1 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 2: and speaker. 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 3: and course creator. We are two working parents who love 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 3: our careers and our families. 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about 8 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun, 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 2: from figuring out childcare to mapping out long. 10 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: Term career goals. 11 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life. 12 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: Welcome the best of both worlds. This is Laura. 13 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 2: This episode is airing in early March of twenty twenty six. 14 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 2: Sarah and I are sitting here together on the sofa 15 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: in my office. 16 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: Welcome Sarah, Well, thank you. 17 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 3: I am very excited. This is a friendship episode being 18 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 3: recorded live as friends, so it's perfectly appropriate. 19 00:00:58,720 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. 20 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 2: Absolutely, Sarah's up in Pennsylvania, as we mentioned in the 21 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,319 Speaker 2: last episode, for a combo family and skiing trip. I 22 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 2: mean the skiing is less exciting here than in Big Sky, 23 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,119 Speaker 2: but we do have little, tiny mountains and you can 24 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 2: ski down them, so you'll do a little bit of that. 25 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm super excited. I skied here growing up, so 26 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 3: I feel like they'll be a nostalgic fact. 27 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 2: You have memories of our little tiny mountains here. But 28 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: we also just took a little field trip to a 29 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 2: stationary store together. 30 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: That was an experience. 31 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 2: We drove to Doylestown, Pennsylvania to Department. 32 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 3: Of note Yes, because someone had written to me, Maria, 33 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 3: a listener of my podcast, about her sister's store, and 34 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 3: I think I texted Laura like, I kind of want 35 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 3: to make a pilgrimage there the next time we come, 36 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 3: and we made it happen. So, yeah, it was a 37 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 3: lot of fun. Got to meet the proprietor and talk 38 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 3: about all things notebooks and pens and little tiny stickers 39 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 3: and others such things that you sell in this kind 40 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 3: of place. Yeah, this episode is going to be about 41 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:59,639 Speaker 3: cultivating friendships, which we know is so challenging for people 42 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 3: during what we call the busy years, you know. 43 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 2: When you have building your career, you have young kids. 44 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 2: It is one of the topics we hear from people 45 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 2: about most because you know, people figure out like how 46 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 2: to make time for their jobs, they figure out how 47 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 2: to see their kids obviously because they're in the same house, 48 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: maybe even exercise sometimes, but friendships require coordinating with other 49 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 2: busy people, plus finding time. 50 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: So it's like this. 51 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 2: Added layer of difficulty that makes it even more challenging 52 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 2: but not impossible, which is what this episode is about. 53 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 3: And I also feel like it's one of the more 54 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 3: rewarding aspects of adult life, and so that's why I 55 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 3: think it's great that we're devoting a whole episode to it. 56 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 3: It's like some effort goes such a long way in 57 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 3: terms of fulfillment and happiness. So yeah, I'm super excited 58 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 3: we're talking about it. 59 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. 60 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 2: Absolutely, So the basic framework of this episode, we're going 61 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,959 Speaker 2: to share six insights about cultivating friendships, just sort of 62 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 2: talk about our thoughts on them, and. 63 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: Then we may possibly have a cameo from. 64 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 2: Another friend at the end of this episode, so stay 65 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: tuned for that. So the first insight is that friendships 66 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 2: actually don't have to take that much time. I mean, 67 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 2: it's awesome if you have a lot of time or 68 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 2: have a situation where you can be devoting a lot 69 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 2: of time to it. 70 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: But I always thought it was funny. 71 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 2: I had this sort of like entrepreneurs dilemma, like work, family, friendship, health, sleep, 72 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 2: choose two or something. It's like, Okay, these do not 73 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: all take the same amount of time, right, Like most 74 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 2: people are not spending forty hours a week with their friends. 75 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 2: I mean, you're not spending fifty six hours a week 76 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 2: on your health. How they're the sleep, you know. It's 77 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 2: just like these are not the same sort of things. 78 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 2: Like probably if you aimed for like four to eight 79 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: hours a month, so one to two hours a week 80 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: of friend time, that would be a reasonable amount. 81 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: To shoot for. 82 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 2: I mean, what do you think you're at right now, Sarah. 83 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's such an interesting question. And by the way, 84 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 3: that adage that you just mentioned, I hate that one 85 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 3: among the things we hate there. Yeah, I guess I 86 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 3: don't like to be told my limitations by others, Like 87 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 3: I will show you that that is not really you're wrong. 88 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 3: But I mean, some weeks are very low and then 89 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 3: other weeks are higher. But maybe it average is out 90 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,119 Speaker 3: to a couple of hours a week. I also feel 91 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 3: like friendship fits in the cracks a lot. I'll text 92 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 3: friends throughout the day, during downtime or just when I 93 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 3: think of them. I mean, today, when we saw the 94 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 3: stationary store, they had a bunch of great Gatsby stuff. 95 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 3: I had to text my book club, of which I 96 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 3: have friends in there because we're reading The Great Gatsbye. 97 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 3: So it's like the little things, but it's not like 98 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 3: that took a lot of time. And then a few 99 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 3: times a year. There's definitely some concentrated friendship time that 100 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,599 Speaker 3: we'll talk about later in the episode. And then I 101 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 3: feel like maybe every other week or so I have 102 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 3: sort of a friend dedicated outing on average. So yeah, 103 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 3: it's not a few hours a week, not totally time consuming. 104 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: What do you think? 105 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I would say it's probably a couple hours 106 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 2: a week. And I think if you're feeling like this 107 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 2: area of your life is sort of very lower, close 108 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 2: to zero right now, aiming for something like one to 109 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 2: two hours a week, four to eight hours a month 110 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 2: will help you feel like this is more achievable, because 111 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 2: if you think about it, that could be one two 112 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: hour dinner plus two one hour runs with a friend, 113 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 2: right or you go to a show with a friend 114 00:04:57,920 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 2: and that's like four hours and that could be sort 115 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 2: of your thing. 116 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: For the month. 117 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 2: I feel like, oh, I still have friendships in my life. 118 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 2: I still am spending time with my friends. It's not 119 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 2: going to be like your sorority in college. Ready together 120 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 2: ten hours a day, like, that's probably not this time 121 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 2: of life, but you. 122 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 3: Know, a little bit goes a long way, definitely, Like 123 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 3: I'm thinking about I don't know, we had a Super Bowl, 124 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 3: pard you don't have friends came Like, that's four. 125 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: Hours right there, right there. 126 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: So if you did that once a month or so, 127 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 2: you'd still be maintaining those relationships. The realization Number two 128 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 2: is that it is okay to be the planner. Now, 129 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 2: if you are listening to this show, the odds are 130 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 2: good that you are just much better at planning and 131 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 2: organizing things than other people. So it makes sense that 132 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 2: in your friendships, you might be the one suggesting getting 133 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: together and there may be some little voice in the 134 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: back of your head being like, shouldn't this be equals? 135 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 2: Shouldn't they be coming up with an equal number of 136 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 2: things that they're suggesting to me And I'm saying, yes, 137 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 2: let's go do that or whatever. But the problem with 138 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 2: that is that if you wait for that, it might 139 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 2: just not happen. 140 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: So if you. 141 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 2: Issue invitations and people keep saying yes, then don't second 142 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 2: guess they want to hang out, Right, Sarah, you are 143 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 2: often the planner. 144 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, so a listener of my afestlet Plans actually gave 145 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 3: me a new term for this, which is a friend rearc, 146 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:13,919 Speaker 3: which is when you have a friend group and you 147 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 3: just tend to be the one that brings everyone together. 148 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: You're the connector, you're the mother. Hen Yeah, and it's 149 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: okay to be the friend rearc. 150 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 3: Like own it and I agree, Like if people don't 151 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 3: like your efforts, then they'll stop saying yes. But often, 152 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 3: I mean my college friends and I we like to 153 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 3: get together usually every year and take a trip together. 154 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,239 Speaker 3: And that takes coordination and work, and I often feel 155 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 3: like I've got like a little bit of a cattle 156 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 3: prod and I'm like, okay, everyone who's got the dates? 157 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 3: But then once it's done, everyone's so excited. And the 158 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 3: truth is with six women with full lives and jobs 159 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 3: and partners and kids like this does take some planning 160 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 3: and someone's gonna have to drive the bus. 161 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 2: Yes, someone has to drive the bus. Well, that was 162 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 2: my realization of how your college friend group had managed 163 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 2: to keep getting together for so many years, and like 164 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 2: through the gone of you guys having children, which is 165 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,799 Speaker 2: often what sort of makes people do this less often 166 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 2: is that they had a Sarah, so I don't get. 167 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 3: All the credit, but I get at least some. 168 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: You get at least some. 169 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 2: So you could be the Sarah in your group and 170 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 2: just say I'm going to organize it. I'm going to 171 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 2: plan it. People have free will to say no if 172 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 2: they don't want to. You can always invite slightly more 173 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 2: people than you think will actually be able to come, 174 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 2: so you still have a good group of people if 175 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: you want to do things in groups, but you can 176 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 2: be the one organizing it. With that, you could be 177 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,679 Speaker 2: systematic about reaching out. I know a lot of listeners 178 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 2: of this show do a weekly planning routine. That would 179 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: be a really good time to look at your calendar 180 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 2: for the upcoming week or two and say, oh, what 181 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 2: am I doing with friends? Do I want to text 182 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 2: somebody to get together? Do I want to see if 183 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: people are around if I'm doing something they like to 184 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 2: join me for it, And possibly even get people on 185 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: a sort of regular cadence where you're seeing them whatever 186 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 2: it makes sense for you. Once a month, once every 187 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 2: two weeks, once a week. Different people works different ways. 188 00:07:57,560 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've made the month kind of a lot of 189 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 3: my social calendar planning. Lately, I figured out that works 190 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 3: best for things like date nights. And I haven't specifically 191 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 3: built in friend time in that, but I feel like 192 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 3: it would make the same sense because the month is 193 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 3: enough time that there's not like so much uncertainty about 194 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,559 Speaker 3: what's coming up, but it's enough time to plan ahead 195 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 3: for things, maybe a couple weeks out, so that can 196 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 3: be a nice time frames. 197 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 4: We'll come. 198 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, So if you plan in months that said time, 199 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 2: then you can book babysitters and things like that if 200 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 2: you need it. Or we're going to take a quick 201 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: ad break, and then we'll be back with more about 202 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 2: cultivating friendships. 203 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 3: All right, we are back, and we've been talking about 204 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 3: cultivating friendships. And realization number three is that busy people 205 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 3: are easier to kneel down if you're doing something productive together, 206 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 3: such as going to a workout class or taking a 207 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 3: walk or running or maybe recording a podcast. 208 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 2: That's right, we are seeing each other because we are 209 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 2: recording a podcast together. Not everone's going to do that, 210 00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 2: but having some sort of project that you do with 211 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:04,800 Speaker 2: a friend, like if the two of you always go 212 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 2: to gardening stores together, or you are singing in a 213 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 2: choir together, or you're playing in a handbell choir together 214 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 2: or running every other. 215 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: Week or something like that. 216 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 2: A lot of busy people want to multitask their friendship time, 217 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: and that's great, Like, as you become better friends over time, 218 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 2: you can put it more into just hanging out to 219 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: hang out. But especially as you're just getting to know someone, 220 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 2: thinking of a person as this is a person I 221 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,960 Speaker 2: do X with can help it feel like the friendship 222 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 2: has more legs and is going somewhere. This was a 223 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 2: great tip from Anna Goldfarb and her book Modern Friendship. 224 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 2: So she says to people saying I want more friends, 225 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 2: It's like, no, you want more friends to do X. 226 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 2: You want more people to go to classical music concerts 227 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:50,719 Speaker 2: with you, You want more people to walk with. You want 228 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 2: more people who like to do brunches on weekends, or 229 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 2: you like more people who will hang out at the 230 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 2: park with you and your kids. 231 00:09:58,160 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: But figure out what that. 232 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: Is and then you're looking for people that you can 233 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:03,319 Speaker 2: invite to do those things. 234 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 3: I am so into the walk and talk, especially because 235 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 3: while I love running. I'm gonna also just mention that 236 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 3: if you run and you're one of those people who's like, 237 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 3: I'm worried about running with other people because I'm self conscious, 238 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 3: like you should just try it, because I mean, I 239 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 3: cannot do it anymore, but it is such a wonderful 240 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 3: way to get that outside time. I don't know, the 241 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 3: endorphins help, the conversation flows like running friends are amazing, 242 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 3: So take advantage of that and try it. Don't be 243 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 3: scared if you do run. And if you don't run, 244 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 3: or if you walk or you want to spend time 245 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 3: walking calling a friend on the phone, you almost feel 246 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 3: like you're next to each other, and it's just such 247 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 3: a wonderful way to stay connected. And then also if 248 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 3: you're trying to check off getting in a little bit 249 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 3: of exercise or getting outside, you're like doing something productive 250 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 3: at the same time. 251 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 2: So and it might not matter if your friend runs 252 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 2: very different pace than you. I mean maybe if they're 253 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 2: like an Olympic sprinter and you are just starting out. 254 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: It might be more problematic. 255 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 2: But a lot of times people who are faster runners 256 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 2: do need to do some slower runs, and then you know, 257 00:10:58,400 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 2: your fast run could be their slow run. 258 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. 259 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 3: I used to run with a woman who runs like 260 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 3: at half marathons at six minute pace, and I never 261 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 3: did that, and it was fine. It was great, but 262 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 3: sometimes I did kind of have to let her talk. 263 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: You're like, I'm not talking because I can't right now? 264 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 2: That was okay. 265 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 266 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 2: So a realization number four here is that for people 267 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 2: who are really in the thick of it, spending time 268 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 2: together might be more likely if you don't take time 269 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 2: away from their kids. So, especially if you are in 270 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 2: a more flexible phase of life and you have a 271 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 2: friend who has really little kids or something like that, 272 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,080 Speaker 2: you can go to them and kind of try to 273 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 2: work on their schedule, and I think that could be 274 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 2: really appreciated and make the friendship keep going in a 275 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 2: way that it might not if you're always like, let's 276 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:47,839 Speaker 2: go get coffee together and she's like. 277 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: I can't. 278 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 4: Right. 279 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 2: So if she is like solo parenting to toddlers, you 280 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 2: could offer to go after kid bedtime to their house 281 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 2: and bring takeout with you, or offer to go do 282 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 2: some weekend activity with that person. Like if I was 283 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 2: talking with somebody recently who went skiing with a friend 284 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 2: who had young kids, and they was like a day 285 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 2: trip skiing, and that person was very glad to have 286 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 2: another adult with them, and so they spent time together 287 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 2: because it was not something that was taking them away 288 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 2: from the family. 289 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 3: No, we have really good friends in Miami Beach and 290 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 3: they have one kid, like we have Annabelle as like 291 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 3: the older kid, and then they have kids exactly Cameron 292 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 3: and Jenevie's age, and then they have a younger one. 293 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 3: So for the past few years he's like four now 294 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 3: so less so, but we have been coming to them 295 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 3: a lot more for that exact reason, like, Okay, it's 296 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 3: easier for us, and they're always looking to do stuff 297 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 3: to have fun despite having a young childer at home, 298 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 3: and it's been good now. 299 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 2: Of course, if you have kids around the same age, 300 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 2: trying to come up with something that you can all 301 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 2: do together, like I mean, yes, you're both chasing three 302 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 2: year olds around the bouncy. 303 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: Place, but you are doing it together. 304 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: I mean, it's still a way to spend time with friends. 305 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 2: You have a couple of friends who've had kids with. 306 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: The k percent. 307 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 3: I mean, I actually feel like that is like one 308 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 3: of the best ways to kind of get through those 309 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 3: tougher years is to find partners and friends. And I 310 00:13:08,280 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 3: mean I did so much solo parenting when the kids 311 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 3: were little, so especially if I had other friends and 312 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 3: also were doing solo parenting, it was always like, Okay, 313 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 3: where are we going to beet that's the best? 314 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, or even if they weren't, like that was the 315 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 2: time that they could take the kids and then their 316 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 2: spouse might trade off with them at some other points, 317 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 2: so it's like that was a plus to have time 318 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 2: with them. Yeah, and I did a lot of park 319 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: play dates, and especially when the kids are little, like 320 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 2: you can kind of force them to play with the 321 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,320 Speaker 2: people that you want them to play with. Later on, 322 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 2: they developed their own friendships totally. Yeah, So realization number 323 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 2: five is getting into Sarah's thing with her friends, her 324 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 2: college friends. You could try going big because if you 325 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 2: have the funds and some flexibility and I know a 326 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 2: lot of our listeners do, you can travel to go 327 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 2: see friends, or travel with friends to do something like 328 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 2: a weekend away together. And sometimes blocking off a big 329 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 2: chunk of time time feels more doable than little chunks 330 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 2: of time because you have to commit to it ahead 331 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 2: of time, and it's like, Okay, it's either happening or 332 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 2: it's not. If they say that's not happening, fine, But 333 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 2: once it is, then everything starts sort of filling in 334 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 2: and you make it happen, and. 335 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,960 Speaker 3: I feel like there's two. I mean, there's the trips 336 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 3: with kids, because I'm just going to put a plug 337 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 3: for like, when your kids are little and you're traveling, 338 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 3: if you have friends in the same stage where your 339 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 3: kids get along, that can be a really really fun 340 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 3: way to go big together. And like we went on 341 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 3: an Alaska cruise with friends. We had a blast, and 342 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 3: I think we all had more fun than we would 343 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 3: have kind of just wrangling our own kids and our 344 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 3: kids playing together kind of took off some of the heat. 345 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: So that's a way. 346 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 3: And then, of course, also the go big in terms 347 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 3: of like my college friend trips are just kind of 348 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 3: saying yes when those random friend opportunities might come around. 349 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 2: Which is why you just signed up to go to 350 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 2: a different sort of college reunion kind of thing. 351 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I got this email and I'm sitting at 352 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 3: work and it's like your a cappella groups having a reunion, 353 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 3: and I thought, oh, that's it's so cute. But I 354 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 3: can't do that because I don't know. Initially, I just 355 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 3: felt like that was just so superfluous, but something made 356 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 3: me not want to delete the email, and so I 357 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 3: actually afforded two of my friends who were one. 358 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: Class above me. 359 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 3: So people have stayed in touch with very inter mentally, 360 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 3: but I never get to see a reunions. And I 361 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 3: was like, you guys aren't going to this, are you. 362 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 3: And then one of them were back is like, actually 363 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 3: we are. And I was like, oh, I kind of 364 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 3: just want to do it. And then I realized I 365 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 3: could actually make this happen, Like this was not totally 366 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 3: out of the realm of reality, and it wasn't practical 367 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 3: and it wasn't convenient. But Laura said that if you 368 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 3: are trying to talk yourself out of something that you 369 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 3: want to do because it is inconvenient, it's a sign 370 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 3: you should probably just do it. 371 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I have this rubric that's like Okay, if you 372 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 2: get an opportunity and you start talking yourself out of it, 373 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 2: that is often a sign that you're really excited about 374 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 2: it and you want to do it, but it's like 375 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: going to be logistically complicated, and so you know like, uh, well, 376 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: I don't you know, Oh that would be so fun. 377 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 2: I have all this stuff going on with the or 378 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 2: I'd love to do that, but it's really busy at work. 379 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 2: Or I'd have to call in a favor from a 380 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 2: colleague or from my partner or whatever. But that's the 381 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 2: time you really want to do it, and it's just 382 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 2: a matter of logistics, and logistics are often solvable in 383 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 2: one way or the other. But the thing you got 384 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 2: to be wary of is those things where you're talking 385 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 2: yourself into stuff, like you don't initially want to do it, 386 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 2: and then you're like, oh, well it might be fun, 387 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 2: or maybe I haven't done that in a while, it'd 388 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 2: probably be okay. 389 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: You know. That's the lack of initial and excitement is telling. 390 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 2: By the time this errors will have taken a recent 391 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 2: trip that kind of came about last minute, where it's like, 392 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 2: founds out some friends would be in Boston, and of 393 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: course my oldest child goes to school in Boston. I 394 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 2: was like, well, I could make a trip and see 395 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 2: all of them, and booked a trip for Boston and 396 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 2: good times. You can make it happen if you want to. 397 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 2: And yes, you may need to make some arrangements with 398 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 2: the rest of your life, but often arrangements. 399 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: Can be made. 400 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 2: People may not love that you're having to make arrangements, 401 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 2: but people can deal. 402 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 3: I think your rubric is so interesting and I'm like, 403 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 3: as you're saying that, thinking about some things coming up 404 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 3: that I totally said yesterday, because I'm like, well, it's 405 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 3: not going to be that annoying. 406 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: It's not going to be that annoying. It's never a 407 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: phrase you should be uttering. 408 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:17,719 Speaker 3: I'll survive. 409 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 2: So yeah, we'll take one more quick ad break and 410 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 2: then we'll be back with the rest of this episode. 411 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:25,479 Speaker 1: And a surprise and a surprise. 412 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 2: Well, we are back talking cultivating friendships. So we've just 413 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 2: been mentioning that sometimes it's better to try going big 414 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 2: to travel with friends, or to go travel to see friends. 415 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 2: If you have far flung friends, you know, getting on 416 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 2: a plane takes effort, but there are some cheap airflares 417 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 2: these days, and if you are staying with your friend, 418 00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 2: then it's probably not going to be that expensive a trip. 419 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 2: It would probably be great to have that, and then 420 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 2: the time together can be supplemented by texting through the 421 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:07,120 Speaker 2: rest of the year. That's how you keep in touch 422 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 2: with your farflun friends. 423 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 3: Oh, yes, we definitely text, but I will even say 424 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 3: that sometimes you'll have an occasion to reconnect someone that 425 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 3: you don't text with regularly. And I've always been so 426 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 3: impressed at how you can just sort of pick up 427 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 3: with somebody, especially if you shared a lot of time 428 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 3: in the past. Like I've met up with high school 429 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 3: friends that I hadn't texted with or seen for years, 430 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 3: and yet the conversations are so so natural. So I say, 431 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 3: just like, if you're wanting to do something like this, like, 432 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 3: just go for it. You'll probably have way more fun 433 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 3: and get more out of it than you think. 434 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, And then our last realization is that if you 435 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 2: are feeling like you don't have a lot of close 436 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 2: friends in your life, it's good to realize that you 437 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 2: don't have to add a ton of new friends at 438 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 2: a rapid clip to massively boost this. So if you're 439 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 2: feeling like things are thin, like you're in a new 440 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 2: community or some good friends of yours moved away, you 441 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 2: can keep their perspective that turning two acquaintances per year 442 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 2: into good friends means that in three years you would 443 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 2: have half a dozen really good friends, and that is 444 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 2: probably about as many as a lot of people can 445 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 2: maintain at sort of a high level of regularly seeing 446 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 2: each other, and acquaintance has become friends through repeated relaxed 447 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 2: time together, so you know, you look around at the 448 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 2: people in your life who seems friendly, See if you 449 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 2: can start a conversation with them, start texting with them, 450 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:28,199 Speaker 2: see if there's something they want to do together, and 451 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 2: see how it goes from there. 452 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 3: Sounds a lot like dating Laura. 453 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,159 Speaker 2: There is an element of that, there is there is 454 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 2: for sure. Well, so we are excited to be spending 455 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 2: some relaxed time together tonight with our friend Kathleen Paley, 456 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 2: who is coming over here to make a cameo. 457 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: Well, Kathleen, welcome to best of both worlds. 458 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 4: You two. I am so excited to be here. Thank 459 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 4: you for the chance. It's in person, live sitting here. 460 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 4: You're the miniatures. 461 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: Yes, she is on my couch. 462 00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:59,679 Speaker 2: All three of us, in fact, are on my couch 463 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 2: leaning over the one microphone. 464 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: We'll see how this works. 465 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,719 Speaker 2: Our sound games may not be that happy with us. 466 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 3: At the end of all this, I felt like when 467 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 3: I don't remember how this exactly came about, but when 468 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 3: I heard that you were coming and that we could 469 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 3: all hang out, I was like, oh my gosh, friend party, 470 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 3: Like this is going to be amazing, And it is 471 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 3: just like one of those things where it's like, you know, 472 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 3: it's not like we text all the time or hang 473 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 3: out all the time, but like, what a great seizing 474 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:25,400 Speaker 3: the opportunity for connection. 475 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 4: I mean, if any group is going to seize the 476 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 4: opportunity for connection, I feel like it's going to be 477 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 4: you too. 478 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: It is. 479 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 2: It is absolutely so, Kathleen. I imagine maybe a few folks 480 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 2: listening to this I don't know you, and they should 481 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,199 Speaker 2: you can talk a little bit about your Reframe podcast. 482 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,919 Speaker 4: Yes, so I have a podcast much new we're in 483 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 4: younger than best of both worlds. So it's called the 484 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 4: Reframe and it's sort of about reframing our relationships with time, 485 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 4: money and stuff. And Laura was integral and helping me 486 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 4: launch this thing. So eternal things to Laura. But yeah, 487 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 4: we had arranged to have dinner together tonight, the three 488 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 4: of us, and then Laura and Sarah said, Hey, would 489 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 4: you be willing to talk a little bit about maintaining 490 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 4: and building friendships through busy seasons of life? And I said, yeah, 491 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 4: of course. 492 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 2: Because Kathleen is now retired, a newly early retiree from 493 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 2: her legal career. But you were billing all kinds of 494 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 2: crazy hours back in the day. 495 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, I spent nearly twenty years really in the grind 496 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 4: of things as a litigator in a big law firm, 497 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 4: including lots of trials. So yes, many many hours, and 498 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 4: that can make it challenging to maintain friendships while also 499 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 4: being a good mom and wife and everything. So it's funny. 500 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 4: I put together six points just like we did, and 501 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,920 Speaker 4: with no planning in advance and no coordination in advance, 502 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 4: and about half of them have some element of overlap 503 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 4: with what I've said. Yeah, yeah, I mean great minds 504 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 4: are and my mind will coordinate hopefully with the great 505 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 4: minds of the two of you, so I can run 506 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 4: through them. 507 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:09,479 Speaker 1: Sure, sure, Okay. 508 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,879 Speaker 4: So first, I think it's really important to make it 509 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 4: a goal. And that might sound like, oh, it's treating 510 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 4: people as tasks, or it's cold, or it's calculating, but 511 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 4: I don't think it is. I think when you make 512 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 4: something a goal, particularly among the folks who listen to 513 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 4: this podcast, or what it's saying is it's a priority. 514 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 4: It actually it's not calculating and cold. It means that 515 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 4: this is rising to the level where it's something that 516 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 4: we think is really important. The second is kind of 517 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 4: a little bit of an overlap with what you said, 518 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 4: make it novel. You said we should have things to 519 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 4: do together, have someone who you run together, or someone 520 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 4: you know run with, et cetera. And I think we've 521 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 4: all done a billion happy hours, We've all done a 522 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 4: billion dinner parties, and those can be great. But sometimes 523 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 4: with busy people, if you can have the hook of novelty, 524 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 4: then it can make it something that you and your 525 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 4: friends are really looking forward to. Like this year, I 526 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 4: put together a list of about a dozen novel things 527 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 4: I want to do with friends. So next Saturday, I'm 528 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 4: going to a Korean spa with a girlfriend. I only 529 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 4: recently learned that they're naked, so I'm gonna hide myself up. 530 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: You guys are going to take your relationship to a 531 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,719 Speaker 1: new level intimacy. 532 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 4: I love it. She was like, I'll bring the stretch marks, 533 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 4: and I was like, so and so we're going a 534 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 4: few friends. We're going to an eighties nineties dance club 535 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 4: together nice and doing a high ropes course in Barbados 536 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 4: in a few weeks. With wow, girlfriends like make it novel, 537 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 4: and then everyone is excited. You would also said, be 538 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 4: willing to be the initiator. And it's funny that is 539 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 4: my third point, we're all busy, and some people just 540 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 4: are not naturally prone to be the initiator, or they're 541 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:56,640 Speaker 4: so underwater that you, as the planner, can make that important. 542 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 4: There's also I'll just add in a little additional hope 543 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 4: to be the initiator. When you're the initiator, you actually 544 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 4: get to drive the bus more. So you make sure 545 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 4: it's something that you want to do. Also, if it's 546 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 4: something just like hosting, it can actually be so much 547 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 4: easier if you have a template for hosting. You're like, 548 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 4: I get cheese and crackers and nuts and this novelty 549 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,360 Speaker 4: and a bunch of wine and just show up. If 550 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 4: you have a template for hosting, being the host is 551 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,080 Speaker 4: actually so much easier than having to get yourself out 552 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 4: to go somewhere. So being the initiator has like little 553 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 4: side benefits. Also, you know, this is a podcast where 554 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,679 Speaker 4: folks are very thoughtful about time. I think be flexible 555 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,879 Speaker 4: on time. Treat it as the jigsaw puzzle. The walk 556 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 4: and talks are part of that. I think. You know, 557 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 4: if you're used to having a sad desk salad for lunch, 558 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 4: say like no, I will be willing to get out 559 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 4: and pop out for lunch with a friend or walk 560 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 4: with a friend. Also, I know Sarah would not go 561 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 4: for this because it's late at night. But I have 562 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 4: often had friends over at like starting at nine o'clock 563 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,680 Speaker 4: because the kids are a embed at that point. And 564 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 4: then everyone says they're going to leave by eleven. Oh friends, 565 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 4: No they don't. One. Two. I mean something like that, Sarah. 566 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 1: But Sarah'd be asleep on the couch. So I mean, 567 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: when you. 568 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 4: End up with more empty bottles of wine than people 569 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 4: who were there, you know everyone had a good time. 570 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 4: So be willing to sort of treat the time as 571 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 4: a jigsaw puzzle to figure out. It doesn't have to 572 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 4: be the standard things that you think. Two more points. 573 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,439 Speaker 4: I'll be very quick here. For those who travel for work, 574 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 4: keep a mental list of where are your friends around 575 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 4: the country. 576 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 3: Yes, well, I mean I just feel like the opportunistic 577 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 3: friend visit when you happen to be in a city. 578 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 3: It's like always worth it. 579 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:39,440 Speaker 1: I always do it. 580 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 4: Absolutely. Yeah. I am based in DC, but would have 581 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 4: a lot of travel to San Francisco in LA. So 582 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,360 Speaker 4: I would just reach out to friends who are anywhere 583 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 4: in the Bay Area or anywhere in like LA or 584 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 4: Orange County, They're like, hey, you want to have dinner tonight? 585 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 4: Otherwise it was going to be grub Hub in my 586 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 4: hotel room. And so keeping those friendships alive from twenty 587 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 4: twenty five years ago is great. Really. Relatedly, internet friends 588 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 4: can actually become real friends. I'm sitting right. 589 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 1: Here absolutely absolutely and not. 590 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 4: Being afraid of that. You know, we all grew up 591 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 4: being told don't talk to strangers on the Internet, and 592 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 4: obviously there's wisdom to that to a degree, but in vetted, 593 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 4: trusted spaces, internet friends can become real friends. And being 594 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 4: willing to make that leap, I think can be so enriching. 595 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 4: You can also before you even meet in person, can 596 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 4: make that leap by starting to do something like Marco Polo. 597 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 4: I don't know if you know Marco Polo, but it's 598 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 4: like asynchronous voice notes and I have a friend we 599 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 4: are meeting this next summer in person for a conference 600 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 4: or camp, and we have never met in person before. 601 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 4: We've been on each other's podcast and we trade our 602 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 4: long Marco Polo's where I go on a walk and 603 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 4: I just talk to her and then she sends me 604 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,360 Speaker 4: something back. So being willing to like embrace that kind 605 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 4: of technology to help internet friends become real friends. And 606 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 4: then the sixth is related to what you were talking 607 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 4: about about having kind of a standing get together and 608 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 4: again being the planner who does that. What I've done 609 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 4: with some college girlfriends is we try to have a 610 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 4: rotating annual get together, but we make it in one 611 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 4: persons city, so one person each year doesn't have to 612 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 4: travel and it makes it easier. Now, it was supposed 613 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 4: to be in DC back in November, and one friend 614 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 4: got too busy with work, so we're like, oops, I 615 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 4: guess we better go to Barbados instead. 616 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: I'm like, such a shame DC in November. 617 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 4: I'll do Barbados in spring. 618 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 1: Yeah that sounds good. But yeah, just. 619 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,199 Speaker 4: Having something that you say, this is a tradition, so 620 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 4: we make it work, and then being again being the initiator, Yeah, 621 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 4: who does the planning. Absolutely, that's what I have found 622 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 4: hopeful over the last twenty ish years, to keep friendships 623 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 4: alive and to make new ones as the new stages 624 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 4: roll along. 625 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:56,440 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 626 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 2: Well, that's great advice, all wonderful trip tips that people 627 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 2: should try and make sure to listen to more of that. 628 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: On the reframe, I just have. 629 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 3: To say Kathleen's podcast is so fun and so interesting, 630 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 3: especially I mean, I'm not like looking to retire early, 631 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 3: but listening to somebody else's journey through that is fascinating 632 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 3: and bonus if you're into any sort of travel hacking whatsoever. 633 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 3: Kathleen is a goddess and has taught me everything else. 634 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 2: Yes, Sarah Mayel, Sarah Bows, you booked tickets to Hawaii 635 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,159 Speaker 2: using points right, so there you go. 636 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: Text Kathleen, I got a deal book? Are you proud 637 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: of me? 638 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 4: I love getting text from you being like, look at this, 639 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 4: I've got a free hotel. 640 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. 641 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 2: So many things you can learn from the reframe, how 642 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 2: to retire early, to go on fabulous trips, have wonderful friendships, 643 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 2: and the like. So, as Kathleen knows, we end each 644 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 2: episode with a love of the week, so I can 645 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 2: go first, since it looks like the other two of 646 00:28:58,080 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 2: you are still trying to think of yours. 647 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: Got I hears Okay, I love Tapus, which we are 648 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: about to go get. 649 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 2: I'm going to drive these two ladies over to a 650 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 2: Tapas restaurant, so that will be great. 651 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:09,960 Speaker 4: Well. 652 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 3: I love internet friends because I mean I have a 653 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,479 Speaker 3: lot of in real I'm not only friends with Internet people, 654 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 3: but some of my closest friends now are people I've 655 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 3: met through my blog, my podcasts, et cetera. And that 656 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 3: is amazing. Internet friends are great. 657 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 4: Well, at the risk of sounding like a lush, I 658 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 4: love cocktails and Laura made us cosmos before dinner, so 659 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 4: I'm going to say thank you, Laura. 660 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: You're welcome. You're welcome. 661 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 2: I was just trying it out. See how it went delicious, 662 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 2: I hope so well. This has been best of both worlds. 663 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 2: We've been talking strategies for cultivating friendships, especially during the 664 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 2: busy years. We will be back next week with more 665 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 2: on making work and life fit together. 666 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,280 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the 667 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 3: shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, 668 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 3: and you. 669 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This 670 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 2: has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join 671 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 2: us next time for more on making work and life 672 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 2: work together.