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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to ADHD History Hour with Margaret. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host, Margaret, and each week I try to make

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Speaker 1: a coherent story out of all the rabbit holes that

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Speaker 1: I fell down that week. Usually there are rabbit holes

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Speaker 1: about cool people did cool stuff. What do you think, Sophie,

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Speaker 1: should be change the name of the podcast the cool

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Speaker 1: People Did Cool Stuff? Or should we keep ADHD History Hour.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I know it depends on how you

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Speaker 2: feel that week.

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Speaker 1: Okay, fair well, this week we have Sharen as our guest.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Hi, Saren, Hi, Margaret, thanks for having me back anytime.

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Speaker 1: Serene is host of the podcast. It could happen here. Yes,

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Speaker 1: also has a resume that makes me want to guess

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Speaker 1: whether or not you have particular shared mental issues? Is me?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I have. I'm not well to say the least. I

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Speaker 3: just got clear, uh.

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Speaker 1: Specifically a resume full of a thousand interests assurance book.

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Speaker 2: Busy always baby.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Also, I just like do not know who I am,

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Speaker 3: so I just continue to flail about. Right, I do

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Speaker 3: know who I am, but I think I'm just I mean,

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Speaker 3: this is ADHD History Hour. I mean, just let me

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Speaker 3: write in that happens. That's that's me all right, yeah, okay.

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Speaker 3: Our producer is Sophie. Hi, Sophie up, Sophie. Our audio

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Speaker 3: engineers Ian. Everyone wants to say Hi, Ian, And our

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Speaker 3: music was produced for us by On Woman on Women.

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Speaker 3: This week, we're going to talk about hunger strikes, the

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Speaker 3: tool used by folks who have no other tools left.

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Speaker 3: And in particular, we're gonna talk about hunger strikes in

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Speaker 3: two countries that have faced very similar problems and have

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Speaker 3: developed very similar solutions, Ireland and Palestine. Along the way,

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Speaker 3: we're going to do too much context because I really

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Speaker 3: like context. Okay, here's my theory, okay, And how when

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Speaker 3: you're like eating soup, the best part is the crackers

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Speaker 3: that you put in the soup.

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Speaker 1: This is a universal experience, right, Oh huh yeah, the

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Speaker 1: crunch yeah yeah, yeah. The crackers are the context. Right.

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Speaker 3: Oh. The soup is the main idea, and the crackers

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Speaker 3: are what you need to digest it.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, and to leave full, yes.

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Speaker 3: Leave satisfied and sated.

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Speaker 1: And and it's empty carbs.

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Speaker 3: So you're here your family.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you've ever been around hunger strikers? I only have once.

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Speaker 3: I haven't. I can't say I have.

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Speaker 1: I was once in Athens, Greece. This is probably twenty eleven.

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Speaker 1: I'm very bad at tracking my own travels. I think

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Speaker 1: it's twenty eleven, and so I tried to like look

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Speaker 1: up was like hunger strike, immigrant hunger strike in Greece,

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Speaker 1: and it was like there's a major one every year basically.

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Speaker 1: But I think I was there for the twenty eleven one.

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Speaker 1: And I've talked a bit about the Greek neighborhood of

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Speaker 1: Exarchia on the show before in Athens, I think in

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Speaker 1: the episode about riot dogs. But in short, it's the

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Speaker 1: sort of anarchist neighborhood of Athens that has greater to

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Speaker 1: lesser degrees. It's autonomous from the Greek state and the police.

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Speaker 1: It's a really cool place. There's lots of graffiti, and

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Speaker 1: there's lots of people self organizing to feed people and

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Speaker 1: take care of each other. There's like a self organized park.

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Speaker 1: And the thing that impressed me the most was that

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Speaker 1: I saw the degree to which Greek anarchists and the

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Speaker 1: refugee population were working together to help the refugee population.

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Speaker 1: I went to one of the many squatted social centers

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Speaker 1: in Greece that has been transformed into a housing and

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Speaker 1: education and a place for self organization for refugees mostly

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Speaker 1: from Swanna countries. And not only was it free housing,

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Speaker 1: but it was also protection from the Greek police, because

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Speaker 1: this is like one of the major reasons why the refugees. Well,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people were trying to arrest them, but

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Speaker 1: there were a lot of people who didn't want the

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Speaker 1: police to be able to arrest them, and fortunately they

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Speaker 1: had all these like self organized places that the police

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Speaker 1: cannot safely go right m h. Police can't go to

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Speaker 1: a squat in Exarchia without an awful lot of police.

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Speaker 3: What's a sorry, this is go ahead, non intelligent, but

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Speaker 3: like what's the the vibe for lack of a better word,

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Speaker 3: of the Greek police, Like what do they carry guns?

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Speaker 3: Are they terrible? I mean, all cults are terrible, but

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean, Like, what level of bad

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Speaker 3: are they?

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Speaker 1: So that's actually funny. I don't remember whether or not

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Speaker 1: they carry guns, but the Greek police, at least most

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Speaker 1: of my information is about ten years old. When I

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Speaker 1: was there. The regular Greek police are like not great,

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Speaker 1: but then there's a group of police called the Delta.

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Speaker 1: I would like the they're actually I think the moped cops,

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Speaker 1: but they're like the worst cops and they specifically a

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Speaker 1: lot of them were or are I don't know about

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Speaker 1: our but were members of I think It's Golden Dawn.

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Speaker 1: They like the Nazi group, the Nazi political party in Greece.

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Speaker 1: So the police in Athens in particular, but in Greece

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Speaker 1: in general are like absolutely skew, way, way more right

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Speaker 1: wing than the rest of the population.

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Speaker 3: I see, Okay, it's good to know. Did not know that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And they would like go in force into Xarchia,

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Speaker 1: Like if you saw police in Exarchia at that time,

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Speaker 1: you saw like fifty police in Oxarchia, because otherwise they

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Speaker 1: can't really be there. The police station there is routinely

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Speaker 1: molotovt But yeah, So while I was in Exarchia, there

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Speaker 1: was an immigrant hunger strike happening, and this particular one

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Speaker 1: was North African immigrants, many of whom had were not

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Speaker 1: recent refugees, actually had been working for many years in

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Speaker 1: the country until the economic downturn had forced them out

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Speaker 1: of work. And basically the government was like, oh, you're

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Speaker 1: no longer are legal immigrants who do cheap agricultural labor,

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Speaker 1: so we want you gone. And they were like, this

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem like a fair deal based on the fact

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Speaker 1: that we're the ones who feed you, and Greece was like,

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Speaker 1: we don't really care what's fair. We're the government, right.

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Speaker 1: This is verbatim translation.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds like them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So the hunger Strikers went behind the walls of

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Speaker 1: the into the courtyard of one of these like large

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Speaker 1: squatted buildings, right, and there're so these huge tents, the

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Speaker 1: big old style that in my mind you see like

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Speaker 1: like military style tents, like you know, the giant tents

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Speaker 1: that thirty people can sleep in, you know. And they're

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Speaker 1: the refugees. They're lying in the shade and they're hunger

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Speaker 1: striking for themselves and most importantly for their fellow refugees

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Speaker 1: and immigrants. I was there as an independent journalist, which

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Speaker 1: is not something that i'd do much anymore what he

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Speaker 1: used to do, and so I took a bunch of

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Speaker 1: photos and I had some conversations not with the hunger

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Speaker 1: strikers but with like their media represented representatives, and later

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Speaker 1: a bunch of them got transferred to hospitals. Hospitals were

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Speaker 1: a contested space, right, so it was like actually kind

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Speaker 1: of cool. There was this major movement in Greece. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't just like the anarchists or whatever, right, there were

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who were openly confrontational with the

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Speaker 1: right wing policies of the government. So a lot of

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Speaker 1: people when they would go to the hospital, the police

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Speaker 1: would show up and be like, oh, we want to

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Speaker 1: arrest these people, and the doctors would physically drive out

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Speaker 1: the police from the hospitals, which is something I would

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Speaker 1: like to see more of. Ye, And I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it was really moving. I saw dozens of people with

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Speaker 1: no recourse but to skirt close to death in order

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Speaker 1: to fight for dignity and fair treatment. And it worked.

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Speaker 1: After six weeks of three hundred people hunger striking, mostly

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Speaker 1: from North Africa, it shamed the government into action and

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Speaker 1: they won temporary permits. I one thing that's like really

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Speaker 1: annoying about this kind of action is that the media

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Speaker 1: usually kind of like drops off and you never like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what happened to them later, you know,

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Speaker 1: right right.

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Speaker 3: I Mean it's also like shame is such a like

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Speaker 3: the fact that that is what makes the government do

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Speaker 3: anything is so infuriating, Like yeah, it's it's just uh yeah.

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Speaker 3: And and the person that's hunger striking is literally like

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Speaker 3: on death's door potentially, and the government is just like

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Speaker 3: this is going to be a bad look and they

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Speaker 3: do something like it's so just the whole the whole

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Speaker 3: dynamic is bonkers.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, No, and that's that's what this

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Speaker 1: episode is about, is that dynamic. And yeah, so we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about that, and we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about two colonized countries that have a long history of

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Speaker 1: cooperation and solidarity, Ireland and Palestine. And one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons I want to tie these two together. One, they're

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Speaker 1: both actually just very natural places to talk about hunger strikes.

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Speaker 1: But two, I think that a lot of American society,

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Speaker 1: especially white American society, seems to think that the Irish

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Speaker 1: anti settler movement is legitimate, but the Palestinian one isn't.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I don't agree with that. So I'm going

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Speaker 1: to make a lot of comparisons between the two today.

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Speaker 3: No, I think it's necessary. Also, Like I don't know,

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Speaker 3: I don't think really people realize the connection or the

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Speaker 3: similarities usually because they think it's like, oh, that's like

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Speaker 3: a brown person problem and this is like this is different.

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Speaker 3: You know totally h but I'm glad you're bringing it

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Speaker 3: up because they're so related, if not extremely similar, you

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Speaker 3: know what I mean, Like it's I don't know, and

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Speaker 3: I feel like people that go through something like that

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Speaker 3: are always going to be in solidarity with each other

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Speaker 3: because they understand at a level that most people don't.

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Speaker 3: So I'm glad you're doing this episode. Cool.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm glad. Yeah, Like I didn't, it's not in

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Speaker 1: the script, but I ended up like reading a bunch

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Speaker 1: of like Palestinian immigrants in Ireland and Ireland being like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is like the one place in Europe where I

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Speaker 1: can walk down the street and see Palestinian flags and like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, feel comfortable. Obviously, Ireland, like everywhere, is dealing

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Speaker 1: with some right wing bullshit right now, and there's like

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Speaker 1: a lot going on with people fighting against right wing

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Speaker 1: Irish nationalism and all of that, but that's sort of

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Speaker 1: beside the point.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it is, it is. Sorry, No, I'm just thinking,

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Speaker 3: like how fucked up it is that the only time

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Speaker 3: a Palestinian or like some like can feel comfortable is

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Speaker 3: if a country has also experienced like something terrible like

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Speaker 3: they did. You know what, I mean like that's the

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Speaker 3: only reason and they can feel like they can be

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Speaker 3: Palestinian is because oh, this country also went through some

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Speaker 3: fucked up shit like all the other countries probably are

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Speaker 3: just like it's like that. That's it's like the annoying

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Speaker 3: uh you only care about something when it affects you thing,

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Speaker 3: but like country version. Yeah, it's just so silly to

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Speaker 3: actually see that happened. Anyway.

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Speaker 1: Continue, Yeah, so to talk about the hunger strike, we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about ancient Irish legal customs. Great, mmm,

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Speaker 1: crackers in the soup, the hunger This is a weird

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Speaker 1: comparison to makes this this whole thing is about not whatever.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, So it's too late. You're on the trade. You

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Speaker 3: have to continue going on this trade.

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Speaker 1: The hunger strike is probably as old as society, and

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Speaker 1: I can point to it. One of the places I

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Speaker 1: can point to that easily is in Ireland. There's a

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Speaker 1: but I hunt law, which is the pre colonial legal

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Speaker 1: system of Ireland. And I promise I didn't go out

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Speaker 1: of my way to find out to work it into

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Speaker 1: this episode, even though it's come up a bunch of

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Speaker 1: times recently on this shows. There's a bunch of written

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Speaker 1: records of Brahaon law. But it's also impossible to translate

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Speaker 1: with certainty because it's it was not a particularly write

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Speaker 1: things down culture. And okay, there's lots of reasons, right,

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Speaker 1: but overall the idea seems to have been passed down

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Speaker 1: successfully throughout history and I think it's neat and hunger

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Speaker 1: strikes are literally written into ancient Irish legal code, so

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Speaker 1: to talk about the law system in general, of like

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Speaker 1: this is the sort of pre Christian and up to

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Speaker 1: early Christian actually up to different parts of Ireland was

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Speaker 1: up to like the middle of the like fifteen hundreds

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Speaker 1: and some places up to about nineteen hundred, you had

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Speaker 1: elements of this law. Individuals didn't have absolute ownership of land. Instead,

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Speaker 1: lands were owned by the larger clan and then divvied up,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes they were divvied up equally, sometimes hierarchically. But

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Speaker 1: everyone had access to a whole bunch of common land,

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Speaker 1: including pastures but also some pastures, but also all the forests,

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Speaker 1: mountain mountains, bogs and wastelands. And then a lot of

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Speaker 1: the decision making would happen at these huge assemblies that

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Speaker 1: would meet in graveyards because their entire legal system grew

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Speaker 1: out of funeral practices because the Irish have got in

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Speaker 1: their blood.

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Speaker 3: Wow yeah, wow, that is just sick.

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Speaker 1: Yeah totally. And then also really interestingly, most crime and

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Speaker 1: punishment was not up to the state, like the clan

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Speaker 1: leaders are king or whatever the fuck right. Only political

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Speaker 1: crimes were handled by the state. If you're trying to

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Speaker 1: like go over the government, the states like as kind

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Speaker 1: of about us, we should probably do something right. All

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Speaker 1: other crime, like stealing shit and murdering people and all

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff was handled by a sort of

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Speaker 1: non state court. A jury of peers would investigate the

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Speaker 1: crime and then bring their findings to a judge. And

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Speaker 1: the judge was a Breyhon and who would decide the

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Speaker 1: right or right and wrong of it and then meet

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Speaker 1: out a punishment. And the Brehons would like the judges

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Speaker 1: would like go different places. Sometimes it's different. It changed

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Speaker 1: over time, right, like sometimes they were more formal, sometimes

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Speaker 1: they were less formal. For a while, anyone could be

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Speaker 1: a judge as long as they were like a learned guy.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it was mentally or not. Actually,

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Speaker 1: there's like weird. Gender in ancient Ireland was way more

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Speaker 1: equal than most of the rest of history. It was,

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Speaker 1: but it was also not perfect, you know.

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Speaker 3: Right, better better than most, yeah, but not perfect.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then so later. So originally any and at

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Speaker 1: least any dude who was like considered learned could become one.

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Speaker 1: And then eventually it was you had to study for

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Speaker 1: twenty years in order to be one.

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Speaker 3: Twenty years. Yeah, what do you study for twenty years?

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Speaker 1: I guess you just I don't know. It's probably a

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Speaker 1: combination of ethics and like precedent and social norms and

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Speaker 1: all kinds of shit. It seemed to work fairly well, okay,

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Speaker 1: they most punishments weren't vengeance based. There was capital punishment existed,

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Speaker 1: but it was like really rare. In some places in

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Speaker 1: the old myths and stuff, they'll be like, oh, anyone

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Speaker 1: who kills someone must die or whatever, but that was like,

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Speaker 1: actually rarely what happened in practice. Other high level punishments

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Speaker 1: were banishment and gouging out the eyes, but these were

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Speaker 1: not so different. Yeah, I know, right, These were not common.

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Speaker 1: Usually it was basically debt. Now you owe this family,

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Speaker 1: like some of your land, some of your chickens. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if their chickens are not some of you know,

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Speaker 1: some of your money whatever. There's no cops. There's no prisons,

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Speaker 1: or rather, there's no public prisons for some really bad crimes.

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Speaker 1: If you're in debt and can't pay it, you become

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Speaker 1: a slave to the other family until your debt is paid.

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Speaker 1: Oh and then you go free. So it would be

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Speaker 1: like instead of prison, it's like, well, now you're in

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Speaker 1: prison of you killed this family's kid, so now you've

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Speaker 1: got to like serve them for five years.

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Speaker 3: I don't honestly, that doesn't not make sense to me personally.

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Speaker 3: But it doesn't make sense, or it doesn't not it

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Speaker 3: doesn't not make sense. Yeah, no, it it's like if

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Speaker 3: you're if you're gonna just just to if we pretend

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Speaker 3: that someone did a terrible thing to family, the least

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Speaker 3: they could do is serve the family for redemption, you

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Speaker 3: know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: So, I mean it's better than fucking throwing someone in

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Speaker 1: prison for twenty years. Yeah, like learn how to do

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Speaker 1: crime and have a horrible life and are tortured.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, totally.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And usually though it was like all right, you

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Speaker 1: lost your lands or you got to give up some

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Speaker 1: cows or whatever. To these folks, it was fairly the

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Speaker 1: reason that there wasn't capital punishment much in it. I

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Speaker 1: think this is a little bit my inference. It was

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Speaker 1: a successful method of stopping like revenge killings and mob

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Speaker 1: rule right, all without the interference of an actual state

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Speaker 1: or a specialized roles besides the judges. And if the judge,

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Speaker 1: the one who study for twenty years, if he gives

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Speaker 1: a he gives a ruling that later people overturn, the

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Speaker 1: judge often loses their job for good because they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you actually did. It's like you had to study for

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Speaker 1: twenty years because you have to get this right. You

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Speaker 1: can't fuck this up, right, you know.

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Speaker 3: I mean I think I was thinking about it as

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Speaker 3: after we said twenty years thing, and it feels like

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Speaker 3: they're just waiting for the person to get older, like

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Speaker 3: to be like older and wiser, you know, like, oh,

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Speaker 3: you have to wait at least twenty years because your

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Speaker 3: brain needs to evolve a bit and then you can

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Speaker 3: make decisions. But it is interesting, yeah yeah, yeah, no.

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Speaker 1: I I mean like I have like notes. This isn't

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Speaker 1: like a no note situation, but like it sounds better

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Speaker 1: than what we live with currently by oh yeah, magnitude, Yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, and so what does it have to do

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Speaker 1: with hunger strikes? I'm glad you asked my own script. Well, Ireland,

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Speaker 1: what does it have to do with hunger strikes? I'm

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Speaker 1: glad you asked. Ireland and India had really specific and

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Speaker 1: interesting overlaps in this ancient law, and one of them

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Speaker 1: was the right to redress by fasting by hunger strike.

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Speaker 1: So if you've if you've been wronged by someone who's

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Speaker 1: socially above you, like a clan leader, king or whatever

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Speaker 1: the fuck, it sure is hard to enforce because like

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Speaker 1: you know, there's no cops, right and like you're not

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Speaker 1: gonna be able to come up with as strong of

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Speaker 1: like a posse as the other guy is. So there's

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Speaker 1: tristcod fasting, and it is the legal process of show

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Speaker 1: up at your better's doorstep, wait outside, refusing to eat

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Speaker 1: until he socially shamed into complying with the judgment against him.

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Speaker 3: So shame is the driving force. Yes, you're across the board.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and and it'll come up a couple times in

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Speaker 1: this but the it's not make someone change their mind,

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Speaker 1: it's not change their heart. It is shame. It is

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Speaker 1: embarrassed them in front of their community.

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Speaker 3: It's not I don't want to see this person die,

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Speaker 3: it's I don't want people to think I'm terrible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, Okay, And then I fell down this rabbit hole.

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Speaker 1: I was like, why the fuck is it? India and

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Speaker 1: Ireland are the two places with this written into their

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Speaker 1: ancient legal codes. Mm hmmm, well, and I get really annoyed. Okay, So,

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Speaker 1: like a lot of people who want to talk about

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Speaker 1: like similarities between far flung cultures are conspiracy minded and

347
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,439
Speaker 1: like talking about aliens and like just like not on

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Speaker 1: a page that I'm really interested in or like really

349
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Speaker 1: interested in some like racial myths that I have just

350
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Speaker 1: like no fucking time. But the best explanation that I've

351
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Speaker 1: been able to find. You've got Indo European languages, right,

352
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Speaker 1: This is the larger family tree of languages that forty

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Speaker 1: six percent of the world speaks as a first language.

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Speaker 1: Everything from English and Irish to Italian to Bengali to

355
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Speaker 1: Farsi are all Indo European languages. They almost certainly originate

356
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Speaker 1: from a language that gets called proto Indo European. People

357
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Speaker 1: like to argue about where that came from, but currently

358
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Speaker 1: the sort of scientific consensus is that it came from

359
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Speaker 1: the Pontic Caspian Step, which is a region that covers

360
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Speaker 1: like Ukraine to Kazakistan, kind of like near the Black

361
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Speaker 1: Sea and shit, where the Yamnaya people lived around three

362
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Speaker 1: thousand BC. And then it's spread out from there, and

363
00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,480
Speaker 1: it spread out so well because the Yamnaya people might

364
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Speaker 1: have been the first horseback riders in the world. WHOA, Yeah,

365
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:03,880
Speaker 1: I decided not to go down a huge rabbit hole

366
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Speaker 1: about horses. But one day, one day, yeah, I would

367
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Speaker 1: love that. I was like, my like horse girl friend

368
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Speaker 1: was like explaining, got really excited about every time I

369
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Speaker 1: do any research, she's able to tie it into horses

370
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Speaker 1: in one way or another, and this one was like

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Speaker 1: really easy.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I love horses. I will always remember this

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Speaker 3: one comment. This random person I don't even remember who

374
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Speaker 3: made this comment, but it was someone in a circle

375
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Speaker 3: of friends or something, and they were saying that like something.

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Speaker 3: I was just saying something about how oh, I was

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Speaker 3: really upset because in medieval times it really feels like

378
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Speaker 3: they abuse the horses or like they drug them up

379
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Speaker 3: or whatever. They seem so miserable. Yeah, And then the

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Speaker 3: person was like, well, horses are meant to be ridden

381
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Speaker 3: on by humans, like that's where they're that's why they're there,

382
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Speaker 3: or whatever, like something indicating that, like the horses on this.

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Speaker 1: Planet, yeah, yeah, to.

384
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Speaker 3: Have a human on top of it. And I got

385
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 3: so pissed. And my main personality trait is that I'm angry.

386
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Speaker 3: I hide it very well, but I'm usually very angry

387
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Speaker 3: all the time. And I got so mad, and I

388
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Speaker 3: was like, what do you fucking mean, like a it's

389
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Speaker 3: an animal. Yeah, it would have been here if you

390
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,920
Speaker 3: were here. So I don't know. Horses I think are

391
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 3: beautiful creatures and I would love a horse rabbit hole

392
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 3: one day. Yeah, sorry for that tangent. I just always

393
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 3: think of that. I guess so mad.

394
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Speaker 1: No, No, I'm like making a mental note than when

395
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 1: I do a horse episode, I should have you as

396
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 1: the guest. So if there, if there's this Indo European culture,

397
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Speaker 1: then some of its furthest fringes, the furthest it gets.

398
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Speaker 1: Some of it is Ireland in India, right, northern India,

399
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 1: mm hmm. And this is the more conjectural part of this.

400
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Speaker 1: At the fringes, older tradition's hand hang on longer because

401
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 1: they're not as like often conquered, right, Ireland wasn't conquered

402
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Speaker 1: by Rome, so Roman stuff didn't replace Irish stuff the

403
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 1: way that Roman stuff replaced like ancient British stuff, for example.

404
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 1: And this hypothesis is used to explain a bunch of

405
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,919
Speaker 1: overlaps between Celtic and Vedic culture and cosmology, Vedic culture

406
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 1: being ancient Hinduism basically some differences there. But and again

407
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,800
Speaker 1: anything that's like learn about ancient religions and their overlap,

408
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 1: I'm like taken with a fucking grain assault. So I'm

409
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,680
Speaker 1: not like coming in hard being like, but it sure

410
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 1: is interesting that there's a ton of linguistic mythological overlaps,

411
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Speaker 1: and in this particular case, the right to redress by

412
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Speaker 1: by hunger strike. But of course Ireland and India aren't

413
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Speaker 1: the only places where hunger strikes happened historically. They also

414
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Speaker 1: happen in our gnome. No, it's usually we're actually sponsored

415
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: by people who give us food, won't sell people food advertisers.

416
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:16,600
Speaker 1: Here they go and we're back. So what is a

417
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Speaker 1: hunger strike? It's fairly self evident. I think I'm guessing

418
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: it's when you refuse to eat until your demands are

419
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,360
Speaker 1: met It falls into the larger category of non violence

420
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: nonviolent resistance, and I think people tend to misunderstand nonviolent resistance.

421
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 1: We've talked about some non violent resistance on this show.

422
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:37,959
Speaker 1: I admit that sometimes we've talked a little bit more

423
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: about the violent resistance. But we'll continue to talk about

424
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: non violence resistance on the show too. Understand the traditional

425
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 1: conception of the hunger strike. I'm going to turn back

426
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Speaker 1: to Ireland because there's this Irish writer, This guy actually sucks.

427
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: His name's Yates. He's a piece.

428
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 3: I like that you preface it with that so I

429
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,719
Speaker 3: could know exactly what I should be thinking when you're

430
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 3: saying it. Yeah, this guy sucks, just foy I and

431
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 3: this is the context. Yeah I love that.

432
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like I love Yeates's poem The Second Coming, But

433
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 1: it's like I love it because it's about everything falling

434
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: apart he and it presents it as if it's bad,

435
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,120
Speaker 1: and I'm like, yeah, the center can hold mere anarchy

436
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 1: is loosed upon the world. What rough be slouching towards Bethlehem?

437
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 1: Like I'm into it, but.

438
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 3: Like look at to do list. Yeah, totally.

439
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 1: Yeats was always I mean, he was like being an

440
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: Irish nationalist is actually very complicated who is not necessarily

441
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 1: a right wing position like any anti colonial nationalism. But

442
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,119
Speaker 1: later he just was a fascist. He just was like, man,

443
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: democracy sucks. Hitler's great support the Blue Shirts, which were

444
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 1: like Ireland's fascist movement, so he sucks. But he summed

445
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 1: up the hunger strike really well in his play The

446
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: King's Threshold. This is a line from The King, and

447
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 1: now I kind of like, I haven't read the whole play.

448
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 1: I kind of wonder whether he's like actually trying to

449
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: talk shit on hunger strikes and he's just making it cool,

450
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: you know, because that seems to be his thing.

451
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:02,920
Speaker 3: Right.

452
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: The King says he has chosen death, refusing to eat

453
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: or drink, that he may bring disgrace upon me. For

454
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 1: there is a custom, an old and foolish custom, that

455
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: if a man be wronged, or think that he is wronged,

456
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: and starve upon another's threshold till he die, the common

457
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: people for all time to come will raise a heavy

458
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 1: cry against that threshold, even though it be the King's.

459
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's not about making someone have a

460
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,959
Speaker 1: like ghost of Christmas past revelation that they were like

461
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: on the wrong side of history and like they should

462
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: be nice to people. It's about being like, not only

463
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: will everyone hate you, but like a thousand years from

464
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: now people are still going to fucking hate you.

465
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 2: You know.

466
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's pretty strong. Hatred is strong.

467
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:52,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it mo it is. Why not it's your

468
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: primary emotion, as you've expressed.

469
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean it's there, Yeah, it's ever present.

470
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 1: I want to contrast it with a quote that I

471
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: think is a true quote by future friend of the

472
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: pod Assada Shakur, and this is from an autobiography. The

473
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: quote is nobody in the world, nobody in history, has

474
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: ever gotten their freedom by appealing to the moral sense

475
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,160
Speaker 1: of the people who are pressing them. And people use

476
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: that quote to dismiss nonviolence. But I think this is

477
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: an important quote with which to understand nonviolence because it

478
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: isn't about appealing to the moral sense of people. Because

479
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: like when cops like, getting beat up by cops doesn't

480
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: make cops feel bad, you know, right, And it doesn't

481
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: make the people who sent out those cops feel bad.

482
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: The answer to how do you sleep at night is

483
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 1: usually like a baby in my make mansion that I

484
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: bought with the money I made by hurting people, you know.

485
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: But when nonviolence is ostensibly capable of doing, is shaming

486
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 1: the cops and those who sent them out in front

487
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: of their community. And the problem is, i'man to conjecture

488
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: land here woo. In a capitalist society, community is almost

489
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 1: meaningless term, right, since money is the primary thing of value.

490
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 1: Non violence isn't always effective because you can be like

491
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: you'd be like, I don't care if my neighbors hate me.

492
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 1: I have a fucking McMansion, you know. Yeah, So it

493
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: takes a functioning society and a healthy community to allow

494
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 1: nonviolence to work out its most effective, which means that

495
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 1: if you don't want the people you're pressing to fucking

496
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: murder you, you should listen to shame and anyway should

497
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: let nonviolence work. Hunger strikes, as I've seen them, don't

498
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: tend to work when it's like some random person who

499
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: isn't in prison or isn't directly oppressed, who's just like

500
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: I'm going to go on hunger strike until the climate

501
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: change is solved or whatever. Right, But when movements of people,

502
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: especially prisoners or refugees or other people who are in

503
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: some way unfree, when they do it, it can be

504
00:28:55,520 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 1: powerful as hell. Humans can live for a while without food.

505
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: It's not a good idea. I'm not advocating this. I

506
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 1: think people probably picked up on the content note based

507
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: on the title of the episode. I hope. So your

508
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: body feeds itself with your body fat and then your

509
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: muscles and bone, and you're like bone, marrow and shit,

510
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: and sometimes around usually sixty to seventy days, you die,

511
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 1: sometimes way earlier than that, sometimes longer than that. And

512
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: a lot of hunger strikers die. You are playing chicken

513
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 1: with the government when you hunger strike. Prisons have dealt

514
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: with this in a couple of ways. One of them,

515
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: one of the older ways they don't tend to do

516
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: this anymore, is that they would just release people when

517
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: they started to get sick. They did this with a

518
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 1: lot of the Suffragettes. Actually in England, Suffergets actually did

519
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: a bunch of hunger strike stuff that isn't in this episode.

520
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: And one day I'll cover the Suffragettes and how they

521
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: were in some ways very cool and in some ways

522
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 1: not because of the racism, just in case people were

523
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: wondering why anyway, So they would let these people go

524
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: and then as soon as they were healthy again, you'd

525
00:29:58,440 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: put them back in prison.

526
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 3: You know, oh my god.

527
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: And then the other way, go eat and then come back. Yeah, totally, totally.

528
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: The other way, the newer fangled way is that they

529
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: put a tube up your nose and down into your throat.

530
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy five, the World Medical Association declared that

531
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: doctors should not force feed strikers and that it is

532
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: a form of torture. This has stopped almost no one.

533
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: Whenever international law makes something illegal, it doesn't change anything.

534
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 3: Maybe oh not at all. International law is the most

535
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 3: empty bucket of words, like nothing actually like I don't know,

536
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 3: Like Palestine's a great example of that. You'll hear like

537
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 3: these real violated international laws committing crimes against humanity. Here

538
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 3: they go again, Like it's basically all it is it

539
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 3: actually ever happens. Yeah, it doesn't mean anything at all.

540
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, EU still won't recognize Palestine.

541
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 3: Like yeah, it's like, oh, Israel is an apartheid state.

542
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 3: This is all the organizations that say so, oh well,

543
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 3: like it's basically the vibe of it, Like there's nothing

544
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 3: actually like powerful about international law at all.

545
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: It's like when men acknowledge that their friends are sketchy

546
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: to women but don't do anything about it.

547
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 3: You know, Like that's a good comparison.

548
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: I remember, like one of my friends was assaulted by

549
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: someone and then their roommate was like, oh, sorry, but

550
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: my friend he's a titty grabber when he's drunk.

551
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 3: That's it.

552
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, You're like, all right, we've determined this man is

553
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: a kitty grabber. Should there be consequences?

554
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 3: Right? Should we have a talk?

555
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: Yeah?

556
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 3: At least?

557
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know that's international law and palace fine, yeah, yeah,

558
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: titty grabbing. The Bureau of Prisons in the US, for example,

559
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: says that it is quote it is the responsibility of

560
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: the Bureau of Prisons to monitor the health and welfare

561
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: of individual inmates and to ensure that procedures are pursued

562
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 1: to preserve life. Which is really funny because I have

563
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: a friend who teaches harm reduction and gives it harm

564
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,959
Speaker 1: reduction supplies and has had to like go into prisons

565
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: and teach guards how to use nelocks own and love

566
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: the reverse OD drug, and the prison guards have it

567
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: and they just don't use it. They just watch people

568
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: die because they're all like, oh, they believe that, you know,

569
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: the cops of that we are like folklore that if

570
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: you're in the same room as fentanyl and you're already dead,

571
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, yeah, So the Bureau of Prisons clearly

572
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: very committed.

573
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 3: To Oh yeah, they care about them so much.

574
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course they do. Yeah. Some hunger strikers go

575
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: until they die, some give up. Others like those North

576
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: African strikers and the squads of Athens, have their demands met.

577
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: And first we're going to talk about the Irish hunger

578
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: strike of nineteen eighty one. I have avoided talking about

579
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: twenty century Irish history for a reason. The reason is

580
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: twentieth century Irish history is messy as fuck. But considering that,

581
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: the other thing we're gonna talk about this week is Palestine,

582
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: it's just complicated week where yeah, yeah, once Ireland was colonized,

583
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: you had really clear good guys and bad guys for

584
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: a while, right, Irish was anti colonial, like the Irish

585
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 1: anti colonial uprisings, they were good. England was bad. There's

586
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: some blurriness. There's people who mistakenly frame it as a

587
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: Catholic versus Protestant think. Solely the Catholic Church was up

588
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: to a lot of no good against the Irish Catholics,

589
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: and against other people. There were right wing and left

590
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: wing tendencies within the different resistance movements. Overall. Ireland good

591
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: England bad decent way to frame things. If you don't

592
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: want history to condemn your country with blanket statements, don't

593
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: be a genocidal colonial power. Until the Irish warfare independence

594
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: came to a truce on July eleventh, nineteen twenty one.

595
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: The short version of this truce was that basically, there's

596
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: the Irish War for Independence was happening, and they were like, fuck,

597
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 1: you get the fuck out of our country, right, and

598
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: they were doing all right, And then England was like,

599
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: all right, we're offering you a deal. What if most

600
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: of Ireland becomes more or less independent, but it's still

601
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: a dominion of the UK, and you like, swear fealty

602
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: to our monarchy. And then we get a chunk of

603
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: northern Ireland and this stays formerly part of the United Kingdom.

604
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: And about half the Irish were like, yeah, I could

605
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 1: be done with war. This is really bad and it

606
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: keeps fucking killing us, so sure we'll take the deal.

607
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: The other half we're like, are you fucking kidding me?

608
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: Fuck the monarchy. Also, we get all of Ireland, not

609
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: most of Ireland. So they had a civil war, and

610
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,240
Speaker 1: the right for wrong gets way blurrier. At this point.

611
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: I've got a position in that my family was anti treaty,

612
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: which is to say, they fought for a unified Irish Republic.

613
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: This was by and large the more lefty side of things,

614
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: and the side that I think is better. It's also

615
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 1: the side that lost against a force that now had

616
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: the backing of the English Army that they'd just been fighting.

617
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: So as soon as Michael Collins and those other focks

618
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: were like, well, from my position, those other fucks were like, ah,

619
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 1: we've made a deal with England, they just like turn

620
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,439
Speaker 1: around and use fucking England to crush the people they'd

621
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 1: just been fighting alongside of My great uncle, who fought

622
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 1: in the Easter Rising, went to his grave cursing the

623
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:24,879
Speaker 1: name of Michael Collins, the IRA leader who sold out Ireland. Well,

624
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: then Irish politics got real fucking messy for basically the

625
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: entire twentieth century because you no longer have like now

626
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: you have Irish versus Irish right right, and this gets

627
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: flattened to Catholic versus Protestant, which is a bit of truth,

628
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: but the more accurate sides are loyalists who want Northern

629
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: Ireland to remain part of the UK, sometimes called unionists,

630
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: and then the nationalists who want Northern Ireland return to

631
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: the Republic of Ireland. And by and large the nationalists

632
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: are actually socialists and lefty, and actually many of them

633
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: were probably internationalists, and by and large the you know,

634
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 1: the other sides more right wing.

635
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 3: What we were there benefits to be I mean, there

636
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 3: had to have been benefits for being with England, no,

637
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 3: from their perspective.

638
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: I think, and I'm not entirely certain. I think that

639
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: there were probably a ton of economic benefits. But also

640
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: it was a lot of the people, especially in Northern Ireland,

641
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: maybe not the majority, but a lot of the people

642
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: were more culturally saw themselves as Anglican, saw themselves as

643
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: coming from England. And you also have it like it's

644
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 1: really messy, I mean, partly in that they're all white, right,

645
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,280
Speaker 1: so you can't like use like race to distinguish a lot.

646
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: Northern Ireland had a higher percentage of people who were

647
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: descended from English settlers, right, But people don't make a distinction,

648
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: and it's kind of interesting. People don't make a distinction

649
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:54,439
Speaker 1: of someone who has descended from English settlers versus someone

650
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 1: who's like family isn't right, And when they do make

651
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: that distinction, it's usually like versus Protestant. Frankly, but again

652
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:05,240
Speaker 1: that's a rude exaggeration. There are a ton of Protestants

653
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: who fought for Irish independence, right, But yeah, no, I

654
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,879
Speaker 1: actually I should know more about what the like.

655
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 3: I mean, I thought you should or not, But like,

656
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 3: I mean, it's just it's just pretty shitty to be like, oh, well,

657
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:24,879
Speaker 3: we're gonna fight the person I was just fighting next

658
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 3: to you because of X, Y and Z. Yeah, I

659
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 3: don't know. I mean, this is maybe also silly to

660
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 3: ask or even say out loud. Are there like if

661
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 3: there's no racism involved the color? If the color doesn't

662
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 3: play a factor, do accents play a factor? Like I've like,

663
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 3: you know, how like certain accents indicate you're like from

664
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 3: a shitty part of town quote unquote, or like you're

665
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 3: from this area or whatever. Does that you think play

666
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 3: a factor with English versus Ireland or not? Really?

667
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: I mostly don't know, because I don't know about Northern Ireland,

668
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: where most of this tension is happening. I only know

669
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: about it as it relates to Ireland as a whole.

670
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: You have a lot of oppression against the gel Tech

671
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 1: to the Irish speaking part of Ireland, which is largely

672
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 1: the northwest and the West coast of Ireland. Okay, and

673
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: I know that there is a large cultural difference, but

674
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: I know more about this in the nineteenth century than

675
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: I do in the early twentieth century, just based on

676
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: what I've read.

677
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 3: That's fair. I'm just kind of yeah, no, no, no,

678
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 3: it's yeah.

679
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 1: I mean because like there's all these times throughout this

680
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: where you're going to talk about like people machine gunning

681
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 1: Catholics on the street, and I'm like, how'd they know

682
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 1: they were Catholic?

683
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:33,399
Speaker 3: Right?

684
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 1: There probably has some way of knowing it. I just

685
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: don't currently know what that way is.

686
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 3: I don't know if they did, but okay, yeah, right,

687
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 3: like how do you well?

688
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like if someone's like walking down the

689
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 1: street holding the like, I.

690
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:50,960
Speaker 3: Don't know unless they're like I'm Catholic, like a sign

691
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 3: or something.

692
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, no, I don't know, And it wasn't a

693
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: lot of our listeners do know, because a lot of

694
00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 1: our listeners are Irish. So let us know, but let

695
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: us know in a polite way instead of what the

696
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 1: fuck is wrong with you? Ay, So in nineteen twenty two,

697
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 1: the Northern Irish government, the brand new government, passes the

698
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: Special Powers Act. This is going to be completely unrecognizable

699
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 1: to people who study what's happening in Palestine right now,

700
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 1: where suspects no longer had to be charged with crimes

701
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: in order to be arrested.

702
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:24,240
Speaker 3: Yeah in Ireland.

703
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:29,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, in Northern Ireland, which is you know, the other country,

704
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:30,919
Speaker 1: the conflict, the zone.

705
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so that sounds about right, I mean taking

706
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 3: tips for israel.

707
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,399
Speaker 1: I guess yeah, well it's the way around Israel doesn't

708
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:39,280
Speaker 1: exist at this point.

709
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 3: Wait, what time are we talking to? Twenty two twenty two? Okay, yes,

710
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 3: I was still I was jumping around in my head.

711
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: No, no, it's okay.

712
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:49,720
Speaker 3: From bringing me back to that area.

713
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: Well, there's going to be like direct overlap later when

714
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: I get to the sixties and seventies. But yeah, the

715
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: Special Powers Act mean that suspects could be arrested and

716
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: flogged without trial. So basically, and the cop is allowed

717
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: to beat up anyone they want. They're like, oh, you're

718
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 1: like arrested, not I gonna hit you? Like so Nationalists

719
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 1: got elected in Northern Ireland in nineteen twenty two, and

720
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 1: they're like democratic elections, and the government was like, oh,

721
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: never mind about democracy, and so they just redrew all

722
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: the lines so that Nationals couldn't get elected, which isn't

723
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,120
Speaker 1: familiar in the United States. Loyalists and therefore generally Protestants

724
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 1: were given preferential treatment with housing and jobs and shit.

725
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: The ninety percent Protestant cops love beating up Catholics and

726
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:32,280
Speaker 1: we're generally not good. And this goes on and largely

727
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 1: armed resistance takes a back seat for a while. A

728
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: couple of the generation or so. Nineteen sixty nine, a

729
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 1: civil rights struggle by the Catholics in Northern Ireland kicks up.

730
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 1: And this is a this is a civil rights struggle.

731
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 1: It's not actually a let's reunite with Ireland struggle. It's

732
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: a just like, could you stop please beating us all

733
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: up and giving it discriminating against us. And this kicks

734
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,439
Speaker 1: off what's known as the Truble, when the British Army

735
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,919
Speaker 1: comes and occupies the area and responds to the civil

736
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 1: rights struggle. But you know, I won't give you any trouble.

737
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: It's the stuff it's it's buying stuff. It's just like

738
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: it's almost like our entire system is set up to

739
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: allow you to spend money that you don't even have.

740
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 1: You could go into debt to buy with whatever comes.

741
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 3: No, it's one thing you can rely on, you know,

742
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 3: just how buying things works. Yeah, good job, that was

743
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 3: a great segway. Good job.

744
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: Thanks, There you go and we're back. I am struggling

745
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 1: to come up with a more British word for thirty

746
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: year War of occupation than the troubles, Like.

747
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 3: It makes it sound almost cute and unfortunately like, Oh

748
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 3: I have the I have the sniffles. Oh, I have

749
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 3: the rumbles of my tummy. Yeah, I'm really dying, That's

750
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 3: what it sounds like.

751
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally a little bit of a rough there as

752
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:11,120
Speaker 1: you're on fire. Yeah. And so soon enough the let's

753
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: not like, let's just not get treated like shit campaign

754
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:19,800
Speaker 1: becomes actually let's rejoin Ireland campaign. The IRA the Irish

755
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: Republican Army, which was the name of the military force

756
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 1: that won independence from England that came out of the

757
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: Irish Republican Brotherhood. They they have split into a million

758
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: pieces at this point, including but not limited to the

759
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: Real IRA, the Official IRA, the Provisional IRA, and the

760
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: National Liberation Irish National Liberation Army. Most of these groups

761
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: are socialists, but they disagree about things that I'm sure

762
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: seemed important at the time. Sometimes they shoot each other

763
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 1: over these things. And they and a bunch of other

764
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:58,840
Speaker 1: folks are now attacking and have been, but are now

765
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 1: especially they're attacking British occupiers, and they're attacking loyalists and

766
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: their riots, and there's lots of terrorist attacks on both sides.

767
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 1: More than half the people killed and the whole mess

768
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 1: were civilians fifty two percent of the people killed in

769
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: the troubles, which is part of why like, like, I

770
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: don't have like a lot of communication Irish family, but

771
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 1: they like overall were like, man, we don't want to

772
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 1: talk about politics. This is like what you know, because

773
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 1: you're like, this is just a bad thing that happened.

774
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: Right to a lot of people's perspective. A majority of

775
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 1: the civilians killed in the troubles were killed by loyalist

776
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 1: paramilitaries like the Ulster Volunteer Force the UVF, or by

777
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: British soldiers, but the IRA absolutely killed a lot of

778
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: civilians too. The Republican side killed more Republican fighters than

779
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:49,760
Speaker 1: their enemies did, which is kind of bad, right, Why

780
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: is that in fighting? Oh? Just where the real IRA

781
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: it's in our name, or where the official IRA, well

782
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 1: where the provisional provisional doesn't actually sound as like tough.

783
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 3: Honestly, like the most childish bullshit. But also like with guns,

784
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 3: it's like you're at recess but with weapons, you know

785
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 3: what I mean.

786
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 1: Like, it's no, totally I don't know, but I will

787
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 1: say I was talking to my friends about this before

788
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: we recorded. I don't think that they are to blame entirely.

789
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 1: I think England put them in this position. Like people

790
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:23,880
Speaker 1: talk about.

791
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:26,280
Speaker 3: Life, I'm just mad about fighting in job, Yeah, telling anyone,

792
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 3: I'm just thinking, Yeah, fighting is actually pretty silly when

793
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 3: you think about it.

794
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of times, especially on your own fucking side,

795
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: people talk about crabs in a bucket pulling each other down, right,

796
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: and they'll be like, oh, it's human nature. Crabs in

797
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 1: a bucket always pulling each other down. The bucket is

798
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 1: not the crab's natural habitat. That's a very good point,

799
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,240
Speaker 1: and I don't know if the other side started it, though,

800
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 1: is a decent excuse for all of the killing that

801
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: included a lot of civilians. But the terrorism and civilian

802
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: murders started the Ulcer Volunteer Force, the loyalist paramilitary group,

803
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 1: whom they just started bombing Catholic homes and schools and

804
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: shooting random Catholics on the street. That's what kicked off

805
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 1: this violence. So in nineteen seventy one, the British Army

806
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: conducted Operation Demetrius, which swept up three hundred and forty

807
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: two people suspected of involvement in the IRA. A lot

808
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 1: of the people that they swept up had long since

809
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: retired from the IRA or had never been involved at all.

810
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:30,959
Speaker 1: They also swept up a bunch of the civil rights

811
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 1: leaders who had no ties to any violence or even nationalism.

812
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 1: And of course, even though the UVF was actually killing

813
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,440
Speaker 1: way more civilians and had started it, none of the

814
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: UVF was targeted by this sweep because it's not that

815
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 1: the British government disapproved of terrorist violence, it's that they

816
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: disapproved of terrorist violence against the British government, and this

817
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: only escalated the sectarian violence. When all these people got arrested,

818
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: folks weren't actually accused of any crime. This wasn't imprisonment

819
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: it was in tournament and thousands of people were interred

820
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 1: as a result of this. In nineteen seventy two, you

821
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: get the thing that caused you two to write the

822
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 1: only good song that they wrote, which I don't even

823
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 1: know if they wrote, but they play.

824
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 3: You're gonna have to tell me you chose something that

825
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 3: I purposely know nothing about.

826
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 2: Great. Yeah, My main, my main thing that I know

827
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 2: about you too is that they snuck that album on

828
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 2: everybody's phone.

829
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 3: That's all. That's the only thing I know and want

830
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:28,879
Speaker 3: to know.

831
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, and Bono wear sunglasses all the time and.

832
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 1: He likes things. He's like saving the world, but he's

833
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: actually just a liberal pon. Yeah. No, but they were

834
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: a song called blood or they play I don't know

835
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 1: wrote I didn't look it up. They have a song

836
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 1: called Bloody Sunday. A thing happened in nineteen seventy two

837
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,880
Speaker 1: that's called Bloody Sunday. And there was a protest march.

838
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: You know, got all this paramilitary stuff happening in the

839
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 1: IRA fighting all like that. There was also just social

840
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 1: movements with thousands and thousands of people who were fighting

841
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: but through less clandestine means, and most of this was

842
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: organized or a lot of this. This particular march we're

843
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 1: going to talk about was organized by the Northern Ireland

844
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 1: Civil Rights Association NICRA and it was a big, peaceful,

845
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 1: unarmed march in the city of Derry. Darry was a

846
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: majority Catholic and it was majority Nationalist. But so because

847
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: it was Catholic, it had been cut out of public funding.

848
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: The roads were like fucking gone to shit, and it

849
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:28,240
Speaker 1: was basically being like economically mistreated by the loyalist government.

850
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,840
Speaker 1: So there was a protest march. The Prime Minister was like, no,

851
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 1: you can't have a march, and people were like, why

852
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 1: would I care what you have to say about that,

853
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,280
Speaker 1: We're going to have a march. Ten or fifteen thousand

854
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 1: people marched. The occupying army started by shooting rubber bullets

855
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: and tear gas, so people started throwing rocks at the army.

856
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:52,000
Speaker 1: The army opened fire. They shot twenty six people, many

857
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 1: of whom were running away or were rendering aid. Every

858
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: eye witness besides the soldiers attest to this. The soldiers

859
00:47:58,080 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 1: were like, no, we only shot people who were throwing

860
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 1: nail bombs at us, even though there was no evidence

861
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: of that.

862
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 3: I mean, that's classic what you say, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, rocks,

863
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, totally.

864
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: That person threw a rock in my general direction, so

865
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 1: I shot his mother.

866
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:18,040
Speaker 3: Yes exactly. Oh, okay, and that's in that case, that's

867
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 3: totally fair.

868
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. Is that man's fault for throwing the rock.

869
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 1: At least one soldier was seen shooting randomly into the crowd,

870
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 1: firing from the hip. Fourteen people, all Catholics, were killed.

871
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 1: All of them were unarmed, Six of them were boys.

872
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: One was a fifty nine year old man who hadn't

873
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: been part of the march. He'd just been walking through

874
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: the neighborhood and he died from his wounds a few

875
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,840
Speaker 1: days later. This wasn't even the only massacre the British

876
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:52,720
Speaker 1: Army did in Northern Ireland this year. Tens of thousands

877
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 1: of people came to the funeral. In the nearby country

878
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: of Actual Ireland. They held a day of mourning with

879
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 1: Saramon's held at both Catholic and Protestant churches, because again,

880
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 1: I mean, religion is part of it, but it's not

881
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: the whole fucking thing, like people want us to believe.

882
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 1: The largest general strike that Europe had ever seen since

883
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: the since World War Two, happened. As a result of this,

884
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: thousands of people marched to the British Embassy in Dublin

885
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: and they protested with a very respectable diversity of tactics.

886
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 1: Some people non violently placed thirteen coffins on the steps

887
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: of the British embassy. Other people burned the embassy down.

888
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: Both acceptable, I think, I agree. Diversity of tactics makes it.

889
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 3: Honestly and both extremely symbolic and poetic. I will go

890
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:43,239
Speaker 3: I'll go that far. I think those are chef's kiss

891
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 3: if you can let me say that.

892
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, No, both of those are great. I

893
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 1: fully support the one conclusion that came out of Bloody

894
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 1: Sunday for the Irish of the Republic of Ireland and

895
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: for the nationalists in Northern Ireland, it was pretty much

896
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 1: that the I that paramilitary force was legitimate and that

897
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,720
Speaker 1: it was a war against colonial occupation in Northern Ireland.

898
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: And so the IRA sees itself as a legitimate army.

899
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 1: It does not see itself as like, well doesn't see

900
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 1: itself as terrorists. It sees itself as an army.

901
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:17,960
Speaker 3: Well, of course it doesn't.

902
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, they think that they had a good reason

903
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:23,520
Speaker 1: to believe what they believed, and I overall agree with them.

904
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 1: I also don't like when armies target civilians, but yeah,

905
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: it doesn't make them not an army.

906
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, also does that make them not terrorists?

907
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 1: Right totally? But yeah, I mean both can be true. Yeah,

908
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 1: fucking these words are anyway. So things are heating up.

909
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 1: The interred prisoners. They're actually given for a while something

910
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: called special category status, which is basically prisoner of war status,

911
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 1: and so the Geneva Can Conventions applied to them. And

912
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: how the IRA won that status for themselves was force

913
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 1: of arms. It was a precondition for any discussion of

914
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 1: a truce, right. The government's like, oh, let's like figure

915
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 1: this out, and they were like, you better treat our

916
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 1: arrested people like prisoners of war before we'll even talk

917
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 1: about coming to the table with you. So for a

918
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 1: little while you had that, and you had we'll talk

919
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: a little bit more about what that meant a little bit.

920
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 1: But a few years later the UK was like, eh,

921
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,479
Speaker 1: what if we stop treating them special We're like UK

922
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: and they're just fucking Ireland. Fuck them. In nineteen seventy six,

923
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 1: a fucking baron named Merlin, because the United Kingdom is

924
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 1: a fantasy land.

925
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,320
Speaker 3: Sorry one more time, just for emphasis.

926
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, this man his name, he was a baron named Merlin.

927
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 1: Got it spelled a little y instead of an eye.

928
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: Of course it is what was I think? Yeah, it's

929
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 1: completely different, so Baron Merlin ash.

930
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:54,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's unique.

931
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:59,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, he rolled away the rock from his grave. I

932
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 1: don't remember enough about what happened to Merlin. I think

933
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: he ended up with a rock in front of his grave.

934
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 3: His name was Merlin.

935
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:08,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, he announces no more special category status. Prisoners

936
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 1: are just fucking prisoners. They will have to wear prison

937
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,760
Speaker 1: clothes and do prison labor and shit. And by the way,

938
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:21,240
Speaker 1: the name of the prison was Her Majesty's Prison Maze.

939
00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 3: No it wasn't.

940
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:26,680
Speaker 1: It absolutely was. There was a nearby town called Maze,

941
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:31,600
Speaker 1: right but like ms Yeah, no, no wise in here,

942
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 1: so not corn, not corn like the trap.

943
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 3: So yeah.

944
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 1: So there's basically a minotaur in her center of Her

945
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 1: Majesty's Prison Maze.

946
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 3: And it's a lot. Sorry, this is just the most

947
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 3: British thing I've ever heard of my life. You know,

948
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 3: the troubles Her Majesty's Prison mays where Baron Merlin has changed.

949
00:52:57,560 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 3: If it wasn't so fucked up. It would be like,

950
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,480
Speaker 3: actually hilarious, Loki still is I know because we can

951
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 3: see it like say it in retrospect.

952
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 1: But like, come on, yeah, Like if you're going to

953
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 1: be the prison in the town of Maze, just be

954
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 1: like Maze's Prison or something. Don't be prison Maze and

955
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: don't be her Majesty's Prison. Mays No, unless you have

956
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,279
Speaker 1: a minotaur, then you can call it that.

957
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 3: Honestly, Okay, maybe this is crude, but it could be

958
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 3: sexual to her Majesty's Prison Maze, like that could be

959
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 3: some there's something there. I have it fleshed out completely,

960
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 3: but I think there's something there.

961
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: Anyway I do, we'll have new merch.

962
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

963
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,399
Speaker 1: And so this change of status to where people were

964
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 1: now being treated like regular prisoners, it didn't make people happy.

965
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: And to be clear, actually several times throughout what's going

966
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 1: to happen, the prisoners were like, it's not that we

967
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 1: want to be treated better than the other prisoners. You

968
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:00,879
Speaker 1: should treat them well too, What the fuck is wrong

969
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:04,520
Speaker 1: with you? But this change of status, it didn't make

970
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: people happy, and it didn't strip the status from previous intorneys,

971
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 1: but it fucked with all the new kids who did

972
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: something about it, which I'm gonna tell you about on Wednesday.

973
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:22,839
Speaker 3: A maze can be a bush, right, you can.

974
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 1: Have a bush may Oh, okay, I see where you're going.

975
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:33,319
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, I'm sorry, I'm not anyway. Is that the Yeah?

976
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 3: What what you got?

977
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:34,880
Speaker 1: Besides?

978
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 3: Uh, I am I'm one of the rotating hosts on

979
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 3: it could happen here, but the rest of them are

980
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 3: are fairly talented and phenomenal doing great work. So go

981
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 3: listen to that. I have my own podcast called Ethnically

982
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:55,399
Speaker 3: Ambiguous that I host with on a hose Nea and

983
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 3: the rest of the stuff. You can google if you

984
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 3: want to, but you don't have to. You can follow

985
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:04,279
Speaker 3: me on social if you want. Shiro Hero instagram' sure

986
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 3: a hero sixty six to six on Twitter, but I'm

987
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 3: actually not there anymore, so maybe you can encourage me

988
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 3: to be there. I would never encourage to Twitter on Twitter? Now, Okay? Great?

989
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 1: I mean on X.

990
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 2: On X.

991
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 3: God kill me. We thought Meadow was bad, you know,

992
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 3: we thought threat whatever X. Yeah, it's like Merlin, that's

993
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 3: you know what I mean? Like this, it's just as

994
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 3: nerdy as being.

995
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:30,720
Speaker 1: I think it is less respectable than Merlin.

996
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,720
Speaker 3: I agree, at least Merlin hunt magic.

997
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:36,279
Speaker 1: I know, wasn't that cutemated King Arthur that I watched

998
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 1: as a kid. Yeah, and his hat with all flopping yeah. Yeah,

999
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,720
Speaker 1: And if you want to see me, probably not dressed

1000
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:47,239
Speaker 1: up like a wizard. I will be tabling, presenting, and

1001
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:51,920
Speaker 1: playing at the Asheville Anarchist Book Fair, which is or

1002
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 1: it's called the Another Carolina Anarchist Book Fair because people

1003
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 1: are trying to make I mean, have successfully made clever

1004
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 1: acab puns. And that is August ninth through thirteenth of

1005
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three in Asheville, North Carolina. I will be

1006
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:11,360
Speaker 1: presenting a talk called a Halfway Concise History of Anarchism.

1007
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 1: So if you like listening to me talk about history,

1008
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 1: which you probably do if you made it this far,

1009
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 1: unless you're hate listening, in which case please don't come

1010
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 1: to my event, but keep listening for the numbers like yeah,

1011
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 1: totally set up a little machine that downloads it ever anyway,

1012
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 1: And then I'll be playing with my dark pop band

1013
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 1: solo project called Nomadic War Machine on Saturday night, so

1014
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: I will exist. I'm doing all of my socializing for

1015
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:41,000
Speaker 1: the year in two.

1016
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:43,839
Speaker 3: Days, right, Yeah, just knock it out. Yeah, get it down,

1017
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 3: then just stay home.

1018
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 1: Back to my house in the mountains as soon as

1019
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: it's over. Just kidding.

1020
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:55,319
Speaker 3: I can't wait to see you while there. Cut it out, Ian, right,

1021
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 3: you could just cut the other part Outquin.

1022
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:00,720
Speaker 1: Sophie.

1023
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 2: When you gotta plug, I just fall at cool zone

1024
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 2: media while you still can.

1025
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1026
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 1: Yet, I think I'm gonna not switch to another social media.

1027
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 1: I think I'm just gonna.

1028
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:18,440
Speaker 2: Here's what's here's what I find so creepy about it.

1029
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 2: I was like, let me go see what this app is,

1030
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 2: and it automatically enrolls you.

1031
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did the same thing I had to, and

1032
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 3: so I don't.

1033
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 2: I don't I like technically have an account, but I don't,

1034
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 2: but I didn't want to. And then it does this

1035
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:37,479
Speaker 2: weird thing where it like brands you and puts your

1036
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 2: like user bar code, like not bar like user number

1037
00:57:42,480 --> 00:57:45,960
Speaker 2: code on your Instagram profile. And it took me a

1038
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 2: really long time to figure out how to remove.

1039
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 1: That, but I did.

1040
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 2: Wait, yeah, so if you yeah, so if you look

1041
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 2: at like, if you accidentally have threads, it's gonna put

1042
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 2: this weird code thing on. I'm ready.

1043
00:57:57,680 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 3: That's so stupid.

1044
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 2: On your Instagram and I I thought that was really creepy.

1045
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 3: Far more people than I thought were on there, to

1046
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 3: be honest, and I was like, oh, and also automatic, because.

1047
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 2: It automatically enrolls you is the problem.

1048
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true. That's actually very true.

1049
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:16,040
Speaker 2: And then it does that weird thing where it puts

1050
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:19,120
Speaker 2: that code on your Instagram profile, which I find to

1051
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 2: be really weird to know. I am not on threads yet,

1052
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 2: but I am on threads, but I'm not on threads.

1053
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 2: And that's all I have to say about threads. We'll

1054
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 2: be back, motherfuckers. Sorry, I love you.

1055
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 3: Bye.

1056
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 2: I got what podcast I was on? Cool People Who

1057
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 2: Did Cool Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media.

1058
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 2: For more podcasts and cool Zone Media, visit our website

1059
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:44,959
Speaker 2: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1060
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.