fair. Yeah no, yeah, you're no longer

2472
02:16:03,960 --> 02:16:06,600
Speaker 4: you do. We're gonna learn about the solution. So far,

2473
02:16:06,640 --> 02:16:08,880
Speaker 4: if not familiar, your big finger and your a little

2474
02:16:08,920 --> 02:16:11,320
Speaker 4: pinky finger up in the air. Your other two fingers

2475
02:16:11,360 --> 02:16:12,440
Speaker 4: are touching your thumb.

2476
02:16:12,600 --> 02:16:15,720
Speaker 3: It's almost like the six six to six rocker sign,

2477
02:16:16,040 --> 02:16:19,040
Speaker 3: like yeah, but yeah, it's not it's such a shadow puppet.

2478
02:16:19,200 --> 02:16:20,920
Speaker 3: I feel like I've done that as a kid. That's

2479
02:16:20,960 --> 02:16:24,320
Speaker 3: not fair. They can't take a shadow puppet. Whatever they've

2480
02:16:24,360 --> 02:16:25,120
Speaker 3: done worse.

2481
02:16:25,600 --> 02:16:28,680
Speaker 4: Sharene's hard right youth that is coming out. So if

2482
02:16:28,680 --> 02:16:31,400
Speaker 4: you weren't familiar with the Grabels before and their salute,

2483
02:16:31,440 --> 02:16:35,000
Speaker 4: you might have become familiar with them this week when

2484
02:16:35,040 --> 02:16:37,720
Speaker 4: a Turkish footballer received a two day band for flashing

2485
02:16:37,720 --> 02:16:40,720
Speaker 4: the salute after scoring when the team beat Austria in

2486
02:16:40,800 --> 02:16:44,440
Speaker 4: Euro twenty twenty four. Turkish fans responded to the band

2487
02:16:44,480 --> 02:16:46,959
Speaker 4: by giving the salute on mass at the quarterfinals. So

2488
02:16:47,000 --> 02:16:49,440
Speaker 4: that was the next game, right, Yeah, yeah it was.

2489
02:16:49,879 --> 02:16:53,400
Speaker 4: It was a scene. Like people have obviously drawn the

2490
02:16:53,400 --> 02:16:56,480
Speaker 4: comparison to the previous German movement, which thought one race

2491
02:16:56,560 --> 02:16:58,280
Speaker 4: was better than the other races. Right, but seeing a

2492
02:16:58,280 --> 02:17:03,160
Speaker 4: whole crowd of people doing that disturbing. Yeah, it's concerning.

2493
02:17:03,760 --> 02:17:05,480
Speaker 4: They did it in a game in Germany, so the

2494
02:17:05,480 --> 02:17:08,280
Speaker 4: salute's not banned in Germany, but right. And then the

2495
02:17:08,280 --> 02:17:12,360
Speaker 4: Turkish president Rep. Type Herd Gun postponed his plans to

2496
02:17:12,400 --> 02:17:15,880
Speaker 4: visit asba Jahan and attended the game after the suspension

2497
02:17:15,920 --> 02:17:17,959
Speaker 4: to show his support for the team. Right. He defended

2498
02:17:17,959 --> 02:17:21,720
Speaker 4: the player, saying he'd merely expressed his excitement after scoring.

2499
02:17:22,000 --> 02:17:24,959
Speaker 4: Germany was big mad about this. In the defense, they

2500
02:17:25,000 --> 02:17:28,400
Speaker 4: summoned the Turkish ambassadors to Foreign Ministry to explain what

2501
02:17:28,440 --> 02:17:31,120
Speaker 4: the fuck was going on? And it has resulted in

2502
02:17:31,160 --> 02:17:35,480
Speaker 4: considerable amounts of violence across Europe. Right, we saw in Austria,

2503
02:17:35,560 --> 02:17:37,400
Speaker 4: we saw in Germany, we saw in Belgium where there

2504
02:17:37,480 --> 02:17:41,320
Speaker 4: is a large Turkish and often a large Kurdish yeaspora. Right,

2505
02:17:41,879 --> 02:17:44,720
Speaker 4: because of the tensions between these two groups, which the

2506
02:17:44,760 --> 02:17:48,240
Speaker 4: football has increased, then we saw like street fighting between

2507
02:17:48,280 --> 02:17:52,160
Speaker 4: these two groups in predominantly migrant neighborhoods. Right. But I

2508
02:17:52,160 --> 02:17:54,360
Speaker 4: don't want it's episode to just be about the football

2509
02:17:54,640 --> 02:17:57,600
Speaker 4: or the Turkish participation in the Syrian civil War. I

2510
02:17:57,600 --> 02:18:00,600
Speaker 4: want it to be about what's happening to Syrian refugees

2511
02:18:00,640 --> 02:18:04,959
Speaker 4: in Turkey today. So many Turkish people have come to

2512
02:18:05,000 --> 02:18:08,640
Speaker 4: recent the Syrian refugees who relocated there since the started

2513
02:18:08,680 --> 02:18:12,160
Speaker 4: the war. Estimates range from three point one to three

2514
02:18:12,200 --> 02:18:16,240
Speaker 4: point five. I've seen four million, evidently, Like they have

2515
02:18:16,320 --> 02:18:18,320
Speaker 4: a land border, right, Turkey and Syria. So some of

2516
02:18:18,360 --> 02:18:21,440
Speaker 4: the people crossing will have come without being documented, whereas

2517
02:18:21,480 --> 02:18:24,080
Speaker 4: others will have come in the more formal process and

2518
02:18:24,320 --> 02:18:28,480
Speaker 4: be documented. Right. So whatever, it's millions of refugees, I

2519
02:18:28,480 --> 02:18:33,680
Speaker 4: think that's what matters. They are largely baselessly and evidently

2520
02:18:33,720 --> 02:18:36,880
Speaker 4: baselessly in some cases accused of causing the economic troubles

2521
02:18:36,879 --> 02:18:40,400
Speaker 4: and include low wages and inflation inflation exceeded seventy five

2522
02:18:40,400 --> 02:18:43,720
Speaker 4: percent in Turkey in May. They have also been blamed

2523
02:18:43,720 --> 02:18:46,080
Speaker 4: for the earthquake that happened if every twenty twenty three,

2524
02:18:46,080 --> 02:18:50,000
Speaker 4: which I'm not quite sure how like who or what

2525
02:18:50,760 --> 02:18:53,440
Speaker 4: the process exactly that they're postulating is there.

2526
02:18:54,040 --> 02:18:54,760
Speaker 3: That's crazy.

2527
02:18:55,360 --> 02:18:58,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you just clear things that people generally can't make,

2528
02:18:58,760 --> 02:19:03,400
Speaker 4: earthquakes happen. So across the political spectrum, we've seen support

2529
02:19:03,480 --> 02:19:09,720
Speaker 4: grow for sending these refugees home. In twenty sixteen, Turkey

2530
02:19:09,840 --> 02:19:13,400
Speaker 4: began to accuse the SDF of ethnically cleansing Arab areas

2531
02:19:13,440 --> 02:19:17,680
Speaker 4: in Syria, and the UN refuted these accusations. Right, But

2532
02:19:17,879 --> 02:19:20,680
Speaker 4: in twenty eighteen and twenty nineteen, and in twenty nineteen,

2533
02:19:20,720 --> 02:19:25,080
Speaker 4: with the explicit approval of President Trump, the Turkish military

2534
02:19:25,080 --> 02:19:29,400
Speaker 4: and its proxies attacked the SDF and seized territory inside Syria. Right,

2535
02:19:30,080 --> 02:19:35,520
Speaker 4: Operation Peace Spring and Olive Branch. In these areas, Turkey

2536
02:19:35,560 --> 02:19:37,960
Speaker 4: has attempted to resettle Arab refugees.

2537
02:19:38,040 --> 02:19:38,160
Speaker 9: Right.

2538
02:19:38,200 --> 02:19:42,360
Speaker 4: This is why we can't understand anti Syrian sentiment in

2539
02:19:42,440 --> 02:19:46,360
Speaker 4: Turkey without understanding Turkey's involvement in the Syrian Civil war. Right,

2540
02:19:46,400 --> 02:19:49,000
Speaker 4: it's trying to create what it calls a safe zone,

2541
02:19:49,680 --> 02:19:51,600
Speaker 4: and in this safe zone, it's trying to take the

2542
02:19:51,680 --> 02:19:54,760
Speaker 4: refugees that it's people have decided they don't want and

2543
02:19:54,840 --> 02:19:57,680
Speaker 4: relocate them back into a country which is at war.

2544
02:19:58,360 --> 02:20:01,640
Speaker 4: Turkey has already resettled Syrian rec Fujis in this safe zone.

2545
02:20:01,680 --> 02:20:04,280
Speaker 4: But obviously some of them have been in Turkey for

2546
02:20:04,320 --> 02:20:06,720
Speaker 4: more than a decade. Their children have gone to school

2547
02:20:06,720 --> 02:20:10,120
Speaker 4: in Turkey, they speak Turkish, they've learned a new language,

2548
02:20:10,120 --> 02:20:12,920
Speaker 4: they've learned a new alphabet. Right, they have lives there.

2549
02:20:12,959 --> 02:20:14,879
Speaker 4: So not all of them are just taking the chance

2550
02:20:14,920 --> 02:20:17,320
Speaker 4: to Yeah, let me get straight back to Aleppo. For

2551
02:20:17,400 --> 02:20:20,119
Speaker 4: very obvious reasons, people don't want to go back. Since

2552
02:20:20,120 --> 02:20:22,560
Speaker 4: twenty eighteen, a cost of living crisis in Turkey has

2553
02:20:22,640 --> 02:20:25,359
Speaker 4: been leveraged by the right to stoke anti Syrian sentiment.

2554
02:20:26,080 --> 02:20:28,720
Speaker 4: Research found that in twenty twenty, only twenty three percent

2555
02:20:28,760 --> 02:20:31,879
Speaker 4: of Turkey citizens would accept a Syrian bride or groom

2556
02:20:31,879 --> 02:20:34,640
Speaker 4: into their family or consider having a Syrian as a

2557
02:20:34,640 --> 02:20:37,320
Speaker 4: business partner, and only thirty one percent would want to

2558
02:20:37,320 --> 02:20:39,800
Speaker 4: have the child educated in a class with a Syrian

2559
02:20:39,840 --> 02:20:40,080
Speaker 4: in it.

2560
02:20:40,600 --> 02:20:43,720
Speaker 3: That is yeah, that makes me so fucking mad.

2561
02:20:44,080 --> 02:20:46,480
Speaker 4: One of the things I've come across with is doesn't

2562
02:20:46,520 --> 02:20:48,680
Speaker 4: by any means apply to all Turkish people. I've met

2563
02:20:48,680 --> 02:20:51,400
Speaker 4: some very cool Turkish people who I like very much

2564
02:20:51,520 --> 02:20:56,200
Speaker 4: that people who are ultranationalists in Turkey. America has its

2565
02:20:56,240 --> 02:21:00,000
Speaker 4: fair share of bigots, right generally, they know that it's wrong.

2566
02:21:00,440 --> 02:21:03,440
Speaker 4: They're like, say it with your whole chest of the

2567
02:21:03,560 --> 02:21:07,520
Speaker 4: certainly the anti Syrian sentiment that I've heard expressed online

2568
02:21:07,560 --> 02:21:11,640
Speaker 4: from Turkish people, it's not something that like it's considered shameful.

2569
02:21:11,840 --> 02:21:15,400
Speaker 4: They'll just they'll just fucking say it, which is kind

2570
02:21:15,440 --> 02:21:20,080
Speaker 4: of wild. No, it's scary, Like, yeah, it's very scary.

2571
02:21:20,640 --> 02:21:23,320
Speaker 3: Like if you've raised your child in Turkey and that's

2572
02:21:23,360 --> 02:21:26,039
Speaker 3: the only that's their first language essentially, or that's the

2573
02:21:26,080 --> 02:21:29,080
Speaker 3: only thing they know, that's just one of the most

2574
02:21:29,160 --> 02:21:31,879
Speaker 3: unsafe places for them to be there. Yeah, that's scary

2575
02:21:31,920 --> 02:21:32,520
Speaker 3: and not fair.

2576
02:21:32,640 --> 02:21:34,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, And like I know, I've met lots of Kurdish

2577
02:21:34,840 --> 02:21:37,920
Speaker 4: people who, like, you know, they come in and to

2578
02:21:38,040 --> 02:21:40,760
Speaker 4: the United States right where I'm helping out the border,

2579
02:21:40,760 --> 02:21:43,000
Speaker 4: and I'll greet them in Kurdish. And like I was

2580
02:21:43,000 --> 02:21:44,680
Speaker 4: talking to a guy the other day and mc Curdish

2581
02:21:44,720 --> 02:21:46,160
Speaker 4: is by no means great, but it took a little

2582
02:21:46,160 --> 02:21:49,120
Speaker 4: class and can say some words. And then also a

2583
02:21:49,200 --> 02:21:51,800
Speaker 4: dude walked around the market with me every morning in

2584
02:21:52,160 --> 02:21:55,400
Speaker 4: Cambichelow and just pointed at vegetables and shouted. So I'm

2585
02:21:55,400 --> 02:21:58,320
Speaker 4: pretty pretty good when it comes to like the eggplant spectrum.

2586
02:21:58,959 --> 02:22:03,600
Speaker 4: So I'll greet them in command gee and they will.

2587
02:22:03,640 --> 02:22:05,320
Speaker 4: They only speak Turkish, right, Like, it's not that they

2588
02:22:05,360 --> 02:22:07,160
Speaker 4: could just drop back. And I'm sure that's true for

2589
02:22:07,600 --> 02:22:10,080
Speaker 4: kids who would have grown up speaking Arabic in Syria

2590
02:22:10,280 --> 02:22:11,320
Speaker 4: if they went to school in Turkey.

2591
02:22:11,320 --> 02:22:14,680
Speaker 3: So that's a language, and it's also like not necessarily

2592
02:22:14,720 --> 02:22:17,240
Speaker 3: something they wanted to happen. I think that's something that

2593
02:22:17,360 --> 02:22:20,600
Speaker 3: really frustrates me. It's like Bashar started attacking as people

2594
02:22:20,800 --> 02:22:23,800
Speaker 3: and they needed somewhere to go. Turkey welcome them. Yeah,

2595
02:22:24,000 --> 02:22:26,720
Speaker 3: And when you resettle and you make a home somewhere,

2596
02:22:27,320 --> 02:22:30,360
Speaker 3: it really feels like, especially now in this world, like

2597
02:22:30,400 --> 02:22:32,600
Speaker 3: if you're a refugee, it feels like you're always going

2598
02:22:32,640 --> 02:22:37,039
Speaker 3: to be kind of displaced in one way or another. Heartbreaking.

2599
02:22:37,600 --> 02:22:40,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, best you're like temporary.

2600
02:22:40,480 --> 02:22:40,680
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2601
02:22:40,720 --> 02:22:43,279
Speaker 4: After the earthquake in twenty twenty three, which folks will remember,

2602
02:22:43,360 --> 02:22:46,600
Speaker 4: we did a little fundraiser for World Central Kitchen. Syrian

2603
02:22:46,680 --> 02:22:50,320
Speaker 4: refugees were accused of fluting a lot on social media.

2604
02:22:50,760 --> 02:22:54,200
Speaker 4: Turkish Twitter had trending slogans like immigrants should be deported,

2605
02:22:54,680 --> 02:22:57,800
Speaker 4: just straight up saying it. Syrian refugees were kicked out

2606
02:22:57,840 --> 02:23:01,880
Speaker 4: of like tent camps and left homeless. They faced verbal abuse,

2607
02:23:01,920 --> 02:23:04,960
Speaker 4: which trying to act as services. Separate shelters were set

2608
02:23:05,000 --> 02:23:09,480
Speaker 4: up for Syrian refugees, like literally like they couldn't be together, right,

2609
02:23:09,959 --> 02:23:14,359
Speaker 4: Resentment simmered amongst the groups. Yeah, I read some NGO reports.

2610
02:23:14,400 --> 02:23:16,120
Speaker 4: One of the things they say is that like women

2611
02:23:16,160 --> 02:23:18,880
Speaker 4: who were refugees, especially women who run their own preferred

2612
02:23:18,920 --> 02:23:20,680
Speaker 4: not to drink water because they didn't want to go

2613
02:23:20,760 --> 02:23:23,640
Speaker 4: to the bathroom, like they were afraid and they wanted

2614
02:23:23,680 --> 02:23:26,840
Speaker 4: to stay in their tents. And like, well, yeah, that's

2615
02:23:26,840 --> 02:23:29,720
Speaker 4: something I've seen in other settings too, but like it,

2616
02:23:29,800 --> 02:23:33,600
Speaker 4: it's obviously that's a pretty fuck situation to be in, right, Yeah,

2617
02:23:34,000 --> 02:23:36,920
Speaker 4: in a hard place and you're choosing to dehydrate yourself.

2618
02:23:37,720 --> 02:23:40,959
Speaker 4: MNGOS later reported that refugees did not receive mobile container

2619
02:23:40,959 --> 02:23:44,520
Speaker 4: homes until displaced Turkish residents received them, and that refugee

2620
02:23:44,520 --> 02:23:47,879
Speaker 4: women in particular experience violence in these container camps, right,

2621
02:23:48,200 --> 02:23:51,280
Speaker 4: that's when they're they're dropping like chipping containers for people

2622
02:23:51,280 --> 02:23:52,760
Speaker 4: to live in because all the how they's filed down

2623
02:23:52,760 --> 02:23:55,600
Speaker 4: because of the earthquake. Many Turkish refugees have a sort

2624
02:23:55,600 --> 02:24:00,480
Speaker 4: of temporary protected status, so that temporary protected status only

2625
02:24:00,520 --> 02:24:03,640
Speaker 4: allows them to live in the provinces that they arrived in,

2626
02:24:04,280 --> 02:24:06,959
Speaker 4: and many of those provinces are obviously border provinces.

2627
02:24:07,040 --> 02:24:07,240
Speaker 5: Right.

2628
02:24:07,720 --> 02:24:10,720
Speaker 4: Initially, many folks had come Syrian folks that come to

2629
02:24:10,720 --> 02:24:12,959
Speaker 4: Turkey hoping that they could then continue right. Turkey kind

2630
02:24:12,959 --> 02:24:16,320
Speaker 4: of bridges between Asia and Europe, right, so they had

2631
02:24:16,360 --> 02:24:19,440
Speaker 4: hoped that they could go through Turkey right from east

2632
02:24:19,480 --> 02:24:21,680
Speaker 4: to west and then and then continue into the European

2633
02:24:21,760 --> 02:24:26,120
Speaker 4: Union preps and you live there. But that didn't work, right,

2634
02:24:26,200 --> 02:24:28,240
Speaker 4: Many of them found themselves stuck in Turkey and not

2635
02:24:28,280 --> 02:24:30,400
Speaker 4: even able to leave the province that they lived in.

2636
02:24:30,920 --> 02:24:34,080
Speaker 4: After the earthquake, Turkey lifted those those restrictions on movement,

2637
02:24:34,120 --> 02:24:37,560
Speaker 4: and you saw tons of Syrian folks traveling around Turkey

2638
02:24:37,560 --> 02:24:40,520
Speaker 4: and being like, whoa like is Stumbul, How cool is

2639
02:24:40,560 --> 02:24:42,560
Speaker 4: this like? Having lived there for ten years? Right, But

2640
02:24:42,560 --> 02:24:45,840
Speaker 4: they couldn't leave their province before for this generation of

2641
02:24:45,879 --> 02:24:47,720
Speaker 4: Syrian some of them, like I was reading some of

2642
02:24:47,760 --> 02:24:50,560
Speaker 4: their like social media, Like some folks I think meaningfully

2643
02:24:50,600 --> 02:24:53,440
Speaker 4: became felt more Turkish when they were able to access

2644
02:24:53,440 --> 02:24:56,520
Speaker 4: so things. But other folks they went back to Syria

2645
02:24:56,560 --> 02:24:58,360
Speaker 4: to visit family, they were briefly allowed to do that.

2646
02:24:58,440 --> 02:25:01,520
Speaker 4: They weren't allowed to do that before. But it also

2647
02:25:01,600 --> 02:25:04,119
Speaker 4: broadened the resentment against them. I think it's fair to say.

2648
02:25:04,400 --> 02:25:08,240
Speaker 4: And in the twenty twenty three presidential election, there wasn't

2649
02:25:08,400 --> 02:25:11,440
Speaker 4: really an option that wasn't hostile to refugees. At Agam

2650
02:25:11,480 --> 02:25:16,039
Speaker 4: was probably the least hostile, but still hostile. Neither did

2651
02:25:16,280 --> 02:25:21,640
Speaker 4: the TURKEYEU deals to prevent further migration westward help right,

2652
02:25:21,760 --> 02:25:24,600
Speaker 4: So all of this just continues to turn up the temperature.

2653
02:25:25,360 --> 02:25:28,640
Speaker 4: Between January and December twenty twenty three, over fifty seven

2654
02:25:28,680 --> 02:25:32,879
Speaker 4: thousand Syrians were deported. According to Human Rights Watch, these

2655
02:25:32,920 --> 02:25:37,240
Speaker 4: deportations took place with the authorities quote pressuring the border

2656
02:25:37,280 --> 02:25:40,879
Speaker 4: authorities to list the majority of border crossings as returnees

2657
02:25:41,000 --> 02:25:45,320
Speaker 4: or voluntary. Turkey's voluntary returns are often coerced returns to

2658
02:25:45,400 --> 02:25:48,200
Speaker 4: quote unquote safe zones that are pits of danger and

2659
02:25:48,240 --> 02:25:51,480
Speaker 4: despair that's quote from Adam Kogle, who's a deputy Mid

2660
02:25:51,560 --> 02:25:53,680
Speaker 4: East North Africa director at Human Rights Watch.

2661
02:25:54,000 --> 02:25:54,600
Speaker 3: It's weak.

2662
02:25:54,959 --> 02:25:57,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's pretty bleak, right, like, oh, look, we're going

2663
02:25:57,120 --> 02:25:59,120
Speaker 4: to volunteer you to go back to Aleppo or a

2664
02:25:59,160 --> 02:26:02,279
Speaker 4: free do you know who'll not force you to return

2665
02:26:02,879 --> 02:26:06,360
Speaker 4: to a country that is well decade long siver to

2666
02:26:06,400 --> 02:26:06,959
Speaker 4: be bes surprised.

2667
02:26:07,000 --> 02:26:07,680
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna lie.

2668
02:26:07,760 --> 02:26:10,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what I strike to do. Shrine. Just when

2669
02:26:10,640 --> 02:26:12,040
Speaker 4: you think it couldn't get any worse, to hit you

2670
02:26:12,080 --> 02:26:26,560
Speaker 4: with a terrible ad pivot. We're back and I want

2671
02:26:26,560 --> 02:26:30,119
Speaker 4: to talk about the most recent outburst of tension. There

2672
02:26:30,120 --> 02:26:32,959
Speaker 4: have been outburst of attension, outbursts of violence against Syrian

2673
02:26:33,000 --> 02:26:36,920
Speaker 4: refugees before in Turkey and twenty twenty one springs to mind,

2674
02:26:37,040 --> 02:26:40,800
Speaker 4: but recently this all came to a head in early

2675
02:26:40,920 --> 02:26:43,560
Speaker 4: July when a Syrian man was accused of molesting his

2676
02:26:43,640 --> 02:26:46,520
Speaker 4: seven year old cousin in a public toilet in central Turkey,

2677
02:26:46,879 --> 02:26:49,600
Speaker 4: which is a pretty fuck thing to do. The guy

2678
02:26:49,720 --> 02:26:53,199
Speaker 4: was arrested, the young girl was taken into protective custody

2679
02:26:53,200 --> 02:26:55,840
Speaker 4: I think, along with her mother, but it didn't stop

2680
02:26:56,000 --> 02:26:59,880
Speaker 4: violence exploding. Then the town whard has happened. That night,

2681
02:27:00,080 --> 02:27:02,920
Speaker 4: cars were destroyed, Syrian shops were attacked, and homes were

2682
02:27:02,920 --> 02:27:05,920
Speaker 4: set on fire. The next night, the violence spread in

2683
02:27:05,959 --> 02:27:09,120
Speaker 4: the border city of Gaziantep, which has like a twenty

2684
02:27:09,120 --> 02:27:13,400
Speaker 4: five percent Syrian population. A man was stabbed. I've seen

2685
02:27:13,480 --> 02:27:16,959
Speaker 4: the videos of like teenage boys, like I don't know

2686
02:27:16,959 --> 02:27:21,200
Speaker 4: if they're dead or unconscious, but they're certainly not capable

2687
02:27:21,240 --> 02:27:23,400
Speaker 4: of responding, and mobs of people are stamping on them,

2688
02:27:23,600 --> 02:27:26,080
Speaker 4: kicking them, and it's pretty horrible stuff.

2689
02:27:26,560 --> 02:27:29,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, the videos I've seen of the the riots and

2690
02:27:29,760 --> 02:27:31,080
Speaker 3: the moms are really terrifying.

2691
02:27:31,360 --> 02:27:34,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like it's petrifying to think of like a mob

2692
02:27:34,160 --> 02:27:37,320
Speaker 4: of people coming for you because of who you are,

2693
02:27:37,400 --> 02:27:40,879
Speaker 4: where your parents came from, with nothing you can do

2694
02:27:40,959 --> 02:27:44,560
Speaker 4: to defend yourself. Right. Turkey's Interior minister said that four

2695
02:27:44,640 --> 02:27:47,400
Speaker 4: hundred and seventy four arrests have been made, and Urdigan

2696
02:27:47,520 --> 02:27:50,920
Speaker 4: did condemn the violence, but also blamed the opposition rhetoric,

2697
02:27:50,959 --> 02:27:54,080
Speaker 4: which like the opposition to him, Yes, the opposite to him. Yeah,

2698
02:27:54,000 --> 02:27:55,680
Speaker 4: when he himself has said it is they're going to

2699
02:27:55,680 --> 02:27:59,920
Speaker 4: try and send a million more people back to Syria. Right. Unsurprised,

2700
02:28:00,400 --> 02:28:03,800
Speaker 4: several nights of these programs have led to anti Turkish

2701
02:28:03,840 --> 02:28:06,360
Speaker 4: sentiment in areas of Syria that are controlled by Turkey

2702
02:28:06,400 --> 02:28:10,280
Speaker 4: and its proxy forces. Right. Indeed, there's very proxy forces

2703
02:28:10,320 --> 02:28:13,200
Speaker 4: in some cases turned on their Turkish backers, and you

2704
02:28:13,240 --> 02:28:15,640
Speaker 4: could see on social media. Again I shared some of them,

2705
02:28:15,720 --> 02:28:19,800
Speaker 4: like numerous videos last week of SNA so that Syrian

2706
02:28:19,879 --> 02:28:24,760
Speaker 4: National Army fighters firing on Turkish positions, tearing down and

2707
02:28:24,800 --> 02:28:28,959
Speaker 4: burning Turkish flags, and even like mobs attacking Turkish civilians

2708
02:28:28,959 --> 02:28:31,480
Speaker 4: in a Frien right, which is one of the cities

2709
02:28:31,520 --> 02:28:34,120
Speaker 4: that Turkey captured from the SDF. You can say in

2710
02:28:34,120 --> 02:28:38,680
Speaker 4: another Turkish occupied areas too, demonstrators tried to storm the

2711
02:28:38,720 --> 02:28:43,000
Speaker 4: headquarters or Turkish backed administration. SNA fighters withdrew from their

2712
02:28:43,040 --> 02:28:45,800
Speaker 4: frontline positions to set up roadeblocks and tack Turkish bass.

2713
02:28:46,520 --> 02:28:48,840
Speaker 4: Dozens of people stayed to sit in in the Al

2714
02:28:48,920 --> 02:28:55,400
Speaker 4: Hayya Square in Afrene. Again, these are not tensions have

2715
02:28:55,440 --> 02:28:59,000
Speaker 4: popped up overnight, right, This just happened because mobs in

2716
02:28:59,120 --> 02:29:02,320
Speaker 4: Turkey attacked Syrian refugees. But this was kind of the

2717
02:29:02,840 --> 02:29:06,240
Speaker 4: cork popping, if you like, and one of the things

2718
02:29:06,280 --> 02:29:08,400
Speaker 4: that has caused tensions to increase in recent weeks is

2719
02:29:08,440 --> 02:29:13,320
Speaker 4: this sort of detente between Asad and Turkey, Right, So,

2720
02:29:13,360 --> 02:29:16,760
Speaker 4: in response to these protests, Turkey shut off the internet,

2721
02:29:17,000 --> 02:29:19,960
Speaker 4: closed border crossings, and it sent more troops into the area.

2722
02:29:20,400 --> 02:29:22,520
Speaker 4: Masses of people were arrested and people were charged with

2723
02:29:22,600 --> 02:29:26,480
Speaker 4: things like desecrating national symbols of Turkey, which like again

2724
02:29:26,520 --> 02:29:30,000
Speaker 4: that this is not in Turkey, right, this is in Syria. Yeah,

2725
02:29:30,040 --> 02:29:31,840
Speaker 4: but in the area occupied by Turkey.

2726
02:29:32,200 --> 02:29:36,280
Speaker 3: I think anytime a government or an occupying power like

2727
02:29:36,560 --> 02:29:39,840
Speaker 3: shuts off Internet, that is terrifying to me. Yeah, because

2728
02:29:41,000 --> 02:29:43,520
Speaker 3: you know, they're trying to do something they don't want

2729
02:29:43,560 --> 02:29:43,920
Speaker 3: you to see.

2730
02:29:44,120 --> 02:29:47,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally. Fortunately, it's twenty twenty four and like there's

2731
02:29:47,920 --> 02:29:50,200
Speaker 4: only so far that they can go. Like I've seen

2732
02:29:50,240 --> 02:29:52,160
Speaker 4: lots of videos from those protests, but yeah, they're trying

2733
02:29:52,160 --> 02:29:54,640
Speaker 4: to stop people organizing. They're trying to stop them and

2734
02:29:54,680 --> 02:29:55,400
Speaker 4: the world seeing.

2735
02:29:55,480 --> 02:29:59,680
Speaker 3: It's more so the act that that power like choosing

2736
02:29:59,680 --> 02:30:03,040
Speaker 3: to do so purposeful and that's like a choice.

2737
02:30:03,120 --> 02:30:08,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally, Like, yeah, everyone knows what you're going for there. Yeah.

2738
02:30:08,360 --> 02:30:11,279
Speaker 4: On the fifth of July, detainees who arrested during protests

2739
02:30:11,280 --> 02:30:14,680
Speaker 4: in northern Aleppo, including a child, were forced to film

2740
02:30:14,680 --> 02:30:17,440
Speaker 4: themselves with a Turkey flag behind them and apologized to

2741
02:30:17,480 --> 02:30:20,680
Speaker 4: the Turkish government and people for burning the Turkish flag.

2742
02:30:21,480 --> 02:30:23,680
Speaker 4: One of the videos obtained by the Syrian Observatory for

2743
02:30:23,800 --> 02:30:26,600
Speaker 4: Human Rights showed a child under pressure admitting to quote

2744
02:30:26,680 --> 02:30:29,520
Speaker 4: burning the turkeysh flag and apologizing to the Turkish people

2745
02:30:29,520 --> 02:30:33,640
Speaker 4: before kissing the flags. Chris, Yeah, again, when people kiss

2746
02:30:33,680 --> 02:30:36,440
Speaker 4: the flags on TV, it's not a great sign. I

2747
02:30:36,440 --> 02:30:38,960
Speaker 4: did see videos of some of the SNA who appear

2748
02:30:39,000 --> 02:30:42,400
Speaker 4: to have captured some Turkish soldiers making them kiss their

2749
02:30:42,480 --> 02:30:47,840
Speaker 4: flag as well, like the Syrian Revolution flag. So I

2750
02:30:47,879 --> 02:30:51,240
Speaker 4: want to talk about these Turkish safe zones, right, so

2751
02:30:51,360 --> 02:30:55,240
Speaker 4: called safe zones, I guess they're anything but safe. They've

2752
02:30:55,240 --> 02:30:58,960
Speaker 4: been seized through military incursions and their rife with corruption

2753
02:30:59,040 --> 02:31:01,160
Speaker 4: in human rights abuse. It is both by Turkish back

2754
02:31:01,200 --> 02:31:05,080
Speaker 4: forces and Turkish forces directly. And you'll be familiar with

2755
02:31:05,120 --> 02:31:07,680
Speaker 4: some of this stuff from what Israel does in Palestine,

2756
02:31:08,360 --> 02:31:12,240
Speaker 4: specifically the destruction and theft of ancient olive orchids. You

2757
02:31:12,280 --> 02:31:14,240
Speaker 4: can see it like listed on the Syrian Observatory of

2758
02:31:14,360 --> 02:31:17,000
Speaker 4: Human Rights if you go to like they organize the

2759
02:31:17,040 --> 02:31:19,400
Speaker 4: areas by the name of the Turkish Mission, so like

2760
02:31:19,480 --> 02:31:24,080
Speaker 4: Operation Peace Spring Area or Euphrates Shield or Operation Olive

2761
02:31:24,080 --> 02:31:27,920
Speaker 4: Branch is a real fucking on the nose name. And

2762
02:31:27,959 --> 02:31:30,400
Speaker 4: you can see like ten olive trees were cut down

2763
02:31:30,440 --> 02:31:34,240
Speaker 4: and sold for firewood, or like people reselling homes that

2764
02:31:34,240 --> 02:31:38,080
Speaker 4: were sees from civilians. Right wow. And I've spoken to

2765
02:31:38,240 --> 02:31:41,240
Speaker 4: people who have left a free in my time in

2766
02:31:42,400 --> 02:31:46,320
Speaker 4: KURDISTWN and Syrian Kurdistan and in the United States, and

2767
02:31:46,360 --> 02:31:49,920
Speaker 4: I've spoken to people who were there as part of

2768
02:31:50,120 --> 02:31:53,360
Speaker 4: the SDF and flat backwards, and like a lot of

2769
02:31:53,400 --> 02:31:56,000
Speaker 4: them have confirmed the same stuff, right, destruction and property

2770
02:31:56,520 --> 02:31:59,680
Speaker 4: theft of homes and houses, and then like there's evidence

2771
02:31:59,680 --> 02:32:04,520
Speaker 4: of there's evidence of corruption in these areas today, right,

2772
02:32:04,680 --> 02:32:09,800
Speaker 4: sexual violence, even torture. So it's pretty bad. There are

2773
02:32:09,800 --> 02:32:11,280
Speaker 4: a ton of links that will be on our sources

2774
02:32:11,320 --> 02:32:13,000
Speaker 4: page if you want to read more. I don't want

2775
02:32:13,000 --> 02:32:15,039
Speaker 4: to sort of traumatize you all on your way to

2776
02:32:15,120 --> 02:32:20,720
Speaker 4: work here. I'll just traumatize Serene. Yeah you're working, that's.

2777
02:32:20,560 --> 02:32:21,320
Speaker 3: Another day at work.

2778
02:32:21,400 --> 02:32:24,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a normal day. Most of the protests seem

2779
02:32:24,640 --> 02:32:27,000
Speaker 4: to have died down now, but the situation doesn't really

2780
02:32:27,440 --> 02:32:30,320
Speaker 4: seem to have become any more stable in Turkey, just

2781
02:32:30,320 --> 02:32:33,080
Speaker 4: Like many other countries, politicians have rented a right response

2782
02:32:33,120 --> 02:32:35,960
Speaker 4: to an economic crisis and blame refugees for problems caused

2783
02:32:36,000 --> 02:32:39,800
Speaker 4: by capitalism. Reports abuse of Syrian refugees caught crossing the

2784
02:32:39,840 --> 02:32:42,360
Speaker 4: border of Rife and some of their data appears to

2785
02:32:42,440 --> 02:32:44,959
Speaker 4: be leaked in the last few days. I can't confirm this,

2786
02:32:45,040 --> 02:32:46,760
Speaker 4: but I've seen this from a few places right that

2787
02:32:47,640 --> 02:32:50,120
Speaker 4: data from a registry of refugees has been leaked, which

2788
02:32:50,120 --> 02:32:53,320
Speaker 4: would obviously be very concerning, like if we look at

2789
02:32:53,360 --> 02:32:55,959
Speaker 4: things like the Marash massacre, we look at like the

2790
02:32:56,040 --> 02:32:59,400
Speaker 4: totality of this sentiment and the people doing it. Tensions

2791
02:32:59,400 --> 02:33:02,400
Speaker 4: in the Turkish occupied areas of Syria remain high, with

2792
02:33:02,480 --> 02:33:05,440
Speaker 4: people there strongly opposed to the Turkish oppression, seizure and

2793
02:33:05,520 --> 02:33:08,720
Speaker 4: sale of their landed homes, and the potential of at

2794
02:33:08,720 --> 02:33:12,080
Speaker 4: a time between the two countries. This weekd Agan said,

2795
02:33:12,440 --> 02:33:16,279
Speaker 4: we will extend our invitation to a sad With this invitation,

2796
02:33:16,520 --> 02:33:19,240
Speaker 4: we want to restore Turkey Syria relations to the same

2797
02:33:19,320 --> 02:33:22,400
Speaker 4: level as in the past. Our invitation may be extended

2798
02:33:22,440 --> 02:33:25,720
Speaker 4: at any time. That's a readout of an interview by

2799
02:33:25,760 --> 02:33:27,840
Speaker 4: Turkish media that's obviously translated.

2800
02:33:28,120 --> 02:33:30,800
Speaker 3: That's some vague. It's like, at what point in the past.

2801
02:33:31,080 --> 02:33:34,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean, look, I think it's the correct

2802
02:33:34,440 --> 02:33:36,920
Speaker 4: number of relations to have with the side is non yeah,

2803
02:33:37,160 --> 02:33:40,440
Speaker 4: and so like any more than that is bad. There

2804
02:33:40,480 --> 02:33:43,279
Speaker 4: are also reports that Turkey is going to open crossings

2805
02:33:43,320 --> 02:33:46,680
Speaker 4: between the territory it is controlling and regime territory, right.

2806
02:33:46,680 --> 02:33:48,400
Speaker 4: There are protests about that. I saw in a lepo.

2807
02:33:49,360 --> 02:33:53,320
Speaker 4: Syria has said that normalization can only happen after Turkey

2808
02:33:53,320 --> 02:33:56,560
Speaker 4: agrees to pull out the troops that it has. Turkey

2809
02:33:57,440 --> 02:34:00,480
Speaker 4: is opposed to this because it doesn't want the SDA,

2810
02:34:00,520 --> 02:34:02,320
Speaker 4: which it believes to be an extension of the p

2811
02:34:02,520 --> 02:34:05,160
Speaker 4: k K, which it considers to be a terrorist group,

2812
02:34:05,680 --> 02:34:08,959
Speaker 4: to have territory along its border, right, And the FDF

2813
02:34:08,959 --> 02:34:10,960
Speaker 4: still does already have territory along its border. Right, Like

2814
02:34:11,040 --> 02:34:13,440
Speaker 4: Cami Shlow where I was, you can go on top

2815
02:34:13,480 --> 02:34:16,240
Speaker 4: of a torp building and look across the border. But

2816
02:34:16,560 --> 02:34:17,879
Speaker 4: that does seem to be kind of a red line

2817
02:34:17,920 --> 02:34:20,080
Speaker 4: for Turkey. So I don't know where that leaves us, but.

2818
02:34:20,400 --> 02:34:23,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, that does seem something that they would never want

2819
02:34:23,600 --> 02:34:27,440
Speaker 3: to do. So but shar really called their bluff there, Yeah.

2820
02:34:27,320 --> 02:34:30,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is which is kind of funny,

2821
02:34:30,080 --> 02:34:33,480
Speaker 4: given that he's not exactly in a strong position to negotiate. No,

2822
02:34:34,000 --> 02:34:36,640
Speaker 4: but maybe Turkey has given up on the revolution in

2823
02:34:36,680 --> 02:34:40,840
Speaker 4: Syria and it just wants to join with US at

2824
02:34:41,160 --> 02:34:43,480
Speaker 4: and as long as they can both say fuck the Kurds,

2825
02:34:43,560 --> 02:34:47,600
Speaker 4: and that's enough for both of them, right, But like

2826
02:34:48,520 --> 02:34:50,320
Speaker 4: if they can both get together on a state level

2827
02:34:50,320 --> 02:34:54,119
Speaker 4: and be like, fuck these cords, and therefore, I guess

2828
02:34:54,280 --> 02:34:57,320
Speaker 4: the cost of that would be sending these refugees home

2829
02:34:58,120 --> 02:35:00,440
Speaker 4: for Turkey, which is I guess not because it's to

2830
02:35:00,440 --> 02:35:03,640
Speaker 4: be a cost by some of them. And that's millions

2831
02:35:03,640 --> 02:35:06,440
Speaker 4: of people, right, millions of people who like something. In

2832
02:35:06,440 --> 02:35:09,359
Speaker 4: some cases, people are worried about having a citizenship removed,

2833
02:35:09,959 --> 02:35:12,680
Speaker 4: like they went there to be safe. And of course

2834
02:35:12,720 --> 02:35:14,640
Speaker 4: it's a violation of international law, and of course that

2835
02:35:14,720 --> 02:35:17,760
Speaker 4: doesn't matter because international law is as real as unicorns.

2836
02:35:18,520 --> 02:35:22,800
Speaker 4: But it leaves millions of people in limbo, right. Urdigan

2837
02:35:22,879 --> 02:35:26,520
Speaker 4: said he's promised to send another million refugees back, but

2838
02:35:26,760 --> 02:35:30,240
Speaker 4: that's not possible without the cooperation of the regime. Really,

2839
02:35:30,280 --> 02:35:32,320
Speaker 4: I guess he could just pump them all into like

2840
02:35:32,800 --> 02:35:35,200
Speaker 4: a free or whatever. But he's pumping people into a

2841
02:35:35,200 --> 02:35:38,480
Speaker 4: situation where people are already actively opposed to the Turkish

2842
02:35:38,520 --> 02:35:41,640
Speaker 4: occupation there. Right, if he pulls out his troops, he's

2843
02:35:41,640 --> 02:35:43,560
Speaker 4: going to have to accept that there will be Kurdish

2844
02:35:43,600 --> 02:35:46,920
Speaker 4: forces on his border, which he hates. So it's a

2845
02:35:47,000 --> 02:35:49,760
Speaker 4: question of, like what value does he assigned to the

2846
02:35:49,760 --> 02:35:52,640
Speaker 4: safety of these three million refugees, And it doesn't seem

2847
02:35:52,720 --> 02:35:57,600
Speaker 4: to be very high. And like every time when we

2848
02:35:57,680 --> 02:36:01,320
Speaker 4: talk about migration, that people are eaving terrible things, right,

2849
02:36:01,320 --> 02:36:03,279
Speaker 4: that that's why people tend to end up as refugees.

2850
02:36:03,320 --> 02:36:06,119
Speaker 4: But there's never been a I don't think a more

2851
02:36:06,160 --> 02:36:09,840
Speaker 4: pronounced global crackdown than I've seen right now. It's not

2852
02:36:09,879 --> 02:36:13,560
Speaker 4: like these Syrian refugees, they can't leave their province, right.

2853
02:36:13,640 --> 02:36:16,600
Speaker 4: I've spoken to hundreds of people who have left Turkey

2854
02:36:16,680 --> 02:36:19,440
Speaker 4: in the last six months year. It's very hard, it's

2855
02:36:19,520 --> 02:36:21,960
Speaker 4: very expensive, and lots of the people who have fled

2856
02:36:21,959 --> 02:36:24,480
Speaker 4: from Turkey only went there for a few months, right,

2857
02:36:24,959 --> 02:36:29,240
Speaker 4: and then kept moving. Every country has made it harder

2858
02:36:29,240 --> 02:36:32,120
Speaker 4: than it ever was to immigrate. Like even you know

2859
02:36:32,120 --> 02:36:34,680
Speaker 4: that we talk about the Syrian refugee crisis in twenty fourteen,

2860
02:36:34,720 --> 02:36:39,760
Speaker 4: twenty sixteen, unleashing three million people, right that they need

2861
02:36:39,800 --> 02:36:42,400
Speaker 4: a safe place to go. If you try and force

2862
02:36:42,440 --> 02:36:45,120
Speaker 4: them back to Syria, it's either going to be an

2863
02:36:45,160 --> 02:36:48,680
Speaker 4: absolutely terrible humanitarian disaster or we're going to have more

2864
02:36:48,800 --> 02:36:54,640
Speaker 4: refugees entering the refugee system at a time when governments

2865
02:36:54,680 --> 02:36:57,560
Speaker 4: all around the world are indifferent at best to the

2866
02:36:57,560 --> 02:37:01,240
Speaker 4: survival of refugees, right, including the fucking buying government in

2867
02:37:01,240 --> 02:37:05,840
Speaker 4: this country. Yeah, yeah, it's uh, it's pretty big.

2868
02:37:07,120 --> 02:37:10,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, but uh, that fucking sucks.

2869
02:37:09,760 --> 02:37:14,240
Speaker 4: Dreams it does, fucking sucker. I will be back in

2870
02:37:14,600 --> 02:37:16,720
Speaker 4: two weeks to talk to you about what Turkey is

2871
02:37:16,760 --> 02:37:20,720
Speaker 4: doing in the Kurdistan Autonomous Region of a ruck where

2872
02:37:20,720 --> 02:37:24,640
Speaker 4: they are bombing Curtis Dan freedom gorillas, they're setting up

2873
02:37:24,720 --> 02:37:27,959
Speaker 4: roadblocks and again like making massive incursions into another country.

2874
02:37:28,480 --> 02:37:30,160
Speaker 4: So that'd be great, we can you can all look

2875
02:37:30,160 --> 02:37:33,960
Speaker 4: forward to that over the weekend. Yeah, I guess I

2876
02:37:34,040 --> 02:37:37,840
Speaker 4: guarantee that there are refugees, probably refugees from Turkeyosyria in

2877
02:37:38,080 --> 02:37:40,800
Speaker 4: the town where you live, or in the nearest big

2878
02:37:40,840 --> 02:37:42,920
Speaker 4: town to where you live, and you can do something

2879
02:37:43,040 --> 02:37:45,360
Speaker 4: nice for them this weekend if you want to.

2880
02:37:45,600 --> 02:37:48,360
Speaker 3: Especially if you live somewhere where it's hot as shit,

2881
02:37:48,800 --> 02:37:52,600
Speaker 3: you can I don't know, help out, drop off water

2882
02:37:52,760 --> 02:37:53,680
Speaker 3: somewhere or something.

2883
02:37:54,000 --> 02:37:57,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like and I've just been talking to Kurtis refugees

2884
02:37:57,959 --> 02:37:59,760
Speaker 4: who are in like the Northeast, you know, I spoke

2885
02:37:59,800 --> 02:38:02,240
Speaker 4: to and they're not Kurdish or or Turkish, but talk

2886
02:38:02,280 --> 02:38:05,040
Speaker 4: about to Some refugees are in Scranton, famous for Joe

2887
02:38:05,080 --> 02:38:07,440
Speaker 4: Biden always talking about it. But yeah, there are folks

2888
02:38:07,440 --> 02:38:09,520
Speaker 4: everywhere who need your help. You can make a difference.

2889
02:38:09,520 --> 02:38:11,880
Speaker 4: I guess the fucking government isn't going to Joe Biden,

2890
02:38:11,920 --> 02:38:15,760
Speaker 4: isn't going to Kamala Harris isn't going to either, and

2891
02:38:15,879 --> 02:38:18,160
Speaker 4: neither is fucking Hillary Clinton. I'm damn sure of that.

2892
02:38:18,400 --> 02:38:22,920
Speaker 4: So it is only you, and that doesn't need to

2893
02:38:22,959 --> 02:38:26,480
Speaker 4: make you desperate. You can do something. I spoke to

2894
02:38:26,560 --> 02:38:29,760
Speaker 4: so many, Like another of our podcast listeners was at

2895
02:38:29,760 --> 02:38:32,040
Speaker 4: the border on Monday and I met them and they

2896
02:38:32,040 --> 02:38:34,280
Speaker 4: were lovely and we drove around and help people, and like,

2897
02:38:34,959 --> 02:38:38,600
Speaker 4: you just need to take that yourself, and like, you

2898
02:38:38,640 --> 02:38:41,760
Speaker 4: can do something. But the first step is, you know,

2899
02:38:42,080 --> 02:38:45,600
Speaker 4: lugging off Twitter and getting out there. And like I

2900
02:38:45,640 --> 02:38:49,800
Speaker 4: promise you you will feel less hopeless if you start helping.

2901
02:38:49,800 --> 02:38:51,800
Speaker 4: Even though it's only one person, it makes a difference.

2902
02:38:52,440 --> 02:38:55,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is something that James did tell me that

2903
02:38:55,400 --> 02:38:57,959
Speaker 3: I think about is because I get really overwhelmed with

2904
02:38:58,040 --> 02:39:00,920
Speaker 3: the idea of how many people need help in this world.

2905
02:39:01,160 --> 02:39:03,840
Speaker 3: And I'm just like a big softie and I really

2906
02:39:04,680 --> 02:39:07,000
Speaker 3: just overwhelms me, like what can I what can me

2907
02:39:07,200 --> 02:39:11,520
Speaker 3: little me do to help anything? But Dreams is right.

2908
02:39:11,560 --> 02:39:14,200
Speaker 3: If you change even one person's life, that's one person's

2909
02:39:14,240 --> 02:39:17,080
Speaker 3: whole life. That's a big deal. And so I think

2910
02:39:17,120 --> 02:39:19,800
Speaker 3: it has to start there. And if there are many

2911
02:39:19,800 --> 02:39:21,600
Speaker 3: more of you doing the same thing, then that's how

2912
02:39:21,680 --> 02:39:25,760
Speaker 3: actual change happens. Because yeah, our government is useless. But yeah,

2913
02:39:25,879 --> 02:39:28,279
Speaker 3: listen to Dreams. Dreams is wise and.

2914
02:39:28,160 --> 02:39:32,840
Speaker 4: British, please, I listen to because I'm British, because that

2915
02:39:32,840 --> 02:39:35,080
Speaker 4: will lead you down some dark paths in terms of

2916
02:39:35,120 --> 02:39:35,920
Speaker 4: gender ideology.

2917
02:39:36,840 --> 02:39:39,080
Speaker 3: I mean maybe I meant that you sound wise because

2918
02:39:39,080 --> 02:39:39,600
Speaker 3: you're British.

2919
02:39:39,640 --> 02:39:41,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's what I got get for me. But

2920
02:39:41,600 --> 02:39:43,920
Speaker 4: just be nice to people and they take by someone

2921
02:39:43,959 --> 02:39:46,520
Speaker 4: fucking lunch this weekend if you have the money, if not,

2922
02:39:46,560 --> 02:39:48,800
Speaker 4: make them lunch, you know, make some rice. It's cheap.

2923
02:39:49,920 --> 02:39:52,199
Speaker 4: And yeah, you can make a difference. No one fucking

2924
02:39:52,200 --> 02:39:55,320
Speaker 4: else will if you want to talk about being a leftist.

2925
02:39:55,520 --> 02:39:57,440
Speaker 4: That's great, But like I have so much more respect

2926
02:39:57,480 --> 02:40:00,400
Speaker 4: for people who want to do stuff, So do stuff

2927
02:40:00,440 --> 02:40:02,360
Speaker 4: and the rest will sort itself out. Like you don't

2928
02:40:02,400 --> 02:40:04,080
Speaker 4: have to argue with people about the mind you share

2929
02:40:04,120 --> 02:40:07,600
Speaker 4: of ideology. It doesn't matter. Like help helping people matters.

2930
02:40:07,640 --> 02:40:10,960
Speaker 4: Making the world better matters. Say do that. It's Friday.

2931
02:40:11,440 --> 02:40:13,200
Speaker 4: Hopefully you can use your weekend to do something nice

2932
02:40:13,200 --> 02:40:13,600
Speaker 4: for someone.

2933
02:40:15,680 --> 02:40:18,840
Speaker 1: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

2934
02:40:18,920 --> 02:40:20,800
Speaker 1: from now until the heat death of the Universe.

2935
02:40:21,400 --> 02:40:23,880
Speaker 5: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

2936
02:40:24,000 --> 02:40:26,680
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

2937
02:40:26,680 --> 02:40:28,920
Speaker 3: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

2938
02:40:28,959 --> 02:40:32,520
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

2939
02:40:32,760 --> 02:40:34,880
Speaker 3: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

2940
02:40:34,959 --> 02:40:39,000
Speaker 3: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.