1 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, and welcome to Bloomberg Intelligence Talking Transports Podcast. 2 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: I'm your host, Lee Clascow, Senior Freight Transportation Logistics Analysts 3 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: at Bloomberg Intelligence, Bloomberg's in house research arm of almost 4 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,639 Speaker 1: five hundred analysts and strategists. Before diving in a little 5 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: public service announcement today, your support is instrumental to keep 6 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: bringing great guests onto the podcast like the one we 7 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: have today. If you haven't already, please do take a 8 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: moment to follow, rate and share the Talking Transports Podcast. 9 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: We really appreciate your support. Today, we're delighted to have 10 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: Ken Adamo DAT Freight and Analytics, Vice President of Strategy 11 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: and Business Development and Chief of Analytics. He is responsible 12 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: for driving strategy, customer engagement, and industry analysis on their platforms. 13 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: Prior to joining DAT in twenty nineteen, Ken lad pricing 14 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: and Decisions Science teams at FedEx, where you build innovative 15 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 1: pricing and forecasting models and leverage internal and external data 16 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: sources to improve internal decision making and profitability. He earned 17 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: a bachelor's degree in finance from the University of Akron 18 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: and an MBA from the Ohio State University. Thanks for 19 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 1: joining the Talking Transports podcast. 20 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 2: Ken, How you doing, I'm doing wonderful. I love that 21 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 2: you got the the correct in the bio. If you 22 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 2: only got one thing correct, it's the Ohio State University. 23 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: So are you a Zips fan or a Buckeyes fan. 24 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: I'm seeing the video behind you. You have a lot 25 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 1: of Buckeyes kind of stuff, so I'm assuming Buckeyes. 26 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. I got to take my son to the Ohio 27 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 2: State Acron game to start this season, and I wore 28 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 2: an Akron hat in an Ohio State shirt, So I 29 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 2: think it's hard to be an Akron fan. They're a 30 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 2: great soccer team. They won the national title when I 31 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 2: was at Akron in soccer, but it's hard to get 32 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 2: behind them as a football program. 33 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: It's it's not great, right, At least you have options, 34 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: That's that's that's good to know. So, you know, people 35 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 1: outside of the trucking world might not be that familiar 36 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: with DAT. Can you give us a little background of 37 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: what the company is and does. 38 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's a fascinating company that we have. 39 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 2: It's something I've been working around or for DAT for 40 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 2: over a decade now. When I was at FedEx, had 41 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 2: my hiring manager not assigned me my first project to 42 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 2: work with the AT. I probably have not really found 43 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 2: out about it for a while, but since we were 44 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 2: the largest marketplace for spot freight, so spot freight being 45 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 2: that unplanned, unscheduled overflow type freight in North America, so 46 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 2: we operate what they call loadboard. We also have a 47 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: rapidly growing analytics business, which was what I was joined 48 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 2: when I joined. That was what I was brought in 49 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 2: to grow. Since I joined roughly five years ago, it's 50 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 2: grown something like five x from when I started. So 51 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 2: it's cool. We've got a bunch of data on what's 52 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 2: happening in the freight markets. We get to do cool 53 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 2: podcasts with folks like you, and it keeps. Like I said, 54 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,119 Speaker 2: i joined five years ago in December, I still absolutely 55 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 2: love it. 56 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: And I'll also like to mention you know, DAT is 57 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: a data partner of Bloomberg's. You can find their data 58 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg terminal. Just type BI space t r 59 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: C K GO. That will bring you to the trucking 60 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: dashboard and you can find the DAT data at our 61 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: data library. Not only do we have a great spot pricing, 62 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: but we also have some of their contract rates as well. 63 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: So if you're trying to figure out what's going on 64 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: in the trucking market, it's a great place to start. 65 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: And you know, just also for those that don't know, 66 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: DAT is owned by a large, publicly traded company, can 67 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: you talk about your owners just for a quick second. 68 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I really think that's our superpower. A lot of 69 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 2: the folks in the freight tech space are own you know, 70 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 2: their venture backed or private equity backed, and that playbook's 71 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 2: a lot different. Roper is a long term holder of businesses. 72 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 2: That's they talk about in a lot of their earnings 73 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 2: and investor reports. So they are a tremendous business. They've 74 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: made a pivot, very public pivot over the last couple 75 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 2: of years away from some of their industrial business is 76 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 2: to fully focus on tech. It's Roper Technologies now. But 77 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: they are a great owner. They believe in long term, 78 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 2: sustainable growth businesses, and like I said, we're not you know, 79 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 2: when you see a lot of these private equity back 80 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 2: firms or slashing costs a groom, a p and L, 81 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 2: that's not that's not our mission here at DAT. Our 82 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 2: mission's long term growth, delighting our customers and growing our network. 83 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 2: So it's a fun place to be, very high expectations, 84 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 2: as anyone who's ever worked around our roper business would 85 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 2: be the first to tell you. But again, it's a 86 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 2: fun place to be. 87 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: All right, fantastic. 88 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 2: Well. 89 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: I wanted to have you on because you know, you 90 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: have your fingertips on the pulse of the trucking market 91 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: giving all that you do. I, you know, tell our 92 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: customers what I think about the trucking market, but I 93 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: also think it's good to bring other other thoughts here 94 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: so people can hear, you know, other opinions. I'm probably 95 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 1: more on the bullish side, so I'd love to hear 96 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: your take kind of what is the state of the 97 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: trucking market and where do you see things going from here? 98 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we've transitioned from blah to meh kind of. 99 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 2: That's my kind of take on it, if you will. 100 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 2: I think where we sit right now, we're on that 101 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: hairy edge of equilibrium with supply and demand. Especially in 102 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 2: the spot space, we're seeing contract rates normalize. I think 103 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 2: from a spot perspective, I would argue we're one to 104 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 2: two months into the news cycle, and I think for 105 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 2: a lot of folks that haven't lived through multiple market cycles, 106 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 2: they think it's going to go nuts again where we 107 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 2: go straight from famine to feast, which happened with the 108 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 2: eled cycle before we had tropical weather that just whipped 109 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 2: things into a frenzy and then it was off to 110 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: the races and then obviously the pandemic. So I think 111 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 2: where we are now, we're back at balance. I think 112 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 2: the entire next cycle is laid out in front of us. 113 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 2: I don't think, you know, you can never really plan 114 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 2: for these calamitous events or whatnot. So I really don't 115 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 2: see anything on the horizon that would drive us into 116 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 2: that disruptive cycle that we've seen, you know, the last 117 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 2: two times. So if you're if you're a freight historian 118 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 2: like some of us are, that twenty thirteen to twenty 119 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 2: seventeen cycle is probably the more. That's probably the shape 120 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 2: and feel of what we're looking at, I think from 121 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 2: a freight market perspective. But we're right on the foothills 122 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 2: of that. We're coming into the fall peak. You know, 123 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 2: things should be trending upwards here over the next couple 124 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 2: of months. 125 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: Right. So a lot of the listeners probably don't have 126 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 1: their PhD in freight history, So can you remind us 127 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: what happened during that period of twenty thirteen to twenty seventeen. 128 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, so thirteen to seventeen was the last what I 129 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 2: would call normal cycle on records. So what you had 130 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 2: was coming into that, you had a lot of tailwinds 131 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: coming into thirteen in fourteen, right, so you had pretty 132 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 2: strong industrial economy, You had a lot of things kind 133 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 2: of laying out in a way from a accent center standpoint, 134 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 2: some tariff policy that really pushed things favorably into that direction. 135 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 2: That all crested, I don't know, let's just call it 136 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 2: midsummer fourteen heading into fifteen, and then things started to 137 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 2: slow down. You started to enter that twenty sixteen industrial 138 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: driven freight slow down. I was in the industry at 139 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 2: that point. It was. It was slow, right, a lot 140 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 2: of the Tier one. It hit the auto industry pretty hard, 141 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: It hit the Midwest pretty hard. And if you go 142 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 2: back and look at some historical charts, you'll start to 143 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 2: see industrial production during that time really caved backwards. So 144 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 2: you know, that was a trading band. Just to again 145 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 2: for folks who haven't been around, that was a trading 146 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 2: band that the high end of that market showed rates 147 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 2: up twenty five percent you every year, and at the 148 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: depths of it rates were down let's call it fifteen 149 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: to sixteen percent. The COVID cycle at its peak saw 150 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 2: rates up sixty eight percent and down thirty five percent 151 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 2: round numbers. So to give you an idea, right, this 152 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 2: isn't a video podcast, but the peaks and valleys were 153 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 2: being stretched more recently compared to years prior. 154 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: So I guess you're in the camp where we're past 155 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 1: the bottom. We're just going to be slowly moving up. 156 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's that's right. I think it'll it'll Honestly, 157 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,679 Speaker 2: even in slow years, peak is still peak. You know. Again, 158 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 2: for the non truck truck trucking nerds out there, peak 159 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: is what we call the fall retail shipping peak. That's 160 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 2: when you if you work at UPS or fed Ex 161 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 2: or DHL, you're not doing any business trips, you're not 162 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 2: requisitioning office equipment, you're just moving freight. Right, Everyone goes 163 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 2: on a Black Friday and buys a bunch of stuff, 164 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 2: and so I think that gives us a huge seasonal 165 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 2: tail wind and that that should help us usher in 166 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 2: this new cycle a little bit more forcefully. 167 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: Right, because at the end of the day rates are 168 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: up year of year. I mean they're up very low 169 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: single digits excluding fuel on the spot market. So that's 170 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: that's a good thing. What's what can you explain to 171 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: people kind of at least what your data shows, what 172 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: is the typical connection between the spot market rates and 173 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: the contractual rates, Like how much of a lag is 174 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: there typically between those two? 175 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: So it depends, right, Which isn't a great answer, but 176 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 2: I'll explain it a second. So it's a function of 177 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 2: magnitude and direction because if you got to think about 178 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 2: what's actually happening mechanically, and this is where we've built 179 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 2: a team to help understand the mechanics of it. So 180 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: when you're pricing contract rate, you're largely in the headspace 181 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 2: of the current spot environment you're working in, which is 182 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 2: why there's a bit of a lag. 183 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 1: Right. 184 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: So if I'm at my desk and a new bid 185 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 2: comes in for ship or XYZ, and I just had 186 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 2: lunch with the ops team and they're telling me they're 187 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 2: getting crushed on the spot market rates are super super high. 188 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 2: Whether I'm being intentional about it or not. The best 189 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 2: firms in the world have this all programmatic and algorithmic 190 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 2: but I'm going to go in and be a little 191 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 2: bit more cautious in my did I might did it 192 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 2: up a little bit more so in that regard, it 193 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 2: does lag. In an extreme disruption, the lag is shorter 194 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 2: and it catches up really really quick. I'd say a 195 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 2: good rule of thumb is, you know, three months on average, 196 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 2: So I would expect if rates have been positive year 197 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 2: over year for the last two two and a half 198 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 2: months in the spot market, we should see September as 199 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 2: the first year over year flat or year over year 200 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 2: positive month for contract rates. So that three to four 201 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 2: month window is a general sweet spot. But if things 202 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: were to go absolutely out of a cannon on the 203 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 2: spot market, you'd see contract rates respond a lot faster, right, And. 204 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: So I guess given that commentary, I guess so you 205 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: are you guys kind of thinking that next year's bid 206 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: season you should see contract rates high or not lower. 207 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 2: It's hard to say that definitively because if the fourth quarter, 208 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 2: if shippers are willing to put a little bit of 209 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 2: insurance in their bids and take somewhat higher rates, it 210 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 2: might be if it's really a sluggish post election year, 211 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 2: next year, we might not see November December year over 212 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 2: year positive, but I would fully expect the first three 213 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 2: quarters to be year over year positive. 214 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:53,719 Speaker 1: I was just going to say, like, outside of any 215 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: black Swan events, like, what are the biggest risks to 216 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: the downside on your thesis, whether it's a spot or contractual. 217 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 2: Market, it's all demand. Truthfully, if we see the market 218 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 2: not responding to some of these interest rate cuts that 219 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 2: we're supposed to get, we've got a coin flip. I mean, 220 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 2: two drastically different economic policies on the ballot here in 221 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,559 Speaker 2: a couple of months, right, So, I think depending on 222 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 2: how all that shakes out, I think one candidate's largely 223 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 2: campaigning on eliminating income taxes and funding everything through tariff. 224 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 2: The other one, you know, a bit of a different 225 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 2: change in corporate tax policy. Those both of those would 226 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 2: have pretty I think big implications on what the overall 227 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 2: demand picture looks like for freight. And so if the 228 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 2: demand isn't there to substantiate and already weakened supply based 229 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 2: supply being the trucks, then we could see things really 230 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,079 Speaker 2: really get out of whack in a way we haven't 231 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 2: really seen in the last fifteen plus years. I think 232 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 2: it's a very low likelihood. I don't not like to 233 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 2: obsess over the what abouts of economic calamity. I think 234 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 2: if that happens, it happens. But concess I would say 235 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 2: consensus among our internal folks and most of the industry 236 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 2: is next year should be tepid growth in most most scenarios. 237 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, i'd agree with that. I think GDP expectations are 238 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 1: you know, one to two percent next year. And also 239 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,559 Speaker 1: there's there's a shift also going on those GDP numbers. 240 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: There's going to be more probably less services contributing to 241 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: that and more product continued to that. So that could 242 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 1: be a net positive because growth could outpace GDP give 243 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: given the mixed dynamics of GDP, So you know, that's 244 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: something to watch. But again, low single digit growth is 245 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 1: growth nonetheless, so that that's a that's a that's a 246 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: net positive for trucking demand. You know, one of the 247 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: biggest hurdles during this cycle has been, you know, capacity, 248 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: We've had too much of it in the spot market. 249 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: Why do you think capacity has been so slow to 250 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: leave the market even when a lot of these truck 251 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: drivers unfortunately aren't able to turn a profit. 252 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 2: We tend to measure these cycles on when we come 253 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 2: out of the down cycle, right, so we're always talking 254 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 2: about them with the freshness of how bad the market is. 255 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 2: I think about nineteen coming out of that cycle into 256 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 2: early twenty before COVID gone with the halcyon days of 257 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: the eld driven upswing, where you know, shippers were writing 258 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 2: blank checks to carriers that could hold their freight. So 259 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 2: we tend to forget what was happening, think about like 260 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 2: post was it Omicron or Delta that the February March 261 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 2: run up when it was like the head fake that 262 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 2: the pandemic was over, and then everything kicked back in 263 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 2: the year. So what I'm about to say is, I 264 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 2: don't think controversial, but it's a little bit dramatic and 265 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 2: say this was still the most profitable freight cycle that 266 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 2: we've ever seen since the regulation. You know Dean Crok 267 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 2: who works for US, he's in my opinion, one of 268 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: the best in industry trucking analysts that there are. He 269 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 2: would tell you that there's still a lot of money 270 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 2: in their pockets. Like the ones that haven't all but 271 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 2: the ones that run terrible, terrible businesses have money in 272 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 2: their pocket. They built a bit of a buffer over 273 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 2: those up times and they're just kind of waiting for 274 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 2: or the demand to come back and the capacity to exit. Right. 275 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 2: The market will always respond faster to demand coming back 276 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 2: than capacity exiting. So I think that's what's prolonged. It 277 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,959 Speaker 2: is we just haven't seen that rush of demand. But 278 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 2: we also haven't seen what I would consider a decrease 279 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 2: in capacity that wasn't warranted. The supply and demand fundamentals 280 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 2: are seeming to suggest that everything that's happening is happening 281 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 2: as it should, right, And. 282 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: I would just nuanced one thing he said. I mean, 283 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: I also agree, you know, Dean's a fantastic analyst, but 284 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: maybe number two after me. 285 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why I caveat of it within industry. 286 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, all right, all right, I'm a little biased 287 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: and all and all, there's this. I love Dean. We've 288 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: done a lot of panels before at a bunch of 289 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: different conferences, so you know, I love working with Dean 290 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: and hope to have him on the podcast in the future. 291 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: So Dean, if you're listening, let's get let's get together. 292 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 1: So you mentioned that it was the most profitable, you know, 293 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: time for the trucking industry. Does dat do better when 294 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: the trucking market's really good, or do you do better 295 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: when it's the extremes good or bad? People really want 296 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: to know what's going on, like when are you more busy? 297 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 2: Volatility is good for the freight analytics and load board 298 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 2: businesses as a whole, right when because we all operate 299 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 2: on a two sided network. So when things are really, really, 300 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:24,479 Speaker 2: really busy, it's advantageous because you need to find capacity. 301 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 2: You need the latest data on what the market's doing. 302 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 2: When it's really really slow, finding that load is of 303 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: critical importance, right that load just isn't a nice to have, 304 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 2: it's a need to have and making sure that you're 305 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 2: charging the right amount. This is the hardest time in 306 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 2: any freight cycle, arguably ever to price freight as a broker, 307 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 2: right the intermediaries that's hit between these transactions. You could 308 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 2: argue a carrier as well, but at least they have 309 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 2: some fixed costs to give them, like they can model 310 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 2: their business off the fixed cost and they're generally going 311 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 2: to be okay. But if you're a broker, you're pricing 312 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 2: into what you almost certainly can say is going to 313 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 2: be a market in recovery, you don't know how much. 314 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 2: You don't know if there's gonna be an exogenous event 315 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: that happens, and it's kind of a terrifying proposition. So, 316 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 2: you know, the only time that I don't want to 317 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 2: say slow, but the only time that things aren't as 318 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 2: exciting is when the markets are generally flat. Right. 319 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: You mentioned, you know freight brokers and freight brokers, are 320 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: you know one of your large customers just before I 321 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: ask my freight broker question, who else are customers of dat? 322 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: Like? 323 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 1: What other constituents do you have? 324 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 2: Our core three are shippers, brokers, and carriers, and then 325 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 2: we have some ancillary customers which we try to do 326 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 2: as much university collaboration as we can as I'm sure 327 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 2: you're familiar. Those are some taxing engagements, sometimes for very 328 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 2: little upside short of goodwill. But yeah, the core three 329 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 2: are shippers, brokers, and carriers. It's the most difficult part 330 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 2: and I say this to every candidate that walks, you know, 331 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 2: through my interview process. It is the most difficult part 332 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 2: of the job because we have a large chunk of 333 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 2: the fortune five hundred and then we have one hundred 334 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 2: and some thousand folks doing business out of the cab 335 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 2: of their truck with a cell phone. So it's a 336 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: hard customer base to serve holistically. But that's what makes 337 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 2: it fun. If it was if it was simple, it 338 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 2: wouldn't be as fun, I don't think. 339 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: And are these major constituents telling you anything different about 340 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 1: where trucking's heading or where the economies heading? Like, do 341 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: they do they have a different perspective that might be 342 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 1: at odds to each other. 343 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean this totally tongue in cheek, not 344 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 2: in any way to offend our folks that operate as shippers, 345 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 2: but we've kind of lost them to the golf course 346 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 2: for the last twelve eighteen months. Okay, they're all getting 347 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 2: bonuses and employee of the year awards. Right, if you 348 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 2: run a transportation department or the procurement department for a 349 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 2: large shipper, you've probably saved fifteen percent on two years 350 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 2: in a row on your budgets. You're doing great, right 351 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 2: your pictures on the wall by the break room. So 352 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 2: we're not hearing a ton. I think what we're hearing 353 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 2: over the last two quarters we have monthly roundtables with them, 354 00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 2: is that things are starting to tighten up a bit, 355 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 2: getting more pressure in their bids, it's not as easy 356 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,080 Speaker 2: as it was. Shippers have a lot of things that 357 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 2: they're thinking about, not just the cost, it's the service expectations. 358 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 2: Payment terms with these interest rates are a huge It's 359 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 2: part of the reason I don't think we've seen as 360 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 2: much movement in rates because I think a lot of 361 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 2: the total cost of service being litigated through payment terms. 362 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 2: Right now, if I'm a shipper and I agree to 363 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 2: not push for a rate decrease or I'm not willing 364 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 2: to take a two to three percent rate increase, but 365 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 2: I get you know, forty five payment terms increased to 366 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 2: ninety in this rate environment, that's a win for me. 367 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 2: I think brokers are the most in tune because they're 368 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 2: buying and selling. So the big brokers have a lot 369 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 2: of information that we can take in and absorb and 370 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 2: use for product development because they're both buying and selling. 371 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 2: And I think carriers are the trickiest. Large carriers act 372 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 2: more like brokers than they do the independent owner operators. 373 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 2: But this is unfortunately happened. And if you remember, you 374 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 2: know May of twenty the protests in front of the 375 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 2: White House where Trump heard the horns honking. It tends 376 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 2: to bring out a lot of people that take advantage 377 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 2: of carriers, a lot of drifting. It's kind of a disconnection, right, 378 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 2: There's a lot of windscreen time and this is what 379 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 2: Dean has taught me over the Year's a lot of 380 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 2: wind screen time, a lot of thinking that these carriers do. 381 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 2: And it helps to have an enemy that someone to blame. 382 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 2: I think this on and unfortunately it's that Adam Smith's 383 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 2: invisible hand. I think sometimes that's hard to like pegs. 384 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 2: It's easier to blame TQL as an example than it 385 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 2: is supply and demand. 386 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: So when you're talking to your your broker customers, you 387 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 1: know what are they saying about. You know their thoughts 388 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: on where demand is heading or where rates are heading. 389 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,399 Speaker 2: So this is the toughest time in the cycle to 390 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 2: be a broker because as things recover, they're locking. Most 391 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 2: brokers of size have at least some contract base's with 392 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 2: their shippers. Right, it might be as little as ten percent. 393 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 2: I think Robinson reports it publicly. There can be anywhere 394 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: from forty five to fifty five percent contract So they're 395 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 2: locking in revenue and then they're going to face an 396 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 2: increasing cost based so their margins are pinched. This is 397 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 2: the lowest margin from a percentage and dollar per load 398 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,359 Speaker 2: that they'll see of the entire cycle. So they you know, 399 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 2: they're struggling on that perspective. Volumes not great margins are 400 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 2: compressed when fuel comes down, that bites into their total 401 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 2: overall revenue. Right even though most of that, if not 402 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 2: all of that goes out the back door page of 403 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 2: the carrier, it's still a bite out of their revenue. 404 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 2: So all of that to say, I think there's a 405 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 2: lot of wishful thinking, but I think there's a lot 406 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 2: of really great analytical work going on to suggest that 407 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 2: tepid growth is well in line with their expectations. Next year. 408 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 2: You're seeing M and A. Wright Arexo closed today. I 409 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 2: think on the on the acquisition of Coyote. That happens 410 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 2: every cycle. Some of these bigs consolidated. The bigs by 411 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 2: the mediums. They're right for consolidation right now because they 412 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 2: they have the capital to float this margin compression, and 413 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 2: a lot of mid sized brokerages do not. 414 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 1: So on the broker's side, do you expect to see 415 00:20:58,160 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: more consolidation. 416 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:01,919 Speaker 2: I don't think we're done with that. I think, especially 417 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 2: getting through peak, I think you'll see that typical seasonal 418 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 2: slow down in January February March. I think that's when 419 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 2: you'll start to see even more m and a activity 420 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 2: light up in that space. 421 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: You know, earlier you mentioned some shocks to the you know, 422 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:23,160 Speaker 1: supplied demand dynamics in the trucking cycle. You know, whether 423 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 1: it's ELDS or COVID. You know, we're having a new 424 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 1: EPA mandate in twenty twenty seven for trucks. Is that 425 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,719 Speaker 1: on your radar yet in terms of you know, a 426 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: pre buy and what that might do to supply. 427 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 2: So we're looking at it through the lens of EV 428 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 2: and fuel cell, an autonomous vehicle. We did a research 429 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,879 Speaker 2: project last year on this. Honestly, the markets we serve 430 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 2: our bread and butter are kind of twofold. It's the local, 431 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 2: kind of within two hundred and fifty mile radius of 432 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 2: the top ten markets in the US and then long 433 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 2: haul things two hundred and fifty or fire one hundred 434 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 2: fifty miles or longer. Battery technology is going to have 435 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 2: and again I'm a I'm not an engineer in this field, 436 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 2: but what I've been told our battery technology has to 437 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: take that next like incremental innovative leap to even be 438 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 2: considered for these long haul like forty five pounds going 439 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 2: from Dallas to Boston. Now, I do think there's the 440 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 2: pushdown rags. There's you know, California is building charging infrastructure 441 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:29,880 Speaker 2: and fuel cell infrastructure to support a lot of pass 442 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 2: down rags. It'll take an effect before twenty seven, so 443 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 2: I think we might see some impact on local right 444 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 2: that under two n or fifty mile it could be 445 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 2: your age dras would be a ripe target for something 446 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 2: like that, but it's not something that's probably top ten 447 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 2: on our priority list to think about the moment. And 448 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 2: I think AV is probably even further. AV will probably 449 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 2: largely mirror the macro routing guide in how it gets deployed, right, 450 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 2: So I think it'll be Walmart equipment hauling walm mar't 451 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 2: freight between Walmart dcs will be the first deployment of 452 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 2: a V and then it'll break down the dedicated and 453 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 2: then large contract carriage, and then I might be retired 454 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,479 Speaker 2: by the time spot freight's being handled by autonomous right. 455 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 2: I mean, it's like the deadhead that there's there's there's 456 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 2: a lot of macro problems with spot freight, so I 457 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 2: suspect there will still be folks driving glider kits around 458 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 2: in twenty forty to avoid the eld mandate, let alone 459 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 2: autonomous in the spot market. 460 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: Right, So you know when you say the Walmart freight 461 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: going between Walmart, you know d c's is that something 462 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: you see two years out, three years out, five years out, 463 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: because you said, you know, the spot market's not gonna 464 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: happen until you until after you retire, So you know, 465 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: I know I'm a little older than you, but I 466 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 1: don't know how much more you you plan on working. 467 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 2: Look, we don't have autonomous trains and planes yet, and 468 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 2: I think like there's signposts that we're looking at again 469 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 2: looking at outside ands and dating back to when I 470 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 2: was at FedEx, the signposts still existed, where like I know, 471 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 2: it's not directly related, but we still don't have autonomous 472 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,120 Speaker 2: air freighters. I think autonomous air freighters seem like that'd 473 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 2: be something that would be easier to implement because there's 474 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 2: no traffic in the air. And I think trains are 475 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 2: interesting because it represents a different hurdle. It's not so 476 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 2: much the tech, it's not so much the traffic because 477 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 2: they run on rails. But it's the massive legal and 478 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 2: interstate commerce and labor relations factors that play there. And 479 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 2: then like you get to the point where the most 480 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 2: predictable freight will be the most primed for autonomous, and 481 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 2: there's eighty five to ninety percent of all freight isn't 482 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 2: moving into the spot market. It's there for a reason, 483 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 2: Like very few things arrived to the spot by pure happenstance. 484 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 2: It's because it's your carrier fell off, your intermodal provider 485 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 2: failed to pick up, blah blah blah blah. Like on 486 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 2: down the line, there's hundreds of reasons to lie, and 487 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 2: all of those reasons buy and large have one hundred 488 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 2: percent overlap with poor fit for autonomous. So I don't 489 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 2: plan on retiring anytime soon, but I think it's probably 490 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 2: a fifteen to twenty five year window for a spot truthfully, all. 491 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,879 Speaker 1: Right, I guess we'll see. I actually think that's a 492 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: little bullish. 493 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, And look, I think it's hard to predict what 494 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 2: those huge leaps will be. But even then, it's like 495 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 2: Ohio doesn't get along well with our neighboring states on 496 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 2: a lot of different things, right, So it's like I 497 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 2: think those short haul lax to the warehousing centers you 498 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 2: know Inland, those those seem prime for kind of autonomous 499 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 2: shuttles going back and forth. I think putting freight on 500 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 2: on the back of an autonomous truck and sending it 501 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 2: from La to Reno even is a tougher proposition, But 502 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 2: then going all the way to Columbus, Ohio is even 503 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 2: more daunting. We can't even fix potholes, Lee, I mean, 504 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 2: I have potholes that I can go. I'm six foot four, 505 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,199 Speaker 2: I can go lay in potholes in the state of Ohio. 506 00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 2: And we want to like put an autonomous vehicle running 507 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 2: down I ninety. I don't think that's going to happen 508 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 2: anytime soon. 509 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: Well, if one of the presidential candidates, I guess promised 510 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 1: to fix the potholes, maybe that could swing the election 511 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 1: one way or the other. So, you know, you mentioned 512 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: that it's really not on your radar the new EPA mandates. 513 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,120 Speaker 1: So I guess, what are the top three things that 514 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 1: you know, you guys are really focused at that's impacting 515 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: the trucking market If. 516 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 2: You're looking at external factors, I think speed limitters are 517 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 2: by far and away the biggest thing because it's such 518 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 2: an unknown, and I don't trust politicians to have any 519 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 2: ground or bearing in knowing the difference between the impact 520 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 2: of setting that at sixty three, sixty five, sixty eight, 521 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 2: or seventy miles an hour, which for us that are 522 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 2: involved in trucking, we know that would be a seismic 523 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 2: shift in the industry depending on where that number is set. Right, 524 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 2: So if you think about ELDS, it wasn't compliance necessarily 525 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 2: through the market into a shock. It was a loss 526 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 2: of efficiency. The best in the industry I was still 527 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 2: in the industry that I'm estimated it as an eight 528 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,679 Speaker 2: to ten percent immediate loss and efficiency which would be 529 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 2: gained back as they learned how to operate better. And 530 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 2: I think that's true. I think if you said it 531 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 2: at sixty three to sixty five miles an hour, you're 532 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,119 Speaker 2: probably seeing ten to fifteen percent loss in efficiency, if 533 00:26:58,119 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 2: not more. 534 00:26:59,160 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: So. 535 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 2: I think that's a that's a really big deal that, 536 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 2: depending on which way it goes, will have very large impact. 537 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 2: I think the second big thing we're looking at is 538 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 2: the contractor rights, so AB five going national, even though 539 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 2: that's not actually accurate, it's just the way that everyone 540 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 2: can kind of connect with what I'm saying, I think 541 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 2: that has huge impacts with brokerages, least on fleets, the 542 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 2: way that a lot of these big fleets have become constructed. 543 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 2: Brokers run agency models as well. So I think those 544 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 2: are the two big regulatory things, and then you know 545 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 2: carbon divisions. I think fuel cell has a real possibility. 546 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 2: I don't know that I put that in the top 547 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 2: three necessarily, but while we're talking about environmental impact and modernization, 548 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 2: I think we'll hear more and more about fuel cell 549 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 2: as it pertains to getting into compliance with some of 550 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 2: these REGs, because that is something that could handle those 551 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 2: long haul loads in a way that could be meaningful 552 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: if the infrastructure was there for fueling. 553 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 1: So for as dumb people, when you say fuel cells, 554 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: what are you talking about? 555 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 2: It's like hydrogen fuel cells, right, And again this is 556 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 2: beyond my level. My IQ is tapping out at this point. 557 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 2: But I guess there's a developing alternate fuel cell technology 558 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 2: that can even outperform hydrogen and other sources that had 559 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 2: previously been under consideration. So that's pretty much the lay 560 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 2: of the land as it pertains to those I think 561 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 2: simmering on the back burner. I don't know that we 562 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 2: got through this most recent round of rail and port 563 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 2: contract negotiations unscathed. I think there's a pretty unsavory taste, 564 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 2: especially in the rail union's mouth, about how that went down. 565 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 2: And I wouldn't be surprised if things simmer back up 566 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 2: in that next cycle. But those are longer arc of 567 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 2: time type things. 568 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: Speaking of labor, you know the ports of the East 569 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: Coast and golf course they're negotiating their contracts with the 570 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: port owners. That contract comes to the end of the month. 571 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: Is that going to have an impact if the unions 572 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: decide to strike on trucking timing? 573 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 2: Why its great timing for the unions because that's the 574 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 2: time when things are moving for peak, right, So until 575 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 2: I see something, and maybe this is wishful thinking, because 576 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 2: it would be overall good for that kind of shock. 577 00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 2: Would it be a kick in the butt for the 578 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 2: trucking economy, which would be good for all of us? 579 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 2: I think except shippers, right, they don't want that. But 580 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 2: I just until someone actually pulls off an actual stoppage, 581 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 2: I don't think any I think all of these things 582 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 2: will come down to at most some saber rattling and 583 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 2: a couple hours or a day of lost work and 584 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 2: then things will go back. 585 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think we're on the 586 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: same page. Yeah, any any labor striker or stoppage will 587 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: probably be very short term in nature, and I'm assuming 588 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: the government probably try to get involved as as soon 589 00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: as possible, just giving the disruption to the economy. 590 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 2: That comes back to my point earlier. I think it 591 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 2: was really surprising frankly that this is an a political statement, 592 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 2: is just kind of the fact that Democrats have largely 593 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 2: been on the side of labor throughout history. I think 594 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 2: it was really really surprising the more folks you talk 595 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 2: to a Democrat run Congress intervene to stop with the 596 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 2: rail unions wanted to do through some kind of arcane 597 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 2: regulatory and legislative maneuvering. I don't know, maybe I'm maybe 598 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 2: I'm reading too much into it, but I think there's 599 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 2: there's some struggling, there's some simmering discontent on the part 600 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 2: of macro transportation labor associations that could bubble. 601 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: Up, right, No, I definitely agree. So a little a 602 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: little change of topic here. You know, we mentioned earlier 603 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: and you mentioned that you were a FedEx before. Was 604 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: that your first foray into the transportation markets and kind 605 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: of how did you quote unquote step into the industry. 606 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, So when I graduated at the depths of the 607 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 2: Great Recession, actually kind of at the foothills, truthfully, he 608 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 2: was was tanking as that was graduating with a finance degree. 609 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 2: So I went to work for the power company, which 610 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 2: that was awesome if you're an analyst. I worked with 611 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 2: the deregulated side of an electricity company. Markets were deregulating 612 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 2: from Jersey all the way to Chicago that we had 613 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 2: write the play in and it was just ultra fun. 614 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 2: As things were opening up, the governments were trying to 615 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 2: limit how you know, so you'd have to like work, 616 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 2: they'd only open the enrollment from like six am on 617 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 2: a Saturday to seven pm on a Sunday and like 618 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 2: so it was just a super fun analytical playground. What 619 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 2: happens though, much like Enron or the Ercot stuff or 620 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 2: the situation I was in, people get greedy and they 621 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 2: go to jail. So several folks that I worked with 622 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 2: are under current federal trial and indictment for bribery. It 623 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 2: happened to they arrested the Ohio Speaker of the House, 624 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 2: the State House in you know, on the capitol steps 625 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 2: for involving with a bribery scam and my former employer. 626 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 2: So I bounced to transportation because FedEx had a major 627 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 2: operating company in my backyard. I thought it would be 628 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 2: a boring like who it's just picking up trucks, Like 629 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 2: I thought, it would just be a way to get 630 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 2: out brand name on your resume. There's no shortage of 631 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 2: problem to solve. The people are great the story. You know. 632 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 2: I had a wonderful CEO my entire tenure at FedEx. 633 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,959 Speaker 2: You know, she would she would disguise herself and go 634 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 2: get in a sprinter van and herself up in the 635 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 2: dispatch system to suss out problems with our dispatch process 636 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 2: and why the contractors were unhappy. And I kind of 637 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 2: learned through her, you know, once a month, once every 638 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 2: other month, we'd go sit at a TA and anytime 639 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,560 Speaker 2: the FedEx custom critical driver would come through, we'd buy 640 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 2: and breakfast or lunch and ask them how it was 641 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 2: going and keep cataloged feedback. So I think the stars 642 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 2: aligned in a lot of ways, having a great mentor 643 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 2: working for a great company. Just kind of fell in 644 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,480 Speaker 2: love with it and I really don't think I'll leave, 645 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 2: not to give my current employer a bargaining power, but 646 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 2: I really really really enjoy I enjoy the industry. I 647 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 2: enjoy the people in the industry. 648 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: And what's the number one thing that you enjoy most 649 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: about the job? 650 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 2: On my current job specifically, it is just I sit 651 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 2: on I'm like Scrooge McDuck on a pile of data. 652 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 2: Like if I came here, if I had to say, like, 653 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 2: in my first five years at the AT, what is 654 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 2: the thing I'm most proud of? I probably I took 655 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 2: the job because I believe that they weren't monetizing using 656 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 2: ninety five percent of the data they collected. Right. That 657 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 2: was what I told my wife and my colleagues of 658 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,239 Speaker 2: why I was leaving to go work at DAT. If 659 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 2: I've accomplished everything that I think I accomplished over the 660 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 2: last five years, maybe I moved that number to ninety percent. 661 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 2: Maybe and everyone we on board and have on board 662 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 2: it since then, just getting them excited about you know, 663 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 2: we passed or I think this month will pass a 664 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 2: trillion dollars and paid historical freight bills that we can 665 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 2: go analyze and look at with origin destination, commodity shipper type, 666 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 2: carrier type, broker type. And then every day there's like 667 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 2: a million loads posted on our board and a quarter 668 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 2: of a million trucks. So it's it's a never ending 669 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 2: anything you want to answer, I made a mistake of 670 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 2: joining Twitter, I don't know, a year or so ago, 671 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 2: and that's fun for really short form analysis. Right, the 672 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 2: question comes up and you can really dive in over 673 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 2: over lunch or something and poke at it. And that's 674 00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 2: not something you can get with most jobs, especially there's 675 00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 2: a burden of working in an operation, even if you're 676 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 2: not in an operational job. I'm a firm believer that 677 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 2: when you work in a FedEx or something like that, 678 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 2: your your number one job as a leader is an 679 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 2: operator first and foremost. When there's a problem, when there's 680 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 2: customers freight at risk or customers unhappy, you're all operators 681 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 2: in that moment. And it's kind of nice, although I 682 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 2: miss it, it's kind of nice in this role to 683 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 2: not have that burden of the operation. It allows for 684 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:24,239 Speaker 2: more creativity. 685 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: So, do you have a favorite book that you've read 686 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: on transportation or maybe technology? Given that's kind of you know, 687 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: the crossroads that the cross section of where you set. 688 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,880 Speaker 2: What inspired me very early on, and it's so cliche, 689 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 2: but it's very true with super freaking omics, right. That 690 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 2: was when I was my very like in college undergrad 691 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 2: and it kind of changed how I thought where my 692 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 2: career was going to go because the microeconomics of everything 693 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,399 Speaker 2: that we do in the individual motivations. But I'll throw 694 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 2: that one out because it's too cliche. The second cliche one, 695 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 2: which I think is a mustery for anyone logistics, is 696 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 2: the box. Right. I think that that's kind of that's 697 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 2: required reading. I will tell you it's not a book, 698 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,919 Speaker 2: but the thing I recommend to anyone who's not in transportation, 699 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 2: and the feedback I've gotten has been they've all fell 700 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 2: in love with it is called Containers. It's a six 701 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 2: or eight part podcast series, and if you've not listened 702 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,279 Speaker 2: to that one, it's tremendous because it views kind of 703 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 2: how it changed the local landscapes of places like Oakland 704 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 2: through the lens of how it kind of brings the 705 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 2: box kind of alive out of a book, I think, 706 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:31,399 Speaker 2: and how containerization has largely changed global economics. But I'm 707 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 2: taking like I did my MBA and basically all you 708 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:35,879 Speaker 2: read is business books in case studies. So I'm taking 709 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,280 Speaker 2: a little bit of a business book sabbatical. I finished 710 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:40,959 Speaker 2: my NBA a year and a half two years ago. 711 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 2: I'm just wading back into the pool selectively. But I 712 00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 2: couldn't touch a Brene Brown or a Simon Sinek book 713 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 2: there for a while because it was just like go 714 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 2: into the dessert bar after having three helpings of cheesecake 715 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 2: for a while. 716 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: Well, you know, take take a rest and you know, 717 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: dip to toes in in a year or so. Well, Ken, 718 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 1: I really appreciate your time. And you know, I know 719 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: you probably know this, but a lot of our listeners 720 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,959 Speaker 1: might not know. You know, this week is truck driver 721 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,359 Speaker 1: Appreciation Week. You know a lot of folks out there 722 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: might not realize how important truck drivers are, not only 723 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: to the economy but everyone's day to day life. I 724 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: think they are the most underappreciated part of the US economy. 725 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:31,959 Speaker 1: So if you see a truck driver on the road, 726 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: first and foremost, give them plenty of room so they 727 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: can drive safely, and give them a little hand pump 728 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: so maybe they they'll hunt the horn at you and 729 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:44,280 Speaker 1: and and appreciation, So for all those truck drivers listening. 730 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for for all you do, which really appreciated. 731 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:52,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll echo that I can't. I couldn't do that job, 732 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 2: not just the mechanics of shifting all those gears and 733 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 2: handling the truck, just the mental, the physical, psychological toll. 734 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,120 Speaker 2: And I would encourage you one step further than leave. 735 00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 2: Most of us will go to a fueling station at 736 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,280 Speaker 2: some point this week. You see a truck driver in line, 737 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,439 Speaker 2: if finances fit and whatnot, it really makes their day. 738 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 2: Just to show a little bit of appreciation, maybe buying 739 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 2: a sandwich, and if you have the time to spare, 740 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,919 Speaker 2: sit down. They have the best stories, right, The truck 741 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 2: drivers have by far the best stories, not always rated PG. 742 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,799 Speaker 2: Thirteen Right, So maybe don't sit down with your kids, 743 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 2: but show them the appreciation they deserve because they truly 744 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,720 Speaker 2: do keep America moving and they keep keep our daily 745 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 2: lives very comfortable that the sacrifice of their own comfort. 746 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 2: So thank you for all that you do. 747 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:45,680 Speaker 1: Totally agree. Well, thanks again, Ken, appreciate the conversation today. 748 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I greatly appreciate it. Yeah, 749 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 2: and I want to. 750 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: Thank you for tuning in. If you'd liked the episode, 751 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,880 Speaker 1: Please subscribe and leave a review. We've lined up a 752 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: number of great guests for the podcast, so check back 753 00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 1: to here conversations with C suite executive, shippers, regulators, and 754 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 1: decision makers within the freight markets. Also, if you have 755 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 1: an idea for a future episode or just want to 756 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,760 Speaker 1: talk transports, please hit me up on the Bloomberg terminal 757 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: or on LinkedIn or on Twitter at logistics Lee. Thanks 758 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: everyone and take care.