WEBVTT - Part One: Hunger Strikes: From Ireland to Palestine 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:04.640 Hello, and welcome to ADHD History Hour with Margaret. I'm 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:07.000 your host, Margaret, and each week I try to make 0:00:07.000 --> 0:00:09.240 a coherent story out of all the rabbit holes that 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.560 I fell down that week. Usually there are rabbit holes 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:15.200 about cool people did cool stuff. What do you think, Sophie, 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:16.720 should be change the name of the podcast the cool 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:20.680 People Did Cool Stuff? Or should we keep ADHD History Hour. 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:24.439 I don't know. I know it depends on how you 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:25.079 feel that week. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:31.280 Okay, fair well, this week we have Sharen as our guest. 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:37.560 Yeah, Hi, Saren, Hi, Margaret, thanks for having me back anytime. 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:42.800 Serene is host of the podcast. It could happen here. Yes, 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:46.560 also has a resume that makes me want to guess 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:52.320 whether or not you have particular shared mental issues? Is me? 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:52.680 Yeah? 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:55.280 I have. I'm not well to say the least. I 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:57.720 just got clear, uh. 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:02.240 Specifically a resume full of a thousand interests assurance book. 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:04.080 Busy always baby. 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:07.200 Yeah. Also, I just like do not know who I am, 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:11.280 so I just continue to flail about. Right, I do 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:13.600 know who I am, but I think I'm just I mean, 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:16.760 this is ADHD History Hour. I mean, just let me 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.480 write in that happens. That's that's me all right, yeah, okay. 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:26.399 Our producer is Sophie. Hi, Sophie up, Sophie. Our audio 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:31.280 engineers Ian. Everyone wants to say Hi, Ian, And our 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:34.720 music was produced for us by On Woman on Women. 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:39.200 This week, we're going to talk about hunger strikes, the 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:41.240 tool used by folks who have no other tools left. 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:44.240 And in particular, we're gonna talk about hunger strikes in 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:47.039 two countries that have faced very similar problems and have 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:54.240 developed very similar solutions, Ireland and Palestine. Along the way, 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:59.000 we're going to do too much context because I really 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:02.400 like context. Okay, here's my theory, okay, And how when 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:05.520 you're like eating soup, the best part is the crackers 0:02:05.520 --> 0:02:06.320 that you put in the soup. 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:09.760 This is a universal experience, right, Oh huh yeah, the 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:14.560 crunch yeah yeah, yeah. The crackers are the context. Right. 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:20.279 Oh. The soup is the main idea, and the crackers 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:22.400 are what you need to digest it. 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:27.160 Well yeah, and to leave full, yes. 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:29.919 Leave satisfied and sated. 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:33.920 And and it's empty carbs. 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:35.400 So you're here your family. 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:42.040 Yeah, you've ever been around hunger strikers? I only have once. 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:44.800 I haven't. I can't say I have. 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:50.440 I was once in Athens, Greece. This is probably twenty eleven. 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:55.760 I'm very bad at tracking my own travels. I think 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:57.799 it's twenty eleven, and so I tried to like look 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:01.880 up was like hunger strike, immigrant hunger strike in Greece, 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:04.679 and it was like there's a major one every year basically. 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:07.799 But I think I was there for the twenty eleven one. 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:13.079 And I've talked a bit about the Greek neighborhood of 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.639 Exarchia on the show before in Athens, I think in 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:18.440 the episode about riot dogs. But in short, it's the 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:22.120 sort of anarchist neighborhood of Athens that has greater to 0:03:22.200 --> 0:03:25.360 lesser degrees. It's autonomous from the Greek state and the police. 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:29.560 It's a really cool place. There's lots of graffiti, and 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.080 there's lots of people self organizing to feed people and 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:34.600 take care of each other. There's like a self organized park. 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:39.200 And the thing that impressed me the most was that 0:03:39.280 --> 0:03:41.320 I saw the degree to which Greek anarchists and the 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:46.680 refugee population were working together to help the refugee population. 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:51.200 I went to one of the many squatted social centers 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:54.320 in Greece that has been transformed into a housing and 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:57.760 education and a place for self organization for refugees mostly 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:02.920 from Swanna countries. And not only was it free housing, 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:05.360 but it was also protection from the Greek police, because 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:10.200 this is like one of the major reasons why the refugees. Well, 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:12.240 a lot of people were trying to arrest them, but 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:13.960 there were a lot of people who didn't want the 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:17.200 police to be able to arrest them, and fortunately they 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:19.880 had all these like self organized places that the police 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:25.159 cannot safely go right m h. Police can't go to 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:29.120 a squat in Exarchia without an awful lot of police. 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.039 What's a sorry, this is go ahead, non intelligent, but 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:36.760 like what's the the vibe for lack of a better word, 0:04:36.800 --> 0:04:39.600 of the Greek police, Like what do they carry guns? 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:42.760 Are they terrible? I mean, all cults are terrible, but 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:44.520 you know what I mean, Like, what level of bad 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:45.040 are they? 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:49.040 So that's actually funny. I don't remember whether or not 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:52.480 they carry guns, but the Greek police, at least most 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:54.080 of my information is about ten years old. When I 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.000 was there. The regular Greek police are like not great, 0:04:57.200 --> 0:04:59.880 but then there's a group of police called the Delta. 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.880 I would like the they're actually I think the moped cops, 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:07.000 but they're like the worst cops and they specifically a 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:09.600 lot of them were or are I don't know about 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:14.000 our but were members of I think It's Golden Dawn. 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:19.160 They like the Nazi group, the Nazi political party in Greece. 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:24.520 So the police in Athens in particular, but in Greece 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:28.360 in general are like absolutely skew, way, way more right 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:29.680 wing than the rest of the population. 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:32.719 I see, Okay, it's good to know. Did not know that. 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:36.680 Yeah, And they would like go in force into Xarchia, 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:38.840 Like if you saw police in Exarchia at that time, 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:42.920 you saw like fifty police in Oxarchia, because otherwise they 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:48.000 can't really be there. The police station there is routinely 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:52.880 molotovt But yeah, So while I was in Exarchia, there 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:55.960 was an immigrant hunger strike happening, and this particular one 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:59.120 was North African immigrants, many of whom had were not 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:01.960 recent refugees, actually had been working for many years in 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:04.880 the country until the economic downturn had forced them out 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.480 of work. And basically the government was like, oh, you're 0:06:07.480 --> 0:06:11.800 no longer are legal immigrants who do cheap agricultural labor, 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:14.880 so we want you gone. And they were like, this 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:16.920 doesn't seem like a fair deal based on the fact 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:19.039 that we're the ones who feed you, and Greece was like, 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:22.040 we don't really care what's fair. We're the government, right. 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:25.039 This is verbatim translation. 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:26.840 Yeah, that sounds like them. 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:32.800 Yeah. So the hunger Strikers went behind the walls of 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:35.040 the into the courtyard of one of these like large 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:40.359 squatted buildings, right, and there're so these huge tents, the 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:45.000 big old style that in my mind you see like 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:47.320 like military style tents, like you know, the giant tents 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:50.680 that thirty people can sleep in, you know. And they're 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.039 the refugees. They're lying in the shade and they're hunger 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:56.480 striking for themselves and most importantly for their fellow refugees 0:06:56.480 --> 0:07:00.000 and immigrants. I was there as an independent journalist, which 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:02.480 is not something that i'd do much anymore what he 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:03.680 used to do, and so I took a bunch of 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:06.880 photos and I had some conversations not with the hunger 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:14.440 strikers but with like their media represented representatives, and later 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:18.200 a bunch of them got transferred to hospitals. Hospitals were 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.120 a contested space, right, so it was like actually kind 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:24.160 of cool. There was this major movement in Greece. It 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:28.200 wasn't just like the anarchists or whatever, right, there were 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:31.400 a lot of people who were openly confrontational with the 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:34.000 right wing policies of the government. So a lot of 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:35.960 people when they would go to the hospital, the police 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:37.160 would show up and be like, oh, we want to 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:40.280 arrest these people, and the doctors would physically drive out 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:44.880 the police from the hospitals, which is something I would 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:50.760 like to see more of. Ye, And I don't know, 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:54.560 it was really moving. I saw dozens of people with 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:57.000 no recourse but to skirt close to death in order 0:07:57.040 --> 0:08:02.680 to fight for dignity and fair treatment. And it worked. 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:06.880 After six weeks of three hundred people hunger striking, mostly 0:08:06.920 --> 0:08:11.560 from North Africa, it shamed the government into action and 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:15.840 they won temporary permits. I one thing that's like really 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.040 annoying about this kind of action is that the media 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:19.960 usually kind of like drops off and you never like, 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:22.720 I don't know what happened to them later, you know, 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:23.720 right right. 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:30.280 I Mean it's also like shame is such a like 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:33.360 the fact that that is what makes the government do 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:39.680 anything is so infuriating, Like yeah, it's it's just uh yeah. 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:42.880 And and the person that's hunger striking is literally like 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:47.840 on death's door potentially, and the government is just like 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:50.480 this is going to be a bad look and they 0:08:50.520 --> 0:08:53.400 do something like it's so just the whole the whole 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:55.520 dynamic is bonkers. 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:58.320 I don't know. Yeah, No, and that's that's what this 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:06.240 episode is about, is that dynamic. And yeah, so we're 0:09:06.280 --> 0:09:07.880 going to talk about that, and we're going to talk 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:11.000 about two colonized countries that have a long history of 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:15.599 cooperation and solidarity, Ireland and Palestine. And one of the 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:17.720 reasons I want to tie these two together. One, they're 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:20.720 both actually just very natural places to talk about hunger strikes. 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:24.720 But two, I think that a lot of American society, 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:27.480 especially white American society, seems to think that the Irish 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:31.360 anti settler movement is legitimate, but the Palestinian one isn't. 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:35.000 And yeah, I don't agree with that. So I'm going 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:37.320 to make a lot of comparisons between the two today. 0:09:38.120 --> 0:09:42.160 No, I think it's necessary. Also, Like I don't know, 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:44.920 I don't think really people realize the connection or the 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:47.560 similarities usually because they think it's like, oh, that's like 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:50.600 a brown person problem and this is like this is different. 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:54.720 You know totally h but I'm glad you're bringing it 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:58.520 up because they're so related, if not extremely similar, you 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:01.000 know what I mean, Like it's I don't know, and 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:02.719 I feel like people that go through something like that 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:04.760 are always going to be in solidarity with each other 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:08.600 because they understand at a level that most people don't. 0:10:08.800 --> 0:10:12.200 So I'm glad you're doing this episode. Cool. 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:15.520 No, I'm glad. Yeah, Like I didn't, it's not in 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:17.440 the script, but I ended up like reading a bunch 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:22.079 of like Palestinian immigrants in Ireland and Ireland being like, oh, 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:23.959 this is like the one place in Europe where I 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:27.280 can walk down the street and see Palestinian flags and like, yeah, 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:31.600 you know, feel comfortable. Obviously, Ireland, like everywhere, is dealing 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:33.920 with some right wing bullshit right now, and there's like 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:39.520 a lot going on with people fighting against right wing 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:42.160 Irish nationalism and all of that, but that's sort of 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:43.079 beside the point. 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.440 Yeah, it is, it is. Sorry, No, I'm just thinking, 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.480 like how fucked up it is that the only time 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:54.040 a Palestinian or like some like can feel comfortable is 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:57.720 if a country has also experienced like something terrible like 0:10:57.720 --> 0:10:59.400 they did. You know what, I mean like that's the 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.960 only reason and they can feel like they can be 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:05.920 Palestinian is because oh, this country also went through some 0:11:05.960 --> 0:11:08.280 fucked up shit like all the other countries probably are 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:11.120 just like it's like that. That's it's like the annoying 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:14.600 uh you only care about something when it affects you thing, 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:18.640 but like country version. Yeah, it's just so silly to 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:20.160 actually see that happened. Anyway. 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:26.200 Continue, Yeah, so to talk about the hunger strike, we're 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:32.280 going to talk about ancient Irish legal customs. Great, mmm, 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:36.040 crackers in the soup, the hunger This is a weird 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:38.360 comparison to makes this this whole thing is about not whatever. 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:41.480 Anyway, So it's too late. You're on the trade. You 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:43.240 have to continue going on this trade. 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:47.280 The hunger strike is probably as old as society, and 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:49.559 I can point to it. One of the places I 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:53.080 can point to that easily is in Ireland. There's a 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:56.040 but I hunt law, which is the pre colonial legal 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.280 system of Ireland. And I promise I didn't go out 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:00.760 of my way to find out to work it into 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.200 this episode, even though it's come up a bunch of 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:08.120 times recently on this shows. There's a bunch of written 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:12.080 records of Brahaon law. But it's also impossible to translate 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:17.200 with certainty because it's it was not a particularly write 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:19.920 things down culture. And okay, there's lots of reasons, right, 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:23.160 but overall the idea seems to have been passed down 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:27.840 successfully throughout history and I think it's neat and hunger 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:32.120 strikes are literally written into ancient Irish legal code, so 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:34.840 to talk about the law system in general, of like 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:36.760 this is the sort of pre Christian and up to 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.480 early Christian actually up to different parts of Ireland was 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:43.480 up to like the middle of the like fifteen hundreds 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:46.079 and some places up to about nineteen hundred, you had 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:51.679 elements of this law. Individuals didn't have absolute ownership of land. Instead, 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.480 lands were owned by the larger clan and then divvied up, 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:58.080 and sometimes they were divvied up equally, sometimes hierarchically. But 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:00.320 everyone had access to a whole bunch of common land, 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:05.400 including pastures but also some pastures, but also all the forests, 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:10.079 mountain mountains, bogs and wastelands. And then a lot of 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.360 the decision making would happen at these huge assemblies that 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:17.400 would meet in graveyards because their entire legal system grew 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:20.400 out of funeral practices because the Irish have got in 0:13:20.440 --> 0:13:20.960 their blood. 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:26.600 Wow yeah, wow, that is just sick. 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:33.000 Yeah totally. And then also really interestingly, most crime and 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:36.960 punishment was not up to the state, like the clan 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:40.160 leaders are king or whatever the fuck right. Only political 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:42.880 crimes were handled by the state. If you're trying to 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.280 like go over the government, the states like as kind 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:48.480 of about us, we should probably do something right. All 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:51.160 other crime, like stealing shit and murdering people and all 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:53.640 that kind of stuff was handled by a sort of 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.760 non state court. A jury of peers would investigate the 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:00.079 crime and then bring their findings to a judge. And 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.720 the judge was a Breyhon and who would decide the 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:05.719 right or right and wrong of it and then meet 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.680 out a punishment. And the Brehons would like the judges 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:13.400 would like go different places. Sometimes it's different. It changed 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:15.720 over time, right, like sometimes they were more formal, sometimes 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:18.240 they were less formal. For a while, anyone could be 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.680 a judge as long as they were like a learned guy. 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:22.600 I don't know if it was mentally or not. Actually, 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.120 there's like weird. Gender in ancient Ireland was way more 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:29.160 equal than most of the rest of history. It was, 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:31.480 but it was also not perfect, you know. 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:36.360 Right, better better than most, yeah, but not perfect. 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:40.720 Yeah, and then so later. So originally any and at 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:43.280 least any dude who was like considered learned could become one. 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:45.720 And then eventually it was you had to study for 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:47.640 twenty years in order to be one. 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:51.880 Twenty years. Yeah, what do you study for twenty years? 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:54.440 I guess you just I don't know. It's probably a 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:59.080 combination of ethics and like precedent and social norms and 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:03.960 all kinds of shit. It seemed to work fairly well, okay, 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:11.000 they most punishments weren't vengeance based. There was capital punishment existed, 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:13.680 but it was like really rare. In some places in 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.160 the old myths and stuff, they'll be like, oh, anyone 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:18.040 who kills someone must die or whatever, but that was like, 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:24.080 actually rarely what happened in practice. Other high level punishments 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:28.200 were banishment and gouging out the eyes, but these were 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:31.480 not so different. Yeah, I know, right, These were not common. 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:37.040 Usually it was basically debt. Now you owe this family, 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:39.160 like some of your land, some of your chickens. I 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:41.760 don't know if their chickens are not some of you know, 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:46.320 some of your money whatever. There's no cops. There's no prisons, 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:51.120 or rather, there's no public prisons for some really bad crimes. 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.440 If you're in debt and can't pay it, you become 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:57.520 a slave to the other family until your debt is paid. 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:00.520 Oh and then you go free. So it would be 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:02.520 like instead of prison, it's like, well, now you're in 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.920 prison of you killed this family's kid, so now you've 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:09.120 got to like serve them for five years. 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:14.240 I don't honestly, that doesn't not make sense to me personally. 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:17.040 But it doesn't make sense, or it doesn't not it 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:19.840 doesn't not make sense. Yeah, no, it it's like if 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:24.120 you're if you're gonna just just to if we pretend 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.400 that someone did a terrible thing to family, the least 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:30.040 they could do is serve the family for redemption, you 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:30.600 know what I mean. 0:16:30.720 --> 0:16:33.120 So, I mean it's better than fucking throwing someone in 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:35.760 prison for twenty years. Yeah, like learn how to do 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:38.480 crime and have a horrible life and are tortured. 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:40.920 Yeah, totally, totally. 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:46.720 Yeah. And usually though it was like all right, you 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:48.320 lost your lands or you got to give up some 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:52.440 cows or whatever. To these folks, it was fairly the 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:55.000 reason that there wasn't capital punishment much in it. I 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.680 think this is a little bit my inference. It was 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:00.920 a successful method of stopping like revenge killings and mob 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:05.800 rule right, all without the interference of an actual state 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:09.800 or a specialized roles besides the judges. And if the judge, 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:12.240 the one who study for twenty years, if he gives 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:16.879 a he gives a ruling that later people overturn, the 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:20.880 judge often loses their job for good because they're like, oh, 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:24.840 you actually did. It's like you had to study for 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:26.840 twenty years because you have to get this right. You 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:28.840 can't fuck this up, right, you know. 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:32.240 I mean I think I was thinking about it as 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:35.280 after we said twenty years thing, and it feels like 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:37.760 they're just waiting for the person to get older, like 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:40.640 to be like older and wiser, you know, like, oh, 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:43.040 you have to wait at least twenty years because your 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:46.760 brain needs to evolve a bit and then you can 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:52.400 make decisions. But it is interesting, yeah yeah, yeah, no. 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.840 I I mean like I have like notes. This isn't 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:58.680 like a no note situation, but like it sounds better 0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:04.440 than what we live with currently by oh yeah, magnitude, Yes, yes, 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:08.040 and yeah, and so what does it have to do 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:13.720 with hunger strikes? I'm glad you asked my own script. Well, Ireland, 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:16.440 what does it have to do with hunger strikes? I'm 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:21.720 glad you asked. Ireland and India had really specific and 0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:25.320 interesting overlaps in this ancient law, and one of them 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:28.840 was the right to redress by fasting by hunger strike. 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.359 So if you've if you've been wronged by someone who's 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:35.920 socially above you, like a clan leader, king or whatever 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:39.359 the fuck, it sure is hard to enforce because like 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:44.480 you know, there's no cops, right and like you're not 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:45.840 gonna be able to come up with as strong of 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:49.920 like a posse as the other guy is. So there's 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:55.160 tristcod fasting, and it is the legal process of show 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:59.400 up at your better's doorstep, wait outside, refusing to eat 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:03.680 until he socially shamed into complying with the judgment against him. 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:07.920 So shame is the driving force. Yes, you're across the board. 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:11.879 Yes, and and it'll come up a couple times in 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:16.000 this but the it's not make someone change their mind, 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:20.679 it's not change their heart. It is shame. It is 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:23.480 embarrassed them in front of their community. 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:26.000 It's not I don't want to see this person die, 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:28.120 it's I don't want people to think I'm terrible. 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:33.040 Yeah, exactly, Okay, And then I fell down this rabbit hole. 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:36.119 I was like, why the fuck is it? India and 0:19:36.200 --> 0:19:38.520 Ireland are the two places with this written into their 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:44.560 ancient legal codes. Mm hmmm, well, and I get really annoyed. Okay, So, 0:19:44.680 --> 0:19:47.440 like a lot of people who want to talk about 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:51.959 like similarities between far flung cultures are conspiracy minded and 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:54.439 like talking about aliens and like just like not on 0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:56.640 a page that I'm really interested in or like really 0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:59.080 interested in some like racial myths that I have just 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:04.400 like no fucking time. But the best explanation that I've 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:08.160 been able to find. You've got Indo European languages, right, 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:13.240 This is the larger family tree of languages that forty 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:15.640 six percent of the world speaks as a first language. 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:19.919 Everything from English and Irish to Italian to Bengali to 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:26.480 Farsi are all Indo European languages. They almost certainly originate 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:31.080 from a language that gets called proto Indo European. People 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:34.480 like to argue about where that came from, but currently 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:37.760 the sort of scientific consensus is that it came from 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:41.560 the Pontic Caspian Step, which is a region that covers 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:45.040 like Ukraine to Kazakistan, kind of like near the Black 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:49.880 Sea and shit, where the Yamnaya people lived around three 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:54.320 thousand BC. And then it's spread out from there, and 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:57.480 it spread out so well because the Yamnaya people might 0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:01.399 have been the first horseback riders in the world. WHOA, Yeah, 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:03.880 I decided not to go down a huge rabbit hole 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:08.160 about horses. But one day, one day, yeah, I would 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:13.520 love that. I was like, my like horse girl friend 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:18.840 was like explaining, got really excited about every time I 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:21.119 do any research, she's able to tie it into horses 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:22.600 in one way or another, and this one was like 0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:23.280 really easy. 0:21:24.480 --> 0:21:28.480 I mean, I love horses. I will always remember this 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:31.040 one comment. This random person I don't even remember who 0:21:31.119 --> 0:21:33.719 made this comment, but it was someone in a circle 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:38.840 of friends or something, and they were saying that like something. 0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:41.560 I was just saying something about how oh, I was 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:44.879 really upset because in medieval times it really feels like 0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:47.439 they abuse the horses or like they drug them up 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:50.919 or whatever. They seem so miserable. Yeah, And then the 0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:53.920 person was like, well, horses are meant to be ridden 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:56.080 on by humans, like that's where they're that's why they're there, 0:21:56.280 --> 0:21:59.640 or whatever, like something indicating that, like the horses on this. 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:01.040 Planet, yeah, yeah, to. 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:04.200 Have a human on top of it. And I got 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:09.399 so pissed. And my main personality trait is that I'm angry. 0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:12.000 I hide it very well, but I'm usually very angry 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:14.879 all the time. And I got so mad, and I 0:22:14.920 --> 0:22:17.560 was like, what do you fucking mean, like a it's 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:19.879 an animal. Yeah, it would have been here if you 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:22.920 were here. So I don't know. Horses I think are 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:26.720 beautiful creatures and I would love a horse rabbit hole 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:30.840 one day. Yeah, sorry for that tangent. I just always 0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:32.119 think of that. I guess so mad. 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:34.960 No, No, I'm like making a mental note than when 0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:36.399 I do a horse episode, I should have you as 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:43.760 the guest. So if there, if there's this Indo European culture, 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:48.159 then some of its furthest fringes, the furthest it gets. 0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:52.000 Some of it is Ireland in India, right, northern India, 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:57.720 mm hmm. And this is the more conjectural part of this. 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:03.280 At the fringes, older tradition's hand hang on longer because 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:07.960