Speaker 1: You are listening to the she Hulk and D twenty
Speaker 1: three episode of X ray Vision this week, and just warning,
Speaker 1: this episode contains lots of spoilers from she Hulk episode five,
Speaker 1: and we're spinning a lot of theories on the MCU
Speaker 1: and talking about stuff from D twenty three, so be warned.
Speaker 2: Hello.
Speaker 1: My name is Jasoncepcion, and welcome to x ray Vision,
Speaker 1: a croocket podcast where we dive deep into your favorite shows, movies,
Speaker 1: comics of pop culture. There are so much stuff happening
Speaker 1: this week, and so we're making things easier for our
Speaker 1: listeners by releasing two episodes. Episode number one covered House
Speaker 1: of the Dragon, including our recap of episode four, plus
Speaker 1: Ask the Macer. Episode two, which you're listening to, is
Speaker 1: Marvel with she Hult episode five, plus our analysis of
Speaker 1: all the announcements from D twenty three over the weekend
Speaker 1: and what they mean for the MCU. You want to
Speaker 1: jump around, of course, check the show notes for the
Speaker 1: time stamps. And joining me today in episode number two
Speaker 1: for this week is Writer and Comics Encyclopedia. Rosie Night, Rosie,
Speaker 1: how are you hello?
Speaker 2: Oh can't believe? Well? Here again?
Speaker 1: We're here again, so quickly Hey, we're here again. Uh,
Speaker 1: let's talk out. Let's get into the news from D
Speaker 1: twenty three. Who The D twenty three Expo has come
Speaker 1: and gone, and it is time to unpack the teasers,
Speaker 1: the trailers, the announcements and more and what they might
Speaker 1: mean for the MCU. It is time to irresponsibly make predictions.
Speaker 1: Let's start with Secret Invasion, the trailer of which was
Speaker 1: released on the internet. This Disney Plus show stars Martin
Speaker 1: Friedman reprising his role as ever Kay Ross, THEIA agent
Speaker 1: ever k Ross, starring Samuel Jackson as Nick Fury, Ben
Speaker 1: Mendelssohn as Talos, Don Cheadle as war Machine out of
Speaker 1: the armor now apparently some sort of government official, and
Speaker 1: the Department of Defense of some sort, Kobe smallders back
Speaker 1: as Mary Hill, Olivia Coleman confirmed as Special Agent Sonya Fallsworth,
Speaker 1: Kingsley Benadere confirmed as Gravic Emilia Clark as we don't
Speaker 1: know the secret role and folks, let's talk about it
Speaker 1: because this first of all trailer is great, real uh,
Speaker 1: you know, real Captain America and the Winter Soldier vibes every.
Speaker 2: War vibe even more like a British spy movie. Yeah, ifi.
Speaker 2: He had promised that this was going to be way
Speaker 2: more intimate than the Secret Invasion event, and you can
Speaker 2: see it's going for this kind of suspenseful, spy thriller vibe.
Speaker 1: So the question is how much is this going to
Speaker 1: take from the Secret Invasion event? So just to jump back, Rosie,
Speaker 1: would you like to tell the folks what Secret Invasion was?
Speaker 2: So Secret Invasion is just like it's kind of hard
Speaker 2: to talk about how unbelievably impactful it was. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: it's like, it's okay. It was like June two thousand
Speaker 2: and eight January two thousand and nine, classic event style.
Speaker 2: It was sin It was a series but with a
Speaker 2: ton of kind of spin offs, incredible creative team on
Speaker 2: the main which is Brian, Michael Bendis, Meneal Francis, you,
Speaker 2: Mark Morales, Laura Martin, And essentially the baseline is that
Speaker 2: you discover that many of the heroes that we assumed
Speaker 2: were our most famous heroes were actually shape shifting scrolls
Speaker 2: who had been put in at every different level of
Speaker 2: heroism and government. And it had the best tagline, which
Speaker 2: was who do you Trust?
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it was just.
Speaker 2: It was groundbreaking. It also is one of the best
Speaker 2: events for spinoffs. We talk a lot about Secret Wars
Speaker 2: and stuff, but there is an unbelievable Black Panther spinoff
Speaker 2: that came out of this called Sibacander and Die, which
Speaker 2: is just so cool, And basically the notion is that
Speaker 2: you are going to find out which heroes are not
Speaker 2: heroes and are actually villains, and this just there's so
Speaker 2: much fun stuff in this. So this is obviously not
Speaker 2: something that's going to happen in the show, but I
Speaker 2: think about this all the time, which is the only
Speaker 2: person who can tell who the scrolls are throughout Secret
Speaker 2: Invasion is three D Man with his three D glasses,
Speaker 2: so he's seeing scrolls and he's like, Yo, that's a
Speaker 2: fucking scroll and they're like, no, man, that's like Hawkeye.
Speaker 2: You know. So this was like, this is the kind
Speaker 2: of event that I feel like, we don't get to
Speaker 2: see as many of them anymore, but we we occasionally do.
Speaker 2: But this reshaped the entire way people saw the Marvel
Speaker 2: universe and the way that the Marvel Universe saw heroes,
Speaker 2: which is very relevant to this because another announcement we
Speaker 2: got with Thunderbolts, so we'll get to that in a minute.
Speaker 2: But yeah, Scrolls, they're here. They've been here for a
Speaker 2: long time. And in the comic book event, it was
Speaker 2: like nobody's safe. Anyone could be a Scroll and this
Speaker 2: was a way for them to the Scroll Empire to
Speaker 2: take over Earth. Now in this we know from what
Speaker 2: Figi said that it's going to be much smaller scale.
Speaker 2: But the one thing we can assume is that there
Speaker 2: is gonna be at least one character, but maybe two
Speaker 2: who are key to the MCU who are going to
Speaker 2: be revealed as Scrolls. That has to happen.
Speaker 1: That has to happen. Now, before we get into who's
Speaker 1: a Scroll, I just want to say that like this
Speaker 1: era of Marvel comics, even starting with like Avengers Disassembled,
Speaker 1: going into a Secret War, the First Secret War, Annihilation,
Speaker 1: House of m Decimation, Civil War, Planet Hulk, World War Hulk,
Speaker 1: and then into Secret Invasion and then Dark Rain, which
Speaker 1: wasn't really an event more like a wide line wide reboot.
Speaker 1: It was a really incredible era of Marvel comics where
Speaker 1: all the events affected everything that happened. After you talked
Speaker 1: about what an incredible like jumping off point, Secret Invasion was,
Speaker 1: because Secret Invasion it created this like air of paranoia
Speaker 1: in Marvel comics, where all of a sudden, dark rain
Speaker 1: became possible because everybody was like hold on. The superheroes
Speaker 1: got in a civil war with each other, fighting each other,
Speaker 1: and then we find out that many of them aren't
Speaker 1: even who they say they are. They were actually scrulls,
Speaker 1: So how can we trust them? And then turned into
Speaker 1: this whole thing where Norman Osborne took power and had
Speaker 1: a secret like Avengers Team that and and so it
Speaker 1: really feels like as we go into Thunderbolts, that is
Speaker 1: what we're saying up right now, whatever happens after Secret
Speaker 1: Wars is going to be, Uh, We're going to see
Speaker 1: a world in an MCU that is less trustful of
Speaker 1: heroes coming forward.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And something that I think is like really interesting
Speaker 2: that this kind of ties into that I had never
Speaker 2: really considered before. Right, So we've talked a lot about
Speaker 2: how do you build a world that doesn't trust people
Speaker 2: with powers. It's secret Invasion, it's not it doesn't even
Speaker 2: have to have the political machinations and all the other
Speaker 2: stuff that we've already seen them bring in really well
Speaker 2: with Miss Marvel and kind that we've talked about that
Speaker 2: so key to the X Men. But Secret Invasion is
Speaker 2: your real jumping off point for that, because not only
Speaker 2: are some of these heroes actually scrolls who've been posing
Speaker 2: there for years, but also the heroes they have taken
Speaker 2: over are just like hidden off somewhere and like couldn't
Speaker 2: even escape. Like that's the worst thing is like, not
Speaker 2: only are they not the heroes you thought, but the
Speaker 2: heroes you thought have been trapped. So what kind of
Speaker 2: heroes are they?
Speaker 1: There is a moment in this where we see, you know,
Speaker 1: bodies in stasis in some kind of room. Olivia Coleman's
Speaker 1: character and another agent kind of like have found this area,
Speaker 1: leading us to believe that, yes, over time and over
Speaker 1: the years, certainly not Tallos's group of Scrolls, but some
Speaker 1: other more imperialistic, more warlike sect of scrolls, because the
Speaker 1: Scroll Empire is really big, spanning many many planets, and
Speaker 1: it would make sense there'll be different factions within that.
Speaker 1: This more warlike faction has over time been steadily replacing
Speaker 1: probably influential people, and we would imagine some heroes with scrolls.
Speaker 1: The question is for how long. Now there's a moment
Speaker 1: in this trailer where we see, you know, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of fun stuff in this trailer, but so Nick
Speaker 1: Fury says, like, you know, this is my war alone.
Speaker 1: I'm the last person standing between them. And and then
Speaker 1: you see like this closet open with this like silver
Speaker 1: case inside, and the case has like is like on
Speaker 1: ice or refrigerator or something. Because they open it, it's
Speaker 1: like steaming. And so you're led to believe because the
Speaker 1: voiceover in this image is like, okay, stands between them
Speaker 1: and what do you have any theories on what is
Speaker 1: in the case.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's so much stuff like in my mind,
Speaker 2: I have like wild comic book theories. I feel like
Speaker 2: the safest most MCU bet is some kind of stark
Speaker 2: tech or some kind of cosmic you know. I don't
Speaker 2: think they're going to bring the Infinity gems back again,
Speaker 2: but I feel like it's something with a world ending
Speaker 2: or world shifting possibility. But I'm very interested to know
Speaker 2: what you think it may be.
Speaker 1: The Infinity formula.
Speaker 2: Ah, okay, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes yes
Speaker 2: so so part of the way in the comics that
Speaker 2: they explain how.
Speaker 1: Nick Fury could have could have served in World War
Speaker 1: Two in a commando in a commando cadre like as
Speaker 1: the leader of the helland Commandos and then also be
Speaker 1: running around like in the eighties, nineties, and two thousands
Speaker 1: with various other ship beers. Is that he at a
Speaker 1: certain point in time was injected with this formula, the
Speaker 1: Infinity forma that just dramatically slows his agent. He still
Speaker 1: looks like a middle aged man, but you know, he's
Speaker 1: like ninety nine, one hundred and two whatever, He's very
Speaker 1: very old. I So my theory is whatever is in
Speaker 1: that case is whatever the MCU version of the Infinity
Speaker 1: format is Nick Fury injected with something? Is is that
Speaker 1: the case is? Yeah, a lot older than we actually
Speaker 1: know about. He's been running around for a while. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that, but I think that it's That's my thing.
Speaker 1: It's whatever.
Speaker 2: I think that's a very safe bet because that could
Speaker 2: also be the do x markener that the MCU has
Speaker 2: been looking for when it comes to the constant struggle
Speaker 2: of how to cast Magneto and Charles, you know, in
Speaker 2: the X Men. So I think that the introduction of
Speaker 2: some kind of infinity formula, some elixir of life, that
Speaker 2: could be very likely. Yeah, I'm very interested to see
Speaker 2: what it is that the scrolls could possibly want from
Speaker 2: Earth other than to just invade it. Now, the other
Speaker 2: option that I do think is likely that could tie in,
Speaker 2: and this is this is pretty out there, but I
Speaker 2: think it could work. We know that Miss Marvel and
Speaker 2: Captain Marvel at the Carol Dowvers at the end of
Speaker 2: the episode, and we learn more about this twenty we'll
Speaker 2: talk about it in a bit, but we know that
Speaker 2: the megabands, whatever version that they have of those, are
Speaker 2: allowed wowing them to switch places. We know that those
Speaker 2: are of pre origin the Crew Squirl War. I wonder
Speaker 2: if there's a version of it where it's some kind
Speaker 2: of artifact like that that allows that switch that allows
Speaker 2: them to control other people, because it's very useful as
Speaker 2: a scroll. So yeah, I'm I'm very interested because I
Speaker 2: feel like there's things that are so innate to secret invasion,
Speaker 2: like the super Scroll, that you can't necessarily do without
Speaker 2: the Fantastic Four. So I'm I'm very intrigued to see
Speaker 2: how the MCU recontextualizes this as an introduction to do
Speaker 2: all those other cool scroll stories that we haven't really
Speaker 2: gotten to see.
Speaker 1: Here's my other potential theory. Super scrolls don't exist yet,
Speaker 1: but the scrolls find out about Super Soldier or some
Speaker 1: other type of cereal. Oh, and they think, what would
Speaker 1: happen if we what if we created super scrolls, our
Speaker 1: own Super Soldier or scrolls that could then take over
Speaker 1: the universe.
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe that's what's in the box. Maybe it's Super
Speaker 2: Soldier Serum because Nick knows about that. You know that's
Speaker 2: and we know that Super Soldier Serum is gonna be
Speaker 2: it's it's coming back into play, which will also a
Speaker 2: big time.
Speaker 1: My only thing with that is is that then too
Speaker 1: much su Like have we done? Is it too much
Speaker 1: Super Soldier Serum at this point after falking in the
Speaker 1: Winter Soldier, et cetera? Is it too much about the
Speaker 1: super Yeah, well they keep that.
Speaker 2: In the Captain America world and this is something different. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it's gonna be very interesting. It's it's something that I
Speaker 2: think all of us as fans, especially if you grew
Speaker 2: up and you were reading those comics when they came out,
Speaker 2: have always wanted to see And I feel like this
Speaker 2: is a very different vision of it. But you know,
Speaker 2: Winter Soldier is one of the most highly regarded and
Speaker 2: beloved MCU movies, so I it's cool to see them
Speaker 2: going back to this spy genre space. There's some other
Speaker 2: big questions here as well, like yeah, yeah, I mean
Speaker 2: Amelia Clark. I have my theory.
Speaker 1: Who is she? Okay, tell me? Do you think so?
Speaker 2: I think from the beginning, I assumed that she was
Speaker 2: going to be playing Jessica Drew Spider Woman aka aka
Speaker 2: the Scroll Emphress. I love it Varank who posed as
Speaker 2: Jessica Drew. Now from watching this trailer, I would say,
Speaker 2: if they're gonna do it, they're gonna have to reimagine it.
Speaker 2: She's agent Jessica Drew of the Department of Damage Control
Speaker 2: or something. I don't think it's going to be exactly
Speaker 2: the same character, But as soon as they won, you
Speaker 2: don't cast Emila Clark for like a No. One role, right,
Speaker 2: And as soon as I saw her, I'm just thinking, like,
Speaker 2: you get to have this jeweling thing where she could
Speaker 2: be the real Jessica Drew, but she can also be Veranke.
Speaker 2: It's a jewel role. That's my hope and my kind
Speaker 2: of my wish. And also they could maybe get around
Speaker 2: the Sony stuff because she's technically not her in the show. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because she's a you know, so I think that is
Speaker 2: that's my that's my big guess, that's my my that's
Speaker 2: my curveball.
Speaker 1: I love that one. I think I'm hoping that it's that.
Speaker 1: I wonder would they give her the Spider Woman powers
Speaker 1: at any point?
Speaker 2: That's what I want to know. And so this is
Speaker 2: another really interesting thing, right, I wonder and this I would.
Speaker 2: I know that they can pull this off if they
Speaker 2: do it this way, even though it's not necessarily the
Speaker 2: version that we envisioned. I wonder if we are more
Speaker 2: You are the one, I believe who first put this
Speaker 2: theory into my head about Maria Hill being the most
Speaker 2: likely scroll. I think that is very true. And I
Speaker 2: wonder if because of the complexity of how scrolls replicate powers,
Speaker 2: which in the comics is like a very long ongoing
Speaker 2: thing you have to explain. I do wonder whether we're
Speaker 2: going to see scrolls who have infiltrated the government and
Speaker 2: maybe non powered people more like maybe like a warmst
Speaker 2: you know, a Rodie or something, or a Sam Even
Speaker 2: instead of you're more classically like strangely powered superheroes.
Speaker 1: Well, let me put this to you. We suspect and
Speaker 1: I think the D twenty three offerings heavily imply that
Speaker 1: Thunderbolts is going to come out of secret invasion and
Speaker 1: it's going to be hashtag we were right. It's going
Speaker 1: to be a kind of dark rain situation where there's
Speaker 1: where there's mistrusted heroes that like, we can't trust our
Speaker 1: heroes anymore. We need the heroes that follow orders. And
Speaker 1: you look at that lineup and it's all soldiers, right,
Speaker 1: so that you know, we want the ones that will
Speaker 1: do what they're told and will be the be the
Speaker 1: heroes that fight for us. Now understanding that it would
Speaker 1: probably be difficult ip wise and maybe a little more
Speaker 1: complex to have like no Norman Osborne actually be like
Speaker 1: the main guy at the head of a kind of
Speaker 1: like dark reign regime in the MCU. I do wonder
Speaker 1: one if the Contessa Valentina Defonteine doesn't become like the
Speaker 1: Norman Osborne figure, the more political figure, the leader of
Speaker 1: the team but also like a politician. And if she's
Speaker 1: not a scroll, could she be a scroll?
Speaker 2: Yeah, she could definitely be a scroll. In fact, I
Speaker 2: think because of the massive stunt casting and kind of
Speaker 2: that big reveal of it being Julie Leuid drefus like
Speaker 2: I feel that that It's kind of like when you
Speaker 2: watch a murder mystery, like the first season of Only
Speaker 2: Murders in the Building, it was easy to guess who
Speaker 2: the murderer was because you were like, well, this, they
Speaker 2: probably wouldn't have cast this person if they weren't the murderer.
Speaker 2: So I do feel like she has big scroll energy. Also,
Speaker 2: I think there's a lot of potential here. Something that
Speaker 2: mcu set up. It was very unusual in Captain Marvel
Speaker 2: that was very controversial, was this notion as like a
Speaker 2: certain segment of scrolls being like essentially like space refugees
Speaker 2: who were not violent, who were not invaders, who were
Speaker 2: not this kind of maniac or force like they are
Speaker 2: in the comics. So I think we could definitely see
Speaker 2: some collaboration both between good and more morally gray scrolls.
Speaker 2: So I think it wouldn't surprise me if you had
Speaker 2: someone like the Contessa who is a scroll it's revealed,
Speaker 2: but has been working with someone on Earth, someone human,
Speaker 2: some kind of I would I could not just even
Speaker 2: comprehend how cool it would be if they managed to
Speaker 2: build Norman Osborne into this. It kind of maybe down
Speaker 2: the line, maybe down the line, but no, no, I
Speaker 2: think the fact that she was actually in the lineup
Speaker 2: of the Thunderbolts. That was that's that's that's a huge deal,
Speaker 2: big and this is like you said, like that Thunderbolts reveal,
Speaker 2: it's there's some things that we were right about. I
Speaker 2: had always said they were going to put Buck on
Speaker 2: that team. There was a very popular Thunderbolts run where
Speaker 2: Bucky was on the team that people really loved. But
Speaker 2: it is very interesting because it is this notion of soldiers.
Speaker 2: It is also a notion of people that the MC
Speaker 2: you would want us to think are almost anti heroes
Speaker 2: rather than villains. Whereas the original Thunderbolts arc, which is
Speaker 2: just like so outrageous and I still sort of think
Speaker 2: about all the time that it actually happened, which was
Speaker 2: the Kerkbooziac, Mark Bagley, Vince Rush was Joe Rosas.
Speaker 1: That was craze at the time. It crase this.
Speaker 2: New team because the Avengers are gone and they bring
Speaker 2: the book and they introduce this team and you're like, whoa,
Speaker 2: these are like crazy ninety charc nineties kind of character designs,
Speaker 2: like could this really be a new superhero team? How
Speaker 2: often does this stick? And in the final pages, spoiler
Speaker 2: Alert from this comic from nineteen ninety seven, but in
Speaker 2: the final pages you learn that it's Zemo and it's
Speaker 2: the Masters of Evil. So to me, I wonder if, well,
Speaker 2: it's ex members of the Last of Evil, none of
Speaker 2: whom of the original Thunderbolt ligne up in this team.
Speaker 2: So this is my really out there theory is that
Speaker 2: this lineup is the fake out and that really the
Speaker 2: team is going to be other people in disguise as
Speaker 2: those heroes or something along those lines, because that would
Speaker 2: be very thunderboltish, or that the person who is actually
Speaker 2: in charge is Zmo, because I think that's the most
Speaker 2: that's the most kind of shocking non inclusion here.
Speaker 1: I would one, I would love that, and two, you know,
Speaker 1: other than you know, Thanos's, Lackey's and you know, Captain
Speaker 1: American Civil War, we haven't seen a lot of we
Speaker 1: haven't seen team on team fights, no, you know, Masters
Speaker 1: of Evil versus the Avengers, that kind of thing. We
Speaker 1: haven't seen a lot of that, And it would be
Speaker 1: really cool. It would just be really cool to have
Speaker 1: a Thunderbolts team that becomes that is the Masters of
Speaker 1: Evil or the MC version of the Master Is of Evil.
Speaker 1: Either overtly or covertly that then has to go toe
Speaker 1: to toe with an Avengers team. Yeah, that is like,
Speaker 1: you know, either on the run because the government and
Speaker 1: society's turned against them, or who are fighting to clear
Speaker 1: their names from whatever, you know, whatever, whatever frame the
Speaker 1: government and the Contessa or Zemo has put them in.
Speaker 2: Something that we've seen so many We see it so
Speaker 2: much in comics that it's almost like so in Batman,
Speaker 2: the story that you always get is like somebody's releasing
Speaker 2: the virus. In Marvel comics and specifically like Spidermount of
Speaker 2: Vengeres comics, somebody has framed the superheroes done something wrong.
Speaker 2: And guess what, We've seen that in many superhero movies
Speaker 2: at this point. But I think you're very on point.
Speaker 2: I think some people will be getting framed. Something about
Speaker 2: this that really excites me as well is the MCU
Speaker 2: is long rightfully been critiqued about the way it militarized
Speaker 2: the heroes, which was very much to do with the
Speaker 2: popularity of the Ultimate Tea Comments and the way it
Speaker 2: was very easy to make a ground level superhero team. Also,
Speaker 2: the original X Men movies did the same thing with
Speaker 2: the way the uniforms were envisioned. It's very exciting to
Speaker 2: me to imagine a world where you have the militarized
Speaker 2: government team as the antagonists and you have a grass roots,
Speaker 2: ground level team of heroes who have to fight against
Speaker 2: them without the might of stark tech or the might
Speaker 2: of the US government behind them. That is really cool
Speaker 2: and could be very very exciting.
Speaker 1: I'm super super excited about it. We should just quickly
Speaker 1: run down the Thunderbolts lineup. Valentina, a Legrity, Fontaine, Ghost.
Speaker 2: I was so happy to see that at Man.
Speaker 1: And the Wasp. Really cool inclusion Red Guardian, David Harbor, Elena,
Speaker 1: of course, Bucky Barnes, Wow, us agent. There's gonna be
Speaker 1: some friction there and okay, okay, fantastic, Okay, So I
Speaker 1: have a theory here as well.
Speaker 2: This is another theory. What if This seems most likely
Speaker 2: of all my wild theories, my timber But what if?
Speaker 2: So Ghost, that is very much an empathetic anti hero
Speaker 2: who was a villain only of circumstance, right Yolena. That
Speaker 2: is someone who has been tortured and exploited and ended
Speaker 2: up in a space where they are on a path
Speaker 2: for redemption. I would say Bucky is the same. I
Speaker 2: would say Red Guardian, task Master, US Agent. There is
Speaker 2: a version where we see those three split off as
Speaker 2: this more militarized. They will do whatever Masters, masters of Evil,
Speaker 2: or even just like they will do whatever that Valentina
Speaker 2: wants to the point where it's shocking the other three.
Speaker 2: And I feel like there's a world where we see
Speaker 2: a split in the team because to me, I know
Speaker 2: that the end of Falcon and the Winter Soldier wanted
Speaker 2: us to feel like why. I mean, I love why
Speaker 2: at Russell, so that's why I thought of him. But
Speaker 2: us Agent, I should say, was like doing something good.
Speaker 2: But that motherfucker he was beaded Street with a fucking
Speaker 2: captain America. She like, he is not an anti hero.
Speaker 2: He is a villain. He has always been a villain.
Speaker 2: That is the point of the character in the comics,
Speaker 2: even though he has obviously gone to more of an
Speaker 2: anti hero. So I think that that him being next
Speaker 2: to Bucky, for example, that doesn't exactly make sense to me,
Speaker 2: or him being next to Ghosts. So I could see
Speaker 2: this being the team as it begins, but there's definitely
Speaker 2: a space for a moral split.
Speaker 1: I agree with you. I think that you know again
Speaker 1: just irresponsibly making predictions. I would imagine a circumstance where
Speaker 1: the Kntessa puts this team together and they go on
Speaker 1: a mission, and she presents it as one way, here's
Speaker 1: what the mission is, and here's what we're doing, and
Speaker 1: here's we're fighting against. That is, in Nick Fury fashion,
Speaker 1: a lie, but in Contessa Valentine, a defa contained fashion,
Speaker 1: like a orders of magnitude worse lie than the kind
Speaker 1: of lies Fury tells. And what happens is Lena and
Speaker 1: Bucky Uh figure out, Oh, we're fighting or doing something
Speaker 1: that we shouldn't be doing that's not just illegal but
Speaker 1: morally wrong, and we don't want to do this anymore.
Speaker 1: And that's the kind of thing that causes the split.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm super excited. I can't wait for Thunderball excited.
Speaker 2: Just one last question because I'm just thinking about this.
Speaker 2: So we assumed that obviously Baronzimo would be in this team,
Speaker 2: Obviously the Abomination would be in this team. Maybe Sharon
Speaker 2: Carter because she's power broker. This team has no original
Speaker 2: Thunderbolts like Songbird, which I think a lot of people
Speaker 2: thought this would be where she would debut, and it
Speaker 2: doesn't have those other characters. What does that say to
Speaker 2: you in your theory mind?
Speaker 1: It's I think it says to me you pointed out,
Speaker 1: which is, at some point there is someone in disguise.
Speaker 1: There's going to be a reveal here that we're not seeing,
Speaker 1: a deeper reveal, and so I wonder, oh gosh, I
Speaker 1: think that that's what it's going to I think there's
Speaker 1: going to be some kind of reveal here, and we're
Speaker 1: going to find out that maybe one or more of
Speaker 1: the original Thunderbolts are masquerading as some of our characters.
Speaker 1: But who what do you think? You know?
Speaker 2: I think you're right. And also something that I always
Speaker 2: try and remind myself because it was such a fleeting moment.
Speaker 2: We have seen Black Widow use technology that just changes
Speaker 2: her face to someone else's face, and we're going to
Speaker 2: be in a post Scrolls world. So I think the Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think there's some kind of masquerading, some kind of shielding,
Speaker 2: some kind of big reveal that's going to make this
Speaker 2: a bit more like a classical fundable.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. So there is a at
Speaker 1: a certain point in time, I forget which run of
Speaker 1: Thunderbolts this was a a hero slash villain named Cobalt
Speaker 1: Man joins the team, but actually it was Tony Stark undercover.
Speaker 1: Are any are any of ore? Are any of these
Speaker 1: members working under cover for Nick informing for Nick Fury
Speaker 1: somebody else?
Speaker 2: Hundred percent who that is is Bucky Bond. This guy,
Speaker 2: this guy was just the sidekickoff Captain America like it is.
Speaker 2: It is absolutely Bucky Bond's. Nick Fury probably sent him
Speaker 2: in there to keep an eye on the Thunderbox. He
Speaker 2: said to him, you want to make up your debt.
Speaker 2: You want to you know, cross these names out of
Speaker 2: your ledger. You need to be on this team and
Speaker 2: make sure it's got to be him, because everyone else
Speaker 2: I'm like, you know what, they could get tricked, they
Speaker 2: could have vengeance, they could be offered something that they wanted.
Speaker 2: But after the journey that Bucky went on with Sam,
Speaker 2: I just don't see a world where he is there
Speaker 2: for well, I don't need. I also don't see a
Speaker 2: world where he would ever willingly. I don't see it
Speaker 2: used to be part of a government agency again, what
Speaker 2: was done to him?
Speaker 1: Obviously he's traumatized and has been through some really bad stuff.
Speaker 1: But this is Bucky Barnes prizes his free will and
Speaker 1: his agency greatly because that was taken from him, right,
Speaker 1: you know, like that he was not able because of
Speaker 1: his programming to really trust his intentions, his actions, and
Speaker 1: trust that like he wouldn't turn into this marauding supervillain.
Speaker 1: So I think if there is an undercover person who
Speaker 1: is informing for the heroes, I think you're right that
Speaker 1: it would be him. I would add that we were
Speaker 1: right about a couple of things. One that the name
Speaker 1: Thunderbolts was in honor of Thunderbolt Ross.
Speaker 2: Hasn't been fully confirmed, but the line up kind of
Speaker 2: teases that God is Theory was absolutely right about that.
Speaker 1: And that and we were right that Bucky will be
Speaker 1: a member of the team because we said that they
Speaker 1: would that they would, there'd be this movement to be
Speaker 1: like we want the soldiers who are also superheroes who
Speaker 1: are going to follow it words and that's it. We
Speaker 1: let's I want to talk briefly about like this idea
Speaker 1: that's kind of been out there that people have been
Speaker 1: writing about that the Thunderbolts is like the MCU's suicide Squad,
Speaker 1: which is I get it, I kind of understand. I
Speaker 1: kind of understand that take, but also that's a that's
Speaker 1: a take when you don't when you're not kind of
Speaker 1: like experienced with what those comic book properties are, because
Speaker 1: they're completely different things.
Speaker 2: I think. I think it's one of those things something
Speaker 2: that we talk about. It's like when you read the
Speaker 2: comics and you know what the teams are, it's like
Speaker 2: quite frustrating because they're very they're very different, brilliant ideas.
Speaker 2: The enforced government task force of heroes who will be killed,
Speaker 2: of villains who will be killed if they don't do
Speaker 2: the worst jobs that nobody wants. That's the suicide squad, Thunderbolts,
Speaker 2: a team of villains pretending to be heroes to gain
Speaker 2: the trust of a nation during a power vacuum. That
Speaker 2: is a really cool, other unique idea. But something that
Speaker 2: I think, like you said, you can get it. Something
Speaker 2: we talk about a lot, right, is the cyclical nature
Speaker 2: of these publishers and the way that they constantly take
Speaker 2: from each other, they take inspiration, and we've seen it
Speaker 2: in the films too. We're not going to talk about
Speaker 2: this very deeply, but I will mention because it's a
Speaker 2: great example. The final Black Adam trailer came out, looks
Speaker 2: really cool. You know what they did. They made doctor
Speaker 2: Fate Charles Xavier. They gave him the Blackbird, put him
Speaker 2: in the Xavier Mansion. Wouldn't be surprised if it was
Speaker 2: Castialoma in Toronto and they made him the X Men
Speaker 2: before the Marvel had done the x Men. Marvel did
Speaker 2: the same thing with Thanos. Jim Stalin ripped off Thanos
Speaker 2: from Dark Side because he loved Jack Kirby, and then
Speaker 2: Marvel did Thanos before dark Side in the movie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Lobo is Wolverine.
Speaker 2: It just goes, It goes on and on and on
Speaker 2: and on and on forever. Right and this in that way,
Speaker 2: I can understand why people would theorize that they will
Speaker 2: become MCU's version of the Suicide Squad, because if it
Speaker 2: is what we have been told so far, which is
Speaker 2: very little. If the Contesta is making a government team
Speaker 2: of heroes from inverted commas villains, then that is very
Speaker 2: similar to the Suicide Squad. But to me, I feel
Speaker 2: like you're missing out if you don't just go and
Speaker 2: read those comics and see how different they are, Because
Speaker 2: the Suicide Squad, it's even like the James Gunn the
Speaker 2: most recent Suicide Squad movie is like so brilliant, and
Speaker 2: it gives you a great insight into the the way
Speaker 2: that it's this exploration of exploitation of prisoners and the
Speaker 2: violence of being a hero and the things that the
Speaker 2: government would make heroes do if they could control them,
Speaker 2: and that aspect of it. I do think we will
Speaker 2: see in Thunderbolts, but they're very different, guys.
Speaker 1: Yeah, at a very basic level, Suicide Squad is our
Speaker 1: villains prisoners forced to work for the government, whereas the
Speaker 1: Thunderbolts are villains pretending to be heroes so that they
Speaker 1: can take over the government.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. That's a great way. That's where's
Speaker 2: the thing.
Speaker 1: The Werewolf Fly Night. Let's talk about the Werewolf by Night, Taylor.
Speaker 1: This premiere is on Disney Plus October seventh, just in
Speaker 1: time for Halloween, and man, this looks absolutely fantastic. Directed
Speaker 1: by Michael Giacchino, written by Peter Cameron and Heather Quinn,
Speaker 1: black and white horror vibes, supernass. Yes as Jack Russell.
Speaker 1: The Werewolf by Night, which the day the character named
Speaker 1: Jack Russell never fails to make me.
Speaker 2: The last thing about it, I think it was Jerry
Speaker 2: Comway who came up with the name Jack Russell. And
Speaker 2: in tomorrow's which is this Unbelievable fansy back issue seventy one,
Speaker 2: he was asked about it, and he did say it
Speaker 2: was unintentional. Jack Russell was if it was intentional, it
Speaker 2: was subconscious and he never thought about it as an
Speaker 2: intentional pump, which I just like, I don't think funny.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how can you believe it? You can't believe it,
Speaker 2: But that's what Jerry says. Jerry, come on the show,
Speaker 2: tell us about Jack Russell. We need to know, Okay,
Speaker 2: Jack Russell one of the best werewolf names of all time.
Speaker 2: This looks so weird. I mean, we are huge fans
Speaker 2: of Michael Giaccino. Hre unbelievable composer, so I'm very excited
Speaker 2: to see him bring his talents to the visual language
Speaker 2: of the MCU. Also, we get the new banner here,
Speaker 2: which is the Marvel Studio special presentation, which is kind
Speaker 2: of this like seventies almost like boogie Nights looking thing,
Speaker 2: which I love because it's like, well, it's like really campy.
Speaker 2: Also probable confirmation here. I'm pretty sure that Laura Donnelly
Speaker 2: is playing Elsa Bloodstone, another massive Marvel horror character that
Speaker 2: we were all really sure that she would show up in.
Speaker 1: This Elsa Bloodstone who descends from a family of monster
Speaker 1: hunter and she's she's always kind of like hunting these
Speaker 1: dark monsters throughout the history of her appearance in the MCU.
Speaker 1: I do you think this takes place like here's I
Speaker 1: wonder if this doesn't take place in the fictional nineteen
Speaker 1: seventies of the MCU.
Speaker 2: I'm very interested to see so, she Holp. We cannot
Speaker 2: confirm this. We will be Oh, we will be able
Speaker 2: to confirm this tomorrow, but right now, I cannot confirm this.
Speaker 2: This is just something that we have been thinking about
Speaker 2: a long time. It seems like tomorrow this week, she
Speaker 2: Hope is going to confirm the notion that comic books
Speaker 2: exist in the MCU as the way of telling stories.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be surprised if because of how stylistic this is,
Speaker 2: this is a fictionalized version of something that happened in
Speaker 2: the MCU. It looks like are you or maybe it's
Speaker 2: some kind of moonlight situation where it's somebody's version of it.
Speaker 2: I love this notion of this special presentation as if
Speaker 2: it's not one hundred percent cannon. But it's so stylistically
Speaker 2: different to and it doesn't look You could show that
Speaker 2: to somebody and they and tell them it's not Marvel
Speaker 2: if you don't show them that. It's really abstract. It's
Speaker 2: very universal monsters, it's all shadows, it's Cabinet of Doctor Caligari,
Speaker 2: like German expressionism. It's really strange. I did not think
Speaker 2: they were going to go this hard with it. Also
Speaker 2: something that's very cool, these comics, brilliant comics. We're black
Speaker 2: and white. The Marvel Horror comics were black and white too,
Speaker 2: Ma Dracula, well Off by Night. So this is also
Speaker 2: very cool way of bringing that to life. And to
Speaker 2: have else a bloodstone, I mean, that's just a huge
Speaker 2: addition to the character. Even though she's like a relatively
Speaker 2: new character from like two thousand and one, she is
Speaker 2: a massive part of the Marvel Horror world. And was
Speaker 2: I right. I don't know if I ever specifically predicted this,
Speaker 2: but I have been manifesting it. This trailer does feature
Speaker 2: man Thing, Marvel's giant sized man Thing, the best name
Speaker 2: of any character ever, one of my all time favorite
Speaker 2: characters again part of that swamp thing, man thing. Those
Speaker 2: those are the two comparisons, another famous one. They're Doom
Speaker 2: Patrol and X Men. Just remember that one, guys, because
Speaker 2: it's going to become very relevant when the X Men
Speaker 2: come into the MCU. But yeah, man, thing, this is
Speaker 2: Marvel Horror is here. How does it play into the
Speaker 2: wider MCU is the big question.
Speaker 1: That's the big, big question. And we oh man gosh,
Speaker 1: I am very excited to find out the shee Hilk
Speaker 1: mid season trailer has arrived. Not that we needed it,
Speaker 1: but we got it, and folks, she Hill continues to
Speaker 1: be super fun. Yeah, it's great.
Speaker 2: And Dead Evil's going to be in it, which we
Speaker 2: kind of knew, but this is like more confirmation in
Speaker 2: case you were worried because he hadn't turned up after
Speaker 2: four episodes, but Matt Murdock is going to be in
Speaker 2: Dad Evil. Good for Matt Murdock. He was also there
Speaker 2: talking about Dead Evil born again at d twenty three,
Speaker 2: saying some very sweet things.
Speaker 1: Love that very exciting, very exciting. Uh. Next up, Captain
Speaker 1: America New World Order has some of the cast confirmed.
Speaker 1: First of all, of course, Anthony Mackie returning to Sam Wilson,
Speaker 1: Captain America. Folks, the Leader is back.
Speaker 2: We've been waiting.
Speaker 1: We've been waiting for the Leader to return. We've been saying,
Speaker 1: just he's gotta come back. At some point we were
Speaker 1: wondering we was gonna be she Hulk. Well, folks, it's
Speaker 1: going to be Captain America, New World. It could still
Speaker 1: be she could still be shed.
Speaker 2: But he's back.
Speaker 1: We were right.
Speaker 2: He's coming back with his big old head.
Speaker 1: Another looks like long Head.
Speaker 2: We are on the DC Marvel rip off train today
Speaker 2: because this motherfucker looks like Sinestro from Really But yeah,
Speaker 2: Sammuel Stens is the Leader. Tim Blake Nelson is such
Speaker 2: a fantas plastic character actor, so I'm just really excited
Speaker 2: to see that.
Speaker 1: This will also be the debut of Sabra, the Israeli
Speaker 1: superhero played by Shira has Karl Lumbley as Isaiah Bradley, the.
Speaker 2: First Captain America. That's pleased absolutely in the canon because
Speaker 2: they don't mention it in the MCU but in the.
Speaker 1: Comics, and Danny Ramirez as the Falcon the New Folk.
Speaker 2: That is a huge That's that's a really big bit
Speaker 2: of news.
Speaker 1: I feel like I agree. I agree, because we didn't
Speaker 1: really get a lot of We didn't get a lot
Speaker 1: of Joaquin in the show, and we certainly didn't get
Speaker 1: a didn't get any kind of inkling of disabilities. So
Speaker 1: this will be very this is going to be this
Speaker 1: is huge, This is a big deal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've talked a lot about the Superstar just sermon
Speaker 2: today already, and I think this is this casting announcement
Speaker 2: proves to me that Captain American New World Order is
Speaker 2: going to continue the power broker esque storyline from Falcon
Speaker 2: and the Winter Soldier, and it's obviously going to be
Speaker 2: about super soldiers because you have Isaiah Bradley, who in
Speaker 2: the MCU was one of the first people who was
Speaker 2: tested on with the super Soldier Seerum, but in the
Speaker 2: comics was the first Captain America who was out on
Speaker 2: the field in the Yeah, just one of the best
Speaker 2: comics ever read, ever written. They recently actually republished it
Speaker 2: for the first time in like ten years, so go
Speaker 2: and see it. Truce, Red, White and Black. Yeah, just
Speaker 2: absolutely brilliant. And having Isaiah there, having the leader there
Speaker 2: who we suspect might be the one who's trying to
Speaker 2: get she hulks Blard, which in this case is connected
Speaker 2: to the Super Soldier syreum because in the Incredible Hulk
Speaker 2: movie from two thousand and eight, we learned that Bruce
Speaker 2: gets his powers much like the Ultimate's comics. Thank you
Speaker 2: producer Chris for that one. That's where he gets his powers.
Speaker 2: Is trying to replicate the super Soldier serum, but instead
Speaker 2: of using gamma ray, instead of using Vita radiation like
Speaker 2: the original method, he changes it for gamma radiation. Bad pan.
Speaker 2: So this is a super Soldier Serum as story. Now,
Speaker 2: the interesting thing is in the comics, Sober is a
Speaker 2: mutant in this is she going to get her powers
Speaker 2: from the Superstldier serum or is she going to be
Speaker 2: a mutant.
Speaker 1: It's interesting, you know we've okay, we've got obviously Kamala
Speaker 1: con is a mutant, right, Okay, we have that. The
Speaker 1: question is, and you know, we could argue about whether
Speaker 1: her powers are are you know, what portion of her
Speaker 1: powers come from mutation, what portion come from the.
Speaker 2: Bank also have naturally occurring powers.
Speaker 1: Wanda also has naturally occurring powers, But who is going
Speaker 1: to be the first Like like they are a mutant,
Speaker 1: their powers are derived purely from mutation, and we know
Speaker 1: that's what it is. Everybody knows what's what it's that
Speaker 1: and there's no secondary factor like the ability like magical powers,
Speaker 1: which again Wanda is part of humutation is her ability,
Speaker 1: her affinity for magic. But it is something else, is
Speaker 1: a kind of inherent power that is that resides in
Speaker 1: their own DNA and isn't something that is like amplified
Speaker 1: by an outside power source. And I do wonder will
Speaker 1: it be sobeer, will she be a mute? It's a
Speaker 1: good question. I don't know the answer. Other news, khe
Speaker 1: kwon as a TV agent in Loki season two.
Speaker 2: I feel like I love this because they were like,
Speaker 2: he is a TVA agent. I'm sorry, after after everything
Speaker 2: everywhere all at once and prior to his inevitable oscar
Speaker 2: win that is coming. He is not just playing a
Speaker 2: TVA agent. That is something major character is something else.
Speaker 2: And also the TVA is obviously going to become a
Speaker 2: big part of this, not just because we got Kang
Speaker 2: stuff down the line, but even in wellwalf by Night
Speaker 2: there were TVA agents with their time batons. So this
Speaker 2: is a very big part coming and I was so
Speaker 2: happy to see this. I love Kihae Kwon. I love
Speaker 2: everything ever all wants. I love Aniana Jones, I love
Speaker 2: the Goonies icon Happy He's there?
Speaker 1: Uh, is there any Is there any world in which
Speaker 1: he plays? He's like a He's like a hero undercover
Speaker 1: that eventually is revealed as a hero.
Speaker 2: Though, is if there is any justice in the world
Speaker 2: and they know what they have by being able to
Speaker 2: cast him, I think that's what it has to be.
Speaker 2: He doesn't. You don't just cast him as a as
Speaker 2: a TVA agent. You cast him as someone who's there
Speaker 2: with a motivation that becomes an ally to Loki, who
Speaker 2: at some point you reveal has powers or some kind
Speaker 2: of longer running space within the MCU.
Speaker 1: Up next, Matt Shackman confirmed to direct It's the Fantastic
Speaker 1: Four movie. No casting announcement, no trailer, no nothing, just
Speaker 1: that Matt Schackman will be the director. Congratu, Yeah, congrats
Speaker 1: to him. According to Justin Croll on Twitter, quote, Feigy
Speaker 1: for the most part does not want to make big
Speaker 1: casting decisions without getting input from his director, which I
Speaker 1: think seems whyse Of course, there were a ton of
Speaker 1: rumors flying before d twenty three, but we'll wait to
Speaker 1: see what emerges from there, but just terribly exciting that
Speaker 1: we are on the road to a Fantastic four movie.
Speaker 1: Of course, we saw the logo some months ago, but
Speaker 1: this is super exciting new Wakanda Forever Black Panther footage
Speaker 1: and we get an idea of what the plot is about.
Speaker 1: Here from Clyder is a description quote in the exclusive
Speaker 1: clip shown to the audience, We see Queen Ramonda arrive
Speaker 1: at the United Nations with a group of men. They sit,
Speaker 1: The men push their microphones down, spotlighting the Queen's presence
Speaker 1: in the room. Are represented from the US starts to
Speaker 1: complain about the fact that Kana has not shared their
Speaker 1: vibranium with the world, and a French representative similarly speaks up,
Speaker 1: saying that vibraanium has the potential be a weapon of
Speaker 1: mass destruction because the material can't be detected by metal detectors.
Speaker 1: It has to be shared for the sake of global security.
Speaker 1: But despite these dramatic declarations, Ramona makes very clear why
Speaker 1: what Condims do not trade vibranium and never have, never will.
Speaker 1: It is their policy to never trade vibranium under any circumstances,
Speaker 1: not because of the danger of vibranium, but because of
Speaker 1: the dangerous potential of outsiders using this material, and so
Speaker 1: here again, one thing that's extremely clear, you know, it's
Speaker 1: been kind of I think one of the kind of
Speaker 1: criticisms or at least, you know, complains that people have had,
Speaker 1: is like, what is the what is the MCU about now?
Speaker 1: What phase we are and what is the general direction?
Speaker 1: The general direction is as we're seeing with Armor Wars,
Speaker 1: as we're seeing with Wakanda Forever, as we're seeing with
Speaker 1: Secret Wars into Thunderbolts, is all of this stuff is
Speaker 1: out there. The armor Tony Stark's armor is out in
Speaker 1: the work world, Vibranium is leaking out, and governments are
Speaker 1: concerned about it. People that are uncontrollable have superpowers now
Speaker 1: and now is like the reaction from the rest of
Speaker 1: the world towards the revelations that have happened in the
Speaker 1: previous phases. I think this is really a super smart
Speaker 1: take on a Black Panther sequel.
Speaker 2: I think it's really really clever. I'm very interested to
Speaker 2: see the way they go with this, because the whole
Speaker 2: point of Wakanda originally was like what if this space
Speaker 2: existed that had never been colonized, that had never been destroyed,
Speaker 2: that had never had its resources drained and stolen, you know,
Speaker 2: so to them put them in this position where exactly
Speaker 2: that is has potential to happen, and it will also
Speaker 2: we know that in this world T'Challa is dead. We
Speaker 2: know that that will be happening Name in Black Panther two,
Speaker 2: that he will die. People see it as a power vacuum,
Speaker 2: and that is going to encourage Wakanda to make the
Speaker 2: tough decision of who the next Black Panther will be.
Speaker 1: I wonder what triggers name Or's attack on Wakanda. Is
Speaker 1: it like is he a hired gun? Is somebody like
Speaker 1: did you like did they contact him and be like
Speaker 1: go in there steal a vibranium?
Speaker 2: Like I think. I think what it's going to be
Speaker 2: is like if if people know about this one secret
Speaker 2: place that has vibranium, that has these resources, then are
Speaker 2: they putting other secret places at risk? Like we could
Speaker 2: definitely also have had a situation where Naymoor and to
Speaker 2: Challa knew each other and had made a vow to
Speaker 2: never reveal the secrets of where they come from. You know,
Speaker 2: so I'll be very interested to see. Also, this is
Speaker 2: old from an old leaked description that was to do
Speaker 2: with the casting, but there was also notions of somebody
Speaker 2: who was looking for not only vibranium, but they were
Speaker 2: going around searching out almost secret locations, including Antarctica, which
Speaker 2: is one of the other places you can find vibranium,
Speaker 2: which is where the Savage Lands are. So I wonder
Speaker 2: if it's going to be this notion of the world
Speaker 2: has realized, sort of like what happens in the in
Speaker 2: the Zeros x Men movies, but in terms of people,
Speaker 2: the world has realized there is a segment of society
Speaker 2: that they have never seen. Yeah, and if that is
Speaker 2: the case, then they are going to want the things
Speaker 2: that they can get from that society. So yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: very interested to see this. I'm also really interested to
Speaker 2: see like how re Re ties in like iron Heart,
Speaker 2: because that's a character we love so much, and it's
Speaker 2: clear that she is going to be a major part
Speaker 2: of Black Panther, which is coming out before iron Heart,
Speaker 2: so it'll be interesting to see how retroactively then get
Speaker 2: her own show spinning out of Black Panther, rather than
Speaker 2: meeting her first in the TV show.
Speaker 1: There was a sizzle reel from Ironheart featuring a logo
Speaker 1: reveal Dominique Thorne will be Ruy Williams and we get
Speaker 1: the antagonist. The reveal of the antagonist Anthony Ramos as
Speaker 1: the Hood so Cool which has been confirmed by Kevin
Speaker 1: Figley and Ryan Cooler. So the Hood Parker Robbins is
Speaker 1: he's just like a small time criminal who like mugs
Speaker 1: a demon and it takes the demon's hood and the
Speaker 1: hood is magic. And next thing, you know, through this
Speaker 1: and through the ability to wield magical powers, now he
Speaker 1: becomes like a crime lord, like a big time magical
Speaker 1: mashup mafia figure who becomes who was for a time
Speaker 1: during the Dark Rain days like a real mover and
Speaker 1: shaker at like the highest levels of villaindum like in
Speaker 1: the in the Marvel comics.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and something that came out of this as well
Speaker 2: was this notion of science versus magic, which you kind
Speaker 2: of touch on that. So I think if you look
Speaker 2: at the way that these things are going, we have
Speaker 2: doctor Strange who's now a three eyed cosmic magic man
Speaker 2: in space with clear and then we have the Wakandans
Speaker 2: dealing with having the most high tech science and technology
Speaker 2: in the living known universe. Probably. I think that that
Speaker 2: clash that they're seeding in iron Heart of this notion
Speaker 2: of science versus magic is going to become a major
Speaker 2: thing going forward. Another thing, we don't have a lot
Speaker 2: of info about it because they didn't show they didn't
Speaker 2: tell us about it much, but they showed a Marvel's trailer,
Speaker 2: and I just want to touch on it because there
Speaker 2: was something that was really interesting in the trailer, which
Speaker 2: is apparently it's not just Kamala and Carol who are
Speaker 2: switching places, it's also Monica, and it's the three of
Speaker 2: them throughout the movie that are allegedly going to be
Speaker 2: switching places to do with the bands and their powers.
Speaker 2: So I think that that is very interesting and that
Speaker 2: is apparently going to be the major conflict. So I'm
Speaker 2: very excited to see that trailer whatever they decide to
Speaker 2: release it.
Speaker 1: Now, when I think of the Hood, I immediately think
Speaker 1: about his relationship with Madame mask Yep, and I wonder,
Speaker 1: who is a masked super villain, kind of like a
Speaker 1: super soldier type super villain, the daughter of Count Nefaria,
Speaker 1: and I want and I wonder if they would bring
Speaker 1: that into it, that would be pretty much well.
Speaker 2: Also as well, if you think about it. In the
Speaker 2: Hawkeye comics, they have the reveal that Madam Mask is
Speaker 2: connected to Kate Bishop and we might have already met
Speaker 2: a version of her. So, seeing as this is another
Speaker 2: TV sh I'll be very interested to see if they
Speaker 2: kind of tie that together, especially because really, if they
Speaker 2: are going to do a Young Avengers will likely be
Speaker 2: the Iron Man analogue like Iron Lad was in the
Speaker 2: original Young Avengers lineup, So I'd be very interested to
Speaker 2: see how that connects the Hood. And now the character
Speaker 2: looks very similar to DC's Hood, otherwise known as the
Speaker 2: man who had become the Joker in the old Killing Joke. Well,
Speaker 2: they're really getting the duality today.
Speaker 1: I know. Last couple of MCU things. Charlie Cox says
Speaker 1: of Daredevil Born Again that this is whether it's a
Speaker 1: reboot or not or what they're calling it, it's a
Speaker 1: season one, not a season four. So what I took
Speaker 1: that to mean is they're going to pick and choose
Speaker 1: the things that they like from the Daredevil Netflix series
Speaker 1: and those are going to be part of his backstory,
Speaker 1: and then other things that they don't like. They're not
Speaker 1: necessarily like the Defender, Like did he ever join the Defenders?
Speaker 1: Probably not, you know what I mean? But did he
Speaker 1: fight the Kingpin?
Speaker 2: Yes? This is another thing where we were kind of
Speaker 2: I would say we were right because this was we
Speaker 2: basically thought they were gonna do what they did with
Speaker 2: the Offrio, where they reimagine him for the MCU, they
Speaker 2: make him more super heroic, they make his powers different,
Speaker 2: and be very interested to see how they visualize Dead
Speaker 2: Evil's powers when he re enters the MCU in a
Speaker 2: more significant way.
Speaker 1: And then and then Armor Wars was just it was
Speaker 1: already confirmed, but now they're reconfirming.
Speaker 2: It because you worried after the timeline.
Speaker 1: Uh. And this, yeah, this feels of a piece with
Speaker 1: Secret Invasion with Thunderbolts, like all like obviously we see
Speaker 1: Don Chietell in Secret Invasion. It'll be fascinating to see
Speaker 1: how that stuff all ties together. And it really feels
Speaker 1: like at least for some of these things, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: Secret Invasion, Thunderbolts, Armor Wars were kind of forever you
Speaker 1: know the thing that people were kind of saying about
Speaker 1: Phase four, it feels like fragmented, what's it about? Where
Speaker 1: are we going? It feels like there's some real thematic
Speaker 1: cohesiveness to to the stuff that has been announced and
Speaker 1: the directions they're taking. Yeah, Star Wars News Mando season
Speaker 1: three trailer, Folks, I love me some Mando.
Speaker 2: It's the good stuff. Everybody loves the baby.
Speaker 1: Where's the baby? Let me see the baby, Get the
Speaker 1: baby back. How's the baby's training going? I don't care
Speaker 1: as long as the baby is involved. Give me the baby. Notably,
Speaker 1: we're gonna see a lot more Mandalorians this time around.
Speaker 1: We're gonna see a bigger cadre of Mandalorians as Mando
Speaker 1: learns more about the culture that he comes from. Uh,
Speaker 1: and the baby is there. The baby is there, folks.
Speaker 2: We're gonna reunite. There's gonna be it's gonna be good.
Speaker 2: It's gonna be it's gonna be good. Important baby.
Speaker 1: Grief Cargo having a massive come up. He's wearing like
Speaker 1: beautiful robes.
Speaker 2: However in that role that is like, see, it's gonna
Speaker 2: be good. It's gonna be good. You know, we'll see
Speaker 2: it next year early next year will probably come along
Speaker 2: much sooner than we thought.
Speaker 1: And then the final and or trailer has been revealed.
Speaker 1: The there are screeners out now which I haven't seen yet,
Speaker 1: but I'm excited to watch. Starring Diego Luna of course
Speaker 1: as Cassie and Andorge and Viva Riley is man Mathma.
Speaker 1: I love what a heron. Wow, another come up, another
Speaker 1: character that could have.
Speaker 2: Been lost to the footnotes of history but instead became
Speaker 2: a major player, legend and a hero.
Speaker 1: And and Forrest Whittaker repriasing his role as sage Era lies.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing about Sager. I've said it many times.
Speaker 1: They'll say to him, I think he I don't think
Speaker 1: he gets the credit he deserves. Did he go to
Speaker 1: did he go too far at times?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I think so. He was fighting space Nazis, and I
Speaker 1: will say that, you know, uh, extremism in defense of
Speaker 1: space democracy is no vice. And Forrest I love his
Speaker 1: performance that Sagerera was like out there by him saying
Speaker 1: before anybody was like, oh, the Empire, we need to
Speaker 1: do something. Saw Guerrera was saying, we need to do
Speaker 1: something with the Empire. We need to get together, we
Speaker 1: need to fight them. We to stop them, because they're
Speaker 1: not going to quit. They're going to keep expanding, They're
Speaker 1: going to keep putting their boot on people's necks. There's
Speaker 1: no place in this galaxy you can run from them.
Speaker 1: We need to fight. And I'm delighted that Sagerera is
Speaker 1: back in my life. So we're going to see some
Speaker 1: original Clone Troopers. I'm excited to start watching this, very excit.
Speaker 1: Tales of the Jedi trailer dropped, folks. Good. I don't
Speaker 1: know what he's making.
Speaker 2: An animated show me about all the characters that you like,
Speaker 2: Doku are So it's gonna be six original shorts allegedly
Speaker 2: is what they're calling it. I don't know what that means,
Speaker 2: but I know we're gonna watch it because we love Rebels,
Speaker 2: we love Clone Wars, we love the Star Wars animated series.
Speaker 1: That is knows what he's doing.
Speaker 2: That's why he's now basically in charge.
Speaker 1: Yeah, watching my reaction to this was good. And then oh,
Speaker 1: things of huge note. We must say this.
Speaker 2: This was such a big I can't believe they like
Speaker 2: slid this one in at the last minute. Everyone has
Speaker 2: been talking about for like five hundred years.
Speaker 1: So anybody who listens to this and listened to us
Speaker 1: on various other podcasts know that we love Rebels. You know,
Speaker 1: I think it's I think you could argue that it's
Speaker 1: the best Star Wars actually that there is is Rebels
Speaker 1: definitely the.
Speaker 2: Best final episodes of any TV shows.
Speaker 1: They just nail it. They absolutely nail it.
Speaker 2: The landing, they nail it.
Speaker 1: They nail it, and uh, you know, one of the
Speaker 1: main characters is young Jedi padawan Ezra Bridger, who at
Speaker 1: the end of the run of Rebels, we are unsure
Speaker 1: what happens to him? Are where he is? And the
Speaker 1: Ahsoka series of course is coming and we it was
Speaker 1: announced that Emanis Fondi will join the Ahsoka series as
Speaker 1: Ezra Bridger. This is huge news.
Speaker 2: This is what the fans have been waiting for.
Speaker 1: This is we we people have been clamoring for us
Speaker 1: the Ahsoka series being where is Ezra? Literally find Ezra.
Speaker 2: Maybe the most fan casted role, absolutely in Star Wars,
Speaker 2: but maybe in general. Like the fact that Ezra fans
Speaker 2: are here, They're loud, they love him and they right
Speaker 2: to do so. And yes, this is very exciting. I
Speaker 2: felt like I was laughing because I felt like this
Speaker 2: should this was like up there with any of the
Speaker 2: other casting, but it was kind of hued in. So yeah,
Speaker 2: this is this is really big and I'm very and
Speaker 2: I mean it is like picture perfect casting. Oh when
Speaker 2: you see the two of them together, you just wow.
Speaker 2: It's absolutely great and fucking I can't wait.
Speaker 1: I can't wait. I'm so excited that they're gonna do this.
Speaker 1: It's really crazy that they're gonna do this.
Speaker 2: It did it. It didn't feel you got to remember, right,
Speaker 2: especially with Rebels, And I know we could do a
Speaker 2: whole mini series just on. But like when Rebels came out,
Speaker 2: like people did not like the animation style. It took
Speaker 2: people a long time to get into it. They felt
Speaker 2: like it was basic compared to Clone Wars. They also
Speaker 2: didn't like that it was new characters. It is so
Speaker 2: influential and so brilliant, and rewatches so well, and it's
Speaker 2: such a fantastic piece of sci fi storytelling and Star
Speaker 2: Wars storytelling and animation and cartoon. It's it's so good.
Speaker 2: And it feels absolutely bonkers to be in a world
Speaker 2: where there are Rebels characters being adapted.
Speaker 1: It's so crazy. I mean, it is truly nuts that
Speaker 1: is happening. Not to mention that was like some of
Speaker 1: the best Darth Vader stuff, you know, post Anakin Darth Vader.
Speaker 1: His reunion with Ahsoka is like is spine chilling stuff,
Speaker 1: and particularly you know, first season is good, and then
Speaker 1: they absolutely nail the ending of their first season and
Speaker 1: then if you haven't watched it, at least get to
Speaker 1: the end of season one and then I guarantee you
Speaker 1: if you like the Star Wars, yeah, seasons two, three,
Speaker 1: four are just gonna be like going into hyperspace speed.
Speaker 1: That's what you don't feel like because it's just great stuff,
Speaker 1: emotional storytelling, group of characters that you care about, real
Speaker 1: like heartbreaking steaks, fun droids, incredible adventures, and just really
Speaker 1: really great Star Wars st Droids. That's great Droids, all
Speaker 1: Time Droids, Topper and All Time Droid and so very
Speaker 1: very excited that we're continuing the story in the Ahsoka series.
Speaker 1: Bad Batch Season two coming out January fourth, twenty twenty three.
Speaker 1: Great and some Young Jedi Adventures. Casting announcementstermal Avery Junior,
Speaker 1: Emma Berman as Ky Bright Star, and Nash Durango. Lots
Speaker 1: of great Star Wars stuff, man, a lot of content,
Speaker 1: just lots of news. Up next she Hill episode five.
Speaker 1: You've been asking for it, You've been wondering where it is.
Speaker 1: You've been saying, I have nothing to carry my groceries
Speaker 1: in while folks get excited because x ray Vision is
Speaker 1: launching its first ever merch collection and it's available now
Speaker 1: at the Crooked Store. House of the Dragon is hear,
Speaker 1: Lord of the Rings, Rings of Power is here. That
Speaker 1: means fantasy is back. Has it ever gone anywhere?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Fantasy is still here, but now it has revealed itself
Speaker 1: to you, and this merch drop is all about celebrating
Speaker 1: the return of some of our favorite fantasy series. Grab
Speaker 1: a tote or tea featuring an illustration by artist and
Speaker 1: comic book colorist Felipe Sobrero at Crooked. We're super fans
Speaker 1: of voting, so as always, a portion of the proceeds
Speaker 1: from every order in the Crooked Store will go to
Speaker 1: Vote Writers, the leading organization focused on voter ID. Head
Speaker 1: to Crooked dot com slash store to check it out.
Speaker 1: We're stepping out of the air lock and into the
Speaker 1: courtroom for Sheehl episode five titled Mean Green and Straight
Speaker 1: Ported to These Genes, written by former Hysteria co host
Speaker 1: Danish Schwartz and directed by Anuvalia Danas Schwartz, who's a
Speaker 1: wedding I recently attended Congratulations once again to Dana and Ian.
Speaker 1: Let's start with our recap. Jennifer Walters has a problem,
Speaker 1: and it's a sizable one. It's a big one with
Speaker 1: a big social media following and really really good branding.
Speaker 1: It is Titanya, the super influencer who Jen folded up
Speaker 1: in episode one. She has trademarked the Shee Hulk name
Speaker 1: and is releasing a line of branded products lip plumpers,
Speaker 1: beauty oils, some kind of shake for butts, and suing
Speaker 1: Jen to stop her from using her own name. It's
Speaker 1: time to get ligitious, folks. Meanwhile, Nicki and Pug hash
Speaker 1: out a deal. Niki will stand in line with Pugs
Speaker 1: so he can get two pairs of Iron Man threes,
Speaker 1: which is a nice payoff from the joke setup when
Speaker 1: Jen was surfing the internet and it was one of
Speaker 1: those one of those little blurb stories that it was
Speaker 1: like just a picture of the Iron Man threes above
Speaker 1: man with met clause fights in bar. Some nice little
Speaker 1: payoff there, and Pug in return, will take Nikki to
Speaker 1: his costume connect, his drip broker in order to upgrade Gen' strip,
Speaker 1: which is currently very very dry in the midst of
Speaker 1: a historic drought. Desert like very arid not dripping. Now,
Speaker 1: getting to the drip Broker involves buying knockoff Avengers merch
Speaker 1: in the back room of a Boba cafe and then
Speaker 1: pulling rank falsely claiming that Jen is Avenger. But you
Speaker 1: do what you gotta do, and eventually they do get
Speaker 1: to the secret headquarters of this costume fashion designer. Back
Speaker 1: at GLK and H, mister Holloway is annoyed because Jen
Speaker 1: lost control of her name and considering that he hired
Speaker 1: it be the super green face of the firm superhero
Speaker 1: Laud division, that is bad. He assigns the trademark case
Speaker 1: to Gen's colleague Mallory. Book Mal immediately goes on the offensive,
Speaker 1: saying we need to counter suit, We need to be aggressive,
Speaker 1: but also you need to not look like Joseph a
Speaker 1: Bank in the courtroom, and you need to get a
Speaker 1: better wardrobe. Nikki is on it. She gets Jen a
Speaker 1: meeting with Luke, top tier costume designer who makes ready
Speaker 1: to wear combat suits for a variety of secretive clients.
Speaker 1: Case goes to court and there are some early setbacks,
Speaker 1: but Mallory then calls Gen's match or dates to the
Speaker 1: stand where they testify that Jen's been using the name
Speaker 1: she Hulk on a regular basis, proving that there is
Speaker 1: a chain of ownership of the name she Hulk by
Speaker 1: Jen Walters. Case close Gen wins. Back at Luke's, Jen
Speaker 1: collects her form fitting and fashion forward superhero ware that
Speaker 1: we actually don't get to see her wear yet. I
Speaker 1: guess that's a reveal for the next episode, and we
Speaker 1: get a glimpse of Luke's work for another client. It
Speaker 1: is a yellow Daredevil helmet. Let's talk about Oh God,
Speaker 1: First of all, really cool that apparently so in the comics,
Speaker 1: the yellow suit is first like Daredevil wore the yellow
Speaker 1: suit originally and then went to the and went to
Speaker 1: the red suit, which then became the iconic suit, and
Speaker 1: you wore most of the time kind of like you know,
Speaker 1: sort of like Wolverine who had the yellow and blue
Speaker 1: with the little kind of like pointy details on the
Speaker 1: shoulder suit first and then went to the brown and
Speaker 1: tan suit, which then kind of became iconic for most people.
Speaker 1: I love that it was Luke that was like, we
Speaker 1: need to apparently, let's upgrade your fashion and get you
Speaker 1: the yellow suit.
Speaker 2: I need to ask you about this though, So yes,
Speaker 2: you know we talked with the D twenty three thing
Speaker 2: about what you know, good old Matt Murdoc himself, Charlie
Speaker 2: Cox said, he said, this is a season one, not
Speaker 2: a season four. So do you think oh, interestingly his
Speaker 2: first costume in the MCU. I don't think so. I
Speaker 2: think you're on the right track. But you make such
Speaker 2: a good point about the yellow suit and its origins,
Speaker 2: so maybe he did have the other suit. And this
Speaker 2: is that Luke I gave him that good reference. And
Speaker 2: this is kind of the also, you know something that
Speaker 2: you brought when we were prepping for this. This means
Speaker 2: Dad Devil has changed Taylor's Yes, we had men Potter
Speaker 2: before in the in the.
Speaker 1: Ex super villain Melvin Potter. I. I here's my take.
Speaker 1: I think that I agree. You're absolutely right. And but
Speaker 1: one thing we did say in that conversation about season
Speaker 1: it's a season one, not a season four, is that
Speaker 1: we think that they're gonna just that means they're gonna
Speaker 1: pick it.
Speaker 2: Definitely already Devil. He's already Daredevil one.
Speaker 1: And two.
Speaker 2: He's already Dared Devil, because how would he even.
Speaker 1: Get the appointment? Luke is yeah, yeah, yeah, Luke is
Speaker 1: Luke doesn't just work with anybody, and he wasn't gonna
Speaker 1: work with Jen until they were like, oh, she's an Avenger.
Speaker 1: So clearly Matt has made a reputation for himself as
Speaker 1: an active superhero already for him to even get the appointment,
Speaker 1: so we think he's working as daredof, which means oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and he's got the suit that he's already been using.
Speaker 2: And like you know, super producer Souldiers pointed out, he
Speaker 2: catches the brick in No Home, so he's using those powers.
Speaker 2: He's living the life. Yep, he's he's gonna But yeah,
Speaker 2: I love that they because they're kind of rebooting, it
Speaker 2: makes a lot of sense to have the yellow costume
Speaker 2: and Luke is obviously a steezy guy. This is also
Speaker 2: a very fun deep cut. This is pure she yock.
Speaker 2: Like there's probably no other show where they would introduce
Speaker 2: the Wrecking Crew, right, Like that was so fun and
Speaker 2: so this is very similar because Luke Jacobson is like
Speaker 2: a fashion mogul, but he's been in literally like three
Speaker 2: comics and he was in this. Really, this is like,
Speaker 2: this is the stuff I've actually been waiting for Marvel
Speaker 2: and the MCU to get into, which is the comics
Speaker 2: that Marvel made that were not necessarily straight superhero comics.
Speaker 2: So he's from Dakota, North which is like this super
Speaker 2: weird aes kind of like spy ish comic like Private Eye,
Speaker 2: very black widow looking, but it's not black widow. And
Speaker 2: Luke Jacobson is just like this funny fashion mogul. But
Speaker 2: what is really cool is he was created by Tony
Speaker 2: Salmons but also by Martha Thomas's who is like one
Speaker 2: of the premiere female comic book journalists. So it was
Speaker 2: very cool to see her get a shout out in
Speaker 2: the Creator Thanks. And this is very fun because it
Speaker 2: does what the MCU does best, which is this is
Speaker 2: taking a character whose name is important in the comics,
Speaker 2: but who doesn't necessarily have a built out world. And
Speaker 2: now Luke Jacobson, I would say if it had just
Speaker 2: been She Hulk, who, by the way he teases she,
Speaker 2: she asks for a suit, like a fancy lawsuit, and
Speaker 2: he said he made us something extra, so we can
Speaker 2: assume that's probably the purple and white. That's what I thought, right,
Speaker 2: because it was a little bit shorter too, and I think, sure,
Speaker 2: She Hulk, that's a big hero ironically like much more
Speaker 2: a list probably than a lot of the heroes that
Speaker 2: began their MCU in Phase one at the time. But
Speaker 2: I think with the Daredevil costume, we can assume that
Speaker 2: Luke is going to be like the force of who
Speaker 2: is making the suits for the heroes from here on out.
Speaker 2: Now Stark isn't around and we're getting more grassroots heroes.
Speaker 1: I agree with you, And I also think just to
Speaker 1: go back to what what do we think Daredevil has
Speaker 1: been daredeviling this whole time? Why would he get a
Speaker 1: suit on the West coast exactly? So like that, Okay,
Speaker 1: he's gotta have been he must have been doing it previously. Okay.
Speaker 2: So if that's the question, why would he get a
Speaker 2: suit on the West coast? Then this ties into one
Speaker 2: of our theories from earlier, which was about how in
Speaker 2: the Charles Saul Run when Jennifer needs help with this
Speaker 2: misterious case, she goes to see Matt, who is currently
Speaker 2: in San Francisco. So I wonder if that if we're
Speaker 2: gonna see Matt on the West coast, obviously, if he's
Speaker 2: in Cheeholk, it's unlikely she's gonna fly to New York
Speaker 2: for it, And it's nice to see the West Coast
Speaker 2: being represented in the MCU aside from Tony's hilarious Malibu
Speaker 2: like Thunderbirds mansion. So I wonder where we're going to see.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and of.
Speaker 2: Course ant Man, which by the way, could connect to
Speaker 2: this Dared Devil theory. So yeah, I'm very interested to
Speaker 2: see where we're going to see Dared Devil pop up.
Speaker 2: Is it just going to be something where they meet
Speaker 2: each other in the in Luke's offices? Is it going
Speaker 2: to be like a real play by play.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this, do they so? In the
Speaker 1: comics the Charles Sewell Run Wonderful Charles Sewellrun Those a
Speaker 1: the kind of main plot is about a case that
Speaker 1: Jen argues against Matt that we won't spoil because it's
Speaker 1: really good and if you ever want to read it,
Speaker 1: definitely read it. But they end up on opposite after
Speaker 1: hanging after having a wonderful day out hanging out, they
Speaker 1: end up on opposite sides of the courtroom for each other.
Speaker 1: Do they argue cases against each other? Do they argue
Speaker 1: at So?
Speaker 2: That would be so good, that would awesome because we
Speaker 2: see it happen.
Speaker 1: That would be really rad and it makes me wonder
Speaker 1: like what the case could possibly be. But I think
Speaker 1: that would be really cool.
Speaker 2: Also, I do think. Look, I know, I know that
Speaker 2: Tatiana and this is playing this like she's like this lawyer.
Speaker 2: She's obsessed with her work, like Jen is is very
Speaker 2: The dichotomy between and juxtaposition between Jen and Sheehock is
Speaker 2: obvious and there for a reason. But I I know
Speaker 2: that Charlie Cox everyone loves sexy, sad, dead evil who's
Speaker 2: been being but I do, and he is very handsome
Speaker 2: in that role. I love it too, It's great. But
Speaker 2: I also could easily see a world where when him
Speaker 2: and Gin when we see them to get like reconnect,
Speaker 2: they have met before, they have possibly dated before, which
Speaker 2: is very in the comics, but both in their non
Speaker 2: hero forms, and then that would make a really interesting
Speaker 2: conflict to go into that lawsuit together.
Speaker 1: Honestly, both very similar in the sense that they are
Speaker 1: work hard, play very hard kind of characters. Except you're right,
Speaker 1: Matt has that like catholic sadness all the time, where
Speaker 1: he goes everywhere he goes, it's just sad, whereas Jen
Speaker 1: is definitely the more gregarious and outgoing and like and
Speaker 1: big personality. Okay, So at the end of this episode,
Speaker 1: Jen wins her case and we see that Arthur was
Speaker 1: there for it, giving a kind of moral and emotional support.
Speaker 1: Arthur who she went on a date with in the
Speaker 1: previous episode, which I had. I had a thought after
Speaker 1: the end of the previous episode, and I wanted, I
Speaker 1: want to see where you're at with it. So Jen
Speaker 1: and Arthur have a wonderful date. They go have dinner
Speaker 1: and then some drinks, and then they go home and
Speaker 1: things go well and they are intimate. And then at
Speaker 1: the end and then the next morning, Jen comes down,
Speaker 1: she's in gen form, and Arthur is I think. He
Speaker 1: says he's surprised, and is clearly like whoa you know?
Speaker 1: And then leaves and it's a week. It's like a
Speaker 1: discordant note. He was clearly he was clearly a little
Speaker 1: confused at this. What is as a superhero or a
Speaker 1: person who changes form, what is Jen's duty to inform
Speaker 1: a partner about her alter ego. I found myself wondering
Speaker 1: about this, not that Jen necessarily was in the wrong,
Speaker 1: but it is definitely an emerging area of like superhero morality,
Speaker 1: because clearly her partner again was confused by it, and
Speaker 1: it had me thinking like, should Jen have said, Hey,
Speaker 1: by the way, I am also I also look like this.
Speaker 1: This is also what I look like.
Speaker 2: I found this to be. Yeah. I think this is
Speaker 2: one of the most interesting moral quandaries that the show
Speaker 2: had introduced, intentionally or unintentionally, because it is played where
Speaker 2: we are always seeing things from Jen's point of view,
Speaker 2: so the angle of seeing it there is oh, like,
Speaker 2: he likes this side of me, but not this other
Speaker 2: side of me, and that hurts. And in this, you know,
Speaker 2: in the lineup of terrible men she went on dates with,
Speaker 2: even there in the courtroom, he makes a point of saying,
Speaker 2: sheehowk is amazing.
Speaker 1: I really like she.
Speaker 2: But he also says Jen is not my type, you know.
Speaker 2: And I think that is very notable and also a
Speaker 2: succinct way of of setting up the problem of this,
Speaker 2: which is Jen is your type because Jen is sheehowk.
Speaker 2: But esthetically Jen is not your type. And did Jen
Speaker 2: make it clear? Because she she made that. The whole
Speaker 2: lawsuit this week hinges on the fact that she made
Speaker 2: a match of account as she Holped, she presented herself
Speaker 2: as she Holp, not as Jen what is the moral
Speaker 2: the morality around that of then presenting this other side
Speaker 2: of yourself. I think it's I think it's baby steps
Speaker 2: mistake on Jen's part, agreed, but I don't think so.
Speaker 2: I don't think Arthur is particularly in the wrong. I
Speaker 2: don't think he's shocked because he actually asks who Jen is,
Speaker 2: so he obviously didn't know.
Speaker 1: I think it's reasonable to I think his feelings are
Speaker 1: reasonable in that moment. I think that the main thing.
Speaker 1: I think you're right, it's baby steps in a mistake
Speaker 1: by Jen. At the same time, like, there's no like
Speaker 1: unlike the the as Guardian Elf who we met earlier
Speaker 1: in the episode, there's no there was no will to deceive.
Speaker 1: Jen was not trying to deceive anyone. Now. I think
Speaker 1: she as a person who is just getting used to
Speaker 1: and processing the fact that she has this alter ego
Speaker 1: now that is part of her self. There's also the
Speaker 1: fact that she is probably has not yet grappled with
Speaker 1: the fact that one she's a public person now but
Speaker 1: as she Hulk, not as Chen She's done numerous TV appearances,
Speaker 1: but as she Hulked talking about being she Hulk, whereas
Speaker 1: her Jennifer Walters persona is just like a workaday, anonymous
Speaker 1: person without a public profile, Unlike Tony Sarker, Steve Rogers
Speaker 1: some of these other heroes where people would reasonably know
Speaker 1: who they are, It's reasonable to assume that the people
Speaker 1: who went on a date with she Hulk would not
Speaker 1: know or immediately connect she Hulk to gen or even
Speaker 1: know how to start. How do you google it? If
Speaker 1: you because it's not been a long time since Jenna
Speaker 1: has been Sheeholk. If you googled she Hawk, would Jen
Speaker 1: Walters come up? It's unclearly, I think.
Speaker 2: I think because of the first episode where we saw
Speaker 2: where Jen's first public foray as Shee Hawk was as
Speaker 2: Jennifer Walter's in the courtroom, and then she transformed and
Speaker 2: fought Titania, I don't think it would take that long
Speaker 2: to google it. But I do think the point of
Speaker 2: the men going on the dates was they want the
Speaker 2: fantasy of Shee Hulk, So would they google it?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 2: I will say I did because I'm I am quite
Speaker 2: heavily on Arthur's side, and I do think that this
Speaker 2: introduces a very interesting moral quandary that I would love
Speaker 2: to see explored more about, Like the notion of how
Speaker 2: you present yourself and such. But I will say there
Speaker 2: is a quote from the date where she does tell
Speaker 2: him right in the middle of the lobby in front
Speaker 2: of everyone. I had to transform. It was so embarrassing.
Speaker 2: So she establishes there that is at least a transformation.
Speaker 1: The question is did she do enough?
Speaker 2: I feel like dynasty there, but like I also don't
Speaker 2: necessarily think he's just some shallow jerk because he like professional,
Speaker 2: who she went who he did go on.
Speaker 1: A date with. I think they clearly from the very
Speaker 1: moment that Arthur pears on the screen, are presenting him as, Oh,
Speaker 1: this is the good guy. He's interested in her. He's
Speaker 1: a kid, he's a child's that you know, I e.
Speaker 1: He's a generous, giving person. He's like, wants to know
Speaker 1: about her life. He's not just out here talking talking
Speaker 1: talking over her. And he's a kind, good looking, nice guy.
Speaker 1: And I agree with you. Again, I don't think Jen
Speaker 1: was trying to trick anyone. But I do think the
Speaker 1: question is did she do enough to really let him
Speaker 1: know completely who she is? Because yes, she mentioned a transformation,
Speaker 1: but is that enough? Because you again he was like, wait,
Speaker 1: who are you like? It's completely different person. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I think again, I just think it's a really I
Speaker 1: think it's an interesting thing to think about.
Speaker 2: I think you're you brought it up as a really
Speaker 2: good topic where you were like, this is an emerging
Speaker 2: problem that.
Speaker 1: We write, this is an emerging issue.
Speaker 2: And I think we will see more of it explored.
Speaker 2: We got the most extreme version, which is the light
Speaker 2: elf who is outwardly deceiving people and committing identity fraud
Speaker 2: against Meg thee Stallion. But like, this is this is
Speaker 2: the These are the slice of life, day to day
Speaker 2: issues that you have to navigate if you have an
Speaker 2: alter ego, especially if it is an alter ego that
Speaker 2: is based on transformation and changing the way you look.
Speaker 2: And we're going to see more of that as we
Speaker 2: get mutants, as we get scrolls. So I'm very interested
Speaker 2: to see that, and I was very interested to see
Speaker 2: Arthur be.
Speaker 1: Brought back at all.
Speaker 2: I didn't necessarily think that was something that was going
Speaker 2: to happen. So maybe there will be some kind of
Speaker 2: conversation or continuation of that art.
Speaker 1: That's how I felt is that there is going to
Speaker 1: be They're going to have a conversation about this, right,
Speaker 1: because why else have that moment where you know, there's
Speaker 1: a look that's shared when the case is kind of
Speaker 1: over where he kind of like they share this moment
Speaker 1: and it feels like there's more to be said, which
Speaker 1: I think is really interesting. I'm glad they're doing that apparently,
Speaker 1: if they do indeed do that, because again, this is
Speaker 1: like I don't necessarily think Arthur was wrong to feel
Speaker 1: weird about it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's how I feel about it too, Like
Speaker 3: I love that we get to perceive everything through Jen's
Speaker 3: eyes and this is like a gen centric show, But
Speaker 3: in that moment, I think there is a bigger conversation
Speaker 3: to be had.
Speaker 2: And I think something that the MCU has done and
Speaker 2: has expanded on throughout its years and has gotten really
Speaker 2: good at is looking at the kind of collateral damage
Speaker 2: of being a hero, right, whether it's in your personal life,
Speaker 2: whether it's in the more gigantic space of superheroics, and
Speaker 2: the damage that that causes on a financial or physical level.
Speaker 2: But I think this is a really interesting space where
Speaker 2: they can kind of expand that. So yeah, and it
Speaker 2: was interesting to see Mallory use that as a space
Speaker 2: to side with Jen, which is something that we haven't
Speaker 2: really seen because it's very they've very much been sort
Speaker 2: of peered against each other as the women in the
Speaker 2: law firm.
Speaker 1: It's also an interesting way, you know, because it with
Speaker 1: Bruce split personalities or just are kind of integral to
Speaker 1: his experience of the Hulk, both in the comics and
Speaker 1: the movies and the MCU less so, but in the
Speaker 1: comics like very dramatically, like the Hulk has different personas
Speaker 1: and there are different factions of Hulks within this Hulk
Speaker 1: schism of of Bruce's personality, and now Jen is having
Speaker 1: to grapple with she is Jen, right, She's She's the
Speaker 1: gen personality is dominant the whole time when she she Hulks,
Speaker 1: she is Jen. At the same time, the way that
Speaker 1: the world will perceive her and the way this lawsuit
Speaker 1: is is is making her interact with this new personality
Speaker 1: is as is she Hulk as a separate entity under Jen.
Speaker 1: And it's just like a fascinating thing to process. Like again,
Speaker 1: I don't think Jen wasn't trying to trick anybody, but
Speaker 1: there's clearly a blind spot here in the thing about
Speaker 1: blind spot is you don't know it's there because you
Speaker 1: don't see it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm also very interested in what this means because
Speaker 2: in the comics, for the most part, Jen just chooses
Speaker 2: to stay as she Hulk and it generally has So
Speaker 2: I want to know if that journey. We're getting a
Speaker 2: lot of really fun visual gags here where like with
Speaker 2: like Tatiana in the giant suit when she's so tiny,
Speaker 2: it's so funny, Like I was always a cast big
Speaker 2: woman as she Holk kind of person, but in this show,
Speaker 2: the way that they represent it with the tiny woman,
Speaker 2: big suit, it's a very funny visual gag. But I
Speaker 2: am very interested to know if Jen will ever come
Speaker 2: to that place in the MCU like Bruce did with
Speaker 2: the Smart Hulk professor Hulk personality in her own way
Speaker 2: of feeling that she Hulk is the best representation of
Speaker 2: her or the person that she wants to be for
Speaker 2: most of the time. I'll be very interested to see that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder if we ever get to a point
Speaker 1: in shows in MCU, whether it's the shows of the
Speaker 1: movies where Jen is in che Hulk form for the majority,
Speaker 1: the vast majority of whatever the thing is, It'll be
Speaker 1: very interesting to see that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Also, so you kind of touched on how this you know,
Speaker 2: We're seeing this lawsuit in the kit in the courtroom,
Speaker 2: and it kind of becomes this more focus song Jen
Speaker 2: and obviously her dating life, but it is very much
Speaker 2: in the tradition of these lawsuits we've seen Jen fight,
Speaker 2: whether it's against you know, dead Evil or anyone else.
Speaker 2: It's very fun to see them leaning into that, like
Speaker 2: mundanity of the court cases that she casts to fight, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: she is a superpowered lawyer, but also cease and desist
Speaker 2: or trade the right. Yeah, yeah, And I thought that
Speaker 2: was really fun, and I especially liked the avanngs or Avengers,
Speaker 2: the fake Avengers merch.
Speaker 1: We got to get some of that merchant.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, somebody send us an Avenges hat.
Speaker 1: As Daredevil enters the MCU, you know, there has always
Speaker 1: been a really interesting tension in the comics, you know,
Speaker 1: and even in the Netflix series for sure, about Matt
Speaker 1: who is a lawyer that fights for the little guy
Speaker 1: and is incredibly passionate about using the legal system to
Speaker 1: defend people and defend people's rights, who at the same
Speaker 1: time breaks the law like every single night, every night
Speaker 1: as the vigilante Daredevil, destroying property, assaulting various people without
Speaker 1: an understanding of necessarily that they've committed a crime. You know,
Speaker 1: in the comics, one of Daredevil's like big techniques is
Speaker 1: he will just go into some like Kingpin connected bar
Speaker 1: and beat up everybody in sight to get information. He
Speaker 1: does this like on a regular basis, and it's interesting there,
Speaker 1: and there's always been that tension there. That's been part
Speaker 1: of why Daredevil is so interesting. Of he practices the law,
Speaker 1: he's very interested in the law, but he breaks the
Speaker 1: law every single night of the week. So I think
Speaker 1: I wonder if how much of that is going to
Speaker 1: enter into what we're seeing now because Jen, to be
Speaker 1: fair to her, isn't Jen doesn't do that. Not. Jen
Speaker 1: fights when it is necessary and when she has to
Speaker 1: defend herself. But she's not going into like a place
Speaker 1: and just busting it up to get you.
Speaker 2: She is not killing people on a regular basis because
Speaker 2: of her Catholic guilt, which Matt does. Like rite, Matt's
Speaker 2: chaining people to church roofs, he's eating people up, he's
Speaker 2: killing people, he's taken down gangs. He's ignoring the obvious
Speaker 2: wealth and health disparities in Hell's Kitchen that caused these problems,
Speaker 2: and he's just fucking people up. So yeah, I think
Speaker 2: that's a really great point. Also, so a running joke
Speaker 2: that we've seen from the earliest episodes. I think it's
Speaker 2: episode two where we first hear it, which is this
Speaker 2: idea that Jen has been rejected from the Avengers, and
Speaker 2: now there's this ongoing joke that Jen is going to
Speaker 2: be an Avenger or she needs to be an Avenger
Speaker 2: to get things done. Kevin Feige recently said at d
Speaker 2: twenty three that the Avengers currently do not exist, right,
Speaker 2: there's no Avengers. This feels to me like they're setting
Speaker 2: up Jen being in a version of the Avengers. Whether
Speaker 2: it's course, you know, which was the first all female
Speaker 2: Avengers team and Jen was the leader of the original
Speaker 2: version of it. I feel like the Avengers nods they're
Speaker 2: leading somewhere. This show doesn't do anything unintentionally, like what
Speaker 2: do you think.
Speaker 1: Oh, I mean, listen, Kate is heading to la we
Speaker 1: imagine at some point, right, yeah, I feel like there
Speaker 1: are a lot of threads leading us to the creation
Speaker 1: of a West Coast team. Whether they call that a
Speaker 1: West Coast Avengers team, I don't know, but a West
Speaker 1: Coast superhero team we understand, you know, Simon Williams is
Speaker 1: going to appear on the scene at some point with
Speaker 1: with Trevor Slattery, as we would assume his acting coach,
Speaker 1: you know, of some sort.
Speaker 3: Of course.
Speaker 1: So I think you're right. Wait, and I wonder if
Speaker 1: we're going to see that West Coast team come together
Speaker 1: Scott Langs. Scott is also out here on the West Coast,
Speaker 1: so I wonder if we're going to see that West
Speaker 1: Coast team before we see a quote unquote Avengers team.
Speaker 2: I think I think we're not going to see the
Speaker 2: Avengers until we get as they are the Avengers, you know,
Speaker 2: with the adjective list Avengers, until probably those two Avengers movies,
Speaker 2: and I think we know that they're going to be that,
Speaker 2: And I think you're right, We're going to see many
Speaker 2: different teams, and it feels like a West Coast team
Speaker 2: is very likely.
Speaker 1: I think that when we do get that Avengers team,
Speaker 1: obviously years from now, literally literal years, but I think
Speaker 1: that as we move in that direction, it would make
Speaker 1: sense to me that if Nick is still around, he
Speaker 1: will be in stru mental in assembling that team alongside
Speaker 1: alongside you know, war Machine. I think war Machine will
Speaker 1: be the coming off of whatever happens in Armor Wars
Speaker 1: is going to be like the not necessarily Tony, but
Speaker 1: the kind of government liaison, whereas Nick is going to
Speaker 1: be more of the outlaw.
Speaker 2: So I wonder, I wonder if this is so. I wonder.
Speaker 2: I think that Nick's one Samuel Jackson lost playing Nick
Speaker 2: Fury Fury until they stop letting him play Nic theory, Yeah,
Speaker 2: until he can't walk anywhere literally, So I think he's
Speaker 2: going to be around. I think his prominence and secret
Speaker 2: invasion means we're going to see him come back to
Speaker 2: the forefront. Now, I wonder if what we're going to
Speaker 2: see is Nick having to create a team to counteract
Speaker 2: the Thunderbolts, because he has already established a government shield
Speaker 2: funded Avengers, right, that's the Avengers we know from the MCU,
Speaker 2: So he would know what he needed in the team
Speaker 2: to take down the government funded heroes inverted commas of
Speaker 2: the Thunderbolts, and that would be very funny and could
Speaker 2: lead into some good comic book stuff because in the comics,
Speaker 2: the Contesta and Nick Fury have a love life that
Speaker 2: they want shed. It's very betrayal and spy heavy. So
Speaker 2: I wonder if we're going to get to see.
Speaker 1: We have to get that. I mean to think about
Speaker 1: I need Soper and.
Speaker 2: Samuel accent together. We need to have that, we have
Speaker 2: to have parents.
Speaker 1: Because here's the thing that if you could, here's the
Speaker 1: thing that we haven't got enough of than the mc U.
Speaker 1: It's that it is like it is couples that broke
Speaker 1: up that still have mess That's part of why I
Speaker 1: can't wait for the Mutants and for the X Men
Speaker 1: are coming, because that's the whole thing. And that's the
Speaker 1: whole thing. It's love trigles this one. These two were together,
Speaker 1: but also she's in love with him, and there's a
Speaker 1: whole thing. And you know, the these two are carrying
Speaker 1: on a long running psychic affair like that.
Speaker 2: It's like we need that in the MCU.
Speaker 1: And so and so I'm I'm I'm very very hopeful
Speaker 1: that Nick and the Contesta have a history.
Speaker 2: They can be the introduction to the MESSI romance. Okay,
Speaker 2: this is slight. This is now slightly off topic, but
Speaker 2: related to your tangent and it's X Men focus. So
Speaker 2: I think it's fine, but how likely. One of the
Speaker 2: most famous was a fan love triangle was a canon
Speaker 2: love triangle between a woman and two men Jean Gray,
Speaker 2: Cyclops and Wolverine. Yeah, that has now become a Cannon
Speaker 2: MCU potential polyamorous queer ship situation in the Krakoa Age.
Speaker 2: There is a very famous blueprint of the where they're
Speaker 2: all living, and the doors between Jean's rooms, cyclops room,
Speaker 2: and Wolverine's room they all open into each other's rooms.
Speaker 2: How likely do you think if we're talking about romantic
Speaker 2: mess obviously Gene Wolverine slash Gene Cyclops, that's going to
Speaker 2: probably happen if we get an older collection of those heroes,
Speaker 2: which I am leaning towards the idea that the teacher
Speaker 2: the mutants, who we know as the most famous X
Speaker 2: Men will likely be teacher age.
Speaker 1: That's what I think they're going to do.
Speaker 2: How likely do you think we're going to see them
Speaker 2: play into that with maybe like the adjoining rooms, or
Speaker 2: like the idea that it's the three of them, just
Speaker 2: like a little nod As age seems like it's going
Speaker 2: to be the influence for.
Speaker 1: The Krokoa Age is wonderfully Polly Nah. I don't know
Speaker 1: that they would do doors, but I think that they
Speaker 1: there has to be tension that is there for the
Speaker 1: fans to pick up on, like little things, little comments
Speaker 1: from Logan about about how happy Gene is, and that
Speaker 1: has to exist because you know, it's honestly just been
Speaker 1: such a part of the texture of those characters for
Speaker 1: basically as long as they've been around, Like for as
Speaker 1: long as Wolverine has been around, he's been in love
Speaker 1: with Jid Gray, like obviously talking about it all the time,
Speaker 1: and for at least that long he and Scott have
Speaker 1: been like butting heads about it. So it's got to
Speaker 1: be there in some form of fashion. I think it's
Speaker 1: got to be.
Speaker 2: I think about how good, how well played that was
Speaker 2: in the Zero's X Men between fam Key Ansen, Hugh
Speaker 2: Jackman and James Marsden, who is so brilliant as Cyclops.
Speaker 2: I actually think one of my favorite things now I
Speaker 2: think about it. I rewatched those movies like far too much,
Speaker 2: but I do always think about how the end of
Speaker 2: Days of Future Past. I think they understand diod that
Speaker 2: relationship even better than some comic book creators did, because
Speaker 2: at the end, after everything is done, Logan goes back
Speaker 2: and he opens the door of Charles's office and Gene
Speaker 2: is there, and Scott is there, but he's like so
Speaker 2: he's like crying when he sees that Scott is there,
Speaker 2: not just Jane. And I was just like, Okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: you guys get it. And this is like the the
Speaker 2: love triangle. So yeah, I'm very excited hopefully Nick and
Speaker 2: the Contessa can be the introduction to the romantic mess
Speaker 2: that we need. It's a bit more like the fun
Speaker 2: bantery mess than kind of the original mcu Avengers that
Speaker 2: was very focused on heroics less so on romance, you know,
Speaker 2: and when it did come it was it was kind
Speaker 2: of touch and go, So it will be nice to
Speaker 2: see that built in in a more extensive, fun way.
Speaker 1: That's it for us today. Rosie anything to plug.
Speaker 2: Yes, you can find me Rosie Marks on Instagram and letterbox.
Speaker 2: You can read my stuff at notice pollogon IGN and
Speaker 2: this weekend I will be at the Orange Public Library
Speaker 2: for their Comic Convention and I'll be doing a really
Speaker 2: cool panel with a brilliant bookseller from Mysterious Galaxy, who
Speaker 2: are friends of the Pod, who are big supporters of
Speaker 2: the work that we do here, and I'll be there
Speaker 2: with the table from eleven till four just selling my wares,
Speaker 2: talking about making comics all that kind of stuff, So
Speaker 2: feel free to pop on by and say hello.
Speaker 1: Catch the next episode of X ray Vision on September
Speaker 1: twenty third for more House of the Dragon she Helped,
Speaker 1: plus a return to a Galaxy Far far Away with
Speaker 1: the premiere of and Or, and of course, don't forget
Speaker 1: to send your House to the Dragon. Questions to ask
Speaker 1: themester at gmail dot com If you want to hear
Speaker 1: our full conversation on the House of the Dragon, plus
Speaker 1: the ESK the Master segment. Check out our first episode
Speaker 1: this week that is purely focused on House of the
Speaker 1: Dragon is right there in your podcast listening platform of choice.
Speaker 1: We want your five star reviews. Leave us your reviews,
Speaker 1: but they got to be five stars wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. If you like X ray Vision, please leave
Speaker 1: us that five star review. We love it, we need it,
Speaker 1: we gotta have it. X ray Vision is a Crooked
Speaker 1: Media production. The show is produced by Chris Lord and
Speaker 1: Saul Rubin. The show is executive produced by myself and
Speaker 1: Sandy's rhard Are editing and sound design news by Vascilla's Photopoulos.
Speaker 1: Dilon Villanueva and Matt Degroup provide video production support. Alex
Speaker 1: Rellaford handle social media. Thank you Brian Vasquez for a
Speaker 1: theme music, See you next time.
Speaker 2: Bye bye,